LEGISLATIVE
ASSEMBLY OF
Monday,
May 3, 1993
The House met at 1:30
p.m.
PRAYERS
ROUTINE
PROCEEDINGS
PRESENTING
PETITIONS
Mr. Clif Evans
(Interlake): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of
Darcy C. Bialas, Keith W. Wark, Barry L. Dowsett and others requesting the
Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental
Program to the level it was prior to the 1993‑94 budget.
Mr. Leonard Evans
(Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of
Sandy Murray, Donna Illerbrun, Brian Kiliwnik and others requesting the
Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental
Program to the level it was prior to the 1993‑94 budget.
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (
Mr. Gregory Dewar
(Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of
Ken Parenteau, Rick Burgess, Bonnie Hartley and others requesting the Minister
of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the
level it was prior to the 1993‑94 budget.
Mr. Doug Martindale
(Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of
Myrna Swalm, Janet Kellow, Leesa Mackie and others requesting the Minister of
Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level
it was prior to the 1993‑94 budget.
Mr. John Plohman
(Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of
Lillian Strahl, R.E. Lee, S. Wiebe and others requesting the Minister of Health
(Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it
was prior to the 1993‑94 budget.
Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the
honourable member (Mrs. Carstairs). It
complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the
rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?
[agreed]
Mr. Clerk (William
Remnant): The petition of the undersigned residents of
the
WHEREAS the
WHEREAS the
WHEREAS the
WHEREAS the
WHEREAS the
WHEREAS the
WHEREAS the
WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray
that the Legislative Assembly urge the government of
* * *
Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the
honourable member (Ms. Wowchuk). It
complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with
the rules. Is it the will of the House
to have the petition read? [agreed]
* (1335)
Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of
the
WHEREAS the United Nations has declared
1993 the International Year of the World's Indigenous People with the theme,
"Indigenous People: a new
partnership"; and
WHEREAS the provincial government has
totally discontinued funding to all friendship centres; and
WHEREAS the provincial government has
stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and
WHEREAS the elimination of all funding to
friendship centres will result in the loss of many jobs as well as the services
and programs provided, such as:
assistance to the elderly, the homeless, youth programming, the socially
disadvantaged, families in crisis, education, recreation and cultural
programming, housing relocation, fine options, counselling, court assistance,
advocacy;
WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray
that the Legislative Assembly of
Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the
honourable member (Mr. Dewar). It
complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with
the rules. Is it the will of the House
to have the petition read? [agreed]
Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of
the
WHEREAS the United Nations has declared
1993 the International Year of the World's Indigenous People with the theme,
"Indigenous People: a new
partnership"; and
WHEREAS the provincial government has
totally discontinued funding to all friendship centres; and
WHEREAS the provincial government has
stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and
WHEREAS the elimination of all funding to
friendship centres will result in the loss of many jobs as well as the services
and programs provided, such as:
assistance to the elderly, the homeless, youth programming, the socially
disadvantaged, families in crisis, education, recreation and cultural
programming, housing relocation, fine options, counselling, court assistance,
advocacy;
WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray
that the Legislative Assembly of
* * *
Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the
honourable member (Ms. Friesen). It
complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the
rules. Is it the will of the House to
have the petition read? [agreed]
Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of
the
WHEREAS
WHEREAS over 1,000 young adults are
currently attempting to get off welfare and upgrade their education through the
Student Social Allowances Program; and
WHEREAS
WHEREAS the provincial government has
already changed social assistance rules resulting in increased welfare costs
for the City of
WHEREAS the provincial government is now
proposing to eliminate the Student Social Allowances Program; and
WHEREAS eliminating the Student Social
Allowances Program will result in more than a thousand young people being
forced onto city welfare with no means of getting further full‑time
education, resulting in more long‑term costs for city taxpayers.
WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray
that the Legislative Assembly of
MINISTERIAL
STATEMENTS
AND
TABLING OF REPORTS
Hon. Harry Enns
(Minister of Natural Resources): Mr.
Speaker, I know honourable members will wish to express appreciation to the
Manitoba Forestry Association for the annual tree that they provide to all
members here as a renewal of growth and the oncoming of summer and the coming
year.
I have a proclamation that I would like to
read:
WHEREAS
WHEREAS our forests provide millions of
Canadians and visitors with opportunities for healthful recreation and sport
each year; and
WHEREAS these same forests provide
protection in our watersheds for soil and crops and form a home for our
wildlife and also provide thousands of Canadians with jobs in the forest
products industries; and
WHEREAS the losses suffered each year
through man‑made forest fires are detrimental to the interests of all
Canadians; and
WHEREAS the Manitoba Forestry Association
is well known for its efforts in reminding us of our ever present
responsibility for the conservation of our forest wealth and is co‑operating
in the promotion of a national week focussing attention on our forest
resources.
NOW THEREFORE BE IT KNOWN that I, Harry J.
Enns, Minister of Natural Resources, do hereby recognize the days from May 2 to
May 8, 1993, as National Forest Week in
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Does the honourable minister have a couple of
copies of said proclamation? Has he only
got the one?‑‑because traditionally in the House, when we make a
ministerial statement, we do provide the critics with a copy.
Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The
Pas): Mr. Speaker, I guess I will thank the minister
for having placed a tree on my desk. I
will take it home when next I go to The Pas and plant it in my back yard.
I wanted to say that this government
somehow continues to claim that everything is fine and all right in forestry,
but the facts, I am afraid, tell us otherwise.
I think it is time that some of our cabinet ministers on the government
side leave their offices and travel to places like
Mr. Speaker, while the Minister of Finance
(Mr. Manness) and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) were congratulating the federal
government for their budget last week, that same budget announced the demise of
federal‑provincial forestry and mining agreements, and because mining
mostly takes place in northern
While the federal government budget was
mostly a smoke‑and‑mirrors pre‑election maneuvering, there
are special cuts which will affect northern
Over the past five years, mutual
development agreements have already been downgraded significantly in
The forestry industry in this province is
in terrible shape already. We are
concerned very much on this side that the province will not pick up the added
cost for forest management. We have a major task just restoring the forests to
the shape that they were in before 1989.
I want to close off by saying that we have
to do something with Repap. We have to
do something with
* (1340)
Mr. Paul Edwards (St.
James): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if, at the outset, I
might recommend to the minister that he also share some of these trees with
city councillors. It would be an
opportune time, I think, to share the trees.
Mr. Speaker, in all seriousness, this is
another National Forest Week that we are celebrating in this province and
across this country and, of course, I want to join with the minister and with
the Forestry Association in the sentiments expressed in the proclamation. I only wish that those sentiments were reflected
in the government's and this minister's actions from year to year as we assess
it.
Mr. Speaker, I do not want to belabour the
points I have made in prior years because they all still apply this year. Nothing has changed in the government's
agenda. Now, there is an opportunity with
a new Parks act, which we are all looking forward to, to perhaps salvage some
of that reputation on the protection of forests, but as we learned with the
Nopiming forest decision and this government's summary dismissal of the
recommendations and the findings of that report, this government's actions
never match the words and the rhetoric in things like this proclamation. I look forward to the day that they do.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
* * *
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey
(Minister of Education and Training): I am
pleased to table the Supplementary Information for the Department of Education
and Training for the '93‑94 Estimates expenditures.
Hon. Glen Findlay
(Minister responsible for the administration of The
INTRODUCTION
OF BILLS
Bill 29‑The
Minors Intoxicating Substances Control Act
Hon. James McCrae
(Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the
honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), that Bill 29, The Minors
Intoxicating Substances Control Act (Loi sur le controle des substances
intoxicantes et les mineurs), be introduced and that the same be now received
and read a first time.
Motion agreed to.
Introduction
of Guests
Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the
attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this
afternoon from the Garden City Collegiate, twenty‑five Grade 9 students
under the direction of the Mr. Gary Jackson. This school is located in the constituency of
the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak).
On behalf of all members, I would like to
welcome you here this afternoon.
ORAL
QUESTION PERIOD
The City
of
Infrastructure
Renewal
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): My question is to the First Minister (Mr.
Filmon).
Mr. Speaker, last week and throughout the
last number of years, dealing with discussions on the city of
Mr. Speaker, we are in receipt of a copy
of the letter‑‑and I will table it‑‑that the government
issued to the City of
I would like to ask the government: What was the criteria that the government
chose to make specific decisions on specific capital projects for the city of
* (1345)
Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister
of Urban Affairs): Firstly, let me say that over the five‑
or six‑year period, there is a $96‑million capital commitment to
the City of
On November 26, Mr. Speaker‑‑and
I will table a letter from Her Worship the Mayor‑‑outlined a number
of projects from which the province could be expected to choose. These were high‑priority projects for
the City of
Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I asked the minister the
criteria of the specific decisions. We
have reviewed the letter of the minister of April 30: $13 million for the Charleswood bridge; $1.7
million for
Mr. Speaker, there is a further $1 million
for the La Salle bridge, which we consider to be part of the Pembina corridor
and not part of any Conservative constituency.
When we look at the total of $24 million
to $25 million, some 75 percent is allocated in ridings held by the present
Conservative members. I would like to
know, what was the criteria used by the government for those decisions?
Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, I should perhaps draw the
member's attention to the fact that when he was Urban Affairs minister, the
Leader of the Opposition approved a certain bridge in the north end of
Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) never
raised concerns about our projects because they were city‑wide‑‑sewage
treatment plants, infrastructure renewal, some 85 percent.
I would like to ask the Premier, what was
the criteria for selecting the projects, some of them located in the Premier's
own riding? That, in itself, should not
disqualify people. I would like to know
why 75 percent of the specific capital projects agreed to by the provincial
Conservative government are in ridings held by the provincial Conservative
Party. What was the criteria, given that
everybody now, with stagnated urban population growth, has agreed that
infrastructure renewal should be the No. 1 priority for the city of
Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, perhaps the honourable Leader of
the Opposition cannot understand what the mayor said in her letter.
What the letter said was that there are
certain projects the city wanted to see.
We chose all but one of those projects. That one project happens to be a
major construction project, the Charleswood bridge, that has been in the works
for 30 years. It is not something that
happened overnight.
Emergency
Room Physicians
Patient
Safety
Mr. Dave Chomiak
(Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, all last week the government
stated that everything was fine in the emergency rooms. Yet, we have heard and read stories which
indicate, by the proponents of those stories, that patient care may have been
compromised, and that there may be in fact bed shortages at the Health Sciences
Centre and St. Boniface Hospital.
Can the minister assure this House that no
patient who attends in an emergency room will have their care compromised in
any way whatsoever?
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I know my honourable friend from
time to time does not necessarily preamble his questions accurately. This is no exception.
Mr. Speaker, I indicated at all times last
week that the system, despite difficulties, was coping with the withdrawal of
the emergency room doctors, not the preamble that my honourable friend put on
the record.
Further to the weekend experience at the
two teaching hospitals, there were difficulties in managing, but, Mr. Speaker,
the system did cope. Individuals needing
care received that care quite clearly, Sir, though not as expeditiously as they
may well have done had the system not been struck over the weekend.
* (1350)
Negotiations
Mr. Dave Chomiak
(Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, negotiations, I understand, are
resuming. The doctors say they had an
agreement and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) said, I believe, on open line that they were
very close to an agreement from the government's end.
Can the minister, in very simple terms,
outline for us today where the impasse is in terms of the agreement the doctors
say they have and the agreement the government said they were close to having?
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what will be
further fleshed out today and tomorrow in ongoing discussions and negotiations,
and I am sure my honourable friend in the tradition of a labour‑supported
party would not want one side negotiating in a public forum such as the
Legislature.
Mr. Chomiak: I would have preferred a settlement, Mr.
Speaker.
Mediation
Mr. Dave Chomiak
(Kildonan): My final supplementary to the same minister
is: Trust is a key factor in
negotiations. Last time there was a
dispute of this type, the government brought in, I believe, Wally Fox‑Decent
to arbitrate and mediate. Will this
government, if the agreement cannot be reached tonight, consider bringing in
someone of that stature to try to resolve the matter?
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I would not want to presuppose
that discussions which commenced today and will be ongoing presumably until a
settlement is reached‑‑I would not presume, as my honourable friend
may well be predicated to do, that they are doomed to failure.
I think everyone would be well served by a
resolution of this dispute, and I am optimistic that the discussions that
commenced today will lead to that result, Sir.
Emergency
Room Physicians
Update
Report
Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The
Maples): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister
of Health.
We are one week into the strike by the
EMOs, and I would like to ask the minister to give us an update on any major
problems over the weekend at local hospitals because of this strike.
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): As I indicated in an earlier answer to the
previous questioner, both Health Sciences Centre and St. Boniface reported
increased volumes as one would expect, and in certain circumstances,
individuals presenting for emergency care had to wait longer periods of time
than one probably would have expected them to wait under more normal
circumstances. Despite having
There was one area of difficulty and that
was in the absolute number of stretchers that the two teaching hospitals have,
and that has been a difficulty from time to time. However, I am led to believe that the admission
arrangements that I have explained on a couple of previous occasions with the
community hospitals are working reasonably well.
Patient
Safety
Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The
Maples): Mr. Speaker, the story in the media indicates
there were some serious problems at Health Sciences Centre, and one of the
physicians was quoted as saying it was good luck there were no disasters.
Can the minister tell us what the
minister's department is doing to ensure that the quality of care will not
suffer during what has been the perception for the last 48 hours?
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I was just checking some of my
notes. As I indicated, the Health
Sciences Centre indicates that they were very busy over the weekend and, with
the time constraints, as I indicated earlier, some individuals may not have
received care as quickly as normal circumstances may well have dictated.
I think one could understand that, but we
are told by Health Sciences Centre officials that the department currently is
busy but manageable, and there are no concerns about the quality of treatment
being provided today.
* (1355)
Resolution
Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The
Maples): Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Health
assure the people of
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, that would be, I think, a
reasonable expectation of government's approach to these discussions.
Elimination
of Volunteer Positions
Ms. Marianne Cerilli
(Radisson): Mr. Speaker,
I would ask the Minister of
Environment: Why is the minister
eliminating the 50 to 100 expert volunteers involved in Manitoba Environment
Council? Does he not like the advice he
has been getting?
Hon. Glen Cummings
(Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, I am
quite interested in the advice that I receive from the council. That has
nothing to do with the decision we had to make regarding funding.
The fact is, the grant of $50,000 to help
manage the affairs can in fact be partly replaced by the fact that we are prepared
to continue with them in terms of space, in terms of secretarial support. It has been a very open and ongoing
process. The member for Radisson
attended the advisory committee on Saturday, and I am quite prepared to
continue to receive advice.
Intervener
Funding
Ms. Marianne Cerilli
(Radisson): But, Mr. Speaker, if you want expert advice,
you have to pay for it.
Given that under Regulation 210(92) from
The Environment Act providing for the minister to set up a scheme for
environment assessment hearing cost recovery, when will such an intervener
funding scheme be announced for the
Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of
Environment): Mr. Speaker, I see the
member changed her tactic rather quickly when she realized that for the regular
attendance I am receiving at the Manitoba Environment Council, it is costing me
about $2,000 apiece per year to hear advice.
I intend to continue receiving advice from
that group and hope that the experts, some of whom are part of that council,
will continue to provide us advice. It
is their knowledge and their input that we need.
In regard to the funding of projects for
intervener status, that has a regulation that allows us to provide that for
certain types of processes, and this has not been deemed one that we felt
required that additional input.
Information
Gathering
Ms. Marianne Cerilli
(Radisson): Mr. Speaker, members of the council are very
critical of this project, and they are not happy with the decision this
government has made.
I ask the minister: How does the minister expect to get expert
data on the
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question.
* (1400)
Hon.
Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):
Mr. Speaker, there are a number of people who are collecting data for
presentation to the commission. I have
very high regard for the people who have been hired on behalf of the
Assiniboine River Protection Committee.
I believe that their expertise will be valued at the hearings.
Frankly, on both sides of the issue, there
is a considerable amount of expertise being brought to bear, and I would
suspect that all of those questions that are now being asked and some concern
being raised, that they will be aired and fully addressed at those hearings.
Social
Assistance
Child Care
Subsidies
Mr. Doug Martindale
(Burrows): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Family Services
has reduced the number of subsidized child care weeks for a job search from
eight weeks to two weeks, this in spite of the fact that he and his staff have
done no research on the number of weeks it takes to find employment. Numerous parents who have phoned me have said
that during a recession, two weeks is not enough time to find a job.
Can the minister tell us why in
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer
(Minister of Family Services): Mr.
Speaker, we are pleased to compare our daycare system with that in the
We have had to make some adjustments to
the system this year, and we would indicate that we would give individuals who
are having some difficulty a chance to talk with departmental staff. I would
assure you that they will get fair treatment.
Mr. Martindale: Mr. Speaker, it is obvious that the reason
the systems are different is that
Mr. Speaker, why did this minister decrease
the job search time in
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, the enhancement of child daycare
in
I point out that we have not changed the
regulations with the basic daycare that is provided. We have increased the licensed spaces quite
dramatically and have had to make some adjustments in this current budget year,
but we will do everything we can to see that those who need to access daycare
will be provided with that service.
Mr. Martindale: Mr. Speaker, the minister is making
adjustments without doing any research or having any data.
