LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF
Friday, April 8, 1994
The House met at 10 a.m.
PRAYERS
Speaker's Statement
Mr. Speaker:
I have a statement for the House.
I must inform the House that Judy Wasylycia‑Leis, the honourable
member for
I
am pleased to inform the Assembly that the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly
has received from the chief electoral officer a notice respecting the election
of Harry Schellenberg as the member for the constituency of Rossmere, Eric
Robinson as member for the constituency of Rupertsland, Gord Mackintosh as the
member for the constituency of St. Johns, Norma McCormick as the member for the
constituency of Osborne, and Gary Kowalski as the member for the constituency
of The Maples. I hereby table the notice
respecting these elections.
Introduction of New Members
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the
Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present to
you Harry Schellenberg, member for the electoral division of Rossmere, who has
taken the oath, has signed the roll and now claims the right to take his seat.
Mr. Speaker:
Congratulations, Harry. On behalf
of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you to the Legislative
Assembly of Manitoba and wish you well in your parliamentary career. Good luck, sir.
Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas):
Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present to you Eric Robinson, member
for the electoral division of Rupertsland, who has taken the oath and signed the
roll and now claims the right to take his seat.
Mr. Speaker:
On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you, sir,
to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba and wish you well in your parliamentary
career. All the best, Eric. Congratulations.
Ms. Becky Barrett (
Mr. Speaker:
On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you to the
Legislative Assembly of Manitoba and wish you well in your parliamentary
career. Good luck. All the best.
* (1005)
Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the
Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present to
you Norma McCormick, member for the electoral division of Osborne, who has
taken the oath and signed the roll and now claims the right to take her seat.
Mr. Speaker:
Congratulations, Norma. On behalf
of all honourable members, I welcome you to the Legislative Assembly of
Manitoba and wish you well in your parliamentary career. Good luck.
All the best.
Mr. Edwards:
Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present to you Gary Kowalski, member
for the electoral division of The Maples, who has taken the oath and signed the
roll and now claims the right to take his seat.
Mr. Speaker:
Congratulations, sir. Welcome to
the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, and I wish you well in your parliamentary
career.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
TABLING OF REPORTS
Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of
Labour): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to table at
this time the 1992‑93 Annual Report of the Civil Service Commission as
well as the Actuarial Report on the Public Service Group Insurance Fund as at December
31st, 1991, as well as the Actuarial Report on The Civil Service Superannuation
Fund as at December 31st, 1992.
Mr. Speaker:
I am also pleased to table the Annual Report of the Chief Electoral
Officer on The Election Finances Act for the year 1992.
I
am also tabling the Statutory Report for September 21, 1993, by‑elections
in the electoral divisions of Osborne, Rossmere, Rupertsland,
Introduction of Guests
Mr. Speaker:
Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable
members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us this morning Senator
JoAnn Morford‑Burg and her husband Quinten from the state of
On
behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this
morning.
* (1010)
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Health Care System
Staffing‑‑Status Report
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the
Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier.
In
1992 I asked the Premier a number of questions about staffing and patient care
at a number of the hospitals, particularly the Health Sciences Centre and
Subsequent
to that date, in 1993 we had the health reform fanfare of the government. Of course, this fanfare is now noticeably
missing from the words of the Speech from the Throne that was tabled by the
government yesterday, and we had the hiring of a person named Connie Curran to
implement the plans of the Minister of Health in terms of health care
reductions and cutbacks to the people of
Mr.
Speaker, after the Premier (Mr. Filmon) changed his cabinet in the middle of
the by‑elections and changed his Minister of Health, we heard four days
later that there would be a "health care pause" so we can reflect and
evaluate the impact of the Curran and government cutbacks that were being
implemented by his government, the Conservative government.
