LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Friday, May 14, 1993

 

The House met at 10 a.m.

     

PRAYERS

     

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

     

PRESENTING PETITIONS

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Kari Kennedy, Kim La Rocque, Sheryl Robertson and others requesting the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 1993‑94 budget.

* * *

Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Errol Wilson, Walter Spence, Brenda Thomas and others requesting the Family Services minister (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba.

* * *

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of R.F. Smith, Leo Spitzke, Harry Bushrnay and others requesting the Manitoba Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) to consider conducting a plebiscite of Manitoba farmers as soon as possible on the issue of removing barley from the jurisdiction of the Wheat Board.

* * *

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk):   Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Katie Wipf, Jack Wipf, Ann Wipf and others requesting the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 1993‑94 budget.

 

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

 

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Ms. Wowchuk).  It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed]

Mr. Clerk (William Remnant):  The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

      WHEREAS the Canadian Wheat Board has played a vital role in the orderly marketing of Canadian wheat, barley and other grain products since its inception in 1935; and

      WHEREAS the federal Minister of Agriculture is considering removing barley from the jurisdiction of the Wheat Board; and

      WHEREAS this is another step towards dismantling the board; and

      WHEREAS, as in the case with the removal of oats from the Wheat Board in 1989, there has been no consultation with the board of directors of the Wheat Board, with the 11‑member advisory committee to the board or the producers themselves; and

      WHEREAS the federal minister has said that there will be no plebiscite of farmers before the announcement is made.

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Manitoba Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) to consider conducting a plebiscite of Manitoba farmers on this issue as soon as possible.

* * *

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Hickes).  It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed]

Mr. Clerk:  The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

      WHEREAS the United Nations has declared 1993 the International Year of the World's Indigenous People with the theme, "Indigenous People:  a new partnership"; and

      WHEREAS the provincial government has totally discontinued funding to all friendship centres; and

      WHEREAS the provincial government has stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and

      WHEREAS the elimination of all funding to friendship centres will result in the loss of many jobs as well as the services and programs provided, such as:  assistance to the elderly, the homeless, youth programming, the socially disadvantaged, families in crisis, education, recreation and cultural programming, housing relocation, fine options, counselling, court assistance, advocacy;

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Family Services minister to consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba.

* * *

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mrs. Carstairs).  It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed]

Mr. Clerk:  The petition of the undersigned residents of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

      WHEREAS the Misericordia General Hospital has served Winnipeg for over 95 years; and

      WHEREAS the Misericordia General Hospital has a long record of dedication and service to its local community and the broader Winnipeg community; and

      WHEREAS the Misericordia General Hospital is identified by the residents in the surrounding area as "their hospital"; and

      WHEREAS the Misericordia Hospital plays an integral part in maintaining and promoting the health of the community; and

      WHEREAS the Misericordia Hospital provides diverse services including emergency, ambulatory care, diagnostic and inpatient services, acute and chronic care which are vital to the community; and

      WHEREAS the Misericordia Hospital is currently engaged in developing innovative and progressive community‑based outreach programs; and

      WHEREAS the Misericordia Hospital is ideally located to be within the "hub" of the health care delivery network for Winnipeg.

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly urge the government of Manitoba to consider keeping the Misericordia Hospital open as an acute care facility.

 

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

     

Bill 34‑The Public Schools Amendment (Francophone Schools Governance) Act

 

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the First Minister (Mr. Filmon), that Bill 34, The Public Schools Amendment (Francophone Schools Governance) Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur les ecoles publiques (gestion des ecoles francaises), be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time.

      His Honour the Lieutenant‑Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House, and I would like to table the message.

Motion agreed to.

* (1005)

 

Introduction of Guests

      Mr. Speaker:  Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this morning from the Elmdale Elementary School, sixty Grade 5 students under the direction of Ms. Sylvia Baker and Mr. Dave Driedger.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger).

      On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this morning.

     

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

     

New Careers Program

Funding Reduction–Cost Benefit

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier (Mr. Filmon).

