LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Tuesday, April 13, 1993

 

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

 

PRAYERS

     

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

       

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

       

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Ms. Wowchuk).  It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed]

Mr. Clerk (William Remnant):  The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

       WHEREAS the United Nations has declared 1993 the International Year of the World's Indigenous People with the theme, "Indigenous People:  a new partnership"; and

       WHEREAS the provincial government has totally discontinued funding to all friendship centres; and

       WHEREAS the provincial government has stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and

       WHEREAS the elimination of all funding to friendship centres will result in the loss of many jobs as well as the services and programs provided, such as:  assistance to the elderly, the homeless, youth programming, the socially disadvantaged, families in crisis, education, recreation and cultural programming, housing relocation, fine options, counselling, court assistance, advocacy;

       WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Family Services minister to consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba.

* * *

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Martindale).  It complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed]

Mr. Clerk:  The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

       WHEREAS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and

       WHEREAS over 1,000 young adults are currently attempting to get off welfare and upgrade their education through the student social allowances program; and

       WHEREAS Winnipeg already has the highest number of people on welfare in decades; and

       WHEREAS the provincial government has already changed social assistance rules resulting in increased welfare costs for the City of Winnipeg; and

       WHEREAS the provincial government is now proposing to eliminate the student social allowances program; and

       WHEREAS eliminating the student social allowances program will result in more than a thousand young people being forced onto city welfare with no means of getting further full‑time education, resulting in more long‑term costs for city taxpayers.

       WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider restoring funding of the student social allowances program.

* (1335)

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Santos).  It complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed]

Mr. Clerk:  The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

       WHEREAS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and

       WHEREAS over 1,000 young adults are currently attempting to get off welfare and upgrade their education through the student social allowances program; and

       WHEREAS Winnipeg already has the highest number of people on welfare in decades; and

       WHEREAS the provincial government has already changed social assistance rules resulting in increased welfare costs for the City of Winnipeg; and

       WHEREAS the provincial government is now proposing to eliminate the student social allowances program; and

       WHEREAS eliminating the student social allowances program will result in more than a thousand young people being forced onto city welfare with no means of getting further full‑time education, resulting in more long‑term costs for city taxpayers.

       WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider restoring funding of the student social allowances program.

 

Introduction of Guests

 

Mr. Speaker:  Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery and also to the translation booth area, where we have 12 visitors from the Riverton Adult Day Care.  They are under the direction of Leslee Gislason.  These visitors live in the constituency of the honourable member for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans).

       Also this afternoon, from Churchill High School we have thirty Grade 9 students under the direction of Ms. Terri Gartner.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock).

       On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon.

 

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

 

Provincial Deficit

Government Figure

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon).

       Comments made by the member for Rossmere (Mr. Neufeld) last week in his speech I think are of concern to members opposite. The member for Rossmere, in talking about the budget and the budget deficit of '92 and '93, spoke about the fact that the $167 million is noted in the budget of the government, a hundred million of which pertains to prior years, which tells me that while the hundred million dollars may not be in this year's deficit, there is another hundred million dollars in debt that was not there in 1992, March 31.

       You might say, and I quote, that the deficit this year was not 562 but was indeed 862.

       That is the difference between last year's debt and this year's debt.

       I would like to ask the Premier:  What will the deficit be when the Provincial Auditor ultimately reports on the government finances?  Will it be 562 that the Premier announced in the budget?  Will it be 762, or will it be $862 million, as quoted by the member for Rossmere in a speech last week?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  I am glad that the Leader of the Opposition finally is interested in something called "deficit."  I know when he was part of the Treasury Bench of the former government, he did not care one little bit about deficits.  As a matter of fact, he proudly indicates that maybe the Pawley administration, in their last gasp of life, maybe went too far.

