LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF
Monday, March 1, 1993
The House met at 1:30 p.m.
PRAYERS
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
Mr. Speaker:
Pursuant to the authorities and practices of theHouse, I now report that
I have examined the petition and findthat the petitioners have not complied
with the set authoritiesand practices in the following respects.
According to our Rule 81.(8): "No petition shall be receivedif it
prays for expenditure, grant or charge on the publicrevenue, whether payable
out of the Consolidated Fund or out ofmoneys to be provided by the
Assembly."
Therefore, I regret to advise the
honourable member for SwanRiver (Ms. Wowchuk) that her petition is out of order
and cannotbe received.
TABLING OF REPORTS
Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural
Development): Mr.Speaker, first of all I would like to
table the Annual Report1991‑1992 for the Canada‑Manitoba
Partnership Agreement onMunicipal Water Infrastructure for Rural Economic
Diversification(PAMWI).
I would like to table the Annual
Report 1991‑92 for the
Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I wouldlike to table, firstly,
Volume 3, Public Accounts 1991‑92,Summary Financial Statements and,
secondly, the ManitobaHydro‑Electric Board Quarterly Report for the nine
months endedDecember 31, 1992, and the Report of the Provincial Auditor tothe
Legislative Assembly for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1992.
House Business
Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, the government, at this time,
would like to waive the two‑day noticeof motion, with the permission of
the House, and introduce fourbills at this time.
Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Iunderstand the government House
leader is asking for leave. Ithink we
already have a significant amount of business.
We would like to know when the
second reading committeehearings will be held on the Sunday shopping bill. After thegovernment has decided when they are
going to do that, we mightget down to the rest of the business‑‑
Mr. Speaker:
Order, please. Is there leave to
allow thehonourable government House leader to introduce said bills?
Some Honourable Members: No.
Mr. Speaker:
No. Leave is denied.
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and
Attorney General):Mr.
Speaker, I would request leave of the House to introduce Bill14, The Personal
Property Security Act and ConsequentialAmendments, for first reading.
Mr. Speaker:
Does the honourable Attorney General have leave?
Some Honourable Members: No.
Mr. Speaker:
No. Leave is denied.
* (1335)
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (
Mr. Speaker:
Is there leave to revert to Introduction of Bills?Leave? [agreed]
INTRODUCTION OF BILLS
Bill –210The Plain
Language Act
Ms.
Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Mr.
Speaker, I move,seconded by the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), that Bill
210,The Plain Language Act; Loi sur la langue courante, be introducedand that
the same be now received and read a first time.
Motion presented.
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Speaker, Bill 210, The Plain LanguageAct,
would see all consumer contracts and all governmentstatutes, regulations and
publications written in plainlanguage.
This legislation arises out of the growing concernthat many contracts,
laws and regulations are often unreadable,packed with legalese and written in
language that is hard tounderstand.
The absence of plain language, Mr.
Speaker, contributes to afear of the system and deters many from pursuing their
rights.This bill would make laws and legal documents understandable. Itwill help ensure people can comply with
their legal obligationsand obtain the benefits to which they are entitled. It will helpManitobans to clearly understand
the full intention of governmentactions without the help of a dozen lawyers,
and finally, it willhelp ensure fairness and equal access to the law for all of
ourcitizens.
Motion agreed to.
Introduction of Guests
Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the
attentionof honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us
thisafternoon forty Grade 9 students from the Chief Peguis JuniorHigh school. They are under the direction of Mr.
Barmeier. Thisschool is located in the
constituency of the honourable Ministerof Culture, Heritage and Citizenship
(Mrs. Mitchelson).
On behalf of all honourable members,
I would like to welcomeyou here this afternoon.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Budget
Child Anti-Poverty
Programs
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we haveraised the issue of child
poverty and its alarming rate ofincrease in the
Mr. Speaker, we have seen a series
of budget decisions fromthis Premier's (Mr. Filmon) government dealing with all
thosethree areas affecting the poor in
Further, Mr. Speaker, there was a
reduction in the socialwelfare benefits and health benefits last week of some
$3 millionout of a $20‑million fund that will affect again children
livingin poverty, particularly those with teeth that need care thatwill not get
it with the cutbacks of this provincial government.
