LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Friday, March 12, 1993

 

The House met at 10 a.m.

     

PRAYERS

 

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

 

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

 

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema), and it complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

      The petition of the undersigned residents of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

      WHEREAS the principles of health care, namely the universality and comprehensiveness, should apply to the Pharmacare program; and

      WHEREAS the Pharmacare program's effectiveness is being eroded; and

      WHEREAS in the most recent round of delisting of pharmaceuticals, approximately 200 have been delisted by the government of Manitoba; and

      WHEREAS the strict submission deadline for Pharmacare receipts does not take into consideration extenuating circumstances which may have affected some people; and

      WHEREAS pharmaceutical refunds often take six weeks to reach people; and

      WHEREAS a health "smart card" would provide information to reduce the risk of ordering drugs which interact or are ineffective, could eliminate "double prescribing," and could also be used to purchase pharmaceuticals on the Pharmacare program, thereby easing the cash burden on purchasers.

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly urge the government of Manitoba to consider taking the necessary steps to reform the Pharmacare system to maintain its comprehensive and universal nature, and to implement the use of a health "smart card."

 

TABLING OF REPORTS

 

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship):  Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the report from the Manitoba Arts Council for the year 1991‑1992.

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture):  I would like to table the Annual Report of Manitoba Agriculture 1991‑92.

Mr. Speaker:  I am also tabling the statutory report of the Chief Electoral Officer on the conduct of the September 15, 1992, by‑elections in the electoral divisions of Crescentwood and Portage la Prairie.

 

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

 

North American Free Trade Agreement

Government Action

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Premier.

      We have been concerned on this side about the proposed and signed, initialled, Canada‑U.S.‑Mexico Free Trade Agreement for some time.

      We know this will affect jobs in the apparel industry in Manitoba.  We know it will affect jobs in the generic drugs, notwithstanding the Minister of Health's (Mr. Orchard) statement on this matter. [interjection!

      If the Minister of Health wants to give us honest answers in this House, it would be better than his statement.

      I withdraw my comments.

Mr. Speaker:  I would like to thank the honourable Leader of the Opposition.

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, NAFTA is a very important issue to this province.  The labour standards issue has been raised and opposed by this provincial government.  The lack of any environmental standards has been raised and opposed by this Conservative government, yet we see the federal Conservative government planning on passing and ratifying the NAFTA agreement.  At the same time, the American trade representative, Mickey Kantor, the trade secretary, is saying they are not going to pass it in its present form.  The many Congress people of the United States are saying they are not going to pass NAFTA in its present form, if they are going to pass it at all.

      I would like to ask the government:  What action is it going to take to stop the federal Conservative party from passing an agreement that may not even be an agreement and certainly is not an agreement in terms of the best interests of Manitoba?

* (1005)

Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier):  Mr. Speaker, I find it somewhat strange that the Leader of the opposition party, in his questioning and concern about dealing with Mexico under the NAFTA agreement, sits with a member in his caucus who, when he was responsible for McKenzie Seeds, the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) spent several days, if not weeks, trying to promote trade with McKenzie Seeds and Mexico when they were in government, somewhat contrary to the discussions and the positions that the New Democratic Party is putting forward today.  I can provide additional information if the member would like that.

      Until the negotiations on labour and environmental standards are dealt with and enforced and adjustment programs are put in place as far as the labour force is concerned, this province's position has been one of not agreeing to proceed until those factors are looked after, Mr. Speaker.  That has been our position.  We have tabled a document which clearly expresses the position of this government, and it stands.

Mr. Doer:  I ask the government what action it would take to put into play the document that they tabled in this House.

      Mr. Speaker, we now have a situation where the federal Conservative Party of Canada, under the guise of the federal government, is going to proceed to ratify a trade agreement on the basis of electoral considerations to try to get this issue behind them before June.

      Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, at the same time‑‑or fortunately, in my belief‑‑the United States is going to renegotiate this agreement, and we in fact could be ratifying an agreement that is not even in place after the Americans and, potentially, the Mexicans change it.

      Mr. Speaker, what action is this Conservative government going to take to get the federal Conservative government to stop their electoral timetable and oppose this trade agreement for Manitobans and stop them passing this agreement and ratifying it by June of 1993?

