LEGISLATIVE
ASSEMBLY OF
Monday,
April 26, 1993
The House met at 1:30
p.m.
PRAYERS
ROUTINE
PROCEEDINGS
PRESENTING
PETITIONS
Mr. Gregory Dewar
(Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of H.
Lindblom, Darwin Massey, Barry Flett and others requesting the Family Services
minister (Mr. Gilleshammer) consider restoring funding for friendship centres
in
* * *
Ms. Marianne Cerilli
(Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of
William Collins, Howard Almdal, Leanne Urbanski and others requesting the
Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider restoring funding of
the student social allowance program.
* * *
Mr. Leonard Evans
(Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of
Keith Sparvier, Lydia Sparvier, Trent Sparvier and others requesting the Family
Services minister (Mr. Gilleshammer) consider restoring funding for the
friendship centres in
Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable
member (Mr. Martindale). It complies
with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the
petition read? [agreed]
Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the
WHEREAS
WHEREAS over 1,000 young adults are
currently attempting to get off welfare and upgrade their education through the
student social allowances program; and
WHEREAS
WHEREAS the provincial government has
already changed social assistance rules resulting in increased welfare costs
for the City of
WHEREAS the provincial government is now
proposing to eliminate the student social allowances program; and
WHEREAS eliminating the student social
allowances program will result in more than a thousand young people being
forced onto city welfare with no means of getting further full‑time
education, resulting in more long‑term costs for city taxpayers.
WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray
that the Legislative Assembly of
* * *
Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the
honourable member (Mr. Dewar). It complies
with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the
rules. Is it the will of the House to
have the petition read? [agreed]
Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of
the
WHEREAS the United Nations has declared
1993 the International Year of the World's Indigenous People with the theme,
"Indigenous People: a new
partnership"; and
WHEREAS the provincial government has
totally discontinued funding to all friendship centres; and
WHEREAS the provincial government has
stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and
WHEREAS the elimination of all funding to
friendship centres will result in the loss of many jobs as well as the services
and programs provided, such as: assistance
to the elderly, the homeless, youth programming, the socially disadvantaged,
families in crisis, education, recreation and cultural programming, housing
relocation, fine options, counselling, court assistance, advocacy;
WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray
that the Legislative Assembly of
* * *
Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the
honourable member (Ms. Cerilli). It
complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the
rules. Is it the will of the House to
have the petition read? [agreed]
Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of
the
WHEREAS
WHEREAS over 1,000 young adults are
currently attempting to get off welfare and upgrade their education through the
student social allowances program; and
WHEREAS
WHEREAS the provincial government has
already changed social assistance rules resulting in increased welfare costs
for the City of
WHEREAS the provincial government is now
proposing to eliminate the student social allowances program; and
WHEREAS eliminating the student social
allowances program will result in more than a thousand young people being
forced onto city welfare with no means of getting further full‑time education,
resulting in more long‑term costs for city taxpayers.
WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray
that the Legislative Assembly of
Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the
honourable member (Ms. Friesen). It
complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the
rules. Is it the will of the House to
have the petition read? [agreed]
Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of
the
WHEREAS
WHEREAS over 1,000 young adults are
currently attempting to get off welfare and upgrade their education through the
student social allowances program; and
WHEREAS
WHEREAS the provincial government has
already changed social assistance rules resulting in increased welfare costs
for the City of
WHEREAS the provincial government is now
proposing to eliminate the student social allowances program; and
WHEREAS eliminating the student social
allowances program will result in more than a thousand young people being
forced onto city welfare with no means of getting further full‑time
education, resulting in more long‑term costs for city taxpayers.
WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray
that the Legislative Assembly of
TABLING OF
REPORTS
Hon. Darren Praznik
(Minister responsible for The Civil Service Act): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table today the
1991‑92 Annual Report of the Civil Service Commission of the
Hon. Harry Enns
(Minister of Natural Resources): Mr.
Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report 1991‑92 of the
Department of Natural Resources, along with the Supplementary Information for
Legislative Review copy for the year '93‑94.
* (1335)
INTRODUCTION
OF BILLS
Bill 28‑The
Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson
(Minister responsible for Multiculturalism): Mr.
Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik), that Bill
28, The
His Honour the Lieutenant‑Governor,
having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the
House. I would like to table that
message also.
Motion agreed to.
Bill 27‑The
Environment Amendment Act (2)
Hon. Glen Cummings
(Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, I move,
seconded by the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey), that Bill 27, The
Environment Amendment Act (2) (Loi no 2 modifiant la Loi sur l'environnement),
be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time.
Motion agreed to.
Bill 212‑The
Dauphin Memorial Community Centre Board Repeal Act
Mr. John Plohman
(Dauphin): I move, seconded by the member for Flin Flon
(Mr. Storie), that Bill 212, The Dauphin Memorial Community Centre Board Repeal
Act (Loi abrogeant la Loi sur le Conseil du Centre commemoratif de Dauphin), be
introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time.
Motion agreed to.
Introduction
of Guests
Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention
of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from
the Sargent Park School eighty‑six Grade 9 students under the direction
of Mr. Robert Forrester. This school is
located in the constituency of the honourable member for
On behalf of all honourable members, I
would like to welcome you here this afternoon.
ORAL
QUESTION PERIOD
Farmers
Alfalfa Products
Government
Assistance
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First
Minister, chair of the Economic Development Board of Cabinet.
Mr. Speaker, in 1991, the Deputy Premier
(Mr. Downey) announced that video lottery terminal revenues would be used for
initiatives to complement rural economic development. Again, this last week, on April 22, 1993, the
Premier announced funds to be available from video lottery terminals, not all
the funds as was first announced in 1991, but funds would be announced for
rural economic development to provide for value‑added jobs and to allow
for business ventures to survive in rural communities.
Mr. Speaker, on the weekend I had the
honour of visiting the alfalfa plant in Dauphin. The people in that community, the people who
are working directly in the plant, the producers who produce the raw material
and the people in the coffee shops in the
I would like to ask the Premier: Of all the announcements they have made to
support rural economic development, is there not a way to help the alfalfa
plant in Dauphin and the producers of alfalfa in that community? It is one of the largest private employers in
that community. It produces economic
benefit of some $800,000 per year to that
* (1340)
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): Mr. Speaker, without addressing, because it
would take too long to correct all the inaccuracies within the preamble of the
question that the Leader of the Opposition put forward, I will say to him that
even during the time of the government of which he was a part, they steadfastly
took the position that operating expenses on behalf of businesses that were
failing were not something any government could get into, that the operating
side of the expenses of a business was the responsibility of that business with
the commercial lenders‑‑the banks, the credit unions, the various
financial institutions. They were the
ones who had to take the responsibility for that.
We have statements on record by members of
the Pawley administration that there was not enough money in government to do
that, that there are businesses which get into difficulty day after day after
day, that if government was to guarantee their operating line of credit or get
into their operating expenditures, there just simply would not be enough money
to go around.
He is the first person, Mr. Speaker, to
get up and talk about us supporting business and giving support to
business. I can give him dozens and
dozens of examples that come through week after week of people who say, there has
been a change in my trucking business because of deregulation; I just need
government to guarantee my line of credit for the next six months or a year or
whatever.
Mr. Speaker, it is not possible. No government in this country has taken on
that kind of responsibility.
Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I guess last Thursday, people in
the Parkland region and people across
That kind of nitpicking does not help the
people in Dauphin and
Is there not any way in this very
difficult time to find a way to keep this plant going so we can have these jobs
and these opportunities in
Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, this is not nitpicking to say
that the government cannot take on the responsibility of the operating expenses
of companies that are in difficulty.
If the member opposite wants to have
examples of it, examples that demonstrated to his own government when they were
in office, he only needs to look at King Choy Foods, at the aircraft
manufacturers, Saunders Aircraft, at all of those enterprises that the Schreyer
government took on by virtue of, firstly, getting into loan guarantees just
simply to guarantee their operating lines of credit that ultimately resulted in
them taking on the ownership and millions and millions of dollars of losses for
the public of
It is one thing to put in investments from
video lottery terminals for start‑up costs; it is one thing for setting
in place kinds of guarantee programs for the initial expenditures or for
particular job‑creating activities in the beginning. It is another thing to take on the
responsibility for guaranteeing their operating line of credit when they are in
financial difficulty. There are
literally dozens, if not hundreds of firms in
* (1345)
Mr. Doer: Successive governments have attempted to try
to work with private companies, co‑operative companies, with producers to
diversify our crops in western
Now this, admittedly, by scale, is much
smaller. Mr. Speaker, I do understand
that 27 jobs that have been there for 20 years are in jeopardy right now for
want of a loan guarantee from the provincial government. I understand that 20 producers have signed
$5,000 loan guarantees themselves to try to make this company operate. Is there not any way that the Premier and his
government can find a way to bridge this difficult situation based on the last
year's very, very moist crop situation and poor grade of product, so that we
can see these vital jobs maintained in
They paid taxes for 20 years. We need these people and these jobs in this
province.
Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, if this is indeed just a short‑term
problem, banks and financial institutions evaluate that. They do not want to go and lose their equity
in a company, their loans, their operating lines of credit. They do not want to lose that. If they saw an
opportunity for getting out of it, then they would be the first ones to say,
okay, your pro forma statement says that within six months or nine months or a
year, you will be out of this, and they exercise that kind of logical analysis.
They are not in the business of wanting to
lose whatever share of money they have in it.
The fact of the matter is‑‑I repeat for him‑‑that
this is the kind of thing that has been looked at by previous governments,
including New Democratic governments. If
you were to go and guarantee the operating line of credit for every business
that, because of some change in market or climate or anything else, got into
difficulty, you would have hundreds on your doorstep tomorrow.
You would have printing companies,
trucking companies, all sorts of companies that are in this time of difficulty,
Mr. Speaker, there saying it is the government's responsibility. I can guarantee him that I have had contacts
from many, many businesses in many different fields who ask for the same thing.
Personal
Care Homes
Rate
Structure
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis
(St. Johns): I would like to ask the Minister responsible
for Seniors some questions about a growing concern being expressed by many
people in this province, particularly the senior citizens of
This concern has been exacerbated by the
lack of information from the government itself.
In fact, the government has made matters worse by repealing the
regulation covering payments under The Health Services Insurance Act.
I would like to ask the minister: When will this government be releasing the
regulations which outline the changes to the rate structure for personal care
homes in this province?
Hon. Gerald Ducharme
(Minister responsible for Seniors): Mr.
Speaker, how we have been handling the concerns that have come forward, we have
asked the people to bring their examples until those regulations come forward,
and the minister responsible in Health has expressed in questions in the House
that he will be getting to the regulations shortly.
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Speaker, to help the minister do his job in
terms of speaking up for seniors, I will table a letter that went to all
personal care home residents, dated April 6, from the Assistant Deputy Minister
of Health indicating rate increases for personal care homes as high as 74
percent.
I want to ask the Minister responsible for
Seniors if he can tell us today how many people will be affected by this
government's changes to the rate structure.
How many people will have to pay the maximum, and how many will see
their fees increase and by much?
Mr. Ducharme: I do not have to be lectured by that member
across the way on seniors issues.
Mr. Speaker, the people involved are based
on the ability to pay, and as expressed to the member just in my first
response, the minister responsible for Health will be getting those regulations
through, and those questions will be answered by that minister.
* (1350)
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Speaker, we are talking about senior
citizens who have worked all their lives‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I remind the honourable member for
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I would like the minister to give some
information to us and to the seniors in this province. Specifically, what
definition of income will be used in determining the level at which personal
care home residents will be billed? Will
family income be taken into consideration?
How is the income level derived?
Mr. Ducharme: Mr. Speaker, as expressed in my two previous
responses, the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) will have those regulations
available to the public, and any inquiries that we are getting through our
Seniors secretariat, we are taking down examples that they have laid out to us,
and we carry them forward and get them back to those individual people.
So someone who has some questions in
regard to personal care and is at that standstill right now, we ask them to
phone our Seniors office, and we will get back to them on what the costs are on
May 1.
Endangered
Spaces
Mr. Paul Edwards (St.
James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister
of Natural Resources.
The minister was one of the first
signatories to the Endangered Spaces Campaign administered by the World Wildlife
Fund whereby 12 percent of the land from representative areas was to be set
aside and preserved in its natural state.
With much fanfare, this minister signed on in September of 1990 and very
quickly proved himself worthy of a D grade from the World Wildlife Fund with
the notation, unfulfilled expectations.
Mr. Speaker, Endangered Spaces has now
produced a map and sent it to the minister last week, which shows that he is in
line for another D or worse.
My question for the minister: Why has this minister, after two and a half
years of this program, of having signed on to it, only adequately protected 2
percent of
Hon. Harry Enns
(Minister of Natural Resources): Mr.
Speaker, the honourable member and I think all members ought to be aware that
the designation of land, particularly under this designation, to be set aside
for all time, is a very serious business.
We have in the course of these two years undertaken extensive public
hearings under the Natural Lands Strategy sponsored by the round table that
asked Manitobans throughout the province about their thoughts and views on this
and other subjects.
Mr. Speaker, I am also well aware that
when I signed that document committing this government to the principles of the
Endangered Spaces Program it was, in fact, a goal to be achieved by the year
2000.
I am satisfied that, very shortly, with
the introduction of new park lands legislation into this Legislature and other
initiatives, we will demonstrate to the satisfaction of certainly those who are
watching the province on this regard, that we are prepared to keep our
commitments.
Government
Initiatives
Mr. Paul Edwards (St.
James): Mr. Speaker, the minister says he needs more
time.
My question for the minister: Why, when he got his report card last year,
did he tie for second‑last place?
He tied with
My question for the minister, Mr. Speaker,
is: Between now and when the next report
card comes out in September, what is this minister going to do to warrant a
better mark than second‑last place in this country, a D?
Hon. Harry Enns
(Minister of Natural Resources): Mr.
Speaker, I am prepared to operate within the principles of the Endangered
Spaces Program and set aside and designate very substantial acres of land in
the
Provincial
Parks Protection
Mr. Paul Edwards (St.
James): Mr. Speaker, my final question for the
minister: Will the minister commit today
to giving his words in his press conferences some credibility, by putting some
protection into the meaning of a park or a wildlife management area, given that
currently of
Hon. Harry Enns
(Minister of Natural Resources): Mr.
Speaker, I would invite the honourable member to await the introduction of new
park lands legislation into this Legislature.
That would be the appropriate time to debate these issues.
Clean
Environment Commission Hearings
Ms. Marianne Cerilli
(Radisson): Mr. Speaker, the Clean Environment Commission
hearing dates have been set for June 14 to 30 on the
Can the Minister of Environment confirm
that these dates have been set and that there are no downstream sites for the
Assinboine Diversion project Clean Environment hearings?
Hon. Glen Cummings
(Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, in
setting the dates, the commission looked at the various areas where both
proponents and opponents would have an opportunity and a good logical setting
for them to appear and make their feelings known. While very often we have meetings in the city
of Winnipeg and expect rural Manitobans to drive in, this is one of those
situations where largely the interest that has been expressed up to this point,
both opposition and in favour of the project, is largely centred in the
* (1355)
Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Speaker, does the minister have any
environmental explanation or rationale for not having downstream communities
sited?
Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, I answered this same question last
week from the member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) about asking for additional sites
for the hearings. I suggested to him, as
I would suggest to this member, that if there are significant interests that are
expressed and concerns that cannot be answered by the present format, then I
hope the public will let the commission know.
Frankly, Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that
the locations are all within a very short driving range of those who have
expressed interest and concern, and we have accepted the commission's
recommendation.
Addendum
Ms. Marianne Cerilli
(Radisson): Mr. Speaker, the City of
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. This is not a time for debate.
Ms. Cerilli: Does the minister have a legal opinion on the
addendum proposed for the Assiniboine Diversion so that we can be assured that
these hearings are not for a project that is illegal because it is changing the
project in the middle of the environmental assessment?
Hon. Glen Cummings
(Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, the
staff who are reviewing the proposals have been very conscious of the fact that
there was an addendum brought in in the middle of the setting of the
guidelines, and they have been very conscious about making sure that the public
was made aware of this and that they had an opportunity and will have
continuing opportunity to comment on it.
I am quite concerned that the member would
suggest that there has been, in any way, an attempt to cut off debate or a lack
of encouragement for people to attend at the hearings. I suggest if there are others out there who
concur with her, they should let the commission know.
Autopac
Auto
Repair Estimates
Mr. Leonard Evans
(Brandon East): I have a question for the Minister
responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation.
Mr. Speaker, there is evidence that
runaway costs have led to exorbitant premium increases under this government,
and I now have evidence on Autopac repair assessments being substantially
higher than estimates of autobody shops.
A citizen came to me with five written
estimates on a 1989 Toyota Camry which received damage to front and rear doors
and the rear bumper. These estimates range
from‑‑the cheapest was $353 and up to $510.72; the next was
$605.34; $776.29, and the highest private autobody estimate was $1,105.44.
He then went to Autopac, and they gave him
an estimate of $1,449.16. That is over
$300 higher than the highest private estimate and four times higher than the
lowest‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Brandon East, put
his question, please.
Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, members opposite may be impatient,
but we have to put the information on the record.
Mr. Speaker: You did.
Order, please. Put your question,
please.
Mr. Leonard Evans: This gentleman is very upset, and my question
to the minister is: Why is there such a
dramatic difference between the private estimates and the Autopac estimates?
Hon. Glen Cummings
(Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Public Insurance
Corporation Act): Mr. Speaker, first of all, I hope he intends
to table that information so it can be reviewed in detail. Secondly, I presume that the member is
unaware that in terms of the cost of repairing the autobody repair side as
compared to the cost of repairing the human bodies in damage that occurred, the
autobody repair side, the tin and the plastic, the cost of increases there in
the last three years have been and are running at or below the rate of
inflation.
I would presume that the member has
researched this and found out that
Mr. Leonard Evans: I have another question of the minister.
I would ask the minister if he would
undertake an investigation of the methods and procedures now being used by
Autopac with a view to stopping what appears to be an overly generous
estimating procedure by Autopac, because another citizen came with the same
story, $375 for the private and $524 for Autopac.
