LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Wednesday, March 3, 1993

           

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

           

PRAYERS

           

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

           

TABLING OF REPORTS

 

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Sport):  Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the Annual Report 1991‑92 for the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission.

 

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

 

Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader):  Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might have leave of the House to introduce a bill for the Minister of Justice?

Mr. Speaker:  Does the honourable government House leader have leave to introduce a bill?

Some Honourable Members:  No.

Mr. Speaker:  No.  Leave is denied.

 

Bill 16‑The Public Schools Amendment Act

           

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik), that Bill 16, The Public Schools Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur les ecoles publiques, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time.

Mr. Speaker:  The honourable member's bill is on the notice paper, not on the order paper.  The honourable Madam Minister would need leave to introduce Bill 16.

            Does the honourable minister have leave to introduce Bill 16?

Some Honourable Members:  No.

Mr. Speaker:  No.  Leave is denied.

 

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

           

Special Needs Programs

Service Availability

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  House business is being managed like the finances of this province.

            Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier.  We were raising questions all this week about the impact of government decisions on kids and students in this province.

            Yesterday we learned, and we have had confirmation from parents and others, that specialists working with special needs kids in rural Manitoba have been told that they will be laid off at the end of June, some 66 staff working in hearing impairment issues, speech impairment, behavioural problems, working in rural Manitoba, have been told they will be laid off in the province of Manitoba.

            Mr. Speaker, I would like to know from the Premier what impact these layoffs will have on children with hearing impairments, with learning impairments, with behavioural impairments and impairments that are, unfortunately, germane to some kids in rural Manitoba that need special needs programs.

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, yes, it is true, a service that we have provided through our department for the past 20 years is now a very well‑established service.  It is well established within the divisions.  So what we have done is we now, through our funding formula, provide both the operating costs and also the administrative costs for school divisions to hire these clinicians within their own divisions.  It is simply a change in who employs these clinicians.

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, I would quote the minister from May 7 of 1992:  Due to the large number of students with speech and language problems, the service is stretched and follow‑up activities are not always as extensive as we would like them to be.

            These kids are the most vulnerable kids in rural Manitoba.  I was talking to parents today and they fear if the diagnostic services are not available, if the services on hearing impairments, on speech impairments, on behavioural impairments are not there at the earliest possible age, we will have these kids going through our social and economic systems for life and not have the head start or the opportunities that all of us may enjoy.

            I would like to ask the Premier how he can justify cutting back these services to special needs kids in the province of Manitoba?  Is that the priority of this government for the children of rural Manitoba?

 

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Mrs. Vodrey:  Mr. Speaker, I think it is important to give the member all of the information.  Nineteen school divisions presently provide this service.  Ten of those school divisions operate outside of the city of Winnipeg, including Mystery Lake School Division, including Frontier School Division.  So we do know that school divisions have accepted this model, have been operating in this model.

            Now we have that same concern for young people and their parents.  I would like to assure this House that there will still be the funds flowing through our funding formula to employ those specialists.  However, they will be employed at the local level at the school board level, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, I do not know how the Tories across the way could clap for a decision like that on the children of rural Manitoba.

            Mr. Speaker, there is a declining enrollment in school divisions of rural Manitoba.  Your funding formula, which of course has been cut back 2 percent since you made your announcement last year, school divisions will not be able to have the expertise for special needs kids.  They cannot hire one hearing impairment person, one behavioural person, one speech person in each school division across Manitoba.  That is why the smallest school divisions need this provincial program.

            I would like to ask the Premier to overrule his Minister of Education, to overrule the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) and his cutting back on special needs children in this province and maintain those services for all kids across Manitoba through their grants.

Mrs. Vodrey:  Mr. Speaker, let me say again that we have a strong belief that this service continue and because of that we have, through our funding formula, increased the grants for a clinician, increased the grants to $45,000.  We did that last year because we believed that the service was so important.  This year through this action, we are now saying to school divisions that they would become the employers, they would then have the control.