I
would like to ask the Premier today:
What is the status of the so‑called pause that was announced on
September 14, and what is the status of employment and patient care at
hospitals, particularly our two teaching hospitals in
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of
Health): Mr. Speaker, the pause to which the
honourable Leader of the Opposition refers had to do with staffing guidelines
being reviewed by my department, by the Manitoba Association of Registered
Nurses, by the Manitoba Association of Licensed Practical Nurses, by the
College of Physicians and Surgeons and by the Registered Psychiatric Nurses'
Association of Manitoba so that we could be sure that any staffing changes in
hospitals in Manitoba would not have a negative impact on patient care.
That,
Mr. Speaker, is our bottom line. That is
our bottom line at Health Sciences Centre.
That is our bottom line at St. Boniface Hospital.
As
you know, the work restructuring project at those two tertiary hospitals has
generated hundreds and hundreds of ideas, generated by hundreds and hundreds of
our fellow Manitobans, professionals and workers who work in these hospitals‑‑nurses,
dietitians, technicians‑‑and those ideas are presently under review
by myself.
I
expect in a short time to be able to announce the government position on those
recommendations.
Mr. Doer:
Well, I am very disappointed the Premier is not taking control of this
issue, Mr. Speaker. It is the largest
area of spending in the government.
During
the last session and the session before, the Premier sat on his hands, said
nothing about health care, obviously does not care about health care. He does not even stand up on the first
question in this Chamber, and in the last Question Period last year, he would
not answer about health care either.
Mr.
Speaker, the Minister of Health is working with a management‑labour
committee along with his Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik). The Minister of Health met with this
committee in December of 1993.
Finally,
for the first time, we have in writing in January of 1994 that in addition to
all the reductions in staff and all that impact on patient care, an additional
1,500 people will lose their jobs at St. Boniface Hospital and the Health
Sciences Centre if the so‑called government agenda continues to roll
through those hospitals.
I
would like to ask the Premier: What is
the status of those additional 1,500 people who will lose their jobs, and what
will be the impact on patient care in the
Mr. McCrae:
One of the reasons to have a pause last fall, Mr. Speaker, was that
changes in health care would indeed have an impact on employment in
There
is an exciting future in health care, not only for those who need health care
services, but also those who provide them.
* (1015)
Mr. Doer:
I am pleased to see the minister confirming what we have said during all
last year's session, that there was no plan, there was no sensitivity to patients
and staff, there was no agenda for government.
There were just ad hoc decisions and ad hoc rhetoric in this Chamber,
with no sensitivity to the patients and people of
I
ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon) a very direct question: After he has changed his ministers and after
being in government now for close to six years, what is the status of the
recommendation on 1,500 people losing their jobs at St. Boniface and Health
Sciences Centre? What is the status? Are they going to implement those 1,500
reductions, and what will be the impact on patients? Where are these changes going to take
place? Where are these layoffs going to
take place? What will be the impact on
the facilities that already have people in the hallways, have patients waiting
for services?
The
system is quite stretched, Mr. Speaker, based on the Tory agenda on health
care.
Mr. McCrae:
Mr. Speaker, the honourable member uses a number that is extremely
exaggerated because, if he talks to our fellow Manitobans who are involved in
the generation of these recommendations‑‑after all, you know, we
have been asked: You want some ideas,
ask us, we work in the system.
That
is exactly what we did, and the people who work at those hospitals generated
the ideas that do talk about improvements to patient care and changes to the
labour situation.
The
honourable member's question also fails to mention that‑‑I do not
know if he showed up that day or not, but we have been opening personal care
home beds in Manitoba‑‑oh, yes, I remember he sent a colleague for
that. We are providing alternative
services in the community through long‑term care, so the honourable
member in his question does not remember to mention that part of it.
The
number that he uses is grossly, grossly exaggerated. Because of labour adjustment, because of
vacancy rates, because of careful use of attrition and all of those things, we
are going to be able to provide improved care to patients with a much reduced
impact in terms of labour, as might have been expected previously.
As
I said, hospitals do not have the same labour adjustment strategies as this
government has had over the last six years.