I would like to know how these
budget decisions that havebeen announced by this Premier's government will
eradicatepoverty for children in our province.
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family
Services): Mr.Speaker, over the last three years, we
have announced a number ofinitiatives that have enhanced the social allowance
system in
We did make an announcement last
week that we felt we had tomake some adjustments to the benefits for social
allowancerecipients. We still have left
these benefits in place that arecomparable to what other provinces have. The adjustments arenecessary because of the
tremendous increase in the SocialAllowances line, some 65 percent over the last
three years.
Program Reduction
Criteria
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I wouldlike to again ask the
Premier (Mr. Filmon), whose comments werethat we will do these three things,
education, health care andsocial programs, to help eradicate child poverty,
everything hehas done in the last two months in terms of the budget
decisionshave been kicking the poorest in the teeth, have been kicking
thepoorest children in the teeth and those are the Tory prioritiesin this
province.
I would like to ask the Premier how
he, in his tough budgetdecisions, can square the choices that his government is
making.On the one hand they are increasing their revenues by tens ofmillions of
dollars with the undebated expansion of video lotteryterminals in the city of
How does the Premier square the
value system that comes intoplay in terms of making those kinds of budget
decisions on thepeople of
* (1340)
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family
Services): Mr.Speaker, the member referenced the fact
that governments have tomake choices.
Governments across this land are making choices.Every government in this
country is making those tough choices atthis time.
The member is making some reference
to Bill 70 which wasenabling legislation that was brought about through
therecommendations of the SARC committee.
This government consultedwith members from the City of
Mr. Doer: Mr.
Speaker, this is absolutely indefensible,indefensible to have the children in
poverty in this province interms of the
BudgetProgram Reduction
Criteria
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I would like to askthe Premier, in terms of his
commitment in this Chamber a yearago in eradicating poverty, how he can defend
having millions ofdollars going in grants in lieu of taxes for training to
placeslike Keystone Ford, $10,000; Kingswood Golf and Country Club,$9,000;
Linnett Graphics, $7,000; Wardrop Engineering, $10,000;lots of grants, Mr.
Speaker, millions of dollars in grants goingto corporations. At the same time, they are cutting the
benefitsto children living in poverty.
How does he defend this in theHouse?
Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, as the Minister ofFamily
Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) has indicated, there have notbeen cuts throughout
the years that we have been in government,and we have been in government for
almost five years. Duringthat period of
time, the Department of Family Services, andparticularly those lines that
pertain to Child and FamilyServices, daycare, to foster parents and so on, have
beenreceiving over that period on an annualized basis increases thathave
averaged in the range of 9 percent, over that period of timeof five years.
So we have not been reducing those
areas, that is No. 1.Number 2, Mr. Speaker, the grants that he talks about are
fortraining people for jobs. That is a
very key priority. That isabsolutely for
training. Not a nickel can flow without
thatmoney going to pay for training. So
when he talks about it, heis absolutely misleading the public. [interjection]
Yes,absolutely. This is, of course, the
problem that you have withNew Democrats, is that they are dishonest when they
talk aboutthese things. They will not
tell people the truth‑‑
Mr. Speaker:
Order, please.
Point of Order
Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, this isour first day back after
he recess, and I would have thoughtthat perhaps the Premier of all people might
have taken the timewhen we were in recess to assess the way we behave in this
House,and in particular not talk about dishonesty. I mean, coming fromthis government, its
actions, it is horrid for members of theopposition to take comments like that,
and I would like to askyou to have him withdraw that comment unequivocally.
Mr. Speaker: The honourable member does not have a point
oforder. The honourable Premier did not
refer to any specificmember.
The honourable First Minister, to
finish his response.