            Mr. Speaker, in terms of special needs let me also make it clear to the member that we increased our special needs funding last year, and this year through our announcement we have also increased the amount of money flowing into Level II and Level III grants to pay attention to those particular concerns and issues.

 

Distance Education

Employee Layoffs

 

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  Mr. Speaker, the minister knows very well that the services and the funding that she is providing is totally inadequate to meet the needs in rural Manitoba.  She knows that and she should not be attempting to mislead this House.

            Because of the cuts that this government has made over the last number of years and this year as well, which has resulted in the fact that there are no options available in many schools, classes are combined.  There are teachers teaching three and four classes in one classroom, different courses in one classroom. Because distance education is one of the only hopes for equality of opportunities in education in the small rural divisions, Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Education how she can justify the cutting of six positions from distance education, which is providing this only hope, this bridge, for rural small school divisions in Manitoba.

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Yes, we have made some rearrangements in our distance education for the purposes of a better delivery, because we have understood, Mr. Speaker, as a result of listening to Manitobans, that distance education should no longer just be a separate part of education but in fact should be an integral part of education, should be an integral part of our curriculum development and our service development.  That is what we have done.

Mr. Plohman:  Mr. Speaker, this minister did not answer the question, how she is justifying the cuts of six positions when she says in the Estimates, in her own words last year, that this was a priority and an expanding area.  How can she justify the cutting of six positions?

Mrs. Vodrey:  Mr. Speaker, the honourable member obviously did not hear me.  What I have said to him and to Manitobans is that this is a very important part of education in Manitoba.  In fact, we have had a task force working on this area.  We also have listened to Manitobans.  One message that we have received is that distance education is important and integral, and should be considered along with all of our education, both in K‑12 and in our post‑secondary area.  So we will be considering it in a holistic way with the other issues on our K‑12 side.

Mr. Plohman:  Mr. Speaker, since school divisions are telling this minister and telling us daily in communications and phone calls and letters that in fact the services to children are being affected by her draconian cuts, by her deep cuts in education, I want to ask this minister:  Will she now admit to this House and to the people of Manitoba that in fact the services to children are in fact being impacted in a negative way, and will she now admit that this has been acceptable for her right from the beginning in her decision making?

Mrs. Vodrey:  Mr. Speaker, again let me say, services to children are of utmost importance for this department, and because services to children are so important, within our funding formula this year we did what we said.  We modified that funding formula, we adapted the funding formula.  We did so particularly out of interest to children who need support for extreme behavioural and emotional disorders and hearing impaired children.  We increased the funding to make sure that was available for the children of this province.  We have also said, as school boards consider their budgeting process this year, to please look at areas of budgeting that do not affect children and programs.

 

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Education System Reform

Program Development Support Services

 

Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood):  Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education.

The minister has told us in this House that she is interested in education.  She has told us that she is engaged in a reform process, yet every day we see actions which belie any leadership and any real reform initiatives.  Today we hear that program development support services will be decimated.  Over 50 staff years will be gone, and services will be cut.

            Will the minister explain to this House how this decision fits into her education reform, a reform which to date is illusionary?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, let me say first of all that the Child Care and Development branch will not be decimated, that it will continue to support school divisions.  It will provide for school divisions supervision for those clinicians whom they hire, that supervision that is very important for clinicians to get their certification.  We will also continue to monitor the ADAP or the special education plans.  We will also continue to act as consultants.  We will also assist those school divisions in their hiring process.  If they would like some assistance in the hiring process, then we are more than prepared to do that.

            In answer to the reform part of the question, Mr. Speaker, I have answered that this afternoon.  We have understood that in some areas, and I will use distance education as a very specific example, that distance education is no longer seen as a separate part of education.  In the process of reform, we are moving to integrate it into education in Manitoba.

 

Report Tabling Request

 

Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood):  We have no difficulty with this government embarking on reform in education.  Will the minister take a page out of her colleague the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) and take some time and actually write a document that talks about education reform?

            Mr. Speaker, education officials, people concerned about education in Manitoba, want to know what the reform process is. Is the minister prepared‑‑

Some Honourable Members:  Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member for Crescentwood, your question, please.

