LEGISLATIVE
ASSEMBLY OF
Tuesday,
March 16, 1993
The House met at 1:30
p.m.
PRAYERS
ROUTINE
PROCEEDINGS
TABLING OF
REPORTS
Hon. James Downey
(Minister of Northern Affairs): Mr. Speaker,
I am pleased to table the Northern Manitoba Economic Development Commission
Northern
Hon. James McCrae
(Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I am tabling today the
Annual Report for 1990-91 and 1991-92 of the Seizure and Impoundment Registry,
as well as the Fifth Annual Report of the Victims Assistance Committee.
Introduction
of Guests
Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the
attention of honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us
this afternoon Mr. William Witting, who is the Consul General of the
On behalf of all honourable members, I
would like to welcome you here this afternoon.
Also this afternoon, I would like to draw
the attention of honourable members to the public gallery, where we have with
us today Miss Miranda Kowalec and her parents Alan and Christina Kowalec. Miranda is a Grade 6 student at Balmoral
Hall, who is the
On behalf of all honourable members, I
would like to welcome you here this afternoon.
ORAL
QUESTION PERIOD
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the First
Minister. We have learned today that 19
more employees have been laid off at Northern Telecom. That follows on 45 jobs that were lost a
couple of months ago, and it follows on another 45 jobs that were lost a year
ago.
Ironically, when we were asking this
government yesterday about tough choices, we asked questions about the training
grants and payroll deductions for corporations for training purposes. This
company has received $65,000 from the provincial government, which is the same
amount of money this government is cutting from the
I would ask the Premier: Would he consider redeploying money that he
has had for training grants, particularly to companies that are laying people
off in the province and putting it to the vital social services that the Premier
has announced he cut yesterday?
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): Mr. Speaker, as I said yesterday to the
Leader of the Opposition, it is not just a question of whether or not services
are provided; it is whether or not those services are available elsewhere. The ones that he referred to are obviously
available elsewhere.
The other aspect of his question, Mr.
Speaker, again is wrongly put because we do not make grants to the
businesses. In fact, what we do is
provide them with a credit against their payment of their payroll tax. We reduce the amount that they pay on payroll
tax in keeping with the amount that they spend on educating and training
people, which is indeed a very much needed investment in our economy, and we
believe it is important. Even though the
New Democrats do not want to see investments in training and education, we do,
and the program has proven to be a very successful one to encourage businesses
to invest in training and development of their human resources.
* (1335)
Aboriginal
Friendship Centres Funding
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, that is why there were over 300
people working at that plant when the NDP was in power, and there is almost
half that amount now with the Conservatives in power in terms of that very
vital plant.
Yesterday, Mr. Speaker, the Premier
defended his cuts for people, for agencies when I asked him the question saying
that these agencies that we have cut do not provide services to the people of
I direct the Premier to the Indian and
Metis Friendship Centres across the province that provide housing counselling,
that provide institutional support. They
provide drug counselling, cultural counselling, provide elders programming‑‑again,
inconsistent with the Premier's announcement‑‑provide volunteer
programming for aboriginal people, provide fine option programs, provide youth
programs, provide income tax services for aboriginal people and provide job
counselling services for those people in the inner city and many communities across
The government's announcement yesterday
laid off some 33 people working all across the province with the people again
who are some of the most vulnerable in our society. At the same time, Mr. Speaker, the government
has corporate grants to Linnett Graphics of over $1 million. It has corporate grants that they have
announced with the Vision Capital Fund of $15 million.
Why does the Premier not cancel a few of
those corporate grants and keep that $1.3 million for those people working with
the most vulnerable people in Manitoban society?
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): Mr. Speaker, I repeat, the Leader of the
Opposition is misrepresenting what is happening. These are not grants to corporations. There are investments in the developments of
technology, investments that have been made by previous governments, including
New Democratic governments.
