LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Thursday, April 29, 1993

 

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

 

 

PRAYERS

 

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

 

PRESENTING PETITIONS

 

Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Brian Lamirande, Annette Lamirande, Janice Lamirande and others requesting the Family Services minister (Mr. Gilleshammer) consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba.

* * *

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of J. Kendall, Rose‑Marie Gieni, B.G. Nunn and others urging the government of Manitoba to consider keeping the Misericordia Hospital open as an acute care facility.

* * *

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Nancy Hilliard, Rob Hilliard, Joanne Swayze and others requesting the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider restoring funding of the Student Social Allowances Program.

 

Introduction of Guests

 

Mr. Speaker:  Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon 15 ESL students.  They are from the Sir William Osler School.  They are under the direction of Judy Johnson.

            On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon.

 

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

 

Assiniboine River Diversion

Federal Environmental Review

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon).

            Mr. Speaker, we have been raising questions in this Chamber since April of 1991 to the government on the Assiniboine diversion project.  We have raised questions about the scoping of the proposal, the magnitude of the proposal and the need for federal‑provincial, basin‑wide reviews.

            We felt that the project affects the federal Fisheries Act, the Navigable Waters Act and potentially the First Nations Long Plains, all of which come under federal jurisdiction, based on precedent from the Oldman River and the Rafferty‑Alameda, all criteria that would precipitate a federal‑provincial environmental assessment.

            I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon) a question I have asked him in his Estimates and Question Period before.  Will he agree to have a federal‑provincial environmental assessment to deal with the total basin‑wide concerns of the proposed Assiniboine diversion project?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  Mr. Speaker, we have entered into the provincial process in terms of the Clean Environment Commission review.  The member knows full well that the federal authorities will make a decision based on their criteria whether or not they believe there needs to be work done that they require for their‑‑any permitting requirements that they would have.

            Mr. Speaker, this is not any different than a number of other projects that have been undertaken, and it will be handled by the book.

 

Assiniboine River Diversion

Legal Opinion

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, the Premier knows, in his Estimates, I have asked him, on the one hand, how can we have a position about the downstream impact of Rafferty‑Alameda and not have the same comparable position for federal‑provincial environmental assessments on the Assiniboine diversion projects for communities upstream and downstream on the Assiniboine basin proposal?

            I would like to ask the Premier, in light of the decisions that have been made on the Oldman River‑‑again a project to divert water from the water system for a few users affecting other users‑‑in light of the decision that has been made by the federal courts on Rafferty‑Alameda, will he now tell us whether he has a legal opinion that will substantiate the proposed way the government is going, and that is to proceed on a provincial study without a federal‑provincial assessment?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  It is interesting that this born‑again environmentalist, who was part of a government that did not conduct a public environmental assessment review on the biggest project in the history of this province, the Limestone Generating Station, just absolutely swept it aside with no public environmental assessment review, is now starting to become an expert on the requirements for the federal intervention in this.

            The federal government has lawyers; they have a department that is charged with the responsibility of meeting the requirements of their act.  It is the federal government that must decide whether or not this project meets the criteria under their act for a federal review.

            It is not this government that makes that decision; it is the federal government.  If he knew anything about environmental assessment, he should at least understand that.

* (1335)

Mr. Doer:  I asked the Premier a simple question:  Does he have a legal opinion?

            We know that the federal government's inaction on the Rafferty‑Alameda, the Conservative federal government's inaction on the Oldman River and the provincial Conservative governments in both Saskatchewan and Alberta were violating the law and the courts had to come in and say that a federal environmental assessment was necessary.  So I am only dealing with past history in western Canada.

            I ask the Premier again:  Does he have a legal opinion to justify proceeding on a unilateral basis with the Manitoba environmental assessment?

Mr. Filmon:  The process does not work that we proceed on a unilateral basis.  The process works that the project is put out for review by both levels of government under their acts as to whether or not it requires a public environmental assessment and review, and we have already determined that obviously it does under our act and we are giving it that review.

            The federal government has the responsibility to do the same thing, and the federal government are very fully aware of the issue of Rafferty‑Alameda, of the Oldman River dam, of all of those projects.

