LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Wednesday, May 4, 1994

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

PRAYERS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

PRESENTING PETITIONS

Thompson General Hospital Patient Care

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of John G. Clemons, Elizabeth M. Scott, Isabel Cook and others requesting the Legislative Assembly to request the government of Manitoba to consider reviewing the impact of reductions in patient care at the Thompson General Hospital with a view towards restoring current levels of patient care and, further, to ask the provincial government to implement real health care reform based on full participation of patients, health care providers and the public, respect for the principles of medicare and an understanding of the particular needs of northern Manitoba.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

Government Promotion of Gambling

Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Edwards). It complies with the privileges and the practices of this House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

Some Honourable Members: Yes.

Mr. Speaker: The Clerk will read.

Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned residents of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation (MLC) is wholly owned by the Province of Manitoba;

WHEREAS MLC spends millions of dollars encouraging Manitobans to gamble;

WHEREAS 90 percent of people gambling at government‑owned casinos are Manitobans, not tourists;

WHEREAS there has been a massive increase in gambling in Manitoba;

WHEREAS the cost to society of widespread gambling includes paying for addiction programs, increased welfare payments, increased use of food banks and a reduction of resources available for charities;

WHEREAS a full public debate on the role of government in the gambling industry is long overdue and necessary to give Manitobans an opportunity to assess the full financial and social costs of gambling within the province;

WHEREAS Liberal members of the Legislative Assembly have been unable to gain access to the five‑year plan of MLC and other critical statistical information which would assist elected representatives to assess the direction of MLC and the promotion of gambling in the province.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly urge the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation (Mr. Ernst) to consider initiating a full public debate on the role of government in owning establishments and promoting gambling in Manitoba.

TABLING OF REPORTS

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table Supplementary Information for the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism for the 1994‑95 Departmental Expenditure Estimates.

Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to revert to Reading and Receiving Petitions? [agreed]

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

(continued)

Brandon University Foundation Directors

Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Leonard Evans). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

Some Honourable Members: Dispense.

Mr. Speaker: Dispense.

The petition of Brandon University Foundation praying for the passing of an act to increase the number of directors of the foundation to not more than 42 or not less than eight persons of whom three shall be members of the Board of Governors of Brandon University.

Introduction of Guests

Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us today from the Technical Youth Education Association of Germany, Mr. Thomas Haensgen, Mr. Ralf Wenzel, Mr. Manfred Bisanz, Dr. Ruth Haensgen and Mrs. Rosmarie Bisanz.

They are under the direction of Mr. Alfons Schoeps, who is the executive director of the Partnership of Parliaments and are accompanied by Mrs. Alexandra Pfeiffer of the German‑Canadian Congress and Mr. and Mrs. Rubin Spletzer.

On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here today.

Also with us this afternoon, seated in the public gallery we have from the Elmwood High School 20 English language students under the direction of Mrs. Judy Johnson. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Concordia (Mr. Doer).

Also this afternoon, from the Sisler High School we have thirty‑five Grade 11 students under the direction of Miss Marilyn Thompson. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux).

On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon.

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ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

Manitoba Telephone System

Faneuil Corporation Agreement

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier.

We have been raising questions before about the Manitoba Telephone System and its public enterprise here in Manitoba which we feel is essential for our future information highway in the province of Manitoba.

During the Premier's Estimates, the Premier indicated that no agreements were signed with Faneuil dealing with the Manitoba Telephone System.

We have received a copy of a memo indicating there is a telemarketing service agreement between the Manitoba Telephone System and Faneuil Limited which was announced in March of 1994.

We understand that this agreement will require money to be paid from the Telephone System to Faneuil to provide telemarketing services which were originally conducted inside the Manitoba Telephone System by Manitoba Telephone System staff.

I would like to ask the Premier: Is there an agreement with Faneuil, with the government and the Telephone System? What impact will that agreement have on the 200 people that potentially will be laid off with the announcement yesterday by the Telephone System?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, this is why I suggested to the member opposite that I was willing to try and be flexible and let him ask questions about all sorts of things, such as the Telephone System and Industry, Trade and Tourism and Lotteries and everything else, but that realistically I was just attempting to be as co‑operative as possible in discussing issues with him.

That is a matter that falls directly between the Telephone System and within their mandate and one that I had no involvement in, obviously. So if he wants to have more discussion about it, he should either pose the question to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System (Mr. Findlay) or communicate with the Telephone System officials when they appear before a committee of the Legislature as they do during the course of this session.

Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the Premier did say during his Estimates that services within the Telephone System would not be, for the most part, I believe he said, sold off to Faneuil company, or we are not in negotiations with Faneuil Corporation.

This clearly is opposite to that. The contract requires the Telephone System to pay some $4 million to Faneuil Corporation over three years.

I would like to ask the Premier: Are there any other services that are being negotiated between the province of Manitoba? The Premier is the chair of the Economic Committee of Cabinet. He is dealing directly with many corporations, dealing with issues of jobs and services that we provide.

Are there any other services that could be affected by government negotiations with the company Faneuil in terms of the province of Manitoba?

Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, as I understand it, these are not services within the Telephone System. This is telemarketing.

This telemarketing, by many corporations, is done on the basis of contracting with the various people who are experts in that field. Faneuil, for instance, as a company does those services for all sorts of people, major corporations right across North America, so that is something that is within their expertise. If the Manitoba Telephone System sees some advantage in having them do that for them, then obviously that is a choice that they make.

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Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, there are many programs within the Manitoba Telephone System that are provided that are very profitable.

The Manitoba Telephone System previously had their own telemarketing division. Previously, they held the rights to cablevision delivery. They hold the rights to Yellow Pages, which is very profitable; 411 is another profitable area of the Manitoba Telephone System. Long distance competition or long distance dialing outside the province used to be a profitable area to subsidize rural and northern rates here in Manitoba.

So I would ask the Premier: What services from our Crown corporation are in discussion and in play with the private corporation Faneuil as part of the government's priority to attract Faneuil to Manitoba?

Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, I correct the member opposite. The Manitoba Telephone System did not own cablevision in this province. They owned the cable. All services attached to the cable, all telebroadcasting and everything else was owned by private sector. Those people used that as a highway upon which they attached value‑added services. What happened was that for value, for a value greater than the net book value as estimated by an independent accounting firm, the company sold that cable to those who are adding the services to the cable. That is all that happened.

I would say to the member opposite that my information is that Faneuil Corporation's services are being primarily sold to corporations who need their telemarketing expertise, and that is the essence of discussions that are going on with them. There was talk at one time about the 411 and that is off the table. To my knowledge, it is not part of continuing discussions with them.

Fetal Alcohol Syndrome Children

Foster Care Placement

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I think all of us here would agree that fetal alcohol syndrome is a very serious problem in our society and one about which all of us are concerned. Right now, Northwest Area of Winnipeg Child and Family Services has 95 children with fetal alcohol syndrome in temporary or emergency placements waiting for foster homes.

I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services what her government is doing to improve this situation and to find permanent foster homes for these children since the alternative now is hotels like the Place Louis Riel and motels and four‑bed units in emergency placements.

What is the government doing to find permanent foster homes for these children?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, the issue of fetal alcohol syndrome is indeed a very serious issue and one that should be of concern to all Manitobans. We have as a government increased our support to Child and Family Services through the child welfare system by some well over $6 million this year, and we have in increasing amounts been taking more children into care and indeed providing more services, more dollars, in the child welfare system. There is no easy answer to the issue.

I think we have to look at what the cause of fetal alcohol syndrome is and work very aggressively with young girls who might be at risk, to try to encourage no use of alcohol and educate them in understanding that fetal alcohol syndrome is indeed a very serious issue that is going to provide major, major problems and increased costs not only in our child welfare system, but indeed in our health care system.

Foster Families

Long‑Term Care Per Diems

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister why they have cut foster family rates by 50 percent for long‑term placements.

If, as the minister says, she is concerned about this problem, why are they making it harder to find placements for children, instead of easier?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, I reject totally the supposition by the member opposite that, in fact, we are not going to have foster homes to look after these children. I indicated in my first answer that we have over $6 million in the child welfare system, more this year than we had last year. But, obviously, when you see the numbers of dollars that are needed and the increased caseloads coming into our child welfare system, the system we have in place today is not working.

We are working aggressively, and we have worked with the Winnipeg agency around this issue. Our new vision and our new focus for child welfare is for family support, family preservation and family responsibility.

Mr. Speaker, we have a fund of $2.5 million within our child welfare budget for early intervention, early child development and support for families who want to work with children.

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Fetal Alcohol Syndrome

Warning Labels

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister, since she believes in prevention, if her government is going to proclaim and implement an amendment that was made to The Liquor Control Act in the last session which would have required labels on liquor and wine bottles warning that alcohol consumption during pregnancy causes defects.

Will the government implement what they promised to do in the last session?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister charged with the administration of The Liquor Control Act): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to let the member know that we have been working with the federal government and the MLCC board and staff to look at options there. We have recently come out with a poster that will be available in all of the facilities. We are also looking at some of the issues around labelling and hope to have something brought forward in the near future.

Manitoba Telephone System

Layoffs

Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System, and I want to table correspondence dated yesterday from Mr. Bill Hales, who is the business manager of the Telecommunications Employees Association of Manitoba to Mr. Denis Sutton, the vice‑president of Human Resources at MTS.

That correspondence makes clear two things. Firstly, the TEAM union which represents 1,200 members who work for MTS was still in negotiations with MTS at the time that this announcement of 200 layoffs came up. It also goes on to say that they never did vote and the reason they did not vote was because the Human Resources department had made an error in their money calculations and was redoing that. Meanwhile, without a vote, without continuing negotiations, this decision comes down.

My question for the minister: Given that clearly at least this group of 1,200 employees, as well as others, say that the clear choice that the government laid out yesterday was never put to the employees of MTS, what is the government going to do to ensure that the employees, the members, the people who are going to get hurt by these layoffs do get the opportunity to make an informed decision on the record?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the administration of The Manitoba Telephone Act): Mr. Speaker, that member has heard from one side of the discussion between two individuals, Mr. Hales and Mr. Sutton. Mr. Sutton tells me that they had met with all three unions starting back on February 14 and laid out options. Two unions voted and the union that the member opposite is talking about, the TEAM union, made an executive decision to turn down the offer from MTS.

The member also makes mention of an error in a figure and MTS tells me they corrected that error the next day and informed the individual involved of the error that they had made.

Mr. Speaker, the story he is putting in front of the public is not necessarily consistent with the story that I am getting from MTS. I would ask him to understand there are two sides in the discussion, but MTS is of a very clear opinion that all three unions made a response of an answer of no.

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Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, there may be two sides; there may be 18 sides. There is only one side of this that counts, and that is the employees who are going to get hurt. Let us be clear that neither Mr. Pedde nor this minister nor Mr. Hales‑‑their jobs are not at risk here. It is the 200 members working for MTS; they are the losers in this. They are saying, through their representatives and individually, that they never got that clear choice. They have said that throughout the MTS structure.

Will this government not put that to the members in those clear terms, because they say they never got the chance to vote.

Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, I want that member to very clearly understand that the government has laid the option in front of MTS to allow those people to all have their jobs, and that is Bill 22, the days off. That option was put in front of the three unions on February 14 and February 21 very clearly.

That member is‑‑I do not know which side of the argument he wants to be on, but it is not on the side of the employees. The employees have a chance to support the Bill 22 option, and I understand that some employees are now wanting another chance to vote. We have said yesterday in this House and the MTS executives say, if they want to change their minds and accommodate the reduction in cost by taking the 10 days off, the door is very much open.

Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, let us be clear that we are on the side of the people who are going to get hurt by this, the 200 employees who are going to be laid off. That is the bottom line.

My question for the minister: Will he immediately advise Mr. Pedde to contact the unions and ensure that there is a vote on this clear issue, because they say they were never guaranteed there would not be layoffs. They were asked to take the 10 days off and they were told it would have an impact on layoffs, but they were never told that there were layoffs or 10 days off. That question was never put to them. They want a chance to decide.

Will the minister communicate to Mr. Pedde that that clear decision, that clear choice must be put to the members of MTS?

Mr. Findlay: The option of the members to vote was always a very clear option the union could use. Mr. Speaker, two unions used that option; one did not. They all have the option of going to the membership with a vote. We have very clearly said, we want the‑‑

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Leader of the second opposition party has asked his question, and I am sure we want to give a chance to the honourable minister to respond.

Mr. Findlay: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We are very clearly on the side of preserving jobs, as we have done in the last two years in this province, and kept costs under control. I can assure the member that the management of MTS has an open door in terms of the opportunity of accepting that option of days off to save that amount of salary, as it did in 1993.