We are now going to be able to have that, and it is going to make it
much better for the people who work there.
Mr. Doer:
Mr. Speaker, this report follows a meeting the minister had with
management and labour in all the hospitals.
The report sent to the government from these experts, working, as the
minister has indicated, at the bedside, indicates fully that‑‑and I
will quote from page 2‑‑these numbers will get larger as reform
rolls over the months and years ahead.
It
is projected that if fully implemented, proposed additional budget cuts‑‑that
is budget cuts made by this government‑‑at
Now,
will the minister, if he says this number is exaggerated‑‑and this
is already in addition to the number of cuts they have already made with the
line‑ups that have already taken place in the hospitals‑‑will
the Premier (Mr. Filmon) today tell us what is the numbering?
They
have been in office six years. What is
it?
Mr. McCrae:
Mr. Speaker, I have asked that same question of the management of the Health
Sciences Centre and St. Boniface and, unfortunately, because of the way the
union agreements work with respect to bumping, they are not even able to tell
how many jobs will be affected in the future.
As
I have said, with labour adjustment, we expect that to be minimized, but I am
also asking for the honourable member's support as I approach the unions to
say, let's do away with this bumping business, because that does not work when
we are in a reform mode. That works
perhaps in the annual operation of a hospital where you might have to make
adjustments, but we are talking about larger adjustments now and bumping does
not work well.
So
I am asking the unions and I am asking the members of the opposition to help
us, not just to help the honourable member, but to help the people who work in
these hospitals who have given us so much service over the years.
By
the way, Mr. Speaker, bumping can be dangerous to patients, and our honourable
members opposite interested in joining me in asking for that kind of a change,
so that as change happens, we do not have to have that kind of negative impact
on patients. I do not want that. I do not think the honourable member does.
Work
with us, please, on that point.
* (1020)
Mr. Doer:
I would go back to the Premier (Mr. Filmon), Mr. Speaker. The minister did not answer the
question. He was talking about how he
was going to fire people or lay them off, rather than how many there will be
and what will be the impact on patients.
Now,
if the number of 1,500 is exaggerated, and this number comes from management
and from workers based on government budget decisions, their decisions, your
decisions, this Premier's decisions, I would just like to know‑‑and
I think the people of Manitoba are entitled to know from the Premier, who has
two ministers working on this committee and a previous minister that started
these cuts, all of which he approved:
How many people will be reduced and what will be the impact on patients?
A
very simple question‑‑six years in office, you should have the
answer.
Mr. McCrae:
Mr. Speaker, the intention, my clear intention, as stated many, many
times, is to keep that number to the absolute minimum. It is impossible because of bumping for me to
answer the honourable member's question directly, but his number is greatly
exaggerated.
The
document the honourable member is flourishing today is not a new thing. This has been a very transparent process, Mr.
Speaker. Hundreds and hundreds of people
know exactly what is going on in those hospitals because hundreds and hundreds
of people have been involved in generating the ideas for improved patient care.
I
hope the honourable Leader of the Opposition is not opposed to improving
patient care and I hope he is not opposed to treating the people who work in
those hospitals as compassionately as we can.
Health Care System
Staffing‑‑Status Report
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the
Opposition): The only bumping that has gone on is the bumping
of the former Minister of Health to the present Minister of Health by the
Premier, Mr. Speaker, and we still cannot get any answers from the person who
is supposed to be in charge of this thing‑‑the Premier.
I
have asked the question four times now:
How many people are going to be laid off at the two teaching hospitals,
and what will be the impact on the patients in
Surely
the Premier can answer the question: Is
it 1,500, is it 1,400, is it zero, have they frozen it till past the election?
Please
tell the people of
Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):
Mr. Speaker, I am sure that it will not go unnoticed by all those who are
observers of this Legislature Question Period the cheap politics that the
Leader of the Opposition is attempting to play.