            Obviously their lawyers are very conscious of what their legal responsibilities are, and they have court cases to ensure that they are documented as to what their requirements are.  The federal government will make that decision as their act calls for, Mr. Speaker.

 

Assiniboine River Diversion

Information Release

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  A new question to the Premier.  Since 1991 there have been biologists talking about the impact downstream in Selkirk; there have been people in Brandon‑‑in fact, I believe the City Council of Brandon passed a motion opposing this proposal.

            There are people who have been raising legitimate concerns on the Assiniboine diversion project and its upstream and downstream impact.

            The government just made a statement about unilateral action.  Well, the City of Winnipeg today, another user of this water, has stated that Manitoba Environment has unilaterally decided that the Pembina Valley project was not in a position to respond to certain issues raised by many interveners and therefore that material would not be available for the proposed environmental hearings.

            I would like to ask the Premier again:  Will this material be available to all interveners and will we have a proper environmental assessment, or are we going to have unilateral action by the Manitoba Environment department as cited?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  Mr. Speaker, the member is misrepresenting the process.  The fact is that information will be made available in response to the questions. That will be part of the process.

            The concern that the member continually wants to raise from that side of the House about whether or not there is some different way or some approach to this review that we have ignored is totally wrong.  We are taking every precaution.  We are cognizant of any concerns that might be raised around this issue and we will take very great care to make sure that the commission responds appropriately, and that is the position I have taken from the start.

 

Hearing Postponement

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, we recall the last major sets of recommendations from the Clean Environment Commission to the government.

            I would ask the government again, that consistent with previous studies on Selkirk by independent biologists, the city is saying the reduction of these target flows places progressively greater stress on the pollution‑control efforts of the city and that acceptability of waste‑water treatment.

            I would like to ask the government:  In light of all their concerns in terms of the deficiency in the study now and the lack of information, will the government be holding hearings downstream in other communities, as we have asked before, and will the government halt this hearing process until all the information is available so that all the basin‑wide data that is necessary to review this project is available for decision making?

* (1340)

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  Mr. Speaker, I have said consistently that the commission made the recommendation for the hearing sites based on the concerns and the presentations that they had.

            The number of concerns and presentations that were presented from the city of Winnipeg and the town of Selkirk were very small in number, and it was deemed to be appropriate that the hearing sites could be located in Portage and the Shellmouth in respect to the Assiniboine River.

            The member raises the question about the condition of the water at Selkirk.  He knows full well that we have been the only government that has made some progress towards cleaning up the rivers going through the city of Winnipeg.  His administration ignored it for a decade.

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, we passed The Environment Act to take away the City of Winnipeg's exemption that the Premier (Mr. Filmon) had left in place when he was Minister of Environment.

            This is not going to deal with the problems raised in the study.

            I would like to ask the government again:  In light of the fact that the city is saying that this will have a significant impact on the flow regimes and users along the entire river, including the reaches through Winnipeg and beyond Winnipeg and that these conclusions are not available from the environmental impact study that has been done to date, will the government stop this process and make sure that all the material and data that is necessary on the significant impacts is considered by the Clean Environment Commission and that it has the credibility of communities and people in communities upstream like the people of Brandon and downstream like the people of Winnipeg and Selkirk?

Mr. Cummings:  Mr. Speaker, these are all issues that will be on the table in front of the commission in terms of the request for information.  If there is information that is not seen to be complete, the commission will ask those who are making the request to make sure that it is answered, or the appropriate licences will not be possible.

            The Department of Natural Resources is working consistently to provide additional information to the requests from the commission.  The proponents have consistently been brought back to the table to provide additional information as a result of the request that we have received as a result of the publication of the guidelines.

            Mr. Speaker, this will be a complete and open hearing process.

 

Social Assistance

Child Care Subsidies

 

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster):  Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the minister responsible for Family Services.

            I have a constituent of mine who has just recently been offered a job.  She is receiving social assistance.  This particular individual cannot afford to have a nonsubsidized daycare spot.  In an attempt to try to find a spot, she has been unsuccessful and, unfortunately, it looks like she is going to have to turn down this particular job.