Mr. Downey:  Mr. Speaker, unlike the New Democratic Party which is all over the map when it comes to trading and political posturing for their own political benefit‑‑I want them to get sincere‑‑this government's position is consistent.  It has been put forward in a consistent, well‑thought‑out and planned manner.  There has been ongoing communication and discussion with the federal government.  They well know our position, and if there are further activities that are going to be taken, I will report them to the member.

      Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding as well that the Industry and Trade ministers will be meeting in the near future to discuss some of the issues which are on the minds of those individuals.

Some Honourable Members:  Oh, oh.

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, we are proud of the fact that the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) saved the privatization and sale of McKenzie Seeds when Sterling Lyon and that minister were part of the government in 1978.

      Mr. Speaker, it is hard for us to take lectures from the Deputy Premier opposite when on the one hand he says he is opposed to the Tory federal trade agenda and on the other hand he breaks bread with the Prime Minister at Tory fundraising events.

 

Motor Coach Industries

Job Relocation

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, there is a parent company that is now holding the shares in Motor Coach Industries, that has bought a new plant in Mexico for purposes of bus manufacturing.  There is investment speculation that Motor Coach Industries jobs could be relocated under this change in investment strategy, and there are close to 1,000 to 1,500 employees working in the province of Manitoba with 75 percent of their sales in North America.

      Can the government advise us of the status of that change in investment with the parent company and the status of those very, very important manufacturing jobs in the province of Manitoba?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, we are in ongoing contact with Motor Coach.  There is nothing to substantiate any suggestion that jobs will be transferred out of Manitoba, out of Winnipeg.

      They do have an investment proceeding on urban bus manufacturing, I believe, in Mexico.  We also have an arrangement with Motor Coach here in Manitoba, a research and development agreement whereby the province is providing some funding.  In fact, it goes back I think to the days of the previous government, in terms of R & D work on the development of an additional bus here in the province of Manitoba, some $35‑million research and development project.

      Mr. Speaker, we have absolutely no indication that the decision of Motor Coach and the parent company to make an investment in Mexico will have any detrimental impact here in Manitoba.

* (1010)

 

Consolidation of Health Services

Justification

 

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):  Mr. Speaker, for some time, we on this side of the House have been critical of what the government is doing regarding children's services at hospitals.  Not only are we hearing different statements from the minister, but different statements from his own department.

      Today another doctor went public with his concerns about the minister's handling of children's services.

      Can this minister table the studies that justify his decision to move all children's services to one hospital, and to justify his claim that it will improve the care of children and decrease costs?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, yes, I can provide my honourable friend with a number of the discussions that have taken place.  First of all, my honourable friend might recall that the Urban Hospital Council, which represents all of the hospitals in Winnipeg, agreed to the pediatric consolidation at Children's Hospital in November of last year.

      My honourable friend maybe plays a little quick with his allegations as to what is behind the decision making.  This decision was not taken lightly.  It was recommended and agreed to at the Urban Hospital Council, No. 1.

      Number 2, my honourable friend might do himself very well to speak to the head of Children's Hospital, Dr. Aggie Bishop, and understand the kind of development around program to make this consolidation happen.

      Furthermore, my honourable friend might try to avoid confounding his researchers who immediately start to question what he says publicly when he says that St. Boniface Hospital will close completely to children, which is the kind of allegation that leads to phone calls in my office to understand what is going on and confusion in the general public.

      Before my honourable friend makes accusations which are not accurate, which do a disservice to children and their families, maybe he should take time to talk to Dr. Agnes Bishop, head of Children's Hospital, to understand how the program can and will work.

Mr. Chomiak:  Mr. Speaker, I guess responsibility for these decisions has been abdicated to Agnes Bishop over at Children's Hospital.

      Mr. Speaker, the minister's own interim urban council recommended that the pediatrics at St. Boniface stay open.  Why is the minister consolidating all children's care to Children's Hospital when Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Prince Albert, Regina, Saskatoon, Hamilton, London, Thunder Bay and Toronto all have children's beds in other than one consolidated hospital?

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, I cannot answer for those cities, other than the fact that they may not have the opportunity, the size and the excellence of facility that we have in Manitoba, something that was planned since 1975, which has been part of several changes, in governments, in terms of the consolidation to the stage where today all of the pediatric inpatient services, surgical and medical, can be met at one facility, with all the ensuing excellence of program capability.

      Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend very quickly said an interim report from the Urban Hospital Council recommended the potential for certain beds to remain at St. Boniface General Hospital.  What my honourable friend did not mention to those who are listening is that the final recommendation of the Urban Hospital Council was to make a complete consolidation, and that recommendation was made at the end of November last year and duly announced.

      If my honourable friend wants to talk about interim recommendations, maybe my honourable friend would have the integrity to deal with the final recommendation, which was, Sir, complete consolidation.

Mr. Chomiak:  I would like to ask the minister how he can justify moving surgery beds from community hospitals which by the minister's own action health plan cost in the neighbourhood of $400 per day, to the Health Sciences Centre which by the minister's own action plan cost over $700 a day.  How is that justified on an economic basis, or should I phone Aggie Bishop to find that out?

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend would certainly be a lot wiser on the issue than he has been if he did phone Dr. Bishop.  I know that my honourable friend is fearful of change, fearful of facts and fearful of opportunity to make the system better.

      Mr. Speaker, let me deal with my honourable friend's concern about costs in terms of this circumstance, because it seems as if now my honourable friend is fixed on costs.  It has been he has tried to make a case on quality of care which cannot be made; now he seems to be switching to costs.

      Mr. Speaker, over the 10 years that Children's Hospital has been operating, significant levels of service have moved from the community hospitals to Children's Hospital because of excellence of program.  It has left the circumstance where you have children's wings in a number of our hospitals occupied at 35 percent and less.  That, Sir, is not an effective use of program resource, nor the opportunity to promote program excellence. Both cases are being met in this circumstance.  My honourable friend would do himself well to stop misleading the public on this and get on with the reform and change‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

* (1015)

 

Clinician Hiring School Division Costs

 

Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood):  Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education.  In this House the minister stated that, and I quote:  Through our funding formula we will provide both the operating and the administrative costs for school divisions to hire clinicians.

      She has also stated in this House, and I quote:  We have ongoing discussions on a regular basis with school divisions across this province.

      Can the minister tell this House, has she consulted with rural and northern school divisions to determine what the actual costs are to hire these clinicians, or is she just guessing?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, we provide through our funding formula an element of fairness across this province, so through our funding formula, we have provided an enhanced grant for clinician services.  The grant was enhanced one year ago when the new school funding formula came into place, and it does provide fairness across the province.

 

Formal Consultations

 

Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood):  Mr. Speaker, with another question for the Minister of Education:  Her idea of fairness is $45,000 which will not cover the cost of hiring clinicians.  Antler River School Division indicates to us that there will be at least another $10,000 in costs for other expenses incurred and they are going to be sharing clinicians with Turtle Mountain.

      Can the minister tell this House, why do the school divisions indicate to us that formal consultations have not occurred with the minister or her staff?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, I can say to the member, in all meetings with school divisions, agendas are prepared.  School divisions are free to raise issues that are important within their school divisions, as we in government are also able to bring forward agendas to discuss with school divisions.

      We do discuss issues which are of concern and are of interest.  Those meetings do take place as requested, and also during visits that I make on behalf of this government to school divisions across this province.

Ms. Gray:  Mr. Speaker, this minister is not taking a leadership role when in fact she is only meeting with school divisions after it is requested.  She should be out there initiating the meetings.

 

Department of Education

Reform Philosophy

 

Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood):  Can the minister tell us and give us an answer which is not contradictory, as we have seen in the past from this minister, what exactly is her reform philosophy? Can she let us know?  Manitobans want to know, and we want to know.

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, I guess the honourable member has not had the time to follow me around to see the number of divisions that I have gone out to visit and have made a point of going to visit and not wait for a request for the divisions to come in to see me.  The philosophy of this government is that we do not just have to wait for people to come in here into our offices.  In fact, the ministers in this government, and in Education, go out and visit with school divisions in the field.

      On those visits, one of the areas of discussion is the issue of education reform.  The process of education reform for this government has been based on consultation.  It has been based on discussion through those visits where school divisions raise their issues of concern, where they would like to see the reform, school divisions as trustees, teachers and parents.

* (1020)

 

Brandon General Hospital

Breast Cancer Screening

 

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East):  I have a question for the Minister of Health.

