LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Friday, April 30, 1993

 

The House met at 10 a.m.

 

PRAYERS

 

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

 

PRESENTING PETITIONS

 

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Karen Richard, Brenda Ferland, Ken Genaille and others, requesting the Family Services minister (Mr. Gilleshammer) consider restoring funding to friendship centres in Manitoba.

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Cheryl Sinclair, Stacey Berry, Donna Krut and others, requesting the Family Services minister (Mr. Gilleshammer) consider restoring funding for friendship centres in Manitoba.

* * *

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Glenn Hosea, Phyllis Tolsma, Grace McConkey and others, requesting the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider restoring funding of the Student Social Allowances Program.

 

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

 

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Ms. Friesen).  It complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed]

Mr. Clerk (William Remnant):  The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

      WHEREAS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and

      WHEREAS over 1,000 young adults are currently attempting to get off welfare and upgrade their education through the Student Social Allowances Program; and

      WHEREAS Winnipeg already has the highest number of people on welfare in decades; and

      WHEREAS the provincial government has already changed social assistance rules resulting in increased welfare costs for the City of Winnipeg; and

      WHEREAS the provincial government is now proposing to eliminate the Student Social Allowances Program; and

      WHEREAS eliminating the Student Social Allowances Program will result in more than a thousand young people being forced onto city welfare with no means of getting further full‑time education, resulting in more long‑term costs for city taxpayers.

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider restoring funding of the Student Social Allowances Program.

* * *

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Santos).  It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed]

Mr. Clerk:  The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

      WHEREAS the United Nations has declared 1993 the International Year of the World's Indigenous People with the theme, "Indigenous People:  a new partnership"; and

      WHEREAS the provincial government has totally discontinued funding to all friendship centres; and

      WHEREAS the provincial government has stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and

      WHEREAS the elimination of all funding to friendship centres will result in the loss of many jobs as well as the services and programs provided, such as:  assistance to the elderly, the homeless, youth programming, the socially disadvantaged, families in crisis, education, recreation and cultural programming, housing relocation, fine options, counselling, court assistance, advocacy;

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Family Services minister to consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba.

 

Introduction of Guests

 

Mr. Speaker:  Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this morning from the Van Walleghem Elementary School seventy Grade 5 students under the direction of Kim Peppler.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable First Minister (Mr. Filmon).

      On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this morning.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

 

Manitoba Telephone System

Unitel Hookup Costs

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, in the Wall Street Journal, there is an ad for AT&T which is now buying into Manitoba business through their purchase of 20 percent shares in Unitel.  There is an ad talking about how the border will no longer be a barrier for AT&T to buy shares.  In fact, they have the border there reminiscent of the free trade debate in 1988, with the talk of the Americanization of the telecommunications system.

      I would like to ask the Premier, in light of his government's policies and the federal Conservative policies on Americanizing the telephone system in Manitoba:  What will be the impact on the bottom line of the Manitoba Telephone System of discounters taking business and long‑distance business away from MTS, and the hookup costs for Unitel, the hookup costs that we will pay to Unitel to hook up to our telphone lines?  What will be the cost on the bottom line to the Manitoba Telephone System?

* (1005)

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, Manitoba Telephone System has obviously been dealing with the issue of deregulation and of ensuring that there is competition in the telephone systems of our country, so that we can avoid the prospect that will occur if we do not ensure that we are competitive in this province, which is that jobs will go south with the telecommunications industry or jobs will go elsewhere.

      We had, for instance, an issue that was raised in this Legislature and in the media about I believe it was the Liver Foundation which was doing fundraising out of Winnipeg.  In examining the issue as to why they would consider moving their operations outside of this province, it was because they could get telco rates less expensively in Edmonton, where they could have a wholesaler purchase the long distance trunk capacity and then resell it to individuals at a lesser rate.  By utilizing all of the aspects of the trunk connection on a 24‑hour basis, they could give lesser rates to smaller users such as this particular organization.  The net effect would be the loss of some 59 jobs to Winnipeg.

      So if we do not ensure that we are competitive, if we do not ensure that we are involved with the transition that is taking place in terms of telecommunications competition throughout North America, we will lose far more jobs in Manitoba in all of these related industries that have telephones and telecommunications as a basic part of their operation.

