VOL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Monday, April 19, 1993

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

PRAYERS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

PRESENTING PETITIONS

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Christine Hather, Pauline Genaille, Martha Chartrand and others requesting the Family Services minister (Mr. Gilleshammer) consider restoring funds for the friendship centres of Manitoba.

Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Brad Hastings, Sharon James, Cheryl A. James and others requesting the Family Services minister (Mr. Gilleshammer) consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Santos). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed]

Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the United Nations has declared 1993 the International Year of the World's Indigenous People with the theme, "Indigenous People: a new partnership"; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has totally discontinued funding to all friendship centres; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and

WHEREAS the elimination of all funding to friendship centres will result in the loss of many jobs as well as the services and programs provided, such as: assistance to the elderly, the homeless, youth programming, the socially disadvantaged, families in crisis, education, recreation and cultural programming, housing relocation, fine options, counselling, court assistance, advocacy;

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Family Services minister to consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba.

Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Leonard Evans). It complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed]

Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the United Nations has declared 1993 the International Year of the World's Indigenous People with the theme, "Indigenous People: a new partnership"; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has totally discontinued funding to all friendship centres; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and

* * *

Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Ashton). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed]

Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the provincial government has without notice or legal approval allowed wide‑open Sunday shopping; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has not consulted Manitobans before implementing wide‑open Sunday shopping; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has not held public hearings on wide‑open Sunday shopping;

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Labour to consider holding public hearings on wide‑open Sunday shopping throughout Manitoba before March 31, 1993;

BE IT FURTHER resolved that the Legislative Assembly be pleased to request the Attorney General to uphold the current law concerning Sunday shopping until public hearings are held and the Legislature approves changes to the law.

* * *

Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Dewar). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed]

Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the United Nations has declared 1993 the International Year of the World's Indigenous People with the theme, "Indigenous People: a new partnership"; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has totally discontinued funding to all friendship centres; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and

Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Martindale). It complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed]

Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the United Nations has declared 1993 the International Year of the World's Indigenous People with the theme, "Indigenous People: a new partnership"; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has totally discontinued funding to all friendship centres; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and

Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Hickes). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed]

Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the United Nations has declared 1993 the International Year of the World's Indigenous People with the theme, "Indigenous People: a new partnership"; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has totally discontinued funding to all friendship centres; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Family Services Minister to consider restoring funding for the Friendship Centres in Manitoba.

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Introduction of Guests

Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from the Crestview School, twenty‑six Grade 5 students, under the direction of Ms. Lorraine Prokopchuk. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mrs. McIntosh).

Also this afternoon, from the Garden City Collegiate we have fifty Grade 9 students under the direction of Ms. Roberta Topping. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak).

On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

Tourism Marketing Strategy

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon).

Tourism is close to a billion‑dollar industry in this province, employing upwards to 25,000 to 26,000 people in our province.

A couple of years ago we asked for reasons why Manitoba's decline in tourism from U.S. visitors was down 14 percent, much larger than any other province in Canada. In fact, we had fewer tourists two years ago than we have had right back to 33 years ago, back to the 1950s.

Last year, after the government stated that they would have a thorough and aggressive campaign on tourism, kind of a recorded announcement to deal with U.S. tourists, again we see a decline of 6.4 percent in 1992, whereas the Canadian average was only a decline of 1.1 percent. In fact, we were in last place in 1990‑91; we are in eighth place in 1992.

I would like to ask the Premier why this aggressive campaign and aggressive strategy is not working in this very important and vital industry in Manitoba.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, the member is partly correct in terms of the decline in visitors from the United States. I would suggest he go back and review the statistics during his time in government, when he will find that the highest rate of decline in U.S. visitors occurred during that very particular time in Manitoba.

Having said that, we do recognize that about 10 to 12 percent of our tourism industry does come from the United States. We continue to focus on that with a part of our tourism campaign.