Mr. Speaker, that member wants to negotiate a decision over at MTS in this House, and I refuse to do that. I allow MTS to manage their corporation responsibly. That member does not want that to happen, and I deplore his position.

Points of Order

Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, the minister has impugned that I somehow was incorrect about asking this government‑‑the Finance minister said that he directed the Crown corporation to do the layoffs. This‑‑

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. That is clearly a dispute over the facts.

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Mr. Speaker: Are you up on another point of order? The honourable Minister responsible for‑‑order, please. You are not on the record yet. The honourable Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System. Now you have the floor, sir.

Mr. Findlay: I want to remind the member that in my answers today I told him that the three unions met with MTS on February 14 and February 21, and I want him to realize that, that the discussions have been ongoing for a long time.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable minister does not have a point of order. Again, it is a dispute over the facts.

Public Housing

Rental Increase

Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): My question is to the Minister of Housing.

Mr. Speaker, this government continues to attack the poorest of the poor in our society. Yesterday, seniors and families living in public housing were informed that their rents are going to increase substantially, and property tax rebates will be clawed back. I would like to table the letters pertaining to that.

Can the minister tell this House which level of government, the federal Liberals or the provincial Conservatives, argued for this new tax on low‑income Manitobans?

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Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Housing): I can say that, indeed, the federal government has asked that provinces across the country move their RGI up in order to help cover some of the costs of housing, and provinces across the country are doing that. British Columbia, for example, is at 30 percent. New Brunswick has moved to 30 percent, and Nova Scotia is at 27 percent. Ontario is moving their scales up, as well.

Mr. Speaker, there are several reasons for this happening. As you know, or you may not know, the federal government has also opted out of funding new housing monies for new public housing, therefore it becomes critically important that the existing housing be maintained and repaired in good shape, since there will be no more cost‑sharing from the federal government on new housing.

The rent going to 27 percent for tenants will not be for all tenants, of course. The bachelor suites for elderly people or for any person who is living in a bachelor suite remains at 25 percent, and we have hundreds and hundreds of vacant bachelor suites that are available to those who still only want to pay 25 percent of their income on rent.

Mr. Hickes: Mr. Speaker, can the minister table that document she was quoting from?

Mr. Speaker, the minister should know that seniors and others on fixed incomes automatically pay more rent every time there is a small increase in their pensions or their support payments.

Will the minister, in fairness to people on fixed and low incomes, immediately suspend this increase on Manitoba's poorest families?

Mrs. McIntosh: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I should indicate first of all that I do not have a document in front of me to table, so I am not‑‑

An Honourable Member: He does.

Mrs. McIntosh: Oh, well, I am sorry, I do not.

What I do have now though, of course, is a paper that the member has just provided me which is the letter which we have sent out notifying people that the RGI here would begin to be similar to the RGI in other provinces, particularly other NDP provinces such as British Columbia which is not at 27 percent but at 30 percent, where the cost of housing is much higher and the other expenses involved in living are much higher than they are in Manitoba.

I should also indicate that the other NDP provinces that are moving towards 27 percent, 30 percent have costs of living for their people that are much in excess of what we have here as well.

We are trying to move towards harmony across the country at the request of the federal government. We are also trying to maintain our housing stock which in Manitoba is now aging. Our housing stock is about 20 years old and does require maintenance now of a nature that it did not require in earlier years. We must maintain that stock.

As I have indicated, there are hundreds and hundreds of available suites for people at 25 percent still‑‑

Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Hickes: Mr. Speaker, the property tax credit was very unique across Canada. It was set up under the Schreyer government. Now it is being clawed back.

I would like to ask the minister if she will ask the federal Liberals to stop this nonsense of picking on the seniors who worked so hard to make Canada what it is, and to stop picking on the poorest of the poor. Show some fairness here.

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Speaker, that was a two‑part question so I would like to be able to answer both parts.

I should indicate that a couple of months ago, Housing ministers from across this nation did indeed go and meet with the federal Liberal Minister of Housing and did indeed ask that the cost‑sharing on new housing be put back. The federal minister refused to do that. He did, however, say that any monies that we could save or break out of rents and so on, we would be able to be allowed to use that to repair and improve our existing stock and not have to return it to the federal government or be penalized for it in any way.

In terms of the property tax, Mr. Speaker, people in private sector housing pay property taxes through their rent. For people in public housing, the property tax is independent of the rent that is paid and independent of the property taxes that we, the landlord, being the government in this case‑‑so we have been giving a rebate on that.

Health Care System

Deinsured Services

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, yesterday the minister tabled during the Estimates for the first time the MMA agreement and we are thankful for that.

Mr. Speaker, my question to the minister today is: The MMA sent a letter out to all of their members‑‑and the MMA is the co‑chair of this particular agreement‑‑which says, and I will quote, and I will table this letter: Some services will be deinsured.

Can the minister confirm that, as a result of the new agreement with the MMA, some medical services in this province will be deinsured?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): No, Mr. Speaker, I cannot tell the honourable member about that because the medical services arrangements that are dealt with through the Medical Services Council have yet to be addressed by the Medical Services Council which is set up through this agreement and has membership on it on the part of the medical profession, the government, consumers, health researchers, regulatory people.

It will be those people who assist the government in administering the medical services appropriation, and until that council is up and running and making recommendations, we do not have any in front of us.

There will be a variety of options available to them. The honourable member has raised the issue of laboratory fees and services. I do not know, maybe he has raised the issue of walk‑in clinics, and issues like that can also be looked at by the council as they arrive at potential recommendations to make to government.

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Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, could the minister also explain in this same release to all the members, the quote that the number of medical services that the government purchases on the public's behalf may be expected to decline overall. Can the minister perhaps explain that quote in the letter from the co‑chair of that very committee the minister has talked about?

Mr. McCrae: Well, Mr. Speaker, I hope the services delivered to the person who visited the doctor 247 times in one year declines. I can hope for that. That is one of the positive features of the agreement as well. We are going to be able to address issues like abuse and misuse of the health system, because those who need health care services in Manitoba want that. They do not want to see health dollars wasted.

We are very glad to have the partnership of the medical association in addressing these issues that have been left unaddressed for many, many years because of lack of success on the part of successive governments and MMA leaderships to come to grips and to work together. I am very glad we are able to do that now because Manitobans will be the beneficiaries.

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary to the minister is: What is the government plan for deinsurance and the reduction of medical services since, for the first time as a part of the agreement, we see a plan for deinsurance and reduction in the total number of medical services provided by government?

Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, I answered that question the first time the minister rose to ask his question. All of the items‑‑[interjection] Oh, I am sorry. Pardon me. I meant the honourable member. I understand I called him a minister, which is really quite a slip, is it not?

I did answer the honourable member's question the first time he asked it. The Medical Services Council's role will be to look at all of the services provided under our medical services appropriation and to appropriately use the dollars. We are satisfied there are enough dollars there. The medical profession is satisfied there are enough dollars there, but the capped number of physicians practising in Manitoba and appropriately distributed number of physicians throughout the province, which is more equitable than we have seen in the past, I expect to see improvements in health care delivery for Manitobans.

Grain Transportation

Hopper Car Shortage

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, the whole grain transportation system in Manitoba is being backed up because of shortage of grain cars. It is estimated that farmers will lose close to $2 million in sales because we cannot deliver grain. Two federal government committees are holding public hearings this week to come up with a solution to this problem and make recommendations by the end of the week.

My question is to the Minister of Agriculture.

I want to ask if he will be making representation at this committee on behalf of Manitoba producers. Will he be recommending that there is a need for more cars in the system in order to meet the needs of producers and buyers from the Canadian market?

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to report to the honourable member and to the House, anticipating that very question, I met with the senior vice‑president of the CPR two weeks ago. He assured me and indicated to us that they were addressing this admittedly serious problem, that they were in the process of bringing upwards of 3,000 additional cars into the system.

I read, in fact, just yesterday in the reports in one of the farm papers‑‑I do not know whether it was the Western Producer or the Manitoba Co‑operator‑‑that the situation is resolving itself.

In any event, I make it my business to be at these meetings. I will certainly make a continued representation about the importance of having rolling stock available to move the farmers' grain.

Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, the minister indicates that the problem is being solved. I am afraid he is not very accurate on that.

Mr. Speaker, because of the slow grain movement, our producers are facing increased costs on farm and at the ports as well. I want to ask the minister whether he will recommend to the committee or to the federal government‑‑whether they will look at having railways take some responsibility in this crisis and whether he will ask them to force the railways to pay penalties that can be enforced under the Western Grain Transportation Act, so that railways will pick up some of the demurrage costs that farmers are now being forced to pick up.

Mr. Enns: Mr. Speaker, the question of demurrage charges is an interesting one coming from that side of the House. Perhaps the biggest single demurrage bill faced by Manitoba and indeed farmers across Canada are those caused when organized labour in the grain handlers' strike walk out and leave 50 to 60 ships idling in Vancouver harbour while the farmers pick up thousands and thousands of dollars of demurrage charges.

The issue of better utilization of rail cars is one that is very high up on the list of priorities. It was discussed most recently at an Ag ministers conference in Regina with the federal minister, Mr. Goodale, and I am satisfied that with a co‑operative effort on the part of the railways we will resolve this issue.

There has been a very serious change in the pattern of grain movement, much of it quite frankly caused by the massive movement of grain into the U.S. market, which has seen our cars, our hopper cars and the CPR and CNR stock in far‑distant places where they normally have not been. So these are some of the conditions that prevail.

Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, yesterday it was the rain, today it is the union workers, but this government‑‑

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Swan River, with your question.

Port of Churchill

Grain Exports

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture whether he is lobbying the federal government in any way to have more grain shipped through the Port of Churchill where the turnaround time for hopper cars is not as long. That will relieve much of the pressure that is on the elevators right now and farmers will be able to get rid of more of their grain in this crop year.

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, I can only reconfirm that this government, from my Premier (Mr. Filmon) to my colleague the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey), from present Ministers of Transportation, past Ministers of Transportation‑‑seldom has a government shown such continued determination to maintain and hopefully bring economic viability to the Port of Churchill, but I will rest on that record, and indeed commit myself to doing that.

University of Manitoba

Student Fees

Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, the University of Manitoba has instituted a brand new student service fee. This fee amounts to $1.75 per credit, which amounts to for, let us say, a student taking a first‑year program in Arts about $55, which is about 2 percent of an increase on top of the 5 percent increase in tuition fees.

My question is to the Minister of Finance: Because of his recent budget, will the Minister of Finance move to meet with the University of Manitoba and to direct them to not allow this extra student fee, which is in fact making a mockery of the 5 percent cap on the tuition fees?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I believe a very similar question was asked of our Minister of Education (Mr. Manness) just a few days ago, and I will take this question as notice on his behalf.

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Ms. Gray: Mr. Speaker, with a supplementary question to the Minister of Finance: Is the Minister of Finance suggesting that in fact he is not aware of what the impact is of his budget when he talks about a 5 percent tuition fee increase?

Can he tell this House, is the student fee increase, the $1.75 per credit hour, is that in line with his budget in terms of the 5 percent cap? Is it consistent? Surely, he can tell us that.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, again, as the Minister of Education (Mr. Manness) responded to, when this question was asked of him, consistent with last year's practice, we did impose a ceiling of no more than a 5 percent increase in tuition fees. That is consistent with what we are able to do within the realm of our jurisdiction.

I indicated this particular question about that additional student fee, the Minister of Education is dealing with, and as I indicated, I will take that part of the question as notice.

Ms. Gray: Mr. Speaker, with a final supplementary to the Minister of Finance: Will he get his front bench together, in perhaps a cabinet meeting, and discuss this very serious issue and direct the University of Manitoba‑‑because other universities are now looking at this‑‑tell them that they are in fact not keeping in line with the 5 percent tuition increase, and that in fact they should not be charging the $1.75 per full credit hour? Will he do that?

Mr. Stefanson: It is interesting, the views of the Liberal Party, Mr. Speaker. On the one hand, in a question earlier today, the Leader of the Liberal Party is expressing concern about government direct involvement in an independent Crown agency; on the other hand, a question two minutes later, we now get a member wanting us to directly intervene with an independent board. I wish they could become consistent in terms of what they view a government's role as being, or what they view the roles of independent board and Crown corporations being.

Adult Language Programs

Funding

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, last year, when the government cut for a second year in a row the settlement in adult language training funds in the budget, the then‑Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship stated that she and her government were still committed to providing services to new Canadians.

In this International Year of the Family, in the latest budget the government has further reduced these programs by almost 8 percent.

I would like to ask the government why they have continued to say one thing and done another when it comes to these vital services for immigrants and refugees to our province.

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. Speaker, I look forward to getting into the Estimates process with the member for Wellington to look at the detail of the budget and of this department.