Why did the Minister of Family Services do
no research or even contact Canada Employment Centres and ask them how long the
average job search takes? Did the
minister not know that the average duration of unemployment in
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, we have talked about this in the
Estimates process in the last couple of weeks and have an opportunity to do so
again today.
It is incorrect that we have done no
research into this. I have told the
member consistently that our budgeting process starts in the late summer, early
fall, and that the Child Day Care branch of this department has brought forward
a number of statistics where we have had an opportunity to look at the demands
on the system prior to making these decisions.
Sexual
Assaults
Identity
Release
Mr. Paul Edwards (St.
James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister
of Justice.
Last week, a very disturbing case was
raised in this House by my Leader involving a court‑ordered ban on the
publication of any information which might identify a child complainant of
sexual assault, as well as a ban on publication of information which might
reveal the convicted person's profession.
Mr. Speaker, on Friday a news outlet in
the city intentionally chose to breach that court order. The Minister of Justice indicated late Friday
that his staff would be looking at the issue and reviewing the court order
immediately. I believe his statement was
that Monday was another workday and there would be an opportunity to discuss
this more fully Monday.
It is now Monday. Can the minister indicate today whether or
not his office believes the court order was breached by this news outlet on
Friday? If so, is his department intending
to lay charges?
Hon.
James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): The first concern
of this department and this minister is the complainant in this matter and also
the protection of the public. That is
our first concern.
To that end, there will be a meeting
tomorrow between counsel for the Crown and the accused, the Winnipeg Free
Press, the CBC and, because the complainant is of tender years, the Public
Trustee, to review this whole matter related to the confusion created by the
unusual circumstances that arose between what was said in the courtroom, what
appeared on an order and what other people interpreted that order to mean. That matter will also be before the Queen's
Bench tomorrow. Once that day is over,
we can address the issue raised by the honourable member.
I remind him that the first concern is the
protection of the complainant and the public.
Mr. Edwards: Quite so, Mr. Speaker, exactly why the member
for
Mr. Speaker, on the same issue, in the
interim, while this discussion is taking place, will the minister take this
opportunity to have his department communicate with news networks in
Mr. McCrae: I think the news director for the media
outlet involved and the honourable member for St. James may enjoy the luxury of
jumping to the conclusion that certain things are or are not. We do have a justice system whose function it
is to get to the bottom of these things.
We will ensure that this matter is very carefully reviewed.
I remind the honourable member that I
think the protection of the complainant is the first thing we ought to be
concerned about and protection of the public as well.
Criminal
Code of
Review
Mr. Paul Edwards (St.
James): Mr. Speaker, finally for the minister, given
that this case raises the whole issue of exceptions to the normal rule that
everything in court is public, will the minister undertake as part of his work
this week to have his staff review the relevant provisions of the Criminal Code
of
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question.
Hon. James McCrae
(Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I
think the honourable member and his Leader have taken an interest in this case
for obviously all the right reasons. I
appreciate that.
I will take all of the honourable member's
questions into account in the work that is being done on the part of the Crown
this week.
National
Mathematics Assessment Test
Minister's
Review
Mr. John Plohman
(Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, on Friday when I asked the
Minister of Education about the school achievement indicators program for 13‑
and 16‑year‑olds, the minister responded, and I quote: Each province had the opportunity to review
the exam and secondly, we will be able to look at
I want to ask the minister, after having
reviewed the test, does she feel that it accurately reflects the work covered
in
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey
(Minister of Education and Training): Mr.
Speaker, again, in setting up an exam which was acceptable to all provinces
across
Some of the material which is being tested
on the SAIP exam is also covered in courses other than the mathematics courses.
It is covered in areas such as geography and science. Therefore, we believe that
Relevancy
Mr. John Plohman
(Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, is the minister not aware of the
fact that many math concepts being tested of Grade 11s, in the 16‑year‑olds'
test, are not even covered in the
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey
(Minister of Education and Training): As I
said, we are confident in
I did mention there are two other courses
which also teach some of the areas which are being examined which are not
specifically covered in the math test, but which are covered within the math
curriculum, but which are covered within the geography and the science
curriculum.
* (1410)
Mr. Plohman: Many of them are not covered at all, Mr.
Speaker.
Cost to
Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Can the minister please tell this House: How much of taxpayers' money is the minister
spending on a national test, when there is no national curriculum in this
country, and which will have only the effect of demoralizing and frustrating
students and teachers who have not even covered the material? What is she trying to prove with this test?
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey
(Minister of Education and Training): Mr.
Speaker, it seems that member is not in support of this assessment process, is
not in support of what Manitobans have been asking for, and that is the issue
of accountability.
Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House
are in support of accountability, and therefore we worked very hard over the
last three years to see that
Antiracism
Strategy
Employer
Awareness Pamphlet
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis
(
What we would much rather have is a
concerted plan of action to combat racism from this government‑‑something
that was recommended two and a half years ago by the Manitoba Intercultural
Council, which tabled a very substantive report, but instead of acting on this
report, this government has allowed it to gather dust and cobwebs.
I want to ask the Minister responsible for
Multiculturalism about several of those recommendations. Let me begin with the recommendation on an
employment awareness pamphlet. I would
like to ask the minister if she has begun to take steps to implement the
recommendation made two and a half years ago, for an employer awareness
pamphlet outlining the benefits and advantages to our community of utilizing
all the valuable human resources in our province.
Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson
(Minister responsible for Multiculturalism):
Mr. Speaker, indeed, we have accomplished much in the area of trying to
promote racial harmony as a government.
Our Multiculturalism Act that was unanimously supported in this House
last year did talk about racial harmony.
We have hired within government an
antiracism co‑ordinator, an antiracism outreach officer. We had a joint project with the Manitoba
Federation of Labour a couple of years ago, where our staff was seconded to
work with them so that we could look at‑‑I mean, the Federation of
Labour was very interested in the workplace, in accomplishing a more positive
and tolerant workforce.
We were concerned within government, too,
that we establish some new programming.
As a result of that, there were several modules that were
developed. They have been piloted within
my department in government. We have
talked about a more respectful workplace.
Those modules that were successfully piloted within my department have
been shared throughout the civil service now so that we can deal with the issue
of racial harmony.
MLA
Cross-Cultural Training
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis
(
Let me ask her about another
recommendation then, since I have not seen any evidence of this. When will the government of
Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson
(Minister responsible for Multiculturalism):
Mr. Speaker, I would think that we are attempting to deal within
government, and I believe that the Manitoba Federation of Labour is dealing
very proactively throughout the community also.
This is a partnership, and there is not government alone or any one
segment of society that can deal with the issue of racism. It must include and involve every member,
every Manitoban, including members of the opposition.
Mr. Speaker, as a matter of fact, the
Manitoba Intercultural Council last year did put on a one‑day seminar
that looked at cross‑cultural sensitivity, and I think many members of
the Legislature did attend.
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: If the minister would like us to organize
that seminar, we would certainly be happy to.
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I would like to remind the honourable member,
this is not a time for debate. The
honourable member for
Education
System
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis
(
An Honourable Member: Every.
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Every teacher in
Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson
(Minister responsible for Multiculturalism):
Mr. Speaker, indeed, my colleague the Minister of Education and Training
(Mrs. Vodrey) last year did announce our multicultural education policy that
does deal with multiculturalism and all the different components within the
education system.
I note that through our Bridging Cultures
Program that was implemented by this government back in 1991, there are
partnerships within the community between the RCMP, between different school
divisions and different schools, that do promote the understanding of racial
harmony.
There have been two very successful events
held in the week of International Day for the Elimination of Racial
Discrimination whereby different schools in conjunction with the community have
participated in very positive programs that deal with racism and trying to
promote racial harmony.
Grain
Transportation
Method of
Payment
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (
I want to ask the Minister of
Agriculture: When is he going to start
making strong representation for
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her
question. Move right along.
Hon. Glen Findlay
(Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, the
member obviously has not been paying attention to what has been going on over
the last five years. It was an issue
that has been on the agenda and been talked about many times at federal‑provincial
meetings, at western ministers' meetings.
Then the member also has been told in the
past that an advisory council has been set up to advise me and the government
on how to address this issue. That group
has been in place since 1989, met many times, done four studies, most of which
have been released to the citizens of the
The representation on the advisory council
is from Manitoba Pool, UGG, UMM and Keystone Agricultural Producers.
Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the minister then,
what is his proposal for
Mr. Findlay:: Mr. Speaker, the process used by the advisory
council, on recommendations from me, is to look at the issue to be sure that
the interests of
Beekeepers
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (
I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture
to tell us whether he is standing with the bee producers on this one or is he
caving in to Charlie Mayer, and are those bees going to come into
Hon. Glen Findlay
(Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, the
Varroa mite has been a real problem. It
has spread throughout the
My representation, on behalf of beekeepers
of
* (1420)
Construction
Industry
Wage
Freeze
Ms. Jean Friesen
(Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, in July 1992, the Greater
Winnipeg Building Construction Wages Board met, as they are required to by law,
to prepare construction wage schedules. Subsequent public hearings called for
those wage increases to be implemented.
Could the Minister of Labour tell us why
he has ignored those recommendations and those public hearings and has chosen,
unilaterally, to freeze the wage level in that industry?
Hon. Darren Praznik
(Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I would advise the honourable
member to look at the statute because she has implied in her question the fact
that when the wage boards make a recommendation, that it should automatically
become law. They make in fact a recommendation.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, could the minister then make a
commitment to review his decision not to accept that recommendation and to
unilaterally freeze construction wages in view of the fact that the aims of
this act are to create a level playing field in the industry bidding?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, no decision has been made to not
accept those recommendations.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, then will the minister kindly
tell us when he will make that decision?
Mr. Praznik: In due course.
Solvent
Abuse
Legislation
Proclamation
Mr. George Hickes (Point
Since that time, this government has
refused to proclaim that legislation or to take any real action on this devastating
problem. In the meantime, there have
been dozens of tragic deaths as a result of solvent abuse. This weekend, two men from Shamattawa died.
My question is to the Minister of
Justice. Why has he refused to take
action to amend the private members' bill or bring in government legislation
before now? How can he justify having
waited for three years while the number of deaths has increased?
Hon. James McCrae
(Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I
am sure the honourable member was here earlier today, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps he was busy with other things. The bill was introduced for first reading
just a little while ago.
Solvent
Abuse
Northern
Treatment Centre
Mr. George Hickes (Point
Douglas): The deaths this weekend have sparked calls for
a northern treatment facility to deal with the growing problem of sniffing in
northern and remote communities.
Will the Minister of Health support MKO in
their lobbying efforts to establish a treatment centre in the North to assist
the more than 2,200 solvent abusers in the region?
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I know that those jurisdictions
have been in discussions for a number of years with the federal government on a
treatment centre. I think that, given
the tenor of shift in approach to resolving problems, all of us have an
obligation to work on prevention and education and avoid the problems ahead of
the difficulty rather than seeking investment in treatment after the fact, Sir.
Farmers
Alfalfa Products
Status
Report
Mr. John Plohman
(Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister
of Industry, Trade and Tourism today whether he can give us an update on the
current situation with the Dauphin alfalfa plant, as I asked the Premier (Mr.
Filmon) last week and the minister previously about the many concerns in the
Parkland region, the Dauphin area, about the major employer, some 27 jobs over
the last 20 years.
This is a crisis for that plant at this
particular time in the short term. I am
asking the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism whether he can report any
additional developments on that issue to the House today.
Hon. Eric Stefanson
(Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): When officials from our government met
with the alfalfa producers some 10 days ago, two weeks ago, one of the
undertakings was that they are developing a business plan in conjunction with
the Federal Business Development Bank.
That business plan is expected this week.
Government
Assistance
Mr. John Plohman
(Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, the minister may be aware that
Does this in any way serve as a precedent
for the minister to realize that he has to provide some assistance and support
to initiating such a major priority area as diversification in agriculture?
Hon. Eric Stefanson
(Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): As I indicated, when asked the question
several weeks ago by the honourable member for Dauphin, the concern is the long‑term
viability. That was part of the reason
that we have been supportive of the producers working with the Federal Business
Development Bank to develop a business plan and a long‑term plan.
They are doing just that. We expect to receive that plan this
particular week, Mr. Speaker, and we will review it at that point in time. As the Premier (Mr. Filmon) indicated when
answering a question a week or 10 days ago, clearly that is the most
fundamental issue here: the long‑term
viability. We are waiting to see what
they come forward with from this business plan.
We are not interested in something that is
short term. We do not normally provide working
capital; that is the case with most of the programs of government, whether it
has been this government or previous governments. We do not have working‑capital support
programs.
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The time for Oral Questions has expired.
NONPOLITICAL
STATEMENTS
Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Gimli have
leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed]
Excuse me one moment. Did Hansard pick that up, by the way? We are
having a little bit of difficulty with Hansard at this point in time. Okay, that is it. The honourable member for Gimli, now we are
okay.
Mr. Edward Helwer
(Gimli): Mr. Speaker, today, I would like to pay
tribute to an excellent facility in the Gimli constituency that was opened this
past weekend. The Oak Hammock Marsh
Conservation Centre was officially opened as part of the 1st Annual Waterfowl
Festival. The festival offered family
events and displays at the marsh, as well as in Stonewall and in Selkirk.
As part of the ceremonies at the marsh,
300 Boy Scouts and Girl Guides planted 10,000 trees and shrubs. Thousands of people turned out for the
festival. I was there, as was the
Honourable Harry Enns the Minister of Natural Resources, and a number of other
MLAs. By all accounts, the festival was
a huge success and, hopefully, will be held every year for many years to come.
Of course, the highlight was the official
opening of the Conservation Centre which is a joint venture between the
Mr. Speaker, Oak Hammock Marsh with its 28
kilometres of hiking trails has always been a beautiful location for people to
enjoy
The Oak Hammock Marsh Interpretive Centre
is a 2,100 square metre wetland wonderland which provides a learning experience
surrounded by nature. Inside the
Interpretive Centre, there are aquariums full of plants, fish and other
interesting exhibits. As well, there is a remote controlled camera that lets
visitors zoom in on the birds way out in the marsh. The facility also features exhibit halls, a
theatre, a seminar room, a laboratory, display courtyard, craft area, art
shows, artifacts and, of course, the marsh just outside. The Oak Hammock Marsh Conservation Centre
also houses the national offices of Ducks Unlimited
There is no doubt, Mr. Speaker, the
Conservation Centre is an impressive facility that will make a person's visit
to the marsh fun and educational. I ask
all members of this House to join me in recognizing Oak Hammock Marsh, a fine
* * *
Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for
* (1430)
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis
(
The official City of
Mr. Speaker, I would like to close my
remarks by citing briefly from a poem written by Jen Winterburn from
I would like to congratulate all students
who have participated in Arbor Day, and particularly those at
ORDERS OF
THE DAY
Hon. Darren Praznik
(Deputy Government House Leader): Mr.
Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Attorney General (Mr. McCrae), that
Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a
committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.
Motion agreed to, and the House resolved
itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty
with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for
the Department of Family Services; and the honourable member for
* (1440)
COMMITTEE
OF SUPPLY
(Concurrent
Sections)
FAMILY
SERVICES
Mr. Deputy Chairperson
(Marcel Laurendeau): Good afternoon. Will the Committee of Supply
please come to order.
This afternoon, this section of the
Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will resume consideration of the
Estimates of Family Services.
When the committee last sat it had been
considering item 4.(a) on page 57 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass?
Mr. Doug Martindale
(Burrows): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would like to refer
to a news release that the minister put out on November 5, 1992, entitled: Pilot Project to Assist Manitobans with
Disabilities. The main announcement that
was made was the announcement of a $2.4‑million two‑year pilot
project to assist Manitobans with disabilities to live more independently in
the community.
I would like to ask the minister, what has
happened to this pilot project since November 5?
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer
(Minister of Family Services): Well, it
is moving a little slower than we anticipated, but our objectives remain the
same. We want to move some of the
individuals who are in the various institutions and perhaps located elsewhere
into the community. A lot of work went
into this. We are moving slowly but
carefully ahead with it.
Mr. Martindale: Has there been a reduction in the budget and,
if so, by how much?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The budget is going to be cut across a couple
of budget years. Our intention is to be
sure that we establish a process that is acceptable, and we have selected some
individuals that are going to be participating in the program. At this time, I am told there are 10 that
have been selected so far. Our objective
was to have a total of 25 who were participating. Again, we are moving
cautiously, but we are proceeding with it.
Mr. Martindale: I understand the budget has been reduced from
$2.4 million to $1.1 million. Is that
the case for this year, or is it some other figure?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I would point out that the $2.4 million was
over two years.
Mr. Martindale: Would it be correct to say that the 10
individuals will be assisted to live independently in the first year?
Mr. Gilleshammer: These are the first 10 that have been
selected. As we move to implementing the
program, it is I think a fair assumption that they will be the ones that will
be included.
Mr. Martindale: The additional 15 individuals, when will they
be assisted to live independently?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I think it is fair to say, some work is being
done at this time in a number of areas of the initiative. Part of the initiative is to identify others
who would be sound choices in implementing this.
Mr. Martindale: The additional 15 individuals have not been
chosen yet, is that correct?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am saying it is in process.
Mr. Martindale: What has happened to the Working Group on
Community Living? Are they still meeting
or are they disbanded?
Mr. Gilleshammer: That is the group that recommended the pilot.
