LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Wednesday, March 24, 1993

 

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

 

PRAYERS

 

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

 

PRESENTING PETITIONS

 

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Sheila Inman, Sharon Anderson, Gwen Duguid and others, requesting the Family Services minister (Mr. Gilleshammer) consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba.

Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Olga McIvor, Lawrence Campbell, Brian Beauchamp and others requesting the Family Services minister (Mr. Gilleshammer) consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba.

* * *

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of V. Gregg, L. Friesen, F. Kozak and others requesting the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik) to consider holding public hearings on wide‑open Sunday shopping throughout Manitoba before March 31, 1993, and requesting the Attorney General (Mr. McCrae) uphold the current law concerning Sunday shopping until public hearings are held and the Legislature approves changes to the law.

* * *

Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Frederick Harper, Cory Henderson, Elaine Marko and others requesting the Family Services minister (Mr. Gilleshammer) consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba.

 

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

 

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Storie), and it complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and it complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed]

Mr. Clerk (William Remnant):  The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

      WHEREAS the United Nations has declared 1993 the International Year of the World's Indigenous People with the theme, "Indigenous People:  a new partnership"; and

      WHEREAS the provincial government has totally discontinued funding to all friendship centres; and

      WHEREAS the provincial government has stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and

      WHEREAS the elimination of all funding to friendship centres will result in the loss of many jobs as well as the services and programs provided, such as:  assistance to the elderly, the homeless, youth programming, the socially disadvantaged, families in crisis, education, recreation and cultural programming, housing relocation, fine options, counselling, court assistance, advocacy;

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Family Services minister to consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba.

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Clif Evans), and it complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and it complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed]

Mr. Clerk:  The petition of undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

      WHEREAS the United Nations has declared 1993 the International Year of the World's Indigenous People with the theme, "Indigenous People:  a new partnership"; and

      WHEREAS the provincial government has totally discontinued funding to all friendship centres; and

      WHEREAS the provincial government has stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and

      WHEREAS the elimination of all funding to friendship centres will result in the loss of many jobs as well as the services and programs provided, such as:  assistance to the elderly, the homeless, youth programming, the socially disadvantaged, families in crisis, education, recreation and cultural programming, housing relocation, fine options, counselling, court assistance, advocacy;

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Family Services minister to consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba.

 

TABLING OF REPORTS

 

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister responsible for The Civil Service Superannuation Act):  Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the 1992 Annual Report of the Manitoba Civil Service Superannuation Board.

 

Introduction of Guests

 

Mr. Speaker:  Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from the Ralph Brown School, thirty Grade 5 students under the direction of Cora Duffy.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia‑Leis).

      Also this afternoon, we have, from the Inkster Seniors Luncheon Club, 50 seniors under the direction of Mary Deibert. This institution is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak).

      On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon.

* (1335)

 

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

 

Manitoba Foster Family Association

Government Relationship

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, we have been asking the First Minister for the last week and a half questions about the decisions that have been made by his government, dealing with volunteer groups and organizations and Manitobans dealing with some of the most vulnerable people in our society.

      Mr. Speaker, today on the steps of the Legislature, the member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) made some very interesting points about the number of kids who used to be in institutional care. Over a thousand kids were in high‑cost institutional care 10 years ago.  Under changes that were made to foster parents and the kind of supports put in for foster parents and children, that number has been reduced to under 200 in terms of acute institutional care, whereas the foster kids have increased by up to about 2,500.  Those numbers are consistent with our material in the same area, that having a good foster parents system, with strong supports, is good in terms of the emotional care for those children and is very, very sound economically for the province, which is the ultimate guardian for those children.

      Yesterday, the Premier stated that foster parents can be replaced, Mr. Speaker.  Now this, we believe, is not the tone to arrive at an agreement with the very vital‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

 

Point of Order

 

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  I know that the member opposite would not want to leave on the record something that is patently untrue.  Mr. Speaker, he has stated something that has never been stated by me throughout any of my discussions with respect to the foster parent issue.

      I ask him to read Hansard, in which I say:  " . . . there are many, many Manitobans who love and care for children and who will continue to provide that service for the funding that is available."