I know the Leader of the Opposition could not be there today for our tourism campaign announcement, but I believe representatives on his behalf were there, and if he were to listen to leaders from the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce, the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, Tourism Industry Association of Manitoba, Tourism Industry Association of Winnipeg, Tourism Winnipeg, and so on, I am sure he will find that they are very pleased with the 1993 campaign.

We continue to target the U.S. market as part of our overall campaign, but I do want to remind him that 88 percent of our tourism visitors do come from Canada and from Manitoba. If you look at the statistics in terms of occupancy rates in 1992, they were up in Manitoba in terms of fairs and festivals throughout Manitoba. Many of them had record attendance.

Overall tourism still fared reasonably well in 1992, but we do continue to promote in the United States.

Federal Brochure

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): The minister's own tourism book very clearly states that tourism from Manitoba, whereas it is very important, 75 percent of people visiting in Manitoba either stay at a private cottage or stay at a relative's place.

The percentage of money coming from U.S. tourists and tourists from out of the country is much more important and significant in terms of the activity it generates, the people it employs and the billion‑dollar potential, and those are out of the minister's own statistics.

Mr. Speaker, my question is again to the Premier (Mr. Filmon). Today, we are informed that the federal government has put out a tourism promotion publication listing nine great cities to visit.

Are any great cities or communities in Manitoba listed in that federal tourism brochure from the federal government?

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Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, firstly, I want to, from my perspective, correct the Leader of the Opposition. He talked about visitors from outside being more important than visitors from inside. I would suggest they are all important to Manitoba's tourism economy.

If he were to look at the statistics in terms of the importance of Manitoba‑‑and we continually encourage Manitobans to take their holidays at home and enjoy the many aspects of Manitoba, whether it is our outdoor activities, our beaches, our fishing, our camping, our hunting. There are many things for Manitobans to do, and they are just as important to our industry as anybody coming from the outside. I would hope that he would recognize that, Mr. Speaker.

He is referring to the federal publication that did not refer to Winnipeg. Obviously, we will be having discussions with the federal government on that exclusion. We are working with them on many co‑operative initiatives. We have a Canada‑Manitoba, $10‑million agreement over the next five years. We are doing many things co‑operatively with the federal government.

Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, we are very disappointed on this side to hear that the federal Conservative government, with the federal‑provincial agreement, has chosen to exclude Manitoba. I would hope the Premier (Mr. Filmon) will take that up at the highest level with the Conservative government. It is an insult to Manitobans that we have been left out of this publication.

Marketing Strategy

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): A final question to the Premier: Tourism out of the country declined in Manitoba again at 1.7 percent from '92 to '91, whereas the Canadian decline was .3 percent.

Why again is Manitoba running so far behind the rest of the country in terms of successful tourism campaigns to attract visitors from out of the country to our great province?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, again, I want to correct the Leader of the Opposition when he generalizes and suggests that we are running so far behind every other part of the country when he does his comparison. While we are not faring the best in Canada, we are certainly not faring the worst.

We continue to have a series of initiatives in the United States and other international markets. Part of the five‑year agreement we have with the federal government has an international marketing component that we are just starting to utilize and will be utilizing extensively in 1993. We are also bringing in a Visitor Values program, Mr. Speaker, with the United States in terms of promoting the advantages now of coming to Canada in terms of the exchange rate. We are also promoting something that we brought in last year which has the ability for United States visitors at our border to get the rebate directly of both the GST and the PST, many initiatives that will make it more attractive for foreign visitors to come to Manitoba.

We are optimistic about the 1993 campaign and anticipate it will meet the needs of attracting more visitors from the United States and other parts of the world.

Misericordia General Hospital

Status Report

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, all decisions with respect to bed closures are made by the Minister of Health. I am sure that the Minister of Health will welcome the opportunity today of quashing rumours and speculation and reassuring the staff and patients of Misericordia Hospital.

