LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Tuesday, April 26, 1994

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

PRAYERS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

APM Incorporated Remuneration and

Pharmacare and Home Care Reinstatement

Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Ms. Friesen). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

Some Honourable Members: Yes.

Mr. Speaker: The Clerk will read.

Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the Manitoba government has repeatedly broken promises to support the Pharmacare program and has in fact cut benefits and increased deductibles far above the inflation rate; and

WHEREAS the Pharmacare program was brought in by the NDP as a preventative program which keeps people out of costly hospital beds and institutions; and

WHEREAS rather than cutting benefits and increasing deductibles the provincial government should be demanding the federal government cancel recent cuts to generic drugs that occurred under the Drug Patent Act; and

WHEREAS at the same time Manitoba government has also cut home care and implemented user fees; and

WHEREAS the Manitoba government paid an American health care consultant over $4 million to implement further cuts in health care.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly urge the Premier to personally step in and order the repayment of the $4 million paid to Connie Curran and her firm APM Incorporated and consider cancelling the recent cuts to the Pharmacare and Home Care programs.

TABLING OF REPORTS

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report 1992‑93 for the Manitoba Centennial Centre Corporation and the Annual Report 1992‑1993 for the Manitoba Arts Council.

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report 1992‑93 for Education and Training, also the Annual Report for the year ended June 30, 1993, of The Public Schools Finance Board, and on behalf of the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey), I would like to table the Annual Report 1991‑92 of the Public Trustee.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): I would like to table the Quarterly Reports for Manitoba Telephone System for the Second Quarter and Third Quarter of 1993.

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report 1993 for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation and the Annual Report 1992‑93 for the Department of Environment.

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INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

Bill 203‑‑The Small Business Regulatory Relief Act

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): I would like to introduce The Small Business Regulatory Relief Act, Mr. Speaker, as the first bill of this session.

Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), that leave be given to introduce Bill 203, The Small Business Regulatory Relief Act (Loi sur l'assouplissement de l'application des règlements aux petites entreprises) and that the same be now received and read a first time.

Motion presented.

Mr. Storie: As is custom, I would like to introduce it with a few brief remarks.

Mr. Speaker, we continue to hear from this Chamber and outside of this Chamber of the importance of small business in the province of Manitoba.

In 1986, a task force was established to review the impact of business regulation on the success and viability of small businesses in the province. Although there were recommendations in that report, there have not been significant moves to implement those recommendations, and in the intervening years, Mr. Speaker, the complexity of regulations facing small business has increased.

Mr. Speaker, there is a need to make sure that business regulations are imposed in a fair and a practical way on small business. Over the past few months, in discussion with small business and in discussion more recently with the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, which is supportive of these kinds of initiatives, it has been determined that this particular legislation that requires the government to predistribute regulations they have plans to introduce over the course of a year, requires government to look at the practicality of business regulation, particularly as it relates to the size of the business.

The larger businesses, Mr. Speaker, it is clear, can and have the resources to assess impacts and to attempt to modify regulations in an appropriate fashion, and small businesses cannot.

This is an important first step, and I hope that all members opposite will support this legislation.

Motion agreed to.

Introduction of Guests

Mr. Speaker: I would like to draw the attention of honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us this afternoon Mr. Charlie Mayer, the former member of Parliament for Lisgar‑Marquette, Mr. Terry Clifford, the former member of Parliament for London‑Middlesex, and they are accompanied also by Mr. Kan Yuk Lam and Mr. Thomas Wong from the Lamko Group.

On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon.

Also with us this afternoon we have, from the John Henderson Junior High School, fifty‑seven Grade 9 students under the direction of Mrs. Manuella Vieira. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway).

Also, from the Grant Park High School, we have thirty‑one Grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Norman Roseman. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray).

On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon.

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ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

Drug Patent Legislation

Government Action

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier.

Drugs in Manitoba represent a very high cost in the budget in terms of the cost of our health care system, both directly through the Pharmacare program and also through our hospitals in the province of Manitoba.

In November of 1992, the former Minister of Health indicated, Mr. Speaker, that nine provinces in Canada were opposed to C‑91, the imposition of a drug patent law in this country that would have impact on the cost of drugs to the consumer, the cost of drugs in our health care system and also would be prohibitive, in fact contrary to the job investment interests in the generic drug industry with their investment intentions in Manitoba. This is a very important issue for both health and investment in our province and in Canada.