      Mrs. Margaret Borotsik of Brandon has collected over 800 letters, notes and signatures from women in the Westman area from one letter that she wrote to the editor of the Brandon Sun, protesting the fact‑‑and the Minister of Energy (Mr. Downey) should listen to this, because there are a lot of people in his area who have signed this petition and have signed these letters‑‑that women in the Westman area have to wait eight months or 10 times longer than women in the Winnipeg region for a mammogram test to detect breast cancer.

      She has asked me to present these to the Minister of Health. I would ask the Page at this time if the Page would deliver this material, plus the letter to the Minister of Health from Mrs. Margaret Borotsik.

      In the name of fairness, will the minister now agree to the request of these concerned women and provide what amounts to a relatively modest increase in the Brandon General Hospital budget‑‑I think it is $84,000‑‑to allow the hospital to operate the existing equipment three more hours per day and deal with this backlog?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased my honourable friend has posed this question, because if we were to go back two and a half to three years ago, one would have recalled from a throne speech that we intended, as government, to bring into the province of Manitoba a province‑wide mammography screening program.

      Let me differentiate between screening program as a method of early detection versus diagnostic mammography, which is an investigative test where a physician makes the assessment that a woman may be at risk or may need to have a mammography to determine whether in fact there is the presence or the risk of breast cancer.

      Mr. Speaker, the issue was turned over to an expert committee in Manitoba of the best people we could put together in the province to show us how we might implement province‑wide screening for mammography.

      That committee came back recommending to the province‑‑and it was accepted by my honourable friends in the New Democratic Party‑‑that we should proceed with caution and not implement province‑wide screening because of conflicting national and international investigation and researches to the benefit and to the potential risk of screening mammography.

      That caution we have taken, but I want to reinforce to my honourable friend and to those women in Brandon that the diagnostic mammography is available within days in Brandon should a physician believe there is a risk to health of a woman.

      What we are talking about here is routine screening which originally we were recommending once every two years, Sir, not once every seven months as my honourable friend alleges the waiting list to be.

Mr. Evans:  Mr. Speaker, this routine screening that the minister talks about is still done at the request and on the basis of a doctor's recommendation for the woman to have an elective mammography test.

      So, my question is to the minister.  In all fairness, why is the minister denying women in the Westman area of this province a level of service that is available now to the women in the Winnipeg area?  I know there are differences of opinion, but they are waiting 10 times longer than the three‑week waiting period in Winnipeg, causing a great deal of anxiety and a great deal of worry.

Mr. Orchard:  With all due respect to my honourable friend, any woman under a physician's care in the Westman region can receive a mammography if the physician considers her health to be at risk, within days, not the waiting period of time.

      What my honourable friend is referring to is women who are put on an elective list for a routine screening, a substantial difference from trying to determine whether a woman has a problem which may involve cancer of the breast.  There is a significant difference, and, Sir, the waiting list that exists in Brandon is in the stage of being analyzed to see what is driving the waiting list, and what is creating the waiting list, and whether in fact women who need, according to professional recommendation, a diagnostic mammography are put at risk.

      To date we have absolutely no evidence that there is any risk to women who need a diagnostic mammography as recommended by a physician.  It does not exist, Sir‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

      Mr. Leonard Evans:  Well, I would refer the honourable minister to Dr. Kindle who has evidence to the contrary.  I admit that this is a very‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  I would remind the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), this is not a time for debate.  The honourable member for Brandon East with his question.

Mr. Evans:  Let the minister answer this:  What criteria is the minister using to maintain the level‑‑you are maintaining this service that you think is not necessary.  It is being maintained in the Winnipeg area for women who go to the clinics and the hospitals here and yet you are denying the same service to the women in the Westman area.

      What criteria are you‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member has put his question.

Mr. Orchard:  My honourable friend is touching upon an issue which causes a great amount of concern and fear to women.  Women hear television ads from the United States that if you are 30 years old, you ought to have a mammography.  Sir, that is not accurate.

      National study after national study has cautioned governments about no benefit on screening mammography, and in fact some studies have demonstrated a risk.  Now my honourable friend should surely read those studies before he now makes the case that we are putting women at risk in western Manitoba.  We are not.  Dr. Kindle, when asked the direct question, "Has anybody's health been compromised?", the last interview I heard him give said, no, he could not say that as a professional, and that is the case, Sir.

      Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to tell another side of this story‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

* (1025)

 

Unlicensed Wheat Varieties

Coverage Policy

 

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River):  Mr. Speaker, we have a Minister of Agriculture who is not taking a stand for farmers.  He will not make his position known on the western grain transportation assistance.  He held a Crop Insurance report for months and has not given any indication of what changes he is going to make, and he has not made a decision on unlicensed wheat varieties.

      Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture to tell us whether he is going to change the coverage on unlicensed wheat varieties or whether he is going to cancel the coverages on these varieties of wheat that are not licensed.

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture):  Well, I have to assume what the member is talking about.  She is talking about unlicensed wheat variety coverage under what?

An Honourable Member:  GRIP.

Mr. Findlay:  Okay, okay.  I would ask the member to be careful when she writes her question that she puts the whole facts out.

      I would like to tell the member that because of the openness of this government and the openness of this minister, a meeting was held at Portage a few weeks ago to talk to producers on how to deal with unlicensed wheat varieties in the future, and you will find in the information going to farmers last night and today that it has been dealt with in a manner that the farmers support.

Ms. Wowchuk:  Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the minister whether these varieties, which are illegal varieties, they are not licensed, are going to be covered under GRIP.  These are the varieties that are lowering our standards around the world, a reputation that Canada has worked very hard to build.  I want to know whether these varieties are going to be covered, yes or no.

Mr. Findlay:  Mr. Speaker, for years and years, Manitoba Crop Insurance board, by board order, determined what varieties will be covered year in and year out, and that process has not changed one iota.  All the appropriate decisions have been made, and yes, unlicensed varieties, certain varieties, will be covered as they have been for years by board order.  They are designated feed wheat varieties that play a very important role in terms of supplying feed wheat to the people who are in the livestock business in this province.  I wish she would wake up and understand what is really going on.

Ms. Wowchuk:  Mr. Speaker, it appears that the minister is not concerned about our reputation around the world on milling wheat.

 

Saskatchewan Government

Meeting Confirmation

 

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River):  With respect to the western grain transportation assistance, the minister has not taken a position on this, or at least he appears not to, but I want to ask the minister:  Will he confirm that he is attending a meeting this Monday to try to put pressure on the Saskatchewan government, the only government that has stood up for grain farmers to keep the method of payment the way it is?  Will the minster‑‑

Some Honourable Members:  Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture):  Mr. Speaker, it will take half an hour to answer all the ambiguities and misinformation that member has put on the record.  She totally disregards the livestock industry in this province, which is the major element of income for farmers in this province.  She totally disregards them.  She says we should not grow grain to supply that market.  The biggest market for people who grow feed grains in this province is the livestock industry; she wants to throw them out.

      She names Saskatchewan as supporting the grain farmers of western Canada.  I would like to remind her that Saskatchewan totally destroyed the principles of the GRIP program, caused 13,000 farmers to show up at Saskatoon, mad as whatever.  I guess, the Saskatchewan government, the federal government‑‑and in Manitoba, we held a forum in Portage, where people showed up with tremendous optimism and enthusiasm about the future because we have the right kind of stabilization program for the farm community of Manitoba.

 

Personal Care Homes

Quality of Health Care

 

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, yesterday I took a question from the member for The Maples regarding some layoff notices at Central Park Lodge.  I would like to provide my honourable friend in the House with information that I have received on the issue.

      I am informed that the administration of Central Park Lodge issued layoff notices to 25 registered nurses, three full time, 14 part time and eight casual, and have indicated that there will be a new staffing mix instituted at Central Park Lodge which will involve three full‑time registered nurses, three part‑time registered nurses, four full‑time licensed practical nurses, four part‑time licensed practical nurses and three part‑ or full‑time nursing aide positions with the opportunity that they meet the staffing mix criteria of the Ministry of Health.

      The advantage to patient care of this change in mix at Central Park Lodge is that, in fact, residents of that facility will receive 2,600 hours more hands‑on care per year, seven hours per day, for greater, not lesser, involvement with the patients by staff, Sir.

* (1030)

 

Centralization of Health Services

Government Policy

 

Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The Maples):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

      Part of this minister's health reform package has been the decentralization of services, and we believe that decentralization of services is a necessity to improve the efficiency in the system and spend our health care dollar more effectively.  Can the Minister of Health tell this House whether decentralization of services is still the policy of this administration?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, decentralization of services is, yes, a part of the restructuring and reform process in the health care system.  There are several agendas which, of course, are as well part of the reform and restructuring process, such as the concept of centres of excellence in terms of our Winnipeg hospital environment, where we hope over the next number of months to establish, by individual hospital program excellence, similar to the initiative that the Urban Hospital Council agreed was an appropriate change in service provision, for instance, with pediatric services with the consolidation to Children's Hospital.

      A third area, Sir, that my honourable friend I know was interested in, that we hoped to see some progress on this year is, of course, the movement of services from, say, the urban environment of Winnipeg and Brandon to appropriate care delivery localities in rural and northern Manitoba so that individuals can be cared for closer to home with the appropriate support by staff, facility, et cetera.

Mr. Cheema:  Mr. Speaker, we have learned that the cytology work from the Manitoba Clinic is being sent to a private lab instead of the Health Sciences Centre.  Can the Minister of Health explain how this fits with this policy of centralization of services?

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, I have to take that question as notice because I am not aware of the details of the program.  I will provide him with those kinds of details.

Mr. Cheema:  Mr. Speaker, the Health Sciences Centre has been providing these cytology and Pap smear services in their centre of excellence.  Can the minister tell this House, once he has inquired about this situation, will he reverse that decision to make sure that the policy is consistent with the health care package?

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, I cannot give my honourable friend either a yes or no answer to that until I know the details of this particular test shift as indicated by my honourable friend and the rationale behind it.  I will say to my honourable friend that I hope to be able to provide him with that kind of detail on Monday.

 

Lockport Bridge Closure

Tourism Promotion

 

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk):  As members of the Legislature are aware, the Lockport Bridge has been closed for over two months, despite the promise by the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism that the bridge would probably not even close at all.

      Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Tourism.  Has he reconsidered his position on tourism promotion in the Lockport area to take advantage of the increased hours of Lower Fort Garry and to combat the serious loss of business in that area?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, at the outset there was no reconsideration of any position by this minister or this government.  We have a request from the community to support some tourism initiatives in the Lockport area, as currently under review by my department.  We are in contact with citizens of Lockport, and we will be responding to that very shortly.

      We met with them on the issue.  We are looking at the kinds of things we can do and most likely will end up jointly supporting an initiative in the tourism area to promote that aspect of their economy.

Mr. Dewar:  I would thank the minister for responding positively to my request for tourism promotion.

 

Lockport Bridge Closure

Ferry Proposal

 

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk):  My next question is to the Minister of Highways.

      Since the deadline for tenders of reconstruction of the bridge is the end of this month, and there is a possibility that the winter road will close at any time, is the minister prepared to assist with putting a temporary ferry to link east Lockport and west Lockport?

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I am not sure what kind of contact the member has with his constituents out there, but I had the privilege of meeting with a group from Lockport yesterday, where they presented a request to me to give consideration for a temporary ferry service.  There are many complications and issues that have to be dealt with.  I undertook with them to get more information, and once we have that information, we will relay it to them and see whether we can probably accommodate them.

 

Government Action

 

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk):  The residents of the Lockport area have been waiting now for six months for this government to act. Why has this minister not acted before?

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): I do not know whether it is proper to call a member in this House naive, but I would suggest that this member acquaint himself with the fact that this is a federal responsibility.  We, as a province, have been working very closely together with my colleagues in terms of trying to alleviate the hardship that is being created by the closing of the bridge, but ultimately it is a federal responsibility.  We have been bending over backwards to try and help whichever way we can and will continue to do that. He should try and acquaint himself with the facts before he makes statements about six months of inaction by this government.

 

Private/Independent Schools

Funding Levels

 

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  The Minister of Education says that she is broke.  She has no more money for the public education system.  Well, the public education system, which she says is a priority‑‑there is just no more money in this government.

      We want to ask the Minister of Education:  Will the minister acknowledge today that the government of which she is a part has increased the spending to the private, independent and elite schools in this province by more than $60 million above the formula which was in place when they came to the government, part of the time that she was in government, a cumulative amount over those five years of an additional $60 million to those private and independent schools?  Will she acknowledge that today?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Let me clarify any misunderstanding which my friend may be attempting to stir up.  The independent schools of this province in the funding announcement that was made this year received the same 2 percent reduction as all other schools.  In addition, through the letter of comfort, though they were to receive an incremental phased‑in increase, they did not receive it.

