LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Friday, April 23, 1993

 

The House met at 10 a.m.

 

PRAYERS

 

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

 

PRESENTING PETITIONS

 

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Marlene Antonio, Linda Smith, Frances Spooner and others requesting the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider restoring funding of the student social allowance program.

* * *

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Susan Comeau, Doran Reid, Diane Reid and others requesting the Family Services minister (Mr. Gilleshammer) consider restoring funding for friendship centres in Manitoba.

* * *

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to stand and present the petition for Fiona Muldrew, Carol Popiel, Lorraine Moore and others requesting the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) consider restoring the funding for the student social allowance program.

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Darla Tenold, Susan Banks, Allison Dewar and others requesting the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) consider restoring funding of the student social allowance program.

 

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

 

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Hickes).  It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?  Does he want it read? [agreed]

Mr. Clerk (William Remnant):  The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

      WHEREAS the United Nations has declared 1993 the International Year of the World's Indigenous People with the theme, "Indigenous People:  a new partnership"; and

      WHEREAS the provincial government has totally discontinued funding to all friendship centres; and

      WHEREAS the provincial government has stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and

      WHEREAS the elimination of all funding to friendship centres will result in the loss of many jobs as well as the services and programs provided, such as:  assistance to the elderly, the homeless, youth programming, the socially disadvantaged, families in crisis, education, recreation and cultural programming, housing relocation, fine options, counselling, court assistance, advocacy;

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Family Services minister to consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba.

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Ms. Wowchuk).  It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed]

Mr. Clerk:  The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

      WHEREAS the United Nations has declared 1993 the International Year of the World's Indigenous People with the theme, "Indigenous People:  a new partnership"; and

      WHEREAS the provincial government has totally discontinued funding to all friendship centres; and

      WHEREAS the provincial government has stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and

      WHEREAS the elimination of all funding to friendship centres will result in the loss of many jobs as well as the services and programs provided, such as:  assistance to the elderly, the homeless, youth programming, the socially disadvantaged, families in crisis, education, recreation and cultural programming, housing relocation, fine options, counselling, court assistance, advocacy;

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Family Services minister to consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba.

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Martindale).  It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed]

Mr. Clerk:  The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

      WHEREAS the United Nations has declared 1993 the International Year of the World's Indigenous People with the theme, "Indigenous People:  a new partnership"; and

      WHEREAS the provincial government has totally discontinued funding to all friendship centres; and

      WHEREAS the provincial government has stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and

      WHEREAS the elimination of all funding to friendship centres will result in the loss of many jobs as well as the services and programs provided, such as:  assistance to the elderly, the homeless, youth programming, the socially disadvantaged, families in crisis, education, recreation and cultural programming, housing relocation, fine options, counselling, court assistance, advocacy;

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Family Services minister to consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba.

* (1005)

 

Introduction of Guests

 

Mr. Speaker:  Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us today His Excellency Tajeddine Baddou, who is the Ambassador of Morocco to Canada.

      On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon.

      Also with us this afternoon, we have the Honourable Penny Priddy, Minister of Women's Equality from the government of British Columbia, in the gallery.

      I would like to welcome you here this afternoon.

      Now we have from the St. Adolphe School forty‑two Grades 7 and 8 students under the direction of Ms. Lois Quesnel.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson).

      Also this afternoon from the Applied Linguistics Centre, we have 36 students under the direction of Ms. Ruth Klippenstein and Ms. Greta Gibson.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for St. James (Mr. Edwards).

      On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon.

 

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

 

Core Area

Agreement Renewal

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.

      In 1990, the Premier in the election campaign committed himself and his government to renewing a third tripartite agreement, the Core Area Agreement for the city of Winnipeg. When we asked the Premier questions on this issue in 1991 after he had met with the Conservative Prime Minister, he indicated that again this matter was being negotiated between the two governments and that he was hoping to achieve some success. Unfortunately, we have not had a new Core Area Agreement.

      In December of this year, we asked the Premier again after the minibudget came out, and the Premier agreed with us that the minibudget from the federal Conservatives was full of holes for Manitoba in terms of commitments.

      The Premier again said he would raise it with the Prime Minister.  In fact, it was on his public agenda when he met with Prime Minister Mulroney in early December.

      My question to the Premier is:  In the budget next week, on Monday, can we expect to have the renewal of the Core Area Agreement for the people of Winnipeg and the province of Manitoba?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, of course, the member knows full well that if matters of public policy were to be raised prior to the budget, obviously that could create an issue for the budget, and so I would not know whether or not it is in the budget because I would not have knowledge of the contents of that budget.  In fact, anybody who would have knowledge of the contents of that budget could jeopardize its approval process, so I could not give him an answer to that.