       Mr. Speaker, with respect to the question, the member for Rossmere (Mr. Neufeld) and I discussed this issue before the member for Rossmere made his presentation in debate the other day.  As I indicated to him, as has been the longstanding accounting practice of this province, long before we came to government, that when the change, as a result of a methodological change as this was, with respect to the census adjustment‑‑that it would be treated as an extraordinary liability.

       Now, if it is a missed estimate with respect to income tax, either personal or corporate, by that time the year‑end numbers reflect that change.  But in this case where you had a significant adjustment as a result of a methodological change, we rightly took $67 million of that and showed that as an add‑on to our deficit.  Now, I would indicate to the member that the Provinces of Saskatchewan and Quebec are recording the adjustments on a cash basis, and they will not record any portion as against '92 and '93.  So when you look at the land, survey the land, Mr. Speaker, and you see how we have accounted for this change in methodology, you will see that basically the most open government in presenting an add‑on is the Province of Manitoba.

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, I guess the Premier (Mr. Filmon) will want to answer the question of why the Manitoba government had an 8.8 percent increase in their last year's budget in equalization and why provinces like Saskatchewan had a decline in revenue of 2.2 percent in their budgets.  Perhaps that will explain the note, but the Minister of Finance did not answer the question, where the $100 million was going to show.

       Was it going to show in the deficit of 862?  Was it just going to float out there as a liability?  He did not answer the question of how the Auditor will show that and I guess we will see ultimately when the Auditor reports.  Suffice it to say, it is the highest deficit as a percentage of our gross domestic product of any government in the history of running this province.

 

Population Statistics

Impact on Equalization Payments

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, the government has spent a lot of time blaming all their fiscal woes on equalization but not talking about their population and their lack of population growth.

       I would like to ask the Premier:  In light of the fact that in the '80s equalization payments, in some part, grew because the population of Manitoba grew modestly as a percentage of the population of Canada‑‑and now we see that Manitoba's population is declining as a percentage and shrinking as a percentage of Canadian population, thus impacting on equalization‑‑how much of the population numbers is reflected in the equalization decline in terms of the economic performance and lack of population growth in the province?

* (1340)

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the NDP does not put forward a proper depiction of the reality today.  There is only one province in Canada today that has a growing population, and that is the province of British Columbia.  All other nine provinces do not have a natural growth associated with their population, and that is unfortunate.  No, that is true.  It was not true six, eight months ago, when you had growth also in P.E.I., but the reality is today, there is no net growth in population growth, natural growth, other than in British Columbia.

       So I say to the member, if he is trying to paint the case that somehow Manitoba is different than any other province, the reality is that is not the case.  He asks what share we have now as compared to a few years ago.  All I know is, in the overadjustments with respect to the change in the methodology, 3 percent uncounted people by the new methodology increased, taking in the census of the nation up to roughly 28 million people.  Of that share, we were credited, not with 3 percent, but something less, in the order of, it seems to me, 2.1.  It was on that basis, on that very minute basis, Mr. Speaker, that there was such a swing, such an incredible swing in the amount of equalization payments made to us.

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, I did not ask the question on out‑migration and net migration.  The population of Manitoba is actually growing about 3,000 per year, and it was growing in the 1980s about 8,000 per year.  We are now shrinking as a percentage of the Canadian population, whereas in the '80s we were growing as a percentage of the Canadian population.  Thus, our equalization payments went up in the '80s and they are going down in the '90s, unfortunately.  Manitoba's population is growing. The answer the Minister of Finance gave is not correct.

 

Provincial Deficit

Impact on Economic Performance

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, a final question to the Premier:  Some $700 million of the deficit for 1992‑93 is outside of the equalization decline of $167 million, close to 696 to be exact is a deficit outside of the equalization changes.  We have been saying for some time now that the last place economic performance in 1991 would have an impact on our bottom line.