Ms. Gray:  This is a serious issue because education officials want to know what the education reform plan is.  It is not enough for the minister to stand in this House and spout out sentences. We want to see a reform plan, a blueprint.  Will she table that document?

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member has put her question.

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  I think it is important to remind my honourable friend again that the education officials have been involved in the process as we move into educational reform, that we have made sure that their views of what reform should look like, how that reform should be accomplished, have been integrated and that we have taken a great deal of time to work with those groups.

            We have worked with parents in Manitoba to make sure that the views of parents are considered, the views of labour and business and industry, so that the goals of education and the accomplishments of education are also views that they would like us to consider, too.

Ms. Gray:  The Minister of Education asks that we listen to her. We ask that she listen to what education officials are saying in Manitoba.  They know nothing about this reform process that is going on.  She is pitting rural school division against urban school divisions.

Mr. Speaker:  Question, please.

Ms. Gray:  Is she prepared to table a document to let us know what type of education reform she has planned rather than just slashing and cutting‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member has put her question.

Mrs. Vodrey:  I certainly reject any suggestion of rural and urban school divisions having to compete for attention to listen.  I have made an attempt to visit personally as many school divisions as possible.  I have made sure that I have met with their executive groups and have taken into consideration how they would like reform to look.

            Mr. Speaker, what my honourable friend seems to say is that she would in her own mind develop a document, then put it out and then say to people this is what it should be, but we have in fact taken a much different tactic.  We have taken the time to listen to what the goals of that reform might be to then put together the goals of reform, and as we announced in the throne speech, we are moving towards the education innovation forum, where the process of reform can be discussed.

 

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Health Care System Reform

Pediatric Surgery Restrictions

 

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):  My question is for the Minister of Health.

            The minister's own action plan talks about moving treatment from more expensive facilities to less expensive facilities.  The minister's own plan on page 15 says that teaching hospitals cost $775 per day while treatment at a community facility could be for $410 per day.

            Why is this minister dictating that all children's surgery in the city of Winnipeg, almost up to 3,000 procedures a year, must be carried out at the four or five operating rooms at the Children's Hospital?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  My honourable friend also might acknowledge that within the process of health care reform, we have indicated that the direction for the urban hospitals and the teaching hospitals is establishment of centres of excellence.

            Mr. Speaker, I would like to claim the original credit for establishing Children's Hospital conceptually and developing it as a centre for excellence for inpatient care for children, but unfortunately that has been a policy of successive governments since 1975.  Sir, that is what is being accomplished with this consolidation.

            That consolidation of inpatient services, including surgery, including medical needs for inpatient care of children in Manitoba, is being consolidated at the Children's Hospital for two reasons:  first of all, Sir, they have the ability and the finest expertise in Manitoba to provide for the most complex needs of children in Manitoba‑‑surgical and medical; secondly, by maintaining pediatric departments in a number of other hospitals, inpatient is a duplication of resource at a time of constrained resources, and it makes not only program sense but very good economic sense to consolidate the Children's Hospital.

Mr. Chomiak:  Mr. Speaker, perhaps the minister can clarify since there is so much confusion out there, will the minister advise this House, contrary to what is being said by the head of his health reform, that outpatient surgery for children will also be consolidated at the Health Sciences Centre?  What is it?  Will outpatient surgery also be consolidated or not?

Mr. Orchard:  I am quickly thumbing through my book, Mr. Speaker, because if I can just find‑‑well, I cannot find the direct quote.

            My honourable friend the new critic for Health, and the New Democrats, would do himself well to make more corrections of false impressions that he has left on the airwaves, as he did yesterday, to his credit, Sir, where he stepped out of this House and said, yes, emergency services for children will continue at St. Boniface Hospital and other services.

            He did not say that when he alarmed the people of Manitoba by saying the St. Boniface Hospital would be closed to all children's services.