      So it is not as simple as the member opposite in his empty sloganeering would like to portray.  It is a real matter of understanding what it is going to take to build this economy and what it is going to take to ensure that the telecommunications costs are competitive here because telecommunications is one of the prime fields in which we can add jobs if we continue to be competitive, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, excuse us for being a little concerned about the discrepancy between the Premier's answer in this Chamber and the Minister of Education's (Mrs. Vodrey) decisions at our community colleges to cut sections dealing with telecommunications, but we have always known that the Tory economic strategy does not include education and training.  There is no co‑ordination between the right hand and the other right hand of government.

      Mr. Speaker, we had been involved in establishing competition at the Cellular telephone line.  We had set up a system where the two retailers competed together, but they came onto the Manitoba Telephone System line, and therefore the public that had paid for those lines got the benefit of the competition and the revenue because the public had paid for those lines.

      My question to the Premier is:  How can he support a policy where Manitobans are going to pay 70 percent of the hookup costs for Unitel which is now 20 percent American‑owned?  How can he support a policy which is not even just competition‑‑it is us paying a private company to come in and take away business from our consumers?

* (1010)

Mr. Filmon:  Mr. Speaker, the track record of the New Democrats in entering into business arrangements with the Telephone System leaves a lot to be desired‑‑$27 million lost in the sands of Saudi Arabia because those smart people over there thought they could compete with the AT&Ts and the Bell Northerns of this world‑‑absolute ignorance in which they went and squandered Manitoba ratepayers' money on the sands of Saudi Arabia.

      He speaks of the arrangements that they had made to get into the cellular communications field without telling us that Manitobans have lost money in their efforts in cellular phones since the time that his government got into it, that Manitoba Telephone System's Cellular has not only not made a nickel but has lost millions of dollars by virtue of their entry into that field.

      Mr. Speaker, what he does not tell is that Unitel has to pay 50 cents out of every dollar of revenue that they get from their operations to the Manitoba Telephone System for the privilege of using the Manitoba Telephone System infrastructure that he talks about.  No other arrangement ever was given to any supplier in this country on any basis where the first 50 cents out of every dollar of revenue has to go to the Manitoba Telephone System to pay for that infrastructure.

      Those are all things that were taken into account by the CRTC when they made these arrangements, when they analyzed them, when they understood the ramifications, not like the kind of empty sloganeering we are getting from the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, the Premier did not answer the question about what will be the impact on the bottom line of us paying 70 percent of the hookup cost.

 

Telecommunications Industry

Employment Creation Strategy

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  I would like to ask the Premier a final question.  His own trend strategy dealing with Education and Training includes a reduction of people in telecommunications.

      We see a reduction in the number of people working at the northern Telecom plant.  Every month or so, unfortunately, we see a couple more layoffs, 20, 19, 45, Mr. Speaker.  We see Unitel creating 400 jobs in Manitoba, announced, reannounced and announced again by the government, and that is one consolation, but we also see the Manitoba Telephone System plan filed by the Public Utilities Board indicating a reduction of 1,000 employees in Manitoba Telephone System.

      Mr. Speaker, what numbers should we believe in terms of job creation are correct, the numbers coming out of the Department of Education which show a reduction in employees and opportunities in telecommunications in Manitoba, or what number has the Premier got for net benefit to Manitoba?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, the member is confusing a whole series of things that are happening.

      The Manitoba Telephone System, in order to keep its own operations efficient and because of changing technologies that allow things to be done with fewer people, Manitoba Telephone System was going to have to move with the times.  It was happening in the '80s.

      In fact, I have a paper that says that the reason why the NDP government went into the Saudi Arabian operation was to avoid the layoffs of several hundred people in the Manitoba Telephone System, and the then‑chairman, Saul Miller, wrote to the minister responsible, the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), and said, we can avoid these layoffs by creating opportunities in a business in Saudi Arabia, a business in Saudi Arabia that lost $27 million for the people of Manitoba in order to try and avoid 200 or 300 layoffs at Manitoba Telephone System as they moved with the times, Mr. Speaker.  They did not want to move with the times.  They had their own bright ideas that have cost Manitobans dearly.