They have now completed their work. Some
of those individuals are part of the Provincial Management Committee that is
overseeing this project.
Mr. Martindale: What is the status of the volunteer community
support teams? Are they still in place,
and are they working with individuals to help with the transition and, I
assume, to provide support in the community?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, that is part of a larger initiative, and
that, too, is in process.
Mr. Martindale: The news release refers to a public awareness
campaign. Can the minister tell us what
is happening by way of public awareness?
Mr. Gilleshammer: That is a portion of the initiative that will
be, I think, part of the latter stages of this initiative.
Mr. Martindale: What will the public awareness campaign
consist of? Will it be a brochure, or
does the minister have something else planned?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The public awareness campaign, obviously, is,
as it states, to inform the public of the circumstances of individuals who are
part of this target group but also part of this larger community. I think that the obvious things that you do
in public awareness is things like brochures, but I think also that members of
our department have a role to play in disseminating information to the broader
community. I would say to the member
that part of the communications we have had in doing this project and part of
the communications that we have had in doing the lead‑up to the
legislation is part and parcel of this communication. I think it has been very effective, from the
letters that I have received from members of this community. There is a greater
awareness.
Obviously, there are ways of doing that
through newspaper articles, through the school system, through some of the
service clubs, through some of the advocacy groups that exist, and I think that
the advocacy groups who are, for the most part, apart from government have done
a great job in keeping this issue alive in the communities, whether it is targeted
through specific initiatives or in some cases it is through their fund raising.
So this is an ongoing issue that is before the department, and it was raised as
part of this initiative. I can say that
it is on our minds as we work towards implementing.
Mr. Martindale: The news release refers to consultation with
the disabled community. Can the minister
tell us what kinds of consultation happened in the past in developing this
pilot project, and are consultations still ongoing?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The answer is yes, as we meet with the
various groups. Maybe if I told the
member a little bit about the Provincial Management Committee, it is comprised
of representatives of the community.
Maybe I could even give you the names of the people on this particular
Provincial Management Committee. Vicki
Burns, who was part of The Mental Health Act review, who is part of the
Manitoba Coalition of Service Providers, and who has worked with the Community
Living community, is one of the members.
Mr. Allan Simpson, who was on the working group and is part of the
Independent Living Resource Centre, is another one.
Michael Hill from the business community
was on the working group on Community Living.
Arlene Gibson is from the rural Community Living resources and was part
of the working group. Dale Kendel is with the Association for Community Living,
and Jake Dyck is part of the Abilities Network.
Tannis Mindell is with our department; as well, Kim Sharman, Ian Lambert
and Allan Hansen, also departmental people, are part of this Provincial
Management Committee, and are the team that has been meeting on this
initiative.
Mr. Martindale: The news release refers to new initiatives,
including follow‑up services such as job coaching, counselling and
worksite supports, to help individuals with disabilities maintain competitive
jobs. Has this been implemented or are
you still working on it?
Mr. Gilleshammer: We do this through some of the external
agencies that we fund. Of course, that
is very dependent on the clientele that they are working with, but I can tell
you that there are a number of groups who are currently placing individuals in
the workplace. Some of them require
almost full‑time, one‑to‑one supervision; others have become
more independent. This is part of the
ongoing work and the ongoing relationship between this branch of the department
and a number of the community groups.
Mr. Martindale: The news release also refers to a project
using CareerStart and on‑site training and support to help 40 high school
students. Has there been any change in
that due to this year's budget?
Mr. Gilleshammer: We are proceeding with that.
Mr. Martindale: So 40 high school students will be assisted?
Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct.
* (1450)
Mr. Martindale: What is in place after students
graduate? For example, what has happened
to last year's graduates, and what will happen to this year's graduates? Do they receive assistance into the job
market?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I presume you are talking about graduates
from the public school system.
Mr. Martindale: Yes, I assume it means students who are
already integrated in the public school system.
Mr. Gilleshammer: We have follow‑up services that we
provide through some of our external agencies such as Sturgeon Creek and
Premier Personnel. We have a limited
ability to continue to work with a number of these graduates. There is a turnover which provides some
openings for additional students to access programming, and there are times
when some of these graduates have to go on a waiting list prior to accessing
programs.
Mr. Martindale: How many students will be graduating at the
end of this school term in June '93?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told it will be in the area of 50.
Mr. Martindale: What is in place to assist them to get into
the job market at the end of June?
Mr. Gilleshammer: We have staff within the department that are
involved in some transition planning.
Some of them will be going into day programs, and our staff work with
those individuals as resources allow to have them become part of the
community. You can appreciate that all
these 50 are individuals and some will have the capacity to access programming
better than others. I think it is fair to
say that we do not have the resources or the staff to accommodate everybody.
Mr. Martindale: When will legislation respecting vulnerable
persons‑‑I guess it will become The Vulnerable Persons and
Consequential Amendments Act‑‑be introduced?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am confident that we will be doing that
this week.
Mr. Martindale: There are further items in this news release
that have dollar amounts attached to them, so I would like to know if those
have changed due to this budget. It says
additional funding of $341,600 for Children's Special Services this year to
meet demand. Has that figure changed as
a result of the budget?
Mr. Gilleshammer: That was part of last year's budget that was
in place.
Mr. Martindale: What is happening to that budget item in this
year's budget?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am informed that an additional $158,000 is
budgeted in this current budget that we are debating today.
Mr. Martindale: Will the additional funds be used to hire
more staff to provide more service, or what is the purpose of the additional
funding? I am pleased to see that it is
up, and I am just curious to know what it will be spent on.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Most of that funding will be to accommodate
our provincial caseload, which is estimated to be around 1,545 children, and we
anticipate with that budget we will no longer have a waiting list in Children's
Special Services.
Mrs. Sharon Carstairs
(Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.
Deputy Chairperson, in terms of the clients that are covered here in Community
Living and Vocational Rehabilitation Programs, I understand that for the most
part they remain within the school system until they are 18, or is it now 21?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Twenty‑one.
Mrs. Carstairs: So they remain there until 21, and then they
go to a variety of workshop experiences or nonworkshop if they can find regular
employment. How many of these
individuals find no program in any given year?
Do you have numbers on that?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I can indicate the number of individuals
that are being accommodated in day services as of March 11 of this year. The total that we are accommodating is
1,757. These are broken down on a
regional basis, with almost 700 of them in
Mrs. Carstairs: I thank the minister for that information,
but that was not really my question.
I am frequently contacted, and I know the
department is, by individuals who say their young people have left school and
there is not a program. This never
happens when they are in a group home situation because they have to have a day
program, but it does happen for those individuals who live at home.
Does the minister have any number on how
many of them are living at home without any form of day program?
Mr. Gilleshammer: No, we do not have a number on those that
return home and do not access a day program.
(Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy
Chairperson, in the Chair)
In some cases the alternative, of course,
as you have indicated, is not to access a group home living accommodation, but
they live with their parents. We
accommodate many of the ones who are able to go into a job placement. We also do have a waiting list of people we
have not been able to accommodate at this time, but there are some who, after
they finish their, let us say, formal education, do remain at home with family.
Mrs. Carstairs: Can the minister tell me how many people are
on that waiting list at the present time?
Mr. Gilleshammer: We have waiting lists for day programming or
day services, and there are just over 200 people who are on that waiting list
at this time.
Mrs. Carstairs: Is it not, to the minister, somewhat unfair
that if a family has, for whatever reason, found it impossible for them to keep
their family member within the family environment and have moved them into a
group home or alternate facility, and they are guaranteed a day program, but a
family that keeps that person within the family unit cannot be guaranteed a day
program?
I mean, is that not inequitable and does
not it lead to more and more of them wanting to put their people into other
living accommodations because they fear the burden will be just too excessive
once these young people are no longer in school at least six or seven hours a
day?
* (1500)
Mr. Gilleshammer: This is an area of our department where we do
not have as many resources as we require to accommodate all of the individuals
who are looking for facilities, whether it is for community residences or for
day programs. We are often faced with
the prospect that the community itself comes forward with the funding for those
residences. Often it is parental
involvement that creates those residences and the funding which comes from
service clubs, which comes from the Manitoba Marathon and other fund raising,
that allows those individuals to access both the day program and the community
residence.
We in the department have incrementally
tried to provide more resources every year.
Yet we are still faced there with a waiting list. So I think what the member is saying is that
where the family and the community have gone ahead and created these
residences, they are providing housing and programming for their family ahead
of others who are in the community, and that is correct.
Mrs. Carstairs: It is not quite a simple as that, because‑‑and
I am sure the minister has heard the same scenario, but I have had a number of
people in a number of different communities that have come forward and said,
the reality is that my son or daughter is shortchanged because I keep him or
her at home. I pay all of the living
accommodations and I have them live with me, but if I turned them out in the
street tomorrow, the government would have to find them a group home and the
government would have to provide for a day program.
It is not a lot of incentive, it seems to
me, to want to keep these people within your home situation. I can understand their frustration. They say, what can you do? You say, well, you know go on the waiting
list and apply and hope that the program turns up.
I had one couple that said to me
literally, two weeks ago, we are going to put the young person out on the
street because it seems to be a better alternative for him.
Mr. Gilleshammer: There certainly is divergent thinking. I have talked to people such as the ones you
reference and also talked to others who are so committed to maintaining the
family unit and so committed to keeping their child at home and really do not
ask a lot from society or a lot from government, so we have, I guess, quite a
variety of scenarios. But you are
absolutely right, there is that group as part of that spectrum who say, we know
we can force this issue simply by turning the child or the young person over to
the state, and then that programming and accommodation will be taken care of.
Until we have all of the resources that we
need to provide a variety of services for these individuals, we try to have
that balance where we can work with families who want to maintain that
child. Some of them are very fiercely
independent, saying, this is our responsibility, and the spectrum goes right
over to the scenario that you described, where they know they can force their
hand. As a department, we try to provide
that balance where we are providing some level of service to all of these people,
and trying to provide the additional apartment living, the additional respite,
the additional day programming, transportation and what have you.
I look forward to the day when we have
those resources where we can truly accommodate everyone. We have increased our budget lines here over
the last number of budgets, but we still are not near the point where we can
accommodate everybody.
Mrs. Carstairs: Does the minister have the external agencies
listing for us today?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am aware that the member requested this the
last day, and I would like to table the grants list at this time.
Mrs. Carstairs: The Province of Quebec, not this last budget
but the previous budget‑‑and it has not been changed since then,
introduced a tax‑credit system for those who had seniors living within
their homes.
Has the department looked at that, not
specifically with regard to seniors, since this is not their responsibility,
but has there been any evaluation done about a similar tax‑credit system
for someone living within the home that would be considered special needs?
Mr. Gilleshammer: We as a department have not specifically
looked at that, although we do carry on discussions with that branch of the
Finance department on a regular basis.
Again, I think I said this in reference to
another area of the department that‑‑and it was when we were
talking about the‑‑I am just searching for the word here‑‑guaranteed
income, that there are so many tax transfers that are within government, within
the departments of finance, that we would have no difficulty recommending a
total sort of rationalization and review of what the federal government and
provincial governments do in that area.
I would, again, take that as information
and something that we can certainly take a look at within this department. Because I think if there is any incentive at
all for family units to remain together, and to have family units have that
ability to participate more and more in the day programming, the housing, the
respite, that this is a direction we want to move.
Mrs. Carstairs: I thank the minister, and that is all I
really wanted him to take it as, as information, because I think it might be a
way of freeing up some cash within the family unit, that they may even be able to
buy additional programming with that freed‑up cash for this particular
individual within their family unit.
* (1510)
Mr. Gilleshammer: I will just add a comment to that. Many of the families that I have been
familiar with in my communities in western
Mrs. Carstairs: I am prepared to move into the
subappropriations of this unless the other critic has some questions.
Mr. Martindale: Well, I would prefer to ask more questions
here, because I am not sure what pages my questions are appropriate on, if that
is okay with the minister.
Mr. Gilleshammer: You just want to have a general discussion
and pass the lines afterwards?
Mr. Martindale: Well, most of my questions here, I think, have
to do with Rehab and Community Living, so I guess we could go on to 4.(b).
The Acting Deputy
Chairperson (Mr. Reimer): 4. Rehabilitation,
Community Living and Day Care (a) Administration (1) Salaries $614,300‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $232,000‑‑pass.
Item 4.(b)(1) Adult Services (a) Salaries
$1,110,600.
Mr. Martindale: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I would like
to go back and ask a couple more questions on areas that I have already talked
about, but I think it will be fairly brief.
Could you tell us the anticipated
proclamation date for The Vulnerable Persons Act?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I do not think I can give you an answer to
that. I have indicated that our
intention is to introduce it this week.
Again, I am anticipating that with the support of the critics and after
debate, we will pass it in June. I would
think that in the fall, we have to meet some more with the community and
internally. There are decisions to be
made afterwards. I am sure that will
take us into the year 1994. I guess my
experience with the Children's Advocate is that it takes some process time and
some discussion time, so it may not be dissimilar to that time line.
Mr. Martindale: Does the minister have any plans to extend
legislation to include other groups who are vulnerable?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, that is sort of a debate, I guess, that
has not been held yet. I am aware that
outside of the Association for Community Living, it is possible to have a much
broader definition of vulnerable people.
That can be broken into a number of subgroups, I suppose, and various
definitions put to it. We were, in
framing this legislation, very targeted to the group that came under the
umbrella of The Mental Health Act, Part II, and all of our efforts have been
channelled in that direction to deal with that particular target group.
I would say that the member is asking a
question that we will have to deal with in our next mandate. This legislation has to be passed and
proclaimed. We need to gain some
experience in putting this legislation to work.
I think there will be time after that where that debate on the expansion
of the definition of vulnerable people may be looked at as we get into the
1990s a little further.
Mr. Martindale: I certainly acknowledge that it takes time to
do these things, and if you are going to do them you should do them right. I think the Children's Advocate bill is a
good example of that, of how the minister did not do it right the first time
and now is running into problems.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, the member is part of a caucus that was
in government most of the 1980s when this was first brought up, in 1982, and
did absolutely nothing. I would not sit
there and take much glee in saying this was legislation that was
inadequate. This was legislation that
the previous government completely ignored and had been approached on a number
of occasions to do that. I hesitate to
get into that debate, but the member brought it up.
We will proceed with the legislation on
The Vulnerable Persons Act in a planned and orderly way and, I think, very
importantly gain some experience. This
is legislation that, in my mind, is good legislation, landmark legislation that
other jurisdictions are going to look at.
Maybe in practice there will be need to make amendments and changes, but
we are committed to bringing it in and committed to bringing it into force in
due course.
Mr. Martindale: I am pleased to hear that The Vulnerable
Persons Act will proceed in a planned and orderly way. As far as I know, there has been good
consultation with people in the community.
I would like to go back briefly to the
Pilot Project to Assist Manitobans with Disabilities. The original announcement said 25 individuals
would be chosen. Could the minister tell
us if there were more than 25 people who applied or expressed an interest or a
need and wanted to be part of the demonstration project?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Probably a different way of phrasing that is,
we looked at a broader group than that, some of which are housed within our
institutions, others are in the community.
The project was going to be limited to 25 individuals.
We did have a group at MDC in
Mr. Martindale: If 140 applications were received and
hopefully eventually 25 will be accommodated, what has happened to the other
people and how does the department intend to respond to their needs?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, their needs will continue to be looked
after within the family or within the housing arrangements that they are
currently a part of. The largest
component of those who are living in institutions are at MDC, where we have in
excess of 500‑‑it is around 574 or 575 clients. We still have 230‑some at St. Amant and
around 70 at Pelican Lake Training Centre.
Others are living in group homes.
We continue to monitor the individual cases and do case planning with
and for them. The 25 that we are
targeting for this particular initiative come from that particular backdrop.
Mr. Martindale: Are there individual plans and does
individual planning take place for individuals who live with the mentally
handicapped?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, for the majority of these clients there
are individual plans in place, and there is planning taking place in a larger
sense with the individuals who come under the umbrella of this part of the
department.
Mr. Martindale: Who is usually involved in the formulation of
a plan for an individual?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, it depends on the geographic area that
we are talking about and depends on the circumstances of the individual. If it is someone who is living at home, we
try to involve the family and do involve the family, also the family service
worker, and to as great a degree as we can, we would involve the individual.
Mr. Martindale: How is the individual part of the plan? Are they consulted, or do they have some
control or direct say in the plan?
Mr. Gilleshammer: This very much is dependent on the
individual, as you can appreciate. If
you have ever had the opportunity to tour MDC or Pelican Lake Training Centre
or St. Amant, you will realize that there is a range of individuals who are in
those settings and in some cases are quite capable of being part of the plan.
Unfortunately, there are others where the
family, of course, must represent them, and we do have Family Services workers
who are involved. I think it is, again,
an area, with the legislation that is coming forward, that we want to put more
responsibility on the department in some cases to ensure that plans are up to
date. In all cases where the individual
can be involved, where the family can be involved, most certainly they are a
big part of it.
* (1520)
Mr. Martindale: It seems to me that there may be a difference
between having a plan and having the resources to implement the plan. Who decides or who allocates the resources to
implement a plan? Also, I would hope
that people are not encouraged to make a plan and then find afterwards that the
resources are not available, so that people's expectations are not being raised
and then people are being disappointed because the resources are not available
to implement a plan.