            Sir, that would leave families who wish to access emergency and postoperative care the wrong impression.  It might compromise their ability to receive emergency care at St. Boniface and other community hospitals if they believed the words that my honourable friend misinformed the public with some three weeks ago.

            Sir, inpatient services are consolidated to the Children's Hospital.  That means admissions of children to hospital beds, but outpatient services will continue in most, if not all, of the locations currently, including St. Boniface, Victoria‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

Mr. Chomiak:  I have one more supplementary.  Mr. Speaker, I am thankful the minister finally clarified the distinction that one side of his department was saying one thing and he is saying the other.  He has clarified now what the question is.  I hope he will tell the head of his health care reform.

            My final supplementary to the same minister, Mr. Speaker, is:  Will the minister also clarify, since we are at this and since his own health reform head will not be able to clarify this for members of the public, will 15‑ and 16‑year‑olds now be considered adults or children for purposes of admission for surgery, because we are told that 15‑ and 16‑year‑olds will now be admitted as adults because they cannot accommodate all the children at the Health Sciences Centre?

 

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Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, I guess I have problems with my honourable friend because coincidentally the other day, when he was having yet another press conference on this issue of service consolidation‑‑and I note with interest that the Premier‑‑no, well, a member of the cabinet that made the decision to conceptualize the Children's Hospital as a centre of excellence is in the gallery today‑‑1975, yes.

            I fully acknowledge, Mr. Speaker, that when New Democrats are in government they sometimes get things right, but when they are in opposition they seldom do.  I recognize that.  I fully recognize that.  Let me tell my honourable friend that he should seek advice from Dr. Aggie Bishop, head of the Children's Hospital, who, after the press conference he held saying it was going to be a disaster, spoke to reporters and others outside in the hall saying, look, we can accommodate inpatient services for children in Manitoba very, very reasonably, effectively, with quality, with patient care, with love and with the needed care being met, Sir.

 

Post‑Secondary Education

Grant and Bursary Assistance

 

Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne):  Mr. Speaker, in the last full academic year that has been reported on, fully 30 percent of the students at the University of Manitoba received some sort of financial support, 50 percent of the students at the University of Winnipeg and 70 percent of the students at Brandon University.

            I would like to ask the Minister of Education one simple question.  Why is she moving to a loans‑only program and increasing the debt load of the 2,700 students who received some grant and bursary assistance in this province last year?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, presently, as the member knows, the system is Canada student loan first and then Manitoba supplements the Canada student loan.  That has been the process within this province. There are changes that are expected on the Canada student loan side, and we are looking forward to seeing what the federal government will do on that side.

            In terms of any changes which we might then move to within our provincial government, the member will have to wait until the budget to see what that will be.

Mr. Alcock:  Mr. Speaker, what I want this minister to do is to give the students of this province an assurance that they will have the same level of grant and bursary assistance in the coming year that they have in the current year.

Mrs. Vodrey:  Mr. Speaker, I speak to the students of this province.  I had them into my office yesterday as well.  May I say, at that time they were very pleased that this government has capped tuition fees at 5 percent.

            In terms of any further assurances, Mr. Speaker, they will have to wait until the budget is brought down in this House.

Mr. Alcock:  Mr. Speaker, this government has increased student fees at the universities by over 80 percent since they came into office, and another 5 percent increase is inconsistent with the cuts that they are making at the other facilities.

 

Universities

Capital Assistance

 

Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne):  I would like to know, from the minister, why she has chosen not to provide any capital assistance to the universities in the coming year.

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, in the announcement that I made last Thursday to the universities, I announced their operating funds.  I told them, at that time, that the announcement regarding capital would occur at the time that the budget comes down in this House.

            I would like to remind the member that, by and large, university funding is not usually announced as early as this time and before the budget, but the universities did ask this year to please note, where possible, their operating grants.  That was an important request from them.  This government listened to their request.  We were able to oblige in the operating.  The capital will come with the budget announcement in this House.

 

Social Assistance

Health Benefits

           

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows):  Mr. Speaker, last week the Minister of Family Services announced yet another attack on the poor when he cut health benefits by $3 million.  At the same time the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), in the same government, was negotiating a contract with a consultant in the range of $4 million to $6 million.