      What I can say is that we have had some encouraging indications of an interest on the part of the new lead minister for Manitoba, Mr. Mayer, and in my discussions with Mr. Mayer and my meetings since last December, I have encouraged him along those lines.  He met as recently as, I believe it was last week or the week before with the mayor and the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst) to try and work out some arrangements toward the conclusion of an urban renewal agreement on a tripartite basis for the city of Winnipeg.

* (1010)

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, the Premier well knows that federal‑provincial agreements are announced all the time outside of the federal budget.  In fact, the last renewed Core Area Agreement‑‑[interjection] Well, the Premier commented about its lack of inclusion in the minibudget on December 3, 1992, and the Premier then said that he would raise it with the Prime Minister.

      I want to ask the Premier:  When can we expect a new Core Area Agreement for the city of Winnipeg?

      We have been waiting for two years since the Premier promised it.  It is an internationally renowned program that has trained thousands of Manitobans in the inner city, has renewed many parts of our physical structure in the inner city.  It has received international awards.

      When can we expect the Premier to fulfill the promise that he made to the people of Manitoba in the 1990 election campaign?

Mr. Filmon:  Mr. Speaker, the member asked if it was going to be in the budget of next Monday.  I answered that question specifically, and then he responds that it could be announced even outside of the budget.

      That is precisely why we have the three ministers who will be responsible ultimately for the negotiation and the drafting of such agreement working.  We have the three levels of government headed by Mayor Susan Thompson, the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst) and Mr. Charlie Mayer, who is the lead minister for the province of Manitoba in the federal government.

      They have been working on it.  They met as recently as last week, I believe it was‑‑it might have been the week before‑‑and progress is being made.  So I say to him that we are more optimistic today than we were in December, Mr. Speaker.

 

Training Programs

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  The federal Conservative government has systematically cut back on their training commitments to the province of Manitoba, both inside the last Core Area Agreement and now outside of the Core Area Agreement with its reduction in access programs.

      The provincial government has also reduced its commitment to access programs in its own budget this year, Mr. Speaker, and I would like to ask the Premier whether the new Core Agreement will include increased training and development programs for people in the inner city, for people across Manitoba, training and development that is the key to their careers, to their futures, to their dignity.  Will we see a training program announced by the federal Conservative government and the provincial Conservative government, or are we going to continue to see the reduction of training opportunities for people who most need it in our province?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Given that all of the elements of the agreement are currently under negotiation amongst all three levels of government, I can only say that the Leader of the Opposition will have to wait until the agreement is negotiated and finalized to find the answer to that.

     

Children's Advocate

Minister's Clarification

 

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows):  Mr. Speaker, my questions are for the Premier.

      Yesterday, the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) is quoted as saying that the Children's Advocate speaks on behalf of individual children.  I would like the Minister of Family Services to reread the Children's Advocate bill, which says that the duties of the Children's Advocate are to advise the minister on matters relating to the welfare and interest of children and services relating to children, to review and investigate complaints that he or she receives relating to children and relating to services provided to children, plural.

      I would like to ask the Premier to clarify this statement by his minister, that the Children's Advocate investigates complaints regarding individuals in spite of the fact that the act refers to children in general.  Would the Premier clarify, please?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, that obviously would be a question of clarification that should be addressed to the person who made the statement, and he may want to do that in due course.

      But I will say that it is interesting that the members opposite argue that the Child Advocate would somehow not be independent and spent hours and hours and days and months debating a bill saying that the Child Advocate would not be independent, and now that we have the first public action of the Child Advocate demonstrating clearly the independence, that is not recognized or acknowledged by the member opposite.

 

Recommendations

 

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows):  Could the Premier explain to me then, please, why he is criticizing our position when the Children's Advocate printed a letter making a recommendation to the minister which the Legislative Assembly was totally unaware of until we obtained a copy of this letter, in spite of the fact that I asked the minister in Estimates if he had made any recommendations, and the minister refused to answer the question?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, we do have an opportunity to get advice from people from a wide variety of sources.  The Child Advocate obviously did not address the issue as to how it could be that Manitoba has the third highest, even after the decreases that are being spoken of, level of support for its foster children in this entire country; how that could be inadequate compared to Saskatchewan, in which the per diem rate is $3 a day less than the rate in Manitoba, even after the reduction that is spoken of; how that could be adequate to meet the needs of the children of Saskatchewan.