* (1400)
Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, it is quite obvious that it has
been some time since the member has been reviewing some of the work that is
associated with autobody repair.
I will be glad to invest some considerable
amount of time in providing answers and the details he is asking for, but I
should remind you that it is very interesting that I get a lot of letters in my
office asking us why we are using recycled parts. People out there are of two
minds when they have their vehicles damaged, whether or not it should be
repaired to the absolute new condition or whether the cost‑saving
practice of using recycled parts is allowed.
I would be interested in that member's opinion.
Mr. Leonard Evans: Incidentally, this gentleman went to the
autobody shop that would do it for $600‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please.
Mr. Leonard Evans: Will this minister acknowledge that there
appears to be a two‑price system that has developed, one through Autopac
estimation and one through private autobody shop estimates? Will he take action now to stop what appears
to be a rip‑off situation?
Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, I asked the member to table that
information. I presume he will. That will be appropriately investigated and
answered. I would remind the member that
it was since this government came into office that we moved to eliminate the
rebating for replacement of windshields, which he thought was okay when he was
in office.
Stubble
Burning Enforcement
Mrs. Sharon Carstairs
(Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.
Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Environment.
On April 15 the minister, along with the
Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay), issued a statement and a policy with
regard to stubble burning. I asked the
question to the minister on Friday, because I had noticed some fires coming
back from Dauphin on the previous evening, and I got the following response
from the Minister of Environment. He
said: "If there were complaints
that were registered, we would respond to them." That sounded like a very positive statement
about what the Department of Environment was prepared to do. Several hours later, as I was driving in my
vehicle to the lake, I listened to an interview conducted by Jim Rae with Carl
Orcutt, the ADM of the Environmental Operations Division, who responded to a
question that there was no enforcement policy in the department with respect to
stubble burning.
Now, what are the citizens of this
province to believe‑‑the minister who says that they will respond
or the assistant deputy minister who says they do not have a policy?
Hon. Glen Cummings
(Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, I presume
that my comment will be the one that will be correct.
Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Second
Opposition referenced the fact that she saw some fires that were burning two
hours after dark. I would ask, did she
turn in a report? She did not. Secondly, the only call that I have had in my
office was from a person who said they saw a fire, and they were given the
number to call. They said, well, it is
no problem, and they hung up. So, if there
are concerns out there, the response will be available from the department.
The time of year in which we are presently
living is when we are basically allowing daytime burning unrestricted. We have the power that if that burning is
being done in such a way that it is causing difficulties for an urban area or
fires are left uncontrolled after dark, we have the authority to deal with them
and we will.
I really am concerned why the member is
not supporting this policy. It would
seem to me that this is the kind of approach that goes beyond the approach that
the Liberal Party ever asked for.
24‑Hour
Response Line
Mrs. Sharon Carstairs
(Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.
Speaker, I just want the policy enforced.
The minister says I did not report it.
Well, I thought I reported it to the highest authority, the minister
himself, at the earliest possible opportunity.
But, just to make sure that it was done properly, I looked up in my
directory. I could not find the 24‑hour
response line, so I phoned information, 2211, and I was referred to 5017. That,
I was told, was a wrong number, so then I was referred to 8132. I was then told that was not the right
number. Then I called Mr. Orcutt's
office, and I was told there would be no such number until September.
Can the minister tell the House today,
what is the 24‑hour response line that I am supposed to call to report?
Hon. Glen Cummings
(Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, I would
be interested to know the question that the member put to the people on the
other end of the line. If she asked if
this was an emergency line for stubble burning, the fact is, that line, the 1‑800
line is to be established in the fall.
If she has a complaint about a specific fire that is out of control,
then all she needs to do is say so when she is on that line.
Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, I was just following the
minister's advice. On Friday the
minister said, we have a 24‑hour response line at the department. So we called all of these numbers to find out
just what was the 24‑hour response line.
That is what we wanted to know.
Can the minister stand in the House and
tell me, as well as all the other citizens of the
Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, while this elicits some laughter on
our side, this is a serious situation, because she is misrepresenting the
information that I gave her. She also
misrepresented the information that she was receiving.
Mr. Speaker, the 1‑800 line for
responses to stubble burning complaints will be in position to deal with the
controlled period, which is starting the 1st of August this fall. If they have a problem with a fire that is
out of control today, call the 24‑hour line that is in existence, but do
not phone them and ask them if they are the stubble response line‑‑dumb.
Aboriginal
Farmers
Government
Assistance
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (
The Minister of Agriculture on Friday
indicated that he did not have any interest or responsibility for the aboriginal
farmers who are not able to get operating loans this spring, through no fault
of their own. However, they are
Has the minister lobbied the federal
government, or has he made contact with the Department of Indian Affairs or the
Department of Industry, Science and Technology to assure that the necessary
loans are in place so that rice growers and the rice processors can operate
this year? They are a vital part to
Hon. Glen Findlay
(Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, I regret
the member says I have no interest. That
is absolutely wrong. It was never
said. I wish she would apologize for
that misrepresentation.
I told her the process that is in place is
federal money for funding aboriginal farmers.
Aboriginal farmers, in addition to that, have access to all the existing
plans and programs in the Department of Agriculture in the
Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, I assume from that answer I
received, the minister is saying that aboriginal people can go to MACC for
loans.
Sugar Beet
Industry
Future
Status
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (
Has he made any decision, or has he taken
any action on the sugar beet farmers who are waiting for his decision on an
agreement? Can he tell us whether the
workers at the sugar beet plant will be working this year, or is that something
else that he does not care about‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question.
* (1410)
Hon. Glen Findlay
(Minister of Agriculture): That member knows so
little, she thinks she has all the answers.
I have had in the vicinity of a dozen
meetings on this issue with the company, with the
It is an increase in the expenditure in my
department for stabilization from $375,000 to $626,000 involving Agriculture
and Industry, Trade and Tourism. That
offer is on the table. The federal
government has made an offer in
Ms. Wowchuk: But, Mr. Speaker, the
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I remind the honourable member for
Alfalfa
Industry
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (
If there is no work‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question.
Hon. Glen Findlay
(Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, the
alfalfa industry has been developing in
Mr. John Plohman
(Dauphin): It really helped.
Mr. Findlay: The member for Dauphin does not care that we
are trying to help the alfalfa producers in
Mr. Speaker, we sent the mission to Japan
involving two individuals from the Interlake who are investigating the
possibility of setting up dehyd plants.
I will tell the member there is a very good market in
There are many, many companies in the
Seven Oaks
Concerned
Community Rally Government Representation
Mr. John Plohman
(Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, this evening at 7 p.m., the Seven
Oaks Concerned Community, consisting of parents, teachers, employee groups,
daycare workers and children, and others are staging a rally at the Legislature
to protest the government's insensitivity towards education and programs for
children.
They have asked the Minister of Finance
(Mr. Manness), the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer), the Minister
of Education (Mrs. Vodrey), and the Premier to explain themselves to those
assembled and yet have received no response from this government. I want to ask the Premier to indicate who
from his government will be explaining the government's policies to those
assembled, those concerned people at the Legislature tonight?
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): Mr. Speaker, this administration has, through
the course of the Budget Debate, put on the record a great deal of information
and all the various rationale and thought that went into the budget, the
priority choices, the difficult circumstances we face, have all been aired very
publicly.
I am sure that most Manitobans who are
interested are well aware of it, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Plohman: Well, Mr. Speaker, in light of the fact that the
Premier played ostrich when 4,000 people came out to the Legislature in a rally
to protest his cuts, will he now ensure that there is someone from his
government at the rally tonight to explain to those concerned people precisely
what the reasons are for the cuts that he has made to children in this
province?
Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, the member knows full well that
he has with him the luxury of irresponsibility of being in opposition, and
fomenting these kinds of demonstrations and encouraging all this. The fact of the matter is that reductions in
expenditure are taking place in every administration across the country,
including New Democratic administrations, to a much greater extent in some
other provinces.
Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, that does not provide the
answers. If the Premier is so sure that
he is doing the right thing and he can explain it, why will he not go out on
the steps and meet the people and explain the actions of his government face to
face?
Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, being in government is about
responsibility and taking serious actions.
It is not about political grandstanding that the New Democrats like to
participate in. The political
grandstanding will gain them exactly what they deserve.
Universities
Impact of
Workweek Reduction
Ms. Jean Friesen
(Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, my question
is for the Minister of Education.
I wanted to ask the minister: Has her ministry or the government conducted
any inquiries into the potential impact of its reduced workweek on the quality
of education at
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey
(Minister of Education and Training): Mr.
Speaker, we did ask the universities to look at a version of the workweek
reduction and suggested to them that some of the time that might be used at the
university level was the time of the Christmas holidays.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, could the minister confirm then
that under the proposed cutback plans of the
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, again, there are a number of
optional time periods in which the university may like to look at the workweek
reduction and what the member is now saying in the House. I think she should look at not necessarily
putting that information on the record unless she is absolutely sure that is
what has been put forward, because there are a number of other options which
are available to the universities.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, could the minister then
undertake to review the universities' plans with the universities in order to
ensure that the quality of education and the quantity of education at
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, again, the quality of education
within our universities is of great concern and of interest to this government,
and we have in fact commissioned the Roblin commission to look at university
education in this province and the universities. I have spoken about a possible application of
the workweek reduction, but in every case, this government has said that where
it is applied we should make sure that the quality of education is the first
and foremost importance as it is applied.
Budget
Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin
Flon): Mr. Speaker, when Manitobans started reviewing
the budget document tabled by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), I think
they became concerned about fudging of the figures. Another example of that is the decision by
the government to raid Manitoba Mineral Resources to the tune of some $16
million and include that as government revenue so that the government would
look good by reducing their deficit on a one‑time basis some $16 million.
My question to the minister responsible
for Manitoba Mineral Resources is: Was
there any discussion with the mining companies, the mining communities, the
board of directors of Manitoba Mineral Resources, about the potential impact of
taking some $16 million out of the reserves of the Manitoba Mineral Resources
on the corporation and potentially on the communities which are involved on a
joint venture basis with MMR?
Hon. James Downey
(Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr.
Speaker, the question, I believe, specifically is raised as to whether there
were discussions prior to the budget being brought down with the mining
companies as it relates to that type of budget decision. I think the member should be well aware of
the fact that those kinds of budgetary decisions are not communicated
extensively publicly. It is my
understanding that there were discussions with the chairman of the board of MMR
but not with the industry at large.
Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired.
* * *
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I believe the honourable member for Brandon
East (Mr. Leonard Evans) wants to table his documents.
Mr. Leonard Evans
(Brandon East): Yes, I would like to table the documents I
referred to on the autobody estimates.
* (1420)
Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the honourable member
for Brandon East.
ORDERS OF
THE DAY
Hon. Darren Praznik
(Deputy Government House Leader): Mr.
Speaker, I would move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Natural Resources
(Mr. Enns), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair, and that this House
resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her
Majesty.
Motion agreed to, and the House resolved
itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty
with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for
the Department of Family Services; and the honourable member for
COMMITTEE
OF SUPPLY
(Concurrent
Sections)
FAMILY
SERVICES
Mr. Deputy Chairperson
(Marcel Laurendeau): Will the Committee of Supply please come to
order.
This afternoon, this section of the
Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will resume consideration of the
Estimates of Family Services. When the
committee last sat, it had been considering item 1.(d)(1) on page 54 of the
Estimates book.
Mr. Doug Martindale
(Burrows): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would like to follow
up on some of the questions that were asked by the member for Crescentwood (Ms.
Gray) on the Social Services Advisory Committee.
First of all, I wonder if the minister
could give us the names of the current members‑‑not necessarily
now, but a list of the members.
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer
(Minister of Family Services): Mr.
Deputy Chairperson, yes, I can give you those names: Caroline Sopuck, Judy Slaughter, Elsie
Janzen, Orma Graham, Arlene Crabbe, Natalie Dobrowolski, Marnie Skastfeld, Nadia
Davage, Clare De'Athe, Penny Fraser, Josie Lucidi, Eileen Forsyth, Tara
Brousseau, Hal Sveistrup.
Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell us if any of those
people are social assistance recipients?
* (1430)
Mr. Gilleshammer: I do not believe they are.
Mr. Martindale: Would the minister give consideration in the
future, when there is opportunity to make an appointment, to appointing someone
who is a social assistance recipient or perhaps someone who has experience
working for an organization that provides service to recipients, particularly a
nongovernment organization such as the Manitoba Anti‑Poverty
Organization?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I would say to the member that I think
government is always looking for good people to appoint to boards and
commissions. I know one of the member's
seatmates was very active in this area before.
I am sure she would tell you the same thing, that it is incumbent on
government to have a broad cross section of people serving on advisory boards
and committees and commissions, and government is always looking for members
who will make a valuable contribution.
Mr. Martindale: So I take it, the minister would at least be
open to appointing a social assistance recipient.
Mr. Gilleshammer: I guess one of the things is, I would have to
check with the legal department of government to see whether there is any
perceived conflict in doing so. Other
than that, my answer stands that government is always open to finding citizens
of the province who can make a valuable contribution to boards and commissions.
Mr. Martindale: Thank you for that offer. If the minister does consult with the legal
department, I would be interested in knowing the answer.
Were these people, for the most part,
appointed at the same time, under the same Order‑in‑Council? If so, were they provided training before
they started sitting as panelists? If
so, what kind of training and for how long and how much training?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The answer to the first question is no. The answer to the second question is yes,
that training is provided. There is a basic orientation given to board members
as they come on board and the orientation is ongoing as they learn their
responsibilities.
Mr. Martindale: My concern is that since this is a very
important board, I think there should be training or that people should be
recruited who are knowledgeable in this area or who have experience on other
boards or commissions. Now I think there
is an inherent problem here, and that is that this is not a high‑profile
board. It may be difficult in fact to
recruit people for it.
We are not talking about the board of
Manitoba Hydro. We are not talking about
a board where the per diem rates are high.
We are talking about a board where the per diem rates are quite
modest. I think that is a bit of a
problem because it seems to me that, because of that, the panelists are very
open to being influenced by the staff on the panel.
Of particular concern then is who the
chairperson is of the appeal panel, although I suppose, since they are sitting
in panels of three, at each meeting, one person must act as chair. My
understanding is that with many government boards and commissions, the
chairperson is often a lawyer or someone who has previous experience being
chair of a board or commission.
Can you tell me if any of the people on this
panel are lawyers or have had previous experience chairing boards or
commissions?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am not absolutely sure if any of them have
had experience as a lawyer, but as far as chairing other organizations, the
answer is yes. Some of them have had
that experience. Again, with boards and
commissions that government is responsible for, I think by and large you are
looking for a cross‑section of Manitobans to serve in some capacity.
The member references the fact that on
some, what he calls, high‑profile boards, you need specific types of
individuals. I presume lawyers is what
he is referring to. I would hope that
does not become a prerequisite for people to serve government on boards. I think, as I indicated in my first answer,
government is always looking for a broad cross‑section of Manitobans who
are prepared to serve on these boards across all departments.
My experience, since I have been involved
as an MLA, is that there are hundreds and hundreds of people who accept these
appointments for a period of time, and by and large they work well. I will concede that there are specific boards
that call for specific criteria and backgrounds, and I am sure those things are
taken into consideration.
Mr. Martindale: I think it would be helpful if at least one
panelist was a lawyer, since the decisions that are being made are very
critical to the recipients, and therefore, I think legal training would be
helpful. I would assume that some of the
decisions that are made become precedents.
I know that only matters of law can be appealed to the courts, so I
think legal training would be helpful.
Also, it seems that there is a very low
rate of success. If one looks at the
statistics that were provided on Thursday‑‑I am just going by
memory, but I think there was a very small percentage of something like, was it
65 successful appellants out of over a thousand? So a very small number are successful.
If it is in order, I would like to ask a
question about the notice given to people saying that they can appeal. This may more properly fall under Income
Security, but they are appealing to the Social Services Advisory Committee, so
if the minister will accept a couple of questions on that.
I had occasion to help one of my
constituents who received a notice saying that she was cut off provincial
social assistance, and there was no date on the notice. Can the minister tell us if that is standard
practice or if this was an anomaly?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in reference to the first
part of the member's comments, the board does have legal advice available, that
if they should require the services of a lawyer, that is at their
disposal. On the question of notice, my
understanding is that the normal way of doing business is to have a date on the
letter, and I believe they have 15 days in which to launch an appeal if they so
wish. That is 15 calendar days.
Mr. Martindale: So the fact that there was not a date on this
particular letter was an exception, not the rule.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, that was an error, and all of the
information, as the member, I am sure, is aware, that is sent out should have a
date on it.
Mr. Martindale: It is my understanding that notice
requirements are to be in writing and give reasons for why people are being cut
off, not just the date of termination.
However, I understand that quite often what happens in fact is that
people are contacted and told, we are holding your cheque; please come in, we
would like to talk to you, or, we want you to do this and this. Therefore, it is conditional whether or not
they continue to get social assistance rather than legal. Either they are getting it or they are not. If they are not, then they should get a
proper termination notice.
Can the minister tell us if in fact that
is the practice? If so, why is that
happening? What are the circumstances
which lead to that?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the individual
circumstances of clients can change. If,
in those circumstances, they no longer are eligible for particular benefits,
then they of course have to be notified.
I have said to the member before that if
people qualify for social allowances and they come within our guidelines, we
will be sure that they get fair treatment.
As far as notification, it is important that notification be in writing,
and that the clients have an opportunity to fully understand what it is about
their circumstances that no longer would qualify them for a certain level of
assistance or whether they no longer are able to get assistance at all. I think it is important that individual
clients do get reasons, and that the department does try to provide those
reasons.
Mr. Martindale: The minister says that it is important. My understanding is that frequently
appellants do not find out the reasons until the date of the hearing, which
seems quite unfair to me. I would like
the minister to comment on that, if it is correct. I would be happy to be informed that it is
not correct, but I understand that occasionally or sometimes appellants do not
find out the reasons until the hearing.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member has to
appreciate that a good percentage of the clients also are part of the municipal
system, where if they have some question about whether they should be accessing
social allowances or whether they are discontinued, the actual administration,
the actual work of dealing with that particular client, is done by one of 200
municipalities. Similarly, we have about
26,000 to 27,000 cases at the provincial level.