I would ask the Premier whether he raised this issue with the Prime Minister when they met on March 2 to get an agreement to reverse C‑91, reverse the former Mulroney government's drug patent law and get a program that is appropriate for the people of Manitoba.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the member is quite right. This government vigorously opposed the former federal government in its implementation of that bill. In fact, my recollection is that the former Minister of Health and the former Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism appeared at the committee hearings in Ottawa that looked into this bill.

We remain of the view that that bill did some unfair things, particularly in its retroactive application to particular patents that denied us the opportunity of an expansion of some of our generic drug producers here in Manitoba.

Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I agree with the Premier's analysis. I was wondering whether he had raised this with the Prime Minister at his March 2 meeting dealing with Manitoba‑federal issues.

Mr. Speaker, the costs are projected to be over half a billion dollars to the health care system in Canada. These are not my words. These are the words of Lloyd Axworthy during the last federal election. The drug patent companies‑‑and I think he is right; I think his numbers were correct‑‑now are saying that the retroactive provisional loan will cost the health care system some $2 billion.

I would like to know, given the fact that Manitoba was opposed to the changes before, we remain opposed to the changes now, did we raise this issue with the Prime Minister at his last visit with the Premier? Did we raise this with the lead federal minister for Manitoba, Mr. Axworthy, at any recent meetings we have had? What action are we taking now to reverse this law and get investment and good prices for our drugs here in Manitoba?

Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, the member opposite may want to engage in cute gamesmanship. The member opposite knows that the meeting with the Prime Minister was directed towards pressing issues of the infrastructure agreement, which has since been signed, of the Core Area renewal agreement, which is under discussion at the moment, issues that involve some hundreds of millions of dollars of investment in the province of Manitoba. The issue that he raises is indeed an issue that we will be pursuing.

I would say, Mr. Speaker, that we have remained consistent on this issue, that we do not support the kinds of legislation that were introduced and the negative effects that they have had, both on our Treasury in terms of the escalating costs of drugs in this province but also on the opportunity for some of our generic drug manufacturers to expand in this province.

Mr. Doer: During the committee hearings in November and December of 1992, all provinces opposed the imposition of Bill C‑91 except Quebec at that point. We are now told, Mr. Speaker, that the federal government is very concerned about Quebec's position on this matter and wants to tiptoe this issue past the next provincial election in the province of Quebec.

Now, if it is going to cost us in health care costs and if it is going to cost us in terms of jobs in the other nine provinces, I would like to know what action the Premier will take, maybe at the western Premiers' meeting scheduled a month from now or at other forums, to raise the issue on behalf of the other nine provinces that want to change Bill C‑91 now and not wait for some distant period of time after one provincial government's election in the province of Quebec.

Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, I would assure the member opposite that our government will raise the issue with the Government of Canada, and we will raise it as quickly and as effectively as possible. We can begin, I think, with appealing directly to the federal government through our ministers involved with the process.

I think it would be appropriate if perhaps we got the support of the Liberal Party here in this Legislature provincially to urge their federal colleagues to take some action on this issue.

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Provincial Judges

Early Retirement Package

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.

In the face of historical backlogs in the Provincial Court that the government now has apparently spurred on by the resignation of eight Provincial Court judges with an attractive retirement package, it certainly baffles Manitobans as to the government's motive in doing this at this time. Particularly disturbing is that this deal was apparently done in secret without this Assembly's knowledge and approval as required by law.

My question to the First Minister, Mr. Speaker, is: Would he now table any legal opinion that the government has advising that it can conclude this retirement package without the approval and knowledge of this Assembly?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the member opposite should know that matters of employment between employees of the government of Manitoba and the government of Manitoba are matters that can be dealt with by any administration in power.

If he doubts that, Mr. Speaker, I invite him to initiate a legal action and show his legal expertise.

Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, as the First Minister should well know, The Provincial Court Act of Manitoba requires that this Assembly first approve any such packages that are offered to judges.

My question is: If the minister will not table a legal opinion, will he now table the retirement package and advise when the Judicial Compensation Committee last met?

Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, I will take the latter part of that question as notice, but I repeat, if the member opposite feels so strongly about his legal position, let him initiate action, and we will be prepared to demonstrate that the government acts within not only the letter of the act, but the spirit of the act.

Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, this is not simply a matter of legal positioning; it is a matter of broad social interest and economic interest to Manitobans.

My final supplementary is: Would the First Minister confirm that there are eight judges now retiring, that they are to receive a one‑year salary at a cost of almost $1 million? In other words, the judges are being paid, Mr. Speaker, $1 million not to deal with the backlog.

Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, the member, if he is concerned about people accepting significant sums of money from the government, ought to talk with his member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) about the money that he is accepting from the government of Manitoba, from three different sources.

Workforce 2000

GWE Group Inc.

Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education and Training.

Last October, GWE Group Inc. was awarded a contract or was given a grant by the government of $600,000, a forgivable loan, as part of their $1.4‑million facility that they are building in Brandon.

In addition to that, under the Workforce 2000 program, we have recently learned they were given at least another $130,000‑‑it may be more‑‑for training.

Mr. Speaker, part of that money, $42,000 of it, is going to a company from Tampa, Florida. The company is named Decision Strategies, and that company has been given this $42,000 contract to train the trainers at this centre.

My question for the minister: What are the criteria under Workforce 2000 for giving monies to companies not only outside of this province but outside of this country to train people?

These are Manitoba taxpayers' dollars. What are the criteria for giving a contract like this of $42,000 to a company from Tampa?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I regrettably cannot answer that question specifically with respect to providing funds to organizations which provide training expertise which may be housed outside of our province.

But I point out to the member that indeed the Provincial Auditor has looked at these issues and has said as recently as the report that as of May '93, the program objectives are clearly defined in consistence with the program's mandate. Training activities are appropriately organized and controlled, performance criteria in place to monitor achievement of results, management decisions are timely and based upon relevant information, and accountability reporting‑‑and I think this is the essence of the member's question‑‑on financial activities undertaken and results achieved is provided.

Mr. Speaker, that is the outside, third‑party endorsement of the principles around this program and the general criteria that are in place as having been judged by the Provincial Auditor.

I say to the member and indeed all Manitobans, who of course are interested in this program, that the highest independent court in the land, this being the Provincial Auditor, has looked at this program and certainly has given it endorsement.

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Mr. Edwards: Again for the minister‑‑and I will look forward to the minister bringing forward the specific criteria as to giving Manitoba taxpayers' dollars to outside individuals, indeed outside of this country‑‑can the minister indicate what criteria were applied to this specific contract, given that there was at least one other company with an office already located in Winnipeg, the Phone Power company, which is a division of Stentor?

Can the minister indicate with respect to this particular grant to this company, which ended up having $42,000 leave the country, what the criteria applied for this training decision were and why the company already with an office in Winnipeg was not given the contract?

Mr. Manness: I can only again, at this time, and I will take the question as notice, indicate that the introduction of this company to Manitoba and the partnership between ACC and GWE allows for the development of an education infrastructure in telecommunications in Manitoba at Assiniboine Community College. This will result in an ongoing provincial training capability that will be instrumental in attracting other such businesses to Manitoba in the future.

What we attempted to do was put into place a synergy where that type of training could be provided at the community college that is located in Brandon.

So, through all of this and through gentle guidance and yet recognizing that criteria of the program had to be met, we were trying to establish within that training facility in Brandon that there would be an opportunity, in spite of the protestations from the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) who did not want to see this company‑‑we sensed there was greater opportunity for the community of Brandon, but that would be, of course, aided if indeed there were training capabilities at ACC.

Mr. Edwards: The minister uses the words "gentle guidance" which is one thing, Mr. Speaker, but having significant amounts of taxpayers' dollars leave this province and go to a company in Florida is a serious concern, I think, for all Manitobans. I will look forward to receiving more specifics, as the minister indicates.

My final question for the minister: Given that the overall cost of establishing this operation is $1.4 million, and with the Workforce 2000 money, the government is paying, in effect, in excess of 50 percent of that, does this represent the government's strategy which is essentially to look to outside investors to come in and essentially cover in excess of 50 percent of their start‑up costs? Is that going to be the new policy of this government in the coming years as they try to attract business, to pay in excess of 50 percent of the start‑up cost?

Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, the short answer to the question is no.

This initiative, again, is consistent with the government's focus on telecommunications as a priority sector for provincial economic growth and renewal.