Major reductions have been put in place by the federal government in the assistance they give to that area. Our support is basically the same. In fact, I am told that we have vacancies in that area that are not being filled.

Ms. Barrett: I wonder if the minister can explain the thought processes that went into their decisions to give the multinational corporation IBM $50,000 for worker‑training programs at the same time that it has allowed to be cut, by almost 8 percent, training for adult settlement and languages to the immigrants and new Canadians in this province.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I have indicated very clearly to the member, and I know that she has a difficult time listening while she is talking, the support that we have given in that area is basically the same. In fact, we have a waiting list and some vacancies there so that we are giving all the support that is required in that area.

Ms. Barrett: I do not appreciate, Mr. Speaker, the personal attacks by the minister.

Is the government able to explain how all Manitobans will, quote, share the pain, as many ministers on the government side have said in this budget and others of the government's difficult decisions, when it has spent almost $2 million on advertising its lottery programs in the province of Manitoba while, whether it is the federal government cutback or the provincial government cutback, adult language and settlement services have been cut for the people of Manitoba by almost 8 percent?

Mr. Gilleshammer: First of all, I would like to assure the member that it was not a personal comment. I apologize if she took it that way.

I have indicated that we have maintained considerable funding in that area and that we do have spaces that are not being filled. I sense what the member is asking is that we devote more money to that area so that we can have more spaces that do not need to be filled.

We are taking care of the demand that is there now, and we will monitor that very carefully.

Thompson General Hospital

Bed Closures

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Yesterday and today I tabled the first in a series of petitions that were signed by more than 5,000 northern Manitobans in regard to the situation at Thompson General Hospital.

There were 100 hospital beds. That has been cut to 85 by the hospital because of financial pressures. Last August the government announced rural hospital guidelines. They were to further reduce the number of beds in Thompson and many other rural hospitals. In response to the uproar, the minister put that on hold.

I would like to ask the minister: Given the fact that other services have been decentralized in terms of mental health, will the minister indicate now the status of the review of those cuts that would have seen the reduction of 18 hospital beds, would have seen reductions in the emergency ward, the intensive care unit and many of the wards at the Thompson General Hospital?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): I thank the honourable member for the question. It accords me an opportunity to remind the honourable member of the commitment our government has to the Thompson General Hospital and to the people of the North.

I do not think ever before has a government been able to offer the full range of psychiatric services that we are offering to the people of the Thompson area. We are creating 40 new health care jobs and opening 10 acute psychiatric beds. We are bringing a psychiatrist to Thompson. We are bringing obstetric services to the Thompson hospital, and we are also, province‑wide, putting into effect a psychiatric enhancement program for general practitioners in Manitoba.

The honourable member asks about staffing guidelines, and that is an important matter. It is not fair, I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that some hospitals get to operate with higher staff‑to‑patient ratios than other hospitals, all other things being equal. But we do have also to look at the unique circumstances in Thompson and we will do that.

We are not trying to prolong the review of the staffing guidelines because people whose jobs might be affected just simply want to know what that effect is going to be. We are moving as efficiently as we can to complete that review.

Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, well, that is part of the problem. Already many staff have left because of the pending layoffs.

I would like to ask the minister: When will the committee that he established to review the rural hospital guidelines be reporting‑‑the four, I believe, four subcommittees that are looking at specific items‑‑and when will the uncertainty be over for the Thompson General Hospital, the Flin Flon General Hospital, The Pas hospital and many other rural facilities that do not know whether they are going to be cut back significantly under the guidelines that were announced originally last August?

Mr. McCrae: I am glad the honourable member mentioned The Pas hospital because we are going to be opening eight new psychiatric beds at The Pas general hospital and creating 20 new health care jobs in the Norman area and enhancing, again, mental health services and ensuring that those hospitals in those regions provide quality care to the people who need the services there.

The same comments apply that I made, Mr. Speaker, with respect to the Thompson hospital. It is not fair for those communities that have been successfully operating within staffing guidelines not to have had to abide by those rules, always keeping in mind the uniquenesses of the different hospitals and the services provided in the different communities and the different levels of acuity of illness.

Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.

Committee Changes

Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I move, seconded by the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts be amended as follows: the member for Kirkfield Park (Mr. Stefanson) for the member for Morris (Mr. Manness); the member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer) for the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner); the member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Rose) for the member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Pallister); and the member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) to fill a vacant spot that we have.

Motion agreed to.

NONPOLITICAL STATEMENT

Churchill Airport

Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Rupertsland have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed]

Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased today to congratulate the staff of the Churchill airport and the many residents of Churchill for their work and hospitality over the past weekend.

As members may be aware, a Boeing 767 flying from London, England to Los Angeles was forced to make an emergency landing in Churchill when the engine lost power over this past weekend. Fortunately, the plane landed safely and there were no injuries. A replacement plane flew to Churchill on Sunday to take the passengers, in order for them to complete their journey.

Over 200 passengers, along with the crew, were treated extremely well by the town while they were there. In fact, this is a regular occurrence. Almost every year in which trans‑Atlantic flights run into problems and trouble they use the Churchill airport for emergency landings due to its location and also its facilities.

The airport at Churchill, with its long ribbon and ability to take any size of plane, is a vital asset of this province and is highly valued by airlines around the world. This most recent case again shows us how important and valuable the airport truly is.

Once again I want to congratulate the people of Churchill for their assistance in this recent incident. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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ORDERS OF THE DAY

House Business

Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, firstly, on a matter of House business, tomorrow at 10 a.m. in Room 255 the Committee on Public Accounts will meet. Next Thursday, May 12, in Room 255 a committee will meet‑‑the appropriate committee to be decided between the Clerk and myself, perhaps to consider the report of A. E. McKenzie Seed Co. Ltd.

That concludes House business.

For today if you would call then, Mr. Speaker, Bill No. 7, Bill No. 8, Bill No. 10, Bill No. 2 and Bill No. 3 in that order. That is 7, 8, 10, 2 and 3.

Following second readings of those bills, and if there is no debate from members opposite, then I will be proposing the motion to resolve into Committee of Supply

Mr. Speaker: I thank the honourable government House leader for that information.

SECOND READINGS

Bill 7‑‑The Crown Lands Amendment Act

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that Bill 7, The Crown Lands Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la Loi sur les terres domaniales), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House.

Motion presented.

Mr. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, in giving second reading to this short bill, The Crown Lands Amendment Act, I have the usual spreadsheets that I try and make available to the critics of the opposition. I would like to table those for the critics sometime, I guess.

Mr. Speaker: Well, then we will do it right now. I want you to table those documents.

Mr. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, work permits under The Crown Lands Act were introduced in 1983 amendments to the act as a single means of controlling activities on Crown lands. This included lands designated under other resources acts such as parks, provincial forests or wildlife management areas. Staff who are responsible for issuing and enforcing work permits have identified the need to make the use of work permits more enforceable. Legal counsel has advised that the proposed amendment will accomplish this purpose.

Section 7 of the act is to be amended to state that failure to obtain or failure to comply with conditions of a work permit is an offence. Section 33 of the act is to be amended by increasing the general penalty from $2,000 to $10,000. This is consistent with changes in other resource legislation bringing fines for contravening the act to a more reasonable level. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I move, seconded by the member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), that debate be adjourned.

Motion agreed to.

Bill 8‑‑The Fisheries Amendment Act

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey), that Bill 8, The Fisheries Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la Loi sur la pêche) be now read a second time and referred to a committee of this House.

Motion presented.

Mr. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, the spreadsheets for both this bill and the next one, I will present them at the end of my comments. So at that time, I will make that available too.

Mr. Speaker, the provincial Fisheries Act contains no direct authority for Natural Resources officers to stop and search vehicles for the purpose of inspecting species and the quantity of fish being transported, checking fishing equipment, proper Fisheries licensing or for Fisheries violations.

To address this shortcoming, Manitoba is introducing an amendment to The Fisheries Act Chapter F90 which will add authority for inspectors to stop and inspect vehicles to ensure compliance of Fisheries legislation. All existing enforcement practices have failed to adequately address the illegal sale and transportation of fish to properly control and manage our fisheries resource.

Because of the potential value of the fisheries products being bought, sold and transported, the existing $500 maximum penalty is outdated and is not an effective deterrent. A maximum fine of $10,000 is consistent with the potential value of the product and reflects recent significant fine increases in the federal Fisheries legislation for similar offences‑‑example, from $10,000 to $100,000 at the federal level‑‑and is also consistent with recent provincial parks legislation. The department considers these amendments crucial to ensuring compliance.

Similar legislation exists under The Wildlife Act, Manitoba, which states that an officer may signal or request any person driving a vehicle to stop, and thereupon the person shall bring the vehicle to a stop and shall not proceed until permitted to do so by the officer.

The parks act, which was approved in the 1993 session of the Legislature, also contains similar provisions, while the wildlife acts of Saskatchewan and Alberta contain similar sections.

The Constitutional Law branch has suggested that in order to properly support the new stop vehicle power we should amend the act to put in place appropriate search provisions. The current act contains only an inspection power which in itself is insufficient to allow search of a vehicle.

I believe there will be strong general support from Manitobans. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I move, seconded by the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie), that debate be adjourned.

Motion agreed to.

Bill 10‑‑The Wildlife Amendment Act

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), that Bill 10, The Wildlife Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la Loi sur la conservation de la faune), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House.

Motion presented.

Mr. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, the most important factors affecting the future of wildlife and hunting in Manitoba are public attitudes. In recognition of this, a number of initiatives have been undertaken over the years. Some of these are intended to encourage safe use of firearms, respect for landowner rights and introducing youths to hunting in a safe and ethical manner.

A number of these initiatives have involved a great number of volunteers both within and outside of government from an educational perspective.

Other initiatives have involved the development of legislation to deal with a very small segment of the resource user which refuses to respect the rights of landowners, other hunters, nonconsumptive users and wildlife itself.

The Department of Natural Resources is proposing a number of tough new laws in an effort to curb unsafe hunting practices and trafficking in wild animals or wild animal parks. Laws aimed at curbing unsafe hunting practices are applicable to all hunters. Those who choose to disregard such fundamental laws of safety will pay stiffer penalties including loss of vehicles and other equipment used in the commission of the offence on conviction.

This proposed amendment to The Wildlife Act is necessary to provide for a greater deterrent to those who poach our wildlife or use dangerous or socially unacceptable hunting practices.

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In addition to these changes, the proposed amendment will designate wood bison as a protected wild animal. This is being recommended in order to provide protection to a recently introduced free‑ranging wood bison herd in Manitoba.

Section 13 of the act is being amended to increase the fine from $3,000 to up to $50,000 and imprisonment from three months to one year. The maximum penalty for dangerous hunting, night hunting and hunting while under the influence of substances is being increased to provide a real and substantive deterrent to such offenders. This is an integral and critical part of a department initiative to curtail poaching and activities commonly associated with such offences that jeopardize public safety. Most other Canadian jurisdictions have recently increased penalties for such offences and have set maximums in this range.

Section 27 of the act is being amended to prohibit the discharge of firearms half an hour after sunset and ending half an hour before sunrise the following day. This is an integral and critical part of a department initiative to curtail poaching and activities commonly associated with such offences that jeopardize public safety. Discharge of firearms either with or without lights at night is always potentially dangerous to humans, livestock and property and is a very common technique used by poachers.

Provision exists to make regulations to vary this time for hunting season or for such other purpose as may deem to be in the public interest. An example of this is the defence of property. Amendment of Section 78 is necessary to provide for the automatic forfeiture or all equipment seized upon conviction for violations involving vehicles being used for nightlighting, for big game animals when vehicle headlights or other lights powered or transported by a vehicle are the source of illumination, and dangerous hunting situations such as shooting at big game from in or on a vehicle when the vehicle has been or is being used to pursue the animal, and to transport any wild animal or parts thereof for trafficking purposes. This also is an integral and critical part of a departmental initiative to curtail poaching and the activities commonly associated with such offences that jeopardize public safety.

Automatic forfeiture of vehicles being used in the commission of serious and dangerous offences by poachers is needed to provide a realistic deterrent consistent with the nature of the offence and the profit associated with these illegal activities. Mandatory forfeiture also creates greater uniformity in the nature of the penalty being assessed. Forfeiture provisions are scaled on the basis of seriousness, danger to the public or whether injury was incurred or would have likely occurred as a result of the illegal act.

Wood bison are to be added to the Protected Species Division. Mr. Speaker, recently a small herd of wood bison was introduced to the wild for purposes of establishing a free‑ranging population in Manitoba. Without any form of protection under The Wildlife Act or any other act, there is an increasing risk and probability that some of these animals are going to be killed.

Listing this species under Division 6 of The Wildlife Act ensures that they will have full protection of the act and also indicates the significance of these animals in Manitoba on the basis of their limited numbers.