      The fact is, Manitoba Telephone System will move with the times, but in addition to that, because we are competitive, because we are doing the things that are necessary in order to be in the modern world in telecommunications, we are having a setup here by Unitel with over 400 jobs.  We are having a telephone service centre here from Canada Post with over 100 jobs.  We are having Canadian Pacific with over 200 jobs in telecommunications.

      All of those things are coming in here and more will follow, Mr. Speaker.  None of those firms are concerned with an availability of trained staff.  They know that our colleges and universities will produce the trained staff they need.  They have every confidence in it, and we have every confidence in it.

 

Poverty Rate

Government Reduction Strategy

 

Ms. Judy Wasylycia‑Leis (St. Johns):  Mr. Speaker, Manitoba, for the last several years under this Conservative government, has had the dubious distinction of having the highest rate of child poverty anywhere in this country.  We now have the more recent statistics bringing us up to 1991.  Manitoba now has the highest rate of poverty for all persons among all provinces anywhere in this country.  Our poverty rate for all persons in one year has increased from 17.1 percent to 21.1 percent.  That is more than one in five persons in Manitoba falling below the poverty line.

      I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon) if he is now finally prepared to recognize the serious nature of this problem and tell us what plan of action he has for attacking poverty in this province.

* (1015)

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, we have had a discussion of this during the Estimates process with the other critics from the New Democratic Party where we have looked at the rates, and Manitoba has rates that are in line with other provinces.

      We have looked at the manner in which Statistics Canada gathers their statistics and bases that particular poverty line on the cost of living in cities like Vancouver and Toronto.  We have looked at all of the enhancements that Manitoba has brought into the system of social allowances and, in fact, in Manitoba, we have the third lowest incidence of people who are accessing the social allowance system.

Ms. Wasylycia‑Leis:  Mr. Speaker, all statistics show that there has been a marked increase in poverty in Manitoba, making this province a national disgrace.  Our poverty went in one year from 183,000 to 218,000 Manitobans.

      I want to ask this government if it is now prepared to take steps to reduce poverty in this province, or is it prepared to play the game of the federal government by trying to make the problem go away by redefining the definition of‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member has put her question.

Mr. Gilleshammer:  Mr. Speaker, one of the most important things we do is review those rates on an annual basis, and we have had the opportunity to raise those rates according to the cost of living, but at the same time have brought in a number of other reforms that we have had the opportunity in the last few days to talk about with the critic from the New Democratic Party, about the number of enhancements we have made to the system.

      Again, we have also had a good discussion of how those statistics are generated and that those statistics reflect the cost of living in cities like Toronto and Vancouver and have to be looked at with a critical eye as far as their application to Manitoba.

 

Student Social Allowances

Program Reinstatement

 

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns):  Mr. Speaker, this government is playing a numbers game while people in this province‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  I remind the honourable member this is not a time for debate.

      The honourable member for St. Johns, with her question, please.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis:  Will this government, at least as a very minimum, Mr. Speaker, reconsider some of its devastating budgetary decisions like the elimination of the Student Social Allowances Program which will only add to poverty in this province and perpetuate the cycle of poverty?  Will it at least reinstate‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member has put her question.

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, I would invite the member to come to the Estimates process where we have had a chance to talk about raising the liquid asset rates, creating new programs for the disabled, to letting certain people who are accessing social allowance keep their health card as they move to employment.

      All of these enhancements are over and above the increase in the rates that we have annually increased to reflect the cost of living in Manitoba.

 

Manitoba Telephone System

Mandate

 

Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier.

      The Premier talks about MTS having to compete in a global economy and having to move with the times.  The problem is that the companies that the Premier is asking MTS to compete with have a fundamentally different mandate.  The mandate of AT&T and Unitel is to make a profit.  The mandate of MTS is not only to be fiscally responsible, but to serve remote areas in this province and rural Manitobans with affordable telephone services, something that AT&T and Unitel do not have as part of their mandate.

      My question for the Premier:  How does he expect MTS with its mandate, which is a social mandate for this province and in particular for rural and northern Manitobans, to compete with international companies whose only mandate is profit?