* * *
Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, it is that lack of honesty that,
ofcourse, has left the New Democrats in the position they are, withno
credibility. Every nickel of payroll tax
deduction is basedon the dollars that are spent on training of their employees
forjobs and that is exactly what we need in this province, is tohave well‑trained,
capable employees for the jobs that are therein our society.
The New Democrats speak out of both
sides of their mouths.On the one hand they say, spend more money on training;
they say,encourage the private sector to spend more money on training, andwhen
it happens they criticize it. Mr.
Speaker, they cannot haveit both ways and the public knows why they have a lack
ofcredibility in this province, and that is why they are where theyare.
* (1345)
Throne Speech
Education System
Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, the public knows thatthere is total
neglect of children in this province by thisgovernment. That is what they know, and nowhere has it
beenexemplified better than by the cuts by the Minister of Education(Mrs.
Vodrey) of 2 percent, not the 2 percent she announced, butthree, four, five,
six and higher cuts to divisions across thisprovince. All this, when in November in the throne
speech, thegovernment said, my government realizes that education andtraining
are the keys that unlock a world of opportunity and afuture of economic growth
and prosperity.
Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister of
Education, what hashappened to this world of opportunity and economic growth
andprosperity, and will the minister now admit that her governmenthas failed
only two months later to live up even to the wordsthat she included in the
throne speech?
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and
Training): Mr.Speaker, I reject entirely what the member
has said. Let me tellyou that this
government maintains its commitment to educationand its commitment to students,
and we are making sure throughwhat we have put forward and have offered to
school divisions interms of options that students and their programs will
beprotected.
Mr. Plohman:
Mr. Speaker, how can this minister reconcile hercallous actions now with
her position of December 2, '92, whenshe said:
I am very pleased with what this government has putforward in relation to
education in this throne speech,especially when the Antler River School
Division states, in thearea‑‑
Mr. Speaker:
Does the honourable member have a question?
The honourable member for Dauphin,
kindly put your questionnow, please.
Mr. Plohman: I
say, the failure at the school levels‑‑we seeincreased violence and
I have to ask this Minister of Education,how can she stand in her place in this
House when there are cutsbeing made right across this province, the many
divisions in theprovince, how can she reconcile the position she took in
thethrone speech only two months ago?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Speaker, first of all, I would remind themember that there is a
fiscal issue relating to all Canadiansthat this province is not immune to the
fiscal position and thatthis province has had to make some very difficult
decisions.Those are only the decisions that we are now asking school boardsto
make, and we expect that they will make them in good faith.
I would also like to remind the
member what I heard theLeader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) say in the Budget
Debate of1988, when he said if you are not willing to make the toughdecisions
today, you will not have the money to deliver theservices tomorrow.
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Mr.
Speaker: Order, please. Some things never change. Order,please.
The honourable member for Dauphin has the floor.
* (1350)
Mr. Plohman:
Mr. Speaker, she just admitted they are notdelivering the services.
I ask, how can this minister stand
in her place and defendthe economic mismanagement of this Minister of Finance
(Mr.Manness), total economic chaos which is the result of the cuts
ineducation? How can the minister
justify the position in light ofthis economic minister, this Minister of
Finance, who has failedtotally in regard to management of the economy in
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Speaker, again, I will remind the member of thefiscal position of
this country and this province and to say thatthis government has made every
attempt to make very fairdecisions, very fair decisions across government. We recognizethe importance of education, and
in doing so, we have maderecommendations to school divisions so that the
integrity ofprograms and the programming for children will be protected.
School Divisions
Budget Reduction Alternatives
Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, I have a question forthe
Minister of Education.
While performing major surgery to
our educational system,this government continues to pay lip service to the
importance ofeducation as we have seen in this House today. Not only have weseen the minister take a cut
at public school funding, but wehave seen her come up with unrealistic ideas
and suggestions toschool boards.
Can this minister enlighten the
House today as to whatoptions she has suggested to the school divisions that
have tocome to grips with these awful cuts?
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and
Training): Mr.Speaker, I did outline several options
which were put forward toschool divisions.