Mr. Gilleshammer: I think what the member is saying is that a
plan should be realistic, and I wholeheartedly agree. I think that the importance of involving the
individual and family, professional staff is to come forward with a realistic
plan. That is a care plan in some cases, is a medical plan, is an activity
plan, is a long‑range plan. You
can appreciate that, in this area of the department, resources are definitely
an issue. As I indicated to the Leader of the Liberal Party, resources have not
kept up with demand. We have not been
able to access the resources that would allow us to maximize the possibilities
for individuals.
In some cases, the family is still the
primary caregiver and still is very involved in the planning for the
individual. So there are, I think, very
delicate issues that have to be addressed, and, for sure, resources continue to
be an issue in providing as much appropriate planning and programming as we
want to for these individuals.
There is such a wide spectrum of people
who access services from government or government agencies in this area that
the planning component of it is becoming more and more critical in being able
to have these people achieve a lifestyle that is satisfactory to them.
Mr. Martindale: I can appreciate what the minister is
saying. I have been to St. Amant Centre
twice. I can also appreciate, as the
minister says, that there are delicate issues and that planning needs to be
appropriate, which leads to the question: How are staff trained to develop
individual plans, not just department staff but also agencies? Is there training that goes along to assist
in the appropriate development of plans?
Mr. Gilleshammer: For sure there is, and the member can
recognize the very broad spectrum of abilities that are required from those
that are in an institution like St. Amant.
We have just participated in a review of St. Amant, which, I think, has
been well received by the board and the staff there, where they need skills and
training that certainly are not required at the Pelican Lake Training Centre.
We do have a budgeted amount of $254,000
to be spent on staff development and training, but you can appreciate that
within those institutions, training and in‑servicing is an ongoing thing
as there are changing needs and demands and changing staff. We also have to be sure that our own staff,
who work in our regional offices and who work in the whole area of community
living, are kept as current as possible in being able to provide the type of
training and expertise that is required.
So training for both government and nongovernment staff is an important
component and an important issue in this area of the department.
Mr. Martindale: So the $254,000 that the minister referred to
includes government and nongovernment.
Does it include boards and parents as well?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, part of the training is for board
development. I just, in my previous
answer, indicated that we did go through a very intensive review with the St.
Amant Centre to look at their operation, which is unique. In many ways it appears more like a hospital
than it does a developmental centre. I
have a list here of, I would think, 20 or 30 programs that we fund from that
particular budget line. Probably you do
not want me to read through it, but it does involve government and
nongovernment agencies, and there is quite a variety of issues that is dealt
with here in terms of their training activities.
Mr. Martindale: Perhaps the minister could share that list
with both critics, if possible.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, we can make copies of that for you.
Mr. Martindale: I would like to thank the minister for that.
Could you tell us a few more of the
specifics of the training? Who conducts
the training? Is the money given to the
boards to conduct their own training?
Who is involved, and what sort of expectations, what kind of outcomes,
are expected or anticipated?
Mr. Gilleshammer: For the most part, we contract with agencies,
and they in turn will bring in experts in the field. Maybe I will just read a couple. It might make more sense to you.
We helped to sponsor The Abilities Network
conference. We participated financially
in some behaviour intervention training.
We participated with some money in communications training, and if you
have been to St. Amant or to MDC, you will recognize that communications takes
place in a variety of ways.
We gave some grant money for some first
aid in cardio‑pulmonary resuscitation training. We gave a grant to a course called Gentle
Teaching, which might be of benefit not only to service providers in this area,
but maybe in a number of areas. We spent
some money on a number of publications.
We provided some residential care provider training. We helped to fund the St. Amant conference. We have provided money for transitional
planning. So there is a broad spectrum
of training, and a lot of it is contracted out to people who provide that
particular service and expertise.
(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)
* (1530)
Mr. Martindale: Does the Department of Family Services plan
or support training for parents who have a son or daughter who live with a
mental handicap?
Mr. Gilleshammer: To a degree, the training, I would say, comes
from the Family Services worker who will work with the client and the family to
better understand some of the issues that are coming forward, but as for paying
for formalized courses, I do not think we do that.
Mr. Martindale: Does the minister think this is something that
is important and that perhaps it should take place in a more formalized way?
The answer the minister gave suggests that
it is really happening on a one‑to‑one basis from individual staff
members who relate to a family. Does the
minister think there might be a merit in getting groups of parents together and
allocating some money for training of parents in group settings, since this
kind of training is available to organizations and boards in other settings?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I know that parents do get together as they
have common issues surrounding the care that they are giving. We provide as much advice and support as we
can through our workers, but I guess the larger question the member is asking
is, if you had more dollars within this branch, where would you spend it?
There are many places that we would look
to spending additional dollars. If you
ask the community, if they happen to be looking after their own individual
family member, it might be respite that they want. For others, it may be training. Day programming is a big, big issue as
children come out of the public school system, where they have started perhaps
at age five or six and remain to age 21.
There needs to be a lot of work done with
particular parents on the expectations that they have. You have probably talked to some of those
parents, as I have, and they talk about the tremendous education that their son
or daughter got at that institution, that high school. If you say, well, what is their reading
level? They will say, well, they cannot
really read. You say, what is their ability to do computations and some of the
critical thinking? Well, that is not
what their education was all about. So,
if you get that understanding, then you can better understand the type of work
experience that they could go into.
I know that I had the chance to go to the
Sturgeon Creek Enterprises and look at some of the training they were doing and
then we went to a job site at The Keg and watched one of the individuals
working there. I mean it was a
tremendous feeling to see the job that they have done where there is still some
support from the agency, but the individual is working and his work is
valued. So there are many areas that we
could spend that next dollar within this branch of Family Services.
Mr. Martindale: What are the department's plans to increase
housing options for people with a mental handicap?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I can say to the member that we have
had some gradual increases in independent living, and of course many of these
individuals are accessing housing that is part of the Housing Department
responsibility. So there is a certain
amount of independent living that does take place, and it is dependent on the
abilities of the client as much as the availability of space. I can tell you that in the last number of
budgets we have increased the community residences, an increase in space of
about 50 beds from '88‑89; that supervised apartment living has increased
by 97 spaces; respite‑‑we have got support there for another 131 more
individuals. So there have been sort of
incremental changes in the whole area of housing and independent living.
Mr. Martindale: I understand that the Association for
Community Living applied for 57 units of housing. Can the minister tell us how many units were
actually allocated?
Mr. Gilleshammer: That application was not made to us.
Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell us if there are waiting
lists for the different kinds of housing, for example, group homes, apartments
or foster homes?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I think that I can say the answer is yes.
Mr. Martindale: Can the minister indicate how many people are
on waiting lists and how long it takes to get from a waiting list into an
alternative kind of housing?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I indicated the changes over the last
number of budgets where we have had a slow increase there, but we still have
over a hundred people that are waiting for some sort of appropriate
accommodation that they feel that they would like to access.
Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell us approximately how
long it takes on average for people to find appropriate alternative
accommodation? Maybe an average is not a
very good question, but are we talking months or are we talking years?
Mr. Gilleshammer: There will be some variance in that,
depending on the abilities of the individual and the type of accommodation they
need, but I think it is fair to say that in some cases it would take more than
a year and perhaps a couple of years to find appropriate accommodation. We are addressing this, again, at a rate that
is not quite as quickly as we would like, but we are making some progress.
Mr. Martindale: How many people are currently supported by
the department to live in apartments?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am informed we have 313 in apartments.
Mr. Martindale: Are there variations in rates or is there a
standard funding formula for these individuals?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I am told there is a standardized
funding formula, but some of them would be accessing some additional special
needs funding.
Mr. Martindale: What is the formula that is used?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The actual rates are the responsibility of
Income Security, and again that will depend on individual circumstances. Then there is a service rate whereby
individuals are hired to provide that supervised apartment living training
support. There are a couple of different
rates there depending on their level of experience, but that is between $7 and
$8 an hour.
Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell us how many people live
at the Manitoba Developmental Centre?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I indicated before there is around 575.
If I can maybe get you an updated figure, it is 574.
Mr. Martindale: And how many at
Mr. Gilleshammer: It is around 70.
Mr. Martindale: And
Mr. Gilleshammer: 235.
Mr. Martindale: My understanding of one of the problems of
moving people out of institutional care and into alternative settings is that,
even though it usually costs much more to house people in institutions, the
problem that government has is the hump funding because the cost at the
institution may continue while some people have moved out into other kinds of
accommodation that may well be cheaper.
Is that a problem that you see, or is
there an ongoing effort to move people out of institutions in spite of the hump
funding problem, or is that not a problem at all? Are you only faced with the problems of
limited dollars or moving people out at a steady rate as other alternatives
become available?
* (1540)
Mr. Gilleshammer: There are a number of answers to that, I
suppose, that I could give you. The
largest cost that is related to those institutions is staffing, so if you have
an institution with 574 and it goes down to 570, you do not save any money on
staffing. I would think that in any
institution you do not save much by closing a bed. You save a little more by closing a wing, and
then if you close the whole institution, you are going to have some
savings. Our costs are there to maintain
those institutions.
The other thing is that while some people
do leave the institution for one reason or another, there are others who may be
coming in. It may be deemed to be the
best place for them. It may be, again, a family decision that they feel that
some training or remediation of behaviour or for whatever reason they would
like to have them move into the institution.
There are many factors working both ways for sure.
I remember talking to the minister in
The member has indicated he has been at
St. Amant, and community living for some of them will be difficult to achieve.
You get different philosophies at work too, where you have groups that argue
very vehemently that everyone should live in the community, but at the same
time you also get groups saying, no, this is the best circumstances for my
child or for my dependant. The movement out of these institutions has certainly
slowed.
That was the whole thrust of the working
group on independent living. This pilot
project that we have announced is to take 25 individuals who are in an
institution or in some housing circumstances that the community feels they
could manage independent living. We are
working on that with that particular target group.
Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell us if the department
has plans to phase out institutional living completely, or do you anticipate
that there will always be a minimum or a certain demand for those kinds of
settings?
Mr. Gilleshammer: There are people in this room who have been
working in this area of the department for virtually a lifetime, and you and I
are relatively new at it, but I would say, I sure do not see that, if the goal
was to shut down institutions, happening in the near future or the middle
future. It is something that may well
happen in the course of our lifetime, but there are not the resources, there
are not the placements there at this time.
We will watch with very great interest as
the hospital in
So I have never seen any targets that say
these institutions will be shut down. In
fact, I have heard compelling arguments to say that a place like St. Amant,
which provides such a wonderful service, will be there for a long, long
time. I invite you to make arrangements
to go out to MDC and to see the job that they do there or if you have more
time, go to Ninette and see the centre at
So I think when you look at the
recommendations of this working group, to target 25 people over the next few
years‑‑not all of them coming from the institutions, by the
way. We are a long way from even
beginning to think that we could ever shut down institutions like that.
Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell us how many went into
the
Mr. Gilleshammer: Maybe I could start with MDC. For the year 1992‑1993, we have, as I
indicated, a population of 574, and there were five new admissions, eight
readmissions for a total of 13; there were 18 discharges and 10 deaths of
clients who resided there.
I could go to St. Amant. There were in 1991‑92, so this is two
years ago, but I think, just looking at the figures, it is sort of
typical. There were 17 admissions, six
discharges, and 16 deaths of clients there.
* (1550)
Mr. Martindale: Pelican
Mr. Gilleshammer: We do not have that with us right at the
moment, but we could get that for you.
That is our smallest institution, and there are around 70 people there.
Mr. Martindale: How many incidents of physical and sexual
abuse were reported from MDC, PLTC and St. Amant Centre during 1992‑93?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Maybe I will just introduce Steve Bergson,
who is joining us at the table. He is
the individual who is in charge at MDC.
I am told that there was one reported incident at MDC within the last
year.
Mr. Martindale: Did this incident get reported to the police,
or was it just dealt with internally?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I can indicate that it was referred to
the police authorities, and it is currently before the courts.
Mr. Martindale: So it is going to prosecution then.
Mr. Gilleshammer: It is before the courts, I am told.
Mr. Martindale: I would like to ask some questions about
respite care. I think a good definition
would be that respite support is designed to give short‑term relief to
the primary caregiver such as parents, and be minimally disruptive to an
individual's lifestyle.
Can the minister tell us how many children
and families currently receive respite care?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, in the adult area, there are 625 persons
that will be served in the current budget year.
Mr. Martindale: Would all their requests for respite care be
honoured, or is there not enough money in the budget to find respite care for
all those families requesting it?
Mr. Gilleshammer: We have, I am told, been able to accommodate
all of the requests so far, but I know from past experience over the last
couple of years there does come a time in the year where certain families are
asking for more. We make an effort to
review the respite that they are receiving.
If we can make a determination that perhaps somebody can do with a
little less, then we can accommodate somebody who needs a little more.
This is always sort of a delicate
situation, because once you put a service in place, it is difficult to reduce
it. Yet the department I know, annually,
attempts to share that respite money in the best way they possibly can.
On the children's side, we have a client
load there of 1,545. All of those will
be getting some degree of respite. Some of it is from what we call the family
support fund, the vast majority of it as a matter of fact. A smaller number, 39 of that number, are
deemed to be medically complex, where, as you would conclude, the family
requires more support and more respite.
Mr. Martindale: How does the department determine who should
get less respite?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, that was a comment I made in regard to
the adult services. The department will
have meetings with our professional staff from time to time, present a problem
and attempt to work this through with the families involved to share the
resources that are available and, I think, in many, many cases do it very
admirably and very successfully.
Occasionally, there may be some
disagreement. We have to rely on the
professional abilities and professional judgment of those people that are
involved to bring forward the best information and be part of the decision‑making
team.
Mr. Martindale: Are there waiting lists for respite care for
either adults or children?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that on both sides of the program,
both the adults and the children, we are able to accommodate the demand, to
some degree, that is there. We may not
always be able to accommodate that increased demand without literally asking
somebody else to take a little less. So
we are meeting that demand to a very large degree at this time.
Mr. Martindale: Are respite supports different for parental
families, as opposed to foster families?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, the difference is that with foster
families they are dealing with the agency, and the agency also may have other
resources that they can apply to the situation. So there is a different
relationship where we deal directly with some of the families involved and
where the families are fostering, but that will go through the Child and Family
Services agency.
Mr. Martindale: The minister, when he refers to agency, means
Child and Family Services agencies or the Manitoba Foster Family Association.
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am referring to the Child and Family
Services agencies.
Mr. Martindale: Does it make a difference whether the
department is arranging for respite care or a Child and Family Services
agency? If so, what difference?
(Mr. Harold Neufeld, Acting Deputy
Chairperson, in the Chair)
Mr. Gilleshammer: It may well make a difference in that all
agencies do not make the same decisions.
In a number of cases, agencies have to consider other aspects of the
situation within the family, and that they may have other resources that they
can call on to address the problem.
Mr. Martindale: I would like to move on now to crisis
support. Could the minister tell us what the departmental objectives are for
our crisis intervention services?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I would say that for crisis intervention that
the program description here is that it provides short‑term
individualized services for adults with a mental disability whose continuation
in community placement is in immediate jeopardy. Crisis intervention is
designed to provide immediate support pending the development and
implementation of longer‑term plans.
Mr. Martindale: Are crisis situations involving people with
mental handicaps increasing or decreasing?
What are the trends?
* (1600)
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, the information I have here is that it
is fairly stable, that the actual people served in 1991‑92 was 150. The estimated for the past budget year 1992‑93
is 140. So there is a slight downward
change. I would not call it a trend.
Mr. Martindale: What kinds of facilities or solutions, I guess,
are used to solve crises, problems, and how many people were sent to the
Manitoba Developmental Centre?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The solution will be different in different
cases, as the member can appreciate. If
it can be solved by having the placement continue by putting more staff into it
on a short‑term basis, that is the most common solution. To actually move the individual, if there is
a need to do so, is disruptive, and that would not be the desired way of doing
it.
The question that the member asked about
the number who have been moved to MDC, I am told in the last budget year, there
were eight who were relocated, some on a temporary basis. Eight of them were entered into MDC.
Mr. Martindale: Why are people sent to MDC? Is it because that is the only place where
staff can provide appropriate intervention in a crisis, or is that considered
punishment for individuals, or is there no other alternative?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I would think that if they are sent to MDC,
it is because it is the professional judgment of those people who are involved
that this was the best way to resolve that situation or that crisis at that
time.
Now, the member has asked whether that was
for punishment. That sort of injects a new dimension to the whole question of
crisis intervention. We are dealing here
with vulnerable people, and I do not think I have ever heard that word used as
the need for intervention. The whole
idea in solving the crisis is to find a solution that is best for everybody
concerned.
I know in the school system, one of the
interventions sometimes used is called a time out. I never saw that as a good solution, for the
teacher to kick somebody out of the classroom, never recommended it and never
did it, because you have to solve the problem there. If you have not solved it today, it will be
back tomorrow.
One of the solutions, as I have indicated,
in crisis intervention is to remove the client perhaps for a short term. The
best solution is to add some more resources and solve the problem there. Last year, as I indicated, there were eight
who because of the crisis‑‑and the crisis does not always revolve
around the client. The crisis may be
within the home setting. It may be behavioral or it may be medical.