      Perhaps the Child Advocate would want to address some of those issues and would want to look at the policies of New Democrats in government and the lack of support, perhaps, that they provide for their children.

* (1015)

 

Proclamation of Bill

 

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows):  Mr. Speaker, can the Premier tell the House when his government plans to proclaim, by Order‑in‑Council, the Children's Advocate bill?

      The Children's Advocate needs the mandated authority to carry out his mandated duties, and he needs to have the act in place to back up his authority to carry out investigations.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice on behalf of the minister.

 

Taxicab Board

Government Confidence

 

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister responsible for the taxi industry.  What we have seen over the last number of years is a lot of confrontation between the board and the individuals that are working for and representing the taxi industry as a whole.  We find that in fact it is exemplified when we see a bill that is going to have such changes to the act that it is going to have an impact on each and every driver in that particular industry.

      My question to the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger):  Does he have confidence in the current board, in particular in Mr. Norquay, when there is an onus, there is a responsibility that the public's interest does have to be best served and you have to see co‑operation?  How can we see that there is co‑operation when we have a bill of this nature that has been introduced‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member has put his question.

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I had asked the member yesterday to have a little bit of patience.  Within the half hour I will be giving second reading to the bill, and I will be giving additional information to the members of the House in terms of what we are trying to accomplish with the bill.

      I want to assure members of this House, as well as the people in the taxicab industry, that this legislation that we are proposing, if there are areas that are going to be of concern in terms of how the industry is run, I am prepared to discuss that further.  However, the cost‑recovery aspect of it is something that I am not prepared to have any give on.

      At the present time we recover only 50 percent of the costs of running the taxicab industry.  We are going to full cost recovery on that.  Part of the legislation will allow that to happen, and that is one area where I am not going to compromise on.

 

Bill 24 Amendments

 

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster):  Mr. Speaker, the minister asked me to be patient.  What we are trying to point out is the fact that the minister did not consult with anyone with respect to this particular bill.

      Can the minister tell me:  Will the minister be looking at introducing amendments to Bill 24?

     

Point of Order

 

Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader):  Mr. Speaker, I would indicate to you that I will be calling the bill that the minister referred to in Orders of the Day.  Indeed, if there are rules that we are trying to follow, I would say that already asking the minister to indicate whether or not he is going to bring amendments down, when indeed the minister has not even put second reading on the record, I say is highly out of order and I would ask the member to withdraw the question.

Mr. Speaker:  On the point of order raised by the honourable government House leader, he has indeed informed the House now that they will be calling that said bill this afternoon after Question Period, so therefore the honourable member's question is out of order.  The honourable member may rephrase his question if he so wishes.

 

Legal Notice

Government Policy

 

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster):  Mr. Speaker, maybe I can ask the Minister of Highways if in fact this is policy now from the government that our courts require that actual notice be given to parties in legal proceedings?  The Taxicab Board‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member has put his question.  Order, please.  You have put your question.

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I hate to belabour this, but I find it ironic that we are trying to debate the bill before we have even given second reading on the thing.  I mean, we went at this yesterday and did the same thing, and that is basically‑‑he is taking issues out of the bill before I have given second reading.

      I have asked him, have a little patience.  You know, I have an open mind to some of the issues in here, if there are major concerns.  If he will listen and read my first answer, I think that should clarify it for him.

* (1020)

 

Legislation Consultation

Government Policy

 

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster):  Mr. Speaker, right to the point and very simple for the minister, is it the policy of this government to introduce legislation without consulting prior and then bring forward legislation and hope that nothing is going to happen?  Is that the policy of this government?

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I do not know which boards have more meetings and consultations than the Taxicab Board has had over the last three or four years in trying to resolve some difficult issues in there.  How the member can stand here and say there has been no consultation‑‑I have great difficulty with that.

 

Assiniboine River Diversion

Government Spending

 

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  Mr. Speaker, I would like to begin by congratulating the

Environment department for its work and recognition today.  It should be congratulated on ozone‑depleting substances.  I have congratulated before and recognized the work in this area, and I would just hope that eliminating the division that deals with this program is not going to disrupt the successful start in this area.

      I hope that the same close desire for change and foresight will be applied by this government in dealing with water.  We have just learned that this government is subsidizing a huge irrigation zone in southern Manitoba which will drain water from other priority‑use areas for water use.