       I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon):  What is the impact on the deficit of the economic performance of the province, when we were in last place in 1991 and we are projected under the government's own budget to be in seventh place in 1992?  What is the result of the lack of economic activity on the $700 million in deficit, in the '92‑93 fiscal year?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Mr. Speaker, the member is twisting all of these various areas of measurement and trying to then say, okay, what direct impact is the result of certain changes.  I say to him that as far as last year's budget, if he wants to talk about the deficit breakdown, we brought in on the expenditure side in '92‑93 and we are bang on with respect to expenditures.  On the revenue side we acknowledged, as we said fully within the budgetary document, that $130 million of that shortfall was as a result of the federal forecast associated with the economy.  Then another $30 million was the result of debt, the value of the Canadian dollar softening.  Then we took a $67‑million charge, as against the new methodology associated with the Stats Canada review.

       Mr. Speaker, I had a conference call this morning with upwards of 200 investors around the world who lauded this province and the budget it brought down because of the fact hard decisions were made, the fact that tax increases were not used as has been the case in other provinces.  They acknowledged that we held down the provincial sales tax at 7 percent and indeed that we were following the right course.  It was on that basis that they will continue to lend us money.  I would think particularly the arch borrower of money who sits across the way, that that would be very important news to him.

* (1345)

 

Motor Coach Industries

Dial Corporation Competition

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  Mr. Speaker, perhaps the 200 investors that the Minister of Finance was speaking to would not have been nearly so impressed if the Minister of Finance would have told them that the manufacturing base in the province is disappearing, that last year we lost 4,000 manufacturing jobs and we are about to lose more.

       Mr. Speaker, on March 12, the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism said in a response to our Leader that the purchase of a bus manufacturing plant in Mexico by Dial Corporation would have no impact on the operations of Motor Coach Industries in Winnipeg.  Today's Globe and Mail indicates that at a shareholders' meeting, Dial Corporation had asked shareholders to vote on a plan to get out of the bus body manufacturing business of Motor Coach Industries in Winnipeg.

       Can the minister indicate whether that will have an impact on the 1,200 jobs approximately that Motor Coach employs in the city of Winnipeg and the province?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, once again the member for Flin Flon is totally inaccurate in his preamble when he compares Manitoba's performance in manufacturing jobs, again as it relates to all of Canada.  He continually forgets and fails to look beyond the borders or outside of this room in terms of what is happening nationally, in terms of the kinds of losses that are occurring in provinces like Ontario.  If you look at Manitoba's job performance in manufacturing over the last couple of years, relative to the rest of Canada, we do fair reasonably well.

       In terms of his specific question, Mr. Speaker, at the time of previous questions in this House we had direct contact with Motor Coach and we are assured that the acquisition that the honourable member is referring to will have no impact on their operations here in Manitoba.

Mr. Storie:  Mr. Speaker, the fact is that Motor Coach is not the sole determinant of what is going to happen.  The parent corporation now owns a bus manufacturing plant in Mexico.  The Alberta Court of Queen's Bench has already ruled that the Dial Corporation plan to distribute MCI shares to Dial Corporation shareholders is approved.

       Mr. Speaker, can the minister tell this House what impact that conflict, the clear conflict that Dial Corporation now has because it has a bus manufacturing plant in Winnipeg, with its operations in Winnipeg, what conflict that is going to have for the working people who work for MCI in Winnipeg?

Mr. Stefanson:  Mr. Speaker, as I indicated at the time of the previous allegations made by the NDP in terms of the impact on Motor Coach here in Manitoba, once again to bring unfounded rumours and innuendoes and suggestions to this House in terms of employment levels at any operation in Manitoba does not do justice to the people working at that facility or to the people who operate that facility.

       We had direct contact with Motor Coach at that time in terms of the investment in Mexico, of which there is approximately a 10 percent investment, and the clear indication from senior officials with Motor Coach was that it will have no negative impact.  In fact, they view it, in the short term, as a positive impact on their operation here in Manitoba in terms of mutual benefits between the two operations.

Mr. Storie:  The minister has not yet indicated whether in fact he has contacted any of the principals who will have an impact on any future MCI operations in Manitoba.  The fact is that since the announcement the minister has indicated that he has done nothing.