The person who perhaps is having their
benefits adjusted or having them terminated will be given, in writing, the
reasons for that termination or that adjustment. I would believe that it may be possible that
written documentation does not give an explanation in a way that may be
acceptable to the client, and further discussion of that could well take place
at the hearing.
* (1440)
Mr. Martindale: Does the Social Services Advisory Committee
have a procedural manual or directive for appellants for them to consult so
that they know what their rights are and how the appeal proceeds? I guess I am asking if they are given advice
on the appeal procedures.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, there is a brochure.
Mr. Martindale: Could I get a copy of the brochure?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, we will provide that.
Mr. Martindale: Thank you.
I understand that there is also a medical
review panel. Could the minister tell me what kinds of cases go to the medical
review panel and how they are handled?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member is
referring to provincial clients who are disabled and go on the provincial
system. To qualify for that designation,
clients are panelled and their circumstances are presented to a medical review
panel consisting of a number of people, including a medical practitioner, a
doctor, the director of a district office and a counsellor.
Mr. Martindale: Can decisions of the medical review panel be
appealed, and if so, to whom?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The answer is yes. It can be appealed, and it is appealed to the
Social Services Advisory Committee.
Mr. Martindale: In the Activity Identification, it says that
the Social Services Advisory Committee acts in an advisory capacity to the
minister on matters of policy. Can the minister
tell us if, in the last year, the Social Services Advisory Committee has raised
policy issues with you, and if so, what kinds of issues and what response has
the minister made to them?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The answer to that is yes that I have met with
the chair of the committee on a number of occasions, and I have also met with
the entire committee. On the previous
day we had Estimates, I was able to go through a list, just half of it, mind
you, of a number of the reforms that we have brought into the whole area of
economic security of social allowances.
The member could either read those in Hansard or if he likes I would be
pleased to go through them again. You
have them? Okay.
Government calls on many groups in society
for advice. I have also had the
opportunity to meet with the staff and the board from MAPO, from the SACOM and
from WORD, and all of them have had an opportunity to provide government with
input.
Mr. Martindale: The minister said that he listed half of the
initiatives. Are there other initiatives
that the minister would like to discuss now?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, if you would like to take the time, I
just have to get my book here. I thank
you for the opportunity.
We did discuss the annual increase in
rates and the work that goes into rate setting.
I just had the opportunity on Friday, and I would like to thank the
member for the pair that he gave me to allow me to go to a conference with
western colleagues, where we talked about rates, not only in the western
provinces but across the country. Rates,
of course, are just one of the considerations in the total package, and I am
pleased the member is interested, because I think more and more you have to
look at the total package of exemptions and benefits that go into this area.
I did have a chance to spend a few minutes
on the Income Assistance for the Disabled, which was a new program we started
last year, and we have been able to enhance with about a 16 or 17 percent
increase in that particular benefit. We
also talked about the introduction of the Supplementary Benefit, and I
certainly complimented the member for his support of government in that
area. I know, from time to time, the
member has some ideas on that that perhaps are kind of a moving target, but I
remember at the time the endorsement that he gave to that particular benefit.
The exemption of a children's trust assets
is one that does not apply to a lot of cases, but in June of 1991, an exemption
of $25,000 was established for a children's trust assets held on behalf of a
child 18 years of age resulting from some significant loss in the circumstances
of the family of that child.
The assistance for school supplies was
announced in August of 1991, where dependent high school students of Social
Allowance households were provided an allowance of up to $80 for the purchase
of school supplies. I mention, too, the
flow‑through of the GST benefits that came from the federal government
with the adoption of the GST, and again, it brings to mind all of those
exemptions that come from various levels of government and I know we used to
all access the children's allowance for our children when they were in their
younger years.
One of the things I learned this past
Friday was that
* (1450)
Probably one of the changes that had the
biggest impact on some recipients is the increase in the liquid asset exemption
levels, and I know the member is very supportive of that. The previous government, of course, did not
see fit to make that change and the level was at $400 for a person and $2,000
for a family. This was dramatically
increased for disabled people. It went
up to $2,000 for the first person; for nondisabled it became $1,000. For the second person, disabled, it was an
additional $1,000, and for nondisabled, another additional $1,000. Each additional dependent was $500, and new
family maximums in the disabled community rose to $4,000.
In the nondisabled, it rose to $3,000, and
this allowed a tremendous amount of flexibility with those families to retain
some of their income whether it was exempted income from government or from
other sources or perhaps money they accessed through part‑time work or
savings that they were able to accumulate for whatever reason. So that was a significant change.
Another change was the head‑of‑household
policy. Provincial social allowances
eligibility guidelines have been changed to eliminate gender discrimination in
that area. Effective September 1, 1992,
couples applying for assistance can now have their eligibility based on either
adult in the household. I noticed the
member praised that move at this time, and I know he has in the past. I appreciate his consistency there. This is an issue that had been around for
decades that governments knew about and chose not to make the change, and I
appreciate it does take time to change the regulations and look at the impact
that they have.
Another reform has been the municipal
assistance regulation where the 200‑odd municipalities within the
province that had rates that truly were different from one municipality to
another, where access to social allowances varied from one jurisdiction to
another, through the passage of legislation last year we were able to move to a
common rate and a common eligibility.
We also have made some changes in
wheelchair transportation for social reasons.
This policy was changed November 1, 1992, to allow some increased
flexibility in the use of wheelchair transportation. The allocation of two trips per months using
private transportation has now been changed to provide for 24 preauthorized
trips per year which can be used at the discretion of the client. I can tell you that many of the members of
the WORD organization, whom I met with on a number of occasions, have been very
pleased with this change, so that they can now more fully determine some of
their travel, and as you can well expect, they may choose to use more of that
in the winter months than in times of the year when they can get around a
little better on their own.
Perhaps the final one I will mention is
the extension of health benefits to clients who are leaving the system. This is one that one of the other provinces
is currently looking at. I think maybe
it is
So these are reforms that have come into
the system basically in the last two years, and again I certainly thank all of
the people who have brought information forward to government to allow us to
better understand the issues and to allow us to make these changes.
Mr. Martindale: Those changes are a very interesting list,
and I am familiar with most of them from previous announcements and press
releases. I wonder if the minister could
tell us if he has discussed with the Social Services Advisory Committee the
numerous recommendations that he has received, for example, in correspondence
from the staff at St. Matthews‑Maryland Community Ministry in briefs from
the Manitoba Anti‑Poverty Organization.
In the
Mr. Gilleshammer: All of the groups the member has mentioned
have brought information and ideas before government which are currently being
considered. Specifically, the work
incentive is something that I am very much interested in, and the member may be
aware that there are pilot projects that are currently underway in
I look forward to a meeting early this
summer whereby those provinces will be represented, and hopefully the federal
government, to discuss this whole issue of work incentives and having people
transition back into the workforce.
As I said the other day, and I am not sure
the member read it, when you look at the comments made by Premier Bob Rae in
talking about the caseload growth in
I know last year with the City of
Some of those would later access
unemployment insurance; some perhaps would learn skills which would take them
into the job market. I think it is fair
to say that every government in
Mr. Martindale: Those remarks are very interesting, because I
think what your government is doing is moving in the opposite direction of
flowing funds to clients who can access jobs.
For example, last year the Human Resources Opportunity Centre in Selkirk
was closed. This year the centre in
Dauphin is being closed.
The changes to child care are going to
force people to lose their spot in child care and then out of the workforce or
out of education. I just had someone
come to see me today, someone who was on social assistance, a single parent who
went back to school and finished school, took computer training, got a job, was
laid off and now has two weeks instead of eight weeks to find employment. She is making a very good effort to find a
job. She was at five places this morning
with her resume, and she has been to
I would like you to explain to us how you
think that it is encouraging clients to get jobs when you are cutting off
educational opportunities through eliminating the student social assistance
program by reducing the number of weeks that people can search for work and
keep their child care place. How does
the minister rationalize or justify these as decisions which encourage people
to access jobs?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I just indicated to the
member earlier that the tremendous impact of caseload growth in provinces such
as
* (1500)
The member references the human resource
centres. These now have been transferred
to the Department of Education, but I do not mind spending a minute talking
about them. In some cases, that training
is available nearby. In other cases, the
Department of Education will be making provision for training through another
delivery system.
The child care funding, again, I have said
to the member that our expenses there last year were in excess of $50
million. I know, talking to the minister
from
Our printed line for daycare is still in
excess of what our print was last year.
So we will be dedicating, through the budget process, additional funding
for child care. I can tell you, in
meeting with my colleagues, it is well recognized that
Having said that, we are not able to
completely meet the demand that is out there, but that is the case with a lot
of programming that we are responsible for.
We will, through our daycare staff, make the best efforts we can to
accommodate individuals who need daycare.
We have an additional 3,000 spaces today, on this anniversary of our
election in 1988, a tremendous increase in the number of licensed spaces that
are available. In addition, we have many
thousands more individuals who are accessing subsidies. Those subsidies go to those people who most
need that support.
The member referenced the student social allowances
program. Again, unfortunately, this was one of the decisions we had to make in
spending less in this department. It is
a program that existed nowhere else in
Mr. Martindale: I would like to ask the minister if you have
decided as a provincial government that you would like to participate in a
program like B.C. or
Mr. Gilleshammer: The experiments in B.C. and
Mr. Martindale: Is your government interested in taking part
or is it conditional on being able to access the federal government money?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, our preference would be to have federal
input into any programs here in
Mr. Martindale: I am not sure what the minister's position is
now. I think it is conditional on
getting federal funding.
Going back to the minister's remarks on
child care, I would agree that
I mean, that was the predicament of the
person who came to see me this morning, that she is afraid that she is going to
fall back into social assistance. She
was on social assistance. She had two
children. She used the adolescent parent
program of Winnipeg School Division No. 1 to finish her high school and got
further training in computers, got a work placement, was laid off, and now she
has two weeks to find a job. She is very
concerned that she is not going to get a job because it is not long enough for
a job search, and she is going to be back on social assistance.
In fact, I would suggest that it is going
to cost the government more to support this single parent with two children on
social assistance than to have children in subsidized child care. I am not positive about that. I would like to sit down and actually figure
it out first, but I think this minister and his government would rather see
people working and in the paid workforce and paying taxes than staying home and
collecting social assistance.
So I would like the minister to try and
justify this decision of reducing the number of weeks of child care that are
subsidized in order to find a job from eight weeks to two.
Mr. Gilleshammer: The member uses the past tense when he says
that we had the highest standards in
As a result of demand, we are now in the
position where we have to put some limits on that and, as a result, have capped
the licensing, frozen the licensing for daycare spaces. I would remind the member that this was a
request last year from the daycare community which felt there were too many
spaces coming on stream. We unfroze that
for a while and have again frozen it, but are looking at some new ideas in that
area.
* (1510)
We have also had to cap the subsidies,
simply because we have to stay within a budget there. As a result, while good cases, I am sure,
will come forward while the system is forced to pause, the alternative is to
put millions more dollars into an already high
Mr. Martindale: My understanding is that there are people in
the community who want to be licensed and they meet the standards, but now,
because of the capping, they will not get a licence. According to the
Estimates, they can appeal a decision not to be given a licence to the Social
Services Advisory Committee.
What is going to happen if someone applies
for a licence and they are turned down and they appeal the decision? What will they be told are the reasons for
being denied the licence?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The freezing of the spaces, I told you we
were looking at something there, but at the moment, they are frozen. The appeal
process is meant for people who felt that, for some reason, they did not get
fair treatment from an application to access child care. If spaces are not available, centres cannot
produce those spaces at this particular time, and it may be a question of
accessing that service at another daycare if that one is full or going on a
waiting list. Waiting lists are not a
new situation in
Mr. Martindale: I have a similar question, and that is if
someone applies for a subsidy and they are turned down, they have the right to
appeal. If they appeal to the Social
Services Advisory Committee, what will they be told?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The Social Services Advisory Committee will
have to weigh their arguments. If the
licensing has been frozen and the subsidies have been capped, there simply is
no additional money that we can put into the system. In many parts of our department, we do have
waiting lists, particularly in the Community Living. The one statutory obligation we have is in
the social allowances area, where we have to meet that demand, but if spaces do
not exist and if subsidies do not exist, then individuals will have to go on a
waiting list.
Mr. Martindale: The minister spoke about the student social
allowances program earlier. What are
these students going to do in September?
We know that they can apply for city social assistance. We also know that they will not be able to go
to school because, if they are on city assistance, then they are considered
employable and they must be available for work and looking for work.
Is that scenario correct? Will these students be forced to drop out of
school and look for work while they collect city assistance?
Mr. Gilleshammer: There probably are a number of answers to
that question. I have indicated in the
case of some of those students they may be able to remain with their parents
and access assistance there. Some
students will do what students have always done and that is to work part time
and go to school part time.
Municipalities in framing their by‑laws may have within those by‑laws
the opportunity for students to access some assistance and, at the same time,
attend an educational institution on a part‑time basis. If they are able to access work, then that
work placement would support them.
Mr. Martindale: How much does your department anticipate that
they are going to save by offloading this expense to the City of
(Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy
Chairperson, in the Chair)
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, the member perhaps did not listen to my
answer. I said there were a number of
solutions to that. It will depend on
what solution the recipient chooses to take.
We have always had people who have worked
part time and gone to school part time.
I indicated that there will be some who have the opportunity to return
home and live with family. I indicated
municipalities will have some flexibility in framing by‑laws which may
allow for part‑time education and still access some social allowances.
Mr. Martindale: Under the former or soon‑to‑be‑terminated
student social allowances program, what were the eligibility requirements to be
on the student social assistance program?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The program was primarily there for people 18
years of age and over going to school on a full‑time basis and making
satisfactory progress.
Mr. Martindale: Is it not correct that people on city or
municipal social assistance who are employable must be available for work and
looking for work?
Mr. Gilleshammer: What the member says is correct. I indicated that municipalities, in framing
their by‑laws, will have some latitude to have students pursue on a part‑time
basis some education and at the same time have some assistance from the
municipality, again depending on how they frame their by‑law.
Mr. Martindale: I think we will have to revisit this when we
get to Income Security so that I have some time to consult with people from the
City of
Can the minister tell us how much money
his department anticipates they will save as the result of eliminating this
program?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I would answer that by saying that the budget
line last year was $4.3 million, but it will depend on the solutions that are
found by individuals who were accessing that program, some of whom will be
graduating.
Mr. Martindale: So the minister does not have a precise
figure on how much money you think you will save.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I am saying to you, it will be a
portion of that amount. We will have to
monitor it, and I would suspect a year from now we could give you a precise
answer.
Mr. Martindale: I would like to go back to some questions
more specific to the Social Services Advisory Committee. Could the minister tell us what changes there
were in the number of appeals from the statistics that were given last Thursday
in Estimates and the previous year? Were
the number of appeals up or down? Were the number of successful appeals up or
down? What sort of changes were there
from year to year?
* (1520)
Mr. Gilleshammer: There has been an increase in the number of
appeals. We just have a partial number
for '92‑93. Until the end of
December, there were 887, which would put us probably pretty close to being on
target of the previous years where there were close to 1,200 appeals. In 1990‑91, there were around a
thousand, so the number of appeals have increased, but then the number of cases
have also increased. The number of
appeals that have been successful do not show a great difference year over
year.
Mr. Martindale: Do we have the specific numbers for '90‑91?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, the member is
asking for '90‑91. There were 973
cases; 66 of them were allowed; 333 were dismissed. The balance was disposed of by having them
withdrawn, and that was 455. These are
cases where a satisfactory explanation has been given after the appeal has been
filed and close to 50 percent of them then are dealt with in that way.
Mr. Martindale: What are some of the reasons given for
appeals being withdrawn? Does this mean
withdrawn by the client?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, the client has withdrawn because in the
interim has received a satisfactory explanation or found another way to address
the situation. Some may have achieved
employment, others may simply have moved, but basically it is people who have a
satisfactory explanation.
Mr. Martindale: I have some of the statistics for changes in
caseload by Income Security division social allowances program. I assume that
some people whose cases are closed appeal the decision so I guess we could
discuss this now under Income Security.
Do you have a preference?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Whatever you like.
Mr. Martindale: Okay.
I have the monthly caseload, and it says, reason for case closure by
category. I have from May 23, '92, back
to January 25, 1991. I would like to ask
specifically about one category of people whose case file was closed, and that
is disabled. If you look at the numbers,
it is very consistent. For example, 55 cases were closed in June 1992; previous
month, 61; previous month, 56; previous month, 51. All of these numbers are right on 50 or
slightly over 50. The highest is about
64. The lowest I have here is 46. What
it appears is that there may be some kind of informal quota.
I had better put that in the form of a
question. I am wondering if people who
are disabled, who normally are on provincial social assistance because they are
disabled and unable to work, are routinely being cut off or their benefits
discontinued so that they are forced to apply for city assistance, whether that
is happening for a reason. There seems
to be a pattern here. What is the reason
for the pattern? Why these particular
numbers?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Your conclusion has no basis in fact. If you would like to table the documents that
you are referring to, we will get you an explanation.
Mr. Martindale: I will table the documents because I am very
interested in an answer, and perhaps at a future time during Estimates, the
minister can come back to this and provide us with an explanation.
Would the minister give consideration to extending
the length of the appeal period from 15 days to say 30 days? For example, the constituent who asked me for
assistance brought me a letter that had no date, so I did not know when the
person was cut off the benefits. This
individual did not have a telephone, so it was difficult for me to provide
assistance other than relying on the individual to keep returning to my office.
First of all, does the minister think that
the appeal period is too short, and if so, would you give consideration to
extending the appeal period?
Mr. Gilleshammer: In the almost three years that I have been
here, nobody has raised that as an issue before, that I recall. The reason for
the time period, in my mind, would be to see that recipients can get their
situation adjudicated as quickly as possible.
If they require assistance, then assistance can be given in a timely
fashion and those decisions rendered.
Again, I am prepared to talk to staff
about that, and other stakeholders who may have an opinion, but I would think that
it was weighted on behalf of the client so that they did not have to sit and
wait for an entire month before their appeal is dealt with.
Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell us the name of the
manager or acting manager of the Social Services Advisory Committee and also
the second person in command in that office?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The manager is here with us at the table
today, Tim Herkert, and the person who is second in command there is Isabel
Furtado.
(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)
Mr. Martindale: Well, I know Mr. Herkert, and it is a very
good appointment.
My concern is that people from the
department are coming into the Social Services Advisory Committee, and I am
wondering if that means that they are as objective as they could be. It may depend on the person's background
before they started working for the department, but I guess my concern is that
they may feel that their job or their duty or obligation is to defend the
interests of the department or to defend the public purse because some of the
decisions that are made may decrease the cost to the provincial
government. So I am wondering on what
basis the decision is made to appoint a manager and what the qualifications are
that the minister is looking for when he appoints that person.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, the member perhaps does not know that
the civil service has a process by which positions are bulletined, then
applications come in, interviews are held by a board, and decisions are made. So the selection of managers and others into
civil service positions is always within the guidelines of the Civil Service
Commission, that the process that has been in place for many, many years is
followed.
Mr. Martindale: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am finished with my
questions for this page. I would like to
give the other critic an opportunity to ask questions.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 1.(d)(1) Salaries $117,700‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $149,600‑‑pass.
1.(e) Management Services (1) Financial
and Administrative Services (a) Salaries $1,885,700.
* (1530)
Mrs. Sharon Carstairs
(Leader of the Second Opposition): I would
like to get into a discussion of the function of this department which is
listed in the Detailed Estimates as administering the Social Allowances Health
Services program. What aspect of that
program remains?
Mr. Gilleshammer: That entire service still remains. There was some downsizing of it in terms of
benefits being delayed and some reduced benefits, but we still have a
substantial budget in that area.
Mrs. Carstairs: Would the minister like to give us a detailed
role now for this particular function?
The announcements that we had were that dental and optical services were
no longer to be provided. What is being
provided from this department, from this section of the department?
Mr. Gilleshammer: There is $14.7 million dedicated to optical,
dental and pharmaceutical services to social allowance recipients.
Mrs. Carstairs: Who qualifies for the optical, dental and
pharmaceutical services provided by this department?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Any clients who qualify for social allowances
will get a health card which qualifies them for optical, dental and
pharmaceutical. There were some changes
made to that program, which, I think, took some $3 million out of the program,
but we are still going to be spending, to have an anticipated spending of $14.7
million; of that, some $11.1 million on pharmaceuticals, a little less than $1
million on optical and almost $2.8 million on dental.
Mrs. Carstairs: Well, perhaps, I will make it easier. Exactly what were the $3‑million
cuts? Who has been taken off? Who is still there? Why were some taken off, some still
remain? What was the basis of the
decision making here?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I will give you some
more detail on that. In the reduction to
dental benefits, there was some elimination of restorative services for all
adults on social assistance, and there were some limits put on restorative to
other recipients. In dental and optical,
there was a deferment of dental and optical benefits for the first three months
for all new enrollments and re‑enrollments, and in the drug area it
reduced the drug benefits available to social assistance recipients, limiting
them to those that were covered by Pharmacare.
Mrs. Carstairs: There has been a 20 percent reduction,
approximately, of this program, and yet there is not a 20 percent reduction in
this department in terms of personnel or anything else. If one sees this kind of cutout, if you are
not going to be dealing with these people, why do we not see a similar
reduction in the administrative costs?
Mr. Gilleshammer: We did have a staff reduction of one in this
area, but the amount of processing of paper for the 27,000 cases on the
provincial system still remains. If our
experience is that the workload is reduced further because of this, then it
will be a consideration to make those adjustments.
Mrs. Carstairs: Can the minister tell me, what is the average
length of stay of a person on social assistance?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, on the municipal
caseload, the recipients are now on the municipal social allowances longer than
they were before. It is going upwards of
a year. On the provincial caseload, we
have long‑term recipients in terms of the disabled, some of whom will be
on for the remainder of their life. With
the single mothers, again, some of them will access jobs in short order; others
stay on for longer periods of time. I do
not have an average there, but part of the reason of giving the health card for
a year to that group and the disabled was to make their transition into the
workforce easier for them.
Mrs. Carstairs: Can the minister tell us, if he does not have
the average of length of time, and I realize that provincial people tend to be
there long term, is it 20 percent who are on for less than three months, or 40
percent who are on for three months and would therefore never qualify for any
of these benefits?
* (1540)
Mr. Gilleshammer: The single parents, probably an average of about
five years; the disabled, again, in many cases, for a lifetime.
Mrs. Carstairs: Well, the minister cannot have it quite that
way. He said people on municipal
assistance were on there up to a year.
Now he is telling me that single parents are on there for five years.
Point of
Order
Mr. Gilleshammer: The single parents are part of the provincial
caseload.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable minister did not have a point
of order. It is a dispute over the
facts.
* * *
Mrs. Carstairs: The question then is exactly the same as it
was before. You said that up to a year
people were on municipal assistance, and I am asking you: What is the percentage of those who would be
on less than three months and therefore would never qualify for this program?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I thought the member was asking of the
provincial caseload, where we have the long‑term clients. The length of stay for people on the
municipal caseload is truly a moving target, as people access it when their UI
expires. They access it because they
have been unable to find work.
We are saying that the average stay for
people on the municipal rolls now is about a year, and this is an issue that
municipalities bring up with us, that the definition of long‑term is an
issue at the municipal level. When does
a long‑term recipient move from a municipal level of assistance to the
provincial? Again, there is a paneling
process that takes place to determine that.
So we do not have an average of how many
access the system and stay less than three months. There has been no need to compile that in the
past, but we will gain some experience in this current year and be able to give
you an answer to that.
Mrs. Carstairs: If you have no information of that type, what
was the decision and what were the factors in the decision to say that people
should not get any of these benefits for three months?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Clearly, the decision is a budgetary decision
to allow us to spend less money in that area, but it is also consistent with
people who access the civil service program.
It is consistent with programs in the private sector. Unfortunately, we
are not able to be as generous in the coming year with this program as we have
been in the past.
Mrs. Carstairs: Surely, the minister recognizes, though, that
people who turn to social assistance have usually turned there because all of
their options have been closed to them, other than that.
They have run out of UIC, which is now
going to be 57 percent of what their previous income was. They cannot find employment, which means they
have probably put off discretionary spending of any form whatsoever, and that
may well include the purchase of new eyeglasses if that is what they require,
yet the minister has said, well, they are going to be treated exactly like a
civil servant who has to wait three months for their benefit package to chip
in, but the person who has been hired into the civil service rarely has been on
his last legs in terms of other programs available to them. I really want to know if the minister
considers this a fair initiative with respect to those who require eyeglasses
or drug care or, in fact, dental restorative work.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Perhaps some additional information would
give the member more comfort. Emergency service
will continue where necessary during the waiting period. I have indicated that waiting periods are
common in private health plans, and this brings the plan more in line with
private plans. Essential pharmaceutical
products and services will continue to be provided, and exceptions can be made
in consultation with a physician where individual circumstances warrant
it. The coverage of the pharmaceuticals
still will exceed that available through Pharmacare. As I indicated some months ago when we made
this announcement that there is the ability of clients to use exempted sources
of income if they wish.
Mrs. Carstairs: The minister indicated, I thought, and
perhaps I was incorrect, that the drug benefits had been cut to those
pharmaceuticals no longer listed under Pharmacare, but he just seems to have
said that they exceed those available under Pharmacare. Perhaps I could have a clarification.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I am sorry, and I understand the
confusion there. It was reduced in
coverage. It does cover everything that
is covered through Pharmacare plus some additional products. I could maybe give a few examples of that:
prenatal vitamins for expectant mothers; most children's cough and cold
mixtures; Extra‑Strength Tylenol and pediatric Tylenol drops; children's
vitamins and some others.
Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am pleased with the
ones that he has listed, because those are all necessary products. There is just one area, and maybe he just did
not list it, and that is the whole issue of antihistamines for children and
social assistance recipients who suffer from severe allergies. I have a personal interest in this because I
know how much I spend in the spring and fall.
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that all children's products are
covered.
Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, can the minister tell
us, what is this "Other"? I
mean, it has gone from $135,000 to $121,500, obviously a substantial portion of
the Other Expenditures. What is this
$121,000 for?
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Could I ask the honourable member which page
she is on in the supplement?
Mrs. Carstairs: Yes, in the Detailed Estimates, I am on page
31.
Mr. Gilleshammer: If I have got the right line here, there is a
reduction from $135,000 in '92‑93 to $121,000. The majority of that budget line is for
computer services‑‑$113,000 of the $121,000.
Mrs. Carstairs: Is that computer services strictly for
financial and administration, or would it also be the computer services for the
Social Allowances Health Services program, and anything else that is in this
department?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told it is for the accounting
procedures.
Mrs. Carstairs: Does this involve the purchase of new
equipment, or is it now all just payments that have to go out for the actual computer
work?
Mr. Gilleshammer: No, none of that is capital.
Mrs. Carstairs: So is this monies now being paid out to what
used to be Manitoba Data Services?
* (1550)
Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct.
Mrs. Carstairs: Thank you.
Mr. Martindale: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I have a letter from
Mr. Nick Atkinson, Executive Director, Opthalmic Dispensers of Manitoba. I think he was writing also on behalf of the
Opticians Association of Canada. He
refers to a meeting that he had with the minister and the deputy minister on
February 11. It has to do with social
allowance provisions which pay for optometrist costs. It seems that there is an agreement between
these two organizations to, I guess, standardize their rates and he points out
that this could save the province $250,000 a year.
I am wondering if the minister is familiar
with these two organizations and their proposal, and if the minister could tell
us if there has been any policy change in this area? Would it be helpful if you had the letter? No, you are familiar with it. Good.
Mr. Gilleshammer: I would confirm that this is an issue that is
before the department.
Mr. Martindale: I wonder if the minister could tell us if you
find this an attractive proposal since it says they could save the
Mr. Gilleshammer: This is an issue that is currently before
government.
Mr. Martindale: I am ready to pass this line.
Ms. Avis Gray
(Crescentwood): This section deals with finance and
administration, and the minister had said in his previous remarks the other day
about asking for suggestions about how to reduce, perhaps, expenditures in the
Department of Family Services. I am
wondering if the minister could tell us what suggestions came forth from his
department, his staff, through finance and admin, in regard to suggestions for
reducing expenditures. Which suggestions
came about that were not acted upon?
Mr. Gilleshammer: When you craft a budget and have these budget
deadlines, you gather information from all sources, some of it from within your
department, and other from the community and the private sector. In many cases there are ongoing discussions
that are taking place to consider ideas that come forward from those
sources. It is difficult to identify
them now as many of them are still in process.
Ms. Gray: When the minister says they are still in
process, surely there must have been some suggestions that came forth in the
crafting of the '92‑93 budget that were either found to be not workable
or felt that they were too complex to implement at this time. Were there any suggestions that were not
dealt with‑‑and I do not have any in mind; I am just asking the
question‑‑that were really not done for a variety of reasons?
I would be interested to know what kinds
of suggestions your department brings forward to you in regard to how to
proceed with any given budget and what suggestions there are for changes.
Mr. Gilleshammer: I think it is fair to say that every
department takes the time to examine their initiatives and examine how they do
business, and major players in that, of course, are departmental staff. Sometimes there are suggestions to expend
additional dollars, and we have to weigh that against the total budget. Other times there are suggestions of how we
can spend less money and make major program cuts. Government, in making those deliberations,
has to balance all of these things against the service that is absolutely
required.
So some of the things that have come
forward perhaps need further clarification and further work. Some of those discussions are ongoing.
Ms. Gray: I can see I am not going to get any specifics,
and I will not pursue it just in the interest of time, but just to clarify,
with this particular section, I would imagine this section controls monies that
go to regions, that go to directorates, that go to the Child and Family
Services directorate, and then go to the agencies.
I would wonder if the minister could tell
me when the amount of money is decided upon and apportioned out to the various
divisions, or the various directorates and regions, et cetera, once they are
aware of what that amount of money is, do they then have the authority within
their own branches to actually proceed and spend that money, providing, of
course, there are not any new regulations that might come forth in the middle
of the year such as a freeze on hiring or something like that? Do they have the authority once they are
given their budget to actually use those dollars?
Mr. Gilleshammer: If I could rephrase what the member, who has
some valuable experience in government, is asking: Do the managers have the flexibility within
their branch to take dollars committed for one program and move it over to
another program? I guess the answer to
that is, in a very limited way.
Ms. Gray: Even more specific than that, rather than
moving dollars from one program to another, my question would be, when a
directorate, as an example, is given a specific salary line, they know how many
dollars they have to spend on salaries over a given year, can they then manage
within those salary dollars, i.e., not spend more than what is indicated? Are they able to proceed and make decisions
based on the dollars that they have available to them in that salary line?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I know the member has said to me in the past
that there are many excellent, excellent servants of the government there with
ideas. Sometimes these ideas do not bubble
up to the top as quickly as she would like, but there is a limited amount of
flexibility pursuant to regulations and directions that may be given by
government.
There are times when some of those
decisions can be revisited. I would say
in our department we do that from time to time.
If it appears there is a better way of expending those dollars within
that budget line in just a little different fashion, we have some opportunities
to discuss that.
Ms. Gray: I will be more specific. Let us say, hypothetically, someone runs one
of the directorates, program and planning.
They have three administrative secretaries. Two secretaries decide to go on maternity
leave. They have the salary dollars to
replace because those people are on maternity leave. Do they have the authority to go ahead and do
that providing they are in within the regulations of Human Resources?
* (1600)
Mr. Gilleshammer: These hypothetical questions are, of course,
difficult to answer because they are hypothetical, but again, dependent on
departmental needs‑‑and there have been times when a hiring freeze
has existed. Of course, then it becomes
more difficult in that you have to make a case for that.
I think it is fair to say that within the budgetary
parameters that we have, when people leave the workplace for whatever reason,
if they need to be replaced, then they are.
If the member is saying that maybe there is a better way of spending
those dollars and hiring someone somewhere else, there is a limited ability to
do that.
Ms. Gray: If there is a vacancy, whether it is for
maternity leave or someone resigns, and you want to replace that person, and it
is the middle of the fiscal year, does the staffing submission have to be
prepared? Who has the authority? My question is, who has the authority? Can it be done at that level when there is
already dollars in the Salaries line, or does it have to go all the way up the
line to the minister and/or to Treasury Board?
Mr. Gilleshammer: There are a variety of answers to that. I think, as the member knows, if there is in
fact a hiring freeze in place, which happens from time to time, then it
requires the authority by the direction of more people. If there is not a hiring freeze, depending on
the position, it can be dealt with at various levels.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, all I want to know
is, is it general procedure, regardless of hiring freezes‑‑let us
assume they are not in place at whatever time‑‑that staffing
submissions, do they have to go to Treasury Board for approval even if it is
someone who is at an AY2 level making $18,000 a year?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Not necessarily.
Ms. Gray: Can the minister tell me, is that the norm or
is that the exception when he says, "not necessarily"?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, it depends on the case the member wants
to bring forward. In the hypothetical
case that she raised before, it depends on the position. Of course, with a hiring freeze in place then
it does require more authority. If the
question now is if there is no hiring freeze, then it depends on what latitude
the managers have within their hiring parameters.
Ms. Gray: Can the minister tell me what latitudes do they
have within their hiring parameters?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in almost all of the
cases, it does come up to the deputy minister level so that we can see if the
staff year could be reassigned to another area of the department.
Ms. Gray: Does the staffing submission go beyond the
deputy minister level, and if so, where?
Mr. Gilleshammer: It would go to the minister.
Ms. Gray: Does it go beyond the minister?
Mr. Gilleshammer: No.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, so the minister is
telling me that by and large, even in the normal routine, day‑to‑day
decisions that occur in the department, where there are salary lines and
various managers and directorates that know how much money they have, and given
there is a hiring freeze, still there has to be paperwork that is done that
goes all the way up to the various levels to the minister for approval? Is that correct?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, to see that the needs across the entire
department are met, that is correct.
Ms. Gray: Does the minister believe that that is really a
good way to do things, that that is an efficient way to do things in regard to
having those decisions? Is it common
practice in the Department of Family Services that all decisions are made at
the top as opposed to delegating those decisions to management?
Mr. Gilleshammer: A lot of the staffing that the member is
referring to does come up through the system so that senior managers and, in
some cases, the minister can look at what the priorities within the department
really are. There are many times when
managers want to make a case for additional staff for programming. It is not very often that the opposite occurs
where people come forward and say, you know, we can do with less staff in this
area, but in order to be able to address some of the real needs that come to
the department, it is important that from time to time staff can be reassigned
to address those concerns.
Ms. Gray: The minister might be surprised that if
managers were allowed to have the authority to make the decisions that they get
paid to make, they might come up with suggestions and ideas on giving up staff
years.
My further question to the minister is, do
the assistant deputy ministers and people at that particular level not meet
with their managers on a regular basis to look at what the managers' goals and
objectives are for the year? Do they not
get an understanding of sort of the priorities of the department through those
mechanisms, as opposed to dealing with it through staffing submission?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, that is correct that senior management
do meet on a regular basis to review the needs of the department, and I think
the member, who has a passing knowledge of Family Services, I believe, would
recognize the changing dynamics out there, where information is shared by senior
staff members and that staffing can take place accordingly. But I recognize the member is bringing up a
valid point that managers sometimes, when they have more freedom to manage, are
able to find those solutions, and I think as a management team the team has to
find a way in which those ideas are brought forward.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, could the minister
tell me, getting onto a different subject, where is the space plan at right now
for Winnipeg Region, Family Services and Health?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The space plan that the member is asking
about is still before a number of departments, and as the member is aware, the
Department of Government Services is involved in allocation of space. The issue is still within our department and
two others.
Ms. Gray: Does the minister have an idea as to when
there might be a resolution of that particular project, particularly in light
of the fact‑‑I do not think he has any staff who are outside of the
catchment area of St. Boniface in particular, but certainly the Department of
Health does, so there is probably less accessibility of mental health staff and
Family Services staff to work with each other because some are downtown and
some are within the community.