      Manitoba has had two very unique education and training programs over the last couple of decades to deal with the growing population of aboriginal people, and the high unemployment rate and the high poverty rate for aboriginal people.

      Those programs have been ACCESS and New Careers, among other programs.  The New Careers program was a program that was almost sacrificed by the Sterling Lyon task force on the economy.  It was a vice‑president of Great‑West Life who recommended we get rid of it, and even Sterling Lyon said no to getting rid of the New Careers program or reducing the New Careers program because he understood‑‑even Sterling Lyon understood‑‑that it had an 85 percent retention rate over two‑year training programs, which was one of the most successful programs, and a 95 percent job success rate.

      The government has cut $1.7 million out of this program.  Two years ago we used to have 360 people in that program.  This year we are down to 210.

      What is the cost benefit for our Manitoba economy, the cutbacks that have been approved at the Premier's level in the Estimates process?  What are the cost benefits for the reductions that this Premier approved?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  The amount that the member has spoken about is not entirely correct. It does not relate entirely to the New Careers program.  When we get to that budget line within the Estimates, I think he will see that a good portion of that reduction, over $800,000 of it, relates to another vocational school program within this province.

 

Training Period

Reduction

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, I asked the minister and the Premier for a cost‑benefit, results of the cutback that she has made.  It has gone down $1.7 million.  The clients have gone down from '90‑91, from 360 down to 210 in her own Estimates book.

      We have also been informed that there may be a reduction in the time period allocated for trainees.  I would like to ask the Premier, will there be a reduction in the training period, which has been two years for New Careers trainees?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  As I have answered in this House before, we have had to look at a number of reductions across government and this was a very difficult process for all ministries and for government as a whole.  However, we were able to maintain a commitment to our New Careers program, and we also maintain a commitment to its community‑based style.

 

Funding Reinstatement

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  There were tough decisions made.  The Tories raised the amount of money ready for corporate orientation programs, which were traditionally paid by the companies; they raised it in this year's budget by about $1.5 million.  They took the amount of money for‑‑they went from $3.5 million to over $5 million in this budget.  They took the money for aboriginal people, for underemployed people, for people in poverty, in New Careers training programs, the people who are the most vulnerable, that have had a high, 95 percent success ratio, and reduced that by almost the same amount of money, in fact, a little bit more, coincidentally, in this program.

      We understand that the Minister of Education whimsically wrote a note to her staff, saying that she did not think there was any success in the New Careers program.  On that whimsical statement alone, corporate orientation was improved by $1.5 million, and aboriginal training and New Careers were reduced.

      Will the Premier (Mr. Filmon) now do what Sterling Lyon did and intervene in the callous decisions of his government and reinstate the funding for New Careers program in the province of Manitoba?

* (1010)

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, as I said, this government has had to make a number of difficult decisions.  We have looked very carefully at the Advanced Education and Skills Training portion of our department.  We are now reorganizing that department; we have moved into our department programs which were previously in the Department of Family Services, which also look at community‑based training.  We also have literacy programs which also are community‑based training.  We have maintained a commitment to the style of programming that New Careers offered; we have also maintained a budget line for New Careers.

      Let me remind the Leader of the Opposition that he said in 1989, cabinet ministers on a daily basis have to say no to people, have to say no again to people, and I respect that.  It is the job that goes with the territory.

 

ACCESS Programs

Exclusions

 

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley):  Mr. Speaker, when the government in its Estimates cut 16 percent from the ACCESS programs, what this may mean is that at the Winnipeg Education Centre, for example, only those who have external funds, or who can find the fees in other ways, will be able to enter the program.

      I want to ask the minister:  Is it her intention to change this particular program so that it will exclude non‑Status Indians and immigrant people and the inner‑city poor, the people for whom it was in part originally designed?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, we have had to look at, again, a number of budget decisions also in the ACCESS area.  But, as I have explained to the member before, the ACCESS program funding did flow partly through the federal government, and they have changed the way in which they are funding their students in the program.

      We have maintained a commitment to ACCESS programs.  We assisted students last year to make sure that they would be able to finish their programs.  We are now working with the institutions to look at how we can perhaps reduce the administrative costs of the ACCESS programs to provide the greatest amount of support to students in the student support area.