       Will the minister now meet with principals of Dial Corporation to ensure that their long‑range plans do not include competing directly with MCI's operations in Manitoba and the potential loss of 1,000 or 1,200 jobs?

Mr. Stefanson:  Mr. Speaker, unlike the member for Flin Flon and his style of government in his day, we are in ongoing and continual contact with businesses throughout Manitoba on a day‑to‑day basis.  We pride ourselves on the relationship that we have with business in Manitoba because of the kinds of things we are doing in this province in terms of holding the line on personal, corporate and other taxes in this province.

       When we deal with Motor Coach Industries we deal with their senior officials, and we were given assurances that the issue that is being addressed here today will have no negative impact on their operation in Manitoba and possibly has the opportunity for additional economic activity here at their facility in Manitoba.

* (1350)

 

Budget Fairness

 

Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James):  Mr. Speaker, despite the rantings of the NDP, no one seriously today says that the government does not have financial problems and does not need to show restraint in spending.  But the Premier (Mr. Filmon) defended his budget last Thursday as a fair budget.

       Today the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) is reported as defending that budget as impacting fairly on everyone.  He also said that there is no segment of society that will feel it any more than any other.  That is the defence of the budget, that it is fair and it impacts everyone equally.

       The truth is the expansion of the retail sales tax is a regressive, not a progressive, form of taxation.  It does not respect ability to pay.

       My question for the Minister of Finance:  How is the harmonization of the PST and the GST, which the minister has embarked on in this budget, consistent with any definition of progressive, fair taxation, and will he acknowledge that a consumption tax by definition impacts poor people more than it does wealthy people?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  If the member believes his rhetoric at all then he should be standing and lauding the government in its efforts to keep the sales tax rate at 7 percent.  There are Liberal governments elsewhere of course that have increased the rate as high as 11 percent and 12 percent.

       I can answer the question even more specifically by‑‑when the member uses the word "harmonization."  We are not taxing services, Mr. Speaker.  To put into place a system where the federal government would collect our provincial tax at the border we had to accept a broadening of the base‑‑no different than the province of New Brunswick, identical to the province of New Brunswick.

Mr. Edwards:  Mr. Speaker, it was a Conservative government in Ottawa that brought in a nation‑wide, regressive tax called the GST.

       Mr. Speaker, he has defended again the across‑the‑board increase or increase in taxes of $75 for every property owner in this province as fair.  My question for the minister:  Why again did he not respect the principles of progressive and fair taxation and raise the same revenue on a scale that took into consideration those who could afford to pay?

       He defended that by saying, we cannot tell if someone owns a small house; they may be rich.  Well, why did he not respect ability to pay in the imposing of a $75 increase in taxation on every Manitoba homeowner?

Mr. Manness:  Mr. Speaker, seeing the member is such a staunch supporter of the ability to pay, then I am sure he will support our measures on the expenditure side, particularly in the Department of Health, in the personal care homes, where we have introduced that method to a greater extent.  I imagine he and his party will be staunch supporters of that particular approach on the expenditure side.

       The member talks about the credit side and why is it we could not take into account and relate incomes to the supposed value of a home by way of assessment.  I ask him, if he would talk to some of his friends who are accountants and maybe do some of the tax filing, he would find out that there is a tremendous strong linkage as between the property tax credit, the cost‑of‑living tax credit and all of the other credits provided by the Province of Manitoba.

       One of the great difficulties that we had when we considered this whole area was that we would not impact in reducing at all the property tax credit, that we would minimize the impact on the working poor, whom we sense have to be protected the most through any taxation changes.  I am proud to say that for the most part, we were able to do that.

Mr. Edwards:  The fact is, you live in Tuxedo or the west end, you have got the same $75, Mr. Speaker.  That is the bottom line.