One was an option similar to the option thatwe in government have put
forward to our own employees. We
didsuggest that school divisions might look at work week reduction.In addition
to that, we have asked them to look at administrativecosts in the same way that
we in government have and to make surethat we protect the interests of children
in the classroom andcurrent programs.
Department of Education
and Training
Administration Budget
Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, can the minister tellus if she
will in fact be cutting her own administrative budget20 percent as she has
asked the school divisions to cut?
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and
Training): Mr.Speaker, that nformation will come forward
with the budget.
Education System
ReformReport
Tabling Request
Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, a final supplementaryfor the
Minister of Education.
Can the minister tell us and is the
minister prepared totable a framework to deal with educational reform? The MTS andschool trustees are waiting for
this. She indicated to us beforethat in
fact the process had been underway, but it was news tomost of the educational
officials and organizations.
Is she prepared to table that today,
or is her reform simplycut and slash?
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and
Training): Theprocess of educational reform has been
very important to us, andit is proceeding, Mr. Speaker, in a very organized
way. In thatorganized way we have had
focus groups, we have had discussionswith all of the representative groups in
education. We havespoken with the
teachers, the trustees, business, industry andthe MFL. We have made sure that in beginning to design
ourprocess of reform we have included all of the partners, includingthe public.
Pediatric Bed Closures
Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): My question is to the Minister ofHealth (Mr.
Orchard). On February 18, the head of
the minister'sown hand‑picked reform team, Bernard Blais stated, and I
quote:All bed closure decisions are made by the deputy minister and
theminister.
Now that this minister has
completely closed the children'sward at St. Boniface Hospital, which changed
from his originalannouncement that some beds would stay open and some day
surgerywould remain open, can the minister advise this House when andwhy he
made the decision to completely close the children's wardat St. Boniface
Hospital?
Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): I am very pleased towelcome my honourable
friend to the important position of criticin the ministry of Health, and I hope
that my honourable friendbrings to his responsibility on behalf of the New
DemocraticParty, some of the policy they might bring forward in terms ofhealth
reform. Possibly they might want to share
with us theprogressive initiatives in other provinces that they may or maynot
be familiar with.
I know that my honourable friend the
member for Kildonan (Mr.Chomiak) will approach his new responsibility with the
kind ofenthusiasm that he has shown in the past, and I hope, Sir, thathe does not
fall victim immediately to what I describe fondly asthe Leader's disease,
although he has fallen victim to thatalready, Mr. Speaker.
To qualify, so there is no
confusion, not my Leader'sdisease, the Leader of the Opposition's disease.
Point of Order
Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker,Beauchesne is very clear that
answers to questions should bebrief and relate directly to the matter raised.
If the minister wants to debate
health care policy in thisprovince we are more than willing anytime, anyplace,
but heshould not waste the time in Question Period and should answerthe
question raised by our new Health critic.
Mr. Speaker: I
would remind the honourable minister, thehonourable opposition House leader
does have a point of order,and I would ask the honourable minister to deal with
the matterthat is raised.
* * *
Mr. Orchard:
Indeed, and I certainly look forward to the NewDemocrats debating health
policy. It will be a refreshing changein
the five years I have been here.
Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend
asked the question when andwhy and what was the process around decision making
in terms ofconsolidation of all inpatient services for children in Winnipegto
the Children's Hospital. That decision
was made and wasannounced following recommendations from a number of
studygroups, including the Urban Hospital Council.
I want to indicate to my honourable
friend that the latestrecommendation which arrived on my desk approximately the
end ofNovember indicated that when government was consolidatingservices the
Urban Hospital Council recommended completeconsolidation of pediatric bed
services to the Children'sHospital.
* (1355)
Mr. Chomiak:
My supplementary to the same minister:
Will theminister at least consider keeping these beds open for a
periodof 18 months to two years to allow for a time period to find outwhether
the consolidation which would result in only onechildren's hospital being
available to 600,000 people?‑‑becauselast year on at least two
occasions, Health Sciences Centre wasovercrowded and St. Boniface was alerted
as a backup. We willhave no more backup,
Mr. Speaker.