Ms. Friesen:  Mr. Speaker, the minister has not answered my question.

      Is it her intention to exclude from this program people who are not funded through external sources?

Mrs. Vodrey:  Mr. Speaker, again, as I have said to the member, the ACCESS programming and the funding which flows from this government does cover two parts of support:  one is support to students, and another is support to the administrative structure.  So we are now looking to work with the institutions so that we can provide the greatest amount of support to students within the ACCESS program and maintain an intake.

 

Students' External Funding

     

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley):  Mr. Speaker, will there be students taken into the ACCESS program this year who have any funding other than band funding?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, we are looking at the intakes into the ACCESS program at this time; we are looking also at the programs that those students are applying for.  When we have all that information, I will be able to let the honourable member know.

 

ACCESS Programs

Winnipeg Education Centre

 

Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood):  Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education has been speaking this morning about the ACCESS program at the Winnipeg Education Centre and speaks about the fact that there are ongoing discussions with her department.

      Can the minister tell this House today, because we do have students who are waiting to see if they can get into this program, when can these students and when can the Winnipeg Education Centre expect an answer from her department as to the status of that program?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, we are working as quickly as possible with the institutions, and we will be letting the institutions know as quickly as possible.  We understand the importance for students.

Ms. Gray:  Mr. Speaker, the intake part of the program was to begin on May 3, so we are already behind schedule.

      Could the minister be a little bit more specific?  Can she tell us when we can expect an answer and when we can let students know about that particular program?

Mrs. Vodrey:  Mr. Speaker, again, I have said to the member, we will be letting the students know as quickly as possible.  We are attempting to work with the institutions.  We want to make sure that we have the greatest amount of money available to assist students into the program.  That is why we are looking for administrative cost savings.

* (1015)

 

Alternative Funding

     

Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood):  Mr. Speaker, I understand that the University of Manitoba will not be giving any money to this program and in fact they have not in the past.

      Can the minister tell this House today:  Is her department prepared to look at any type of funding for this particular program or is that definitely not an option?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, the member has been speaking about ACCESS programs and now she speaks about another program.  Perhaps we will be able to discuss in detail her concerns during the Estimates process.

 

Government Departments

Service Co-ordination

     

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, I would like to respond to a question taken as notice from the member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs) on Tuesday.

      Questions were raised regarding the Reid report and I would like to indicate, if one takes the time to comprehend the recommendations of Judge Norton, one would find that in fact he was addressing the co‑ordination of information between Child and Family Services and other social agencies and police authorities, not co‑ordination of services and information between departments of this government.

      In any event, Mr. Speaker, I would indicate that we have taken a number of steps with the Reid report.  We have centralized the Child and Family Services in Winnipeg to enable partners in the system to address system‑wide issues more effectively.  We have implemented a standard on the reporting of firearms and other weapons requiring Child and Family Services agencies to document and report the actual or potential use of weapons.  We have implemented a Child and Family Services information system.

      I would like to respond to the second part of the question, and I would like to table some documents today to show that there are some protocols between departments of government.  The first document is the Manitoba Guidelines on Identifying and Reporting a Child in Need of Protection.  The second document is a protocol entitled Transition Planning Process, which outlines the process for developing individual transition plans.  The third document is a Referral Process to the Interdepartmental Crisis Resource Committee, and the fourth document is a Provincial Advisory Committee on Child Abuse.

      I will table those documents now, Mr. Speaker.

 

Flin Flon/Creighton Crisis Centre

Government Support

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  Mr. Speaker, the cuts that this government have imposed on Manitobans across the province have targeted those people who can least afford it, who need the support most, and that includes the Flin Flon Crisis Centre.

      Mr. Speaker, on Wednesday I met with the chairperson of the Flin Flon/Creighton Crisis Centre board.  He indicated that the board had met on Tuesday evening of this week and had come to a decision to reopen the crisis centre to operate as best they can to provide services to the women, children and abused families in crisis and in abusive situations in Flin Flon and region.