Since wood bison are also being raised in captivity, in privately owned herds in Manitoba, the proposed wording clearly distinguishes that wild animal status is not intended to apply to animals from private herds.

This also ensures that administrative and permitting functions under the act, example, possession and export permits, do not apply to wood bison that are kept in captivity and privately owned.

Regulations under the Criminal Code were amended in 1994, resulting in The Wildlife Act defining of a loaded firearm being more lenient and, therefore, in conflict with the Criminal Code, which is paramount. The amendment to the definition of a loaded firearm is mandatory to harmonize it with the federal definition. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In addition to those remarks, I would like to table the informational spreadsheets for both the last two bills. Thank you.

Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the honourable minister.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I move, seconded by the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid), that debate be adjourned.

Motion agreed to.

Bill 2‑‑The Prescription Drugs Cost Assistance Amendment and Pharmaceutical Amendment Act

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey), that Bill 2, The Prescription Drugs Cost Assistance Amendment and Pharmaceutical Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la Loi sur l'aide à l'achat de médicaments sur ordonnance et la Loi sur les pharmacies), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House.

Motion presented.

Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, The Drugs Cost Assistance Amendment and Pharmaceutical Amendment Act relate to the all‑parties agreement reached in the 1993 legislative session to develop a Pharmacare card system for Manitobans.

We have spent the past year developing a Drug Program Information Network, and it is called DPIN for short. DPIN consists of a computer network connecting approximately 250 pharmacies to a central data base.

DPIN will record all prescription drugs dispensed in all community pharmacies and some out‑patient hospital pharmacies. It will monitor each of these prescriptions against the patient's drug‑use history and report any adverse drug interactions, adverse therapeutic events, or fraudulent use.

Another benefit of DPIN is that it will process all Pharmacare claims and provide real time adjudication of Pharmacare reimbursement to patients and pharmacies. Mr. Speaker, that is a fancy way of saying that you are going to get your rebate instantly.

We are in the final series of the pilot project and will soon be able to announce the implementation date. The bill before us will enable the implementation of the Drug Program Information Network.

The objectives of DPIN are the following: to reduce adverse drug interactions and reactions; to reduce hospitalization as a result of adverse drug events; to promote better communication between pharmacists, prescribers and patients; to help prevent double‑doctoring and fraudulent use of drugs‑‑

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Double, double, oh, double‑doctoring, not double‑dipping.

Mr. McCrae: The honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) has double‑dipping on his mind these days.

Mr. Ashton: I did not try to run federally, Jim.

Mr. McCrae: Another objective of DPIN is to help measure drug and health outcomes.

The honourable member for Thompson says he did not try to seek a federal nomination. I suppose if he had he would have had about the same luck as I did.

Mr. Ashton: I would hope I would have had the same luck you did.

Mr. McCrae: Yes, exactly.

Another objective is to help measure drug and health outcomes, to streamline administrative procedures and to facilitate the implementation of other desirable improvements in drug insurance programs.

Mr. Speaker, this bill will enable us to achieve these objectives for the benefit of all Manitobans. With these amendments, Manitoba residents will be asked to present their personal health identification number, and there is an acronym for that too called PHIN, when filing a prescription. In conjunction with this, these amendments will ensure confidentiality of patient prescription drug information, a very important objective.

Access to this information is restricted to pharmacists and prescribers who require information to ensure an individual is receiving appropriate drug treatments. There are significant professional and financial penalties for improper disclosure.

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I would like to reiterate, in conclusion, that these new amendments will enable the implementation of an improved Pharmacare system that will result in significant benefits to Manitobans. These include financial benefits through instant rebates, health benefits through drug use history review and the benefits to taxpayers by helping to prevent fraud.

These amendments were developed in consultation with the Consumers' Association of Manitoba, the Manitoba Society of Seniors, the Manitoba Association for Rights and Liberties, the College of Physicians and Surgeons, the Manitoba Dental Association and the Manitoba Pharmaceutical Association. These are all very important agencies and organizations with which government should consult when putting together an important program like this.

I am very pleased to note that the concepts for this bill are supported by all these organizations, and all indications are that all the parties in this House are going to support this enabling bill because they, like me, want to see improvements in our Pharmacare system.

Mr. Speaker, with these brief remarks, I recommend this bill to the serious contemplation and support of all honourable members in this House.

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I move, seconded by the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), that debate be adjourned.

Motion agreed to.

Bill 3‑‑The Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation Amendment Act

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Driedger), that Bill 3, The Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la Loi sur la Fondation de traitement du cancer et de recherche en cancérologie), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House.

Motion presented.

Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased today to introduce Bill 3 for second reading. This bill will amend The Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation Act to accommodate the present‑day needs of the foundation in continuing its mission to provide Manitobans with the high quality of cancer treatment and research that we have enjoyed since the foundation was incorporated in 1962.

The major amendments contained in Bill 3 are the following. First will be the expansion of the membership of the foundation from 18 to 22 members. There is currently a designated member of the foundation representing the Health Sciences Centre. Bill 3 will add designated members representing St. Boniface General Hospital and the University of Manitoba to reflect the close association between the foundation and these institutions.

The bill is designed also to reflect the foundation's provincial mandate for cancer treatment and research. Bill 3 also requires that the Minister of Health appoint 10 persons as members of the foundation and that these 10 persons be appointed each from a separate geographical area of the province. There is a good reason for that; obviously cancer does not know any geographic bounds. There will be seven other persons appointed by the foundation who will be selected for the specific expertise needed. These appointments will be subject to the approval of the Lieutenant‑Governor‑in‑Council.

The bill deals with the election of the chairperson of the foundation by the members of the foundation. Currently, the chairperson is appointed by the Lieutenant‑Governor‑in‑Council. Bill 3 will permit the members of the foundation to elect a chairperson from amongst their own members. As well, the position of vice‑chairperson will be created.

There has been a restriction on borrowing for the Manitoba Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation. The current act sets a limit of $300,000 on borrowing by the foundation. This might have been appropriate in 1962 when the act was proclaimed. The foundation has embarked on a major capital redevelopment to enable it to continue to serve the needs of Manitobans with cancer. The borrowing cap will be removed in order to facilitate the capital expenditures that will be necessary and to give the foundation the same borrowing powers as other similar statutory organizations.

I should say that I had the privilege yesterday to visit the foundation and to be met by Dr. Brent Schacter, who is the director, and to be met by Mr. Arnold Portigal, the chairman of the board, and to be ushered through the facility and to see all of the activities that go on there, the very important activities. You can measure that importance by the number of my fellow Manitobans who were there to receive treatment or assessment or whatever they were there for.

I was quite impressed by the facility although it was extremely busy, and there is good reason for the foundation to be working on preparations for major capital redevelopment so that the foundation can continue to provide this vital service to Manitobans for many years to come. Any borrowing by the foundation will continue to require the approval of the Lieutenant‑Governor‑in‑Council and to be subject to the capital expenditure review process under The Health Services Insurance Act.

The bill before us deals with the authority to enact by‑laws. Bill 3 will give the foundation the power to make by‑laws, setting out rules of procedure, medical appointments and qualifications and so forth. All such by‑laws will require the approval of the Minister of Health. This is consistent with The Hospitals Act which requires ministerial approval of the by‑laws of the hospitals in this province. The other amendments set out in the bill are included to incorporate gender‑neutral language into the existing act.

I remember when I was Minister of Justice being responsible for Legislative Counsel, and it is the policy of our government that whenever legislation comes before us for amendment, we try to bring our legislation up to date with respect to gender‑neutral language. There was a time when the language built into the statutes of this country and this province were not necessarily‑‑indeed were not gender neutral, and it is time that we addressed that. We have been addressing that in an ongoing way.

So with all of those comments, Mr. Speaker, and the important initiatives that are contained within this bill, I recommend it to my honourable colleagues at second reading for their consideration and approval. Thank you.

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg), that debate be adjourned.

Motion agreed to.

House Business

Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on a further matter of House business, the Clerk has advised me that it is of significant and extreme importance that the committee to which the report of A. E. McKenzie Seeds Limited will be referred will be the Committee in Economic Development. I just wanted to confirm that for members of the House.

Mr. Speaker: That is very important, very important. Thank you, government House leader.

Mr. Ernst: I move, seconded by the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

In the Chamber will be the continuation of the Estimates of Health; in the committee room, Room 255, the Estimates of Rural Development, and upon completion of Rural Development, if it occurs this afternoon, we will start the Estimates of Industry, Trade and Tourism.

Mr. Speaker: I thank the honourable government House leader for that information.

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Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Rural Development; and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Health.

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COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

(Concurrent Sections)

RURAL DEVELOPMENT

Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Order, please. Good afternoon. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Rural Development.

When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 13.6 (c) on page 137 of the Estimates book, but we had asked for leave of the committee at that time to deal with 13.5 which had already been passed. I would ask the committee, is there leave to continue, or do we want to just move on to 13.6? Move on? Okay, it is 13.6.

Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I was wondering whether this is the time to respond, because when we closed yesterday's session, the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) had made some statements and posed a question, I suppose, that should be responded to, and I would like to know if I can continue with a response to that question.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: It is time. It is the honourable minister's time.

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, members of the committee, I would like to just put on record some of the achievements that have been accomplished by specifically government in northern Manitoba, because instead of dealing with separate departments, I think there have been many departments that have worked very co‑operatively for the improved quality of life in northern Manitoba.

With respect to Manitoba Energy and Mines, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I have to tell you that the Marketing branch of that department, in conjunction with the Department of Finance, have developed a new investment tax credit in processing allowances, which was announced in the 1994 budget on April 21.

The Mineral Exploration Incentive Program has been developed, and it is being administered through the Marketing branch. There are a total, I am told, of 31 projects and $17 million of exploration activities that have been approved under this program, which came into effect in March of 1992. Let us remember that up until this time very little was going on in terms of exploration for minerals in northern Manitoba.

Again, the Department of Energy and Mines, in conjunction with the Department of Finance, have developed the mining tax holiday for new mines and a mining tax exploration incentive in the North. These incentives, which have been put together by government, have led to the opening of a new gold mine in Lynn Lake and companies investigating the reopening of mines at Bissett. We know that activity now is ongoing at Bissett, and we know that there is a lot of interest and activity beginning in Snow Lake.

A lone agreement with Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Co. is providing financial assistance for the construction of environmental improvements. We have been through that with the plant in Flin Flon, which is in the member's back yard, if you like. That has been ongoing since 1991.

The member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie), when responding to issues that this government has embarked on, makes some very negative comments. However, those comments have been contradicted by even the media itself. I would like to quote the member for Flin Flon when he said about the budget, it is a dubious effort at best.

However, another story in the Reminder and stories in the Winnipeg Free Press and the Winnipeg Sun tell quite a different story than what was told to us by the member for Flin Flon. The headlines, for example, in the Free Press on April 22 indicate that our budget was a budget bonanza for business. The story goes on to read, I quote: "HUDSON'S BAY Mining & Smelting Co. vice‑president Dale Powell admits he was worried as he waited for the provincial government to hand down its latest budget.

"'So often when you're facing a new budget, you face it with a certain amount of trepidation,' Powell said in an telephone interview from Flin Flon. 'You think in terms of: What are they going to hit us with next?'

"But all his worrying was for naught in the case of Wednesday's provincial budget, Powell added, because the Filmon government delivered plums instead of bombs as far as the provincial mining industry is concerned."

So there we go, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. Papers today and people in northern Manitoba are aware of some of the very positive things that have been taking place in northern Manitoba as a result of this government's action.

The mining tax holiday which we talk about is certainly significant for northern Manitoba and the exploration incentive program that was proclaimed in February of 1992 certainly provide the kind of environment in northern Manitoba that allows for the reopening of business, if you like, in northern Manitoba for northern Manitobans.

Besides all of this, we have worked as a Department of Rural Development with our communities in northern Manitoba to ensure that in fact those communities, when they are impacted with mine closures, can face the world with some confidence. I think the example that I used yesterday of Lynn Lake, where we helped Lynn Lake with a very innovative project in terms of rebuilding their community and tearing down some of the vandalized homes that could not be salvaged, I think, was an example of how true partnerships work for the betterment of a community.

I visited Lynn Lake in the early part of 1994, and I can tell you that the community has taken on a very different look to it than it had when I visited more than a year ago. We had a bit of a reception that was cosponsored by the town and our own department for the people who worked on these projects to show them some recognition for what they had done for their community. I must say, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that everybody in that community was very pleased with the work that had been done, and those who worked on the project themselves found the experience to be worthwhile. Many of them, I might add, went on to seek further employment in the mine. As a matter of fact, a couple of the individuals came off shift to join us at the reception and then went to bed because their shifts were 12‑hour shifts.