      At no time in my remarks did I say that they could be replaced, and I would ask him not to continue with that falsehood.

Mr. Speaker:  The honourable First Minister does not have a point of order.  It was a dispute over the facts.

* * *

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, I would refer the Premier to many, many media statements yesterday and today, and let me‑‑

Some Honourable Members:  Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Premier why, in his comments about what he said in Hansard, he did not read out:  "I regret the attitude that has been taken by the foster parents' association, but we will indeed find foster care . . . ."

      He only read the rest of his sentence, Mr. Speaker.  The bottom line‑‑and I accept the Premier's words, but what he has said to the foster parents of Manitoba, he has set a tone of confrontation, of no respect for the foster parents' association and no respect for foster parents.

      I would ask the Premier to meet in partnership with the foster parents' association and get a long‑term agreement with the foster parents' association rather than having this confrontation and rhetoric between the Premier and the foster parents of Manitoba.

Mr. Filmon:  Mr. Speaker, one of the first issues that we as government were confronted with in 1988 was the woefully low and inadequate rates that were paid to foster parents in the province of Manitoba, rates that we inherited from the government opposite, the New Democratic government throughout the '80s, that had done absolutely nothing and in fact had foster parent rates at amongst the lowest in the country.

      We, in consultation with them over the space of the last five years, have increased not only the rates to foster parents but indeed the special payments that allowed for children who had been previously institutionalized to be cared for because of substantial increase in the special needs rates that were built into those.  Even the basic rates were increased so dramatically that today they are, even with the reduction that is being protested, third highest in the country, because we care about the work of foster parents.  We care about the contribution they make, and we care about the needs that are there for the children.

      I repeat, this is the province of Manitoba, where the cost of living is the eighth in the country, and they are being paid, even after these reductions, the third highest rates for foster care in the country, Mr. Speaker.  We believe that given the financial circumstances that we are faced with, we are doing what we can do to ensure that the needs are being met and that the rates are reasonable.

 

Foster Families

Rate Negotiations

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, the Premier did not answer the question.  I asked the Premier whether he would lower his rhetoric, lower his confrontation, lower his unilateral action and meet in partnership with the foster parents' association of Manitoba, and try to arrive at a long‑term consensus to maintain the supports for foster children, and to maintain a foster parent program that is working to keep kids out of high‑cost institutions and keep kids, on the short run, out of hotels.

      Will the Premier agree to meet and negotiate with the foster parents' association, negotiate with those people in a partnership way, Mr. Speaker, rather than the unilateral, confrontational approach that this government is taking with those very vital services for Manitobans?

* (1340)

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, it is not I who is engaging in rhetoric or confrontation.  It is not I who is threatening that foster parents will withdraw services.  It is not I who is talking about hotels and other accommodation.  It is the Leader of the Opposition who is fomenting that discontent and who is using that exaggerated rhetoric and indeed that confrontational approach.  I have never had that approach.

      It is I and my government who met before to settle the problems that were left for us by the New Democrats and who entered into an agreement to raise the rates to levels that are now more than comparable, in fact, well above those rates that are paid by most other provinces in Canada.  It is under those circumstances that we believe that those rates are sufficient to meet the needs and to meet the need for continuing foster care in this province.

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, my question to the Premier is:  Why will he not meet and have a partnership?  Is "partnership" rhetoric? Partnership is vital for foster parents.

      We are just asking the Premier to sit down with the foster parents' association and the foster parents of this province to try to have a partnership for our children, because it is absolutely essential that we not have confrontation between the Premier and the foster parents' association, as we see right now in this province. [interjection] Well, the government's own officials are now talking about the need for receiving homes, hotels and other short‑term crisis measures rather than having the long‑term emotional care which is much more cost‑effective for all of us than what we have in place now.

      So I would ask the Premier again:  Yes or no, will he sit down with the foster parents' association of Manitoba, sit down directly with them?  He says they solved the problems in partnership before.  That is the best way to go, Mr. Speaker. Will he sit down in partnership with the foster parents' association, or is he going to continue to ignore the association and have confrontation with the parents and children of this province?