      My question to the Minister of Family Services is:  Will he now instruct his department to work with the Flin Flon/Creighton Crisis Centre board to ensure that the normal guidelines which shelters and crisis centres follow are in place as quickly as possible in Flin Flon?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, I indicated a number of weeks ago that our staff are prepared to meet with the board of the crisis centre.  A meeting had been set up a couple of weeks ago and was postponed because the audit that the centre was doing was not completed.  We have had a request from the crisis centre board to have staff meet with them, and we will do that as soon as we can find a mutually agreeable time.

Mr. Storie:  Mr. Speaker, the minister is trying to pretend that this meeting was to do something other than wind down the services.

      My question to the Minister of Family Services is:  Is the minister now conceding that the services are required and his department is now prepared to work with the people of Flin Flon, the city of Flin Flon, and the board to re‑establish those services, and it will be supported by the minister's department?

Mr. Gilleshammer:  No, Mr. Speaker.  What I have indicated and what I indicated a number of weeks ago is that staff from the department are prepared to meet with the board of the Flin Flon Crisis Centre.

      The member attempts to portray this as a community without services.  I have indicated in the past that services are provided through the Northern Women's Resource Centre, that we have a 24‑hour crisis line, and we have the RCMP and volunteers who are prepared to transport people to The Pas shelter.

* (1020)

Mr. Storie:  Mr. Speaker, the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) told representatives of Flin Flon city council this decision was political.  What I want today is a political decision on the part of the Minister of Family Services to reopen the centre, to fund the centre.

      My question is:  Will the Department of Family Services be providing per diems for women and children who use the centre after it is reopened?  Will the department be providing per diems?

Mr. Gilleshammer:  Mr. Speaker, I reject the preamble of the member for Flin Flon as being factually incorrect.  What I have indicated is that staff from the department have been prepared and are prepared to meet with the centre board in Flin Flon.

 

Business Practices Act

Amendments

 

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood):  Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.

      Tower Funding, a company which charges advance fees of between $120 and $295 to find lenders for people with poor credit ratings, has been operating in this city for the last few months.

      I would like to ask the minister:  Will she agree to restore the unconscionable act section that this government removed from The Business Practices Act?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Consumer and Corporate  Affairs): I should indicate, and the member knows this full well, that the wording of the BPA‑‑his interpretation and my interpretation of the wording in the BPA differ slightly.  I am backed in my support of that wording by the Manitoba Society of Seniors, the Better Business Bureau, the Retail Council of Canada, the CFIB, department officials, the Consumers' Association of Canada, the Manitoba Chamber, the Winnipeg Chamber, and a few other people.

      I think that perhaps we have an act that fits the needs of those who have identified what they want to see in the act, and I am very pleased that we are able to do investigations under that act as we are at the moment.

 

Tower Funding Investigation

     

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood):  Mr. Speaker, the proof is in the pudding.  Only nine charges have been laid under that act.

      Mr. Speaker, to the minister:  Yesterday she said the police would do her job, but the police have said they may not be able to do it, because it is a borderline case.

      My question to the minister is that she has sat on this case for over a month.  Why has she sat on this case for over a month while consumers in this province are getting bilked?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs):  First of all, Mr. Speaker, we have not sat on this case for over a month.  Our first complaint came to us some three weeks ago; we took immediate action and have been acting since that time.

      The member's preamble is just as inaccurate today as it was yesterday when he said the police did not even know about it, and I do not even want today to comment on some of the preamble.

      What I will say in terms of the BPA is that he is talking about the number of cases that have come to court.  We have made it very, very clear since the beginning that one of the prime things we were hoping with the BPA is that we would be able to have hammers available that would enable us to settle some of these things without having to go to court.

      I should indicate we are working on a daily basis with the BPA.  Eighty percent of the things that come to our attention are successfully resolved through mediation, and we feel that we are having great success with it, and that success is confirmed by those who have had experience in working on that act with us, including the police.

Mr. Maloway:  That answer is no more credible than it was yesterday, Mr. Speaker.