* (1020)

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether or not the member opposite is being consistent in the position that he is taking on issues.  As a candidate for the leadership of the Liberal Party, he is quoted in an article recently that says‑‑I think you will be interested in this.  You may be able to use this on the stump, as well.

      He was being questioned at a public meeting that he held recently with respect to his leadership by a former member of this House, Lem Shuttleworth, who said and I quote:  Shuttleworth suggested that if elected leader, Edwards could possibly win a provincial election if he leaned more to the left, to which Edwards replied, quote, I do not intend to sell my soul even to win an election.

      Now, having reconsidered that position, the member asks the question that implies that because it is publicly owned, the Manitoba Telephone System should be inefficient and uncompetitive in order to serve the people of Manitoba, simply an instrument of social policy within the province, which is absolute nonsense.

      If we allowed that to happen, of course, all of us would pay higher rates.  All of us would simply do what the New Democrats did and that is create jobs in Saudi Arabia so that they could justify their actions in trying to keep 200 or 300 more people employed at the Manitoba Telephone System.  It is absolute total nonsense, and it shows how confused the Liberal Party is in this province.

Mr. Edwards:  Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the Premier for reading some of my better quotes in the House.  As he has once said, I do not have time to read my quotes, but I am glad he does.

      Now, Mr. Speaker, the Premier says it is publicly owned and that is correct.  That means it has a public mandate.  It is not privately owned.  Its only mandate is not to shareholders in New York and Washington.  Its mandate is to the people of this province.

      My question for the Premier:  What effect is having Unitel and AT&T in this economy forcing MTS to compete in a global marketplace‑‑what effect is that going to have on their public mandate to offer affordable telephone services, in particular, to people in remote, northern and rural areas of this province, Mr. Speaker?

Mr. Filmon:  Mr. Speaker, interestingly enough, by being competitive and offering competitive rates, what will happen to the Manitoba Telephone System is that all of these other organizations, such as Unitel, such as others who are coming in here as potential resellers of long‑distance capacity, trunk capacity, will bring in businesses which will use greater volumes of long‑distance service in Manitoba.

      In fact, when you bring in a telephone service centre such as Unitel has, such as Canadian Pacific, such as Canada Post, such as others are going to set up here, you will have tremendous volumes of long distance being utilized in this province which are not presently here, which will add to the total volume of usage of the Manitoba Telephone System, which will help to keep the overall rates down.

      So the additional volume not only produces jobs in Manitoba in telecommunications, but produces the revenue necessary to keep the rates down.  That is something, Mr. Speaker, that the member obviously does not understand with respect to the Telephone System's operations.

Mr. Edwards:  Mr. Speaker, this is this pie in the sky, it is all coming up roses tomorrow, do not worry, we will be okay.  The fact is, MTS relies on those long‑distance rates to pay for affordable telephones around this province.

      Mr. Speaker, my question for the Premier:  How many years or decades down the road does he expect his prediction to come true, that we are actually going to be able to pay for all the telephone services to people outside the city of Winnipeg by having AT&T and Unitel come and employ thousands of people to pay for it?  How many years‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

Mr. Filmon:  Mr. Speaker, we continue to be able to pay for all of the northern and remote users of the Telephone System at low rates.

      If you listen to the people from the Manitoba Telephone System, they expect that they will continue to make profits while keeping the rates low and reasonable for Manitobans, and, if you look at the doom and gloom that was predicted by New Democrats and Liberals when, as a result of a CRTC decision our long‑distance rates were reduced, I believe, it was 40 percent overnight, what happened was that the total long‑distance revenue of the Telephone System went up 20 percent because of that. Overall it went up 20 percent, despite a 40 percent reduction in rates.

      That, Mr. Speaker, is what happens when there is greater volume, greater usage and more competitive rates.  It happens and it happens regularly, and I hope that the member opposite will do a little bit of studying on these issues before he comes to the Legislature with these questions in the future.

* (1025)

 

Poverty Rate

Government Reduction Strategy

 

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows):  Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Family Services would like to redefine the poverty line in order to make himself and his government look better in the eyes of the public.