Sometimes, if that is the professional
decision that is made to perhaps stabilize either the home or the individual or
to give medical treatment or whatever, on eight occasions that was the decision
that was chosen.
Mr. Martindale: I am glad to hear that the minister believes
that being sent to MDC for punishment is not appropriate and not used, and I
hope that it is not threatened either. I
am also happy to hear that as a teacher and principal, he did not believe in
time out for students, having been one of those people who spent a lot of time
out of the classroom myself.
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am dismayed that the member was such a
naughty student. I did not see him as a
rebel at all. I would have thought he
was in the front row and soaking up the knowledge imparted every day and was a
model to all that were participating in the classroom, but perhaps there is a
side of the member we do not know about.
The Acting Deputy
Chairperson (Mr. Neufeld): The Chairperson has
to go with the member for Burrows.
Mr. Martindale: I think the problem was ironically that I
talked too much and now I get paid to talk, so perhaps there is some poetic
justice there‑‑in both my occupations.
Could the minister tell us what training
is made available to staff of the department and staff of boards and agencies
to enable people to better handle and plan for people who are in crisis, I
guess the idea being that prevention is better than having to disrupt people's
lives by putting them in another setting or change staff or whatever needs to
be done.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I can see that the microphone was on in
the caucus room, because the member is going to get that assistance from the
former critic of Family Services, but probably the best example I can give you
is a document that was prepared for board development.
(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)
It was called The Board Development Guide,
and it is one that we have circulated to quite a variety of agencies and, in
fact, have had requests from agencies and groups outside the purview of Family
Services who have seen the development of this book on board development as
just a really good piece of work. I know
that I have talked to members of school boards and credit union boards and
other boards who have asked for copies of this, and I think we have also sent
copies of that Board Development Guide out of the province because it is seen
as a good piece of work. So, in partial answer to your question, that is one of
the things we have done.
I did refer earlier to a number of
activities that we have funded, and I did give you a few examples. There was one initiative that we funded for
$18,000, called Nonviolent Crisis Intervention, and this was seen to be an
appropriate staff training initiative that we were pleased to take part in. As well we employ a behavioural specialist
who provides support and training for our staff as well as agency staff.
Wherever you have the situation where
staff are in charge of and supervising, I think, a group that is called
vulnerable, it is very important, from quite a number of perspectives, that you
do professional training with them. I
refer back to a question the member asked earlier about incidents. I would hope the day will come in
institutions where you get away from any incident, but human behaviour being
what it is, maybe we are dreaming.
* (1610)
We have to continue to keep people on
staff who work on behaviour not only with the clients but with the staff, and
to provide that professional in‑service training to make good staff
better and to make really good staff excellent staff in dealing with vulnerable
people. So there is an ongoing in‑service
training component that takes place within those institutions and with the
staff who work in this particular area.
I would guess there is an ongoing responsibility and job training that
has to take place.
We will continue to support that as part
of our budget initiatives.
Mr. Martindale: How does the department determine who
receives crisis support? Is crisis
support readily available to families?
Mr. Gilleshammer: One of the responsibilities of the department
is to monitor the individuals and families that are part of this branch of the
department. The most common demand for
crisis support is a call from either a caregiver or comments made by a
client. At the same time, there are
others who are involved with a family who perhaps will indicate that additional
care and support are required. The
professional staff or the caseworkers make that decision based on the client's
need and the understanding of those needs that come to them through a variety
of sources, the most common one being the caregivers or the clients themselves.
Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Minister, I got your letter and your
documentation in November of 1992 with respect to the Pilot Project to Assist
Manitobans with Disabilities. In looking
back on past files, I found the vocabulary strikingly similar to the Welcome
Home initiative that was launched back in 1985.
Can the minister tell the committee just
how this initiative differs from the Welcome Home initiative? What components are here that were not in
Welcome Home?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I was not part and parcel of government when
the Welcome Home initiative was announced and put into effect. My understanding
of the program at that time is that a lot of the community supports and the
community placements were not there. As a result, there was difficulty in that
transition stage from the institution to living in the community.
One of the things we did prior to this
pilot project was to work with the community on a working group to idenntify
the needs, to identify the problems and to work with the community. One of the
things that came through loud and clear is that there had to be that support
network out there and that education done out there. That support network could consist of family
members, of friends, of advocates, of volunteers who would assist these
individuals in becoming involved in community life and in developing or
purchasing the supports and services appropriate to, what could be termed,
their unique needs.
This has been a partnership to identify
those, and I guess if the language is similar, perhaps it is because the
objective is similar in taking people out of the institution and putting them into
the community. The working group
encompassed a broad spectrum of people who work in that community, and they
have been very supportive of this initiative and very pleased that we are going
ahead with this pilot project instead of maybe a grander scheme of things where
you make the announcement and move these people without the appropriate work
done before hand.
Mrs. Carstairs: With the greatest respect, what specific
programs are going to be available as a result of this announcement that are
not available now?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think the pilot at
one point is entitled In the Company of Friends, and it is the specific support
network on a case‑by‑case basis, on an individual basis, that we
want to be sure is there for those 25 individuals whether it is here in the
city of Winnipeg or in the rural community.
These people who are being selected are a combination of people who are
in institutions and in the community at the present time. We want to be sure that specific support for
that specific individual is there, and that is not there now.
Mrs. Carstairs: I really do not want to get into an argument
about this but I want to know what that support is going to be. We know of
people who are now in apartments with so‑called friends. We know of institutions where they are
welcomed in with limited academic ability.
I mean we have had projects at
Mr. Gilleshammer: The supports, I suppose, one could say are
not new supports in concept but that specific support networks will be put in
place for individual clients. The
company of friends that are required for that individual will be a more
formalized situation, and the key to this initiative is that the client and
friends will make decisions, not the agency and not the department. We want to make these individuals more self‑managed,
with friends and with family and not become part of a decision making by the
department or by the agency. People have
questioned the amount of dollars that we are spending on this for 25
individuals and feel that this pilot project is too expensive given the number
of individuals who are involved.
Part of the individual plan is to purchase
the supports, to use the family members, the friends, the advocates, to provide
very individualized programs for these people who will be going into the
community. The pilot project will give
the participants the opportunity to live and participate in the community and
make decisions about the supports that they require.
This, I suppose, ties somewhat into our
legislation as well, that these vulnerable people are going to be regarded more
and more as part of the planning stages and the decision‑making stages
than they were before. So I guess if you
are looking for something that is different or unique, I think it is the role
of the individual client which is going to be highlighted more than before.
Mrs. Carstairs: I suspect some of these individual clients
may not be able to make those decisions, but some of their friends may be able
to make some of those decisions.
When we talk about community
rehabilitation, we talk about a program initiative that I support. If people and individuals can live within the
community, I think that is the goal that all of us would like to see
achieved. But over the years, we have
heard a lot of dollars bandied around.
We are told frequently that it is cost effective to have people in the
community. I think that is a myth. I do not think you save a lot of money by
having people in the community. That does
not make it wrong to have them in the community. I think they should be in the community, but
we have now been welcoming people home into the community for eight to 10 years
in much greater numbers than we ever did prior to that date.
Has there ever been any analysis done in
this department as to what the per‑person cost of living in the community
is vis‑a‑vis the per‑person cost of that individual living in
an institution, taking into consideration the degree of disability that
individual has?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I agree with the member that I do not think
this should ever be sold on a cost‑saving basis, and I agree, and I think
the information that is coming out of the department is similar to what you are
suggesting, that it is cheaper for individuals to live in the community.
* (1620)
So I think we need to get away from making
those decisions on a cost basis. The
comment that the member made about clients being incapable of making the
decisions or something to that effect, that is true in part, but I think if you
look at it from the other side, historically the clients have not been involved
in many cases at all in making those decisions.
Their wishes have been ignored.
For sure they are not living on their own, and they are living in the
institution because of the fact that they cannot be completely independent.
The whole thrust of the vulnerable persons
legislation is to include the client to as great a degree as possible in making
that decision and not to ignore the thoughts and the wishes and the feelings of
that individual. So whether that sounds
idealistic or not, I think we have to include the individual as part of the
planning.
The information that the department
presents is that it costs in the area of $45,000 annually for that person
living in the community. If you will
look at the costs in the Manitoba Developmental Centre, it is not far off that,
again depending on the specific needs of the person.
Then, of course, you would have to factor
into that the cost of a very big sort of campus‑like operation at MDC,
where you have 575 clients and over 600 staff.
It is like a university setting or a school setting where you have to
take into consideration the running of the plant and the staffing of that.
Mrs. Carstairs: The trap, it seems to me, that many people
fall into is comparing living costs. My
concern is that, when we have brought many of these people into the community,
many of the supports that they had in the institution disappear: the physiotherapy, the speech therapy, the
day programming, which is readily available in the institutional setting, have
not been as readily available to some of the clients when they have been
brought out of that institutional setting.
Is that part of the program initiative
that hopefully will be addressed by this pilot program?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, that is built into that $45,000 cost,
but the member is absolutely right.
Where those services are available right there, right now at MDC,
whether it is in the activity department, whether it is in the hospital,
whether it is on the floor, I guess part of Community Living is the reality
that you access those services like anybody else does and make those
appointments or have them made and be taken to those appointments. That is the trade‑off from having that
instant support around you in a setting like MDC to having to go to those
appointments and find those services out in the community. So there are differences.
Mrs. Carstairs: Well, I am pleased, if that is in reality
what this pilot project is going to do.
I hope that it will come to grips with the fact that I do not think
there is a political party in the province that does not think people should be
in the community if that is where they can live in an enhanced opportunity for
them to maximize their potential.
I also think we all recognize that there
are some who can obviously play a much larger role in the planning process for
themselves than others. I mean, I have
been at MDC and I have been at St. Amant.
I have met many of the clients, some of whom quite frankly do not have
the capacity to be involved in that planning process, but I agree with the
minister that if they can, then obviously they must be, and that is a parcel
that did not exist in the past.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, and as you get into rural Manitoba,
where I think there are many wonderful placements that can be made, your
ability to access things like physiotherapy and speech therapy and some of the
specific therapies that may be required are not readily accessed in a few
minutes. But that is again one of the
trade‑offs for having the privilege of living in rural
Mrs. Carstairs: However, it is not one of the privileges of
living in rural
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, this is certainly the challenge for our
professional staff to be able to monitor the changes that are taking place in
that individual. Many of the rural
hospitals now have mobile clinicians that can provide that physiotherapy,
either in that location or are able to make the house calls.
Again, if you are moving people from an
institutional setting where the professionals there can monitor that individual
on a daily basis and see the changes that take place, there has to be that
transitional planning so that the new group of professionals who will be
monitoring that community placement are able to understand the changes that are
taking place.
That is one of the reasons why this
initiative is taking a little longer in identifying the individuals who are
going to participate in it and being sure that the plans we put in place meet
all of the needs of that individual and that we look at all of the
contingencies that may in fact happen.
Mrs. Carstairs: Moving into another area, I want to deal
specifically with respite support. Are the
clients, the children in particular, somehow or other rated as to the kind of
respite, or the amount of respite service should be available to them?
I mean for example, when we panel seniors,
we have a one, two, three, four categorization.
Is there any such categorization or determination made for whether a
child's family should get respite or whether they should not, and what is it?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told with the Children's Special
Services, it is the professional judgment of our caseworkers who, in
consultation with supervisors, make those judgments.
* (1630)
Mrs. Carstairs: What would be the maximum amount of respite
available to a family?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that it is up to 30 to 40 hours a
week for medically complex children.
Mrs. Carstairs: When that respite is applied, does that mean
that there is no requirement at all for one of the parents to be around through
the delivery of that service?
Mr. Gilleshammer: There is no compulsion for the primary
caregiver to be there. In fact, one of
the main purposes of respite, of course, is to give that respite to the primary
caregiver.
Mrs. Carstairs: When the minister says it is a maximum of 30
to 40 hours per week, depending on of course the medical need of the child,
what do they do in terms of holiday time?
Do they have to book that time until they get enough for a solid week or
two weeks?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that they have to do some long‑term
planning and targeting their holiday time and to plan within the number of hours
that has been allotted to them to accommodate themselves for that holiday. Probably the most difficult aspect of this is
to find a caregiver who can substitute for them during this period of time
while they are away.
Mrs. Carstairs: Is it still the policy of the department that
a close relative, a brother or a sister, can still not provide respite care and
be paid for that care?
Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct.
Mrs. Carstairs: I have a very simple question. Why?
Mr. Gilleshammer: It is a historical relationship that we have,
of course. I can wait for the department
to give me the answer, or I can speculate that‑‑which I sometimes
do‑‑it is the same scenario that we sometimes get into with care of
extended family in other areas where there appears to be some sort of conflict
of interest.
But I guess I can understand the member's
question that you can certainly get into a gray area here where perhaps the
best caregiver in the world would be another family member. I think in terms of an abundance of caution,
government has always had some difficulty in flowing funds to other family
members for what is regarded to be a family responsibility, but certainly in
this area it is an area that I think you could more realistically make a case
than for child care. I guess the option
is still there for family members to give that support in whatever way they can
outside of the respite hours that are paid for by government.
Mrs. Carstairs: I just want to ask the government and
particularly this minister to look at it again.
I mean, I had a situation several months ago in which a 17‑year‑old
who has been looking after her brother and sister for seven or eight years at
this point in time, knows how to care for this child, has had to take a job
outside of the home, is now not available to the parents on the same basis as
the child used to be available for additional respite care. The parents have more trust and more faith in
this child looking after their handicapped child than they do anybody else
because they know, they have seen every situation and every difficulty. The child involved becomes more tense and
therefore potentially more dangerous because they do not have this individual
who is used to them looking after them.
It just seems that we do this, and not
just this government, governments of all political stripes do it over an
overabundance of caution. Maybe it is
time we started making decisions based on the real needs of the individual and
throwing caution to the wind every now and then. I can say that having decided I am retiring,
of course.
Mr. Gilleshammer: You know, I think you are right in that it is
out of an abundance of caution in the expenditure of public funds, because not
a week goes by when you do not see somebody somewhere raising how public funds
are being expended. Yet I tend to agree
with the member that here, that perhaps there is a case to balance what is the
best for the client with the protection of the public funds. It is an issue that we will raise within the
department and within government, because I think it is a broader government
issue as well.
Mrs. Carstairs: I think there are two ways of doing it. I think one way is obviously changing the
policy, which is going to be difficult and sensitive to all of the attacks on inappropriate
use of dollars, but maybe it could find its way into the pilot program just to
say, all right, let us try it in a couple of incidents and let us see how it
works out and then maybe we can get some data as to its real validity. The other way, of course, is to look at a tax
credit system which might then be used by the family as a way to pay the
individual family member so they do not have to take part‑time work doing
something else. Just a couple of
suggestions.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, it sounds similar to a suggestion
brought forward to me by one of the agencies that are making similar
suggestions in terms of adoption in certain communities where it does not seem
to exist at the present time, but maybe having a different perspective on it and
having it tied into the replacement of foster care dollars by some other means
might solve some problems in that area.
Mrs. Carstairs: Judging by some of the correspondence that I
have received recently, there is a perceived lack of adequate program for independent
living programs. I have a letter from
Dauphin and I also have one in the Stonewall area. Has there been a decrease or has there simply
not been an increase of this particular program?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, the statistics I read earlier would
indicate there has been an increase in the number of clients who are accessing
independent living. Again, it has been a
rather modest increase. Since the '88‑89
budget year, we have had an increase in spaces of 97.
Ms. Jean Friesen
(Wolseley): I wanted to ask some general questions about
the care homes in the community, and I think you may be aware of some issues
that came up recently in Wolseley. There was a member of your staff there. Is this the right line to ask it on?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, we are on 4.(b) Community Living and
Vocational Rehabilitation Programs, Adult Services. Let us see what we can do.
Ms. Friesen: It is an issue which is certainly not new in
Wolseley. It is one that I think has
been there really since the 1960s and '70s and, of course, is intensified as
the number of people returning to the community has increased. It is an issue, of course, of the density,
the number of group homes of various kinds, some care homes, some children's homes,
some homes for people with particular medical conditions, whether it is mental
conditions or others, and also for senior citizens.
* (1640)
We find that in Wolseley generally, and
that includes the west Broadway area, we are looking at about 80 to 90
"group homes" of various kinds.
It is a situation, obviously, which has been there for a while. It is partly because it is a family
neighbourhood, because there are large homes there at a relatively reasonable
price and have been certainly since the 1970s, but the density, the number of
groups homes that are in that area I think came to a head recently on
I am sure you are aware of the recent
cases in
I wondered how your department has been
reflecting upon this and where you plan to go with this. Would any of it affect or help some of my constituents
who are very concerned about the continuing density in the Wolseley area?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I think it is a discussion that has not
really developed yet within our department and, I suspect, would cross a number
of departments, particularly Health would come to mind, as more and more
Community Living services are made available there.
It also is an issue that has to be
addressed by some of the outside agencies.
I can tell you that it really has not come forward in any substantive
way as an issue that department staff have spent a lot of time in discussing
that I am aware of. Now that you raise
it, I think it is something that I would like to look at, because in one of the
recent tours I took of Child and Family Services group homes, it strikes me
that three of the ones we visited were probably in the area that you reference.