Mr. Gilleshammer: I would hope that we would be able to deal
with that in the coming months, especially after we finish Estimates and have
more time to liaise with other departments involved, but probably it will be
longer than we want.
* (1610)
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 1.(e) Management Services (1) Salaries
$1,885,700‑‑passed; (b) Other Expenditures $547,700‑‑pass.
1.(e)(2) Program Budgeting and Reporting
(a) Salaries $336,700.
Mr. Martindale: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it is my
understanding that from time to time people on social assistance find
themselves in emergency situations and approach the department for, I guess, a
duplicate issue is the best way of describing it, and that some people find
themselves in that circumstance because they have spent their money on various
kinds of gambling, for example, bingo, VLTs and lotteries of various
kinds. I am wondering if the minister
can tell us if this is a very serious problem, if there are very many people
who are coming forward for assistance because of this problem, and how do the
staff respond. Do people get a duplicate
issue or how are they dealt with?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The whole issue of emergency situations, of
course, is something that the department has to take very seriously because you
want to be able to have the resources to deal with the true emergency
situations. As a result, these are
looked at on a case‑by‑case basis, and when there in fact is a
genuine emergency, then the department will respond in a positive way to that.
I know we got into this discussion once
before, whether government should flow the money to the recipient or manage the
money for them, and by and large the philosophy is to flow the money and allow
the recipient to manage it as they see fit. There are cases where we do flow
the rent directly. There are cases where
resources are flowed every two weeks to help manage it.
I think, in terms of dealing with the
majority of our clients, we do flow it on a monthly basis and they make their
own decisions. The liquid assets
standard that we raised last year allows the ability for a number of those
clients, particularly with their exempted income, to retain more of that.
Specifically, you asked if there are
people who are involved in bingo games who are spending their resources there
and as a result asking for emergency money.
I do not think that we have heard anything to this effect in our
district offices. However, informally
and unofficially, it is something that I have heard about in the community.
Mr. Martindale: So the minister is not aware of particular
cases where people, say, have a gambling addiction and have spent their money
on gambling and then had to ask for a duplicate issue. I think this is an emerging issue in our
society, and I am told that people have come forward for duplicate issue for
this reason.
Mr. Gilleshammer: I think the member can appreciate that many
of the more active and more ambulatory cases are on the municipal caseload,
where that issue may well be brought back to the municipality. I have not heard from either UMM or MAUM or
any of the major cities that that is an issue, but it is something we can check
with them to see if in fact, at their level of assistance, it is an emerging
issue.
Mr. Martindale: Would the minister also check with the
directors of the Income Security branches to see if it is a problem in the
provincial system? Secondly, if it is a
problem, would he talk to the minister responsible for the Manitoba Lotteries
Foundation and recommend that there be a program to help recipients who are
addicted to gambling?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Perhaps the member was not listening to my
previous answer. I have indicated that
we have checked with our district office directors, and that has not been an
identified issue.
Mr. Martindale: Since one of the expected results is to
identify emerging financial and program management issues, could the minister
tell us why so little notice was given to child care centres, family daycare
centres, before‑ and after‑school programs, nursery schools, et
cetera, about the changes in the rates, basically the increase in fees, because
what those centres are telling me is that they were not given adequate notice,
and the result was that they had to redo their budgets, which was very time
consuming. They were very distressed at
the lack of notice and the amount of work that this required.
Could the minister tell us why there was
such a very short notification period?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The length of notice, I suppose, might be too
short or too long, and it may be in the mind of the member. We did write to all of our groups last fall
and indicated that there was a strong possibility that government would not be
able to maintain the levels of funding that they had the previous year and that
they should not budget on the assumption that they were going to get more but
that they might get less.
Further to that, because the budget was
going to be delayed somewhat, we made an additional effort to get those funding
announcements out early, with the hope of starting the Estimates process
early. As a result, instead of waiting
for the budget to come down, we in fact as soon as I was able to table that
information in the House for the honourable members, communicated with the
stakeholders to let them know what our funding decisions would be.
So I think every year there are decisions
around the budget, that it is very difficult to communicate on a timely fashion
to everybody, but we made a real effort to notify them in the fall. I have met
with the daycare community specifically a week before or two weeks before the
budget came down and indicated to them verbally that we had some tough
decisions coming and that we would communicate that to them as soon as we
could. So, on the day that I tabled the
information and my Estimates in the House, we almost simultaneously tried to
talk to all of the people who were being affected by our budget so that they
would know at the first possible moment.
Some governments are already into this
particular budget year and have not tabled a budget yet, so it is not a
situation that exclusive to
* (1620)
Mr. Martindale: I can assure the minister that this is not an
imagined problem in the head of this member, as he alleges. There is a very
real problem that is being faced by child care centre directors and others who
are telling us that they went to great lengths to have to redo their
budgets. I also think there is a
difference between notifying people last fall about a possible change and actually
having to redo budgets this spring. I think there is a difference between
telling people two weeks in advance that the government has to make tough
decisions and getting the actual notice and having to redo all their budget
calculations.
I am wondering if this is a problem every
year or whether it was only this year because of increases in fees, and if it
can be done differently next year.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am not for a moment
taking lightly the very difficult job of budgeting that groups have to do,
particularly when they have volunteer boards and where they have to come
together with their directors in many cases to plan on expenditures. Similarly with the school divisions, that the
Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey) does announce school division funding by a
certain date, and recognize that any group that relies on government for
funding has to wait on an annual basis.
The only solution I could see to that is
if we went to multiyear budgets, but with such little knowledge of what
government revenue would be from year to year with changes in funding that move
from the federal to the provincial level, with the changes in tax income, it is
very difficult. I suspect that problem
is always going to be there and always has been there, that you cannot
guarantee your grant level from one year to the next.
I know in many departments those decisions
are anxiously awaited, and then the budgeting process goes from there. School boards, hospital boards, daycare
boards know they cannot finalize a budget until they get the final word on
their grants, and then they have to look at whatever surpluses they have and
whatever other money they can access that becomes part of those difficult
decisions.
Mr. Martindale: Did the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) not
promise multiyear budgeting, and whatever happened to that promise?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, certainly governments do plan for many
years ahead of time, but when you come down to the fine decisions that are made
within that budget, you have to be able to determine your income for that
particular year and your expenditures.
Now, there are many ways of dealing with
that, and in recent meetings I have had with my colleagues from Saskatchewan
and British Columbia, one of the ways they did that was to increase the sales
tax and bring in many hundreds of millions of dollars from the sale of goods
and services in some cases. Those are
the decisions that you weigh and, of course, we have decided not to raise the
sales tax, not to raise personal taxes, not to raise the corporate tax. Governments have those decisions to make, but
all governments make those on an annual basis.
Mr. Martindale: Pass.
Mrs. Carstairs: I just have one question, and that is, from
the detailed Estimates book, it looks as if this particular function is
primarily internal. What does an
internal department like this spend $20,000 worth on communications?
Mr. Gilleshammer: That is for the printing of our Estimates
book, our Supplementary Estimates and also the annual report.
Mrs. Carstairs: Well, considering we now only do Detailed
Estimates books of‑‑what?‑‑maybe ten maximum, since
there are only four distributed in the Legislature, two to each side of the
House in opposition, how many copies of this do we distribute?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The actual volume has not changed that much.
Of our annual report, we publish about 500 of those to go to all of the
municipalities, all of the groups that we fund. Similarly, with our budget
supplement, we have a demand from a number of groups, and I think it is fair to
say that it probably runs into almost 100 people that we distribute that report
to.
But the member's point is well taken. If there is a savings there that we can make
in future years by printing fewer annual reports, fewer budget supplements, and
if that demand decreases, there is a potential to reduce that amount.
Mrs. Carstairs: I just like to make the comment that I think
it is pretty expensive. Most of that can
be done, I am sure, by word processing today, so you are looking at a printing
cost‑‑by my estimate, you are spending $3.50 a copy. That is about the cost of a hard‑covered
printed book of some 80,000 words. I am
aware of those printing costs right now, so I think that is amazing those are
the only two things it goes for.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, it is mainly printing costs, but there
are also some postage and telephone costs involved. Again, the member's point is well taken.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 1.(e)(2)(a) Salaries $336,700‑‑pass;
(b) Other Expenditures $80,600‑‑pass.
1.(e)(3) Human Resources Services (a)
Salaries $805,400.
Mr. Martindale: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I wonder if the
minister could tell us what the affirmative action goals are of his department.
(Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy
Chairperson, in the Chair)
*
(1630)
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, the
departmental affirmative action planning process has set objectives in six
major areas, and the major objectives are in recruitment and selection, in
development initiatives, in education, awareness, training and communication,
in program and policy, in integration with the management process and reporting
and monitoring results.
Having said that, I can give you the
number of people employed under the various categories for the previous year
and the year before that. In 1991‑92,
the total employment complement was 1,893.
Of that, 68.41 percent were female; 5.76 percent were native; 4.01
percent were physically disabled; and 2.27 percent were visible minority.
In the most recent fiscal year, the total
number of employed was reduced to 1,835; 68.61 percent were female; 6.43
percent were native; 4.25 percent physically disabled; and 2.18 percent visible
minority.
Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell us if there is also an
affirmative action goal of putting more women in senior management? In many organizations, including government,
that is frequently a problem. Could the
minister tell us how he is doing in his department?
Mr. Gilleshammer: We are doing exceedingly well. The deputy minister of this department is
here at the table, Roxy Freedman. We also have an assistant deputy minister in
the room, Tannis Mindell, and we have many, many senior management people who
fall into that category.
Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell us how many positions
would be identified as senior management and how many of those would be women?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, do you want a
real detail on this?
Mr. Martindale: I think I asked for the number of positions
and the percentage filled by women.
Mr. Gilleshammer: We have one deputy minister in the department
and she is female. We have three ADMs,
and one of them is a female. In
Management Services executive directors, we have six, and one of them is
female. Central Directorate, total of four,
and two of those are female.
Professional officers, this is a number of directors, there are six, and
three of them are female. Going through
to the bottom line of the total employed, there would be some 55 and 19 of
those are female
Mr. Martindale: Is there an affirmative action program to try
and increase the number of women in senior management positions?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes.
Mr. Martindale: Is the minister and his department making
progress?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes.
Mr. Martindale: Since the Estimates speaks of affirmative
action goals, what is the goal for women in senior management positions?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, the goal is that we achieve a 50
percent level there, looking at the intermediate to long‑term situation.
Mr. Martindale: I would like to go back to some of the other
categories. How do each of these
categories compare with the percentage of people and the population of
Mr. Gilleshammer: The provincial target, I am told, for women
is 50 percent, for natives 10 percent, for visible minorities 7 percent, and
for the disabled around 6 or 7 percent.
So in some cases we exceed that, and in other cases, we still have some
room to go there.
Mr. Martindale: Well, it looks like the minister's department
is exceeding it in only one case; that is women at 68.41 percent. You have
quite a ways to go in some of the others particularly visible minorities. Could the minister tell us how you are
working on those goals? Is it done, say,
by attrition when people retire or resign and they are being replaced, or how
do you go about achieving these goals?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, there are civil service processes which
we follow, and on the bulletins, there are times when that expectation or that
particular agenda is listed on there. I
think the member can appreciate that you cannot simply move there without
taking into consideration that you want to be fair to everybody, that there is
a process when applications are received, and that you make every attempt to
move in that direction. I think within
this department you will see that our numbers are moving in the right
direction, but you have to balance off the number of capable people that apply
for these positions, and the board that sits in on that makes those
determinations.
(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)
We attempt to develop contacts with outreach
agencies offering employment and referral services for the aboriginal, disabled
and visible minority target groups. We
provide work experience opportunities for external target group members with
the possibility of eventually hiring into the department's workforce. We have recently been working with Sturgeon
Creek and some of the clients that they have at their particular training
facility. The employees of the department
attend affirmative action awareness and training offerings. So there are initiatives underway, but there
always is that balance that you have to have in considering people for
employment.
* (1640)
Mr. Martindale: I would like to ask about one particular
area, and that is Income Security offices and the hiring of aboriginal people. It seems to me that since, particularly in
the city of
I would like to ask the minister if, in
this area, you have met your goal or exceeded the goal or are still working on
it.
Mr. Gilleshammer: With aboriginal hirings, we are still short
of the government targets. But you have
to appreciate the parameters that the civil service hiring brings to the
process, where I guess it sort of works like a union, and you have seniority
rights and bumping that takes place. It
is not quite as simple and straightforward as sometimes you would like in
meeting those targets, but we are aware of the targets that the government has
set and are working towards them.
Mr. Martindale: I am glad to see that the minister supports
affirmative action and that he and his department are working on achieving
these goals, since I know that not everybody in the cabinet that he is a part
of supports this. So I would commend the
minister for supporting affirmative action and working on achieving it.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I know, given this member's background
and training, he would not want to leave anything on the record that is not
absolutely true. I would say that my
colleagues and I are all committed to those targets and work towards that. I would offer him the opportunity to withdraw
that.
Mr. Martindale: I have had discussions with the minister's
colleagues, so I will not withdraw that because I know that not 100 percent of
his cabinet agrees with him.
I have one final question, and that has to
do with education and training and affirmative action. I assume that this is education and training
and cross‑cultural awareness, but I would like to ask the minister for
some specifics, if he can tell us what kind of education and training goes on
with staff in his department, particularly with regard to affirmative action
and cross‑cultural awareness?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we access that
education and training through the civil service program that offers the
training in affirmative action and cross‑cultural awareness.
But I again have to go back to the
member's previous comments. I would
caution him from reading into his conclusions some of the private conversations
he has had with members on affirmative hiring, that we are committed to the
targets that have been set and are working towards those goals.
I can tell you we talked about boards and
commissions earlier, and the member's colleague who was here at the time who
was active in working on boards and commissions, we have far surpassed the
whole concept of affirmative action in the nominating of people to boards and
commissions.
Similarly we have exceeded the record of
the previous government in putting some of the groups referenced into major
positions within government. Again, I
would offer him the chance to retract that because I think I have not heard
colleagues say that. I believe that we
are all committed to that. If the member
in some private conversation believes he heard something else, he maybe should
go back and check that out.
Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if we are going to
have affirmative action as a viable policy, then nowhere should it better be
reflected than in this particular section.
Can the minister tell us how many of the
managerial, professional and technical people of this particular section are
women? There is one managerial, and
there are nine technical people. Of that
10, how many are women?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Five out of the 10 staff in this area are
women.
Mrs. Carstairs: Can the minister tell me, again in another
internal department and one‑‑and by the way, I should say that the
cost of these documents according to the figures are $33.35 each, if you take
600 copies by $20,000, but that is just interesting. What would this department spend $16,000 on
in communications?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Obviously the figures that the member is
calculating are not correct. We will
find you further information on that $20,000 that you asked about and give you
a more comprehensive breakdown.
In this particular area, all of the
advertising, all of the bulletins and the telephone costs are quite high. It would account for that figure.
Mrs. Carstairs: Is the minister saying then that the civil
service department does not pay the costs of the bulletins of civil service
positions?
Mr. Gilleshammer: They pay for the bulletins; we pay for the
newspaper advertisement.
Mrs. Carstairs: So if it is an internal position then,
obviously, there is no cost to this department, but if it is going to be hired
from outside of the civil service, there is a cost to this department. It that correct?
Mr. Gilleshammer: On the advertising portion of it, that is
correct.
* (1650)
Mrs. Carstairs: Can the minister tell us how many positions in
this department, and I just want a percentage figure, of new hirings would be
done from outside of the Civil Service Commission?
Mr. Gilleshammer: An estimate I am given is that 10 percent of
the hirings are from outside the civil service and 90 percent from within.
Mrs. Carstairs: Can the minister tell us what would be
included in Supplies and Services for the Human Resource branch?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The majority of that is costed back to rent,
and the rest would be normal office supplies.
Mrs. Carstairs: What kind of rent would this particular branch
be involved in?
Mr. Gilleshammer: These figures used to be lodged in Government
Services for office space. Now they are
lodged here within the department.
Mrs. Carstairs: So this would be the location of any
individuals who are not within the departmental office itself, and there is
alternative space for them that is not in government offices?
Mr. Gilleshammer: This line refers to all of the space that
Human Resource has. Some of it is within
government space, other of it is contracted from outside.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 1.(e)(3)(a) Salaries $805,400‑‑pass;
(b) Other Expenditures $138,900‑‑pass.
1.(e)(4) Information Systems (a) Salaries
$1,006,400.
Mr. Martindale: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would be interested
in asking some questions particularly about how Information Systems‑‑and
I presume that it is probably a euphemism for computers by and large‑‑are
used particularly in Income Security and particularly with regard to approvals
by staff for rental premises.
I know that when the City of Winnipeg was
running the CARUMP program, Core Area Residential Upgrading and Maintenance Program,
when staff were finding new accommodation for tenants who were forced to move
because of housing inspections, they were able to access City of Winnipeg
information in the health department and inspections branch in order to check
on whether there were outstanding work orders or health orders.
I would like to know if it is possible for
especially front‑line staff in Income Security offices to check on
whether or not premises that are going to be rented by social assistance
recipients have outstanding health orders.
For example, a place might be placarded insanitary, in which case no one
is allowed to live there, or other kinds of work orders requiring repairs.
The reason for my question is that I
believe a great many people are living in substandard accommodation, and we
know that many of those people are on provincial social assistance, and so
there is a very large amount of rent that is being paid to landlords in the
private rental market. I do not think
taxpayers would want this money to be going to substandard accommodation. I
think the money should be used to buy decent housing wherever possible.
So my question is, is it possible for
staff to find out if there are work orders or health orders against rented
properties?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am able to report to the member that we
have a system in place with our department, the City of
We do not have a listing for what the
member termed substandard housing.
Mr. Martindale: Are the staff able to access information
about premises that may have outstanding work orders against them?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes.
Mr. Martindale: Do the staff routinely make use of this
information, and if so, how?
Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct, they do.
Mr. Martindale: I would like to ask the minister if it makes
a difference. Do the staff turn down
certain addresses and refuse to pay the rent for those addresses?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, they do.