      In the meantime, the standards are defined by the National Council of Welfare in their most recent Winter 1993 Report of Poverty Profile Updates from 1991.  So we know that 17.1 percent of all families in Manitoba are poor, the worst rate in Canada, that 21.1 percent of all persons in Manitoba are poor, the worst rate in Canada and 26.9 percent of all children in Manitoba‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member, with your question, please.

Mr. Martindale:  Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Family Services is:  What decisions has he made and what decisions has his government made in their most recent budget that puts more money into the pockets of poor Manitobans?

      We do not want to hear about the benefits in terms of liquid asset exemptions, which we have already heard about, but what is giving people more money in order‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member has put his question.

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated to his colleague in an earlier question, we annually look at the rates and increase them at the level of the cost of living.

      We do that at a point in time when government revenue is very low relative to what it was in the '70s and '80s, back when that member's fellow travellers were in government, when government revenue was increasing in double‑digit numbers.  They simply did not increase the rates at that time.  At the present time now, they are asking us to increase the rates above the level of the cost of living.

 

Social Assistance

Rate Adjustments

 

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows):  The minister talks about the rate increases on January 1.

      I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services if he will acknowledge that provincial social assistance recipients in their cheques this week are receiving less money and if the minister could explain why they are getting less money in their cheques this week.

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, I have indicated that we have annually increased the rates on January 1.  The Province of Ontario froze the rates on January 1 and refused to raise them this past budget year.

      There are some adjustments in the cheques this week because of the decisions made regarding the tax credits.

 

Poverty Rate

Government Reduction Strategy

 

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows):  The minister is unwilling to admit that they have reduced the supplementary benefit and that is why people are getting less money.

      I would like to ask the minister what‑‑

 

Point of Order

 

Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader):  Mr. Speaker, the minister in his response clearly said it was a result of the budgetary moves dealing with an equivalent to the property tax credit, which everybody would know is direct reference to the supplementary credit.

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable government House leader does not have a point of order.  There is no point of order.

      The honourable member for Burrows, with your question, please.

* * *

Mr. Martindale:  I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services what he or his government is going to do to ensure that poor people in Manitoba are better off as a result of their policies and not worse off, which we now know is the case.  The poverty rate in Manitoba is going to rise because of the policies of this government.

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, I would reiterate, because obviously the member did not hear it.  I said clearly, those differences in the cheques were a result of the changes made to the tax credits, which in effect is the supplementary benefit which he congratulated the government on last year when we took that step.  We will continue to address the rates on an annual basis.

      Again, I point out to the member that we have the third lowest incidence of citizens on social allowance, and our rates are comparable to those of other provinces.

 

Emergency Room Physicians

Contingency Plans

 

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):  Mr. Speaker, we are going into the weekend with a good deal of uncertainty respecting the emergency ward situation at the community hospitals.  I would like the minister to have the opportunity to clarify the situation going into the weekend.

      I would like to ask the minister, can he assure the House that if the strike is not settled today‑‑and I understand there is a meeting this afternoon‑‑that both St. Boniface Hospital and Health Sciences Centre can handle the obvious increased level of activity at the emergency wards this weekend?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, let me indicate to my honourable friend that the meeting this afternoon at two o'clock is with the ministry and the respective facilities, urban hospitals and the two teaching hospitals which are trying to manage emergency care during this strike period.

      Mr. Speaker, reports overnight have indicated, yes, an increase in activity, but that the system is still able to manage.  This afternoon at two o'clock, we hope to be able to further assure that the system, should the strike continue over the weekend, would be able to cope with emergency services.

      If I have any further communication as a result of that meeting this afternoon at two o'clock, I will make same available to the public at large.

* (1030)

Mr. Chomiak:  Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to that:  Can the minister advise this House that contingency beds will be available at Health Sciences and St. Boniface?‑‑because we know that at Health Sciences, for example, in the last three weeks the emergency ward was shut down due to lack of beds at least on one occasion.  Can the minister assure the House that contingencies will be available for beds to be made available in that instance?

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend might have missed or not remembered the answer I gave, I believe it was on Tuesday or possibly Wednesday.