Mr. Filmon:  Mr. Speaker, I am not ignoring the association.  We have a minister responsible for Family Services who is responsible for the liaison and the dialogue with this organization, as he is with any other organization that comes under the responsibility of his ministry.  That is the term of minister responsible.  He is responsible for those areas.

      In addition to that, of course, I will say that if the purpose of the meeting is simply to increase rates at a time when we do not have the resources to do that, Mr. Speaker, that will not‑‑

Some Honourable Members:  Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

Mr. Filmon:  Mr. Speaker, as I have said before, we are paying rates that are the third highest in Canada.  We are paying rates that exceed those of most other provinces.  We have not only increased basic rates, but we have provided substantially increased resources for the special requirements of children with special needs.  Under those circumstances, we believe that the government has not only been fair and reasonable, but has acted in a better fashion than most other governments in this country.

* (1345)

 

Department of Family Services

Reduced Workweek

 

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows):  Mr. Speaker, we have the budget of the Department of Family Services.  We see that there is an increase in salaries while at the same time there is a decrease in maintenance of children and external agencies of over $3 million.  I believe this budget is not well thought out.  The staff are already overworked.  They have very high caseloads, and studies show that they are 200 percent understaffed.  Child and Family Services staff, because of a decision and a bill coming in by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), may be forced to take 10 days off like other civil servants.

      I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services if he has thought through and if he has a rational plan for deciding how to deliver services to children and families with fewer staff working fewer hours with high caseloads that they are having difficulty meeting now.  What is your plan?  How are you going to do it?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, last week I met with the board chairs and the executive directors of the Winnipeg Child and Family Services agencies,. the central Manitoba agency and the Westman agency to discuss the budget initiatives that we have tabled in the House here and that we are anxious to get into Estimates for further discussion over.  The executive directors and presidents have indicated that they will work with us to plan their work schedules, and even though we are all facing difficult times, the feeling was, it was a manageable issue.

 

Budget Decisions

 

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows):  Mr. Speaker, can the minister tell the House how and where he plans to save $3 million on the maintenance of children when there have been changes to child care fees, to nursery school fees, the elimination of funding to the foster parent association, the Indian and Metis friendship centres and MAPO, all of which are providing preventative services, resources in the community, all of which are provided more cheaply, all of which keep children out of care?

      How does this minister plan to save money when the alternative is better than taking children into care?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, we have indicated, in comments following the announcement that the Finance minister made two weeks ago on some of the budget decisions, that we will work with the communities to maintain the vital services that these organizations perform‑‑and that your Leader has indicated the difficult decisions and difficult choices that all governments have to make.  We have made those choices where they will not impact directly on the services provided for children.

Mr. Martindale:  Mr. Speaker, I am afraid that all of these decisions are going to negatively impact on the lives of children.  How does this minister plan to meet the needs of children and cut the budget when the decisions of this government will increase the cost, as children will be staying in care longer because, for example, the courts may be closed on Friday, so children will be staying in care over the weekend?  Fewer parents will be‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member has put his question.

Mr. Gilleshammer:  I am pleased that the member wants to get into the Budget Debate, and that is precisely why we presented that information here in the House last week.  I indicated in my first answer that in meeting with the chairpeople of the Child and Family Services agencies and the executive directors, they felt that they could work with us to resolve some of the issues around salary for the staff who work there and some of our other budget decisions and continue to have a very good workable system here in Manitoba.

 

Foster Families

Rate Negotiations

 

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier.

      I am going to quote from the Premier's own words of August 24, 1988:  "We are providing an increase that will give foster parents of Manitoba the second‑highest rates for the care of foster children in country.  We are giving them the largest increase that has been given to them since the early Eighties. We are doing that because we believe it is important to establish a good relationship.  We know that we cannot take care of neglect and the perhaps inadequate support that they got over the past six‑and‑a‑half years, but we are doing our best.  To show our good faith, we have indicated that we are prepared to continue to negotiate with them about greater increases for the next Budget year.  But for this Budget year, to show our good faith and to show our support for them and our appreciation for what they do, we have put forth an increase of 12.5 percent, which brings them to a level of being the second highest in the country.  We think that is a good step in the right direction."

      My question to the Premier is:  If he thought it was a good step in the right direction in 1988 because it was cost‑effective as well as it was quality care, why has he changed his mind?