Mr. Plohman:  It certainly was a letter of comfort for a number of years.  Will the minister‑‑

Some Honourable Members:  Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

Mr. Plohman:  Mr. Speaker, this minister has not disputed the $60‑million figure, additional increase of funding.  Will the minister acknowledge that that same $60 million, if this government had chosen different priorities, could have been used at the current rate of inflation to fund at inflation, as the Premier (Mr. Filmon) promised, the public schools for the next five years?  Will she acknowledge that as well?

Mrs. Vodrey:  I cannot accept the preamble that the member has attempted to put into this question by any means.  I will tell you that this government has continued its commitment to education in this province.  We have continued to fund it in a way that has been fair and equitable.

      This year, we have now asked the educational system to look very carefully at its own budget on behalf of all Manitobans.  In examining their budgets, we have asked them also to consider first and foremost the students and the integrity of the classroom.

* (1040)

Mr. Plohman:  Mr. Speaker, it is a matter of priorities.  You had a choice, and you chose to put it into the private and elite schools.

     

Special Needs Children

 

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  Will this minister also tell this House how many children requiring the special services of the Diagnostic Centre, which she cut this last week, and of the speech pathologist and psychologists who help special needs kids in this province, attend these private, elite schools such as St. John's‑Ravenscourt and Balmoral Hall?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Well, let us speak about the areas of priorities and a bridge that my honourable friend felt was important and a priority for his government that did not go into educational funding of that government.  The Diagnostic Centre has provided support for school divisions, particularly school divisions outside of Winnipeg, rural school divisions.  Now there is certainly expertise built up within the home school divisions so that those young people will not have to leave their families.  They can remain in their own homes and receive the support.

      In addition, through our Diagnostic Centre, however, we have maintained two positions, one position that will assist across this province for the emotionally behaviourally disordered children and another for the severely learning disabled young person.

 

Northern Communities‑Compensation

Manitoba Hydro/Saskatchewan Power

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Northern Affairs and the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro.

      The government of Manitoba, and I think quite rightly, has joined as an intervener in an action on the part of two bands in northern Manitoba, the Mathias Colomb Band in Pukatawagan and the Barren Lands Band in Brochet, in an action against Saskatchewan Power, which has been regulating the water regimes in Reindeer Lake and the Churchill River for a number of years and causing compensable damage downstream.

      There are two Metis communities, one in Granville Lake and the other in Brochet, which because of their direct support from the Department of Northern Affairs, have not been a party to this action.

      Mr. Speaker, my question to the minister is:  Will the government of Manitoba now, on behalf of the communities of Granville Lake and Brochet, involve those communities in the question of compensation that may be due them, both from Manitoba Hydro and from SaskPower?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs):  Mr. Speaker, the issue which the member raises is not a new one for the communities that fall along the Reindeer river system, of which is the joint water system between Saskatchewan and Manitoba and Saskatchewan hydro and the flows of water which come into Manitoba.  There have been discussions taking place between Saskatchewan Power and the province and the bands.  We are, hopefully, trying to resolve those through consultation with the communities, and as far as we are concerned, the communities should be treated in the same manner as the bands.

Mr. Speaker:  Time for Oral Questions has expired.

 

NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS

 

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):  Mr. Speaker, might I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement?

Mr. Speaker:  Does the honourable member for Kildonan have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed]

Mr. Chomiak:  Mr. Speaker, tonight at the Winnipeg Arena, a young man will be honoured for his magnificent achievements as a member of the Winnipeg Jets.

      Mr. Speaker, I would like to deal with that young man from a bit of a different perspective.  Teemu Selanne‑‑my wife always corrects me on the pronunciation of his name‑‑is going to be honoured tonight.  This young man comes from a country which is very similar to ours.  Finland is a northern country with many of the same characteristics as ours, a friendly and industrious population, same reliance on natural resources, a country with a terrain very similar to ours and a country next to a political and economic giant.

      Mr. Speaker, as a result of the accomplishments of this young man, people in Finland from Turku to Ilomantsi, from Helsinki to Lapland, all the people of Finland will be focused on Winnipeg and on Canada.  This young man has accomplished marvels on the ice.  He has done so with humility and courage, for this young man is the kind of person who at the age of 22 years has a wa