Mr. Speaker, I do not have to tell the member opposite that the telemarketing industry in Canada is about to provide upwards of 200,000 to one million jobs by the end of this decade. The member has to decide for his party whether or not he believes Manitoba should have a place within this important sector.

Mr. Speaker, I say to him at this point in time, if we can support to some extent the training within this industry, and if the member chooses not to accept the thrust that we would like to see within this industry, then all he has to do is stand and say so.

This government is firmly committed to trying to carve out for itself, and indeed the people of this province, opportunities within this sector.

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Bill 22

Health Care System

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, in the health care field, this government continues to act first and then, after they get into trouble, ask questions. They did this in home care. They have done it in Pharmacare. They have done it in home care equipment and supplies.

Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier (Mr. Filmon).

By superimposing Bill 22 on all facilities, rural health facilities, personal care homes, community clinics, they have imposed a very unfair burden on many institutions. I am wondering, in light of the letters we have received from Winnipegosis, from Grandview, from Gilbert Plains and from other agencies, will the government now withdraw its application of that bill‑‑as it has, in a strait‑jacket fashion on all facilities, that it is affecting patients‑‑and rethink its policy in an area, for example, of hospitals where they have already cut out $58 million?

Hon. Leonard Derkach (Acting Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Health, I will take that question as notice.

Bill 22

Health Care System

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, my supplementary is also to the Premier.

Will the Premier order his Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to ask the department to withdraw its March 28 letter that was directed to all facilities that said Bill 22 must be imposed, because even organizations like the Manitoba Health Organization are not certain what the application is, except they have maybe heard something from the Premier in an interview?

Will they immediately withdraw that letter and clarify the situation for all those hospitals?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health is already on record that he will not allow any of the measures that are taken to impair patient care in the hospitals and personal care homes.

I further advise the member that the minister has a meeting scheduled with MHO later this week and that the whole issue is going to be resolved as a result of that meeting.

Health Care System

Layoffs

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary: Will the Premier now meet with the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) and can he advise this House that the last round of Connie Curran layoffs that we are awaiting from the Health Sciences Centre and St. Boniface, will they put those on hold?‑‑because those layoffs are sitting on the desk of the minister.

Will the Premier today announce to this House that he will formally put those on hold?‑‑because the system can no longer tolerate any more layoffs by this government.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I just caution the member opposite not to try and create fear and anxiety in minds of people. Any of the changes and decisions that will be made in the hospitals will be made by the administration in consultation with their staff, their patient‑care people and so on. The decisions that are made will be made only under the assurance that patient care will not be negatively impacted by any decisions that are made within the hospital scheme.

Work and Social Opportunities Inc.

Staffing

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, last year serious allegations were made about very serious problems at Work and Social Opportunities Inc. At that time I wrote to the minister and asked her to investigate and make changes. The reply from the minister was that they had investigated and everything was okay.

Given that there are still very serious concerns on the part of parents and staff about inadequate levels of staffing, inadequate levels of funding, inadequate staff training and no training at all for persons in the sheltered workshop, what is this minister prepared to do to ensure that there is qualified staff hired, adequate funding to do so and training for staff and clients?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for that question. It does provide me with the opportunity to put on the record that there are many people with mental disabilities throughout our province of Manitoba that are served very well through over 60‑some agencies that provide work experience and work day‑program opportunities for over 1,700 mentally handicapped Manitobans. Our commitment has been strong as a government and we will continue.

Through this year's budget process I have worked long and hard to ensure that there would be increased funding for those with mental disabilities so that we could provide more day programming and more opportunity for those with a mental disability.

Mr. Speaker, we have been working with WASO, with the board and with the staff as a result of the very serious allegation that came forward. As a result of our investigation, they will be hiring more staff to deal with the issues around safety and security.

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Mr. Martindale: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the answer of the minister, but I think that the report we heard today is really just symptomatic and what we need is some stability in this organization since 50‑‑what is the minister prepared to do to provide some stability to this organization since they have had a 50 percent turnover in staff in the last year?

Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, we do contract with agencies to provide services through my department on a regular basis. It is the board's responsibility to ensure that appropriate staffing levels are in place. We do not get involved in a board/staff issue. The area that we become involved in as government is in the area of safety and security for those clients that are served through the process.

When that issue was brought to our attention, we were extremely concerned that appropriate levels of staffing were in place to meet the needs of the clients that are served. As a result of our working with WASO, they have indicated to us that they will be hiring more staff to deal with the issue.