 

Business Practices Act

Minister's Awareness

 

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood):  My final supplementary to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs is:  Has she read the act and does she understand Sections 2(1), 2(3), 2(2) and Section 15?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs):  Mr. Speaker, I helped write the act, so I have read it.

      I would like to indicate that the act was drafted with the assistance of the Marketplace Advisory Group Committee composed of components of society from all walks of life.

      I would also like to indicate that perhaps the member should read the act, because yesterday he referred to Section 15 when he should have been referring to Section 16.

* (1025)

 

Health Care System Reform

Communication Strategy

 

Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The Maples):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

      Today is the first anniversary of the minister's Health Action Plan.  We have supported, encouraged and backed the minister for the last year.

      On page 3 of this action plan, it calls for participation of Manitobans and their families, but instead of involving Manitobans in this decision‑making process, there has been a fear created in the minds of the public.

      Since the action plan was introduced one year ago re health reform, we have produced two Health Reform Monitors and I will table those two health monitors.

      My question is for the Minister of Health:  This is a major plan.  Can the minister now tell this House when he will introduce his own health monitor report to make sure that the public is not put under unnecessary fear because of some of the people who are narrow‑minded who are spreading the false news about the health care reform in this province?

 

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, when I woke up this morning, I knew there was something special about this day, but I had forgotten that it was the year anniversary of the introduction of the Health Action Plan.

      Seriously, I very much appreciate the objective manner in which my honourable friend has approached health care reform in the province of Manitoba, because it has demonstrated that the reform and change in restructuring of the health care system that is happening in every single province from Newfoundland to British Columbia, regardless of political affiliation of the governing party, whether it be Liberals in New Brunswick, New Democrats in Ontario or Saskatchewan, Conservatives in Alberta, the process of change is ongoing.

      Now, Mr. Speaker, what we have attempted to do as much as possible is to very much involve professionals in the public of Manitoba in terms of arriving at the decision‑making process.

      I will have to admit to my honourable friend that one of the difficulties, one of the flaws in the whole process of change, is the ability to provide information on process of change to the public at large.  Mr. Speaker, we are attempting to resolve that.

Mr. Cheema:  Mr. Speaker, it is a major plan, and the people of Manitoba want to know what is happening.

      Can the minister now make a promise in this House that he will release the plan within a few weeks time, so that every stakeholder will know what is exactly going on?

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, I take my honourable friend's suggestion seriously, but here is the dilemma.  I will be very direct with my honourable friends.  Part of the communication strategy that we have considered is in terms of an update that would be available for fairly general mailing.  I know that from my honourable friends‑‑not my honourable friends in the second opposition party‑‑I fully can hear the cries of despair from the New Democrats that we are propagandizing the process of health care reform, et cetera.

      Being very conscious to that kind of criticism, we are attempting, Sir, to put out informational brochures in terms of the status of the changes that are happening to take away some of the inappropriate statements made from time to time, particularly by the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), where he has misinformed the people of Manitoba about status of different changes, and to avoid confusion in the system.

* (1030)

Mr. Cheema:  Mr. Speaker, to make the minister's point, will the minister now commit to have this independent monitor to make sure that some misinformation which is already being provided by some narrow interest groups is not given out?‑‑because 1.1 million people are concerned more about health care than the political partisanship that we are playing in this House.

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, I hope we can develop mechanisms to offset that.

      One of my honourable friend's legitimate concerns was in terms of a mechanism of reviewing the process to make sure that we did not miss legitimate operational difficulties in terms of the change.  To date, I think the reliance on experts on health care delivery in Manitoba has resolved most of those difficulties within the existing process.

      I have been able to, as much as possible, rely on some of those leaders who have been taking on the initiatives of change to inform and to sort of take some of the wrong information, if that is the right phraseology, out of the change process. However, we are contemplating a wider communication process on health care reform, which, I hope, will resolve some of the other problems attached to the process of change.

 

Home Care Supply Program

User Fees

 

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):  Mr. Speaker, I am certain the minister is aware of a concern raised whereby ostomy supplies are not available to people who depend on them and require them.  I understand the specific matter raised at the minister's office and the Premier's Office yesterday may have been resolved.

      My question to the minister is:  Will he put in place a system at the Home Care Supply program so this does not reoccur, so that people who depend on these supplies will not be in a situation where they have to phone the Premier's Office to get some action?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Yes.

Mr. Chomiak:  Mr. Speaker, I am happy to hear that affirmative answer from the minister for a change.

 

Future Status

 

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):  My second question to the minister is:  Will he give assurances to this House that that program, the Home Care Supply program, will continue, and that it is not on the chopping block?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Yes.

 

Health Care System Reform

Communication Strategy

 

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):  Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary to the minister:  Will he give assurances to this House that his communication strategy and press conference, which is one‑way communication from the minister to the public, will change, and that when he has this massive communication strategy that he is contemplating, will he listen to what the people of Manitoba are saying regarding the shambles of many of the initiatives he has announced in his health care reform plan?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, I was really starting to think my honourable friend was trying to help the process to change, but that last comment of his was terribly offensive.  The people in my ministry are people in Manitoba who recognize the necessity of change, that see change happening in Saskatchewan, Ontario, Alberta, New Brunswick, Quebec, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, British Columbia, right across the length and breadth of this country.

      Mr. Speaker, I want to reinforce to my honourable friend that the changes that we are making in the health care system are changes which are not out of step with our neighbouring provinces to the east and to the west.  Yes, they are difficult decisions. Yes, from time to time they will require contributions from consumers of the services that they were not making before.  But, Sir, that unfortunately is the reality of governing in any province in Canada today, facing the kind of fiscal realities we are.

      I want to remind my honourable friend the New Democrat, when we left government in 1981, the interest bill annually was less than $90 million.  After Howard Pawley and his spending practices, it was‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

 

Education System Clinician Funding

 

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education likes to use terms like process, reform, concern, partners, continuum‑‑ad nauseam and ad infinitum.  The only thing that is a continuum with this minister is her answers in this House.

      She has done this with education reform.  She has done this with ACCESS program, bursaries, whenever she is questioned in this House, but since the minister in one enlightened moment during Estimates actually divulged that there was going to be a cut in funding for special needs kids as a result of the layoff of clinicians, I want to ask the minister today, in the light of this legislative Chamber, whether she will now come straight with the people of Manitoba and tell the people of Manitoba precisely how much money she is cutting from special needs kids as a result of the layoff of 66 clinicians in this province.

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, again, the clinician services are moving from the employment of government to the direct employment of school divisions.  Their employment is being provided for, the cost is being provided for through our funding formula where we have now allowed for a grant for the hiring of clinicians.  As I explained to the honourable member during the Estimates process, that grant was actually increased with our new funding formula.  Therefore, we fully expect that the services will be in place for special needs children.

      In addition, Mr. Speaker, as I explained during the Estimates process, the school divisions are now hiring under the funding formula.  We expect that there will be nine additional clinician positions available.

Mr. Plohman:  Mr. Speaker, she was given an opportunity, and I ask this minister how she can explain her statement, in light of what she said today, that there will be savings to government? Will the minister admit that the savings and the provision of maintenance of service will come only as a result of the offloading onto school divisions, in the additional cost to school divisions, not from this minister's grants?

Mrs. Vodrey:  As I explained to the member, we have not reached all of the budget lines that deal with this through the school funding formula, but as I explained to the member, certain funding is available through the funding formula for clinicians. Then we also provide in our supplementary area of our school funding formula where there are additional expenses and needs.

Mr. Plohman:  Mr. Speaker, she is back to her revolving answers again.  I want to ask this minister:  Will she now come clean with this House, come clean with the people of Manitoba, answer the questions straight?  How much money has she cut from this program, and why is she offloading this onto the school divisions of Manitoba?

Mrs. Vodrey:  As I explained to the member when we discussed this for the first time in Estimates and as we will be discussing it further, I know, when we look in detail at the funding to public schools, there is funding within the funding formula, but in addition, where necessary, there is also funding through the supplementary funding category of our school funding formula.

 

New Careers Program

Funding Reduction Impact

 

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson):  Mr. Speaker, the New Careers program has been one of the most successful programs provided by government in training in the last two decades.  It has been described as a model for North America by an objective study. There is an extensive completion rate.  In fact, employment rates, after three years in the New Careers program, range upwards of 80 percent.

      I just want to ask a very straightforward question to the minister again, because earlier in Question Period she did not answer very straightforward questions.

      What is going to be the impact of the cuts that are taking place in New Careers and in particular the move to one‑year training programs instead of the very successful model of two years?  What is going to be the impact of the cuts?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Part of the success of the New Careers program is that it does have a community‑based source, and communities are able to identify some needs.  They also provide some opportunity for people while they are studying to actually work in this area.  It is a model that I have explained to the member.

      This government has a commitment to, not only through our New Careers programming, but I have explained other programs which also manage with this same model of community‑based commitment. We now have, and I can use the word again, a spectrum of programs now within the Advanced Education and Skills Training section of the Department of Education.

Mr. Ashton:  Mr. Speaker, we now have a spectrum of programs. St. John's‑Ravenscourt does not get cut; corporate training does not get cut, but New Careers, training for aboriginal people gets cut.  I do not care what the minister calls that.

      I want to ask her to explain to the people of northern Manitoba in particular:  What is going to be the impact of the cuts to New Careers?

Mrs. Vodrey:  Again, as the member will know when he has an opportunity to look across our Estimates process for all departments, all departments have had to look at reductions.  We have looked at reductions in addition across the Department of Education.  However, we have maintained funds for the New Careers program.  In addition to that, we have now integrated it within the Advanced Education and Skills Training division of my department, where we are able to look at all of the programs available for Manitobans.

Mr. Ashton:  I will try one more time, Mr. Speaker, because the fact is New Careers has been cut.  I want to ask the minister, and she can perhaps explain why private school funding has not been cut and corporate training has not been cut, but I want to ask one very simple question.

      What is going to be the impact of the cuts to the New Careers program on the students, on the people in northern Manitoba and across Manitoba?  What impact will the cuts have?

Mrs. Vodrey:  Mr. Speaker, I reject the member's preamble, and we will certainly have an opportunity to discuss the accusations he made in his preamble.  He will see how very wrong he is during the Estimates process, and I will be glad to talk about the details.

      In addition, as I have said to the member, we do have a commitment to the North if he is asking specifically about northern programs and opportunities for northern Manitobans.  I discussed those at length yesterday in the Estimates process, as well, a number of opportunities and access points for northern Manitobans into programs of skill training, New Careers, being one program of skills training, and there are others within the Department of Education and Training.

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Repap Manitoba Inc.

Renegotiations

 

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River):  Mr. Speaker, four years ago the government signed the Repap deal and made a promise to the people of Swan River of 250 jobs, a permanent chipper and a service centre.  These promises have been broken as well as the minister's promise to renegotiate the cut area in the Repap area.  People of Swan River want the cut area renegotiated so that they can attract industry.

      Since this government is not interested in economic development in the Swan River area but the people of Swan River are, when is the cut area going to be renegotiated in the Swan River area?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  I thank the member for the question.  That is happening at this time.  Again, it is one of several issues that are being renegotiated, and I should indicate that the government is attempting to free up some additional quota outside of the renegotiating area, Mr. Speaker, as a short‑term interim measure.  We have not been successful to this point in time, but discussions will continue, and indeed I will be meeting with senior people from Repap next week.

 

Forestry Industry‑Swan River

 Meeting Request

 

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River):  Mr. Speaker, will the minister then agree to meet with the people of Swan River to discuss this matter?  They have people who are interested in coming into the area.  Will he meet with them, and will he fulfill his promise? If he cannot fulfill the job promise, at least free up the cut area.

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Mr. Speaker, I feel no guilt with respect to meeting the community of Swan River.  I have met the community two times a year for at least the last two to three years on this issue, and I will relay information to the community as quickly as I have information to relay.