      Why, for the Minister of Environment, are we spending $62 million on the Assiniboine Diversion if there is water available closer to this region that is being used for irrigation?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  Mr. Speaker, if the member knows where that $62 million is I would like to meet with her.  If she knows something I do not know I want to talk to her.

      Mr. Speaker, this is indeed serious.  The fact is that while there are obviously lots of discussions and proposals in front of the government, there are certainly no decisions that have been made.  The fact is that the proposals to become involved in the Pembina Valley diversion are being referred to the Clean Environment Commission.

      Discussions, I am sure, will rage long and loud at that juncture, and I would invite the member and others who are concerned to marshal their arguments to be presented in that forum.

Ms. Cerilli:  Mr. Speaker, the $62 million is subsidy, taxpayers' money from various levels of government that is going to the Assiniboine Diversion.

      Why are we spending this kind of money and why do we have the Agassiz Irrigation Project being used first for irrigation instead of drinking water as the priority use if we are spending money on the Assiniboine Diversion?  Why is this water not being used for drinking water?

Mr. Cummings:  Mr. Speaker, there are always a number of options to any proposal or program that is put forward.  I would assume that the member is very cognizant of the fact that the Winkler aquifer, for example, could be force fed or recharged, if you will, to try and enhance its capacity, but one of the concerns we have is that any recharge other than by the natural process that normally occurs is that recharge could contaminate that aquifer through spring runoff that could contain contaminants that would be virtually impossible to remove from an aquifer.

      These are the kinds of problems and debates that enter into where a community gets its potable water from, how its future growth will be either possible or restricted.

      I would invite the member again to make sure that those arguments are brought forward at the commission.

 

Agassiz Irrigation Project

Government Subsidies

 

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  It is good to see the minister acknowledging problems with contaminated runoff water, but I would ask the minister:  I think it is $2.8 million for the Agassiz Irrigation Project.  How much of this money is subsidization for Manitoba tax dollars going to subsidize yet another irrigation scheme that is going to benefit private irrigators?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  Mr. Speaker, again, there are programs and proposals that are put forward and requests that government become involved in the process, but any of this has to be recognized as proposals.  Definite commitment of dollars is far from being consummated in terms of diversion or in terms of accumulation of dollars in the future.

      I can tell you that we are not hiding anything in Clayton's sock, Mr. Speaker.  Frankly, these things have to be very carefully reviewed, and environmental concerns are primary.

* (1025)

 

Clean Environment Commission Hearings

Selkirk Involvement

 

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk):  My questions are for the Minister of Environment.

      Studies have indicated that Selkirk will be negatively affected by the Assiniboine Diversion project, and given the major problem Selkirk has in terms of water quality, my question to the minister is:  Why was Selkirk not included in the Clean Environment Commission hearings?  Why were we shut out from voicing our concerns on this issue?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  Mr. Speaker, there is no reason in the world why Selkirk cannot be involved in the presentations at the Clean Environment Commission.  Every community at one point or another can make an argument that they should be involved in the process.

      The Clean Environment Commission chose what they thought were the appropriate areas for discussion, and quite often there may be disagreement over that.  It is quite legitimate that if that community feels that an additional site should be chosen for a hearing, they put that request forward.  But the commission has reviewed this, and they have decided that the locations which they are using would be the appropriate ones.  If the member or the community has other advice, let us hear it.

Mr. Dewar:  Mr. Speaker, that is small consolation to the community of Selkirk.

 

Department of Environment

Winnipeg Raw Sewage Treatment

 

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk):  Is the Minister of Environment still committed to ensuring that the City of Winnipeg disinfect and treat raw sewage dumped into the Assiniboine and Red Rivers?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  Mr. Speaker, my hearing device does not work, and I was unable to pick up the first part of that member's question.  If I could ask him‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  We will ask him to repeat it.  The honourable member for Selkirk, kindly repeat your question, please.

Mr. Dewar:  On behalf of the citizens of Selkirk, Mr. Speaker, I am just asking the Minister of Environment if his department is still committed to ensuring that the City of Winnipeg disinfect and treat raw sewage that is dumped into the Red and Assiniboine Rivers.

Mr. Cummings:  Yes, Mr. Speaker, that is an important question and one which we have been dealing with on an ongoing basis for the last three years, including the water quality study that was done and released by the Department of Environment.

      I want to tell you, that is the direction in which the city is moving, where they have been asked for proposals on how they will develop the ability to provide that treatment.