The things that he referred to are exactly
the same kinds of program decisions and investments that were made by the
government of which he was a part when they invested in computers in Unisys,
when they spent some $30 million on computers with Unisys. If he wants to call those grants to
corporations‑‑that was a New Democratic policy‑‑he may
do so. The fact is that the ones that he
refers to are investments in technology development which employ, I might say,
many, many people in high technology fields because of the fact that these
investments are being made.
Student
Financial Assistance Program Funding
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we did not cut back the grants to
vulnerable people in our society. We had
a balance between investments in corporations and investment in people.
This government is cutting all the grants
to people and leaving in place all the grants to corporations, and that is
clear from the Premier's answers here this afternoon.
Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary to the
Premier: The government has announced
the reduction in support for student social allowances. This program has been assistance to social
allowance recipients to get an education, to hopefully get off of welfare, to
get off social assistance, to get into meaningful employment.
I would like to ask the Premier: How many people will be cut off of their
educational opportunities with the reduction from this government? What will be the long‑term economic
impact of it not allowing some individuals in our society to get the education,
to get the training and to get off welfare as they plan their life careers, Mr.
Speaker?
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer
(Minister of Family Services): Mr.
Speaker, as the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) indicated yesterday, there are
many difficult choices that have to be made in putting a budget together.
I would take this opportunity to remind
him of what Premier Romanow said in January when he said, for a New Democrat
who is used to being in government when the economy is expanding and who is
used to redistributing wealth, the change to creating wealth and to taking back
concessions given to people in better times is so darn difficult.
I would mention to the member for
Concordia that these are difficult times and the government is making very
difficult decisions. The program that
the member is asking about is one that did not exist in other provinces. These students who are primarily high school
students will be finishing up their programs in June, and after that, this
program will be terminated.
* (1340)
Education
System
Medical
Services
Mr. Dave Chomiak
(Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, a potentially serious situation
exists in our schools and our daycares because relatively untrained people are
providing medical procedures such as catheterization, tube feeding and
medicines to children. In some
locations, in schools, kids line up at the principal's office to receive their
medicine.
MTS, unions and parents have all pointed
out the dangers of this situation, and the Manitoba Medical Association is
doing a medical audit of Winnipeg School Division No. 1 as a result. What, if anything,
is this government doing to provide adequate and safe medical treatment for our
children in schools and in daycares?
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I do not
know whether my honourable friend wanted me to answer the question, but I will
indicate to my honourable friend that this issue has been before the government
for several months now, and a meeting was held with Winnipeg School Division
No. 1 last year, I believe, in December.
What we are attempting to do is a number
of things in co‑operation with the school trustees and the school
divisions of the
Mr. Chomiak: My supplementary to the same minister: Why is the government, therefore, firing the
four nurses who have developed the only on‑site comprehensive program to
train paraprofessionals in Winnipeg School Division No. 1, the only one I am
aware of that trains them, provides them assistance and monitors them to all,
not only schools, but to daycares? Why
is the government firing these nurses at the end of the month?
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I am not accepting my honourable
friend's analysis of initiatives verbatim, as he states. Within the Ministry of Health, we have
actively been pursuing a co‑ordinated approach available across the
province to resolve the issues that have been identified, as I say, by MTS and
by MAST.
Now, that discussion with those two
professional organizations and my ministry, in collaboration with the Ministry
of Education, will lead, I hope, to a reasoned program which is understood by
all and will in many ways alleviate some of the concerns that have been raised
by teachers in the classroom and indeed, Sir, school divisions.
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary to the
same minister: The only program of its
kind in existence will end at the end of the month. Will the minister consider funding the pilot
project that has been before his ministry, the Minister of Education (Mrs.
Vodrey) and, I believe, the Premier's (Mr. Filmon) office for months now and
has received no response?
Will he consider funding this program for
20 months at $177,000 and take some of that money out of some of the money they
are going to pay to their American consultant who flies in here, Mr. Speaker,
and who probably costs more in one month than the whole program will cost in a
year?