* (1350)

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  I have not changed my mind.  The fact is that we have raised the rates to the level now where they do meet those needs that were not met before under the New Democrats.  Now, Mr. Speaker, we are in a situation where, for a province whose cost of living is eighth highest in the country, we are providing support that has them at the third highest in the country.  That is a reasonable balance; that is a reasonable approach.

      In addition to all of the increases that have been made over the past five years, budget after budget, to foster care rates, we have also increased special needs rates as well, and that provides for the kind of support that we believe appropriate today and is a vastly different situation than that which I was speaking about in 1988 on August 24.

 

Manitoba Foster Family Association Funding

 

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  He was taking pride in the fact that he thought his government was in the upper levels, in the second place he talked about.  He is now quite deliberately making them third place, and he says that is good enough.

      Interestingly enough, if you listen to the foster parents out there today, their major concern was not about per diems.  Their major concern was about their association which provides them with support.  Now if the Premier is in a tight financial squeeze, why has he chosen to take away from these foster families the only support they have, which is the Manitoba Foster Family Association?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Now, Mr. Speaker, we have a different approach being taken by the Leader of the Liberal Party.  She is now talking that the priority is not care of the children, it is care of the association.

 

Point of Order

 

Mrs. Carstairs:  On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the Premier knows full well that that was not the question I asked him.  The question I asked him very clearly was why has he taken away the support of these parents.

Mr. Speaker:  The honourable Leader of the second opposition party does not have a point of order.  It is clearly a dispute over the facts.

* * *

Mr. Filmon:  Mr. Speaker, we are and continue to be concerned to ensure that the rates that are paid are sufficient to meet the needs of caring for the children.  That is our first priority. That is what I have been speaking about in my answers to previous questions.

      I note that in today's Winnipeg Free Press, or perhaps it was yesterday's‑‑no it was today's, Mr. Speaker‑‑it lists the various functions of the foster parents' association.  It lists five of them.  The first one is advocacy for foster parents coping with false abuse.  The second is advocacy for foster parents in conflict with child welfare.  The third is lobby group to negotiate with province on reasonable rates.  The fourth is lobby group that negotiated the first damage compensation, and fifth is training and education for foster parents.

      It has already been said here in this House, by the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer), that the funding for training and education for foster parents‑‑special funding has been earmarked for the Child and Family Services agencies, Mr. Speaker, to ensure that that function is taken care of.

      We are not talking about the care and the nurturing of the children.  We are talking about advocacy and lobby as a priority over care of the children, in the mind of the Leader of the Liberal Party.

Mrs. Carstairs:  Mr. Speaker, Child and Family Services, according to the Detailed Estimates on Child and Family Support, has been reduced from $96 million to $92 million.  That is $4 million less, not more money, less money‑‑more tasks, more functions, less money.

      Mr. Speaker, it is very clear to the foster families that they need support.  They need to have an organization to which they can turn to support their needs as foster families.

      Why is this First Minister, along with his government, taking away that one support they have that provides them with counselling, training, accepts 700 to 1,000 calls per month from foster families seeking assurance and seeking support?  Why is he taking that away from them?

Mr. Filmon:  Mr. Speaker, we have said before that those supports for counselling and training are going to be available through the Child and Family Services agencies in Manitoba.

* (1355)

 

Manitoba Foster Family Association Funding

 

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson):  Mr. Speaker, last week I did something the Premier has refused to do.  I spoke to foster parents in northern Manitoba.

      Today I went outside of this Legislature, as did many MLAs, and I talked to some of the foster parents, people, some of whom were foster kids themselves, who are extremely concerned about what this government is doing, former foster kids who are now foster parents.  It is hard to express to the Premier the sense of betrayal, Mr. Speaker, the anger of people who found out from the media last week that not only were rates being cut to foster kids, but the association which they have worked so hard to support has had its funding eliminated.

      I would like to just ask one question to the Premier, and that is:  When will he end the emotional blackmail that is clearly the tactic of this government, Mr. Speaker, stop the cuts to the Manitoba Foster Family Association and sit down and work in partnership with foster families in Manitoba?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, I know that it is all well and good from their position of irresponsibility for members of the New Democratic party who, when they were in government, starved foster families in this province and now, in their hypocritical fashion, try and take on the mantle of being the champion of the foster families.