When
he is asking questions of detail on the Department of Health, those questions
are most appropriately answered by the Minister of Health. When he wants to talk about specific reports
generated within the hospital system to do with decisions made and their policy
issues and reviews being made within that, those are most appropriately answered
by the Minister of Health.
The
kind of cheap gamesmanship that he wants to play, Mr. Speaker, will not benefit
him and certainly will not benefit the people of
Unemployment Rate
Provincial Comparisons
Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the
Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, today the people of this country
received some good news about the unemployment rate nationally for the last
month, and I for one want to say that I think we are all pleased to see that
trend starting to occur nationally as, hopefully, the country pulls out of this
dark and deep recession.
I
do want to point out to the Premier and ask the Premier today about the
My
question to the Premier: Given that for
the last six years, as reiterated yesterday, the key platform is job creation,
why are we third worst in the country on that particular point this last month?
* (1025)
Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):
Mr. Speaker, I know that the member opposite studied long and hard to
try and find a dark cloud behind the silver lining that was contained within
the unemployment figures. That, of
course, is his normal attitude toward these kinds of things. I would have thought that he would have risen
and said that he was very happy that the unemployment rate in
Mr. Edwards:
I did not say that.
An Honourable Member:
What were you saying about cheap politics?
Mr. Filmon:
No, no, he referred to the national rate, tried to cozy up and toady up
to his federal Liberal government. He
was very specific as to how he phrased it.
I know that he likes to try and bask in the glow of his federal Liberal
counterparts, but it was the
In
addition to that, of course, he declined to congratulate the government for the
fact that last year we had the third best job creation growth of any province
in
I
think that if he looks at the trends, if he looks at the way in which things
are being announced these days, that he will find that Manitoba is on a very
positive path, and I look forward to debating these issues and comparing these
numbers with him as time goes on throughout the course of the year.
Mr. Edwards:
Mr. Speaker, let me assure the Premier, it did not take long to see the
trend that I pointed out to him. It is
on the first page of the labour statistics.
I
want to ask the Premier again: Why, of
the 7,000 people who got jobs in this province in the last month, 6,000 of them‑‑86
percent, third worst in the country‑‑why were 6,000 as a result of
out‑migration, were people leaving their jobs?
Why
is job creation in this province, when it has been the lead priority for six
years, still third worst in the country, Mr. Speaker? I would like an answer from the Premier.
Mr. Filmon:
Mr. Speaker, the interesting thing is that the member opposite wants to
try and selectively choose from one month's statistics the worst circumstances
that he can put together.
I
point out to him that last year the
I
point out to him that in terms of job creation our statistics for full‑time
jobs being created in '93 were actually the second best in
Now,
I know he is going to ask another question, Mr. Speaker, so I will wait until
after to talk about the improvement as well in the manufacturing employment
statistics that are shown in these figures.
Mr. Edwards:
Mr. Speaker, talk about being selective.
Yes, 6,000 new jobs last year. That
is because we lost 10,000 the year before in 1992.
Mr.
Speaker, when they got the majority government in 1990, there were 15,000 more
Manitobans working than today. That is
the bottom line. The bottom line is that
Manitobans are not working, not getting back to work at the same rate as the
national level.
He
wants to talk about the manufacturing investment. Overall capital investment is down half a
billion dollars a year since he got his majority government.
My
question for this Premier: Why are we
not keeping up? Why are Manitobans still
in the doldrums of the national economy?
Why are we not joining with the national recovery to the same extent
that all Manitobans would like to, that the federal government would like us
to?
* (1030)
Mr. Filmon:
That is the point, that if you want to selectively take one month's
stats out of a whole continuum of figures, you can try and prove anything, but
if you look at the whole picture, Mr. Speaker, 1993 as a whole, we had the
third best overall job creation rate of any province in
So
the growth that is taking place is taking place in areas in which we shared the
concerns a year or two ago as we went through the combination of a recession
and a restructuring of the economy. That
is taking place worldwide.