Mr. Martindale: Mr. Speaker, I would like to repeat the question to the minister, because obviously there needs to be much more accountability to the taxpayers of Manitoba.

What is this minister going to do to intervene to ensure that the board carries out its mandate and is accountable to the taxpayers for the large sums of money they get so that these problems do not recur?

Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, I take some exception to the comments from my honourable friend that we have no commitment or do not care about the mentally disabled in the province of Manitoba, because actions speak louder than words.

I have already indicated that there is a considerable increase, some $4 million, in this year's budget in the Department of Family Services to deal with issues surrounding the mentally disabled and their ability to live in the community and to work in the community and to have day programming opportunities in the community.

I have already indicated that a board/staff issue has to be dealt with at the board level, and we do entrust community boards to make decisions around appropriate levels of care. When an issue of safety or security comes to our attention, as the Department of Family Services we make every effort to ensure that there is that safety and security in place. We have already accomplished that by making recommendations that the board has accepted to put more staff in place to ensure safety and security.

Fishing Industry

Restocking Program

Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, the commercial fishing industry in Manitoba has been in some tough times over the past few years‑‑lower prices, higher costs and in most areas decline in pickerel and sauger stock in our lakes. This has been due to poor natural reproduction, some low water levels in the past few years, poor spawning success and a limited supply of pickerel fry for restocking from this province.

My question to the Minister of Natural Resources is: Can this minister tell this House and Manitoba fishermen what action is his department taking to correct the situation, and does he have a plan to restore and maintain the fishing stock in our lakes?

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to answer that question. Everybody that is involved with commercial fishing, of course, realizes that the prices have been dramatically low, not in Manitoba, not in Canada, but on an international basis. As a result of that, it has created a lot of pressure on our commercial fishing people as well as the fact that the last number of years have not been good years for catching fish. This is common knowledge.

I have had the occasion to meet with various groups of the commercial fishermen, and we are looking at developing the possibility together with communities to develop fish hatcheries. We are in the process of having those discussions right now and, hopefully, we can bring something forward together with the communities to address that concern.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Speaker, the commercial fishermen of Fisher River, Waterhen and Lake St. Martin submitted such a program to this minister just 10 days ago.

Has this minister had a chance to look at the proposal? Will he support this proposal? What is his department going to do with this project?

Mr. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, I just answered the question to some degree saying that we are talking with the various commercial fishing groups, that one of the priorities that I like to establish is we will take and do a lot more of the fish raising, fish hatcheries, together with the communities.

The fact that an application was made 10 days ago and the member is asking me what kind of action are we taking, Mr. Speaker, we are talking about changing the whole concept of fish stocking and we are in the process of doing that.

Northern Freight Assistance Program

Reinstatement

Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary to the minister: Will this minister re‑establish funding to the Northern Freight subsidy? Since funds were cut in a previous budget that have caused financial stress to our northern fishermen, will he at least bring the subsidy back to the level it was before?

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, when my colleague the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) was Minister of Natural Resources, I think the subsidy was in the area of $300,000 to $400,000. My immediate predecessor the member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns), when he was minister, that gradually escalated up to $500,000.

Two years ago, the decision was made to limit it at $250,000, and that program is still in effect there to try and assist the northern people. It is prorated based on distance, and it is still there to assist some of the commercial fishermen.

Literacy Programs

Funding

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education.

The cost of illiteracy to the province is very high and at one point in time we felt somewhat optimistic that the government was in fact going to address the issue of illiteracy and try to do something about it. The reason why I felt that was false expectations I guess more than anything else.

I want to quote from the government throne speech in 1991: "Our education system will aim at increased levels of literacy and other basic skills . . . ." This is what this government said in the throne speech of 1991. At the same time, what did we see in the most recent budget?

My question is: How does the government demonstrate its commitment to increasing levels of literacy by cutting back on literacy programs and continuing education? That appears to be a bit of a conflict, Mr. Speaker?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, the question of literacy today is on the minds of most people involved in public policy. I can indicate to the member that the councils that have been put into place, literacy council that was put into place by this government and which fostered the development of many volunteer groups throughout our communities, has worked extremely well. It is a model that is being followed throughout Canada because, indeed, this literacy question is not a government reserve. Indeed, it is not only the opposition parties that are interested or an