We have worked with those communities, and it does not matter whether it is Lynn Lake, Snow Lake, Leaf Rapids, Thompson, each one of those communities in northern Manitoba has received a lot of attention by staff from my department and, indeed, by myself as minister and by other ministers as well.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Might I ask the committee, since the honourable minister seems to have moved to 13.5, was there leave to continue on 13.5 or are we dealing with 13.6? [agreed]

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if the minister had not decided to respond, I have to say that I was sorely provoked into responding to his response in response to my response.

The quote from the Flin Flon Reminder, where I talked about a dubious effort, was in specific reference to the fact that this government announced a number of quote, unquote, mining initiatives which will have zero impact on the provincial budget.

In other words, it ain't going to cost them a cent. The net impact of all the changes for the 1994‑95 year was identified in the budget document itself as zero. In other words, it is not going to cost them anything.

What I had said in my remarks to the Reminder was that this was a pre‑election budget. It was a public relations effort and that it certainly was not going to be this government in any event that had to pay the consequences of these kinds of tax incentives. Having said that, I have never said, did not say during that interview nor at any time in the past that the government should not use whatever measures it wants to stimulate the mining industry.

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I am not surprised that Dale Powell, who is the vice‑president with HBM&S, would say that this is plums. It may in the long run be very attractive for HBM&S and Inco. The bottom line is that there are now some 1,500, once 2,400, steel workers in Flin Flon for whom this budget is not only a sham but a disappointment because many of the issues that are important to them, including the longevity of the community, have not been addressed at all. That is the point.

I was very interested in the minister's response and he talked about his support for Lynn Lake. You know, it is interesting to hear the minister talk about the success of the new mining venture in Lynn Lake. Well, the member may not recall that I had to take up the charge for Cazador resources approximately a year and a half ago, after the government had left the proposal from Cazador sitting on the minister's desk for 11 months.

I got a call from the chief executive officer of Cazador resources, John Chapman, and he said, what is going on? He specifically referenced the incompetence of the then‑Deputy Minister of Energy and Mines, talked about the lack of, I guess, business acumen in terms of dealing with a company that wanted to do business in Manitoba. Eleven months from the time they submitted a proposal to the government to get people working in Lynn Lake, I had to ask, and I asked on several occasions, in no uncertain terms, for the government to respond, and finally we get a response to Cazador's proposal, and we finally get some action.

If that is the kind of diligence this minister wants to talk about from himself and his colleagues, then I think it is time for a change. So I do not accept any of this.

An Honourable Member: Call an election.

Mr. Storie: My colleague for St. Boniface says, call an election, and that might not be a bad idea.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I want to put on the record as well that I have asked for approximately 14 times‑‑

An Honourable Member: Careful, Jerry. Oh, you have got a job, I am sorry.

Mr. Storie: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I have a job, and I will have a job.

An Honourable Member: You are ready for an election, you have got a job.

Mr. Storie: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we have that established, and it is a job that I want to do.

The bottom line is I have asked probably half a dozen times in this committee for the minister to tell me what his department has done. He has come back and said, well, we did this in the budget, and the Energy and Mines department has done this and this and this.

The fact is there has been virtually no support from this department at all, or from this minister. There has not even been that much support of rhetoric, unless he was pushed. So I am going to give up my effort to get an answer from the minister about what specifically they have done.

I do have some other questions with respect to the REDI program that I want to raise, and again I am afraid, Mr. Minister, that when I ask those questions, we are going to get the same kind of response we have got in response to these questions. That is more rhetoric, no definitive answers, and we will simply confirm that the government is more interested in talking about rural development than actually doing anything.

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I can understand why the member for Flin Flon is anxious for an election, personally. He already has secured employment so he is anxious to get on with other things.

I do not blame him for abandoning that ship that he is a part of right now. He has certainly looked after his own personal interests, and you know I congratulate him for that. However, I am not so sure that his colleagues are quite as anxious as he is.

An Honourable Member: Well, after the next election, you will not have a job, so that will be different.

Mr. Derkach: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we shall wait and see.

I would like to table for today, but before I table, I would like to put on record some of the programs that Rural Development has been involved in, in supporting northern communities.

The member makes a comment that it was he who took action on Cazador mines in Lynn Lake, but he makes too much of his own power in terms of government, and perhaps he should consider his own position.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the Mining Community Reserve Fund in Lynn Lake has received a total of $750,800 from the Department of Rural Development.

Provincial government funding to northern communities under the Local Government Support Services branch‑‑in 1994‑95 the Estimate is $906,125 for the communities of Churchill, Consol, Flin Flon, Gillam, Grand Rapids, Leaf Rapids, Lynn Lake, Mystery Lake, Snow Lake, The Pas, Thompson and for the Northern Affairs communities as well.

Provincial government funding to northern communities under the Local Government Support Services area, again, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the grants in lieu of taxes, amount significantly for northern communities. We have something like $1,094,705 in total and that is certainly not insignificant.

Under the Transit Grants, Flin Flon will receive $49,980 in the 1994‑95 year. Thompson will receive $128,207. The mobility disadvantaged grants, again, we have significant contributions there which total $120,000, I believe. Municipal Support Grants, again, to those same communities. We have a list of communities, a list of grants, and just by way of example the LGD of Churchill, the total is $180,590; the LGD of Consol is $2,656; Flin Flon $291,848; Gillam $86,209; Grand Rapids $3,961; Leaf Rapids $44,874; Lynn Lake $25,421; Mystery Lake $19,720; Snow Lake $18,222; The Pas $204,318; Thompson $604,052.

The list goes on. There are police grants that go to northern communities. The VLT support grant that goes to these northern communities, again, is distributed from the Department of Rural Development. From the LynnGold resources trust account, Lynn Lake has received a total of $180,000 since our government has been in office. So, therefore, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this is an indication of the support that this government and this department has given to northern communities.

So let not the member from Flin Flon in any way indicate that there has not been support for northern Manitoba.

Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if I may refer and stay with this 13.5 (c) and ask whether the Rural Economic Development officers, the positions were put out in a newspaper last year, I believe, last summer for seven [interjection] We can either deal with it now or deal with it at the Minister's Salary.

Mr. Derkach: I can deal with it now.

Mr. Clif Evans: Can the minister tell me the process that his department went through and the rationale of I believe it was seven Rural Economic Development officers to be hired throughout the province. Can he just indicate to us why those seven and what their positions were going to be?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member is right. Those were economic development officers that we were hiring for the department. We had advertised I believe it was last fall, if I am not mistaken, or late last summer for these positions.

We had received a number of applications. Those were screened through the normal process. Out of the ones that we wanted to hire I believe there were two successful candidates. One is in process at the present time, and we will probably be going back to competition for the remaining positions that are currently vacant.

Mr. Clif Evans: Any one of the two positions that have already been filled, is one of them at all for the Thompson area?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member should know that we offered a position in northern Manitoba to a candidate who had applied, and the candidate withdrew after we had made the offer for that position. So we do not have anybody for the Thompson one right now. That is going to be one that will be advertised and filled down the road.

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Mr. Clif Evans: There are still four out of the seven basically that have not been filled, Thompson being one of them. What others?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, these positions are for the department as a whole, but we will be locating them in our existing offices around the province. We have the regional district offices that are located throughout the province, and that is where we will want our staff to be working out of. If there are projects that are of a large magnitude, we may require the services of more than one officer to put the package together. In some cases they will be mobile, but by and large their home base will be the local regional offices throughout the province.

Mr. Clif Evans: In seeing the importance through the minister's statement and the way that rural development seems to be going, you would think that these positions could have been filled. Is there a problem with candidates? Is there a problem with the job description that candidates do not fulfill?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I guess it is fair to say that we went through the competition as you normally would, and out of the number of people who had applied for the positions there were some who were offered jobs. We were looking for specific skill sets for those jobs. These are very important jobs in these communities, and we want to make sure that the people who we are going to hire will have the necessary set of skills to deliver those kinds of programs.

It was, I guess, determined by the hiring process that the three candidates were offered positions. One declined, so therefore that left us with a vacancy. Those will be readvertised and we will be refilling them.

Mr. Clif Evans: With reference back to the Thompson area position, you are saying then there was no offer at all to anybody for the‑‑there was one offer, I am sorry. I want to stand corrected on that. Of course the refusal by the applicant came in. Who does the interviewing and the hiring in your department?

Mr. Derkach: The process that we followed was one where we did a prescreening of the candidates. There were, I believe, over 300 applicants at the time. Then there was a selection committee struck to deal with further screening. And then there was a final selection committee put together which included the Civil Service Commission and staff from the Department of Rural Development for the final screening.

Mr. Clif Evans: Can the minister tell me, besides the one candidate that the job was offered to, how many applicants were there for the Thompson positions specifically?

Mr. Derkach: The applicants did not state, in most cases, where they wanted to be located. It was through the interview process that the interview committee asked the question as to location that the candidates may choose or whether they would be prepared to move to locations around the province.

Mr. Clif Evans: I do not recall the exact words of my question, but I do not think the minister really answered what I did ask. Were there people from Thompson who applied for these positions, and were these people considered and interviewed prior to the offer to the one candidate from Thompson specifically?

If you are looking for someone for this type of position and, as you say, their positions could be throughout Manitoba, you would think that the department would want to hire someone from within a specific area if there was such a need for an officer in that area?

Mr. Derkach: I do not know how many people there were from Thompson who applied for the position. I could not tell you that because I never did see the list. Therefore, I would not know how many applied from Thompson, but we could certainly find that out.

There were people who had northern experience who had applied for positions as well. As a matter of fact, the person who was offered the position was not from Thompson presently, but had worked in the northern part of the province and so was familiar with northern Manitoba.

Location is not the only factor that is taken into account in terms of where you come from. There were other factors that were considered in screening the candidates. The criteria were applied equally to all candidates.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Deputy Chair, the minister indicated that there were quite a few hundred total applicants for the seven positions.

Mr. Derkach: I indicated in my previous response that there were over 300 applicants.

Mr. Clif Evans: In the final screening process then and before the interviews as such, how many candidates were you down to for seven positions?

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Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am told that in the end the final number, if you like, of people who were interviewed was around 15 or 16. I do not have that specific information here, but it was in that range. I could certainly get that for the member.

Mr. Clif Evans: I would like to also put that on record that I would certainly appreciate that list of the candidates.

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I did not say in my response that I would provide the names of the candidates who were interviewed in the final analysis. I would provide the number of candidates that were interviewed.

Mr. Clif Evans: I guess that is through confidentiality of a person. Okay.

I would just like to say that it has been almost a year to fill these positions‑‑over 300 candidates originally. I wonder what the minister's department is looking for in people to hire seven people, seven officers for a province out of 300 applicants, and you can only fill two of the positions. If it is such an important future position for this province and this department, let us get on with it.

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, as was indicated, there were about 16 people who were interviewed in the final screening or the final process. Several of them were offered positions. A number of them declined for one reason or another.

Yes, I was probably as disappointed as the member that we could not fill the seven positions from the list that we had. Nevertheless, we are trying to ensure that the people we hire for those positions have the skill set that is required to do a job in that area. Simply just throwing anyone into a position like that would be unfair, I think, to the individual and to the department, especially when the task is that specific.

However, I am confident that there are people out there who have the right skill set, and we will be readvertising this particular job for filling the remaining four or five positions that we have vacant at this time.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, well, I certainly hope that the criteria for the position are so far out and far fetched that you are going to be hunting for these five people from now until certain parts of the earth freeze over. [interjection] Certain ones that will not melt. Sorry, Reverend.

I would just like to continue by saying that I am certainly hopeful and I will be watching the minister's department with this and getting in touch with his people to see just who is applying and how the process is going. I would like to see these positions filled as quickly as possible.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We are now dealing with 6.(c) Sewer and Water for $2,000,000‑‑pass.

6.(d) Canada‑Manitoba Partnership Agreement on Municipal Water Infrastructure $3,520,000.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I just want to make comment on this section that I was very pleased, I believe it was last month, sitting in and being a part of the official announcement of Arborg receiving funds through this program. Now they are able to proceed with some of their infrastructure work and economic development, and I am pleased to see the Speaker here also.

I would just say that I know the community of Arborg is very, very pleased, and, hopefully, that we can with this program, as I think I have mentioned before, that we can perhaps deal with this department or this part of the department. Ashern is having an enormous amount of trouble with their drinking water; Fisher Branch is, and Riverton. So I would like to put that on record that those three communities I will be contacting to work at contacting your department. I am also informed that Plumas is in dire straits with their water, and I will certainly support that project if possible‑‑but, again, just for the record.

An Honourable Member: I am short of water. You going to support me too?

Mr. Clif Evans: Well, sure, if you are going to drink it. Of course.