            Can the Minister of Family Services explain why this cut was made at all, a cut which affects low‑income people, those who have the least ability to pay for their own optical, their own dental, their own medical expenses?  Why has he eliminated coverage, especially for procedures like root canals?

 

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Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, I indicated last week, when we discussed this, that we have had a 65 percent increase in the funding for social allowances over the last three budgets.  As a result of that call on public money, we have had to make some adjustments to benefits to social allowance recipients, which still leaves them more than adequate coverage, certainly much better than citizens of this province receive who are regarded as being the working poor and others.

            The delay that we have put into place is the same delay that civil servants respect when they come onto the job and that private plans have as well.  So in order to preserve a system, we have had to make some adjustments to it and those adjustments were announced last week.

 

Retraining Programs

 

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows):  Mr. Speaker, has the Minister of Family Services or his staff studied the issue of improving or making changes to the work incentive for people on social assistance, and if so, what did those studies show?  Is the government prepared to make any changes there, especially progressive changes to encourage people to get off social assistance and get into the workforce?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, the member raises I think a critical issue that is facing governments across North America, and I know in discussions with the member he is aware that the Premier of Ontario was talking about going to a form of workfare in that province.

            We spend something like $12 million on programs for social allowance recipients and moving them into the workforce.  Part of the difficulty, of course, is the difficulty of finding jobs for people without the appropriate skills.  This is a challenge that I think we as government will be looking at in the coming months and years, and one that all governments are looking at, is how to use those funds to get people back to work.  I can tell you in discussing this with my colleagues across the country who are responsible for social allowance programs, this is an area that needs reform and we are looking very carefully at what other provinces are doing.

             

Work Incentives

 

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows):  Will the Minister of Family Services give serious consideration to improving the work incentives since there are many people who are willing to work? For example, working as enumerators in the referendum last fall, one individual earned $500, was only allowed to keep $50.  People need a positive incentive.  It could be built into the system so that people are able to keep a much greater percentage of their earnings instead of having them taxed back, effectively at the rate of 100 percent.  No one in this country pays taxes at the rate of 100 percent except people on social‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, certainly the member is aware of the tremendous number of reforms that we have brought in in the last two years, very supportive.  I think of the change in the liquid assets test and the head of household changes.  There are other reforms that we are looking at.

 

Manitoba Public Insurance Corp

No-Fault Auto Insurance

 

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East):  I have a question for the minister responsible for MPIC.  Manitobans continue to be very angry and concerned about the excessively high Autopac premium increases that they see under this government.  They see a government that is doing absolutely nothing to keep the cost down.  In answer to my question of March 1, Mr. Speaker, on the outrageous 75 percent increase given to the new chairman of the board of MPIC, the minister replied that they are looking at, and I am quoting from Hansard, "some very serious changes in the MPIC program," and he went on to infer that Autopac 2000 is coming forward.

            Mr. Speaker, will the minister advise, does this mean that this government is now finally prepared to establish the pure no‑fault system as recommend very strongly by Judge Kopstein?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act):  Mr. Speaker, I was not making any announcements, but I think the member should not rise from his place and try to ignore the fact that he was part of the administration that was looking at a 30 percent increase.

 

Cost Efficiencies

 

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East):  Mr. Speaker, if the minister will not implement a no‑fault system, can he explain to the people of Manitoba how he and his government expect to keep costs from escalating in the future as they have done in the past?  In fact, rates have risen year after year under this government. People are very annoyed, very concerned.  What is this government going to do to keep costs from rising in the future?

            Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act):  Mr. Speaker, we have indicated, and I have indicated very publicly on a number of occasions, that we are looking at all aspects of the Autopac coverage that is required by law in this province.  We are also assuring ourselves, through the corporation, that the operations are efficient.  We will be doing a number of things within the responsibility of the corporation.  The corporation is actively pursuing some options today which will, in due course, be presented.