These
figures not only are more than competitive in
That
is what the member opposite does not recognize, and this kind of narrow focus
on selective statistics to try and make a political hit in Question Period does
not, I think, befit the status of a Leader of a party.
Health Care System
Staffing‑‑Status Report
Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):
Nothing is more strategic than the health care system, Mr. Speaker, and
the 1,500 jobs referred to this morning by my leader were not recommendations
of the union, they were not recommendations of management, they were not
recommendations of the hospital. Those
were the guidelines and the recommendations of the government of this
minister. The government is recommending
1,500 more layoffs in the next several years.
Will
the minister categorically today refute those figures? Will he categorically today say no to the
1,500 additional layoffs and directives that the minister has given to his own
committee to determine?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of
Health): The answer is yes. I will not be favouring any approach that
results in 1,500 people leaving their jobs in hospitals in
The
honourable member and his Leader are wrong in what they are saying. They are grossly exaggerating the numbers.
I
again ask the honourable member for his support to get rid of bumping, and I
would ask him today to express publicly his support for getting rid of that,
because it is not good for people who work in hospitals and it is not good for
patient care.
Do
I have the honourable member's support, please?
Mr. Chomiak:
I would like to indicate to the minister, he has my support if the
minister will give me his support in getting rid of the layoffs.
Will
he refute the 1,500 layoffs that his government is projecting in his own
government's committee report? Will he
refute the 1,500 layoffs? It is not
bumping, Mr. Speaker, it is the layoffs that are the problem.
Mr. McCrae:
I just did that, Mr. Speaker. I
just refuted those numbers. I do not
accept them, I will not agree with them.
I do not know whose recommendations the honourable member is saying they
are, but I will not accept 1,500 layoffs.
I
hope that answers the question, but I hope the honourable member will also put
the situation we find ourselves in in a national context. Look at our country, look at our health care
system.
The
honourable member would like us to go back to the way it was 20 years ago. We cannot do that. That system is not sustainable. It leaves nothing for our children. They deserve better than what the honourable
member and his Leader are offering.
We
stand for that better system of the future, a sustainable health care system,
and it does not include the layoff of 1,500 people.
Mr. Chomiak:
Mr. Speaker, the minister did refute it in December when he met with his
own hand‑picked committee.
Will
the minister today write to the 28 members of the management‑labour
committee that they set up in order to deal with labour adjustment and tell
them categorically that there will not be 1,500 layoffs in the system in the
next several years and tell them how many layoffs they are supposed to deal
with in setting up the recommendations for the labour‑management
committee?
How
many layoffs are they supposed to deal with in the system for the committee
that the government set up comprised of labour and management?
Mr. McCrae:
Mr. Speaker, I think the committee the honourable member refers to knows
that they do not have that kind of a job to do, to lay off 1,500 people. The honourable member knows that. I have already answered the question four
times. I do not know what else I can say
to the honourable member.
War on Drugs Committee
Report Tabling Request
Mr. Gord Mackintosh (
The
Minister of Justice, formerly a backbencher, led the war on drugs by having 26
hearings across the
When
will this minister table the report of the war on drugs?
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of
Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, this
government has spoken with action.
Perhaps this member should find out about the action that has already
taken place.
The
Minister of Education (Mr. Manness), the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae), the
Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) all have initiatives operating
within their departments as a result of the recommendations of the war on
drugs.
Mr. Mackintosh:
Well, the indication of action is the inaction in tabling the war on
drugs.
Will
this minister confirm to this House that this government has no war on drugs at
all? It has a surrender.
Mrs. Vodrey:
This member, Mr. Speaker, has indicated that what he would prefer then
is to look at some papers, and he has told the people of Manitoba in his
question that he would prefer to look at something on paper rather than see the
action that this government has already taken and that ministers of this
government can speak about on the War on Drugs.
Mr. Mackintosh:
My question to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) then: Will he now stand up and fulfill his election
promise from August 16, 1990, and demand that the Minister of Justice table the
report of the war on drugs and advise the House of the cost of this failed war
and confirm that this government has no war at all?