Will the minister, at least in the
interim period, allow an18‑month to two‑year period to see if a
backup is in factnecessary?
Mr. Orchard:
Mr. Speaker, I know my honourable friend does notalways have all the
information before him, and certainly theopportunity to receive full and
complete information is notavailable, but I want to indicate to my honourable
friend thatone of the pieces of incorrect information that he may have
beenpredicating some of his observation on, the consolidation ofinpatient
services to Children's, is the fact that this was theplan as envisioned by
governments in planning the Children'sHospital since 1975. Now that is a long time to achieve a goalof
consolidation of pediatrics into one hospital, but it was theplan in 1975 and
will be expedited.
Mr. Speaker, I want to tell my
honourable friend that sincethe Children's Hospital opened to accept children
for inpatientservices in approximately 1982, a number of beds have never
beenopened at Children's Hospital. With
the complete confidence ofthe professionals, Dr. Aggie Bishop as head of pediatrics,
we areassured that we can provide the inpatient needs of children in
Mr. Chomiak:
Mr. Speaker, with all due respect to the minister,I just do not listen
to focus groups. We have been listening
tothe patients; we have been listening to the parents and thenurses.
Health Care System
Francophone Community
Services
Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): My final supplementary to theminister: Will the minister at least attend the public
forumbeing sponsored tonight by the Societe Franco‑Manitobaine andexplain
why his government is ignoring the community, is ignoringthe safety needs of
children and is ignoring the Francophonecommunity?
Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, it isregretful with the first
series of questions my honourable friendhas put out that he has not told the
exact truth. Now that againis a problem
my honourable friend had‑‑[interjection] Well, Ihope he tells the
truth‑‑
Mr. Speaker:
Order, please.
Point of Order
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I believe that the Minister of
Healthindicated that I am not speaking the truth. I object to that,and I am rising on a matter
of privilege.
Mr. Speaker: For
clarification, the honourable member did say heis up on a matter of privilege?
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I am asking that the
ministerapologize for indicating that my comments were dishonest.
Mr. Speaker: The honourable member does not have a point
oforder, but I would caution the honourable Minister of Health topick and
choose your words very, very carefully.
* * *
Mr. Orchard:
Mr. Speaker, I accept your caution.
Sir, that isthe caution that I am giving to the member for Kildonan,
becausein his preamble to the last question, he did not have his
factsstraight. We have not ignored the
Francophone community. Wehave not
ignored the concerns of children and families in
CN Rail
Employee Layoffs
Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, today we learned thatCN Rail has
announced that it will reduce its workforce by 10,000people over three years in
My question is for the Minister of
Highways andTransportation. Considering
the historical significance ofrailway jobs to the
Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and
Transportation):Mr.
Speaker, last year CN announced the potential layoffs of10,000 positions. Presently, they have 32,000 employees in
I got in touch with the senior
people from CN this morning.Just to clarify, based on the news release they had‑‑I
was notsure exactly what the impact would be‑‑and regretfully have
toconfirm the fact that there will be 350 actual layoffs at CN,plus there will
be 184 positions affected by a four‑day workweek. There will be another 62 that will be
affected byattrition reduction and cutback on summer hiring. Mr. Speaker,also, they have indicated a
further 323 positions that are goingto be laid off in western
What bothers me most is the fact
that
It is my intention to later today
meet with the president ofCN as well as the CEO to discuss the fairness aspect
of it, thatin the future, if there are going to be further reductions
takingplace, that we get dealt with in a fair way.
* (1400)
Mr. Reid: Mr.
Speaker, I thank the minister for making my pointfor me.
CN Rail
Retraining Programs
Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Will the Minister of Labour explain,since two
years ago I asked him and his department to intercedein this process of
retraining for these employees who are facinglayoff and for those who are now
finding themselves laid off,what his department, the Department of Labour, is
doing toprovide skills upgrading for the employees who are laid off andthose
who are now facing layoff and an uncertain future, Mr.Speaker? What actions is his department taking to
provide these‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please.
The question has been put.
Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, first ofall, I indicate to the
member for Transcona that the railwaysfall within the jurisdiction of Labour
Canada.
Having said that, there was a
particular concern that themember brought with respect to the trade certificates
of thosepeople working at the railroad in that they were not transferableto
other areas. At that time we put him
together with ourdirector of the Apprenticeship & Training branch and I
believeseveral of the officials from the unions who were involved todevelop a
plan that could be used to upgrade those skills. Iunderstand there were some complications and
difficulties in thatparticular process.
I indicate very clearly to him,
within the budgets and theavailable resources that I have in our department, we
are alwaysprepared to work with those groups to overcome thosedifficulties, but
again one of the major problems of course wasit being in federal jurisdiction.
Mr. Reid: Mr. Speaker, these employees are still waiting
forthis minister to act.
CN Rail
Retraining Programs
Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): My final supplementary is to theMinister of
Education.
Since the Department of Education
has anticipated that
What adjustment strategy does this
Minister of Educationhave, Mr. Speaker, to deal with this serious situation?
Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and
Transportation):Mr.
Speaker, I think the members in the House probably are wellaware that the
severance packages that the unions have negotiatedwith CN and CP are second to
none in this country. My biggestregret
is that these jobs are going to be lost because thepeople, by and large, who
will be laid off or terminated‑‑thereare tremendous severance
packages that they have worked out.
In fact, my understanding is that anybody
working eight yearsor longer will receive over 80 percent of their wages until
age65. They also have severance
packages. My understanding fromCN‑‑and
I am not defending CN's position. I am
just saying thatthe employees who are affected, by and large, are not the
oneswho are raising the biggest concern, because the unions havelooked after
their employees well in that regard.
CN has also assured us that they are
trying to look forplacement with these people.
A lot of the positions that arebeing lost are basically through
attrition. Mr. Speaker, I thinkCN itself
was looking to see whether they can place many of thesepeople aside from what
training they can get.
UniversitiesFunding
Reduction Impact
Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, since this governmentcame to
office they have worked steadily to transfer the costs ofeducation off the
government and onto the debt loads of studentsattending our universities and
colleges, and the trendcontinues. They
clawed back $2 million from the universities, a2 percent cut in the support
coming this year. They haveincreased the
fees to international students by more than 75percent.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the
Minister of Education avery simple question.
What will be the impact of all of thesedecisions on students currently
in programs at our universities?
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and
Training): Mr.Speaker, let me start with the failure to
flow the anticipatedfunds, and let me assure the House that was covered by
theuniversities with their surplus. In
fact, the universities stillretain a surplus therefore there was no effect on
students inthat regard.
Universities were only required to
share what otherManitobans have also had to share when anticipated funds did
notcome into
In terms of visa students, Mr.
Speaker, I can tell you thataction was taken to bring
Student Financial
Assistance
Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Perhaps this minister should do somefocus
group with students. Can the minister
assure this Housethat we will not be moving to a loans only program in student
aidthis year?
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and
Training): I can certainly tell the member I spend a
great deal of time withstudents and making sure that I speak to them and that
theirinterests are represented in the planning of this government. Ibelieve that is evident when we acted on
behalf of students andwe capped tuition at 5 percent this year.
Mr. Alcock:
Mr. Speaker, the question is a serious one. Canstudents expect the same level of grant
support this year as theyhave received in the past?
Mrs. Vodrey: The issues of student support are serious
ones. Ihave spoken with the honourable
member several times in terms ofthe
Universities
Quality of Education
Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Students in every survey and inevery interview
indicate that they are very concerned about thequality of the education that
they are receiving in
I want to ask the Minister of
Education, who has assuredManitobans that the quality of education in our
universities willnot suffer under the cuts she has proposed, could she tell
theHouse whether she measures quality in class size, in libraryservice, in lab
times and assistance, in counselling and guidanceservices, in the number of
assignments and evaluations, or doesshe have some definition of quality that
includes none of these,perhaps a focus group definition of quality? Will she tell ushow she intends to monitor
the quality of education in
* (1410)
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and
Training):Again,
the quality of education is the most important thing thatwe are dealing with in
terms of students on our K‑12 side,students on our post‑secondary
side, whether they are in ourcolleges or our universities or our training
programs.Therefore, when the announcement was made to the universities, wealso
made recommendations to the universities so that we couldpreserve programming
for students. We have asked universities,in
the same way we have asked ourselves in government, to look ata version of the
work‑week reduction so that any reductions willnot affect students and
student programming.