Mr. Martindale: I would like to ask if that is creating any
hardship for clients, or given that the vacancy rate is about 6 percent, if
there is still enough flexibility for people in the private rental market that
they can find accommodation within the rental allowance guidelines?
Mr. Gilleshammer: We have not had any problems with that.
Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell us if the Child Day
Care office procedures are computerized?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that there is a minimum level of
automation in that area.
Mr. Martindale: Could the minister expand on that answer,
please?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes.
It means that it is an area of our department that has not had
automation to the extent of a number of other areas of our department.
For instance, on the social allowances,
the SAMIN system is regarded as being one of the real quality systems that we
have. We have expended considerable dollars in the service information system
for child welfare. One of the areas
which I think needs to be addressed in coming years, in coming budgets for
automation, is child daycare.
Mr. Martindale: Is there a goal or a time line for achieving
computerization in child daycare?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, there is room for improvement, and we hope
to be able to do some of that this coming year.
Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell us what sort of
progress has been made in the area of Child and Family Services agencies, particularly,
the Winnipeg Child and Family Services agency, since in the past, the minister
has talked frequently about computerizing their operations and the improvements
that this will make, particularly in being able to track children from one area
of the city, or families from one area of the city to another?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I would be pleased to talk about that.
It may be easier to do that in another appropriation, but I could give you a
general update on it.
We have spent millions of dollars
designing a system which enables the line social workers to access immediate,
up‑to‑date, comprehensive information on clients that come into
care and families that are involved with the system. I think I mentioned it once before, but I
will mention it again, that not that many months ago, I visited the Child and
Family Services office in Portage la Prairie, the central Manitoba office, and
had a demonstration of this.
I understand we are running out of time,
and maybe we can get back into this when we come back this evening.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The time is now 5 p.m. and time for private
members' hour. I am interrupting the
proceedings of the committee. The
Committee of Supply will resume consideration at 8 p.m.
HIGHWAYS
AND TRANSPORTATION
Madam Chairperson
(Louise Dacquay): Will the Committee of Supply please come to
order. This section of the Committee of
Supply is dealing with the Estimates for the Department of Highways and
Transportation.
We are on item 3. Planning and Design and
Land Surveys. Would the minister's staff please enter the Chamber?
Item 3.(a) Planning and Design (1)
Salaries $1,993,000.
Mr. Daryl Reid
(Transcona): If the minister's staff is able to enter the
Chamber‑‑
Madam Chairperson: Yes, I have called for them, and it is my
understanding that they will be here momentarily. The minister said you could proceed with your
first question.
Mr. Reid: Okay, if we could just wait a few moments,
Madam Chairperson, and then I will ask the minister my first question.
Madam Chairperson: We are on item 3., page 89 of the Main
Estimates manual, Planning and Design and Land Surveys.
Mr. Reid: I cannot recall if I asked the minister this
question on Friday. If not, I will ask
it again and the minister can indicate to me if he has indicated the number of
permits and the value of the permits that were issued under Planning and
Design.
Hon. Albert Driedger
(Minister of Highways and Transportation): I had tried to clarify the process in
terms of issuing permits. First of all, on our PTH, provincial trunk highways,
any applications for access get made through the Highway Traffic Board. On the provincial roads, the PR system, the
applications go directly to the district who by and large then decide whether
it is justified or not and try to work something out for the people.
In terms of the details, there were other
questions that the member had asked me where I said that we will get more
detailed information and we will try and see whether we have some of that
today. If not, I had given the
indication that the information is going to be coming.
Because this is relatively detailed
information, I will see whether we have it available.
Mr. Reid: There was a significant amount of discussion,
at least for a short period of time last ear, when the minister through his
department had decided, or it has been past practice to remove certain portions
of the road network in the province from the provincial map.
Has the minister's department looked at or
had discussions with the various LGDs and municipalities throughout the
province to see if there is a way in which we can incorporate all of the road
systems on the current provincial map so that when tourists come to this
province or Manitobans travel that they will be aware of all of the roads that
are contained within the province of Manitoba so that they do not become
confused when they are travelling? Have
there been any discussions and is the reason why these roads are not included
basically one of legal concerns?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, I am pleased to give the
member the assurance that new maps are coming out and that we will be
addressing the roads that were removed as provincial responsibility in last
year's map because of the concern that was expressed, and we will be identifying
those roads on the new map when it comes out.
They will not be identified as provincial responsibility, but they will
be identified as roads.
So when the new map, in the final throes
of consultation in terms of developing a new map‑‑and I would
expect that within probably six weeks to two months maybe, hopefully sooner, we
will be having the new maps out, and they will be having that road system on
there.
Mr. Reid: Is there some concern, or has the concern
regarding legal responsibility for the roads shown on the map been discussed or
determined within the minister's department in any discussions they might have
had with LGDs or municipalities?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, we have not approached it
from the legal perspective. What we have
done, based on the requests that came forward at the time when we had deleted
those roads from the provincial map‑‑and it is a provincial map not
a municipal map‑‑but through various discussions with the
municipalities involved and other people who raise the concern, I repeat, we
have identified those roads that used to be PRs in the province on the new map
as municipal roads.
However, we have to be sensitive with that
because we are just basically identifying those roads that used to be
provincial responsibility. It will show
on the map as municipal roads‑‑other roads. So it will show on the map. Now we have the PTH system, the PR system,
and there will be other roads which will basically identify‑‑a
fainter black line will identify other roads which are not the responsibility
of the provincial government.
Madam Chairperson: Item 3.(a) Planning and Design (1) Salaries
$1,993,000‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $717,000‑‑pass.
3.(b) Land Surveys.
Mr. Reid: Under the Activity Identification: "Declarations and Abandonment Orders of
Provincial Trunk Highways and Provincial Roads," has the department or the
minister effected any plans in the past year for any abandonment orders, and
are any abandonment orders or declarations for such in the works for the current
year?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, this is an ongoing thing
that comes forward from our survey people and from land acquisition people,
where through changes of the road system, changing alignments, that invariably
we have areas where we want to close off or return some portion of that
land. I dare say that I probably sign
anywhere from up to a dozen a month sometimes on these things, where we have
certain portions where we close off or change certain things, so that is a very
normal process that we go through.
Mr. Reid: It shows that there are seven positions
eliminated due to program reduction. I
take it that is because the level of projects is down for this year. Can the minister indicate if that is the case
and, if so, these seven positions, were they under contract or are they full‑time
staff to the department? If so, what
happened to those people?
* (1430)
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, earlier on I made the
statement that there was reduction in my department and that there were very few
places where‑‑actually it was mostly vacant positions that were
affected. However, in our survey crew,
these were actually live bodies who were affected in terms of reductions. I might add that these individuals have all
been basically placed within the department and other positions.
The reason for the seven staffperson
reduction under Land Surveys is that the nature of the work has changed to some
degree where we have more sophisticated equipment, and we do not need as many
crews. So we have basically cut back to
three crews because, I repeat, the nature of the work has changed in such a way
that we have more sophisticated equipment.
We do not need that many crews out there. We still feel that we can adequately serve
our requirements.
Mr. Reid: I may not understand then the full duties and
functions of the survey crews. I have
had the opportunity to use transit equipment over past years. What type of technological changes there that
would have come forward that would have meant the elimination of seven
positions? I am not sure what technology
changes would, in surveying, which is basically a labour‑intensive type
of duty, indicate that there would be a change in employment levels of that
magnitude.
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, I have to apologize for
continually interrupting the advice being given by your Clerk.
To the member on his question, it is not
just equipment. It is the nature of the
work and the fact that we do not have the need for that many at the present
time. The system of the work has
changed. We do more overlays. We basically have the required right of way
where we do repaving, so basically our crews were more required when we did a
lot of new construction.
In cases where we do reconstruction now,
even that has changed to some degree where we do not need as many people doing
that because we already have the system in place. If we do shoulder widening, for example, it
is not the kind of requirement as when we used to build a new road. Our system is, by and large, in place.
Mr. Reid: I do not mean to belabour the point, but when
I have seen road maintenance or construction projects ongoing, I have always
seen survey stakes. So obviously there
have been surveyors there who are doing the work. I do not see how, even with the maintenance
program, unless it has to do with the $10 million decrease in the overall
capital budget, which would mean that we had no necessity for surveyors as a
result of that reduction in the capital program.
That would be the only thing that I could
see. I mean, maintenance programs still
require survey for their construction crews to function as a guideline. I do not see how that change‑‑I
do not understand how the minister's statements wash with the normal procedure.
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, maybe to further try to
clarify it, we have two sets of surveys that are undertaken. One is the legal survey to establish the
property lines, and then we have our engineering surveys which basically are on
the site when construction takes place.
Those are under the construction component, the capital program in terms
of our construction. This is basically the legal survey in terms of
establishing the property lines and requirements of property.
There are two components to the
survey. This is only one component here.
Mr. Reid: If I understand the minister correctly, then
the construction survey is undertaken by the construction crews themselves
under employ of the construction company, not under the minister's department
then.
Mr. Driedger: No, that is not the case. What happens is that we have the group here
that we have identified do our legal surveys in terms of establishing the
property line requirements that we need.
Then we end up having survey crews that basically during the course of
construction under my department, paid by my department under the capital
program that do‑‑you know when the contractor is working to see
whether we have enough A base, and they do the design as well. These just do the legal survey lines, and we
do not have as much requirement for that.
In my mind, it is very clear, but I am
having trouble maybe explaining exactly what is happening. When we do the construction end of it, we
have a different type of crew that basically works under construction.
Mr. Reid: Madam Chairperson, maybe I am not phrasing my
questions correctly for the minister to draw out the information that I am
looking for. If that is the case, I am
sorry for that, for not explaining clearly enough. I was just trying to get an understanding of
the function there and whether or not, because of the reduction in the
expenditures, through the maintenance and the capital programs, if that is the
reason why there has been a decrease in the surveys.
If it is only for legal, most of the
projects start off with a legal definition and legal boundaries that are
attached, and if we are seeing a reduction in the maintenance and the capital
programs, then I guess it would stand to reason that there would be a decreased
need to have the legal surveyors go out and do their job.
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, first of all, there is not
a decrease in my capital. We have an
increase in my capital program to the point where this is the biggest capital
program that this province has ever seen, regardless of whether it is cost‑shared
by the province of not, but it is the biggest program ever. So that is not the case; that is not why
there is a reduction.
I might also add, to the member, that over
the years‑‑maybe I should just back up a step and say that when we
get into road construction, for example, and we prioritize a project, the first
thing that we do is do a survey and design.
Once it is prioritized, that is the first step that takes place. Our surveyors go out and see exactly the type
of road that we want to construct and do the legal survey in terms of how much
land we need, if we need any, and they also do the design under this,
right? No, these do not. [interjection]
Maybe to further clarify it, what these
crews under this jurisdiction do, they basically establish‑‑once
the design is done to some degree, they do the survey as to how much property
we need from each individual if we have to buy property or expropriate,
whatever the case may be. So that is
what they do. Establish alliance and say, from this individual we need two and
a half acres, from the next one it is 1.3, depending on how much frontage they
have. That is the responsibility of this
crew.
Madam Chairperson: Item 3. Planning and Design and Land Surveys
(b) Land Surveys (1) Salaries $864,000‑‑pass; (2) Other
Expenditures $246,300‑‑(pass); (3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations
($1,110,300)‑‑pass.
Resolution 15.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty
a sum not exceeding $2,710,000 for Highways and Transportation, Planning and
Design and Land Surveys for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1994‑‑pass.
Item 4. Engineering and Technical Services
(a) Management Services (1) Salaries $143,000.
Mr. Reid: The Activity Identification states that this department
monitors the effectiveness of services and facilities. Can the minister indicate how effective have
been the services in the facilities?
* (1440)
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, just great. The member opened the door for that one. Basically, the description is there and it,
if the member reads,
"Provides management direction for the
functional branches of the Division.
Provides administrative support to Branch
Managers.
Monitors effectiveness of services and
facilities within the jurisdiction of
the Division."
What we expect from that is: "Effective delivery of Divisional
services and programs in accordance with Government and Department policies and
objectives."
I do not know how further I can explain
the effectiveness of the department.
My apologies, I would like to introduce
John Hosang, who is the individual in charge of this department here.
Madam Chairperson: Item 4.(a) Management Services, (1) Salaries
$143,000‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $30,500‑‑pass.
4.(b) Mechanical Equipment Services.
Mr. Reid: I know the minister has said this over several
occasions on the last two sittings on Estimates about the change‑‑he
is going to provide some information for us with respect to the changes in
staffing levels.
Will that description or that information
the minister is going to provide give us an indication here of changes that we
are seeing in the staffing years from 238 down to 230? Obviously, eight
positions were eliminated in the maintenance program. Can he give me an indication why the changes
in those eight positions? Are we doing
less maintenance?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, I have a sheet here that I
am prepared to give to the two critics which outline what has taken place‑‑I
am prepared to table that‑‑where it shows exactly the amount of
total staff years that have been eliminated in the '93‑94 Estimate
process. I have one for each critic.
Just further to that, if I could maybe
explain the reduction of the eight positions in the maintenance program. By and large, from the time that we turned
back the 2,000 kilometres to the municipalities, we have been revising our
maintenance beats, et cetera. There has
been a downturn on the requirements in terms of equipment as well as maintenance
personnel operators. This is still the
ongoing changes from the time that we implemented the turn back of the 2,000
kilometres to the municipalities.
At that time, it was expected that we
would be reducing people and reducing our maintenance program. That is why we paid the money upfront there
initially, half the first year, half last year.
It has just been completed. These
are the ongoing changes in terms of as we revise and revisit our system of
operations and our beats that we do in terms of maintenance.
Mr. Reid: I am not sure what the minister meant when he
said half this year and half next year.
Can he elaborate on that, please?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, going back‑‑and
I think we have covered this virtually for two years now‑‑when we
turned back the 2,000 kilometres to municipalities, we, at that time, offered
compensation based on the quality of road that we turned back so and so much,
and that was paid out over two years.
The last payment was made in the last fiscal year. So that is what I meant by paying out over
two payments, the compensation for the term backup roads.
In terms of the elimination of positions,
since that time, we have been revisiting whether we can provide maintenance as
capably as before, more efficiently. We
actually have municipalities, since the time we turned back to two thousand
clicks, some of them have expressed interest in terms of maintenance and
snowplowing for us.
We are making provision for that because
in some cases where we have turned back road they maybe required another half a
machine or something like that, work for half a machine. This whole process has been taking
place. In some cases we have reduced the
beat. We use the equipment from
municipalities. We lease it from them or
rent from them. In other cases we have
adjusted our maintenance program in such a way that we have the most efficient
method of operation through that. That
is what has happened here.
Mr. Reid: Can the minister explain: Does his department do the purchases of
either specialized equipment or standard equipment as part of the maintenance
equipment function? Does his department
do the purchases of that equipment, or does that come under the Government
Services?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, we indicate to Government
Services what our requirements are in terms of equipment, and then Government
Services does the tendering process on behalf of the Department of Highways and
Transportation.
Mr. Reid: Does the minister have any historical data or
statistics on the equipment purchases that we have put forward from his
department versus what we are putting forward or anticipate putting forward for
this year?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, I do not have that precise
information comparatively, but I could maybe give the member some indication
that is part of the budgetary process.
There is more pressure on us all the time
in terms of how much equipment we replace.
Our equipment, by and large, is getting older every year, and actually
is costing us more to keep it in operation through our garages, et cetera. It is a matter of discussion with my
colleagues on Treasury Board in terms of trying to hit certain objectives and
targets. We have reduced in the highway
maintenance equipment replacement by almost a million and a half this year.
I have grave concern with that. This is an issue that in discussion with my
staff I have said that we have to build our case a little stronger so that we
can try to get better replacement or more replacement within the department. I repeat again, our equipment is getting
older. As it gets older, it costs us
more to keep it operating, so that is an internal matter that we have in terms
of trying to sell our case.
Mr. Reid: That was leading to my next question. The minister indicated that there was a
reduction in the Supplies and Services for the maintenance equipment. I think it is close to half a million
dollars. Are we not, by postponing the
decisions to replace portions of our fleet where necessary, robbing from Peter
to pay Paul? In essence, if we would
normally replace equipment now, as difficult as it may be, will we be paying
the price somewhere down the road by having to replace a larger number of the
pieces of equipment that may ultimately fail and have to be replaced?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, invariably that is what it
is going to amount to that, if we keep on the trend that we have been on the
last few years in terms of reducing our capital for replacement equipment,
ultimately we will pay the price. That
is the argument that I put forward, that staff put forward to me, and I have
relayed that information to Treasury Board.
Those are some of the decisions that we face as you move through this
process. So I am hopeful that, as things
change, ultimately we have to address this again and bring it back onto this
level that we would want to be.
The same thing applies in terms of other
areas within the department. Our
maintenance‑‑as I talked before, we will not do the kind of
roadside mowing. We will not do the kind
of calcium application. All these things
are ultimately things that are going to come back and will have to be dealt
with. So those are things that we
agonized over in the decision making as to how we achieve certain targets and
try and still provide the kind of service, and still have equipment operating
properly. But I think, if this trend
continues and we do not level off and start getting it back, in my view,
ultimately, it is probably going to be more costly to operate that way than we
do right now if we keep this up. It is
my hope that we can reverse this trend somewhere down the line.
* (1450)
Mr. Reid: I am just worried here, Madam Chairperson,
maybe a little tongue in cheek here, too, that when I take over from the
minister I will have to replace all of the decrepit and decaying pieces of
equipment that he will have left the department that is falling down around him
and create some problems for others in the future. It is probably one of the reasons why we ask
these questions because we want to see where the department is headed for the
future as well as what they are doing currently. I know the minister wants to respond to this.
Mr. Driedger: Let me just‑‑I want to give the
member the assurance that heaven forbid it should ever come to that that he should
be responsible for the department, but by the time that happens, I want to
assure him that the department is going to be in great shape because I cannot
foresee this happening for a long time yet.
Mr. Reid: I am not sure if I‑‑maybe I neglected
to ask the minister if he can give me an indication‑‑he may not
have the information here, but if he has, in the near future, the opportunity
to bring information back with respect to the number of pieces of equipment we
would look at changing now or to upgrading our equipment for his department
under Maintenance Services.