            My question to the minister, Mr. Speaker, is:  How does the government save money by keeping someone on social assistance as a direct result of cutting back on subsidized child care spaces?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, we have explained before, the changes that we have instituted in Child Day Care with this budget, that we have had to cap the number of subsidized spaces that government can afford.  We had some 10,000 children in subsidized care within the last year.  By attrition, we are going to move that down to 9,600.

            If the individual that the member represents would need some assistance, I would assure him that we have staff at the daycare office that would assist in trying to help out.

Mr. Lamoureux:  Mr. Speaker, I will definitely pass on the name. Again, I would ask the minister to answer the question in a more direct fashion by saying, how does a government justify having individuals remain on social assistance because there are no subsidized daycare spots that are out there in order to help them get off of social assistance?  How can you put money‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member has put his question.

Mr. Gilleshammer:  Mr. Speaker, I can assure the member that we will do everything we can to assist people who have a job offer to leave the social assistance program.  We are limiting the number of subsidized spaces this year.  There is always a graduation process from daycare as those children move into the public school system.

            I would encourage the member, if he wishes to speak to me privately, we can assign somebody from the daycare office to assist that person to see if we can facilitate a subsidized spot.

* (1345)

 

Child Care Centres Subsidized Spaces—Flexibility

 

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster):  Mr. Speaker, to the minister: Some communities experience an enormous change in residence and, therefore, in the use of daycare facilities.  This use may be as a result of seasonal jobs, school year, et cetera.

            Will the minister consider adopting a more flexible approach in the number of daycare spaces available in those areas where the use of the daycares varies substantially from season to season?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  I would invite the member to perhaps come to Estimates in the near future where we talk in more detail about the daycare budget and the daycare system.  Again, we were looking at some additional licensed spaces and, again, I would offer to act as a conduit. If the member wants to bring me that information, I will put his constituent in touch with the daycare office to see if we can assist him.

 

Provincial Court Judge

Justice Department Review

 

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington):  Mr. Speaker, not once, not twice, but three times in the last nine months, a provincial court judge has shown an appalling lack of sensitivity when it comes to a wide range of situations:  child abuse, domestic violence and now sexual assault.  On March 26 after the second incident, the Minister of Justice stated he was reviewing the transcript and the issues involved to see just what is the appropriate action that ought to be taken by the Department of Justice with respect to the judge in this matter.  Now, clearly, nothing has happened.

            When will the Minister of Justice take action to ensure that this judge will no longer hear these kinds of cases?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, the latest news report setting out the latest case that has been of some concern compounds my concern about the role that this particular judge is playing.  Obviously, the Department of Justice disagrees with the findings in this latest case.  The Department of Justice is appealing the matter as well as the other matter.  With regard to the judge himself and the role that he has played, I have instructed my department that I expect them on Monday to have reviewed transcripts into these matters and to have placed before me options for where we might go from here.

Ms. Barrett:  Mr. Speaker, well, I would like to ask the Minister of Justice why he did not have that kind of immediate timetable of three days after the second incident.  What kind of assurances can the Minister of Justice give the women and children because these are the people who are being abused by this provincial court judge?  What assurances can he give the women and children of Manitoba that between now and the time he deals with these options, women and children will not come before this judge and his docket?

Mr. McCrae:  I do not think the honourable member should be preaching to this government, Mr. Speaker, about a commitment towards the eradication of this kind of behaviour in our society.

            In a comprehensive way, this government has taken this issue head‑on and we have gone head‑on with the judiciary and with well‑known media commentators and others in our defence of the zero tolerance policy of this government towards violence in our society.

            So I do not need to take any lessons from the honourable member who supports a party that did diddly‑squat in the number of years that it had to do something about this terrible societal problem.  That being said, other than supporting that particular kind of political party, I have no criticism for the honourable member, because of the interest that she has shown in this and appropriately so.

* (1350)

Ms. Barrett:  Mr. Speaker, when will the Minister of Justice actually start implementing the recommendations of the Pedlar review dealing with the education of the judicial body in the province of Manitoba, and when will he make sure that not another woman or child appears before that provincial court judge?

Mr. McCrae:  Mr. Speaker, the reason I am troubled about the latest news is that we have indeed made significant progress here in Manitoba in the area of education for the judiciary.  I cannot help but‑‑if we find in today's news that we appear to have had a setback.  But on the other hand, education for the judiciary is something that is happening today, something the New Democrats cut in the 1988 budget, something we have restored and something we have increased money for over the years.