       Mr. Speaker, finally, for the minister‑‑he raises health care.  How is it fair to require patients who need home care services to pay for home care equipment under $50, like crutches, like colostomy bags?  How is it fair to charge those people that money when you have absolutely no criteria which respects ability to pay?  Will the minister admit that he is seeking to solve his financial woes on the backs of the poor and the elderly and the sick?

Mr. Manness:  Mr. Speaker, I will reiterate what I said last week.  Each and every one of us has an indebtedness of $11,500, and as much as the member would try and characterize this as the government's debt, this is the people's debt.  Therefore, every one of us in society has to make some contribution towards that debt.

       The member can try and pretend that we have a tax system that is not progressive.  We have one of the most progressive tax systems in the land.  We have the most progressive tax credit system in the land, and I am saying to him that there was no way of dismantling that short of reworking it and rewriting.  On that basis, when we take into account that everybody has to make some contribution to the indebtedness that we each have in this province, there was no alternative, and I am there to say that the budget is a fair document.

* (1355)

 

Red River Community College

Course Cancellations

 

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley):  Mr. Speaker, this government claims that it does not want to pass on a debt to our children, but this budget ensures that the young people of Manitoba are going to be paying now and forever as the doors to education, to higher education, to training, to literacy programs close to them.  Yet again Red River Community College has been forced to cut courses‑‑this time 17 programs and courses.

       I want to ask the Minister of Education:  Could she tell us how fewer courses, students with no places, unemployed teachers, how does this fit with the continued and apparently hollow rhetoric that we hear from both the federal and provincial Tories?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, our colleges have had to look at the kind of programming that they will offer, because a great deal of the programming that they offered was also underwritten by the federal government.  The federal government has decided that it will be changing the way that it funds training programs at our colleges, and they will be funding more programs as fee payers.  As a result of that, the colleges had to re‑examine what they could offer, but in addition, they also looked at enrollment in the colleges.  They also looked at how highly people were hired following their training at the colleges.  So a number of issues were taken into account by our community colleges.

 

Youth Employment

Programs Reductions

 

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley):  Mr. Speaker, will the minister explain why in her department she continues herself to cut youth employment programs, when this month youth unemployment has jumped from 12.9 percent to 15 percent, and we are not even yet seeing the impact of the lack of summer jobs for students?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  The labour market statistics, I believe, indicated that Manitoba had the highest youth participation in the country.  In addition, Mr. Speaker, we are still continuing to look at the employment programs that we have for students.  Let me just give her some numbers:  last year, Manitoba CareerStart, over 3,500 students; Student Temporary Employment, over 1,200 students.

 

Budget

Impact on Youth

 

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley):  Will the minister tell us the impact of the new housing tax, the additional gasoline tax, the extra tax on school supplies, the tax on journals, the increases in fees at colleges and universities, and the cuts to summer youth employment?  What is the collective impact of this on the young people of Manitoba?

 

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  We have not even begun to speak about summer employment for youth. I have just let the member know, and she can see in the budget, that we are certainly committed to youth employment at, particularly, summer jobs.  We are also continuing to be committed to our training programs and to accessibility to our universities, so I think the member better look again at the commitment that this government has.

 

St. Boniface Hospital

Layoffs

 

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):  Mr. Speaker, today we are advised that another 141 people will be laid off at St. Boniface Hospital.  In his November press release about health reform, the minister stated that 380 positions would be lost between Health Sciences Centre, St. Boniface, and less than a hundred people would actually lose their jobs as a result of reform.

       Are these additional 141 layoffs announced today part of that total or are they in addition to the layoffs already announced? Where are the community jobs to replace those laid‑off jobs?

* (1400)

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, the layoffs that were shared with the provincial government and with the respective unions this morning by St. Boniface Hospital are part of their ongoing downsizing and restructuring within that facility.  It is anticipated, and I think it might be appropriate to read for my honourable friend the communication that St. Boniface made in conjunction with advising my colleague the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik) about the layoffs.