Will he confirm that Misericordia Hospital is not to be closed nor to be significantly downsized now or in the next 18 months?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend is repeating some of the rumours that have been circulating recently and I suppose in November, December, circa 1978, and circa 1975‑‑a long history of rumours.

I can indicate to my honourable friend that the rumours about an imminent closure of Misericordia Hospital are incorrect. They were incorrect when I was asked by members of the media in December as to whether Misericordia was closing. Then the rumour was a little more draconian, Sir. The rumour at that date was a question posed to me on a Friday to the extent that Misericordia would be closed the following Monday.

At least the rumours are getting a little more gentle, but they are still not accurate.

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the minister did not answer the question fully, and that is one of the things that breeds rumours.

I will ask the minister simply again. The minister said that the imminent closing will not occur.

Will he confirm that the hospital will not be closed nor significantly downsized either imminently or in the next 18 months to two years?

A simple question‑‑he can put the rumours to bed by answering it right now.

Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I have given my honourable friend that answer as I have given that answer on previous days.

My honourable friend's party supports the reform of the mental health system. Part of that reform of the mental health system was the decision that was accepted from the Urban Hospital Council and from the Winnipeg Regional Mental Health Council to remove the acute care beds providing inpatient mental health services at Misericordia Hospital. That decision was accepted some 15 months ago and was reconfirmed, Sir, last month, in which we announced steps to bring in community‑based services in mental health.

Now, that clearly is a downsizing at the Misericordia Hospital as it is, coincidentally, at Grace and St. Boniface.

My honourable friend's seeking of assurance of no downsizing at Misericordia would go against what his own party has agreed to in mental health reform.

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Misericordia General Hospital

Status Report

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, one of the reasons why we have consistently called for a health monitor on the reform initiative is so that these rumours that are in the purview of the public do not continue to percolate on and on and on. As the minister has indicated, this one has been in the realm now for some many, many months.

The minister has clearly said, there is no imminent plan to close down Misericordia Hospital.

Can the minister tell the House today if there are additional changes in function for Misericordia Hospital now being planned above and beyond the plans already announced and executed in the field of mental health reform?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, let me first deal with rumours.

Back in, I think it was November or December, when notice was given as per the MGEU contract in terms of a number of layoffs which would be imminent, the president of that union indicated that all public health nurses employed in the Ministry of Health would be laid off. That was an unfounded statement by the leadership of that union, and it caused untold concern amongst public health nurses and the people they serve throughout the length and breadth of Manitoba.

I cannot stop people from making those erroneous statements to do nothing but advance their personal cause at leadership positions and to do so by really putting a significant amount of fear in the very people they represent, namely, in this case, the public health nurses.

I want to deal specifically with program in terms of the shifts, the changes that we anticipate may well be recommended to government across our urban hospitals. There are a number of program studies, for instance, obstetrics, orthopedics, urology and a number of other programs in which expert committees are now investigating how those programs can be delivered more effectively for the people of Manitoba. That may mean gives and takes and shifts in where and the amount of programs which are delivered from various hospitals.

To date, I have no recommendations other than in psychiatric bed provision.

Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, will the minister tell the House today if Misericordia Hospital has been designated as a hospital which will go from an acute care facility to an alternate community‑based facility?

Is that the direction in which this hospital is moving?

Mr. Orchard: I think that is one of the rumours which is not accurate, Mr. Speaker.

HIV Testing

Blood Transfusion Recipients

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Health tell the House today if he is debating and discussing with his officials to institute the same kind of HIV testing for those who had blood transfusions during the period of 1980‑1985, which has now been put in place in the province of Nova Scotia?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): I am not sure what is happening in Nova Scotia in terms of blood transfusion, citizens, other than the specific reference to those hemophiliacs.

Mr. Speaker, I thought my honourable friend's question might be centred around a decision by the Children's Hospital in Toronto to inform their pediatric patients.