            So it is not the honourable member's intention, it is her tone when she raises her question; this tone of righteous indignation which is so incorrect.  You cannot describe a New Democrat in those terms because it is not right.  They are hypocrites when it comes to this kind of an issue.  So the point‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

 

Point of Order

 

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader):  Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Justice, in response to some very straightforward questions, was skating on some very thin ice in terms of being parliamentary, and I think he just went through the ice when he referred to this member as being a hypocrite.  That appears on both lists, has been ruled as unparliamentary.  The tone I think was very clear, because the minister tried to politicize what were very nonpolitical questions asked on behalf of the women and children of Manitoba.  I ask that he withdraw that comment.

Mr. McCrae:  In my zeal to promote zero tolerance I used language that I should not use, and I am sorry for that.

Mr. Speaker:  I would like to thank the honourable member for that.

Mr. McCrae:  But I would like to say‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  That is fine.  The honourable minister has withdrawn the comments.

            The honourable minister, to finish his response.

* * *

Mr. McCrae:  Mr. Speaker, we view this matter very seriously and I have told my department that I expect by Monday to have appropriate options available to me beyond the normal course of the appeal that we have already stated that we are going to proceed with, and if there are further options available I will know about it Monday and we will proceed from there.

 

St. Boniface Hospital

Bed Closures

 

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):  Mr. Speaker, we understand today that a further 39 surgical beds are to be closed at St. Boniface Hospital, to be replaced by day surgery beds.

            Can the minister confirm whether the closings of these 39 beds are in addition to the 38 surgical beds which he announced would be closed on November 18, 1992 at Health Sciences Centre and St. Boniface, or are these additional beds in addition to the 38 he announced in November?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, the information that I have received from St. Boniface Hospital indicates that over the past, oh, roughly 12 to 16 months, they have initiated in some of their surgical programs a new method of patient management wherein it delays or eliminates the need for admission prior to surgery, and that has reduced the length of stay significantly.  The experience that they have had over the past 12 to 16 months has led them to the conclusion that they can maintain their level of surgical activity with fewer beds, and they intend to announce in the very near future, it is my understanding, the process of retiring those surgical beds from service.

            Mr. Speaker, I want to reiterate and reinforce that this has been on the basis of some 12 to 15 months of experience in surgical program that has led them to the conclusion they can offer quality patient care with fewer surgical beds.

Mr. Chomiak:  Mr. Speaker, my supplementary to the minister remains the same as in the initial question, because I think the minister did not deal with the question.

            Are the 39 beds to be retired or to be closed by St. Boniface Hospital in addition to the 38 surgical beds that the minister announced would be closed in November between St. Boniface and Health Sciences Centre?  Are they in addition, or are they part of the beds that the minister announced in the original November announcement?

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, I will clarify this for my honourable friend if my assumption is incorrect, but I believe that this is another group of surgical beds as a result of, as my honourable has indicated, not‑for‑admission surgeries and probably more important, a new process of admission patient management to lower the length of stay, so that they can offer the same level of service they have in past years with fewer surgical beds.

* (1355)

Mr. Chomiak:  My final supplementary:  I am wondering why this is taking place now and how this relates, Mr. Speaker, to the report of the provincial surgery committee which is scheduled to report May 1.

            Is this in relation to the surgery committee?  Is it co‑ordinated through that committee, and why is this taking place prior‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, you know, from time to time, I get troubled where my honourable friend comes from and from whence his concerns come.

            Surely, my honourable friend recognizes that as more and more surgical procedures are accomplished in not‑for‑admission, where advances in technology such as laparoscopic surgery become the modus operandi, so that, for instance, gall bladder surgeries are now very, very short stays, improving the quality of outcome, improving the quality of the surgical procedure and the discomfort to the patient‑‑all of these trends are happening in Canada, across Canada, in North America, and indeed the free world, and they are all leading to a lesser demand on surgical beds.

            Now, Mr. Speaker, as these processes of change come into play, hospitals will respond accordingly and reduce the number of‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

 

Sexual Assault

Identity Release

 

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice.