      Mr. Speaker, that kind of lack of credibility is why the opposition party is where it is, because they have no integrity, they have no accountability and they have no credibility to be able to make that kind of statement.

      It is this government that increased the rates of foster parents to the point that they are now third highest in the country.  It is this government that remains committed to paying rates that are fair and reasonable to the foster families of this province.

Mr. Ashton:  This talk about integrity, Mr. Speaker, from a government that silences groups that have the nerve to lobby and advocate and express the views of the people they represent, he has no business lecturing us on integrity.

 

Foster Families

Rate Reduction

 

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson):  I want to ask a very specific question on rates.  I want to ask the Premier.  He is asking foster parents to take two bucks per diem away from children.  I have a list here of the specific breakdown of where the funding goes.  It does not go to foster parents; it goes to foster kids.

      I would like to ask where the Premier is saying that $2 should be taken from.  Should it be from food, should it be from health and personal care, should it be replacement clothing? Where do the foster parents take that $2 a day away from the foster kids, that this government is dictating they do?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, the funding that is provided in other provinces is far less than is provided for foster parents in Manitoba.  I would submit to the honourable member that this money does flow to the foster parent for the use in raising that child and working with that child.  We feel that the sum of money that is flowed tax free to the foster parent is sufficient.  It is still $3 a day more than in the province of Saskatchewan, and we feel there are sufficient funds there to look after those children.  Of course, where there are special rate funds for handicapped children or children with special problems, that fee has not been touched with this budget announcement.

Mr. Ashton:  Mr. Speaker, the minister does not understand.  He talks about this being tax free.  It is not an income to foster parents.

      I ask the same question again, because the foster parents want an answer.  Where do they take the $2‑a‑day cut from?  What do they cut out that they are currently providing to the foster kids.  What do they cut?  Food, health care, what do they cut?

Mr. Gilleshammer:  Mr. Speaker, those funds flow as a lump sum to the foster parent, and the foster parent will have the discretion to make whatever adjustments are required to provide for that child within that global funding that is provided.

* (1400)

 

Child Care Services Funding

 

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns):  You will be interested to know, Mr. Speaker, that the Canadian Council on Social Development noted in a recent report that perhaps the greatest impediment to employment outside the home is the lack of affordable, accessible and flexible child care options for low income and moderate income individuals, and that the lack of child care is the No. 1 barrier to self‑reliance for sole‑support parents receiving social assistance.

      So what does this government do, Mr. Speaker?  It brings in cutbacks to child care that in fact act as barriers to obtaining and maintaining employment and barriers to being self‑reliant as opposed to being on social assistance.

      I want to ask this government:  Why would it introduce child care cutbacks and a policy that will actually result in increased unemployment, increased numbers on social assistance and increased poverty?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, last fall I had the privilege and pleasure of being at a national daycare conference in Brandon, where a report was presented by the Canadian Day Care Advocacy Association on statistics that they had gathered from all jurisdictions in this country.  I think we can be proud in Manitoba of having the second highest hourly wages for people who work in daycares.

      We have the lowest turnover rate, and the convention recognizes that Manitoba has legislation and in place daycare homes and institutions within the province that provide the highest quality care in all of the country.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis:  We do not expect the government to understand the human impact of its cutbacks, but we would hope it would have some economic rationale for its decisions.

      I want to ask the minister then, because we would assume that there was some kind of study done before embarking upon these kind of cutbacks:  Will the minister table for the benefit of this House and all Manitobans the impact study done of its cutbacks to daycare showing how many centres might be forced to close, how many students would have to give up education and training programs, how many low income earners would be added to welfare rolls and how many more children will be forced into poverty?

Mr. Gilleshammer:  Mr. Speaker, the impact is that the funding that is reduced in the grant level is replaced in the increased subsidies, and we have asked parents who have subsidized children in care to pay $1.40 a day for that care.  Government provides, in some cases, $7,000 or $8,000 for an individual child. Sometimes it is $12,000 to $15,000 per family to look after those children who are in care.