Mr. Evans:  It is still regrettable that Judge Kopstein, who recommended a system that would have reduced Autopac premiums by 21 percent, is being ignored, Mr. Speaker.

 

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No-Fault Auto Insurance

 

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East):  My final supplementary to the minister is:  Has this minister received any representation in the past few months from the Manitoba Bar Association, or any group representing the legal profession, in opposition to a no‑fault system, since such a system will reduce litigation costs substantially by tens of millions of dollars?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act):  Mr. Speaker, I do not believe I have received any communication from the Bar Association recently.  I certainly received some a number of years ago.  I have also received representation from the Manitoba Society of Seniors.  I saw representations that they have made regarding their concerns.

 

Labour Force Adjustment Strategy

Tabling Request

 

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster):  Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour.

            The labour force in the province of Manitoba has been going through a major shift in the manufacturing industry.  We have seen the loss of over 10,000 jobs since this government has taken office.  We see, in terms of retraining and training programs, that this government has been taking a reactive approach in addressing the needs of the workers for today and tomorrow.

            My question, Mr. Speaker, is for the minister.  I would ask: When will he table a detailed plan on the labour force adjustment that will put Manitobans back to work now and prepare them not only for now but also for the future?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour):  Mr. Speaker, as the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey) has indicated several times in this House, the work that is now going on with the Canada‑Manitoba agreement, which includes the Apprenticeship and Training branch of this department, and the co‑ordination of a host of training programs across this province is now underway, and we are working towards concluding that agreement.

            I would point out to the member opposite that over the years, through various administrations in this province, both federal and provincial governments have built a host of programs often duplicating each other.  Now, over the last while, myself, the Minister of Education and the cabinet of this province have been working with our federal colleagues to sort that out and give direction to it.  So that should be moving along shortly.

Mr. Lamoureux:  Mr. Speaker, it is interesting he points to the Minister of Education.  I am aware of a student at Red River College who made application for the industrial electronics course and was told that in fact there is up to a two‑year waiting list and then in January was told that he could come up on March.  Now he has been told that in fact he might have to wait till September because of the budget and potentially the course being cancelled completely, and he quit his job for it.

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  Question, please.

 

Labour Force Adjustment Strategy

Department Co-ordination

 

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster):  My question is:  When will the minister take steps to ensure that there is a collaboration between departments so that training and retraining programs are co‑ordinated in their efforts to put Manitobans back to work?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, first of all, I would just like to address the innuendo that the honourable member has raised in this House regarding courses.  There has been no announcement yet.

            For the student and the individual case, I am happy to look at that particular student's case, but one of the difficulties that Red River College will be correcting in the upcoming academic year is to look at those waiting lists, because waiting lists in the past have included the same person's name several times.  We are now looking at making those waiting lists much more accurate so that then we know exactly what the intended enrollment will be at the colleges.

            In terms of working with my colleagues for a labour market strategy in this province, I would like to say that there are two working groups.  In fact, there is a working group that is working within departments.  There is also a working group that is working among departments and those departments include the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik).  They also include my colleague the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Mitchelson), I T and T.  So we have been very inclusive in developing a labour market strategy in this province.

Mr. Lamoureux:  Mr. Speaker, then can the minister explain to me why the registration fee would be accepted and then the course be cancelled?  That is not innuendo.  That is, in fact, what has happened.

Mrs. Vodrey:  Mr. Speaker, as my honourable colleague first stated the case, he stated a proposed change.  So he would have to present to me the specifics of the individual involved and, of course, I will be more than happy to look at those specifics should he present them to me.

 

Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Co.

Older Worker Adjustment Strategy

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  Mr. Speaker, while all of northern Manitoba is suffering under the lack of economic leadership by this government, the community of Snow Lake and‑‑[interjection] The Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) knows full well that the Minister of Energy and Mines bungled the Hydro contract.  In the communities of Snow Lake and Flin Flon, as a result of five mine closures and two mill closures over a 30‑month period, some 490 workers are going to be laid off.

            Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Labour.  Can the Minister of Labour explain to the House why, after receiving a copy of a letter dated October 6 from the employment and personnel administrator in Flin Flon at Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting, asking the government to begin to establish a program for older worker adjustment, the Province of Manitoba as of a week ago had provided no response and no leadership on an issue that affected as many as 120 older workers in Flin Flon and Snow Lake?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour):  Mr. Speaker, first of all, I would remind the honourable member for Flin Flon that the Department of Labour through our Labour Adjustment unit has been working very closely with the community committee in the town of Snow Lake on a host of adjustment issues of which POWA is one. We have a staff person who has been assigned to that community working with them.  He has been in Snow Lake, travelled there on many occasions to work with the committee and the conclusion of potentially a POWA application is part of that whole process.

            I would remind the member for Flin Flon, the terms of the POWA agreement are fairly restrictive.  Before even a candidate would be eligible for consideration, they would have to be out of work for at least a year.  So it is not as if there is an issue today that has not been acted on.  That process is part of the adjustment process in which we have a staff dedicated and assigned to the Snow Lake community, as the member well knows.

Mr. Storie:  Mr. Speaker, the minister did not answer the question.  The question was why has the government not responded.

            Can the minister tell the people of Flin Flon and Snow Lake, who obviously are anxious about their jobs and their future, whether in fact the provincial government will be supporting a program for older worker adjustment for the Flin Flon and Snow Lake layoffs that are underway?

Mr. Praznik:  If I understand the member correctly, I believe he is referring to the POWA program, the program for older worker adjustment, where in essence the federal and provincial governments buy an annuity for an individual, I believe over 55 years of age, who is not able to be retrained, but the criteria for that particular agreement is extremely restricted.

            I would say to the member, before you can ask whether or not a government would support that application, we are not even sure whether or not there (a) will be any applicants who will qualify, or whether the community will qualify, but I can tell him that we have staff assigned who have been working through the Labour Adjustment Committee in the process, which is the route to go, and that has been ongoing since the initial announcements from Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting.

Mr. Storie:  Mr. Speaker, the minister has not even read the letter.  The chairperson of the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Worker Adjustment Committee identified in his letter that there were 122 people who would be eligible, or he believed would be eligible.

            My question is a simple one:  Will the government of Manitoba at least be supporting the establishment of a program for older worker adjustment for the Flin Flon, Snow Lake layoffs which are going to decimate the communities?

Mr. Praznik:  Mr. Speaker, because the president of Hudson Bay‑‑in fact, this must be the first time that the New Democrats have accepted the word of a president of a mining company holus‑bolus without judging it against criteria.

            Mr. Speaker, there are criteria by which that program operates.  One of them is that those individuals are not eligible or have not been able to be retrained within a year of being laid off.  If they are eligible, we will consider that application.

            I have to say this to him, that the process is underway. This department has assigned staff to that process, but if he is asking me for a commitment here today, whether we do not even know if this layoff will be eligible, that would just be silly.

 

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Crow Benefit

Government Position

 

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River):  Mr. Speaker, cuts by this department are having a devastating effect on rural Manitoba, and other decisions that they are taking are causing much uncertainty.  Last year they participated in the transportation talks dealing with the method of payment, the subsidy paid for the transportation of grain.  Even though farmers voted overwhelmingly in favour of keeping the system the way it is, this government continues to participate with the federal government to push on this matter.

            I want to ask the Premier to state very clearly his government's position.  Does he feel the payment should stay as it is, or are they supporting the idea that the payment should be changed to the farmers?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, as the member knows, we in the economy of Manitoba, the economy of Canada, the economy of the world are under tremendous pressure.  There are forces out there of change that are rather large, that are causing all of us to take a look at every opportunity to increase investment, to increase job creation and to ensure that we can strengthen our economic base.  That is true of every area of the economy, including agriculture.

            Of course, we are going to want to be open‑minded, to look at all opportunities to increase the value of our production, to increase the revenues to our individual producers and to ensure that we do not ignore any opportunity for economic growth in our farm community.