            I think all members of this House have applauded and supported the initiatives that have been taken at provincial and federal levels which will prevent the release of a convicted criminal when that person has been convicted of an assault, because what in essence they are attempting to do is to protect the victim, not the criminal.

            Yesterday, we heard of an incident in which an individual has been convicted of abusing his stepdaughter, has been given an 18‑month sentence, and the judge has not only refused to divulge his name but has put a court order on his occupation as well, despite the fact that the victim believes that this individual's name should be released.

            Can the minister tell the House how it is determined that the protection of a convicted sexual abuser's name and identity is made?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable member for this question.

            I think what usually happens is that for fear of making public the identity of a victim of sexual abuse or assault, the name of the accused is often ordered to be withheld.  In this particular case, there are certain factors that come into it that I think are somewhat different from the usual case where this happens.  One of the newspapers is looking at this with a view to having a review of the judge's decision on that matter and so is the Crown.

* * *

Mr. Speaker:  Just prior to recognizing the honourable member for River Heights, the Chair is having a little bit of difficulty at this point in time.  The honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) in her questions and, indeed, the honourable Leader of the second opposition party is following along the same vein.

            A rule that is very rarely used‑‑and I just think at this point in time I would like to quote it for all honourable members.  It is Beauchesne's 493.  It says:  "All references to judges and courts of justice of the nature of personal attack and censure have always been considered unparliamentary . . . ."

            I just caution all honourable members in the phraseology that you might be using.

Mrs. Carstairs:  Mr. Speaker, that is why I was very careful not to mention any names.  In fact, we are under a court injunction not to do so.

 

Public Protection

 

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  With a supplementary question to the minister:  There certainly is public knowledge that the individual who has been convicted in this case has as his normal function a profession which deals with other young people.

            Can the minister tell the House what follow‑up is being done by the Department of Justice to ensure that future victims are protected?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General):  I think basically we are dealing with the same question as previously.  Because of what the honourable member has said about the occupation of this person and the likelihood of this person coming in contact with young people, that is precisely the reason that the Crown is looking at the ruling in this case with a view perhaps to appealing it if that is possible so that no one is going to be unwittingly in contact with someone who has been found to be a danger.

* (1400)

 

Reduced Workweek Essential Services

 

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson):  Mr. Speaker, the government is sending out yet another letter, this time from the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission, in regard to Bill 22, attempting to explain to the many people in the public sector what will be happening with this bill which, by the way, has only just been tabled in the Legislature for second reading and has not been passed and probably will not pass for some time.

            One of the questions that is being asked, and I ask this either to the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission or the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) who brought in this bill, is, it refers once again to the fact that, in this case, institutional, seasonal and essential positions will not be included under the seven days off in the summer and three days off without pay in the Christmas period outlined for other employees.

            I would like to ask the minister if there is a definition yet of exactly what an essential service is.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister responsible for The Civil Service Act):  Mr. Speaker, first of all, I think with respect to seasonal operations of government, I am sure all members of this House would want this particular program to utilize common sense.  Certainly, in some departments such as the Department of Natural Resources, the Department of Agriculture, Department of Highways, where a very important part of their function is during the summer period, we have the flexibility in this model to ensure that certain parts of their operation that are essential in the operations of the government will operate during this period and the employees affected will take other time during the year.

            I can tell him that I have had discussions with several of the employee associations that would be affected, and they are very amenable to this particular process.

Mr. Ashton:  Mr. Speaker, common sense would indicate that if you talk about essential services, you know what you are talking about.  I would like to ask again, because that is the question, and to either the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission or Minister of Finance who introduced the bill:  What is an essential service?  What is not going to be affected by this?

            We have already seen courts being dealt with one way, liquor commissions the rest.  What is an essential service?  When will we know what services are going to be included in that?

Mr. Praznik:  Mr. Speaker, I would like to just separate somewhat the question of the member for Thompson because there is a difference between seasonal operations whose operations have to go forward during the summer season particularly with respect to Natural Resources, Agriculture, Highways, for example, and essential services.  I tell him with respect to some essential services, for example, in Health, et cetera, that we also have the model of Easter Monday when the public service is not working and there is a set of operational rules that apply on Easter Monday, for example, and various days between Christmas and New Year's.