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, despite all my honourable
friend's rhetorical flourish and attempt to gain attention that he possibly
does not earn, that is exactly the process this ministry and this government
has embarked upon in discussion with the school divisions as represented by
MAST and other individuals who are concerned about the issue of a potentially
complex medical services provision within the classroom.
Student
Financial Assistance Program Funding
Elimination
Impact
Mr. Reg Alcock
(Osborne): I have a question for the Minister of Finance
(Mr. Manness), as the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) seems
unaware of the answer and the Minister of Finance seems to be making most of
the decisions in this government.
Mr. Speaker, when a child becomes a ward
of the state, it is usually because their family is so abusive or so dangerous
that they are no longer seen as capable of caring for the child, and in other
circumstances, when a child's family is so impoverished that they can no longer
provide care, we have always allowed these children a route out of that
poverty. We have allowed them the chance
to get educated, and we have supported them in receiving that education.
This government has now made the decision
to cease that support as the Minister of Family Services just said. What I would like to know is, how many
students will this affect this year?
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer
(Minister of Family Services): Mr.
Speaker, we have about 1,200 to 1,400 students in this program who are
completing their course by the end of June.
Following that, the program will be terminated.
Mr. Alcock: How easily he says it, Mr. Speaker.
* (1345)
Alternative
Funding
Mr. Reg Alcock
(Osborne): Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of
Education: Will there be grant and
bursary support available to these 1,200 students to allow them to continue
their education or further it at university?
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey
(Minister of Education and Training): The
member is asking about the Manitoba Student Financial Assistance Program, and I
have explained to him, that by the way, is the second application students
would make. The first one is to the
Mr. Alcock: Mr. Speaker, I realize the government finds
this a funny issue, but the rest of us do not.
Funding
Elimination Impact
Mr. Reg Alcock
(Osborne): Can the Minister of Family Services tell us
this: Of these 1,200 students, in the
fall, how many will remain on municipal or city social assistance rather than
come on the provincial program?
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer
(Minister of Family Services): As the
member is well aware, those individual students, as they finish their high
school this year, some of them may be returning to high school, may be
returning home to complete that high school program, others will be accessing
programs that the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey) has just referenced to go
on to other forms of study.
Child
Daycare Centres
Staff
Salaries
Mr. Doug Martindale
(Burrows): Mr. Speaker, yesterday the government of
This government then, after cutting the
grants to the organizations, went on to attack women and children by reducing
the number of subsidized child care spaces by 400, requiring subsidized parents
to pay an additional $1.40 a day, reducing operating grants by 4 percent and
for licensed nursery schools by 50 percent.
Does the Minister of Family Services
expect child care centres and nursery schools to continue operating due solely
to the subsidy provided by their staff, staff who are professionals but who are
underpaid, have no pension plan and few benefits?
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer
(Minister of Family Services): Mr.
Speaker, as I have indicated in the past, the budget line for daycare is one
that has had the most dramatic increase of any budget line in government. It has virtually doubled in the last five
budgets. Our budget line again will
increase there, and we will be spending upwards of $47 million on preschool
children who are subsidized in daycare homes and daycare centres.
I did have the opportunity to attend the
provincial Day Care Conference in
Unlicensed
Care Monitoring
Mr. Doug Martindale
(Burrows): Mr. Speaker, this province used to have the
best daycare system in
Will the minister tell the House how his
government, as a result of freezing licensing of new child care spaces, will
monitor the proliferation of unlicensed caregivers? How will this government protect children being
cared for in unmonitored homes? Does
this minister not see the relationship between‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please.
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer
(Minister of Family Services): Mr.
Speaker, if the member wants to do an interprovincial comparison, the
Subsidized
Spaces–Fee Increase
Mr. Doug Martindale
(Burrows): How can this minister justify stealing from
the poor and contravening the agreement between provincial and territorial
ministers of Family Services made in
* (1350)
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer
(Minister of Family Services): Mr.