      The process that is in place and the arrangement between the two teaching hospitals which are operating 24 hours, seven‑days‑a‑week emergency services‑‑the arrangement is this with the community hospitals, that should an individual present at either St. Boniface or Health Sciences Centre in an emergency circumstance and be stabilized, the arrangements are made for admission of that individual to the appropriate community hospital which would be the normal geographic area‑‑if that is the way to put it‑‑that this individual would come from.

      So the necessity of admission will be accomplished already with an arrangement that has been in place since Tuesday of this week with the urban hospitals and the two teaching hospitals.

 

Negotiations

 

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):  Mr. Speaker, this is my final supplementary to the minister.

      Mr. Speaker, I can take it from the minister's response that negotiations are not ongoing with the doctors.  Can the minister please advise this House as to what the status is of negotiations with respect to the doctors in an effort to resolve this dispute?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, the two sides will meet to recommence negotiations Monday.  We are hopeful that there will be an opportunity to resolve the issue very expeditiously after that, providing we can agree to a settlement, Sir.

 

Health Prevention

Children's Dental Health Program

 

Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James):  Mr. Speaker, one of the keystones of this minister's and this government's health reform package was to prevent illness and not have the expense of dealing with illness prematurely.  This minister and this government cut the Children's Dental Health Program in rural Manitoba.  It did not affect the cities of Brandon and Winnipeg.  It affected rural and northern Manitoba.

      My question for the Minister of Health is:  What could be more in the interest of prevention, Mr. Speaker, than a program which sought to prevent dental problems in children around this province?  What could have been more in the interest of prevention?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, I certainly welcome my honourable friend's question, because possibly he might listen very attentively so that he can better understand the role of education and prevention.

      My honourable friend, if I detected from his preamble, said that a cornerstone of health reform is prevention and education to prevent disease.  Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what we have maintained in the Children's Dental Health Program, the education of children and the prevention of dental disease.

      Mr. Speaker, the treatment portion, yes, has been removed from the program as of June 30.  I want my honourable friend to understand that the part he so desires will remain intact as a prevention‑education component of children's health in Manitoba.

Mr. Edwards:  Mr. Speaker, the distinction between prevention and treatment is a false one.  The minister seeks to derive that distinction.

      Mr. Speaker, my question for the minister is:  Those principles, prevention and education, were the principles before the cuts.  How does he intend to do the job when there are only five out of 49 staff people left doing the same work for 60,000 children in rural Manitoba?

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend might well be aware that part of prevention in the school system is fluoride rinse.  That is a very significant component and that will be maintained.

      My honourable friend might also know‑‑and he might visit communities in his newfound interest outside of the city of Winnipeg‑‑that while this government has been elected, a number of those communities outside of Winnipeg now have fluoridated water, also a preventative effort in building better teeth for Manitobans outside the city of Winnipeg, an initiative funded by this government, advanced by this government, supported by this government, all on the prevention side to give Manitobans better teeth.

 

Children's Dental Health Program

Meeting Request

 

Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James):  My final question is for the Minister of Health, and I am hoping that he will have a newfound interest in rural Manitoba and in the issues affecting those people.

Mr. Speaker:  Question, please.

Mr. Edwards:  Mr. Speaker, my question for the minister:  I assume, and I would like him to confirm, that he will be attending the meeting which is organized for the evening of May 11 in Minnedosa to discuss this very issue, to discuss the child dental health care program.  Will the minister be attending‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member for St. James has put his question.

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of an invitation to that meeting, but I know my honourable friend will want to be in Minnedosa so he can tell the folks of Minnedosa that under his leadership, the Liberal Party would not close the hospital in Minnedosa and not build hospitals in rural Manitoba, as has been the Liberal policy under the current leadership.

 

Central Child and Family Services

Statistics

 

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  Mr. Speaker, we have had confirmed that even though there is an increase in child poverty, even though there is an increase in violence among young people and numbers of children living on the streets, that the Streets Kids and Youth program will be closing.  This program received most of its funding through the Core Area Initiative, but now the more than 6,000 kids who were serviced through that organization will have to look elsewhere for food, shelter and some safety.