But, anyhow, the Riverton area and the Fisher Branch area and the Ashern area are having a tremendous amount of problems with their water, and I would certainly like to encourage this minister and this department to work alongside of those communities if they so wish to approach the government for the provincial share of projects that they may have.

Mr. Bob Rose (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, just a couple of questions on infrastructure‑‑

An Honourable Member: Are you short of water?

Mr. Rose: Well, I have a glassful here, so I am all right for a moment.

Like the member for the Interlake, we in Turtle Mountain certainly appreciated the announcements that were made a few weeks ago with the initial $20 million or $19 million, I think it was, of the proposed $60 million project. Some of the questions that have been asked of me since then, it was quite noticeable that the ones that were approved were relatively small projects in the terms of $10,000, $12,000, $15,000, $20,000.

Some of the jurisdictions, of course, have got applications in for much larger projects. Having seen the results of the first initial approval, their questions to me were, are our projects too high, have we put in a project that because of its size will not receive approval?

I would ask if there is any basis to that kind of a conclusion, if some of the local jurisdictions should be looking at something a little less ambitious in order to obtain approval?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think the question is related to the federal‑provincial infrastructure program that we signed last month with the federal government and the municipalities.

Yes, to answer that question specifically, there are communities that are coming in with very large projects. I will give you the example of Flin Flon. It came in with a project for $21 million. Now that is a sizable chunk of the infrastructure program, and it is very difficult to try and accommodate a project of that size when the infrastructure program is only $204 million in total.

There are other communities, as well, who have come in with very large projects. Again, if you try to accommodate all those huge projects under the infrastructure program, very quickly you would have the money eaten up by a few communities. So the committee that has been put together, made up of municipal and the MAUM and UMM group, are looking at how they can regionally distribute the money so that every community in Manitoba will have some benefit from the program.

That is a very difficult task because then it makes it very hard to address those large projects. I think they have instructed the secretariat to go back to communities and to give them some kind of a fair indication of what is realistic in terms of the infrastructure program and see whether or not a community can perhaps look at the priorities that have been submitted and give some indication as to what they would choose as a project that might fit under the program in terms of regional distribution.

So the challenges are out there, but we are allowing the process to continue under the advisory committee, and they are working very hard. They are meeting almost weekly. Certainly, we have allowed them to conduct their duties and to come forward with the projects, and we accept their recommendations.

Mr. Rose: Part of the same announcement‑‑it was the announcement of bringing natural gas to many communities in Turtle Mountain as well as other constituencies. One of the questions that has been raised with me, and perhaps this is an unfair question for you, but the requirement of 60 percent of both residential and business before Centra will come to the community, and the question has been posed to me: Is that 60 percent of the actual usage, or is it 60 percent of the actual residence? In other words, if there are 100 homes, do 60 of them have to sign up, or is it 60 percent of the total quantity of energy required?

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Mr. Derkach: I thank the member for that question. That is one that has come to us on several occasions. The number of sign‑ups required is 60 percent of the residential users and 60 percent by volume of the commercial users. So it is a split in terms of arriving at something that will give the green light to the project.

An Honourable Member: Thank you.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Shall the item pass? The item is accordingly passed.

6.(e) Drought Proofing $299,700.

Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface): There is a difference of about $245,000, and it says: "The decrease reflects the completion of projects . . . . The decreased funding in this program was re‑allocated to the Water Development." Where does this amount show in the Estimates?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it is shown in item (b) where last year we had $400,000; this year that has been increased to $644,400.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Shall the item pass? The item is accordingly passed.

6.(f) Conservation Districts $1,897,800‑‑pass.

6.(g) Downtown Revitalization $333,000.

Mr. Clif Evans: Just a comment on the drop of $250,000. Can the minister just indicate what effect it had in previous times? Downtown Revitalization, is that for rural communities? What is that? Is that for the city of Winnipeg?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the Downtown Revitalization program was targeted at two communities: Thompson and Brandon. It was a five‑year agreement. The difference that the member points to is a result of an extension of the agreement by one year.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Shall the item pass? The item is accordingly passed.

Resolution 13.6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $8,838,900 for Rural Development, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1995.

We will now move on to Lotteries Funded Appropriations, 7. Rural Economic Programs (a) Grow Bonds Program (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $345,400.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, just a few comments on the REDI program. I am sure we are all aware and it has been debated for quite a while now that most of this funding, of course, comes from VLT revenues. As we see this year, the total expenditure for REDI program has gone up.

Just a few comments‑‑and these are comments that I think not only myself but other members get from their communities‑‑the fact that the money basically has come from rural areas, and originally it was supposed to stay in rural areas. But some of the comments when I would mention the REDI program to them were the difficulty to access the program and the criteria that were part and parcel of applying for whether it be for infrastructure program, for a feasibility study, and I am just wondering how the minister is going to deal with this. I would like to know, basically, since the REDI program has been in force, can he tell me how many total staff that the department has in the REDI program‑‑total staff?

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. At this time we are dealing with the Grow Bonds Program. If the honourable member looks, he will see that (b) is Rural Economic Development, which is the REDI program.

Mr. Clif Evans: It is all basically under 13.7, is it not?

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: No, we are dealing with 13.7 (a), which is Grow Bonds. We are dealing with one line at a time, and we are dealing with‑‑right now it is Salaries and Employee Benefits on the Grow Bonds. The line the honourable member wants to ask those questions on is in (b) Rural Economic Development Initiatives on the (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits, which is one down. At this time we are dealing with the Grow Bonds side.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, could the minister then provide me with the total number of staff within the Grow Bonds Program?

Mr. Derkach: There are seven staff presently in the Grow Bonds office.

Mr. Clif Evans: The Other Expenditures has dropped a bit. Can the minister explain? It is not a great drop, but the reason for that amount?

Mr. Derkach: As the member knows, the Grow Bonds Program is a new program, and last year was our first year of operations under the Grow Bonds Program. Therefore, our estimates on expenditures were, I guess, something that we had no historical experience on. Therefore, we had to put numbers in which we thought would reflect the actual expenditures that we would incur.

This year when we went throughout the Estimates of Expenditure, we were able to then look at how we could better operate our offices, and in some areas the member will note that there are decreases throughout, whether it is from the salaries right down to other operating expenditures. There is one area perhaps that he sees a significant decrease, and that is in the grants. Those are grants to the round tables. We are estimating that this year we will not have as many applications as we did last year because we now have over a hundred municipalities that are participating in round tables. So we do not feel that there is going to be as much activity in that area as there has been in the past year.

I think what we are trying to do is come up with an estimate here that is realistic, and so that is why we are showing somewhat of a decrease in the bottom line.

Mr. Clif Evans: Could the minister tell us or table, preferably table, the projects to date that the Grow Bonds issues have been involved in, and can he indicate what future the Grow Bonds issue in the province and areas has?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this is a program that I am extremely proud of and one that I could speak on for hours and hours, I guess, because it has been such a positive experience for all of Manitoba. Let me say that when we started the Grow Bonds Program there was a lot of skepticism about it, especially from the ranks of the opposition who did not view that program very positively, and kept coming back to us and saying, well, there is no activity in the program because of the criteria and because you are so slow at adopting the program.

Well, that was not the case at all. I know that the opposition would have probably liked us to move ahead with many, many more projects, but ones that perhaps needed to have some serious review in terms of their ability to meet the criteria that were established under Grow Bonds. We had some growing pains in the beginning, and I have said from the very time that I took over the portfolio that we had to go through a process of growing pains because there was not a program, except the one in Saskatchewan, that we could model our program after. We made some changes to our program so that we as a government would not be buying the businesses, so that we would not be guaranteeing the total amount that would be invested in a business.

There had to be some commitment from the entrepreneur, there had to be some commitment from the community, if you like, to make sure that this was a viable project. Therefore, there were many projects that came forward that did not have a business plan, that did not really give any market information, and all of that kind of situation occurred in the first months of the program. We got over that.

We went out to the communities; we marketed the program aggressively; we held town hall meetings around the province to ensure that municipalities understood the program, that communities understood the program, and that they understood the criteria that were attached to the program. What we found was that as communities became more and more aware of the program, they came back with applications that were done much more completely. There was less need for a lot of sending back and forth and revising the applications themselves, and we found that, lo and behold, we were able to start approving projects much more quickly.

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Something else that happened was that the communities took hold of the program. They understood it well, and then they began to run with it. They would, in many instances, encourage manufacturers, small‑business people, businesses in communities who could use Grow Bonds to expand and perhaps develop new businesses. They encouraged this kind of activity, and we have seen a tremendous number of applications come forward.

We today have 11 Grow Bonds that are active in the province. Our most recent was announced yesterday. It was a $185,000 Grow Bond, and I will pass the news release around, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if I may, for the members of the committee to look at, because this is an example of a tiny business which started in the home, right in the kitchen, and grew from there to what we have today is a milling and baking company. The Grow Bond that we announced yesterday was for $185,000, and before we left the meeting yesterday, they sold $42,000 of Grow Bonds.

That is just an example of how quickly these Grow Bonds are selling. As a matter of fact, I just received word now that as of 2:30 today this Grow Bond has sold $101,000. It does not match the success that we had with one in Winkler, where we had a Grow Bond for $240,000, and it sold out in three hours.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think it does point to the tremendous success of this program. It does show that in fact there is a lot of money in local communities which can be invested in local projects, projects that make sense.

This morning we met with people from the banking, financial institutions, and they told us that they are very high on Grow Bonds. They think that Grow Bonds is the kind of program that is really going to put rural Manitoba on its feet and allow for businesses to operate very effectively and efficiently in the rural part of our province.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson, to date, we have issued Grow Bonds in the amount of $4,519,600. The total investment, as a result of the Grow Bonds, has come to over $14 million, almost $15 million, and the job creation as a result of this is up to 257 new jobs in rural Manitoba.

We have currently under review 11 projects, projects that I am sure will be coming forward for approval in the next little while. I am sorry, I am wrong. There are 12 active files in the due diligence process, and, once again, that amounts to $8.7 million of Grow Bonds activity.

Manitoba is really starting to take up the issue of Grow Bonds, and I am sure that in the next little while we will see this program expanded considerably.

Mr. Clif Evans: The minister also added the fact there are 257 new jobs. These jobs, are they short term in expansion of a business, or are they long term? Are they permanent? Do we know that for sure and exactly where they are?

Mr. Derkach: I thank the member for that question because jobs are certainly an important aspect in rural Manitoba, especially in small communities.

In a small community, two or three jobs mean as much to that community as 100 or 500 jobs in a city like Brandon or Winnipeg, and so the impact is very significant in small communities.

The jobs that I am speaking about, the 257 jobs, are all permanent jobs. They are long‑term jobs, and they are jobs that did not exist in those communities before, whether we talk about a corporation like Rimer‑Alco in Morden, which just created 16 new jobs; or somebody like the Keystone Seed Coaters in Rivers, which will be creating six additional new jobs; or Sterling Press in Selkirk, which has created 18‑plus new jobs‑‑I understand that they are over the 18 jobs already; the tire recycling corporation in Winkler at 25 jobs.

Woodstone Foods, for example, in Portage said to us that they would be creating 20 new jobs, but I understand they have surpassed that 20 already. So there are more than 257 jobs that have been created in rural Manitoba.

Our statistics are simply those that have been based on the applications that have come forward.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister indicated that there were 12 new applications for Grow Bonds. Can the minister tell me whether the dehyd operation in Arborg is part of these new applications for Grow Bonds?

Mr. Derkach: Yes, as a matter of fact, we have been working with the community of Arborg now for some time. Arborg has a very active community. They are doing some very innovative things, and they have applied not only for a dehyd plant, but as the member knows, they have applied for more than one project, and the dehyd plant is one of those projects that is being considered. Arborg is certainly setting the pace for many other communities in rural Manitoba in terms of their interest and activity in attracting industry to their community.

As a matter of fact, I could say to the member that he knows of the former cheese plant in Arborg being closed for‑‑it never did operate from the time it opened, and today we see some very positive results in terms of getting that facility back in operation and seeing a company move into it that will potentially employ a good number of people in that area.

Mr. Clif Evans: Can the minister indicate the amount of the Grow Bond for the dehyd plant, or is that still being negotiated?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I do not think it would be fair to speculate on what the end result of that Grow Bond might be because the application is still in a fairly preliminary stage, and as the application moves through the process, that number may shift up and down somewhat. So I would be hesitant to indicate specifically on the amount that that Grow Bond is for at this time.

Mr. Clif Evans: Would the operation then of the dehyd plant or the facility having a go‑ahead and being built and into production‑‑how much effect does the dehyd plant have on the area receiving the natural gas that they had so diligently worked for the last five years? What further criteria must be met by the dehyd operation, by the community, to be able to extend the natural gas line to the area?