Speaker, I would tell the member that the care for children in daycare centres
and daycare homes is a very, very expensive proposition. It costs the government, for fully subsidized
children, in the neighbourhood of $7,000 to $8,000 a year per child. We are asking families that have subsidized
children to participate in that cost by asking them to pay $1.40 a day.
Point of
Order
Hon. Clayton Manness
(Government House Leader): On a point of order,
Mr. Speaker, I should have risen a moment ago, but just so the members opposite
do not feel or come to believe that the word "stealing" is something
that is parliamentary when it is not, I would refer you to the unparliamentary
list, which indicates very directly that the word "stealing" is
something that should not be used within debate or indeed Question Period.
Mr. Steve Ashton
(Opposition House Leader): On the same point of
order, Mr. Speaker, in determining whether language is unparliamentary or not,
it is very clear that context has to be taken into account. The member was not suggesting the minister
was individually stealing anything, but anybody who is observing what is
happening in
Mr. Speaker: On that point of order raised, I also was
attempting to find the word in Beauchesne, and quite clearly the word is
unparliamentary. I would caution the
honourable member that that word will not be tolerated. I did not get my hands on it at the time, but
I would caution the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale).
Mr. Martindale: Mr. Speaker, I withdraw the words
"stealing from the poor" in spite of the fact that it is a good‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Unqualified.
I would like to thank the honourable member.
Child and
Family Services Agencies
Foster
Family Training
Ms. Becky Barrett (
Can the Minister of Family Services give
us the assurance today that additional resources will be made available to the
Child and Family Services agencies in the
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer
(Minister of Family Services): Mr.
Speaker, as I indicated yesterday, the agencies would now be responsible for
the training. In the past, they have
done the recruiting of foster homes.
They have done the licensing of foster homes, and in the future, they
will do the training of foster homes.
This morning, I met with the executive
directors of the three mainstream agencies in the province, along with the
presidents of their boards, to go over this with them. We believe that we will have an opportunity
with department staff and the co‑operation of those agencies to put in
place a plan where they will not only do the recruiting and licensing, but also
be responsible for the training.
Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Family
Services guarantee today that there is not only a plan in place with these
agencies, but that there are the resources in place for these agencies to do
the training, seeing as how Child and Family Services agencies today not only
do not have the resources to do additional training, but they are putting
children into hotels because they do not have the foster families and the
services available? Will there be additional
funds available for these services to be able to provide this essential
training for foster‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, I have just finished saying that
agencies have recruited and licensed foster homes in the past. They will
continue to do that. There will be times
when there are emergencies where other forms of accommodation will have to be
used on a very short‑term basis.
In my discussion with the board chairs and with the executive directors
this morning, we talked about staff resources and financial resources that we
could identify to assist with that training.
Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, cool comfort indeed.
* (1355)
Foster
Families Recruitment
Ms. Becky Barrett (
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer
(Minister of Family Services): Well,
Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is factually incorrect. I just indicated in my previous answer that
we would dedicate staff resources and financial resources to do this particular
job. I would also point out to her that
the rate that she raises, the basic rate in
Offender
Employment Program Funding
Mr. Paul Edwards (St.
James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the‑‑[applause]
I want to thank honourable members, but that is not good for my campaign, and I
will not be taking advice on leadership from a number of the members opposite.
Mr. Speaker, my question is for the
Minister of Justice. A week ago, the
minister told me in this House in response to a question, that the reason it
was okay that someone like Mr. Timothy Zaber only spent six out of 90 days in
jail for domestic assault was that, and I quote: " . . . what we are talking about is
supervised work being done while under a temporary
absence. . . ."
However, Mr. Speaker, yesterday in the
government's announcement, work programs in the community was the only excuse
the minister gave, and yesterday the John Howard Society program for offender
employment was eliminated.
My question for the minister: What is the current excuse for release of an
offender convicted of domestic assault after one‑fourteenth of his
sentence now that we know there is no offender employment program?