For sure, what you are saying is
correct. Group homes tend to look at the
two‑ and three‑storey large homes where you can accommodate eight
to 10 individuals. I do not know whether
it is something that has been raised with the city as far as zoning goes or
whether there is any sort of governance on that, but I can understand from a
neighbourhood perspective where I am sure the neighbourhood wants to do its
share, but does not want the proliferation of group homes in any particular
part of the city.
I think, as I say, it probably should be
raised within government in Health and in Housing and in Urban Affairs as well
as this department and maybe Justice and maybe some others. Again, it is one we
have not really focused on.
Ms. Friesen: The minister raises a number of issues, and
one of them is the city. Yes, that was a
question I was going to ask you to follow up on, if you would, because as a
result of the Canadian Mental Health Association case, I understand that the
city does have to and is in the process of revising its by‑law. I wanted
to know if the minister had been in touch with the Minister of Urban Affairs
(Mr. Ernst), if there had been any contact over the nature of this by‑law,
and if there was any way in which the new by‑law might help address some
part of this problem. In the cases that
we are looking at in Wolseley, it is not just the neighbourhood, but in some
cases it is individual blocks where there are several group homes of various
kinds. I do not want to leave the
impression either with the public or with the minister that the neighbourhood
is rejecting these.
The conditions that were discussed at the
meeting were very much an issue of density, of allocation, not the nature of
group homes or the welcoming of people into the community itself.
Mr. Gilleshammer: It is a valid concern that I think I will
have officials raise with other departments and see what sort of information is
coming forward, either in Urban Affairs or Housing or Health or Justice or
whatever, and also see that there is some liaison with the city over that.
I am aware of the issue coming forward in
other communities. In one of the communities that we just opened a crisis
shelter in not too long ago, it became a very public event between the council
and the community and, of course, very undesirable, because we try to maintain
a shelter as a sort of an unknown location, but here it was debated in the
newspapers and debated in the City Council.
I know that earlier on the issue came up
in the city of
It certainly comes up on the child welfare
side from t00e to time, where frequently there is more activity going on with
the people who live there that may be deemed to be undesirable. So it is an issue that we have to, I think,
take very seriously because, as we provide more of these Community Living
circumstances, we will not succeed without the support of the community.
Ms. Friesen: I wanted to emphasize that what the community
is looking for is, I think, what is called normalization. We are looking for normal conditions, family
neighbourhood conditions for the children or people in residence in the care
homes, as well as for the inhabitants of the neighbourhood.
The recent court cases do have an impact,
and we probably should be looking again at the regulations which are primarily
in the Department of Family Services. I
understand the need to connect with other departments, but I do not want to get
lost sight of in some mammoth interdepartmental committee. The regulations rest in this department, and
so I would like to focus there.
I wondered if the minister could tell us
if there had been any recent discussion of new approaches to legislation, I
think, that have been there in the department in the past. I think one possibility had been to look at
the principle of reasonable distribution in the assigning of licences to care
homes. I think that had been discussed
in the department some years ago. I
wondered if that was still there.
Mr. Gilleshammer: We had some earlier discussion under the
licensing area, but it was very brief.
There has not been that issue advanced to my office in recent times, but
as I have indicated, we will take a look at it.
* (1650)
Ms. Friesen: I think some of the residents of the Wolseley
constituency might be interested in meeting with you on that, and I wondered if
that would be a possibility at some point.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, we have met with many, many groups in
recent weeks and recent months until the Estimates started, and of course, have
not been able to do that, but if there is a request coming forward, we will
entertain the possibility of either having staff meet with them or myself if
time permits.
Mr. Martindale: My understanding is that the grant to the Association
for Community Living was cut by 25 percent or $100,000. I wonder if the minister could tell me if
these figures are correct or if not, give me the correct figures.
Mr. Gilleshammer: We tabled earlier the grants listing, and I
do believe that we did make a reduction of their grant.
Mr. Martindale: What was the amount of the grant last year,
so that we can compare.
Mr. Gilleshammer: I believe it was just over $100,000.
Mr. Martindale: So how much was the grant reduced from last
year to this year?
Mr. Gilleshammer: It was 100 percent.
Mr. Martindale: So this was one of the 56 organizations where
the grant was eliminated completely.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes.
Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell us what the rationale
or justification was for this particular agency losing their grant entirely?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, we have discussed the grants listing
earlier, and I do not mind going into it again, that the government of
Manitoba, as governments across this country, are looking at very, very difficult
budgetary times, and government had to look at the organizations that were
being funded, some for advocacy, some for service and some that perhaps did a
combination of those.
Decisions were made on that basis to eliminate
the funding of certain organizations, and the Association for Community Living
was one of them.
Mr. Martindale: I have a very interesting letter that was
copied to me, originally addressed to the minister on March 30 from someone who
had benefited from the services provided by the Association for Community
Living and was quite disappointed with this minister for eliminating their
grant.
The particular situation is, it is a
parent of an autistic child who expressed gratitude in their letter for a
conference that ACL convened for families in which people from other regions or
other provinces shared their experiences with what kinds of assistance and
programs, et cetera, were helpful to parents with autistic children.
It then goes on to talk about what would
have happened to their particular family and child if the services of ACL were
not available and points out that‑‑I will just read one short
paragraph because it is quite well put.
She says: We cannot help but
wonder if it were not for organizations such as ACL Manitoba, where would our
son be today? Away from home and family
because we could no longer physically control his aggressive behaviour, or on
drug treatment so he would have no desire to stand up for himself and his
rights. He would be expected to learn in
a zombie state of mind.
My question is, who will provide the
services that ACL previously provided?
Will assistance be available to parents of autistic children, for
example, as this parent points out were quite helpful when they were provided
by ACL, and who and where in the minister's department will take over services
formerly provided by ACL?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I did not write down all those questions but
I will try and answer them as my memory permits me to do.
I would say that the vast majority of
clients who access services from a department that spends around $700 million
are vulnerable people. You can go
through, as we have been going through the department, line by line, and in fact
one of your more seasoned colleagues once referred to this as the department of
human grief. For sure, the services that
we provide do make the circumstances of many of our clients or the clients of
agencies that we fund somewhat better.
Government was in that position where we
had to find some savings from the amount of money that we spent in the past
year, and I know we have had the opportunity to talk about what is happening in
other provinces and what is happening across this country as governments
struggle with the reality of the debt and the deficit. Very, very difficult decisions are being
made. I mean, just as it makes families
dysfunctional, it is even making political parties fight very openly about
where government should be making those decisions.
I am sure it makes the member appreciate
the luxury of opposition that he is enjoying and the reality of government as
they have to make these decisions. We
are hearing members of Parliament say things that they would never have said
before, and again, it is the reality of the 1990s as we face these budgetary
crises.
It is not just the government of
A lot of these organizations that were
receiving government grants, of course, this was a part of their total
funding. I had the opportunity 10 days
or two weeks ago to meet with the particular group that the member is referencing,
and they do in fact access funding from other sources. They, I believe, recognize within the total
picture that there will have to be adjustments made as they determine where
they will make those funding decisions.
So these have not been easy to communicate to organizations.
I have had the opportunity I think over
the last few weeks to meet with virtually all of the organizations that have
been impacted by these decisions made by government within this budget. The one thing that comes through loud and
clear is that there is a general acceptance that there was some degree of
thought that went into this and some degree of fairness. When they have had the chance to get over the
initial impact of funding decisions, there is a feeling that government by and
large has been fair across departments and within departments in making funding
decisions.
All of them, of course, in Family Services
are extremely difficult because, as I indicated when I first started, these are
vulnerable people that we provide services for.
I can tell you again that there are many places that we would spend our
next dollar or our next million dollars within this department. This area of Rehab and Community Living is
one area where I find that we have waiting lists where we could do with more
resources to help those individuals who are accessing service and who are on
waiting lists at the present time. So
when we look at some of these grants, if there is a way of perhaps reducing a
grant so that we can give more direct service to individuals then that is part
of the decision‑making process that we made.
Again, I understand the disappointment and
I understand the hurt of organizations that have been accessing these funds for
some time and the fact that they have to make adjustments. I mean, the whole world is making adjustments
at this time, whether it is in the business community, whether it is in the
sports community, whether it is in government, whether it is in private
business, that there is a recognition that government does not have the ability
to access more funds at this time‑‑
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The time being 5 p.m. and time for private
members' hour, I am interrupting the proceedings of the committee. The Committee of Supply will resume consideration
at 8 p.m. Thank you.
HIGHWAYS
AND TRANSPORTATION
Madam Chairperson
(Louise Dacquay): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to
order. This section of the Committee of
Supply is dealing with the Estimates for the Department of Highways and
Transportation.
We are on item 8. Expenditures Related to
Capital, page 93 of the Estimates manual.
Would the minister's staff please enter
the Chamber.
Mr. Clif Evans
(Interlake): I would appreciate continuing on some of the
roads in my constituency that I would like to question the minister about. I would like to get to Highway 329, we closed
up on 329. I had the opportunity the very next day travelling that road. I took that road specifically to see the
condition it was in. There were crews
out on the road doing some preventative maintenance‑‑[interjection]
Friday. The minister, I do not think,
would appreciate if they were out there on Saturday without even knowing.
As far as 329 goes, Madam Chairperson, I
would like to know from the minister just exactly what the plans are for that
vital east and west link that we have between Riverton and Fisher Branch and
all the communities between, and where is he going with 329?
Hon.
Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam
Chairperson, the first stretch of 329 from Riverton to Highway 326 has been
upgraded with a base and AST. The
stretch from 326 to 233 has been upgraded, and from 233 to No. 17, we are in
the acquisition of right‑of‑way in that portion there. It is up for consideration.
Mr. Clif Evans: The minister says that the portion from 326
to 233 has been upgraded. Has he been
down there? Has his staff been on that
road lately? What does he call
upgrading?
Mr. Driedger: I do not know whether staff have been there
on or not, but 1990‑91 is when we did the upgrading of the stretch from
326 to 233. However, it has not‑‑we
have not proceeded with a base and AST on that.
I assume the second lift of gravel is on there. It is a matter of when we prioritize it to do
the base and AST, but it is a short stretch there. I would assume that possibly that will not
take place until we have done the balance of upgrading on 329.
If the member has some concern about the condition
of the road right now, let him not get too upset because at this time of year,
as a process coming out throughout the province, I can take him on various
roads where we have problems. That comes
back to the point that I have made many times, that since the province took
over the road system, the PR and PTH system, in 1965, we still had close to
5,000 kilometres of PRs that had never been upgraded, that were in their
initial base condition, where we have tried just by maintenance to try and keep
them in reasonable shape.
* (1440)
By and large, that was one of the reasons
why the consideration was brought forward to take and transfer 2,000 kilometres
back to municipalities, because there is just no way that we‑‑our
system is such that we just have not got them all upgraded at this point. We are doing it in stages wherever we can
based on the condition of the road, based on the traffic counts on the road and
based on the amount of money that is available.
That has been the challenge that this department has faced for many,
many years, to see how soon can we get our system upgraded.
If the road is in disrepair to any degree,
I have no qualms asking my regional staff to see what has to be done to get it
to be in reasonable shape, but I repeat again, that the fact that we have frost
boils coming out in many cases‑‑invariably, as long as it is a
gravel road, we do not restrict it in spring.
As a result, the loads that are being hauled on there at the most
vulnerable time of a road very often put it into such shape that it takes us
virtually weeks before we can finally get them back into reasonable shape
again.
I could only assume, if the member has
been on that road, that this is what happened in that case, but let him not
feel that he has got an isolated case there.
This is not an unusual thing, maybe an unwanted thing, but not an
unusual thing to happen at this time of year.
Mr. Clif Evans: Madam Chairperson, I am well aware of
frost. I am well aware of the
situation. On Friday, travelling that road
from 326 to the area past 233 that specifically we had talked about the
condition, there was in fact a grader on that road attempting to do something
with the situation. The part that is
troubling me right now is from 326 to 233, because he says it has been
upgraded.
There was not an iota of gravel on that
road, Madam Chair, and all the gravel, if there was any, was sitting on the
sides and shoulders and in the ditches, but all the grader was scraping was mud
and boulders. So if the minister claims
that portion was upgraded to a certain level, I think perhaps they should go
back to that part and upkeep it.
I think, Madam Chairperson, where a big
problem is, again, and it relates to other departments, is the upkeep, keeping
a road, whether it be a PR or highway or whatever, maintained to a level that
at least we are not coming across these conditions that we are on 329, 234 and
other roads throughout the province. Preventative maintenance‑‑it
is like the commercial, pay me now or pay me later.
The minister is, I am sure, aware of the
problems that are facing the farmers. As
he is also well aware, there are restrictions at this time of the year on
certain roads, and 329 is quite an important link and transportation mode for a
lot of the farmers who have to bypass the main roads because of restrictions.
I would say that, being out there again on
Friday and seeing what they were attempting to do, it is complimentary to the
staff out there and to the minister's department for acting on it, but I am
saying, how long is it going to take for this right‑of‑way or
acquisition? The process could be
speeded up, I am sure. Why cannot we get
moving on 329 and finish it up to a level that will make everyone happy?
Mr. Driedger: Well, Madam Chairperson, I want to correct
the member that, certainly if it was of the most extreme priority that things
could be escalated, but he says, why do we not do it and make everybody
happy. If I did that there, I would
still have 100 other places where they would be unhappy, so I would not be
making everybody happy.
It is one of the problems we have been
facing with reduced expenditures in the Department of Highways and
Transportation, and I am sure the member has been very actively supporting the
money that has been spent on human services, health, education, family
services. As a result of the
prioritization of those departments, money that has been coming forward to the
Department of Highways and Transportation and the Department of Natural
Resources is not keeping pace with what should have happened.
That is the challenge and problems that I
face in terms of the quality of the road between the 233 and 326 that the
member makes reference to. Whether the
road, as he says, there is no gravel on it, that it is all on the sides, it
could well be. I will have staff look at
exactly the quality of how we maintain it.
We establish, based on traffic criteria,
quality of road, our beats as to how many times it will be maintained in the
normal course of the year in terms of whether they get graded two times a week,
once a week, three times a week. It
depends on many things. My maintenance
staff out there basically do that on that basis, and that is how we establish
our maintenance beats.
The other problem, and I alluded to that
early on in my comments, in saying that because of a lack of funding, the
quality of our maintenance, especially in roadside mowing, et cetera, would be
down. So we look very carefully at these
things to see that we can still keep the road in reasonable shape with the
minimum amount of money. So the member,
lest he tries to give an impression that his area is the only one that is
experiencing this, I do not have the time but I could make reference to all the
various PR roads that have not been upgraded, that at certain times are in
critical condition in spring.
This is not a criticism toward the farmers
themselves, but invariably where we have gravel roads we do not restrict. So they invariably take advantage of those
roads, and they also take advantage of the municipal roads that are not
restricted in terms of hauling maximum loads if they can in the
springtime. If the member says the
artery of 329 is a very important artery, I am not saying it is not; however,
that portion from 326 to Riverton is based in AST.
I can assure him, unless there is
something that I do not know, that it is restricted quite excessively and would
be limited at this time of year to relatively light loads. The other portion, maybe the community or the
farmers are using the municipal roads until they hit ours and go on there but
invariably‑‑and I do not fault them. I mean, I realize they want to haul their
loads, and if it is not restricted why should they not? As a consequence to that, you have the kind
of conditions of the road that the member is making reference to.
Mr. Clif Evans: I just want to point out to the minister,
too, and what he says about our other roads in Manitoba‑‑I mean,
yes, I am from southeastern
I would like to continue with‑‑and,
again, I want to thank the minister for meeting last year with myself and
representatives from Dauphin River‑‑regard to the upkeep and, I
guess, the future development of Highway 513 from Gypsumville to
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, let me first of all
confirm the fact that I met with the delegation headed by the member for the
Interlake and the community people that came in and expressed their concern
about the continuation of upgrading the road itself. At the same time, we were talking about the
maintenance end of it, which I think staff were going to undertake to meet with
them and see whether certain portions of that road could be done by local
maintenance. I just want to say that I
personally support that kind of activity where possible, where we can tie it
in.
We have to, at the same time, take into
consideration‑‑I think I mentioned at the time that we have our own
equipment, and we cannot just take blocks out and have somebody else do that.
We have to do it so that we get maximum usage out of the machines and operators
that we have out there. This is a long
stretch that basically comes once you leave Gypsumville. I have had occasion, lest the member feels
that road has gotten worse, I have gone fishing into that area for many, many
years and there were times when we used to drive through there with two and
three feet of water going through some of the low areas.
So there has been ongoing improvement on
that road to the point where it is now a much more reasonable road. There is also a fair amount of fishing
traffic going down there every spring, which creates a fair amount of pressure
on that road as well. I am waiting to
see whether staff has got anything specific on it, but we have at the present
time‑‑I have to tell the member that there is nothing specifically
identified for the continuation.
* (1450)
The member must, I think, accept also the
fact that the stretch that was built, that new stretch through the swamp there,
if I can call it that, through the muskeg, was a very, very expensive
road. That, I think, has improved the
driving out there. The balance of the
stretch, and as I said, I have been on there, I realize the problems with that,
but it is a curvy road, dusty at times, and is subject to safety concerns on
there. We will continue to see how we
can move this forward somewhere along the line to give it consideration among
all the other projects.