Upon seeking clarity around that, it has been the advice given consistently by our institutions that individuals who received blood transfusions in the mid‑'80s, as a generous precaution, should avail themselves of the HIV testing. That advice has been before those patients for approximately five or six years now.

Manitoba Intercultural Council

Legislation Repeal

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, on the weekend the Manitoba Intercultural Council, in its sixth biennial conference, overwhelmingly called on the government to dismantle the Multiculturalism Secretariat, the Community Access Office and the Multicultural Grants Advisory committee and to maintain the legislative mandate role and funding of the Manitoba Intercultural Council.

Will the minister tell the House today, as she did not stay on Saturday morning to discuss issues and questions with the delegates there, if she will now re‑evaluate her decision to bring in legislation revoking the MIC Act and follow the mandate of the biennial conference?

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Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister responsible for Multiculturalism): Mr. Speaker, just at the outset, I was at the opening of the biennial assembly on Saturday morning, by invitation, to bring greetings and open the assembly.

I would just like to table in the House, if I might, my opening remarks, because a few of the NDP caucus were not there to hear them personally. So I would like them to have copies, and other members of the House, because it does indeed indicate our commitment to multiculturalism.

Mr. Speaker, we commissioned the Don Blair report, which was extensive consultation throughout the province of Manitoba in the multicultural community. As a result of receiving that report, we sent 800 copies out the width and the breadth of this province.

I had very few comments and responses back, but those who did respond did indicate that they were supportive of the Blair report, and we intend to follow the recommendations.

Anti-Racism Proposals

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, how can this government state its commitment to combatting racism which, as we have seen day after day, is increasing in this province in strength and in viciousness, when they are in the process of destroying the one organization that over the last 10 years has been able to provide a comprehensive plan for combatting racism and has been the one organization that has been able to co‑ordinate the activities of 400 multicultural communities? How can they say they‑‑

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question.

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister responsible for Multiculturalism): Mr. Speaker, we will not take a back seat to anyone in initiatives regarding combatting racism in this province. We have many initiatives that are ongoing, and we will continue to promote racial harmony as the government in Manitoba.

Legislation Delay

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, if the minister is not prepared to immediately repeal her comments on the MIC Act, will she agree, as the MIC council asked her to do, to delay introducing that legislation until the MIC executive and council have had a chance to meet with the minister and discuss ways that they can co‑ordinate the activities?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister responsible for Multiculturalism): I would say, of the very most important biennial assembly that has ever taken place in the history of the Manitoba Intercultural Council, I was somewhat disappointed that of the 400 organizations that are represented, about 70 delegates were there. That is about 18 percent of the organizations that were represented there. I do know that I have indicated quite clearly that I look forward to a very positive working relationship with the Manitoba Intercultural Council as they establish their new role and mandate, completely controlled by the community without government interference.

Canadian Wheat Board

Barley Marketing

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Agriculture.

The Carter report on barley sales to the U.S. was tabled today in Edmonton. The report is full of inaccuracies and information that cannot be substantiated. In fact, the dollar value is completely inaccurate. Mr. Carter has proven that he is not credible.

In light of the fact that five major farm groups in Manitoba, Manitoba Pool, Farmers' Union, Canadian Federation of Agriculture, KAP, the Canadian Wheat Board and maltsters are opposed to this report and say that it will have devastating effects in Manitoba, will the Minister of Agriculture tell us today whether he stands with the farmers and opposes this report, or is he supporting Charlie Mayer on this one?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, the member raises a question that is of pretty keen interest in the farm community right now.

I would like to tell the member that over the last four to five years since 1988, we have increased our barley sales to the United States by some 50 percent, a rather phenomenal increase, but I understand the report also indicates that some markets have not been served either in terms of volume or in terms of price.

I can assure the member that my department is going to do a thorough analysis of the study to determine if the facts there are right, if the allegations made against it are right. We are going to do a thorough analysis.

I want to be sure that we penetrate the market to the best possible extent and get the highest return to the farm gate for all farmers in Manitoba.