       I will quote from their letter:  "The hospital has an established local Workforce Adjustment Committee.  Mr. Asselin of Industrial Adjustment Services; Mr. L. Schoomski, Department of Labour, and all unions are part of the committee.  Employer representatives on the committee include C. Savard, S. Shofer, S. Macdonald and D. McMorris."

       Mr. Speaker, clearly no one takes any particular joy in having a number of layoff notices go out, but St. Boniface is continuing internally to try and minimize the actual number of people affected by those layoff notices, as well as participating, Sir, with the provincial redeployment committee.

Mr. Chomiak:  Mr. Speaker, the minister did not answer the question.

       I will try another question.  Can the minister advise if the positions, the cuts at St. Boniface Hospital are as a result of the nearly $30‑million cut in funding to hospitals, personal care homes, et cetera, by this provincial government in its regressive budget?

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, without naturally accepting any of my honourable friend's rhetorical flourish around the question, I would indicate to my honourable friend that certainly St. Boniface Hospital is.  My honourable friend I believe supported‑‑at least his party supported the downsize and the reallocation of beds from St. Boniface to other hospitals and other institutions in Winnipeg.  This downsizing has led to a number of layoff notices previously announced and, Sir, today an additional number of layoff notices.

       I note my honourable friend seldom mentions that there were a significant number of new jobs and employment opportunities at Concordia Hospital with the commissioning of 60 new beds which are now in use at Concordia Hospital, or new employment opportunities at Deer Lodge with the commissioning of more and additional new beds, with the commissioning of new and additional capacity at Municipal Hospital.  My honourable friend never talks about those job opportunities.

Mr. Chomiak:  Mr. Speaker, I do not have to talk about it because the minister mentions it.  That is the only thing he can positively mention in this House and has been doing so for the past four years.

       Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary to the minister:  How can the minister justify forcing St. Boniface Hospital to pick up the expenses, hundreds of thousands of dollars in expenses, of American consultants to fly to Canada, to stay in our hotels, to eat meals while they lay off people from the hospitals who deliver the service to the patients?  How can he justify that?

Mr. Orchard:  I appreciate my honourable friend's, again, rhetorical flourish.  My honourable friend has yet to say that he disagrees with the process of restructuring at St. Boniface and Health Sciences Centre, that the boards and the senior management of those hospitals urged us to engage APM so they could undertake.  My honourable friend's seeming concern is that it is an American firm, and maybe my honourable friend would like to explain why the government that his front bench was all part of so embraced American consultants that they hired Drs. R.L. Kain and R.A. Kain of the University of Minnesota to subcontract and examine the home care department.  Is it only anti‑Americanism when they are in opposition and embracing the Americans when they are in government, Sir?

 

Education System

Federal Strategy Paper

 

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Education.  In today's Globe and Mail there was an article with respect to an increased role to be played by the federal government in the area of education.  I find that somewhat ironic in that in a referendum debate just last fall the federal government was willing to turn over responsibilities for all manpower training and education to the provinces.  It now appears that they have put their other foot down and now they would like to in fact play a role.

       The paper has apparently been distributed to the Council of Education Ministers for the provinces and the territories.  Can the Minister of Education tell this House if she has indeed a copy of this strategy paper, and will she share that strategy paper with the members of this House?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, the member has spoken about what she has read in a Globe and Mail article, and that article did not give the complete tone of the paper.  The paper did in fact stress the issue of federal‑provincial relations and the co‑operation and the national perspective which Ministers of Education are extremely interested in.  I do not have a copy at the moment, but when we receive a copy I will look at giving the member some information.

Mrs. Carstairs:  Mr. Speaker, if in fact the article does not reflect the complete tone of the paper, then presumably the Minister of Education has read the paper.  If she has read the paper, presumably she has the paper.  If she has the paper, why will she not distribute it today?

Mrs. Vodrey:  Mr. Speaker, at the last meeting of the Ministers of Education some of the information that was related to the paper was discussed by the ministers.  I do not have the paper at this moment.