      My question is for the Minister of Family Services.  Of the approximately 1,700 young people under the care of the Central Child and Family Services as wards of the state, how many of those children are not accounted for in group homes or foster homes?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, the member is asking for some statistical information that I do not have with me today, but I would invite her to attend the Estimates process along with her colleagues.  A number of them have been there.  We are just about to launch into that area of the department.

      I would say that I met with a group of people from the Downtown BIZ organization yesterday to discuss the SKY program. The representatives of the business community that are involved in the SKY program presented information on their funding and the problems they are having with their funding for the coming year, and those matters will continue to be discussed.

Ms. Cerilli:  Mr. Speaker, my concern is that this government does not want to know the serious statistics of children in need in this province.

 

Education System

Enrollment Statistics

 

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  My second question is for the Minister of Education.

      Can the minister tell us what was the number of young people enrolled in school in Manitoba in 1991 in September?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, again, some of the details around school enrollment I will be happy to discuss during the Estimates process.

      As the member may know, the time in which enrollments are taken is in the fall, and I am happy to give her that information.  She may also know that there has also been some discussion around when enrollments should be taken in schools so that we have the most accurate count of young people who are attending school.

* (1040)

 

Student Completion Statistics

 

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  Mr. Speaker, I would also appreciate that the minister would bring me the number of students or young people who completed school in Manitoba in June of 1992.  How many of the students completed their year in 1992?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  I believe the member asked if I would provide that information during the Estimates process, and, yes, I will see that this information is available, because in Manitoba we do look at those numbers of students who have completed the Grade 12 year and have successfully completed the high school diploma.

 

Manitoba Mineral Resources

Reserves

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  Mr. Speaker, a couple of days ago, I asked the Minister of Energy and Mines whether in fact he had done any consultation with the mining industry or the mining partners of Manitoba Mineral Resources before he raided the kitty of some $16 million to make the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) look good by reducing his deficit.  The minister in his response said that he had consulted with the chair of the board.

      My question to the Minister of Energy and Mines is:  Can he share with this House or with myself any objective analysis of the potential impact of withdrawing that $16 million on the obligations of MMR to share in capital improvement projects should that be required within the next six to 12 months?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Energy and Mines):  Mr. Speaker, that indicates the priority which that opposition party and that member places on the mineral sector in this province.  I think it was almost a week ago that he asked his first question and did not get an opportunity to ask two supplementaries until today. So it is not a very high priority on the agenda of the members opposite. [interjection]

      I answered the question, Mr. Speaker, for the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman), and the answer is that the monies were taken from MMR after consultation was carried out with the chairman of MMR.  To my knowledge at this particular time, it will not impair the operations of MMR.

 

Trout Lake Mine

Capital Funding

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  Mr. Speaker, the people of Flin Flon and the people who rely on HBM&S, which was a joint‑venture partner with MMR, are not going to be satisfied with the minister's consultations with his political appointee.

      My question is:  Can the minister assure the people of Flin Flon and HBM&S that should additional investment be required in Trout Lake Mine, which is partnered with MMR, this government will provide the capital necessary to complete that venture to ensure jobs in the community of Flin Flon?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Energy and Mines):  Mr. Speaker, I can assure the people of Flin Flon and that area of the province that this government had a commitment of $55 million to upgrade a smelter that he could not get his colleagues to support, which created employment, which improved the environmental emissions that were coming out of that plant.

      It was this government that did the $55‑million input, not his operation.

 

Manitoba Mineral Resources

Reserves

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  The Minister of Energy and Mines keeps referring to a deal that they bungled.  It took three years too long‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Question, please.

Mr. Storie:  Mr. Speaker, my question is a serious question. Will the minister please indicate now whether Manitoba Mineral Resources will have the capital available to them to complete necessary joint‑venture projects in Flin Flon, Leaf Rapids and Snow Lake, should it become necessary within the next six to 12 months?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Energy and Mines):  Mr. Speaker, my answer is a very serious one to the member for Flin Flon.

      This government's commitment to the mining industry in Manitoba far outstretches, outreaches, anything that government, when he was in government, did.

      As far as the operations of MMR, Mr. Speaker, at this time, it is my understanding that the changes that have taken place with the capital fund that was in MMR have not impaired or changed the operations of MMR for this year.