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Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, since it is the opinion of major farm groups that these changes will be devastating and will dramatically change agriculture patterns in Canada, will the minister commit today to holding public meetings so farmers could get information, and will he immediately implement a plebiscite on this very important issue?

Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, over the course of the last number of years, farmers have always had choices how to market their barley‑‑nonboard market or the Wheat Board. That choice still exists. No vote was held on whether that choice should be in place.

I have told the member, we will adequately review the document. Maybe, just maybe, the Wheat Board has not been using enough of the agents, the private sector agents, in selling the market, in penetrating the market. We are going to do that analysis.

I will not make a knee‑jerk reaction like that member there. Without even having looked at the report, she has already made a conclusion.

Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, I want to assure the member that we have looked at the report.

Will the minister agree that the federal government, which is at the end of its term and very low in the polls, does not have the mandate to make such dramatic changes to the Wheat Board, and will‑‑

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. We are having great difficulty in hearing the question of the honourable member for Swan River.

Ms. Wowchuk: I want to ask the minister if he will make representation to the federal government on behalf of farmers opposing any changes to Wheat Board sales before the next election.

Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, I have always been adamant‑‑the facts only, please. That member, in her preamble, forgot to notice the facts in the polls right now. Her party has gone thunk, right to the bottom, and the government has gone right to the top under the leadership of a woman, or the potential leadership of a woman. She refuses to accept those facts.

Mr. Speaker, I can assure the member, we will assess the facts. She may not like to address the facts, but we will.

Point of Order

Ms. Wowchuk: I would like to ask the minister if he would clarify the facts where he was talking about the leadership‑‑

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. That is definitely not a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. [interjection] What?

An Honourable Member: She wants me to clarify that?

Mr. Speaker: There was no point of order.

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Sexual Assaults on Youths

Conviction Rate

Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice.

Mr. Speaker, again today we have all been reminded by a report prepared by Dr. Catherine Stark that the community response to sexual violence towards children is woefully inadequate.

Assailants are charged in only half of the cases of reported sexual assault of teenagers. Less than 20 percent of reported assailants are convicted, despite the fact that 60 percent of victims are raped by someone they know. Twenty percent of rapes are gang rapes or had others watching. Finally and perhaps most disturbing and, underlying all of this, is the estimate by experts that only one in 10 cases of sexual violence towards children is even reported at all.

Mr. Speaker, my question for the Minister of Justice is: What is this minister prepared to do, as the senior law enforcement officer for this province, to get tough with the perpetrators of sexual violence towards children in our communities and give some comfort and support to victims of those crimes?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, as soon as my department learned of the existence of this report, senior officials in the department got in touch with the author of the report to discuss the findings.

Certainly, as we see them reported in the newspaper, some of the numbers that we see there are disturbing indeed. However, there are some things happening that the honourable member may wish to be reminded about.

Some of the things that are written in the article are cause for concern in themselves when we hear that many victims, it says here, also decide not to testify when they find out about the dismal conviction rate. Well, that looks to me like the beginning of a vicious circle. If there is a belief that there is not going to be a conviction, then there are going to be a lot of people not wanting to testify. Therefore, they are going to have to have stays of proceedings in numbers which we all agree are unacceptable and should not be happening.

There are some positive things happening, however. When the Supreme Court struck down the rape shield, the federal government, supported by provincial governments across this land, supported speedy action to replace the rape shield in such a way that the Supreme Court we hope will find acceptable.

We have our Domestic Violence Court here in Manitoba. We have the Women's Advocacy Program in Manitoba and other victims' programs which are working to assist victims and to let them know that you ought not to be frightened of the system, that we are trying to make the system more sensitive to the needs of victims.

Pedlar Report

Recommendations

Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, one of the most interesting comments in the report today was from a Crown attorney. The Crown attorney was quoted as saying that a major problem in securing convictions was that victims of teenage sexual abuse and assault could not get adequate support in coming forward and testifying in court.