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Speaker, I will not presume to speak on behalf of my colleagues, but
I am sure the member will have the opportunity in the coming weeks and months
to question individual ministers‑‑the Minister of Education (Mr.
Manness), the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae), the Minister of Family Services
(Mrs. Mitchelson)‑‑and they will be able to provide and speak about
initiatives.
Just
by way of example, the Minister of Education might speak about the health
education, drug education program that is taking place within the health
curriculum now. There are a number of
initiatives.
I
think the member across the way just needs to have a little bit more
opportunity in this House to question members and find out about the action that
has taken place.
Gillam/Bird Crisis Centre
Opening‑‑Minister's Attendance
Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland):
Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice.
Given
the new interest in working with community‑based groups that the throne speech
talked about yesterday and assuming that is now government policy, will the
minister be attending the official opening of the Gillam/Bird Crisis Centre
this weekend?
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of
Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, the
member will know I do receive a number of invitations. I make every effort to attend as many
openings and as many opportunities to visit areas within this province and
particularly areas which are my responsibility as Minister of Justice and
Minister responsible for the Status of Women.
Domestic Violence
Northern Resource Centres
Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland):
Mr. Speaker, this proposal has been on the minister's desk for the past
six months. Why did she not make it a
priority instead of making endless efforts for photo opportunities?
Further,
surely a zero tolerance policy in terms of domestic violence must include the
existence of resource centres and crisis centres for women and families at risk
like the one in Gillam and Bird.
Does
this minister believe that facilities are only necessary in
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of
Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, our
commitment to zero tolerance extends across this province. The Minister of Family Services (Mrs.
Mitchelson) has, I know‑‑certainly operational across this province‑‑shelters
for women, and this government has operationalized a number of areas of
assistance for Manitobans, but we do receive a number of proposals. All of those proposals have to be weighed
against the criterion of fairness for all proposals which this government
receives.
* (1040)
Mr. Robinson:
Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Justice simply tell this House that
she will assist crisis centres in northern
Mrs. Vodrey:
Mr. Speaker, I make the commitment now, and have certainly made it in
the past, that I will be working with all Manitobans, make every effort to do
so.
Education System
Parental Involvement
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (
Some Honourable Members:
Oh, oh.
Mr. Lamoureux:
Well, they do not know what he has been doing. I do not know why they would be applauding,
Mr. Speaker.
Since
December of last year, the Minister of Education has been talking to his partners‑‑educators,
school trustees, school superintendents and teachers‑‑concerning
education and reform of our education.
Finally,
after four months, in yesterday's throne speech, we hear that the government
now wants to start talking to the parents of the students.
Does
this mean that now the input of parents will be a part of this minister's
blueprint for reform, or are parents only being consulted after this blueprint
has received the minister's rubber stamp?
Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of
Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to
rise to answer a question from my honourable friend. Through all the dealings of being House
leaders in the past, I enjoy his questions.
Unfortunately,
with this one he is about a million miles off base because, of the virtually 40
meetings I have had with parent groups over the last four months, I do not
think the member for Inkster has been in attendance at even one of them.
So
I think it is only rightful to point out to all the members of the House, Mr.
Speaker, that I have had a large number of meetings with parent groups over the
course of the last four months.
I
am prepared to share the chronology with respect to those meetings with the
member in due course, and I ask him to support, with all of his vigour, the
parents' forum that is going to be coming up later this month.
I
will be making an announcement sometime today with respect to the date and the
location, and I would ask for his full support in respect to that parents'
forum.
Curriculum Standards
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (
This
statement comes from the same government that forced many school divisions to cancel
professional development days, dismissed curriculum branch staff and lowered
standards of language arts and social studies in senior highs. Just what does this minister mean?
Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of
Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I am going to have
to correct the record. This government
did not force one school division, did not force one teacher to take off the
professional development day.