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Mr. Derkach: As the member knows, under the criteria that were established for extension of natural gas services to rural communities, Arborg did not qualify. This was a criteria that was established through the Public Utilities Board and Centra Gas, and Arborg, although they were close, did not come up to meet the criteria. If in fact the dehyd plant were to make a commitment to the community to locate there, I would be very confident that Arborg would then qualify under the criteria that have been established.

The community has been in touch with Centra Gas. They have also been in touch with our department, and we have had some very open communication with Mr. Gislason, with the mayor, Mr. Kindzierski, of the community, and they understand where the process is at.

(Mr. Bob Rose, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair)

They are not negative about it. They are certainly working very hard to get some commitment from the dehyd plant, which would certainly put them over the top in terms of making it viable for them to have natural gas into their community.

Mr. Clif Evans: Along with the criteria that has been put out, the 60 percent of the area residents, commercial and residential, along with the $300 deposit, along with the commitment by the dehyd plant and its partners to operate and build there, then the minister is saying that once that comes into play that his department and this government will totally commit themselves to expanding the natural gas to the area?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, the member knows that I would personally like to see natural gas extended to every community in rural Manitoba if that were possible. There is no community that we would prevent from getting natural gas if they met the criteria because I think that is the key. If you can meet the criteria, then I do not think it is a question of not getting the gas. I think you would see me out there leading the charge to ensure that that community did receive the service.

Mr. Clif Evans: I just wish I would have received those types of comments about five years ago, even though the minister was not there then, but from his government who sat‑‑and I say sat‑‑on their hands with this project. This is not only coming from myself, this is coming from all the proponents in that area, all the mayors and the reeves and all the people that were working at this right from the beginning, five years ago. You know, finally after all the hard work and the lobbying and that, they are getting some response, but five years and the comments out there were, at least why did you not say one way or the other what we needed to do.

I questioned the minister last year in Estimates. He indicated to me, and it is on record, that he wanted to see a survey done [interjection] That is right, perhaps. When I questioned the people in my area, they knew nothing about it, about a survey and request of a survey. There is also a letter on record to the minister indicating that. But I am pleased, and I want to see the potential from this government and from the Department of Rural Development that the criteria is met and the dehyd operation satisfactorily proceeds, that in fact the area does get its natural gas.

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, the reality is that, you know, Arborg did not have, they still do not have, a dehyd plant today. They did not have one five years ago, and I would venture to say that five years ago they were further from meeting the criteria to have natural gas extended to their community than they are today. I stand by what I said. The surveys had to be done. The feasibility had to be conducted in order to get to this stage, and they were told that. The mayor knew that very well. As a matter of fact the mayor and I have been working together very co‑operatively since I came into this department, and also the community as a whole.

I need to also remind the member that back in 1981 the government of the day did study the issue for two years, and what was the result? There was not a positive result of any kind. So I have to tell the member that this is the government that has moved ahead with the extension of natural gas services to rural Manitoba. This is the government that is working actively with the communities like Arborg and others to make sure that rural Manitoba is going to have every possible opportunity for economic activity and economic viability and indeed will be able to attract back to their communities some of our youth and sustain those communities for a long time.

The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Rose): 7.(a) Grow Bonds Program (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $345,400.

Mr. Gaudry: You were having problems with the one in Teulon where the interest was delayed in being paid. Has that finally been resolved and now‑‑

Mr. Derkach: Yes, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, every time we issue a Grow Bond in rural Manitoba, what we do is we set aside some money for the event that a Grow Bond goes bad or the project goes bad on us or fails or for some reason we have to turn back the money to the investors. To date, we are going along quite well. There has not been a case of a bankruptcy or one that has failed to date, but down the road I am sure that that is a very, very good possibility knowing how businesses run, not only in Manitoba but throughout Canada and North America.

In Teulon, the situation was not one where there was a problem with the company going bankrupt. It needed to be restructured. It has been restructured. More money has been put in from the private entrepreneur, the proponents or the new owners. There was a delay in the interest payments that were being made. Our staff got on that immediately, the Grow Bond staff, and that was corrected and the payments were made then. My understanding is that the payments are up to date at this time, but there was a bit of a flutter there for a little while where there was some uncertainty. That has corrected itself, and my understanding is that the project is up and running successfully.

Mr. Gaudry: On one point you mention that there was going to be 500 jobs created in rural Manitoba in one of your press releases here last November. Now you are up to 257. When do you think‑‑well, you say 257, we have not seen the statistics. When do you think you are going to reach that 500 jobs in rural Manitoba?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I think my comments were in relation to not only Grow Bonds but REDI as well, and we have surpassed that, I might add. We have 257 jobs that have been created in the Grow Bond area. Besides that, in REDI we have more than 500 jobs already. Besides the 500 jobs we have also in addition to that, through Partners with Youth and the Green Team programs we have generated 1,300 part‑time positions for young people in Manitoba, and we are anticipating an additional 1,000 positions in '94‑95. So there has been a lot of activity and some good job creation as a result of both the Grow Bonds Program and the REDI program, and I am hoping we can double that in the next year through Grow Bonds and REDI. That is a hope. That is certainly something we will strive towards.

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Mr. Gaudry: The member for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans) just talked about McDonald jobs. I did not know what he was talking about, but I know several times in the House the government has talked about the NDP green signs that they had years back when they were in government. I was wondering, are they using any of these signs at this time?

Mr. Derkach: No, we do not use any of those signs. You know, a student who needs to make some money for university or for tuition or whatever it might be also needs some meaningful employment, and the jobs that were created under the program with the green signs were in that day and age seen as appropriate by the government of the day. We have a different view of that. We want our jobs to be meaningful ones, ones that leave some lasting benefit to the community or to the area in which the students work.

The Green Team, as an example, is one where we embark on projects where there is going to be a lasting benefit to an area or a community, and that is why we have extended the Green Team to the home town. The home town component has been added to the Green Team because now communities, like municipalities and towns and villages, can hire students on a cost‑share basis to improve the quality of their infrastructure in their communities, to make their communities more attractive for tourism and for people who visit those communities.

I think the lasting benefit for our parks has been one where we today can drive through our parks and be very proud of them. I very much enjoy going to a park and seeing students work and seeing our REDI Green Team at work in our parks. I compared that to a program in Saskatchewan where they also have students working in their parks, and I would have to say that tourists who come through our parks and see these students in their REDI Green Team T‑shirts and hats certainly recognize that this is a program for youth and employment.

Everyone that you talk to supports youth employment, especially employment in the summer when the students are outdoors and doing a little bit of physical work, doing some hosting in our parks, getting together with the public. It is a learning experience for them, but it is also something that is of benefit to us as a province in promoting our province, our parks in our province, and also our home town communities.

(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)

Mr. Gaudry: Yes, you mention that you have the 1,300 jobs, and those 1,300 will be just part‑time jobs for the students for this year. You are saying that you have surpassed the 500 in the REDI and your 257. How many of those jobs are full‑time jobs that will last for a number of years‑‑[interjection]

Mr. Derkach: That is a good question, and the member for the Interlake says Tory time jobs‑‑

Point of Order

Mr. Clif Evans: I did not say Tory jobs, I said jobs at least until retirement.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable member does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts.

* * *

Mr. Derkach: I acknowledge the member's correction of that, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, but I would like to say that these are full‑time jobs. They are permanent jobs. When you look at corporations like Rimer‑Alco, they are in Manitoba for the long term. When you look at the tire‑recycling corporation in Winkler, those are not temporary positions. That is an industry that we need in Manitoba to recycle the mountains of tires that need to be recycled throughout our province.

Woodstone Foods, as an example, has been working in Manitoba not for one or two years; they have been here since, I believe, 1975 and have created some very innovative products from peas especially. I think we will see them around for a long time. So those are permanent jobs that require a fairly high level of skill, and that is the kind of jobs that we want in Manitoba.

Now, they say a job is a job is a job.

An Honourable Member: A Tory is a Tory is a Tory.

Mr. Derkach: No comment to that.

We want to ensure that whatever jobs we create in Manitoba, they are going to be for the long term, and whether it is under REDI or whether it is under Grow Bonds, we are going to make every effort to ensure that those jobs are created for the long term, that they are going to be lasting and that they are going to provide local people from these communities with every opportunity to work and live in those rural communities.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I have lost my thought on that previous comment.

With these programs, the Hometown program component that was added to The Green Team, has the department and the government made all the communities that are able to‑‑

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable member is moving into REDI. Is the committee ready to pass the Grow Bonds issue line?

An Honourable Member: Sure.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Line (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $345,400‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $476,500‑‑pass.

We will now move into (b) Rural Economic Development Initiatives (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $173,000‑‑

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I will leave the other question for later, that I was going to start on Grow Bonds. Can the minister indicate how many employees he has within the REDI program besides the seven in the Grow Bonds? How many people do we employ in that department?

Mr. Derkach: Three full‑time staff in the REDI program.

Mr. Clif Evans: Three full‑time in the REDI program‑‑you are talking program, besides the bonds program, of upwards of $11 million. Is the minister indicating that three full‑time people are taking care of an $11‑million slice of the pie‑‑pretty worked staff.

Mr. Derkach: Yes, there are only three permanent staff in the REDI program. I am very proud of them. They also utilize the Communities Economic Development officers who are in rural Manitoba at the present time, are planners in rural Manitoba and have also been very active in this whole area in providing information to our REDI office.

It has been a very co‑operative program, where we do not simply rely on the three staff in the office. Indeed our total department is one that works in areas which perhaps might be deemed to be REDI, but in the local offices around the province, you will find oftentimes that the planners will be taking information that they can pass on to the REDI office. I think that is what we need more of. That allows us to keep our staff at a fairly minimum level and deliver the money to the programs that the money was supposed to be delivered to.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the REDI program‑‑and I guess we can broadly discuss anything under the REDI, even though we are on Salaries and Employee Benefits.

Can the minister just help me with this one and his department staff? Last year the R.M. of Siglunes received upwards of $47,000 for a weigh scale in their community of Ashern. Can the minister or his staff table for me or provide me with an updated application list of any applications for any part of the REDI program from the Interlake constituency? I am aware of some. I am not aware of them all. Would that be possible?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would have to tell the member that we would be happy to provide him with a list of those projects that have been approved or are being announced. In terms of information on projects that are still in the process, that would be very difficult because there has to be some confidentiality between the proponent of a project and the officers who are working on it. Therefore, that would not be appropriate for us to publish or to sort of distribute that information to anyone, for that matter, because I think there has to be some confidentiality in some of these cases when a proponent may not want to publicize that they are in fact applying for consideration under the REDI program or the Grow Bonds Program.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, can the minister then supply us with a list, through the program, of applications that have been approved and the amounts of funding that have gone through that? Can he provide us with that?

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Mr. Derkach: Just a clarification, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, does the member want it just for his area or does he want it for the province?

Mr. Clif Evans: Both.

Mr. Derkach: Could I ask the member if he would be satisfied if I provided him with the list of approved projects for the province? Then he can pick out the ones that are in his constituency, because I am not sure. I might miss one if I try to go through his constituency.

Mr. Clif Evans: Oh, okay.

Mr. Derkach: Thank you.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Just on that list, can the minister tell us, can he indicate today where the majority of the applications come from or if there is a breakdown available? I guess we could get that from the list when he presents it to the member for the Interlake, but whether we could get an indication where the most interest for the program is.

What I am looking for is whether or not there might be a pattern, if there is interest in the North, for example, or in the Interlake area, or which part of the province has shown the greatest interest and what percentage of the applications are approved or rejected, not necessarily by area, but I guess I am trying to find out whether there are a lot of applications that have come in that are not approved.

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member asked a question that is fairly difficult to answer in terms of specifics. In a general sense, I would have to say that our applications have been fairly broadly spread throughout the province. If you were to dot the province with projects that have been approved, it seems to me that we have a fairly good distribution throughout the province. There have been a good number that have come from the North as well.

I guess one area that we are finding that probably has a bit of deficiency in terms of the number of projects that come forward and are approved and accepted is the southwest part of the province, and certainly we need to spend a little more time with some of those communities.

The communities throughout the province are fairly active and fairly knowledgeable about the program, and just to prove that, we have now over 385 applications that have been received throughout Manitoba. Of those, 114 projects have been approved or are presently being approved, recommended for approval. Over 40 projects are under review at the present time by the office. Right now we have 60 projects that are being developed by applicants after that first concept approval stage. That shows you that there is a fairly high level of activity out there with regard to the REDI program itself.

The criteria that are followed are followed the same for all projects. Another service that we are providing now is that if an applicant comes forward and his or her application does not quite fit but the project is one that is a good one and makes some sense and shows promise, staff will certainly work with the proponent to develop the project in a way in which it does meet criteria and then can be proceeded with. I have to say in the same breath though that there are projects which just do not meet the criteria and no matter how you reshape them they just cannot fit. We try to be fairly up front with proponents so that they do not waste a lot of time in developing a project if it simply is not going to fit.