            In each department we are working out those rules currently and how this will apply in those areas, and I think if he were to look at those models with respect to essential services, he would have a good idea of the guideline that is being worked on now.

Mr. Ashton:  Mr. Speaker, the public of Manitoba and also the civil servants are asking many questions.  They want to know when will the government give a list of what services are essential or not.

            Are conservation officers going to be considered essential services or not.  Are social workers or are court systems?  When will the minister give us a list of exactly what services will and will not be available under this provision?

Mr. Praznik:  Mr. Speaker, the member for Thompson‑‑and I say this with all due respect‑‑I think is somewhat confusing seasonal operations with essential.

            We provide essential services in government on Easter Monday.  We provide it during the Christmas season, whereas seasonal services‑‑certainly, I would not think that members opposite would expect that certain seasonal services in the Departments of Highways, Agriculture, for example, Natural Resources, not take place in the summer which is their busy time, when those days can be taken off at other times of the year.

            So I just point out to him that he should separate essential from seasonal, because they are very different.

 

Education System

Reform Report Release

 

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  Mr. Speaker, over the past two days, we have seen the Minister of Education destroy any credibility that she may have had in this House with her blatant disregard for the facts both in terms of actions and in terms of her words.

            First, it was the letter to Mr. Hobbs of Flin Flon where she claimed to have funded education above inflation over the last five years, and then yesterday she was given the opportunity to clarify precisely when she received the report on education reform and why she kept it secret for the last number of months. Again, she chose the devious route in this House.

            Now, I ask the minister to be straightforward in the House today.  When did she first see the report on education reform? When was it sent‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member has put his question.

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, let me answer a few of the questions that the member has raised.

            First of all, the letter sent to the member's constituent was absolutely correct.  The government share of funding for education support to schools has in fact increased by 36 percent, not the numbers that member used.  So that, Mr. Speaker, was correct.

            Now, he asks when did I see the first report, and the member did not ask that question yesterday.  I am happy to tell you, I saw the report of the task force in November and there were a number of issues which had to be dealt with in the intervening time.  I have a great number of issues that I am happy to speak to him about, and let me begin by saying that, as I said yesterday, the report was delivered in English, the report was to be translated, the translation was to be accurate in tone.

            There was no difficulty with the service that we received in the issue of translation by any means.  The issue was that the committee members had to approve that the translation was accurate and was consistent with the English copy.

 

Property Taxes

 

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  Mr. Speaker, the minister had another opportunity to be straightforward and chose not to again.

            I am going to give her another opportunity, Mr. Speaker.  Can the minister explain how she can truthfully write in her letter of April 23 to the Riverview School Community Association that the province is committed to doing what it can to restrain increases in property taxation, when she is part of a government that has increased property taxes by $75 to every household in this province?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Let me tell you, Mr. Speaker, first of all, again, in relation to the report, that this government received the sign off from the task force finally on March 29, 1993.  From that point then, the report had to go to print.  The report was then released as soon as possible following the printing.

            In relation to the issue of taxation, I think that we have expressed our concerns through Bill 16 to protect the interests of the taxpayer in this province.

Mr. Plohman:  Missed again, Mr. Speaker, missed again.

            Mr. Speaker, I want to ask this minister today, and she has another opportunity to be straightforward‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  With your question, please.

 

Department of Education and Training

Supplementary Estimates

 

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  Will she tell us, since her Estimates are only 10 days away or so, precisely when she is going to table the Supplementary Estimates for the Department of Education, so we can see exactly‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member has put his question.

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, I look forward to tabling the Supplementary Estimates, as I look forward to the Estimates process with my honourable friend.  That will occur as soon as possible.

 

Point of Order

 

Mr. Plohman:  On a point of order, missed again, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker:  The honourable member does not have a point of order.

 

Emergency Room Physicians

Patient Care Monitoring

 

Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The Maples):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

            We have been receiving some phone calls from constituents who are concerned about the strike of the emergency room physicians at five major hospitals.  The strike has been going on for 48 hours.  Initially, the impact may have been very low, but now that the weekend is approaching things could get worse.