      We have 10,000 subsidized spaces where the government pays substantial amounts.  In this province alone, the amount dedicated to daycare has gone from around $26 million in 1988 to over $50 million this current budget year.  Our commitment has been substantial.  We have put millions and millions of dollars into daycare, and we still maintain the highest standards of any daycare operation in this country.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis:  I am wondering if the minister is aware that the percentage of families in Manitoba who would be poor without the earnings of both earners in the family is 22.6 percent.

      I want to ask him:  Is this government intent on cutting daycare to the point where one spouse of every two‑earner low income family may be forced out of the paid labour force, which would result in doubling the poverty rate and the number of poor families in Manitoba?

Mr. Gilleshammer:  Mr. Speaker, that 100 percent increase in funding that daycare has seen over the last five years has created additional spaces in daycare homes and in daycare centres.  It has allowed more and more people to access subsidies in this province.  We have over 10,000 children now who are in subsidized spaces in daycare.

      I would point out to you that our $50 million is a tremendous commitment on the part of this government towards daycare, three times what the Province of Saskatchewan spends on daycare.

 

Manitoba Foster Family Association

Parental Support

 

      Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne):  When you voluntarily take into your home‑‑Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Premier to listen to this‑‑an abused child, you place yourself and your entire family at risk.

      The number of people willing to foster has nearly doubled since the Manitoba Foster Family Association came into existence.  Part of the problem is, and this is what I think the government is missing, when they talk about advocacy, they are talking about helping parents when their children are accused of sexually abusing the foster child, which does occur from these very vulnerable kids.  The agency cannot protect them because the agency is in as the investigator, as the prosecutor of the abuser.  So who protects the family, and who protects the parents' kids?  That is the question here.  You have taken away that protection.

      Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Premier that question:  Who protects the parents?

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member has put his question.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  As someone who has been a foster parent himself, I can tell the member for Osborne, I do not need to be lectured to about what foster parents do for children.  In his very political and sanctimonious way, Mr. Speaker, I think he is denigrating the debate on this issue.  There continue to be avenues for‑‑

Some Honourable Members:  Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

Mr. Filmon:  Mr. Speaker, I will let the member ask his next question.

Mr. Alcock:  Mr. Speaker, the Premier is not the only person who has fostered in this province.  The people who do foster in this province are saying:  It is not about rates; you can negotiate with us.  It is about support; it is about protection; it is about training.  We are prepared to put ourselves at risk, but we need support.

      I ask the Premier:  Who provides that support now that he has cut the association?

Mr. Filmon:  As I have indicated before, funds have been specifically earmarked with Child and Family Services agencies to be able to provide‑‑[interjection] Mr. Speaker, if the member wants me to answer the question, let him listen instead of interrupting like a bully. [interjection] He finds it funny. Maybe because he is now the big federal candidate for the Liberal Party, he thinks he can get away with anything.  The fact of the matter is‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

 

Point of Order

 

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader):  Mr. Speaker, I do not think it is particularly relevant to refer to any member in terms of any other aspirations they may have, but it is particularly not appropriate for the Premier to talk about a member being a bully.  Let us deal with straightforward questions and answers in Question Period and cut that kind of‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member does not have a point of order.

* * *

Mr. Filmon:  Mr. Speaker, as I have said before, there is money provided and specifically earmarked to Child and Family Services agencies for the training functions and the counselling functions with respect to questions.  There will continue to be funding provided for liability insurance, for Legal Aid assistance programs, for damage compensation plans.  There will continue to be support provided for the various functions to foster families, and there is in fact a Child Advocate within the Province of Manitoba for issues that have been raised by the member in his question.

Mr. Alcock:  Mr. Speaker, the Premier missed the point in '88, and he missed it again now.  The list he read off, the thing he took exception to in his first question was advocacy.  Advocacy, in this instance, means protection.  It is not training support.

      Who provides that when the agencies are in conflict with the interests of the foster parents?

* (1410)

Mr. Filmon:  I gave him the answer to that question in the last one. [interjection] Yes, I did.

 

Flin Flon/Creighton Crisis Centre

Meeting Request

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  Mr. Speaker, it is not only foster parents or friendship centres or daycares that are under attack. The Minister of Family Services announced some two weeks ago now that the crisis centre, the only crisis centre in the province that has had its funding completely withdrawn, will be closing.