Budget Consultations
Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, the minister thinksthat reduction
in hours of the staff on services is not going toaffect students. I have no idea where she gets these
ideasfrom. I want to ask the minister in
fact where she does getthese ideas from.
Did she talk to students, faculty, parents,boards of governors or the
UGC? Who advised her that hermillion‑dollar
clawback and the reductions to universities nextyear will not affect the
quality of education, and will she tablethose opinions?
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and
Training): Mr.Speaker, let me
remind the member again. When the
decision wasmade to not flow the funds to universities, it was because therewas
an understanding that those universities did have surplusesand the shortfall
was covered by surpluses with surplusremaining.
In addition to that, in this announcement, as I havetold the member
already, we have asked the universities toexamine ways to not affect students
and to not affectprogramming. I would
wonder what the member is getting at.
Isshe asking us to continually increase on the backs of students sothat
others can continue to get increases while other Manitobanscontinue to take
reductions?
Capital Budgets
Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, will the ministerconfirm that, in
addition to the clawback, in addition to thecuts to next year's budget, she
intends to dramatically cut thecapital and renovations grants to the
universities as well?
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and
Training): Mr.Speaker, I informed the universities when I
met with them lastweek that the capital budget will be announced when the
budget isannounced in this House.
Social Assistance
Child Tax Benefit
Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, last year thefederal minister of
health and welfare met with his provincialcounterparts in
Can the Minister of Family Services
tell the House if heagreed in
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):
Mr.Speaker, I can tell the member that there
was a recognitionamongst the social services ministers across this country that
wehave to look at all of the programs that we have in place acrossthis country. I indicated in a previous answer that we have
seena 65 percent increase in the Social Allowances line over the lastthree
budgets. Other provinces, including
I would say to you that over the
last numbers of budgets in
Mr. Martindale: Mr. Speaker, unfortunately the minister
misses avery simple point, and that is, when the federal governmentimproves a
program, is the provincial government going topenalize people and cut it back?
Will the minister assure working
parents with children in thedaycare system that the new $500 child benefit will
be excludedas income so that children, and not his government, actually
dobenefit from this initiative and will not once again be penalizedby this
government's actions.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, I can say that if the
memberwishes to discuss daycare, this is an area of our budget that hasdoubled
over the last five years, and there is a tremendousamount of provincial
resources that flows into the daycaresystem.
The daycare system has been well served by the changesthat have taken
place.
Mr. Martindale: Once again, Mr. Speaker, the minister will
notanswer the question.
Does he agree with the Premier (Mr.
Filmon), who said onDecember 13, 1991, that his government would work co‑operativelywith
the federal government on any program designed to eradicatepoverty with respect
to children? If so, will he promise not
topenalize children and allow working parents to keep the child taxbenefit and not
claw it back through decreased child caresubsidies?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, in fact we have workedco‑operatively
with the constituents who access this department.
I say to the member that if you want
to understand therealities that are out there, I would suggest that you
lookcarefully at what Premier Bob Rae is saying these days about thetreatment
of social allowance recipients and the structuralchanges that we are going to
have to make in this country becauseof the tremendous increases in volume. I also would have himreference new‑President
Bill Clinton and the statements that hehas made on this.
I could tell you that the mood
across the country, with theministers of the social allowances department,
recognizes thatthere have to be fundamental changes in the system.
Manitoba Public
Insurance Corp.
Chairman's Salary
Increase
Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, Manitobans are inthe process of paying exorbitant increases in their Autopacpremiums even though they were misled by the Conservative Partyback in 1987 and 1988 that a Conservative government somehowmagically would roll