Lest the member feels that we are not
doing enough, I think just with what he has itemized of his concerns would
virtually take up half my budget already if I could comply with all of that in
one year. So I note the member's
concerns, and we will try to accommodate as best we can, as well as with his other
colleagues, those roads that need to be upgraded and that we can prioritize in
terms of money and where we are with it.
Without wanting to repeat our process again in terms of prioritization,
the survey design, the grading, ultimately paving or whatever the case may be,
once we get them into the process, and I have so many on there, it is a matter
of choosing which ones we can proceed with.
Mr. Clif Evans: Madam Chair, in closing with 513, and I am
aware and have spoken with chief and council just a week ago today, they are
planning on revitalizing their fishing and tourism aspect in
So I would appreciate the fact that the
minister would consider keeping up with the maintenance end of it. Also, on those curves, I noticed last Monday
that on some of the curves some of the brush was cut down. I think that probably an important part of
the project itself is to maintain that, to be able to see where you are going
when you are coming around those curves, and by taking care of some of the
shrubbery that has grown up around the corners.
So I am just making the minister aware of that.
Riverton downtown revitalization. The Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns)
and the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach) met with the Riverton
council early last fall, before the new council was in place. What part, what role is the Minister of
Highways playing with the Riverton council request for downtown revitalization
and work on their
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, let me first of all take
this opportunity to congratulate the people from Riverton, at the time when
they were in and the plan that they were developing in terms of revitalizing
their community, their
We are working together with the
Department of Natural Resources and my people, together with the community, in
terms of getting the program developed to the point where we can start making
some final decisions as to what should happen.
Having been in the community, I am very supportive of moving forward on
getting something done within the community from the Highways perspective end
of it.
I have always had a soft spot or a
preference, I suppose, to working with communities to try and get the
communities' streets improved, those portions that are ours, because invariably
that is where you get most people affected by it. So we are in the process of working with
them, and once we get to the decision‑making point, as I have indicated
to the community, I would be supportive in terms of moving the project forward.
Mr. Clif Evans: In closing, can the minister guarantee or
indicate that a certain time frame has been put in place to work with the
council and get the whole program moving, as far as the Department of Highways
goes? I know there is the Department of
Rural Development and the Department of Natural Resources involved‑‑can
we have a time frame?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, I cannot give the member a
definitive answer right now. We are just
trying to check to see when the last time was that we had contact with them. I am prepared to take that question as notice
and respond to the member directly on that specific project, because I do not
know what changes have taken place since the last elections at the local level,
whether there have been any changes, or whether their position has
changed. I will have to do some
checking. I have instructed staff to
take and find out the details of it, and then we will respond by way of letter
or otherwise.
Mr. Clif Evans: Madam Chairperson, I would just like to put
on record, if the minister would agree to discuss Riverton Boat Works with me
personally on Friday, or Monday of next week.
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, in an earlier discussion
about the Riverton Boat Works, I think I gave an undertaking to the member
that, once we have the legal opinion that we are seeking, I would then take and
inform him, and then we can jointly discuss further as to what approach can be
taken and that commitment still stands.
Mr. John Plohman
(Dauphin): Madam Chairperson, I would like to use this
opportunity to ask the minister a few questions about some Highways projects
that have not moved too far in the last few years under this minister's
stewardship. It is something of concern
for a number of people in the area.
Contrary to what the minister has said or actually believes, everything
was not completed in the Dauphin area forever during the time that I was
Minister of Highways and Transportation.
There was a lot of work left to be done and in progress at the time. Of course, it has largely been left undone by
this minister. I cannot understand why
his priorities would have shifted when he saw these valuable and important
programs that had to be done. He did
finish a few highways in the area‑‑269, one chunk there that
finished paving it to complete the road up to the Waterhen area. He also did a section of 364 to
Winnipegosis. That was completed, but
that was about the sum total of it.
* (1500)
There is another portion on 276 up to
Skownan, I believe, that is currently in the planning for paving, perhaps being
paved this summer, and maybe the contract is out already. I want to ask the minister first about
that. Could he give me the timetable for
completion of paving 276 north of the Waterhen bridge to Skownan?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, we are starting from
Skownan going south, right? The member
veiled his concerns a little bit saying that we had not completed many of the
valuable projects, but I think we have done relatively well in his constituency
generally.
I want to say that in our discussions with
the people from Skownan, that there should be base and AST done, but we are
starting from Skownan going south. So
that is the first portion, and then in a meeting with them, we have given an
undertaking that the next step is to continue it all the way down to the
Waterhen.
So this year should see the base and
AST. Mulder Construction got the
contract on November 5. So I would
assume, based on the allowable days, workable days that are there‑‑so
on that particular project the contract is let to do the first portion of it,
and then we will continue to do the second portion. We are doing it in two stages. We met with the community and had a good
discussion with them. I think they were
justified in requesting that.
Does the member have other roads that you
want to make specific reference to?
Mr. Plohman: Madam Chairperson, I also wanted to follow up
on the minister's answers. The minister
said the contract was let for the northern‑most portion. Could the minister be more specific? How many kilometres? Will it stop at Rockridge or go past, go
further south? Will it include any of
the internal roads in the Rockridge community, as Robert Lavalee has been asking
for? Precisely how many kilometres will
be done as of this contract that was let November 5, '92, to Mulder
Construction?
Mr. Driedger: The contract is for 8.8 kilometres. It stops at Rockridge at the present
time. I believe the balance is virtually
completed in terms of survey design and some acquisition, that the balance of
it for the grading and gravel contract is one of the ones we have under
consideration in this year's program, which has not been finalized yet.
Mr. Plohman: Madam Chairperson, the minister should know
that the grading was completed when we were in government and it was done with
the view that it would be paved right through.
After five years it is easy for the minister to start reinventing
history when he thinks he has to regrade it again. I think it is just a matter of paving at this
point in time.
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, I misunderstood what was
said here. It has been graded and
gravelled. It is basically ready for
base and AST at an estimated cost of approximately $1.1 million. We will be doing the northern portion. This is one of the things that is under
consideration for this year's program, for approval.
Mr. Plohman: The road will be paved up to Rockridge and
into some of the community roads. That
part the minister did not clarify. Is it
just to the entrance to Rockridge? Could
the minister just clarify that?
Mr. Driedger: No internal roads will be done, because that
is not my jurisdiction. That, basically,
in the community would come under Native and Northern Affairs, who do the
secondary roads in there. It would be
our portion of the road. The member is
probably more aware than I am exactly how far that goes. It is that portion that is our responsibility
that we are doing the 8.8 kilometres on.
Mr. Plohman: Has the minister had any contact with the
Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) on a request to have paving done on
the internal road system while the operations are there and the materials are
there, the equipment is there and so on?
Has there been any discussion whatsoever about any additional paving
that might be pursued and paid for by the Department of Northern Affairs?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, invariably, when we do
work in these communities the Department of Native and Northern Affairs is
aware of it. We have, in many cases,
tried to synchronize that contract, if we let one, to tie in the additional
roads in that community. With the
limitations of funding that they have, I do not know whether this one has
specifically come under discussion.
I know some of the other communities where
we undertake certain work, they try and tie in some further activities through
my colleague's department so that we can get the best bang for the buck, so to
speak. If we have a contractor in there
it is often very beneficial to do this right away because, if it is done on a
separate basis, just the movement costs are pretty substantial. So we try and give that consideration.
I rely to some degree that some initiative
come forward from the Department of Native and Northern Affairs as to the
pressure that they get to have some of this work undertaken. We have ongoing discussions about these
roads.
For the member's benefit, we will make
note of it and check whether there is anything that my colleague's department
has requests for or are considering that could be tied in to the contract with
Mulder Construction.
Just because the contract has been let,
from my department's perspective, it does not mean that‑‑very often
the contractors are very amenable to adding something to that at the given
price. I have no aversion to doing
that. I think it is only good common
sense to try and do that.
I will take the question under
consideration with my colleague in terms of specifically whether there is
anything slated for the community up there.
Mr. Plohman: I want to thank the minister for that
undertaking. I know the mayor there, Robert Lavalee, has been making some
requests to the department regarding that.
It was my understanding that there would be some work done, so the
minister's undertaking was important for us to determine exactly where that is
at.
I also want to ask the minister about
another road in that area, actually two of them. One is the south Mallard road which the
minister has probably received some requests on. It is on the map in the form of a blue
road. It is in blue, not fully a
provincial road, but it is one that we have provided some work up north to
Mallard. The people who live south along
the
Has he commenced any work there with
regard to that road? Does he have any timetable for completing at least some
minimal grading so that it can be passable in the spring, because it is
extremely old, the construction. It is,
obviously, not done to the standards of today and susceptible to the spring
thaw and frost boils and even flooding.
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, first of all, that road
that is marked there, the
The portion south of 328, we have that up
for survey design. [interjection] The survey has been done. South of 328, we have it up for acquisition
right‑of‑way and utility revisions.
To the north, we do not have it on the docket at the present time. This is something that we worked together
with the LGD‑‑[interjection] It was built.
Mr. Plohman: Yes, we did that.
Mr. Driedger: You did that.
How come it is so bad then?
Mr. Plohman: It needs surfacing.
Mr. Driedger: A main market road?
* (1510)
Mr. Plohman: Madam Chairperson, the minister wants to know
about the north Mallard road. That one
was upgraded from 1950 standards to 1980 standards a few years ago, but because
of the nature of the subsoil and everything else there and perhaps maybe not
even sufficient maintenance on the road and gravel and so on, the condition is
very rough. Now whether that is
something the minister can accomplish through other means, I do not know that
it has to be upgraded again, but it was never surfaced. The intention was not to surface it at that
time. It was not built as a main market
road. It was not built to surfacing
standards at that time at all.
So I was just asking what maintenance is
required there to ensure that it is in good driving condition, but the major
concern that I have been getting is from the south of 328 where all of the
frost boils are, and there we are dealing with a road that was built to 1950
standards. It is basically a very narrow
low trail yet, and it needs upgrading.
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, I repeat again that the
portion south where the member says there are frost boils, et cetera, that is
the one that we have up for consideration for acquisition of right‑of‑way
and utility revision. That is among the
whole package that I have. We have not
completed that, I do not want the misconception here that it is necessarily
going to be on, but it is one of the ones that staff have come forward with.
As far as the maintenance is concerned on
the northern portion of it‑‑because very seldom, I do not recall
where we have basically graded these roads to be able to take base and AST or
asphalt, but the concern that the member has raised in terms of the level of
maintenance there, I will have staff, as these points get raised here, take
note of them and draw it to the attention of our regional offices. We try in all cases, together with the
communities involved and our staff and appeal, to develop a maintenance level
that basically addresses it.
This is a bad time for myself I suppose to
have my Estimates before the House because this is the worst time for
roads. We have restrictions on and the
frost is coming out and roads are breaking up.
It makes me and staff a little bit more vulnerable, but that is a fair
ball game.
I will take under consideration the
maintenance level of that main market road.
Mr. Plohman: My understanding is that survey design on the
south Mallard road has been completed.
Acquisition is being considered for this year's program, and the
minister I guess has advised our critic when the program is supposed to be
available and completed. I would think
the minister must be almost finished the consideration, so he may be able to shed
some additional light on that than just saying it is being considered. Probably a decision has already been made.
In addition, when the minister responds
perhaps to that, I would like to just point out, first of all, the north
Mallard road does have a lot of recreational traffic as well as to the
community there because of the excellent fishing in the
The minister may have a traffic count on
that road available‑‑I am not sure if he would‑‑but if
he did a traffic count, he would find, starting about now or within the next
couple of weeks, that traffic is really going to pick up on that road.
I would just like to ask the minister
about 328 which we started about seven years ago, six years ago or so‑‑probably
seven or eight‑‑a grading program from the Waterhen west some eight
miles or so. The remaining 32 or 33
miles over to No. 6 Highway is still at 1950 standards. That road was probably built in the '50s,
very low winding, susceptible again to frost boils and flooding and also
bridges that are very narrow and low, certainly not in very good condition as
an all‑weather road.
I wonder if the minister has looked at any
additional plans for continuing the grading work that was started there in the
mid‑'80s.
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, let me first make
reference to the comment that the member made about the road program that has
not been completed yet. I tried to
clarify that early on in my comments, when I opened my Estimates, that our road
program for this year's approval has not been completed and that whatever we do
approve now would be actually next year's construction because we are virtually
two years ahead.
I will take some of the criticism for not
having completed it, but between the federal arrangement that we had and the
SHIP program, which we call the Strategic Highway Improvement Project, it sort
of created a little bit of extra pressure on us in terms of trying to get
everything organized, and it is for that reason that we basically do not have
it quite completed.
We do not have that completed. I expect to have that hopefully within the
next two weeks, at which time I will table it, once we have gone through the
final stages, which are slated actually for pretty extensive hours as soon as
we finish the Estimates process. So I
would hope that within a week to 10 days, after we finish the Estimates, I
should be able to go forward to my colleagues for approval and then be able to
table the activities. So I just wanted
to clarify that.
In terms of the 328 from Waterhen to No.
6, I personally cannot indicate exactly what condition the road is in. In many cases, I can‑‑I have a
bit of a fond memory on that road because, if the member looks at Peonan Point,
years ago, that used to be my favourite place when there was still a tremendous
amount of deer in that long strip going in there. I always enjoy that country out there. That time, when you are a hunter, you are not
that sensitive to good road conditions.
In fact, the rougher they are the better, so that there are less people
coming in there.
Because that is a pretty substantive
stretch there‑‑we are looking at approximately 64 kilometres or
something like that in the total end of it‑‑the survey design has
been completed from 6 to Pollock's Lake or Pollock's Creek, and so the design
has been done. So we are in a position
where we can give consideration to the acquisition of right‑of‑way
on that stretch.
The other portion from Pollock's
Even these stretches might be broken into
two stages because Pollock's
* (1520)
Mr. Plohman: The minister should know that the first 10
kilometres or so from 276 easterly has already been graded, not upgraded to
pavement standards, no AST and no base, but to surfacing standards. So the minister does not have a great deal of
additional survey design from that straight section that was upgraded to
As I said to the minister earlier, this is
a link that is in very bad condition in the spring and throughout parts of the
year, depending on how wet it is, because it is a very low‑lying
situation. There are many swamps and
bogs. It is something that needs
upgrading, although the cost is quite substantial, I have to admit. Even on the construction project that was
done there, I know that it was very expensive.
The minister I hope will initiate at least
a program there of moving forward with the construction on a yearly basis, even
small amounts, to make some progress on it.
There has not been any work done on there now since that initial project
was undertaken, other than perhaps some survey design, which the minister
referred to.
I just want to mention to the minister
that the south Waterhen road would be the highest priority for acquisition, as
I can see at the present time, the survey design having been completed, and a
grading project. It is not that
expensive. It is not that long. It is a smaller project and something the
minister should try to fit in there as quickly as possible.
I do not think you would have a lot of
trouble with land acquisition, because everyone is anxious to have that done
and it would be private land versus some of the areas of the 328 which are
mostly Crown land surrounding the road.
So the minister does not have to acquire very much in some of those
areas to actually undertake a construction project there.
I also wanted to ask the minister about
364 west of Rorketon. A recent petition
was recirculated there and a letter sent to the minister. The condition again, we are probably dealing
with construction many years ago and it is susceptible to very heavy
maintenance, heavy drifting in the winter time.
It takes a lot of work to maintain those roads because they are so low
and not built to standards that make maintenance rather easy. It is very difficult and probably very expensive
to maintain that kind of road.
So I wonder whether the minister has
undertaken any initiative there, especially in light of the petition that was
circulated and the fact that there has been no work done in that area for some
time on 364 west of Rorketon.
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, the member is probably
aware that the department was looking at doing a realignment there, a new
alignment.
Mr. Plohman: Madam Chairperson, the minister has just put
on the record that they are looking at a realignment. I should say, for his clarification, that is
an important question to deal with, but that is not the area I was asking about
initially.
I was asking about the section immediately
west of Rorketon as the top priority.
There is a need to look at realignment of 364 perhaps from 481 across to
269, but that is not what I was asking about.
I realize that has been in the works for some time, and I would like to
get a report from the minister as to how that has progressed, that section.
I was dealing with the section immediately
west of Rorketon, the five miles or so that go directly west from Rorketon.
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, while the staff is looking
specifically on the area straight west of Rorketon, I wanted to bring him up to
date on the realignment which would be opposite 481 going straight west to
364. Application was made. That is where the actual intention was to go
through there. That goes right beside,
if I can recall having driven that road, a wildlife management area. We have not been able to get the
environmental licence that is required.
So that thing has been sort of sitting there spinning on empty, nothing
happening.
Now I will try to address the concern that
he had on 364 going west of Rorketon.
Madam Chairperson, the member is not going to be very happy with my
reply, but it was slated for survey design in the '87‑88 year, and we
have not totally completed that yet.
Once that is completed, then it would be one of the projects,
acquisition of right‑of‑way, that is coming up for consideration in
this year's program. So that is where it
is at.
Mr. Plohman: Well, guilty as charged here, Mr.
Minister. You have had, what, seven
years or six years to do that small section for survey and design, and he still
does not have it done. So it has not
been exactly a high priority.