       However, as I have said to the member, one of the issues of discussion was an issue of national perspectives.  I am aware that is of interest to that member.  I can tell her, too, that within education, Education ministers and those of us who are also responsible for labour market development as well are particularly interested in some of the issues of national perspectives.

       As many in this House know, we are also participating‑‑Manitoba is one of the participating provinces‑‑in an exam, the Student Achievement Indicators Project, and we will be looking at some of the national achievements of students across Canada, province to province.

Mrs. Carstairs:  Mr. Speaker, it would appear that the Council of Ministers, of which this Minister of Education is indeed a member, sent a response to the federal government on this strategy paper.  If they sent a response, presumably they have the paper, but they must also have a copy of the response.

       Will the Minister of Education transmit to the members of this House the response of the Ministers of Education to the federal strategy paper on education?

Mrs. Vodrey:  Mr. Speaker, a number of the issues that were covered in response were in response to the federal prosperity paper which the federal government has spoken about.  Within that, we did want to look at the participation and the co‑operation between provinces and the federal government on issues such as labour market development, the Stay‑in‑School Initiative, the Official Languages program and literacy programming.

       In addition, other issues, this province has already taken a leading role in terms of looking at education legislative reform in our Task Force on Distance Education.

 

Education System

Federal Strategy Paper

 

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  Mr. Speaker, as has just been discussed, the federal Conservative government is now indicating that it wants to assume a greater role in education, stick its nose into another area of the Canadian economy after making a mess out of almost every other area that it has jurisdiction‑‑and education at the post‑secondary level at this time.

       We think it is probably to implement their very frightening agenda that they have outlined in An Action Plan for Canada's Prosperity.  It is mistitled Inventing our Future.

       In light of the federal government's cutbacks in education for post‑secondary education and transfer payments, and its dubious record, Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Education to tell us what specifically is her government's position with regard to the federal government's announcement?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, as I said in earlier answers, we are interested in looking at working co‑operatively and also consultatively, but we would like to work through the Council of Ministers of Education because we are interested in the national perspective.

Mr. Plohman:  Mr. Speaker, I do not know how this minister, first of all, can put any confidence in a national government that has made such a mess out of education up to this point in time.

       I want to just follow up on the earlier question and ask this minister if she will now table a copy of the response‑‑[interjection] It was asked of her, and she did not answer the question.  The Premier (Mr. Filmon) is chirping from his seat.

       We simply want a copy of the response that was given to the federal government by the Council of Ministers.  Will that minister now table that response?

Mrs. Vodrey:  Mr. Speaker, the member speaks about a national perspective.  The national perspective is one which is developed in consultation with the Council of Ministers of Education, representing provincial interests across this province in co‑operation and consultation with the federal government and each of our own provinces.  He, I believe, is alluding to a federal perspective, and that is different.

Mr. Plohman:  We have all been at these ministerial conferences, and we all give provincial positions.  What is wrong with this minister?

       I want to ask the minister what assurances she can give the education community in Manitoba that this federal government will have any more dedication and commitment to education than this minister has who has cut school boards in an unprecedented way this year.

Mrs. Vodrey:  Mr. Speaker, the member speaks about having been at conferences representing the provincial government where there has been a federal minister.  There is not a federal Minister of Education.  Ministers across Canada meet together with a Council of Ministers of Education in an attempt to develop our national perspective, taking into account the provincial interests in each area.

* (1410)

 

Canadian Wheat Board

Barley Marketing

 

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Agriculture.

       Once again, farmers in western Canada will be dealt a severe blow by the federal government.  Charlie Mayer has commissioned a study to deal with barley sales and is considering ending the Wheat Board's monopoly of barley.  Mr. Speaker, the federal minister does not have the mandate to do this.  He has not consulted with farmers, and we know that this is going to have a negative impact on farmers.

       I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture if he has seen the report and whether or not he supports the dual system of barley sales or whether he supports the Wheat Board's control of barley sales.