My question for the minister, flowing from those comments, and that is a comment from someone in his department: Has the minister yet implemented, as he said he would, the Pedlar report recommendations that medical staff receive training and protocols to assist in securing convictions or that school curriculums include discussions about relationship violence?

After 18 months of the Pedlar report, has the minister implemented the things he said he would?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Many of the recommendations of the Pedlar review have indeed been implemented, certainly in the area of domestic violence and curriculum in the schools. There are modules respecting violence in families that are made available to teaching staff across the province and young people are learning about the dynamics of domestic violence and how we can avoid it.

The comment that was made in one case I suggest is not so helpful. One comment was made that if her goal is to see the guy go to jail, we tell them that is not likely. I frankly, Mr. Speaker, do not think that is helpful to a victim seeking assistance, to be told that it is not likely that your attacker is going to go to jail when everything we are doing in the justice system is pointing in the other direction.

If you look at our Family Violence Court, for example, the number of accused being sentenced to probation or jail has increased since the institution of the Family Violence Court.

I with all due respect would take issue with giving that kind of advice to a victim of sexual violence, you know, that, do not come forward because it is not going to do you any good anyway.

If this is the attitude of the professionals in the field, then I think that we still have some work to do, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Edwards: I am not wanting to provoke debate, Mr. Speaker, but it was illustrated six weeks ago, the justice system sends people‑‑

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for St. James was quite correct. He does not want to provoke debate. Kindly put your question now, please.

Women's Advocacy Program Resources

Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, finally, for the minister, the minister said he was going to implement every recommendation of the Pedlar report. You will remember he said that.

My question for the minister: Has the Women's Advocacy Program, which he has just spoken of recently in his answer, been moved to the Department of Justice now? Will its resources be expanded as set out in the Pedlar report with the new monies from the federal fine surcharge, which are not revenues raised in the normal taxation way, but are raised through the court system?

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for St. James has put his question.

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, when the honourable member gets up, I put my earplug in, because I do not want to miss anything he says, but when you stand up, his mike goes off, so I did not hear any of the gibberish that came out at the beginning of the question, but I did hear‑‑

Mr. Speaker: I heard the question. Order, please.

Point of Order

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, it seems to me entirely inappropriate that when we are dealing with children who have been raped, sometimes gang raped, that we allow‑‑

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts.

* * *

Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Justice, with his answer.

Mr. McCrae: I think the honourable member for River Heights' efforts to advance the debate are not very helpful, Mr. Speaker, frankly, when you consider the importance of these kinds of issues.

The honourable member asked if the Women's Advocacy Program has been moved to Justice. The answer is yes.

The other question was: Have resources for these kinds of programs‑‑are resources made available?

This program has been very carefully monitored. Each time there has been a need demonstrated through our independent advisory panel, funds have been made available, staff has been increased.

The honourable member, really, I am glad he raises the question, because it is important, but the answer on both counts is yes, indeed, there is.

On the part of this government, this is a No. 1 priority.

Budget

Property Tax Credit

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness).

Over $53 million of the expenditures cut in this last budget were related to reductions of the property tax credit of up to $75 and a reduction in the Pensioners' School Tax Assistance Program. This was a very regressive fiscal move and is definitely equivalent to an unfair tax increase, disproportionately hurting people on modest and low incomes and especially senior citizens.

My question is: Given this minister's stated intention to cut expenditures further next year, as he has shown in his budget, can Manitobans expect additional cuts to property tax credits next year or the year after?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, that question is bizarre. We have not even voted on this year's budget.

We will begin the budgetary process for 1994‑95 usually in the month of September. At that time we will have a clearer indication as to how the revenues are flowing in within the fiscal year '93‑94, which will then give us the base of greater confidence as to forecasting revenues for '94‑95.

It is much too soon to make any type of comment with respect to the budget for '94‑95.