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, because we replace it as we
go along, we have an allocated budget and then depending on what kind of
breakdowns we have, what happens to some of this equipment, I do not whether we
can‑‑I would not be able to give him the information for what we
project to do. We have a pot and then
as, let us say our trucks break down or motor graders go, the decisions get
made as to whether we should replace or not.
I do not know whether we‑‑hang on half a second.
I am going to try and see whether we can
get a list. We have a blueprint of what
we want to replace in the coming year, and I can try and get the information of
what we replaced last year just to at least give a snapshot to the member of
what is happening.
Madam Chairperson: 4.(b) Mechanical Equipment Services (1)
Salaries $7,267,200.
Mr. Paul Edwards (St.
James): Madam Chairperson, I notice from the handout,
staff years eliminated, that this ties with Traffic Engineering or at least is
way up there in that eight salaries were eliminated, one in
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, the positions that we are
referring to in the eight positions eliminated, one is a machinist in
Mr. Edwards: Madam Chairperson, I am sorry, some of the
positions were vacant? How long had they
been vacant, and why had they not been filled?
Are they positions that the minister is saying the duties were redundant
or not needed and if so when did they stop being needed and why?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, I had tried to clarify
before to the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) the changes that have taken place
in the last few years since we turned back to 2,000 kilometres, that we have
been gradually revisiting our maintenance beats in terms of how after the turn
back to 2,000 kilometres we have had to keep adjusting in terms of how many
beats we basically have. That
reorganization has been taking place over a period of the last two years and is
still going on. I made reference to the fact that we have been hiring more,
where rural municipalities have shown a desire, we have hired more
municipalities to do some of our maintenance work as well as our snow
plowing. The vacant positions I made
reference to were part of that process as it evolves. Then we eliminated those that we did not
need.
Mr. Edwards: Madam Chairperson, a total of 48.41 positions
eliminated, eight in this branch of the department. Is the minister saying that there has been no
need to duplicate or replace those services by contracting out or is he saying
that in fact contracting out is taking place but to the municipalities? Is that
what he is saying?
Mr. Driedger: Only partly.
Our reorganization impacts this only partly. The other thing is, Madam Chairperson, that
where the districts used to provide these services it will now be done out of
our regional offices, the five that we have.
So there is shifting taking place in terms of how we have been doing our
maintenance and how we are going to be doing it now. Where we used to run 13 districts, I repeat
again, and they each had their maintenance crews and construction crews. As we regionalize now into the five regions,
this will be done out of that and at a different capacity. So there is a total ongoing reorganization.
We have not totally completed the
regionalization. The same thing will
probably be appearing next year, where there is going to maybe be in the minds
of the public some confusion but, as we move and realign our operations on a
regional basis, and part of the reason why we regionalized was to be more
efficient, this is part of that whole process.
I do not know whether I clarified myself
the way the member wanted me to.
Mr. Edwards: Sure, and the most efficient would be to just
have one region in the province. I mean
if you go from 13 to five you certainly can cut down on the bureaucracy for
each district and the number of people needed, but the distances are greater.
There is a balance between accessibility of machines and equipment to be fixed,
to be maintained and serviced and the cost of setting up various
administrations around the province.
Is the minister saying that the last five
years, with 13 divisions as opposed to five regions, we were functioning less
than efficiently, that by going to five we have increased efficiency so that we
can cut these positions, or is he saying, we are going to be doing less
maintenance work or more driving to get to the garages to do the maintenance
work?
He is giving a mixed message here. He is saying, on the one hand, we are trying
to become more efficient, and we can become more efficient so we do not need
these staff years. On the other hand, he
is saying, well, but we are going to be relying more on municipalities to do
their own work. Is he going to be
contracting out the work, giving it to someone else, or has the work
disappeared or was not there in the first place?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, I was trying to clarify for
both members basically that as the process of regionalization takes place this
effects the component and the reduction to some degree. It is not the total thing.
He makes reference to contracting out to
municipalities. We do that limitedly
only to those that have expressed interest because of a transference of roads
back to them where they had to buy additional equipment and expressed interest
and then doing some work for us.
We work with them on a co‑operative
basis in terms of seeing whether it fits into our plans, because we cannot have
a municipality doing, let us say, one stretch of road and then leaving another
stretch for us at the far end so that our operators would have to drive 20
miles to do a five‑mile stretch or something like that. We co‑ordinate the activities where the
municipalities express interest in doing it.
That is only one portion of the component. The other thing in terms of regionalization,
and I have repeated this many times already, is the fact that we are not
closing our regional offices, but we leave all our little shops that we have in
place, so there is no reduction in terms of district yards. We might have employees, and that is where
some of these come in, where we have a reduction in employees in some areas
because we have changed our maintenance beats.
I am trying to explain, Madam
Chairperson. I do not know whether I am
getting there.
Mr. Edwards: The people being lost are all technical experts,
a machinist, a machine operator and operators.
They are not paper pushers, they are people who worked on machines, I
assume, driving and maintaining and working on machines.
* (1500)
If you still have these shops in the 13
districts, are those trucks and machines going to have to be transported
further to the five regional offices to get the same work done? I see you shaking your head. Does that mean that you have the same
expertise as was previously the case in all of those smaller divisions?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, my best intention is trying
to clarify out of our shops that we had‑‑I am talking about our
machine shops‑‑that as we are adjusting this whole thing we have
more of the operators, for example greater operators, operating out of the
regional areas. Like it is
jurisdictional changes that we have here.
Again, what I am trying to tell the member
is that this has been a process that has been actually worked on for three
years since we started turning back the 2,000 clicks. So it is not just one component that we have
involved here. We have less roads that
we have to maintain. So as we are adjusting
our maintenance beats which we call them, where we have an operator who covers
so many kilometres of road, that we have taken and done, in some cases, have
hired out or had the municipality undertake some of the work. We have done our own adjustments to such a
degree that we think that we are running it more efficiently, and we still have
the same qualified technical people involved.
Mr. Edwards: So the main reason that you can do the same
job with less people is that now the municipalities have taken on more
roads. Is that correct?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, we transferred back 2,000
kilometres of roads to municipalities.
It is their responsibility. In
some cases where we did this, municipalities said they would not have to buy
additional equipment. It did not warrant
it for the amount of road that we turned back.
So they asked, well, if we buy a machine, for example, a motor grader,
can we do some work for you people so that they can justify the cost of a new
machine. In those cases, where certain
municipalities asked that, we have made provision for that. So that is all part of the process of
reorganizing how we do our maintenance on the roads, understanding that there
are 2,000 kilometres less that we have to maintain at the present time.
Mr. Edwards: When the maintenance of the roads went back
to the municipalities, do we compensate the municipalities for that or did the
municipalities take on the cost of that themselves?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, two years ago, a little
over two years ago, when we embarked on the transferring back of 2,000
kilometres to the municipalities, we offloaded onto the municipalities these
2,000 kilometres based on a fair apportionment that each municipality had to
take a percentage of the roads back. So
that process took place. Yes, we
offloaded on them.
They have the responsibility. It is not our road anymore. That is why I was
getting flack from the other critic that we removed those roads from our
provincial map. We will now be putting
some of these roads back on‑‑I explained that a little earlier‑‑but
not as provincial roads. They will be
just designated as other roads so it still shows the system as in place, but
they are municipal responsibilities.
Mr. Edwards: Sorry, maybe I missed this. The minister said that happened two years
ago.
Mr. Driedger: Yes, Madam Chairperson, this process,
agonizing process that has taken place, we initiated it two years ago and we
compensated them, a one‑time compensation paid out over two years. The final payment was made just at the end of
the fiscal year where we paid them the last installment of two installments for
transferring the roads back to them because we felt we wanted to be consistent
with what we always said, that the federal government, when they offload, there
should be some compensation up‑front.
We went through a long agonizing process with the UMM executive until we
finally came to an agreement.
I realize the member was not my critic at
that time when we went through all this in the past, but that was the process
basically that took place. That has
effected a lot of the things over a period of two or three years now in terms
of how we have been operating.
Mr. Edwards: The minister says negotiations with the UMM.
Obviously, the maintenance of these roads is ongoing and will not just be over
two years, it will be on a permanent basis.
I assume that is the understanding.
What was the annual cost in whatever
dollars for the year that had commenced?
What were the payments made to the municipalities in total? I am not asking for a breakdown. What were the two payments in total, and what
was the annual cost for maintenance and regular servicing of the 2,000 kilometres?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, the reason why we were
instructed by, or the government decision was made to offload these roads‑‑initially
it was felt we have roads that have less than 100, less than 50 vehicles a day
on them. It was felt that municipalities
could probably maintain them cheaper than we do. That could probably, with that
little vehicle traffic on there, reduce the standard where we had pretty
stringent standards. That is what has triggered the decision to do that at a
saving of approximately $4 million a year, now and forever in terms of the
saving we would have by transferring it back.
However, to offset that‑‑knowing
that after the first two years when we compensate them and they could do with
that money what they wanted, though we encouraged very strongly that that money
should be used to take and either upgrade or help with the maintenance of those
2,000 kilometres that we turned back‑‑we paid them approximately $6
million over two years, $3 million a year that we paid the municipalities for
that, and the last payment was sent to them at the end of the last fiscal year.
Mr. Edwards: The annual cost in today's dollars was $4
million a year to maintain and service to our standards, that is the province's
standards, those roads, and that of course will increase with inflation as time
goes on. The total one‑time
payment over the last few years was $6 million.
That is essentially it?
Mr. Driedger: We called it a one‑time compensation
spread over two years. We gave them $3
million a year before, and we gave them $3 million last year. That is it.
There is no more money that they will get from this department or from
government to maintain those roads. It
was a one‑time shot, and I admitted as I have from the day that we
started this thing, this was an offload from the provincial government onto the
municipalities.
Mr. Edwards: Madam Chairperson, that is an understatement
if I ever heard one. That is an enormous
offloading to the municipalities.
Essentially what the minister is saying is
in perpetuity, as long as he is, certainly, the minister. That is an enormous turning over. I guess what I am most concerned about is
that the municipalities have less money or certainly no more money than the
provincial government. How many of those
2,000 kilometres now, if any, have actually been closed, or are they all still
open for vehicular traffic?
* (1510)
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, from the time that we
turned them over, and they have had them now for two years, I am not aware that
any have been closed. The level of
maintenance on it is something that it is up to them. Whether they maintain them at our standard or
whether they maintain them at a lesser standard, this is the decision that they
basically can make on it. I know from
some correspondence that hits my desk from time to time that individuals feel
that the standard has been dropped much below what our standard was and so
there is a certain amount of unhappiness.
I mean, I am not denying it and this is a reality of life‑‑a
thing that I have been living with.
I just want to mention to the member that
I have scars all over my back from this process and it will take a long time
till they heal I guess. But I went
through a very, very difficult process for myself and my department in terms of
doing this, but that was a decision that was made over two years ago and now I
think we are to the point where the majority of the municipalities‑‑majority
of them‑‑accepted it then.
There were certain municipalities that felt very sensitive about it, but
that was the process that went through.
In fact, the fact that we are discussing
it now even gives me heartburn, Madam Chairperson, because we have discussed
that every year. I should have sent the
member the Hansard from the last two times that we had our Estimates up and
then he would have maybe realized the difficult process that I went through
doing it.
Mr. Reid: You know, if the minister is saying already
that some of the standards of the roads have fallen, not been maintained to the
provincial standards, I can only imagine what it is going to be like when they
are not getting any money. They have
been getting $3 million a year so far which is three‑quarters of the
actual cost‑‑former cost.
Now, there are not going to be any more payments. The quality of those roads is going to
deteriorate rapidly, and I venture to say that in time, although portions of
the 2,000 kilometres have not been closed yet, they certainly will be.
At least, that would seem to be a
reasonable prediction based on what the minister is saying, but in any event,
obviously the decision has been made and the minister is set in his ways on
this. I simply conclude on that issue by
saying that is an enormous offloading, and I cannot believe that those roads
will in time be maintained or even kept open by the municipalities knowing the
financial constraints that many of them are under.
Let me ask on the objectives portion of
this, it indicates that the department's work is run in a manner which
incorporates the principles of sustainable development and environmental
awareness. Now, Madam Chairperson,
sustainable development is a term, in my estimation, which is coming close to
being a term of mockery given the number of times that this government uses it.
Virtually everything that is sent out is done in concert with the principles of
sustainable development, they say. What
it means, I think most people still believe, is a mystery in real terms.
Let me ask the minister: in this branch, having used that terminology,
what has been done in the last year that the minister can say was in the interest
of incorporating the principles of sustainable development and environmental
awareness?
I do not want vague assertions of, well,
we generally think about it when we do things.
What has been done? What
specifically has been done? What program
has been initiated? What guidelines have been set? What instructions have been given in the
interest of incorporating the principles of sustainable development and
environmental awareness? I bring to the
minister's attention that in the objectives portion, there is only one sentence
and the incorporation of those terms takes up half of that sentence, so half of
what he has sought to say in the Objectives portion is about sustainable
law. It must be an important principle
to the minister to have taken up that much time in the Estimates book.
What has he done specifically that
warrants that level of reliance on the so‑called principles of
sustainable development and environmental awareness?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, the member takes and
covers a whole realm of things before he gets into his questions, and then I do
not know whether I should reply to the initial discussions or whether to the
tail end, but I will try and do both.
He was making reference to the quality of the
road maintenance being down after they do not get any money anymore. I
indicated earlier that it was my suggestion and the recommendation that that
money be used for the maintenance on these roads, if we turn back what they did
with the money‑‑
Mr. Edwards: But it is only $6 million.
Mr. Driedger: Whatever it is, but municipalities did with
the money what they wanted. Some bought
equipment, some used it for other purposes.
We did not dictate what they should do.
We just suggested what they should do with it. So, on the quality of the road maintenance,
that is their jurisdiction at this stage of the game.
Coming back to the questions that he
raised specifically on sustainable development, what specifically have we done
in my department? For example, we have
taken our used tires to recycle them. We
do the same thing with the oil. We have
a lot of equipment, the oil that basically is being sold to Enviro‑Oil.
We used rebuilt parts instead of new parts all of the time. These are all
things that basically would be sustainable development.
Mr. Edwards: Madam Chairperson, on the first point, I am
not questioning that the municipalities spent maybe the whole $6 million on
maintaining these roads over two years, but that is three‑quarters of the
actual cost over two years, and they have got maintenance responsibilities for
those roads forever.
* (1520)
Even if they spent $6 million, the full $6
million on that, it is woefully short of what the department's real cost was
and what they know the real cost was for maintaining those roads to an adequate
and safe standard Unless the minister is
saying that the province's standards are so far above what is necessary, which
I doubt he is saying, then these roads are going to be unsafe.
If they have fallen below provincial
standards‑‑are provincial standards so high that we do not have to
maintain these roads to provincial standards?
Because there are 50 or 100 cars a year, we do not worry about it? If there was 1,000 we would take it more
seriously, but if it is only 50 people, maybe a 100 people a day, we do not
worry about it so much?
If there is only that few cars, then the
maintenance will be less of course, it will be less travelled. The real cost, he said, is $4 million a year
forever. With inflation factored in it
is going to go up. He has given $6
million, one time, forever.
It is just not even close to what is going
to keep these roads in good shape for even, I would venture to say, the next
two years. In any event, the minister
says, principles of sustainable development, he has done tires, he is recycling
oil. Were those things done for the first time in the last year?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, the member goes back to
turning back 2,000 clicks and then gets into this area. So I will cover it again that way. I can debate this all day, except in the fact
that I have never made any bones about it to the municipalities or to the
general public. When we turned back the
2,000 kilometres, it was an offload.
If the member has concerns about the
safety end of it, I think he is underestimating and doing an injustice to the
municipalities, because in each municipality it affected them based on the
amount of PRs, PTHs they had in their area.
In some cases it was six kilometres, in some cases 10 kilometres. Out of the whole network that municipalities
have, I mean these are the better standard roads that they have. I mean he has concerns that these are the
roads that are going to be unsafe for public. My God then, he should get out to
the municipalities and look at the kind of roads that they have, some of which
are just cow trails.
These used to be part of the artery system
that was established in 1965 and has never been reviewed. You know, the patterns have changed. Still, in most cases the municipalities are
going to take and maintain them to the level that they feel will provide the
service for the area, as they do with all their roads in the
municipalities. You take a municipality
with 10 sections of land, the crisscross system of roads through there‑‑not
10 sections, 10 townships, 10, six, eight townships‑‑they have a
road system in place. It is not the end
of the world. It is a cost offload that
we have done on them. They know that; I know that. I cannot change that.
The member asked, under sustainable
development, whether this is just in the last 12 months that we have done this
sustainable development with tires and oil.
No, it has been done even before that, but we keep on escalating in this
area to make sure that we get maximum advantage out of it. We continually look for other areas, like I
mentioned before, using rebuilt parts instead of new ones. Those are the ones I can identify for him
now.
Mr. Edwards: Madam Chairperson, this is the Estimates book
for 1993‑94. The fact is that this
government in every department, and in this book‑‑I mean almost
virtually every branch in the Objectives, there is something about sustainable
development, sustainable development. We
are doing wonderful things on the issue of sustainable development.
Well, this is the book for one year. This suggests, by taking up half of the
Objectives portion here, that something has happened in the last year. If these Objectives, and I would hope that
they were the things he mentioned which are pretty rudimentary, pretty basic,
have been done, I would hope that they had been done years ago, given that the
WRAP Act was put into place in 1989 by this government, and you would think
that they would have had their act together provincially for some time.
1992-93, what was done in this branch that
warrants that kind of statement? What
new was done that warrants saying that these programs incorporate the
principles for sustainable development? What was done this year that warrants
that kind of reliance for credibility in this branch on sustainable
development?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, if I did not have it in
there, he would be kicking my butt all over the place saying that we have given
up on that. This is an ongoing thing. If the member wants to read the whole thing
and look at an environmental awareness, I can give him realms of information
about the difficulties we have in terms of trying to deal with environmental
issues every time we build a road, every time we reconstruct a road.