      Again, we recognize the problem and the severity of the problem.  The balance will have to be struck, along with the capability of the taxpayers of the city to put those dollars into infrastructure.  We believe that long‑range water quality objectives that we have set and the requirements that this puts on the City of Winnipeg will lead to answer the very question the member has put.

 

Red/Assiniboine Rivers Water Quality

Government Improvement Plans

 

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk):  Mr. Speaker, that is the same answer he has been giving me for the last couple of years in this House, but what plans does this minister have to improve the water quality of the Red and the Assiniboine Rivers?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  First of all, Mr. Speaker, I think the member is ignoring the fact that it requires a little bit of previous planning to commit several million dollars on behalf of either the City or the Province of Manitoba.

      Secondly, Mr. Speaker, the water quality of the Assiniboine and any potential impacts that has on the city of Winnipeg and the downstream city of Selkirk is very much going to be part of an Environmental Commission review.  The fact is that this review, while we are talking about 20 cfs of water, which is a reasonably small amount of water, what is happening is that it is enlarging into a much larger debate that members of the public would like to engage in.

      If that is the case, then we are quite prepared to hear those arguments.

* (1030)

 

Taxicab Industry

Government Consultation

 

Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The Maples):  My question is for the Minister of Highways.

      Mr. Speaker, this minister has introduced a bill which will expand the powers of the Taxi Board.  This expansion in power was done without consultation with all stakeholders.  It appears from this bill that the new Taxi Board will give drivers more uncertainty for their rights and their responsibilities.

      Can the Minister of Highways tell this House if he has done any consultation with the taxi owners and drivers board?

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I personally have not had the consultation with the industry.  I have a Taxicab Board that basically adjudicates the responsibilities of the taxi industry.  There has been ongoing discussion with them.

      As we move forward with this bill, obviously it is drawing a lot of attention, and there will be a lot of discussion.  I am prepared to entertain that kind of discussion.

Mr. Cheema:  Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Highways give assurance to us before he brings in any amendment if he would meet with the taxi industry now and try to have a reasonable solution to this major problem?

Mr. Driedger:  Mr. Speaker, the purpose of the Taxicab Board is to basically administrate the responsibilities of the taxicab industry.  I have had the confidence in that board and in the chairman over the last three, four years.

      The one assurance I will give the member is that as this bill comes forward, as we debate this bill, if there are areas of major concern, we will take and address them to the best of our ability.

 

Taxicab Board

Removal of Chairperson

 

Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The Maples):  Mr. Speaker, I do not have to tell the Minister of Highways what happened with the Tuxedo Taxi.  The issue is very serious.

      This chairperson has been a major source of irritation for a large section of my community, and this board chairperson has been causing them problems for the last five years, and he is not sending a good message.

      Can the Minister of Highways now remove this chairperson from this board and try to resolve this problem?

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, no, I have confidence in the chairman.  If I did not, I would have removed him already.  I believe that the chairman has been relatively sincere in terms of trying to address all aspects of the problems in the taxicab industry, and I am prepared to debate that further as we go through the bill.

 

Misericordia Hospital

Job Loss Government Action

 

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):  Mr. Speaker, we are advised that another 41 people have been laid off at Misericordia Hospital. Last week, 141 people were laid off at St. Boniface Hospital, and in the month or two before that over 300 were laid off between St. Boniface Hospital and the Health Sciences Centre as the process of the government health reform speeds along.

      Can the Premier advise the House what progress has been made to provide for the transition of these people and the services they offer to programs in the community?  What programs are being offered as a result of the loss of these jobs and these services in the community?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, because I know a great deal of work is being done by the Urban Hospital Council and the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) in all of these matters and because I know the member would want me to give a full and complete answer for that question, I will take that as notice on behalf of the Minister of Health.

 

Health Community Services

Layoffs/Program Cuts

 

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):  My supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Will the Premier review the minister's comments in the House yesterday when he said, all of those reports are coming in three, four, five and six months and then the community services will be in place?  Will he also ask the minister, if he takes as notice or he is prepared to answer today, why are they laying off all these people and shutting down programs, presumably, when these agencies have not even reported the results of what they are doing to the minister or to the Health Reform committee?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, you see, the member is putting presumptions which may be beneficial to his attempting to create an issue‑‑for instance, among other things, the reforms that are involved and the opportunities for more efficiency in the use of beds involved; for instance, that preoperative care will be provided on an outpatient basis.  So that changes the number of beds allocated for particular purposes as part of what is being done.

      So I do not want to get into the detail of it, because it is an issue, obviously, that the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) should be charged with the responsibility to talk about publicly and to debate with the member.  So, again, I will take his question, the substance of his question, as notice on behalf of the Minister of Health.