      My question is to the Minister of Family Services.  Will the minister attend with me a public meeting dealing with the crisis that the community of Flin Flon, the women of Flin Flon, abused and potentially abused families in Flin Flon are going to have when this crisis centre closes at the end of this month?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, I indicated in questions on this topic last week that we are looking at a delivery system on a regional basis for Family Dispute Services.  We have been in touch with, not only staff from within our department of Family Dispute, but also the shelter directors association.  We feel that while there will be reduced access in the immediate Flin Flon area‑‑and we have also alerted the Province of Saskatchewan, who were the primary users of that shelter‑‑there are services available.  I also indicated to the member that the RCMP have enhanced services there to make the connection with the shelter at The Pas for anyone in need of those services.

Mr. Storie:  Mr. Speaker, the minister has been told in no uncertain terms that that is nonsense.

      Mr. Speaker, my question:  Will the minister now come and explain to the families who may be in crisis, to the women whose lives may be in jeopardy the rationale for the closing of the Flin Flon/Creighton Crisis Centre?  Will he explain to the women in that community how they are going to access services some two hours away?

Mr. Gilleshammer:  Mr. Speaker, one of the member's colleagues invited me to go to The Pas today on another issue, and because of cabinet and because of meetings here with the Foster Family Association at noon, I was not able to do that.  If I am not able to go, we will have staff attend that.

 

Flin Flon/Creighton Crisis Centre

Meeting Request

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  Mr. Speaker, my final question is to the Minister responsible for the Status of Women.

      This government has announced a zero tolerance policy when it comes to abuse.  This government talks a great deal about the need for protecting families who are victims of violence.

      Will the Minister responsible for the Status of Women attend the meeting in Flin Flon to explain to the families and the women who may fear for their lives and the safety of their children how this closure is going to protect women in that community?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister responsible for the Status of Women):  Mr. Speaker, this government has great concern about the safety of women and indeed children throughout the province of Manitoba.

      As the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) has indicated, we have had to make some very difficult decisions. The shelter in Flin Flon/Creighton, in fact, that served the majority of women from the province of Saskatchewan, Mr. Speaker, will be serviced by enhanced services in The Pas, enhanced services by the RCMP.

      We have every confidence that we will attempt in every way to ensure that the women in the Flin Flon and immediate area are served through a regional process that has been put in place by the Department of Family Services and the minister.

 

Point of Order

 

Mr. Storie:  Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, does the minister know where Flin Flon is?  Can the minister explain‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member does not have a point of order.

* * *

Mrs. Mitchelson:  Mr. Speaker, I believe I probably visited Flin Flon more recently than the member who represents the area.

 

Street Kids and Youth Program

Alternative Programs

 

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  Mr. Speaker, this government does not seem to understand that the less support you have for foster families the more at‑risk youth you are going to have, the more at‑risk youth on the streets.  I have been asking questions of this government related to the serious costs and problems of young people who are out of work, out of school and living off the streets.

      Today, I have the annual report from the YMCA, which sponsors the Street Kids and Youth project, Mr. Speaker, which shows that in 1991 there were 1,120 young people and in 1992 there were 6,600 young people who used the service of this agency, which this government is going to allow to close.

      My question, Mr. Speaker, is:  How is this government going to meet the needs of the ever‑increasing demand of the ever‑increasing number of young people on the streets in Winnipeg?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, by continuing to fund the many, many organizations which provide services to street children, whether it is the Family Services agencies, whether it is places like the Children's Home of Winnipeg, Rossbrook House and others.

      We are not in a position to take on additional responsibilities that other funders have started and now see fit to reduce that funding.  We will continue to fund many of the organizations that we have funded in the past to provide those services.

Ms. Cerilli:  Mr. Speaker, this government has the legal responsibility‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member for Radisson has time for one very short question.

Ms. Cerilli:  Is this government telling the House that its bottom‑line budgeting process is more important than its legal responsibility to provide food, shelter and clothing for minors in the province of Manitoba?  That is what it is telling us.

Mr. Speaker:  Time for Oral Questions has expired.

 

ORDERS OF THE DAY

 

Hon. Clayton Manness (Governme