For example, on Highway 16, the Yellowhead
Route, where we are doing reconstruction on an ongoing basis, when we affect
one of the, pardon the expression, duck ponds, for every acre that we take away
from my colleague's duck ponds, I have to replace it by constructing additional
facilities and sloughs. Would you
believe it? Three and four to one for
everyone that I take.
So, on the environmental end of it,
whatever I do, whether it affects a crocus patch somewhere along the line or
whether it affects some nesting bird that has nests‑‑[interjection]
Well, the member can maybe appreciate the
comments made by my colleague for Natural Resources (Mr. Enns), the sensitivity
about environmental awareness, and we are very, very conscientious about it,
where at one time we did it more casually.
At the present time I think we have over one engineer that deals with
nothing but environmental concerns, and for every project that I tender out
there that goes to a private contractor, before we proceed with the tender, we
have to have an environmental licence.
This has changed dramatically just in the
last few years in terms of the awareness and pressure that comes down on my
department because of people like him, with all due respect, that insist that
we cannot disrupt anything that has been there for whatever reason. I should not say facetiously, when I make
reference to duck ponds or a nesting area for a certain bird, but those are
basically the things that we are very conscientious about, and my department
has had to change dramatically in terms of how we do business.
Mr. Edwards: Madam Chairperson, the minister indicates
that I would be upset if those terms were not in there. That is right, I would, but when they are in
there I would be concerned that they are in there and do not mean that this
department has progressed. The minister
cannot point to something that has happened this year that is new. He has it in here every year. What I am
saying is, if you put it in, it should mean something. It should mean that you
have something new, some initiative, something that is happening, unless you
are saying that the department is perfect.
Is he progressing on this issue? And, well, maybe I will let him answer
that.
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, my staff are challenged
continually to look at new ways to come up with the sustainable development
aspect of it. They are looking at these
things and I made reference to the ones that are ongoing, where we try and even
enhance this. If the member has some
suggestions to make other than what my staff are looking at all the time,
please, I would be very pleased to hear him tell me, do this or do that within
my department in terms of sustainable development.
Within the limitations that my department
has‑‑there are limitations to what we can do‑‑if the
member has new suggestions, I will take and just implement as fast as we
feasibly can any new suggestions that the member makes in terms of what he
thinks should be done further beyond what we are doing now.
Mr. Edwards: Well, Madam Chairperson, we will get to
that. Is there an expert or some
designated person in this department who is there as a resource, a specific
resource, on the principles of sustainable development and on environmental
awareness as the department goes about doing its day‑to‑day
activities, who advises the department?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, John Hosang, who is in
charge of that, is the one that I rely on to make sure that these things are
being addressed and looked at properly, and I have all the confidence in him
and his record that he has shown to date that if there are areas of concern
that he can deal with that way, he will certainly do that, and I have all the
confidence in him.
Mr. Edwards: Madam Chairperson, I am certain that the
confidence is well founded, but the minister indicated that we are always
looking at new ways of doing things.
Would he or Mr. Hosang indicate, put a list down of the new ways of
doing things that the department has come up with in the last year that would
warrant saying that we are acting continually in a way that is consistent with
sustainable development? What are the
new ways of doing things that this department has come up with in the last 12
months?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, I am trying to be very patient
with this member in terms of, you know, he is belabouring why we have this in
there, and he admitted if we did not have it in there that he would be crawling
all over my frame.
By having it in there, what basically it
indicates is that we are continue on the basis of looking to continue with
sustainable development and certainly addressing the environmental issues.
I am going to see whether we can, and I
will check with staff, but it is not something that I have right here now, to
see whether there are certain specific things that, you know, how they operate
in terms of addressing it. I will try
and get a bit of a sheet to the member if he has a little patience. It will not happen today, but I will get it
to him in terms of how we operate and look at the things that are done in more
detail so that he has a better comfort level there.
Mr. Edwards: I would appreciate that very much. Madam Chairperson, specifically on this
issue, what instruction has been given to operators of machinery to use ethanol
whenever possible as a priority fuel if available and throughout the
province? Has there been a specific
direction to operators to use ethanol whenever reasonably practical?
Mr. Driedger: Well, Madam Chairperson, first of all, let me
tell the member that you cannot use ethanol in our diesel engines, which most
of them are. As far as the gas
requirements are concerned, when I was Minister of Government Services we
tendered on the basis of giving consideration, I think an edge, to Mohawk where
we did our tendering up to a point. So
it is being tendered and everybody bids on it, with certain consideration being
given in favour of Mohawk fuel. Then
whichever price comes in best, that is how my colleague from Government
Services buys it on behalf of the department.
Mr. Edwards: Does the government make a purchase province‑wide
through Government Services, or does Highways and Transportation do any
purchasing on its own of gasoline?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, Government Services does
the tender on the anticipated requirements of the department, and then we have
a distribution system where they have to deliver it. For example, if Esso or Shell get the
contract through Government Services, we have our areas or distribution points
where they have to then deliver, whether it is Beausejour, Dauphin, Brandon,
whatever the case may be, where the requirements are. It is tendered on that basis that the
delivery is at the sites, and they are aware of that. That is basically how it is done.
Mr. Edwards: Specific to the Department of Highways then,
who got the contract to deliver gasoline to the Department of Highways last
year?
Mr. Driedger: You know, I think it would probably be more
appropriately asked of the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Ducharme) how
he does it. I know that I had that
portfolio and responsibility early on in my tenure, at Government Services as
well as Highways and Transportation, but at that time we would tender in
certain categories and we had more than one supplier. I think last year, if I
recall, and the Minister of Government Services can confirm that, but I think
Shell had a portion of it based on areas, and I think Imperial Oil had a
portion of it. There were others. The
Minister of Government Services probably could give me that information, but‑‑
An Honourable Member: Domo.
Mr. Driedger: ‑‑and Domo. I do not know, but, for example, in certain
areas of the province, let us say the Thompson area, you know it is broken out
to some degree in terms of how we get certain prices delivered so that they can
get maximum benefit financially in certain areas because the bidding is not
consistently for each area the same, if I recall correctly.
Mr. Edwards: Madam Chairperson, as far as the minister is
aware, it was not Mohawk that got any of the contracts?
* (1530)
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, not in my department.
Mr. Edwards: How many litres of gasoline were used in the
Department of Highways, roughly, in terms of thousands or millions of
litres? What is the annual use? The department must know. The department puts its requisitions into the
Department of Government Services, estimates what its use would be. Maybe I can ask what the actual use last year
or the projected use for next year from the Department of Highways was?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, I have always tried to be
very accommodating in terms of trying to get this information. We do not have that here. The member must understand that this deals
with all my equipment throughout the province, whether it is motor graders,
trucks, winter roads, the whole ball of wax.
We have some figures but we do not have them here. I will get them for him and for the other
member as well in terms of details.
Like I say, the other question would
probably be addressed better to Government Services. Do you just tender for Highways or do you
take Natural Resources as part of the package?
So we will have to try and break out this information for the member as
best we can. When they tender it it is
not tendered just for my department. We
give an expectation of what we basically need.
I will try and get that figure for the member.
Mr. Edwards: That is all I am asking. If it was something that you did not have
that you were not calculating anyway, I would not have asked for that because I
would have seen it as unduly onerous, but as far as I understood, the
department and the government on a department‑by‑department basis
does come up with a figure, obviously, for the tendering package and if you can
get that, that would be great. In
addition, if the minister would, while I am sure the information is together,
diesel, as well, if it is available and that would be appreciated.
Mr. Driedger: I will give that undertaking to the member.
Madam Chairperson: (b) Mechanical Equipment Services (1) Salaries
$7,267,200‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $10,839,500‑‑pass;
(3) Less: Recoverable from Other
Appropriations ($21,177,700)‑‑pass.
4.(c) Warehouse Stores, (1) Salaries
$453,100.
Mr. Reid: Madam Chairperson, is it a plan, or is it
anticipated that the department will move towards centralization of its
warehousing of stores, a product that is consumed by the minister's
department? Is that in the works now?
Mr. Driedger: No, it is not our intention. We intend to continue on the system that we
have in terms of distribution at the present time.
Mr. Reid: Are the supplies then that are, as the
minister says, going to remain as part of the warehousing of equipment for his
department, are those supplies purchased through the Department of Government
Services?
Mr. Driedger: Yes, we indicate our requirements for our
shops and other requirements that we have.
We establish that. We give that
over to Government Services and they process or do the tendering and then
ultimately, my department pays for that.
Mr. Reid: Then the supplies that are required are
tendered out through an open tendering process?
Mr. Driedger: Yes, and if the Minister of Government
Services does not do that, I would be very upset, because I need the best buy
for the buck every time.
Mr. Reid: I cannot recall if I asked this in the last
Estimates or not, but I will ask it again anyway. Do we have a preference or a policy in place
for purchasing a product within the province of Manitoba with respect to any
differential, say, of 10 percent cost difference in price, or do we just leave
it on the total open tender process and the lowest bidder gets the contract?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, basically, if I understand
the tendering process, the best price gets the deal. Especially over the years, we have been
moving towards trying to break down the barriers between provinces. We have this understanding in most cases with
the western provinces. We are strongly
encouraging the federal government and the eastern provinces to take and come
on stream with taking down the provincial barriers between provinces because we
feel there is a lot to be gained for allowing our people to bid in other
provinces as well as on federal contracts.
So we have moved dramatically in the last five years, I believe, at
least since I was here and had Government Services. We have moved towards not having any barriers
or preference for province. I think the
question probably should be raised more specifically with Government Services
on certain issues whether there still is a‑‑[interjection] Pardon
me?
The Minister of Government Services (Mr.
Ducharme) is giving me some advice here that if it is a supplier or
manufacturer from an eastern province versus one of ours here that there would
be a preference given if it is from out east.
To the west, we have basically abolished the preference clause for
Madam Chairperson: 4.(c) Warehouse Stores (1) Salaries $453,100‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $132,000‑‑pass; (3) Purchases $4,940,000‑‑pass;
Less: Recoverable from Other
Appropriations $5,225,000‑‑pass.
4.(d) Northern Airports.
Mr. Reid: This is obviously an important area to the
people of northern
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, maybe I would like to take
just a little time here and maybe explain to the member what my views are on
our northern airports.
As you can see, we operate and maintain 31
airports and aerodromes in the province, most of them in the northern isolated
communities. It had been my hope and
recommendation virtually every year that we take and set aside a certain amount
of money to try and upgrade our airports, especially in northern areas, because
when we talk with providers of service, for example, Perimeter Air Manitoba and
other carriers, we meet with them and talk with them about what improvements we
can make to the airports.
I am very pleased to say that we have had
nothing but compliments basically from our carriers saying that the maintenance
has been increased to the point where they save themselves a lot of money. For example, Perimeter I think saved
themselves a big bundle by better maintenance of airstrips in the North, where
they used to have their props scoop up the rocks and stuff of that nature. So there has been a major saving to them.
I want to compliment John here with the
limited resources that we have that we gradually get a better standard going
all the time. In order to maintain our
airports, I am trying to improve the level of strip that we have. Aside from going to the‑‑I think
that provision should be made in the long run to look at maybe paving some of
these strips. Costs are very
horrendous. At the present time, we have
not got any consideration to do that. We
are just looking at gradually upgrading our standard all the time.
* (1540)
What we have to do in some of these
isolated communities, we tender for rock crushing during the course of the
winter when they can move in with their equipment and maybe get out before the
winter roads close. We do the crushing
so that‑‑you know, we try and do it in such a way that our supplies
would last for five years maybe, should we crush enough. In many cases, actually, we cut deals with
the communities as well. If they have
some requirements, we tie that in as well, so they can capitalize on better
prices for their requirements.
In terms of future plans, we have been
negotiating with the federal government in terms of trying to establish a new
airport in the Waasagomach area. We are
in the midst of coming to, hopefully, some agreement with the federal
government in terms of the cost‑sharing arrangement. Where we were first looking at providing a
service only for Waasagomach, we are looking at the possibility of‑‑and
we have not got this approved yet, we are working on it, but I am giving the
member some idea of what we have in mind‑‑establishing one airport
between Waasagomach and St. Theresa and then have a road connection both ways.
The member is probably aware that the
airport at St. Theresa has limitations.
We have water on both sides, and even now the people have to use a boat
to get down to the airport because it is built on an island. We think that in the long run, if we can get
the funding into place and get the agreement with the feds worked out, we
should be able to establish one airport, a bigger one, so that we can deal with
the kind of equipment that our operators would like to expand to for the future
and maybe go with a strip that is longer than the normal one that we have out
there.
We are just trying to plan for the future,
because our operators, like Perimeter, say that ultimately they are trying to
operate more efficiently and provide a cheaper service, so they need to have
more sophisticated planes to basically land.
They need longer strips for that.
So we work very closely with them in terms of what their requirements
are, what the community's requirements area.
I am hoping that within the next six months to a year we can have an
agreement struck as to specifically where and what we are going to do with St.
Theresa and Waasagomach in terms of an airport.
That is the big plan. That is the community that, by and large, we
prioritized to provide this service.
There are other areas that basically
I personally feel that more priority
should be put on some of these. I think
we should look at having capital in there somewhere along the line from my
perspective for further upgrading and being more efficient in terms of the kind
of runways that we have up north. I just
wanted to get that on the record.
Mr. Reid: The minister referred to some meetings with
the federal government trying to work out some kind of an arrangement to deal
with the funding for the construction or maintenance of the northern airports,
particularly in the St. Theresa,
Which of those airport operations then
would become the primary airport for the
(Mr. Gerry McAlpine, Acting Chairperson,
in the Chair)
Mr. Driedger:
That would be the first stage, to build
the airport and a road connection to Wasagamach. Once having completed that we would then take
and we would still be using the St. Theresa Airport that we have now until we
have a road constructed to St. Theresa so that ultimately that other airport
would probably become, what, extinct? We
would not use it any more because this would be the main one being used at that
time.
Mr. Reid: Can the minister give me some background on
the Manitoba Airport Assistance Program?
Mr. Driedger: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I welcome you to this
committee. We have a grant system that
we basically assist municipal airports with.
We have a scale that we use depending on the quality or the type of
airport that they have. I think our
maximum grant per municipality, the top end is, what, $2,400 and the bottom end
is $1,200.
So if it is a paved runway then we give an
assistance of $2,400 for a municipal airport, and if it is a gravel runway we
give them $1,200.
Two years ago we doubled the grant that we
give to the municipalities for their airports.
Would that one person could do more but that is not the case. This is what we are basically giving them,
and the grant has not been changed for this year.
Mr. Reid: I thank the minister for that information. Can he explain to me what improved
efficiencies there were at the northern airports that would allow for the
elimination of two and one‑half staff years for positions?
Mr. Driedger: The one staff position was a cleaning service
basically, or the staff will be taking that over. The other position was basically seasonal
positions that were involved, and we think we can do that. That is part of the efficiency that we are
trying to achieve.
I want to just maybe at this time also
indicate to the member that in our northern airports this is where we hire the
biggest component of native and aboriginal people up North. We have training programs for them as there
are changes taking place, and we have some very good efficient operations out
there. It is working well for us.
Mr. Reid: What does the minister mean when he says
seasonal? What type of seasonal work would you do at an airport? Do the airports not operate year round? Why do we have seasonal employees outside of
snow clearing maybe which then could be turned into the summer maintenance
programs for the runway?
Mr. Driedger: Mr. Acting Chairperson, we do some brush
clearing at the end of the runways in summertime. These are the kind of things we do. Most of our maintenance is basically done
during the course of the summer on a seasonal basis. I am not talking of the operations of the
airport which goes on, but the maintenance and upkeep of the runways basically
is something that we do during the course of the summer. Like I say, the brushing at the ends of the
runways, cleanups, some patching, that is the kind of seasonal work that we are
doing.
Mr. Reid: Who is now going to do that work then if the
seasonal people are eliminated?
Mr. Driedger: Mr. Acting Chairperson, we have a variety of
seasonal people on there. Basically what
we are just doing is trying to make it a little bit more efficient so it is not
that there is going to be a downgrading for safety reasons or any other reasons
because we have removed actually one and a half positions. You know, it says two and a half but one is
cleaning staff so it is not a big change in there really.
I have to tell you that we are very, very
conscientious about safety. First of
all, they are our airports, our runways and we are very conscientious of the
federal safety requirements, the training that we do with our people. We get them in, we train them for
emergencies, for firefighting. We have
good equipment in most cases and train them how to use this equipment. I am very pleased at the way the operation is
going with northern airports.
Mr. Reid: Would the air services branch fall under
Northern Airports here, or is that a separate section of the minister's
department?
Mr. Driedger: Mr. Acting Chairperson, that does not come
under here. I might as well just start
the conversation going and tell the member that air division and radio and
communication which used to be a component of my department has been moved to
Government Services, so the water bombers, the air ambulance and the few planes
that we have are now under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Government
Services (Mr. Ducharme).
* (1550)
Mr. Reid: Why was that decision made to move it to
Government Services when it had been in the minister's department for, what I
recall, a fair period of time?
Mr. Driedger: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I would like to say
maybe I do not know but that is not the case.
The reason the move was made, it was felt that Government Services is a
service‑oriented department and that it would fit better into that
category than it would in this department.
So the decision was made to do it in that sense.
Mr. Reid: I must have missed something then because I
do not understand that reasoning. It had
been in the department for a fair period of time. The minister's department is a transportation
department providing transportation services including aircraft. I do not understand the logic or the reason
the minister has given for that transfer.
Is there some other consideration that was taken by cabinet to cause
that decision to be made?
Mr. Driedger: Mr. Acting Chairperson, probably the question
could be better answered by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) when his
Estimates come up, how they rationalized some of the amalgamations and
decisions that they made. By and large,
as they look for efficiencies in terms of how certain departments deliver
programs, because Government Services does, for example, deliver the services
of government vehicles, et cetera, it was felt that this was that kind of a
service that we were delivering and that it should move with Government
Services.
Mr. Reid: Has it meant any kind of a cost saving for
the minister's department? Is that the
reason why? Is it more efficiently
handled under the Government Services than under the Department of
Highways? Was that the consideration?
Mr. Driedger: