LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Monday, May 17, 1993

 

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

 

PRAYERS

     

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

 

PRESENTING PETITIONS

 

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Christine Maniel, Don Russick, Greg Maniel and others requesting the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 1993‑94 budget.

Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Diane Hofer, Isaac Hofer, Debbie Hofer and others requesting the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 1993‑94 budget.

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Lillian Kleinsasser, Dave Waldner, Joseph Waldner and others requesting the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 1993‑94 budget.

* * *

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Albert Sigurdson, Barbara Tapp, Ken Sigurdson and others requesting the Manitoba Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) to consider conducting a plebiscite of Manitoba farmers as soon as possible on the issue of removing barley from the jurisdiction of the Canadian Wheat Board.

 

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

 

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Storie).  It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed]

Mr. Clerk (William Remnant):  The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

      WHEREAS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and

      WHEREAS over 55,000 children depend upon the Children's Dental Program; and

      WHEREAS several studies have pointed out the cost savings of preventative and treatment health care programs such as the Children's Dental Program; and

      WHEREAS the Children's Dental Program has been in effect for 17 years and has been recognized as extremely cost‑effective and critical for many families in isolated communities; and

      WHEREAS the provincial government did not consult the users of the program or the providers before announcing plans to eliminate 44 of the 49 dentists, nurses and assistants providing this service; and

      WHEREAS preventative health care is an essential component of health care reform.

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 1993‑94 budget.

* * *

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Ms. Wowchuk).  It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed]

Mr. Clerk:  The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

      WHEREAS the Canadian Wheat Board has played a vital role in the orderly marketing of Canadian wheat, barley and other grain products since its inception in 1935; and

      WHEREAS the federal Minister of Agriculture is considering removing barley from the jurisdiction of the Wheat Board; and

      WHEREAS this is another step towards dismantling the board; and

      WHEREAS, as in the case with the removal of oats from the Wheat Board in 1989, there has been no consultation with the board of directors of the Wheat Board, with the 11‑member advisory committee to the board or the producers themselves; and

      WHEREAS the federal minister has said that there will be no plebiscite of farmers before the announcement is made.

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Manitoba Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) to consider conducting a plebiscite of Manitoba farmers on this issue as soon as possible.

* * *

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Hickes).  It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed]

Mr. Clerk:  The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

      WHEREAS the United Nations has declared 1993 the International Year of the World's Indigenous People with the theme, "Indigenous People:  a new partnership"; and

      WHEREAS the provincial government has totally discontinued funding to all friendship centres; and

      WHEREAS the provincial government has stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and

      WHEREAS the elimination of all funding to friendship centres will result in the loss of many jobs as well as the services and programs provided, such as:  assistance to the elderly, the homeless, youth programming, the socially disadvantaged, families in crisis, education, recreation and cultural programming, housing relocation, fine options, counselling, court assistance, advocacy;

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Family Services minister to consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba.

* (1335)

* * *

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Dewar).  It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed]

Mr. Clerk:  The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

      WHEREAS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and

      WHEREAS over 55,000 children depend upon the Children's Dental Program; and

      WHEREAS several studies have pointed out the cost savings of preventative and treatment health care programs such as the Children's Dental Program; and

      WHEREAS the Children's Dental Program has been in effect for 17 years and has been recognized as extremely cost‑effective and critical for many families in isolated communities; and

      WHEREAS the provincial government did not consult the users of the program or the providers before announcing plans to eliminate 44 of the 49 dentists, nurses and assistants providing this service; and

      WHEREAS preventative health care is an essential component of health care reform.

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 1993‑94 budget.

 

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

 

Bill 33‑The Provincial Railways and Consequential Amendments Act

 

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Downey), that Bill 33, The Provincial Railways and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi concernant les chemins de fer provinciaux et apportant des modifications correlatives a d'autres lois), be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time.

      His Honour the Lieutenant‑Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House, and I would like to table the message as well.

Motion agreed to.

 

Bill 35‑The Fisheries Amendment Act

 

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources):  Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), that Bill 35, The Fisheries Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la Loi sur la peche), be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time.

      His Honour the Lieutenant‑Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House, and I will be tabling the message as well.

Motion agreed to.

 

Introduction of Guests

     

Mr. Speaker:  Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of all members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from the R.H.G. Bonnycastle School, thirty Grade 5 students under the direction of Ms. Regan Rasmussen.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Education and Training (Mrs. Vodrey).

      Also this afternoon, from the Willow Grove School, we have fourteen Grades 5‑9 students under the direction of Mr. Dayton Penner.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik).

      On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon.

 

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

     

Manitoba Hydro Arni Thorsteinson Appointment

     

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier (Mr. Filmon).

      On May 5, cabinet replaced a former Tory fundraiser on the Board of Directors of Manitoba Hydro, one Mr. Terry Stratton, who had received the ultimate, I guess, in terms of Tory fundraising rewards and been appointed to the Senate.

      They replaced one Tory fundraiser on that Manitoba Hydro Board with another Conservative fundraiser, one Arni Thorsteinson, who of course was appointed to the Board of Manitoba Hydro on May 5 to replace Terry Stratton.  By correspondence that we have received, we know he is the chairman of the PC Manitoba fund, the fund that was sending out letters on April 28 to numerous businesses and organizations across Manitoba.

      Mr. Speaker, it appears to us that this board spot is reserved for a Conservative fundraising person, and I would like to ask the Premier what the qualifications of Mr. Thorsteinson were to appoint him to that board of directors.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, Mr. Thorsteinson is probably on more boards of directors of more national corporations than all but a handful of Manitobans.  I know that he is on the board of, for instance, one of the banks in Canada, Purolator Corporation‑‑there are several of them.  I will get the list, but Mr. Thorsteinson, because of his vast business experience‑‑he is president of one of the largest development companies in Manitoba, does business throughout North America, United States, and so on.  Because of those qualifications, he is eminently qualified, better qualified than most of the people who are ever appointed to boards and commissions by New Democrats, I can tell you that.

* (1340)

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, Mr. Thorsteinson has also been appointed by Brian Mulroney to the Petro‑Canada Board of Directors.  Here we see fundraisers sending out letters to businesses all across Manitoba.  They are sending out letters in the morning to many of these businesses and in the afternoon of course they are making decisions on boards of directors dealing with procurement by Manitoba Hydro of millions and millions of dollars.

      Does the Premier not think, given the fact that Jules Benson had to quit under The Civil Service Act his position as a fundraiser for the Conservative Party when the Premier appointed him to Treasury Board, there is a problem here with a person who is involved in raising money for the Conservative Party in the morning, making decisions on procurement policies worth tens of millions of dollars in the afternoon?

Mr. Filmon:  Mr. Speaker, I cannot believe the hypocrisy of this member opposite.  The member who is sitting behind him, one David Chomiak, when he was a member of the equivalent of the Crown Corporations Council, was sending out fundraising letters to the corporate community in this province on behalf of New Democrats. One Marty Dolin, who was at that time the husband of a minister of government in the New Democratic government, later became himself a member of the New Democratic government, was a bagman‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

 

Point of Order

     

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader):  On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I realize that our rules in terms of what is parliamentary and what is not usually covers sitting members, but I would perhaps like to remind the First Minister this is the 1990s and people are no longer referred to as being spouses or appendages.  People are referred to as being their own individuals with their own views.  Perhaps the First Minister might wish to consider that.

Mr. Speaker:  The honourable member does not have a point of order.  It is clearly a dispute over the facts.

* * *

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, a final question to the Premier on the qualifications of the individual whom he has so vigorously defended.

      On April 27, a judgment was made on behalf of the Province of Manitoba dealing with the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation for three companies owned by Mr. Thorsteinson adding up to funds of some $6 million that were owed to corporations that are in the ownership of the Province of Manitoba.  This judgment was made a week before the Premier and cabinet appointed this individual to the Board of Directors of the Manitoba Hydro corporation.

      Mr. Speaker, has the member whom the Premier has defended, did he pay back the money to the Province of Manitoba in the seven days between the time the judgment was arrived at by the Court of Queen's Bench and the time the government appointed him to that board?

Mr. Filmon:  Mr. Speaker, speaking of paying back the government, the member could tell us whether or not he and his member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) repaid student loans.

      Mr. Speaker, we deal with every single person, regardless of their political stripe, on a businesslike basis, and that is why we do not give special favours to any individual regardless of their political persuasion.

* (1345)

 

Radon Gas

Report Release

 

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  Mr. Speaker, the problem of radon gas in Manitoba has been raised again in a study showing that not only are our levels the worst in the country, but that they have increased more than three times the level in the '80s. It is also clear that this government is not doing everything they could to take seriously this problem.

      I would ask the Minister of Environment:  Why was the report on the levels of radon outside the city of Winnipeg not released independently?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  I am not sure what the member means by being released independently.  The fact is that meetings were held in the communities outside of Winnipeg. The media was invited and members of the local councils.  The meetings were open in order to try and present the information that went beyond what was known before.

      That is what concerns me about the attention that this particular item is receiving today.  Some three years ago, three and a half years ago, this province released all the information that we had available at that point regarding radon.  We put together what is considered one of the most comprehensive and useful radon guides for homeowners.  I am looking at this one; this was the second printing already in October of 1989.

      So, Mr. Speaker, this government has taken a lot of time and effort to make sure that Manitobans are aware of the issue.

 

Building Code Regulations

 

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  Mr. Speaker, what we are talking about is a more proactive approach that is going to let people know that our homes in Manitoba have a higher level than radioactive contaminated sites in Ontario.

      I would ask the Minister of Environment:  Why have the building codes of Manitoba not been changed so that regulations are strengthened in this area, regulations that have been developed but are not implemented by this government?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  Those regulatory changes, which have been worked on and put together in conjunction with the industry‑‑that is one of the things that disturbs me, however, is that we should perhaps be very careful on how we deal with this issue, because at the same time as we want to make sure that Manitobans have all of the information available to them, I would like to point out that an information bulletin went out of our department earlier this year, as well.

      In that bulletin, it has been indicated that we have some preliminary results from a decade‑long study that has been done by Canada Health and Welfare, a study which they will be releasing later this year.  They presented us with information of their preliminary results, and the indications are that they have been unable to establish any relationship between the health effects and high radon levels or household levels of radon as we have in this province.

Ms. Cerilli:  Mr. Speaker, it concerns me that this minister would get into a battle over research studies when there is something as serious as this that has been shown to be related to cancer and is in the government's own‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member for Radisson, with your question.

 

Home Repair Assistance Program

 

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  My question for the Minister of Environment is:  What consideration has this government given to a loan and cost assistance program to help homeowners cover the cost of $1,500 to radon‑proof their homes?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, we have taken the position we took back in 1989 and it has been reconfirmed, as a matter of fact, by the information that has been recently released, in fact, reconfirms the information we had in 1989 that the concerns are such that a person, if they wish, can acquire the expertise to have the test done of any particular levels of radon or find if there are particular levels in their dwelling, and we provide as much information as we can as to how it can be mitigated.

      Frankly, the implication that this could cost up to $1,500‑‑it can be considerably less as well.

 

Radon Gas

Home Repair Assistance Program

Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James):  My question also is for the Minister of Environment.

      I have listened to his answers to my colleague's questions, Mr. Speaker, and I am reminded of the October 5, 1989, press release in which this minister said that he would be forthwith putting in radon protection provisions into the Manitoba Building Code.

      He also produced a facts sheet at that time which said that radon‑related safeguards would be included in amendments to the Manitoba Building Code.

      It has been three and a half years, Mr. Speaker.  When is this minister intending on actually following through on commitments made three and a half years ago about a problem that he said at the time, correctly, was extremely serious?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  Mr. Speaker, this is not just a result of an action by this department, but the co‑ordination of the other departments and the National Building Code, that we will then be able to make sure that houses that are built in the province, the newer ones, are built to standards that would provide the protection against any intake of gas.

* (1350)

Mr. Edwards:  I asked about these press releases that are about the Manitoba Building Code, Mr. Speaker.  It has been three and a half years and nothing has been done.

      My further question, Mr. Speaker, is for the minister:  Given that this minister has agreed this is an extremely serious problem and it is relatively inexpensive in most cases to deal with, is this minister prepared to speak to his colleague the minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro (Mr. Downey) to canvass the possibility of giving loans to be paid back over time through Hydro payments, as has been done in the past, for this type of home improvement activity which can only help the health of Manitobans throughout this province?

Mr. Cummings:  Mr. Speaker, the member implies that this is a matter that should be dealt with on an emergency basis or dealt with through a government program that would fund the correction of the problem.

      Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, while we are concerned about what any of these elevated readings may mean, they are naturally occurring, and the studies that we have from the Department of Health and Welfare do not indicate that there is a demonstrable relationship in terms of cause and effect.

      Mr. Speaker, I think the best approach is that we keep ourselves informed, that we make sure that the public has an opportunity to be informed, and if they believe the concern is of a level that they wish to do something about it, that the information be available.

 

Building Code Regulations

 

Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James):  Mr. Speaker, the minister's booklet says:  Radon is a significant contributor towards lung cancer deaths.

      My question for the minister:  He talks about me wanting to deal with this on an emergency basis.  When is he going to put the provisions into the Manitoba Building Code dealing with radon gas?  Three and a half years‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member has put his question.

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that the member is unwilling to recognize a considerable amount of work that has been done.

      This province had a demonstration project in 1988‑89 in the northern part of the city of Winnipeg where we did extensive studies and spent a considerable amount of the industry's money and provincial taxpayers' money making sure that the guidelines for construction were put in place.

      Mr. Speaker, the information gathered there, combined with the information gathered by Canada Department of Health and Welfare, indicates this is the best way of dealing with the issue.

 

Organic Farming

Minister's Position

 

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River):  Mr. Speaker, last week I asked the Minister of Agriculture about organic farming practices in Manitoba, and the minister indicated he felt there had been adequate research done into the effects of chemicals used in the farm process and in the way in which chemicals are used in Manitoba.

      Will the minister tell the House today if his idea about the value of organic farming has changed in any way, given the results of the recent study published by the American Journal of Epidemiology which links the use of herbicides with prostate cancer?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture):  Mr. Speaker, over the course of the last number of years, there has been a lot of concern about the use of chemicals in the operation of a farm.

      We have a registration process in Canada that is the best in the world in terms of determining precautions to be used in the handling of chemicals.  My department and myself have been advocating that farmers follow the precautions, particularly in the use of clothing, rubber gloves and masks, because they are handling the chemical in a concentrated fashion when they are transferring it from a container into a sprayer, and certainly farmers are at risk.

      I think what this sort of information does highlight to farmers is that they should follow the safety precautions because, to tell you the truth, when surveys are done to determine if farmers are following the precautions, many are not following them to the letter of the requirement to guarantee safe handling of the chemicals.

      So it is important that these studies are done.  It does highlight the need to use safety practices, and those practices do exist.  They are part of the precautions on the labels of all chemicals used in agriculture.

 

Agricultural Industry

Chemical Health Risks

 

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River):  Mr. Speaker, the minister tells us that farmers are at risk here.

      Will the minister tell this House what steps his government will be taking to monitor the health impacts on farmers in Manitoba to assure the safety of the producers and the consumers and to be sure that the regulations are being followed and that we prevent this health risk that is out there right now?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture):  Mr. Speaker, the department has put together an Agriculture Chemicals in the 1990s video that was presented to the farm community in the past years.  It helps to highlight safe use of chemicals.

      We have a process of licensing all pesticide retailers so they can then pass on the level of education to all farmers.  We, certainly, through the course of the normal extension activities of the department and any time that I speak to people involved with chemicals, always accentuate all the precautions that should be used.

      We cannot guarantee that farmers will follow them.  We continue to accentuate that they should and all the reasons why they should.  We also have done a survey to look at the degree to which farmers are using these, and it does show that rubber gloves, which is one of the really important ways to protect yourself, are used by 77 percent of the participants, which is much higher than it was ten years ago‑‑much, much higher.

* (1355)

Ms. Wowchuk:  Can the minister tell the House then whether he has read this study and whether he will direct his department staff to undertake further research that is recommended by the author of the studies, and undertake measures to educate farmers and protect farmers against these potentially deadly chemicals?

Mr. Findlay:  Mr. Speaker, I have already indicated to the member that we do a number of things in terms of trying to be sure that farmers follow the appropriate precautions to look after themselves, their families and anybody around them.

      It is an ongoing process, and we have stepped up that process in the last few years, particularly by putting together the video, Agriculture Chemicals in the 1990s.  Major, major progress has been made in the last 10 years to get farmers to understand that they are at risk in the use of these chemicals.  The labelling precautions are there.  It is an ongoing process.  We have stepped it up in the last few years.  We are well ahead of the member.

 

Sunday Shopping

Consultations

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism.

      Earlier today, the minister was quoted on a local radio station as suggesting that the opposition were holding up public consultation on the Sunday shopping legislation.  Talk about revisionist history, Mr. Speaker.

      My question to the minister is:  Can he explain to Manitobans why, when second reading of Sunday shopping legislation was passed last December, in the intervening months there has been no attempt by the government to consult with rural Manitobans, to consult with the chambers of commerce in communities throughout this province on why this government is wrongheaded and why they are proceeding with Sunday shopping legislation?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I guess this points out very clearly that the member for Flin Flon and members of his party do not understand what a trial period is.  The whole idea of the original bill was to have a four‑month trial period, to get an opportunity for Manitobans to determine how Sunday shopping affected their communities or individual lives, to give the government an opportunity to assess it.

      We did introduce another piece of legislation modelled after Alberta and British Columbia and similar to Saskatchewan.  We welcome getting to public hearings as soon as the opposition parties are prepared to approve second reading and move it on to committee, Mr. Speaker.

 

Public Hearings‑Rural Manitoba

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  Mr. Speaker, once again, the chamber of commerce pointed thumbs down on this legislation.  The chamber of commerce has said this is not in the interest of rural Manitoba.

      My question to the minister is:  Will he now announce in the House today‑‑and he will receive the co‑operation of the opposition in proceeding with this legislation‑‑which rural communities will have hearings on this Sunday shopping legislation?  Will he announce that today so that we can co‑operate?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, the member for Flin Flon refers to a resolution passed this weekend at a Manitoba Chamber of Commerce annual meeting.  I had an opportunity to have lunch today with the president of the Manitoba Chamber and the Winnipeg Chamber.  They indicated that it was an interesting discussion and a close vote.  Only 15 chambers voted, the vote was eight to seven.  So it shows, once again, the nature of the issue in terms of Manitobans having different views.

      We have said all along on this particular piece of legislation, Mr. Speaker, that it will follow the same legislative process as every other piece of legislation.  Once it receives second reading in this House, it will go to the traditional committee hearings that are held right here in this building and which each and every Manitoban can come in person or send in a written submission.  That opportunity is there for all Manitobans to do so.

Mr. Storie:  Mr. Speaker, talk about the arrogance of government.

      The question to the minister is:  Will he identify for rural Manitobans, for the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce, for the Union of Manitoba Municipalities, for MAUM, for the Canadian Federation of Independent Grocers, which rural communities are going to be the site for hearings on this legislation which is going to undermine the economy in rural Manitoba?  Which communities?

Mr. Stefanson:  Mr. Speaker, the arrogance is clearly across the way.  Here is a member who has been in this House for many years, and he knows legislative process and he knows what happens with legislation in this House.  This piece of legislation will follow the same process as every other piece of legislation.

      As well, on the issue for municipalities that do decide to go to wide‑open Sunday shopping, they have a municipal process here in Winnipeg and other parts of Manitoba which, again, the public of Manitoba will have an opportunity for input.  As our House leader has indicated, if they give second reading along with the Liberal Party, we will go to committee Wednesday of this week.

* (1400)

 

Interdepartmental Crisis Committee

Target Groups

 

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Family Services.

      I asked the minister last Tuesday with regard to some protocols that the departments are now using in co‑ordinating information from one department to the other.  On Friday, the minister of Child and Family Services distributed four documents, three of which, quite frankly, pre‑date the Reid inquest.  The final document that was released refers to children between the ages of five and 11, which does not mean that the Reid family would have qualified.

      Would the minister now today like to give us protocols that would have applied to a similar incident like the Reid family tragedy?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, last day, I pointed out to the member that the Reid inquest report by Judge Norton dealt with addressing difficulties of co‑ordination between the Child and Family Services agencies and other social agencies and police authorities in dealing with a specific case.

      As a result of that, we have brought in a number of reforms which I indicated on the record last Friday.

Mrs. Carstairs:  Mr. Speaker, the document which the minister tabled in fact is new.  It is one which is called a Referral Process to the Interdepartmental Crisis Resource Committee for Children Between Ages 5‑11.

      Are the members of this House to assume that if there are adolescents, who are outside the ages of between five and 11, they would not be referred to this Interdepartmental Crisis Resource Committee?

Mr. Gilleshammer:  Mr. Speaker, that was one of four reports that I tabled for the member who was looking for information on interdepartmental co‑ordination.  That specific one deals with a target group of children between the ages of five and 11.

      However, the other documents that I tabled, Guidelines on Identifying and Reporting a Child in Need of Protection, another document, Transition Planning Process‑‑and the third one I would mention is the Provincial Advisory Committee on Child Abuse, which, as a matter of fact, today is meeting in regular session with staff from the Department of Justice, the Department of Health, the Department of Education and the Department of Family Services.

Mrs. Carstairs:  Mr. Speaker, the document the minister tabled on Friday which is a referral process says:  "Personnel from local school divisions, Child and Family Service agencies and regional mental health services presently collaborate to develop community‑based education/treatment programming for children with severe behavior adjustment disorders.  However, there are some cases where, because of the severity of the behavior, the complexities of the case and/or local factors, such collaborative planning at the local level reaches an impasse . . . ." and that is when this crisis group goes into play.

      Can the minister tell the House if that Crisis Resource Committee would in fact be put into place for those over the age of 11?

Mr. Gilleshammer:  This particular document deals with children from ages five to 11, as the information indicates.  There are other procedures which are used to deal with older children, where we have interdepartmental committees which do a case conference on specific cases.

 

Health Care System Reform

Centralization

 

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):  Mr. Speaker, like so much else in health care reform, we are waiting for the message on high from the minister as to when services will be consolidated or centralized at various health locations throughout the city of Winnipeg.  We have heard, via the rumour mill and from others, that orthopedics will be‑‑

Some Honourable Members:  Oh, oh.

Mr. Chomiak:  Mr. Speaker, meetings have been held in the health services field about the consolidation and the placing of orthopedics at Victoria Hospital and ophthalmology at the Seven Oaks centre.

      What plans has the minister made for input from the public, health care professionals and caregivers in the field, prior to the implementation of those plans?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Well, Mr. Speaker, at least my honourable friend, through Freudian slip, has confirmed the source of his research‑‑rumour mills.

      Mr. Speaker, I want to indicate to my honourable friend, that in part or in whole, possibly some of the discussions that he is referring to in terms of orthopedics, ophthalmology, urology and a number of other areas, were subject of presentations by the physicians, in most cases, who are heading the study committees around those programs in surgery.  They presented their interim findings to a retreat at which we had members of all of the urban hospitals, major urban hospital facilities, the Urban Hospital Council, as well as a number of professional groups that were there.