 

Education System

School Dropout Rate

 

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley):  Mr. Speaker, for the last two days, the Minister of Education has tried to evade any discussion of dropout rates in Manitoba.  Statistics Canada study of 1991 shows‑‑it is a study of 20‑year‑olds who had, quote, dropped out of school at some time during their school career‑‑and it showed Manitoba at the Canadian average of 23.5 percent.

      My question to the minister today, as it has been in the past, is:  Does the minister accept this number for Manitoba?  Is this the basis of the planning in the Department of Education?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, the member has obviously forgotten the answers that I have given her over the past few days.  She has referred to studies by Statistics Canada, and I have said to her that there are many studies in the area of dropout rates, some of which attribute a dropout rate of 30 to 33 percent.

      Mr. Speaker, in our department we have been looking at the graduation rates of students.  The graduation rates, the most recent numbers, indicate 73 percent.  I gave her yesterday, therefore, based on the graduation rates, a dropout rate, if you use that statistic, of 27 percent in Manitoba.

      However, Mr. Speaker, as I have said to the member, please let us discuss exactly the meaning of dropout, because we know that some young people do leave school for a certain period of time, then they reintegrate into the system and they do successfully complete a high school degree.

Ms. Friesen:  Mr. Speaker, yesterday, I gave the minister the name of the study.  Today, I gave her the definition of dropout when I read it out in quotations.  I do not know how I can make it any simpler for this minister.

      I want to ask the minister, could she explain why that Statistics Canada information, collected on a comparable basis in every province in Canada, shows that Manitoba has the highest dropout rate in western Canada and, in particular, why Alberta at 16 percent and Saskatchewan at 17 percent seem so much further ahead than Manitoba?

Mrs. Vodrey:  Mr. Speaker, again, I have said to the member, she has offered one definition of the issue of dropout.  We in Manitoba are attempting very carefully to look at our student retention, and we have, let me remind the member, established the first in Canada Student Support branch.

      This government established that branch last year, and this government puts $10 million into that branch.  That branch focuses on the issues of students at risk so that we are doing something very concretely to assist young people to remain in school and complete their high school education.

 

Social Allowance Cutbacks

Impact on School Dropout Rate

 

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley):  Mr. Speaker, could the minister then tell the House again, because I really enjoy her explanation of this one, what will be the impact on the dropout rate of forcing 1,200 students on social allowance out of the classroom and onto the streets?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, as the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) has explained a number of times, there were some very difficult decisions.

      We did offer assistance to students on social assistance.  It was the only program in Canada.  This government has had to make some very difficult decisions, but we continue to work with students, particularly those students who are at risk, to see that they are able to complete their high school education.

 

Carter Report

Government Position

 

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay).

      Barley growers may go to spring seeding not knowing how their export barley will be marketed.  They are concerned about the future of the Canadian Wheat Board.

      I want to ask the minister if he has finally taken a position on the Carter report.  Will he finally stand up with Manitoba farm organizations who feel the Canadian Wheat Board is serving them very well and who do not want to see its mandate changed?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture):  Mr. Speaker, the farmers of Manitoba grow a lot of barley.  We export it all over the world; 10 percent of it goes to the United States, 90 percent to the rest of the world.  The Wheat Board has done a very good job of marketing over the course of the years.

      Some questions are being raised about whether we are penetrating the American market to the maximum possible extent and getting the maximum return at the farm gate for our farmers, and I want to see our farmers get the maximum return at the farm gate.

      I would like to remind the member what is really happening in the barley industry.  Over the course of the last 10 years, we have seen the costs at the farm gate go up for such things as freight, elevation, cleaning, transportation to Thunder Bay, transportation on the Great Lakes.  They have gone up 100 percent‑‑100 percent, the costs have gone up.

      Meanwhile, the value the farmer is getting at the farm gate has gone from less than $3 down to about $1.70.  So you see our costs doubling at the farm gate and our revenues coming down.

      I think it is very fair to ask whoever is marketing our barley that they maximize the return for the farmer.  Otherwise, he is going to be driven out of business with this kind of arithmetic that is going on in the overall grain industry.

* (1040)

 

Plebiscite

 

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River):  A lot of farm commodity prices are going down.  Is the minister blaming all of that on the Wheat Board?

      I want to ask the minister if he is prepared to stand with Manitoba farmers who are asking for a plebiscite before any changes are made.  Will he consider holding a plebis