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture):  Mr. Speaker, no, I have not seen the report because it has not been published.  I can tell the member that 19 people have been appointed to the commission of study, seven of whom happen to live in the province of Manitoba.  I will respect their judgment when they bring the report down.

Ms. Wowchuk:  Mr. Speaker, will the minister admit that changing to a dual system will reduce the board's power and it will reduce the overall value of Canadian barley, and Manitoba farmers, Canadian farmers, will suffer because of this change?

Mr. Findlay:  Mr. Speaker, it is rather interesting.  That member has already formed an opinion, and she has not seen the results of a group of experts from across western Canada, over a third of whom come from Manitoba.  I am surprised she does not respect their judgment.

       I will tell the member what I will be looking for.  I will be looking for maximizing the opportunity of Manitoba barley producers to access a very good market in North America and to maximize the ability of farmers to have the highest possible farm gate return for barley they produce.

Ms. Wowchuk:  Mr. Speaker, I am surprised that the minister has not seen the report.  It is the worst‑kept secret that there is.

       Will the minister admit that if we go to the dual sales, it is going to be remote farmers in northern Manitoba who are going to suffer more and those along the border who are going to get the best advantage out of this, or is he only interested in getting Charlie Mayer re‑elected?

       Mr. Findlay:  Mr. Speaker, I am really disappointed.  That member is fearmongering, interested only in a few people.  She is not interested in the broad spectrum of opportunity for people producing barley in this province.  One of the greatest markets we had for feed grains in, particularly, Russia is a market that cannot pay anymore.  We have to find other markets.

       The mission of the commission was to see if we had maximized our opportunities selling in the North American market, and I will await the results of that group of experts who have analyzed the whole question for an average of all farmers in western Canada.  I will be interested from the standpoint of Manitoba farmers' ability to access markets and of the highest farm gate return for barley that can be achieved from the marketplace.

 

Residential Tenancies

Branch Staffing

 

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows):  Mr. Speaker, due to funding cuts by the provincial and federal governments in housing, the number of units of new construction of public housing has declined from a thousand units in 1990 to 200 units in 1993, and now the Department of Housing is considering reductions in staff because they claim that the workload is not there.

       Meanwhile, numerous families in the inner city have a very high migrancy rate which has a detrimental effect on children in inner‑city schools.

       I would like to ask the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, would she talk to her colleague the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ernst) and instead of laying off staff, would they give serious consideration to transferring staff to the Residential Tenancies Branch so that tenants who request work orders can see that those work orders are speedily processed and the work orders enforced so that families are not forced to move in order to find better accommodation in the private rental market?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs):  Mr. Speaker, the new Residential Tenancies Act, as you know, was brought into place last year.  Always as that act is being put into the marketplace and we are living with it, we are refining and enhancing it at all times.  We have had tremendous co‑operation from landlords and tenants and excellent feedback.

       As far as the Minister of Housing is concerned, I think he is handling his department in a very good way.  We are always in communication with each other on areas of interest to Manitobans and will continue to be.

 

Public Housing

Inspection Program

 

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows):  Would the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs give

consideration to allocating staff to a housing inspection program, whether it is in the Department of Housing or in the Residential Tenancies Branch, since, with the demise of the Core Area Initiative and the termination of the Core Area Residential Upgrading and Maintenance Program, there is no housing inspection program.

       The current system is entirely complaint driven.  Would this minister consider allocating staff to a housing inspection program?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs):  Mr. Speaker, the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and the Residential Tenancies Branch work in close co‑operation with the Department of Housing, indeed with many other departments in the government as well.  Ministers are in close co‑operation and communication with each other on the needs of their various departments and will continue to be in that kind of co‑operation.

 

Residential Tenancies Act

Enforcement

 

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows):  Would the minister who is responsible for The Residential Tenancies Act see that this act is enforced since tenants frequently complain to us from our constituencies including in Burrows that it takes an inordinate amount of time to have repair order requests processed and the repair orders enforced?

       Will the minister talk to her colleague, the Mi