      The purpose, Sir, of sharing those pieces of investigation to date with that wide a group of Manitobans, was to do exactly as my honourable friend wants, to seek input and feedback.

Mr. Chomiak:  Mr. Speaker, what plans has the minister made for seeking input from the public prior to the implementation of those particular decisions?

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, when one attempts to make planning changes throughout the system and when one engages the advice of experts who are part of the Manitoba health care community, one would assume that they are going to make recommendations to government which will have integrity in terms of the continued ability to deliver high quality programs to maintain the health status of Manitobans.

      Mr. Speaker, any decision that is made by myself and announced by government as a result of that kind of across a wide spectrum of input, I believe, will find significant favour for the health care system of Manitoba providing services to one million Manitobans.

 

The Province of Manitoba

Dominion Bond Rating

 

Mr. Bob Rose (Turtle Mountain):  Mr. Speaker, I am surprised that this question has not been asked before today, but I noticed over the weekend an article in the paper indicating that the Dominion Bond Rating Service has maintained Manitoba's credit rating at its previous level. [interjection]

      I know the question must have slipped your mind.  I appreciate the opportunity to get it in.

      Can the Minister of Finance explain to the House, the reasons for the Dominion Bond Rating Service maintaining Manitoba at its present credit level rating?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  I am delighted that this question has come forward, and I am terribly disappointed that my good friend the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) was not the author of the question.

      The Dominion Bond Rating Service stated in a ringing endorsement of the actions of this government that Manitoba stands out as only one of two provinces in Canada that is fiscally responsible in its actions.  It has indicated that our province has emphasized expenditure control, what the opposition of course in strong chorus has been against, that has not initiated major tax increases for the last five years.  Again, the members opposite have voted against that.

      It has changed.  Our province has changed from being one of the highest taxed provinces down to mid‑range.  Indeed, the midterm plan which we have laid before Manitobans and they so strongly support, is what has led of course to this reaffirmation of our rating.

      So, Mr. Speaker, we are delighted to be able to present this information.  Indeed, it is an outside report on the fiscal standing of the province and the way we conduct our fiscal matters.  I know the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) wants us to abandon the path, and he wants us, of course, to put at risk our real security, to spend more, to borrow more, and ultimately to tax more than is found wanting.  That is the wrong solution.

      We are on the proper course.

Mr. Rose:  My supplementary question to the Minister of Finance, I am sure if we waited till Friday morning, we might get‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  I would remind the honourable member this is not a time for debate.

Mr. Rose:  My question to the honourable Minister of Finance: What exactly is the difference between an A rating and an A‑minus rating in terms of actual dollars on our provincial debt?

Mr. Manness:  Mr. Speaker, when you are downgraded to the next rank, usually you are talking as much one‑eighth of 1 percent, or roughly 15 basis points.  That tends to be‑‑and of course when you are talking about a borrowing program, and in our place in the province of Manitoba, between $1 billion and $2 billion, and you borrow that amount of money over a period of 10 years, you are talking about tens of millions of dollars.

      By the way, Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what my colleague the Minister of Finance in Ontario, Mr. Laughren, is having to deal with right now as he is putting the final touches to his budget as he brings it down Wednesday, because the whole markets are tuned in to that Ontario budget, and there is no doubt that if their deficit comes in beyond $10 billion, there is going to be a significant downgrade in the ability of all of us to borrow.

* (1410)

 

Manitoba Builder Bonds

Public Confidence

 

Mr. Bob Rose (Turtle Mountain):  My final supplementary question to the minister:  Given the fact that the government bonds are going on sale, will this report give added confidence to Manitoba to buy our new government bond issue?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader):  Well, Mr. Speaker, over the weekend I had an opportunity to talk to many Manitobans with respect to Builder Bonds, and certainly there is a growing interest.

      Naturally, every investor wants to know ultimately what the coupon value is.  I will be making that announcement next week some time, and I will price them I think very favourably.  I am sure Manitobans, who have such a strong loyalty to this province, will respond, and it will be a successful issue.

 

Garrison Diversion Project

Government Position