            Can the Minister of Health tell us:  Who is monitoring the patient care during this time?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, I appreciate my honourable friend's question because the situation is, to date, quite stable.  We, on a daily basis, contact all of our major urban hospitals in Winnipeg to find out whether there were any difficulties or deficiencies in the process, and so far, Sir, we have had a reasonably effective alternate and contingency system working for Manitobans who need emergency services.

            We are redoubling our efforts tomorrow at two o'clock to assure that as we approach the weekend, we hope we can manage as effectively as the facilities have managed over the last two days.

Mr. Cheema:  Mr. Speaker, one concern was raised that patients are unable to get proper information about where they have to go and get their treatment.

            Can the Minister of Health tell us who is ultimately responsible to make sure that information is given properly to the patient?  Also, is there some phone number the patients can get hold of so that they do not have to go twice to the same hospital?

* (1410)

Mr. Orchard:  Let me deal with my honourable friend's question in two parts.

            First of all, we have a substantial and good working relationship with the Winnipeg ambulance system so that any Winnipeggers, any Manitobans who are needing to access a hospital via ambulance, that they are fully aware of the status at each of the hospitals and will make the appropriate trip to the right hospital to deal with the needs of their patient.

            Secondly, in terms of those who will come on their own, either have a friend or a family member drop them off or bring them to emergency, the advice has been consistent that they check with the hospital to assure that they can receive the services there and have that advice‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

 

Transportation Costs

 

Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The Maples):  One of the concerns raised by patients is who is going to be paying for the transfers between these hospitals during this strike time.  Can the minister tell us who is ultimately responsible to pay those costs?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  We recognize that there may be some difficulties that emerge, but the standard method of payment now‑‑for instance, third‑party coverage for ambulance service‑‑will cover the costs, it is our understanding.  There is the issue of interhospital transfer, which is currently covered under existing policies.

            If there are difficulties that emerge, we would be sensitive to trying to resolve those, Sir.

 

Provincial Sales Tax Impact

Base Broadening

 

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East):  On Saturday, May 1, families and children in this province will become acutely aware of the negative impact of this government's budget when the 7 percent sales tax will be placed on hundreds of new items including children's clothing, baby supplies, meals, take‑out foods and snacks.  The newspapers have already said that their sales will be hurt by this tax when it is applied to them.

            Can the Minister of Finance advise this House whether he has any studies or information showing to what extent consumer spending will be reduced by the imposition of the 7 percent sales tax?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Mr. Speaker, I thought the member would rise and congratulate us for holding the sales tax, which he says is so regressive, at the second lowest in Canada.

            I acknowledge that the government has had to broaden the base somewhat.  We did so because we wanted to collect sales tax on those purchases outside of Canada, and the only way that the federal government would collect on our behalf at the borders is if we expanded the base, no differently than the Province of New Brunswick which had to do the very same thing, Mr. Speaker, if the federal government was going to collect tax at the border.

            So I would think that the member would be happy as far as his question.  Indeed, if the sales tax extension itself is going to bring forward an additional $20 million or $25 million, that is then how much, obviously, will be less able to be spent by the people of the province.

Mr. Speaker:  The honourable member for Brandon has time for one very short question.

Mr. Leonard Evans:  Well, the people of Manitoba will not be very happy with this‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  Question, please.

 

Revenue Growth

 

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East):  Mr. Speaker, what is happening to his retail sales tax revenues?  I am particularly talking about the first three months of this year, because I note that retail sales have declined by 1.5 percent in February, and, year to date, Manitoba is nine out of 10 provinces in terms of retail sales.

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Mr. Speaker, I wish the member had given me some notice.  I certainly would like to provide him with the very latest specific detail on that question.

            Certainly, over the last three months, sales tax revenue growth has maintained the forecast, which is slightly increased. There is no doubt in the last month that there has been a slight decrease in the actuals, but over the course of the last several months, we continue to be on forecast.

Mr. Speaker:  Time for Oral Questions has expired.

 

Speaker's Ruling

 

Mr. Speaker:  I have a ruling for the House.

            On Wednesday, April 21, 1993, during debate on the second reading of Bill 16, the Acting Speaker took under advisement a point of order raised by the acting government House leader, the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Downey), about language used by the honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett).  After interventions from the official opposition House leader and the honourable member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock), the Acting Speaker took the matter under advisement.

            In reviewing Hansard, I note the member for