Hon. James McCrae
(Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Despite the fact that the honourable
member has said that he will not accept advice from this side of the House on
how to run his campaign, I would offer one suggestion, and that is that after
five years as a critic for the Justice portfolio, he could at least get his
facts straight. It might be helpful
during his campaign. That would be one
little piece of advice.
I say to him that the announcement
yesterday about the John Howard employment program and the issues he has been
raising recently with respect to temporary absences and work programs being
carried out under that are not directly related.
So the honourable member tries to import
into a debate something he has all his facts wrong on, something else on which
he has his facts wrong.
Mr. Edwards: The minister does not put any contrary facts
on the record. He just huffs and
blows. There are no contrary facts that
he has come up with.
My further question for the minister, Mr.
Speaker. The government press release
says a priority is protective services for Manitobans. How is the elimination of the John Howard
offender employment program, whose sole purpose is to successfully reintegrate
offenders into society as law‑abiding citizens, how is the elimination of
that program in keeping with the government's commitment to protect Manitobans?
* (1400)
Mr. McCrae: I think the honourable member will agree,
despite all of the demands for more spending by him and his colleagues, that
the
Unfortunately, the offender employment
program run by the John Howard Society, with every good intention on their part
and on the part of the government at the time it got going, the evaluations of
that program have not been as positive as we would have liked. They have not met the expectations that we or
John Howard would have liked to have seen.
Seizure and
Impoundment Registry
Production
Costs
Mr. Paul Edwards (St.
James): Mr. Speaker, it is ironic that the minister
raises spending every dollar carefully.
My question for the minister: I have just been handed the Seizure and
Impoundment Registry booklet which is made up of four pages that says anything‑‑there
are another nine pages that say nothing in this booklet. Mr. Speaker, two manila covers, two pages of
pictures of the minister and‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please.
Mr. Edwards: . . . for every dollar they have spent, and
this government continues to spend excessively on totally useless things like
pictures of the Minister of Justice and his acting deputy Attorney General.
Hon. James McCrae
(Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I
know it upsets the honourable member that the reports distributed in this House
have covers, Mr. Speaker. I know that is
upsetting to him, but most books that I have ever read had covers, too.
The other thing that I should raise, after
a lot of kicking and screaming, we finally managed to get the honourable member
for St. James to support our anti‑drinking and driving campaign. Part of
that legislation calls for information to be made available to members of this
House by way of a report on the registry.
The honourable member ultimately supported that legislation. I would have assumed he would want to know
how it is working, and that is what these reports are all about.
Aboriginal
Friendship Centres Funding
Mr. Steve Ashton
(Thompson): Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Premier suggested
that friendship centres in this province were being cut because they do not
provide services to the vulnerable. I do
not know the last time the Premier set foot inside a friendship centre, but if
he came to the Ma‑Mow‑We‑Tak Friendship Centre in Thompson,
he could observe the elders program, the hospital visit program, the medical
interpreter escort program, the education workshops, the literacy programs, the
youth programs that provide services to more than 30,000 people in our
community in Thompson.
I have but one very simple question to the
Premier. If this is not providing
services to the most vulnerable, what is?
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): Mr. Speaker, I know that in their wonderful
world in which they can take no responsibility, the New Democrats of this
Legislature can stand up‑‑[interjection] I certainly do not take
responsibility for the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli). I can say that without equivocation and with
a great deal of pride. They take no
responsibility. They are unwilling to
look at the very difficult challenges that face every government in this
country. They need only listen to their
colleagues who are in government, the Roy Romanow's, the Bob Rae's of this
world, who are making very, very difficult choices, massive cuts in health care
and education, because they are dealing with reality. They are not dealing with the never‑never
land of the New Democrats of Manitoba, which is shear irresponsibility.
Mr. Speaker, we have to make difficult choices. We have to look at the options, and we have
to look at the future. We want to
protect vital services in the province.
We cannot simply fund everything and, particularly, we cannot fund
things for which there may be alternatives, for which there may be services
being provided by others.
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Speaker: Order, please.
Mr. Filmon: It is the children of this province who will
have to pay back for the deficit spending that the New Democrats‑‑increased
taxes that will be a millstone around their necks and ensure that they never
have the opportunities of their parents' generation. That is a very sad legacy. That is a very sad priority that New
Democrats have chosen.
I repeat for you, that other provinces in
which New Democrats are in office are taking these measures and even more
difficult measures, because they know and understand responsibility. They do not sit there and chirp away in their
irresponsible fashion like the New Democrats of Manitoba.
Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, to quote another Tory, you, sir,
had a choice and you cut the friendship centres.
I guess it is no accident there is no
friendship centre in Tuxedo and there are no friendship centres in all but one
of the NDP ridings.
I want to ask the Premier, will he now
admit, Mr. Speaker, what is patently obvious to anyone who has looked at the
list of the grants that was released, that the real agenda here is
politics? You cut those who speak out
against you. You cut those who do not
share your political philosophy. Will
the Premier admit to what is actually happening?
Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, the old adage that when you have
nothing of substance to say, shout and scream, is very, very obvious by the
demeanour and the actions of the member for Thompson and his colleagues.
My short answer to his question is
absolutely not, Mr. Speaker.
Brandon
Friendship Centre, Inc. Funding
Mr. Leonard Evans
(Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, in the cuts that the government
announced yesterday, is included a cut in the annual grant to the Brandon
Friendship Centre amounting to an elimination of the annual grant, amounting to
$76,300, which means, according to the chairperson of the board, Rita Cullen,
that two workers dealing directly with disadvantaged youth in the community
will be laid off in two weeks, and programs to help idle youth stay off the
streets and from getting into trouble will be eliminated.
My question to the Premier or to the
minister is: How can they say that these
cuts do not affect services for people when in the
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer
(Minister of Family Services): Mr.
Speaker, the Brandon Friendship Centre has a budget in excess of a million
dollars. The province is responsible by
grant in the past for 8 percent of their total grant. Just as other groups in society are making
some fundamental changes, in health reform, in school divisions, I think the
friendship centres also have some changes that they have to make.
Again, I point out to the member that we
are only responsible for a small portion of their total funding, and the board
of that friendship centre will have decisions to make internally as to how they
allocate those funds.
Mr. Leonard Evans: Maybe the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae)
would like to respond, because we are talking about specific programs that help
specific youth in that community from disadvantaged homes.
How can we expect the level of juvenile
delinquency to be kept down in the city of
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, this is part of their global
funding. As I indicated in my previous
answer, the board of the Indian‑Metis Friendship Centre in
Again, I point out that our contribution
is 8 percent and that they will have the ability within their global budget to
make those changes.
Mr. Leonard Evans: I wish the minister was right, but according
to the chairperson of the board, they will be laying off two people. They cannot afford to keep two people who do
work with young people. That is
categorical. The drop‑in centre in
the evening will be closed down as well.
So I am asking this minister or this
Premier (Mr. Filmon) to reconsider and reverse this decision to cut an
important grant so that this centre can continue to maintain services to young
people, including the summer program activity and various other school programs
and to allow the drop‑in centre to stay open in the evening so these kids
have a place to go. But it is going to
be closed‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please.
* (1410)
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, the member seems to indicate that
they are going to close the doors when 92 percent of their million‑dollar
budget is still in place. The board of
that centre is elected, appointed to make policy decisions, to make decisions
on expenditures. They are facing the
same tough decisions that all other organizations are facing at this time. With
government revenue declining, this was a difficult decision for us to make.
Child
Daycare Centres
Subsidized
Spaces–Fee Increase
Mrs. Sharon Carstairs
(Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.
Speaker, the whole purpose of a subsidy in daycare is to provide the
opportunity for a parent to have that child in that child care space because
the parent cannot afford it. A subsidy
is not given because the parent has money; the subsidy is given because the
parent has no money.
When you look at the child care centres in
the inner city of the city of
Is this minister suggesting that there is
any viability left for these child care centres when they will not get enough
money to keep in operation?