I would ask the minister to see if he can
include both of those projects. When I
talk about priorities and talk about the south Mallard road as a small project,
this one is not a large project, but it certainly is one that is desperately
needed in the area and one that the community has let the minister know is a
priority for the area. They have just
recently sent a petition that was done a number of years ago when we began that
road for survey and design; they have recirculated that to the minister. I sent
him a letter as well on that.
I hope that he can get that in for
acquisition of right‑of‑way this year because the little bit that
is left on survey design, I am sure, would not take his engineers very long to
do. So if he can get that done and get
the acquisition started this year, I am sure that it would be something that we
could report to the community as a very positive move.
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, unless the member is under
the impression that I am relying totally on staff for some of this information,
I can assure the member that very often, when these requests come in, I have
had the occasion to actually drive that whole area out there myself to know
exactly what it is about. I can empathize
and sympathize with the fact that a lot of these roads basically serve the
rural area and the requirement is there to upgrade.
Again, without wanting to repeat
extensively the fact that we still have close to 5,000 kilometres‑‑no,
it is not that many anymore‑‑maybe about 4,000, 3,500, 4,000
kilometres of PRs that we just have not upgraded, and we are trying to bring
them forward as we can, giving consideration to the fact that our major PTH
system is suffering as well, and we try to keep our major arteries upgraded to
a stage. So it is an ongoing challenge
that I face, as he faced when he was minister responsible, in terms of
determining where we should do it.
I do not even play politics with this
because, as the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) knows, as the Minister of
Rural Development (Mr. Derkach) knows, the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr.
Enns), as we travel through the province, people make their concerns known to
us, and we try to address them within the realm of financial possibility that
we can.
* (1530)
So I just want to indicate to the member
that these roads‑‑one always gets a better understanding of them
when one travels them themselves, and I prefer to do that and have done that in
this case. I take the member's request
for having something done on this as notice.
Mr. Plohman: Madam Chairperson, I just want to respond to
the minister from the point of view that, if it has taken seven years to do the
survey and design on this little section of road, you cannot say maybe that politics
is being played, but it certainly is not getting any political priority from
the minister.
So whatever way he wants to phrase that, I
am sure one down in the area of 302 or some of those sections, 205, 216, in
that area of the province in southeastern
So I think it is their turn in this one,
Madam Chairperson, to the minister. I
think that, insofar as Rorketon is concerned west there, it is about coming up to
their turn. If the minister can give
that a little push now, I think his colleague for Ste. Rose should also be
appreciative of that because it used to be part of his constituency and is
certainly close by there. No. 276 is the
tie‑in to Rorketon from Ste. Rose, and maybe he can talk with his
colleague and see that that little job in there is done. I say that little job, when I am talking
relatively to the other construction that is being done in other areas of the
province and give that a high priority for that area.
I want to ask the minister about a couple
of other roads‑‑68 through the
Can the minister give an update on the
priority that that is receiving at the present time‑‑68 from No. 6
Highway, but from the
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, I know that you are at a
disadvantage and cannot get involved in the debate. I want to note that little sign that you put
up there, you know, promoting 210, I will take that as notice as well.
An Honourable Member: Did I raise that one for you?
Mr. Driedger: No, but certainly Madam Chairperson thought
that this might be an appropriate time to just broaden the perspective in terms
of requirements throughout the province.
On 68 we have just finished a further
shoulder widening and gravel on seven‑point‑some kilometres through
that area‑‑big major stretches.
So there is always a fair amount of dollar value involved with them that
we continue to take and do that on a staged basis. The acquisition of 20 kilometres for
acquisition of right‑of‑way, that is the next stretch and a further
stretch. We have one where we are doing the acquisition of right‑of‑way,
and the next stretch we are doing the survey design. So we are moving with it in stages, and we
just completed the shoulder widening and gravel.
The duration on that portion where we have
done the shoulder widening and the gravel on the shoulders, we have 21.3
kilometres that is now available for base and AST to the tune of $2.6
million. So as we do this in stages, the
shoulder widening, then we take a bigger shot and do the base and AST. We get a better price that way. It is not base and AST, it is pavement
because it is a PTH‑‑my mistake.
I just misread this here. A stretch
there of 23.6 kilometres, continuing the stages, where we have the right‑of‑way
and we have, not a big deal, but we have utility revisions in place.
The next step would be the grade widening
and shoulder gravel and then we have a structure in there yet, and ultimately
of course that stretch is a dandy one because the pavement would cost us $3.8
million. As I am putting this on the
record, I want to assure the member that it is in the mix and it is going forward
in stages, whether it is survey design, whether it is the acquisition of right‑of‑way,
whether it is utility revisions or whether the grading of the shoulders and the
paving itself. So these recommendations
are coming forward in stages from staff and we are trying to accommodate them. So there is ongoing action out there.
Mr. Plohman: I thank the minister for that. That is a road I use frequently, and
certainly there is a need for the grading work to continue, especially on the
23 kilometres the minister said is ready to go for grading, grade widen,
shoulder work and the paving on the section that has already been completed
insofar as that work is concerned.
I imagine the minister would have traffic
counts on that for the PTH, the latest traffic counts. I wonder if he would have them handy at this
time. Maybe he could give me that when
he is responding to requests regarding the No. 20 from
On 480, from 582 to No. 5, that road was
paved at one time to Makinak; there is an elevator there. It was turned back from grade to gravel when
construction was done because of the poor condition, the poor construction of
the initial road. It had to be torn up
and broken and turned back into gravel, so the people are still asking when
that might be considered once again for paving.
So that is the section of 480, from 582 to No. 5.
So I will just ask the minister about
those two before I have a couple of other questions on other roads, and then I
will turn this over to my colleague. The
member for
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, the traffic count on 68
varies anywhere from 450 to 880, depending on which portion of the road‑‑you
know, closer to the communities you have a higher a higher traffic count. I do not know whether the member wants it
broken down, because if you can recall, between every so and so many such
distances, they have the traffic counts.
There, if he feels it is of importance, I have given him the range, from
450 to 880. If he wants more detail, I
would have to have staff maybe respond by way of correspondence somewhere along
the line.
On Highway 20 from
* (1540)
Sorry, Madam Chairperson, correction‑‑the
right-of-way has been secured on the property.
We are talking of the 12.4 kilometres from PTH 5 to
Four other structures are 30 feet by 36
feet wide but not proposed for replacement as they are structurally and
hydraulically adequate.
What we have there for that is grade
widening and shoulder gravel. The
estimated cost is $1.1 million, the structural for $340,000. That is what is up for consideration under this
year's approval program.
Mr. Plohman: Yes, I will just mention to the minister that
the initial upgrading was done from Dauphin to Dauphin Beach and the remainder
is badly needed, as the minister has mentioned, 26 years old and badly cracked
pavement. There is a lot of traffic on
that road, heavy traffic, I believe, relatively for a PTH compared to say the
one we just talked about. I hope the
minister will consider that program urgently.
I also want to mention a couple of others
in the interest of time, Madam Chairperson.
Other colleagues want to raise concerns.
I would bring to the minister's attention 362 from Dauphin to Sifton,
which was proposed for shoulder widening and has no shoulders basically on it
at all. It is very dangerous with heavy
equipment, with farm equipment on it and cars being met because there is
absolutely nowhere to pull off; you go off the pavement and you are off into
the ditch just like you would be on, I think, it is 207 or something like that
number in the Whiteshell.
I do not know if anybody has driven
through the Whiteshell where some of the pavement is about a foot thick and if
you drop off you are right in the ditch.
There is no shoulder whatsoever.
This is a similar type of situation on 362 from Dauphin to Sifton,
particularly the first few miles there.
Also, 274 north of
One other I will mention to the minister
that is always raised as a major concern for tourism purposes and one I am sure
the minister is well aware of and his colleagues have made him well aware of is
that running into the Duck Mountain park. Because of the destination point as a
tourism destination, it is an important area where roads mean a lot to the
level of activity and a potential there for expansion of tourism is great, and
366 north of
I mention those as additional priorities
from our area of the province, from my constituency, and ask the minister to
keep in mind, particularly from a safety point of view, those ones without
shoulders. I think that is one he has to
consider immediately, get the survey and design done and the acquisition so he
can get those shoulders done, because it is very dangerous.
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, I have noted the roads
that the member has put on the record.
I just want to say that ironically the
criticism comes forward to the department very often that when we design roads
that we design them too extensively with wide shoulders. Very often the temptation has been, I think,
in the past and sometimes the temptation is there even now just to do a
pavement or a base and AST on existing road and then it serves the purpose for
awhile but in the long run we lose the‑‑it is not economically
efficient to do that.
In spite of the fact that very often when
my engineers say we have to do the shoulder widening so that we can take and
establish a proper road and put a proper pavement or base and AST in there that
if we do not do it that way then exactly what the member has made reference to
on 274 where they did the paving, and then ultimately the road has to now be
done again.
I just say that because whoever is responsible
for the department invariably runs into that temptation to fight with staff to
say, do we have to be that extensive. I
am convinced after being here for five years that that is the route that we
have to go. If we are going to do the
job, let us do it.
An Honourable Member: Well, this was done many, many years ago.
Mr. Driedger: Yes.
Mr. Bob Rose (
I had one of my constituents tell me not
very long ago that he was 80 years old and had never seen a paving
machine. I think perhaps he was
exaggerating a little bit. I do not want
to take too much time today.
An Honourable Member: Is he a Tory?
Mr. Rose: Well, he is now.
I just want to ask the minister a few questions
relative to some projects that have already been considered and see if we can
find out just what the situation is with these particular projects.
The first one that I know that has been
under some consideration for some time is PR 340, north of Wawanesa. That particular road eventually ends up in
the Shilo area, and as we all know, the soils to that particular area are not
conducive to building the best roads in the world. It is very sandy. In fact, it is the area that they use for
army training and artillery training.
The people in the area tell me that some
parts of the road are pretty well deteriorated to nothing, that it is very
difficult to maintain because of the soil conditions. They cannot use rotary plows in the wintertime,
and it is difficult to use graders because of those conditions.
I understand that this stretch of road has
been under consideration for quite some time, and I would just like to ask the
minister, what stage are you at on the development of PR 340, north of Wawanesa?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, the member is probably
aware that in the approval process last year that the approval was given to
proceed with 340. What has happened is,
in fact, ultimately the staff was agonizing and looking at the consideration of
having the 340 actually be an extension of PTH 18. With the crossing that was involved, the
structure that was involved, Black Creek, I am told, there was some concern as
to the type of structure that should be‑‑whether we should revise
it from a PR status to a PTH status because under the PTH system, we allow 100
kilometres an hour speed limit.
In our discussions with some of the people
from the area, and I appreciated the member's input into this over a period of
time‑‑we are prepared to proceed with the tender process.
* (1550)
Application has now been made for the
environmental licence. Once we have achieved that, it would be anticipation,
because of the previous approval, to basically proceed with the tender for the
reconstruction as well as the structure itself.
We anticipate that should happen, hopefully, within the next two months.
As soon as we have the environmental
licence, the decision has now been made that, in terms of the structure itself,
the access onto the structure, because of the indecision to some degree about
the structure itself and with our anticipating eventually having it be an
extension of a PTH, we feel confident that once we have the structure in place
we will be able to accommodate the standards for it to be an extension of the
PTH. So there should be no delay in that regard. Once we have the environmental licence, I am
pushing staff to move forward to have it tendered as soon as possible.
Mr. Rose: I would like to thank the honourable minister
for that. I know it is difficult for him
to make any kind of predictions on environmental study, given the number of
crocus fields and ducks' nests there are in that particular area. Could he hazard a guess as to when the
environmental study would be completed?
In other words, you mentioned in your answer, two or three months. Can we reasonably expect construction to
begin sometime this year?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, staff tells me that a two‑month
expectation to get the environmental licence would be a reasonable expectation. I want to give the assurance that we will try
and expedite it as fast as possible, because this is one of the projects that
basically has had approval to proceed.
The requirements in terms of the tendering
process are all basically met. We will
push for the expediency on the environmental licence and then make sure that we
get it tendered as fast as possible. I
fully expect that there is going to be substantial construction taking place,
if not completed, this year depending on weather conditions.
Mr. Rose: Another section, another PR road in
I would like to ask the minister what
progress is being made on PR 347, south of No. 2 Highway?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, I beg a little bit of
patience here. We are spending‑‑it
is hard to put on record exactly how much documentation we have here, but it is
very substantive. So it just takes a
little time until we get it checked. I
have it on my map here. We are just
trying to get information, exactly what the status is.
Madam Chairperson, I want to do this in
stages. That nine kilometres going south
from No. 2 on 347, the survey design has been completed and it is up for
consideration for the acquisition of right-of-way for the first nine kilometres
going south. That is all we have.
(Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Chairperson, in the
Chair)
On the portion of 347 going east to the 22
we have nothing in the program at the present time, I guess mainly because the
traffic count is substantially lower. I
think it is 70 or less than 70 vehicles a day.
So we feel that there are other roads at the present time, subject to
the member's or the people's lobby of course, but at the present time that is
all we have. We have the first nine
kilometres going south under survey design.
That has come in completed and we are looking at acquisition of right‑of‑way
on that.
Mr. Rose: Thank you.
I think the principal concern of the local people was just a small
portion between
PR 346 south from Highway No. 2‑‑as
the minister knows, there is a bridge there.
It is commonly called McKeller's bridge, but I do not know if that is
how the Department of Highways designates it.
I know that the minister is aware that this bridge, while it has not
been condemned, is certainly not capable of handling any kind of heavy
traffic. People on the south side of the
Souris River are particularly interested in the progress of a new bridge there
for the very good reason that they are presently served by the CNR line through
Margaret, Minto, Ninette, Elgin and that area.
The only access they have to a CP line
would be across the
I would like to ask the minister what the
status is of the bridge and PR 346 from, I guess it comes from Highway 23 right
through to Highway 2.
Mr. Driedger: Mr. Acting Chairperson, the member gives a
pretty good assessment of the road itself.
What we sometimes start off with is thinking it is just a matter of
doing the design and doing the reconstruction.
In some cases it turns out to be much more complex and much more difficult
than that, and 346 is definitely one of those.
We have a structure across the
* (1600)
I do not want to raise any early expectations
from the member as we go through that process.
Anytime we have the concerns flagged environmentally, the process gets
to be a little longer, but I feel confident that we want to move ahead with
this project and that we will try and see whether we can alleviate those
concerns. We cannot really complete the
design on the bridge until we know exactly where we want to ultimately locate
the bridge. I will try and get a further
update from what I have given now in terms of some time frame and try and work
together with the member in terms of seeing whether we can alleviate some of
the concerns that are being brought forward already.
Mr. Rose: Mr. Acting Chairperson, PR 440 south from
Highway No. 3, I would like to thank the minister and the department for
responding a year or so ago and rebuilding a portion of the road that was badly
deteriorated. We were getting heavy
rains in the middle of the summer there, and it got to the point where it was
almost impassable. I appreciated the
fact that it was tendered and completed in a hurry in response to that even
though preliminary work of course had been done.
As the minister will know, the southern
portion, about 10 kilometres or so has not been completed. It will eventually hook into PR 253. Currently the southern portion of 440 goes
through the
A number of the local people‑‑in
fact, I have a petition with 200 or 300 names on it, along with some of the
local jurisdictions who are suggesting that there should be a new routing on PR
440 on the southern end so it would link up with PR 253 a mile or two to the
west and avoid going out of the Pembina Valley at all. Has there been any thought given to
this? Is that under consideration?
Mr. Driedger: Mr. Acting Chairperson, the member is
correct. A portion of that has been
upgraded last year. We are looking at
the balance of it, which we have another 9.5 kilometres which is under
consideration for survey and design to do the completion of that. If we bring that forward for survey design,
that next 9.5 kilometres, at that time consideration would be given in terms of
whether we would have a new alignment or not.
The next step is to bring it forward for survey design and then consideration
would be given as to whether we would take and go with a new alignment or not.
Mr. Rose: Right in the town of Boissevain there is a‑‑and
I will get away from the roads in the area and note that we have only asked the
minister about a very few kilometres, so we are looking forward to next year
that, hopefully, there will be an increase in the road building and road
improvement program in the constituency of Turtle Mountain. Some of the questions that we have asked the
last few minutes, as I say, have only addressed a very small number of the
many, many miles of roads that we have in
I want to come into the town of
I have had a number of requests from the
Town Council and the R.M. that consideration be given to that because that
happens to be the area where the school is located right on the highway and
also the rinks and the fairgrounds and swimming pool. In fact, all the recreation facilities in
Boissevain are located in that part of the town, so they need to control the
traffic a little more. It is probably
greater on the north side of the tracks than it is on the south.
I would just like to ask the minister if
any consideration is being given to making that portion of No. 10 Highway in
the town of
Mr. Driedger: Mr. Acting Chairperson, at the present time
there has been no activity designed to take place in terms of four‑laning
on the other side of the track. Staff
feel that the traffic does not warrant it, but this is something that I am
prepared to undertake with the member to further consider together with the
community and the member in terms of seeing whether we would want to proceed on
that basis which then would, of course, have to be prioritized in terms of
getting the design done.
Maybe the member can give me further
advice as to his rationale for why it should be four‑laned or some of the
reasons. This is not what we have on
record at the present time, so I would be prepared to further discuss it with
the member to see whether we can develop the kind of rationale that is required
to bring this forward as an extended four‑lane in the town of Boissevain.