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer
(Minister of Family Services): Daycare
subsidies are a complex issue. I would
invite the member to come to Estimates, and we can deal with this in more
detail.
Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, this government has reduced the
seek‑employment subsidy from eight weeks to two weeks. Not only have they cut students so that they
will not be able to go to school any longer, they have now said that those who
have the opportunity to find employment, that they used to give a step up‑‑will
get eight weeks of subsidy and a child care space while they looked for that
employment. Yesterday that was cut to
two weeks.
Child care centres that I spoke with this
morning said they cannot develop a relationship with a child in a two‑week
period of time.
Can this minister tell this House how
women are to go out and find employment when they will not have a child care
space so that they can conduct interviews‑‑so that they can find
jobs?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I would invite the member to join in the
Estimates process within the next hour, and we can look at this in some detail.
Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, let me tell the minister that I
will participate in the Estimates process only when they tell me what they are
doing to every other department in this government, and that I am not going to
have my parliamentary rights removed from me.
Will the minister tell this House
now: How many child care spaces he
thinks will be eliminated in this province as a result of his decision to
charge subsidy parents $2.40 a day?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, the daycare issue is one that the
Liberal Party has avoided in the past, and I would invite the member to
Estimates to go into some detail on this.
Mr.
Speaker: The time for Oral Questions
has expired.
Speaker's
Ruling
Mr. Speaker: I have a ruling for the House.
I am ruling on a matter of privilege
raised by the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) on March 11,
1993. In speaking to the matter of
privilege, the honourable member stated that the Minister of Health (Mr.
Orchard) on March 3, while answering a question, stated that outpatient
services for children would continue in most, if not all, of the locations
currently, including St. Boniface and
The honourable member for Kildonan then
went on to say that the next day an official in the Minister of Health's office
sent a letter to community hospitals indicating that children's outpatient
surgical services would be provided by the Children's Hospital only. Therefore, the claim of privilege was that
the Minister of Health said one thing in the House but had already made a
different decision.
The issue here is whether there is a prima
facie case of privilege; I do not believe there is. I would refer to my rulings of June 13 and
June 19, 1991; " . . . a motion of privilege should be worded in such a
way that another member is alleged to have deliberately or intentionally misled
the House" and a member "' . . . must support his or her charge with
proof of intent.'"
The motion put forward by the honourable
member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) did not indicate that the Minister of Health
(Mr. Orchard) deliberately misled the House, nor did the member in his comments
provide proof that the minister deliberately set out to mislead the House. I would also quote from page 191 of
Parliamentary Privilege in
It is clear that this case is a dispute
over the facts which, according to the rulings of previous Speakers in
* * *
Mr. Speaker: I will recognize the honourable Leader of the
second opposition party (Mrs. Carstairs).
The honourable Leader is moving a motion, I believe, at this time.
Prior to recognizing the honourable
member, I believe the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) has a
committee change, so I will recognize the honourable member for Point
Committee
Changes
Mr. George Hickes (Point
Douglas): I move, seconded by the member for
Mr. Speaker: Agreed?
Agreed and so ordered.
Mr. Edward Helwer
(Gimli): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member
for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), that the composition of the Standing Committee on
Public Accounts be amended as follows:
the member for Arthur‑Virden (Mr. Downey) for the member for
I move, seconded by the member for
Mr. Speaker: Agreed?
Agreed and so ordered.
NONPOLITICAL
STATEMENTS
Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable Minister of Government
Services have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed]
Hon. Gerald Ducharme
(Minister of Government Services):
I would like to congratulate Coach Jerry
Ilchyna and the Freshmen Girls who defeated
* (1420)
* * *
Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines
have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed]
Hon. James Downey
(Minister of Energy and Mines): Thank
you, Mr. Speaker and members of the House, for an opportunity to make a
nonpolitical statement.
I was pleased to have Miranda Kowalec as my
guest today, Mr. Speaker. Miranda is a
Grade 6 student at