Ms. Wowchuk: The minister prejudged my next question and that was follow‑up on projects, if there are supports there for applicants who put an application in but do not quite meet criteria, but whether there are supports there for them to develop that application so it is acceptable. I appreciate that that is happening.

I want to ask if this is the place to ask a question about Green Team.

An Honourable Member: Yes.

Ms. Wowchuk: The minister indicated that the program has been expanded to a home town component of it. My colleague from the Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans) started to ask the question on this, because I have not been aware of the home town component part of the program. I wonder whether that information has been made available to municipalities, when that was made available and when the application date is for communities to apply for it. Because if a program is there and communities are not going to be aware of it, I would be disappointed if the information is not provided to the municipalities and towns.

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we had a news conference, if you like, or an announcement of the Green Team for this particular year just at the back of the Legislature here last week. I am sorry that the member was not aware of it. We also sent out a press release on that particular event and on the new home town component. It was carried by the media, more so in rural Manitoba than in the city. I would have to say that we have distributed the information to the municipalities and communities, and we would like to make sure that every community knows about it.

I think this is a very exciting part of the program. It is one that we heard about at the UMM meetings as well, and the member for Swan River knows about that because she did join me at some of those meetings where communities wanted to also access the Green Team for their communities. We tried to respond in a positive way.

The applications are available at the student employment offices throughout the province. We have also sent applications, I believe, to the municipal offices. I am informed that they were mailed last Friday so they should be in the hands of the administrators now, and applications are being accepted at this present time. I should tell the member that the Hometown component is for high school students, I guess‑‑not necessarily high school students because they are from the ages of 16 to 24 and it is an eight‑week program from the beginning of July until the end of August.

The Green Team program is a bit different because it runs from the May long weekend right through the summer until the end of August, and so therefore university students would probably be eligible for that program because they are out of class at that time.

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So if there is a need for information in the member's area, I would be only too happy to provide her with that information so she could take it back.

I failed to introduce somebody who has come to the table here, and it is Mr. Peter Mah who is the manager of the REDI program. He informs us that they have received their first Hometown application today.

Just to add‑‑this information is coming to me a little at a time. The Green Team program, I am told, is going to be advertised in the Saturday Free Press so that students from around the province can certainly get that information. The more information we can get out there, the better it is for all of us because we can get these students applying for these programs.

Mr. Storie: I am not sure whether my colleague asked this question, but I understand that the REDI projects that have been approved are going to be tabled with this committee or provided to the critic. Would the minister also undertake to provide a list of the number of jobs that were created along with each project?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that would all be available and we can provide that in the same document.

Mr. Storie: I do not want to digress too much on to topics that have already been covered, but I did want to talk for a minute about the Grow Bonds. The minister had suggested in his [interjection] No, I have not asked a question yet. I am allowed to comment all I want.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister referenced the criticism of the Grow Bonds, or skepticism. I want to tell the minister, when the previous minister announced the creation of Grow Bonds, I believe that our side and certainly I welcomed the initiative. The minister may recall that when the Grow Bonds Program was initially announced that it did not have the RRSP component to it. That was a subsequent change which I think made the program much more attractive.

The minister acknowledged, I think, that this was a slow‑developing program and I am pleased to see that it has met with success, and we predicted that it would. This was not a new initiative in terms of a Canadian scene. Grow Bonds or a facsimile thereof have been in place in Saskatchewan for some time and were proving to be somewhat successful. It can be and it is a good program, and no one on this side has attempted to say otherwise. There were some administrative problems with the program, I think, getting off the ground. It has taken a long time to be at the point where the government now could announce them on a more frequent basis.

The REDI program, however, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, has suffered some, I think, particular growing pains. About a year and a half ago, I met with the Brandon Chamber of Commerce who shared with me a presentation they had made to cabinet which called the REDI program the worst disaster they had ever seen. I am paraphrasing. But we are particularly critical. I am quoting the Brandon Chamber of Commerce [interjection] Well, you do not have to. All he has to do is pull out the brief that was presented to them.

I met with Tom Wilson, who was the executive director of the Economic Development Board or commission in Brandon, who was as well critical of the REDI program‑‑not of the program. I should not say the program. I think everyone acknowledged that it had some potential, but for whatever reason the administrative process was very slow and the approvals particularly were very slow. I have some first‑hand experience with the process. I have a constituent in Leaf Rapids who was developing a product that had received support from the Western Diversification initiative, from the‑‑

An Honourable Member: National Research Council.

Mr. Storie: Well, not the National‑‑well, IRDA or whatever it was called, and had had support from the local Communities Futures group. I phoned the minister personally on this issue. I spoke to a number of people in the department and, needless to say, was frustrated, as was the private entrepreneur who was involved in this project, to the extreme.

I think both the individual who was the proponent of the project and his investors were not so much disappointed with the ultimate result, the conclusion that they were not going to get support from the REDI program, as they were in the delays. They simply would have liked an answer in a timely fashion, and one of the shortcomings has been the length of time it has taken to come to a decision in the program.

So I would like to ask the minister the specific question, what steps has he taken? What has changed in the administration of the program to allow it to proceed in an orderly way?

Mr. Derkach: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, first of all, in response to the member's last comment, the program has always proceeded in an orderly way‑‑

An Honourable Member: Timely way.

Mr. Derkach: ‑‑and in a timely way as well. However, again, this program is not unlike the Grow Bonds Program in that I do not think you are going to find another program that is similar to REDI anywhere in the country, except now Ontario has started to copy our program to some extent, and that is fine, but we did again go through some growing pains initially with the REDI program only because communities did not understand the program.

As a matter of fact, the member speaks about Brandon's response to the REDI program, and their response was basically one of not being familiar with the process and not understanding the process. As a matter of fact, I recall very vividly the mayor of the city wanting to know why their REDI project was not accepted when we had not even received an application, and his response was, yes, well, you knew about it. There is a difference between somebody telling you about a project and then having the application in our hands and being able to consider it.

Once Brandon figured out that we were serious about a process that had to be followed, they have applied and have received the response in a very timely way. If you were to talk to anybody in Brandon, whether it is the mayor or the manager of their community Economic Development Board, you would find that they are very pleased with the response of the REDI program to their applications, because it is timely and staff work very hard to make sure that the responses are quick.

With respect to the project that the member refers to in Leaf Rapids, I like the project. I think it has a lot of potential. It is very innovative. I visited with the proponent. I have looked at his model. I think it is one that is certainly exciting, not only for him but for the industry. However, again, there are certain criteria that have been established under the REDI program in terms of eligibility. We have been discussing this particular project for a long time. It has gone back and forth. The proponent has had to do certain things, which have taken him a long time. At no point did we ever say that, no, this project is not going to fly.

Again, as I indicated to the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), we have allowed staff to work very diligently with the proponents to make sure we can do everything we can in our power to help a proponent along, to make sure that his project qualifies.

I think we are getting closer. I think that project certainly has life to it, and staff right now at this time are working to make sure that the proponent has his share of money in place or his equity in place and that we do not break the rules of the game, if you like, and exceed the limits we have under the legislation in terms of allowing the money to flow.

Mr. Storie: Well, I certainly am prepared to acknowledge that things may have changed. I referenced the Brandon Chamber of Commerce's remarks were some time ago, and I was wondering specifically if there had been any change. The minister seems to imply there have been no changes in the program, and if that is the case, then perhaps the delay that my constituent experienced is still the order of the day. I think, for most of the business community, 11 months or a year or a year and a half to move something along when other approvals are in place and the project is ready to proceed from their perspective is simply too long, and something has to be done to streamline it.

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It is not as if this was a significant drain on the REDI funds. I believe the application was for something like $48,000. I just want to point out that this is an area where the province is losing its strength. This is an area of manufacturing. I know that the minister has a list there, and he is preparing to table it, I gather. We are anxious to see it, but I know that a lot of those things on that list are feasibility studies. There are a lot of projects that would not have the impact overall on the economy like a project like this in manufacturing, 25 manufacturing jobs, might have. It was a significant project that may have been able to be brought to fruition with a little bit of investment at a timely stage in the process.

I mean, obviously, I am pleased there are still discussions, but I can tell you that notwithstanding the minister's suggestion that things are moving along and staff are discussing it, this is one very unhappy entrepreneur who feels that he has been frustrated by this process, and I am simply looking for a way to speed this up.

If really our goal is to promote economic development, timeliness is everything, and certainly it was for these people, so let us see if we can improve that. That is my comment.

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member should know that‑‑you know, he makes reference to the feasibility studies program, and he compares that to a project proposal or an approval of support under the manufacturing component, if you like.

You cannot compare the two. The community out there has asked us that if you are applying for a feasibility study, then you do not have the elaborate amount of work done, because that is really what the feasibility study is all about. So those should be able to be approved very quickly, and we try to make sure that those are approved quickly.

Under the support program, however, you get into that whole question of the amount of equity that is being put in by the proponent. You get into the whole question about how much government money, both federal and provincial, there is in a project, and it is at that time that you run into some snags.

The project the member is referencing is certainly not typical of how we proceed with approvals in the department. This is one that has taken an extraordinary length of time to complete, but we are working with the proponent. I think there has been some frustration on both sides, on his side and on ours, in terms of trying to get this project put together.

As I say, I am supportive of the project in concept, but we cannot approve it unless the guidelines are met, both from an equity point of view and also from a government stacking point of view, as well, so we do not surpass sort of a project whereby government is putting the bulk of the money into it. As I say, I think the project has potential, and I am hoping that in the next short while we will be able to conclude it.

Mr. Clif Evans: I would like to ask the minister, in dealing with this whole REDI program and rural development, can the minister tell us whether there has been any sort of a contract or project made with AT&T in the telecommunications area, or a study, any sort of contact with AT&T?

Mr. Derkach: We have an agreement, if you like, a partnership agreement with AT&T Canada for a project which looks at the potential for interactive services and electronic highway services that might be undertaken in rural Manitoba. The agreement is one where AT&T Canada have come to the table with significant dollars, and I would like to be able to give you the exact amount, if you would just give me a moment, please.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this is a project which involves our Department of Rural Development and the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. It is one to which AT&T Canada brings $190,500 to the table to the project, and Rural Development and Culture, Heritage and Citizenship come to the table with $195,000. This project has been ongoing now for, I believe, about six months. We will be looking at the results of that project in the next little while. I think it is the end of April or the beginning of this month that we will have the final results of this project that we have embarked on.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister indicates it is a partnership agreement with AT&T Canada. How was the partnership agreement‑‑how did it come about? Was it tendered out to work along with Rural Development? Did the authorization come from cabinet or Order‑in‑Council? Basically the start of it, I do not recall seeing anything to that effect.

Mr. Derkach: What happens in projects of this nature, the Department of Rural Development, along with communities, is looking at ways in which we can use technology to better the delivery of services to rural Manitoba. To that extent we work with a variety of companies, and between the department staff, Economic Development Board, people in the industry, we have looked at a project whereby we can deliver not only a specific kind of program but services to rural Manitoba, between communities and also to our urban communities through an electronic highway, if you like, by integrating services so that the costs can be decreased in the delivery of services.

If you look at the models that we have presently in the province, whether it is the FYDE program or distance delivery of education services that we are presently embarked on, whether it is at the school division level or in conjunction with the Department of Education.

One of the very expensive areas is the transmission, and because it is a single service, there is nobody else to share some of the cost of the infrastructure, if you like. What we have to do is try and get multiple users on the system. This is a project which is looking at the possibility of a pilot where we can perhaps deliver, not only one service, but many services through the electronic highway, if you like, and have a number of users who can share the cost and thereby reduce the cost to any single user. So the goal of the project is to establish our province, Manitoba, as a leader in the application of telecommunications technology as a means of providing information and services to all Manitobans and, more specifically, rural Manitobans in this particular project.

It is a fairly broad and holistic initiative, if you like, that is going to facilitate the applications for such services as Distance Education, perhaps services in the health care area, perhaps Library Services, and that is where Culture, Heritage and Citizenship come in, through the Library Services area and other government programs. It also brings the possibility of businesses accessing the telecommunications highway, services such as banking services, for example, that can access the electronic highway as well.

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Now this is a fairly new approach and one that certainly you will not find in too many places in Canada, where you have this kind of an integrated approach. I think it is one that makes sense and one that we are working with not only AT&T Canada; in this partnership, we also have the Manitoba Telephone System who certainly are working in co‑operation with this project.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, who are the principals in this project? Are we dealing with something that we are going to end up getting a consultant's report, or who from the minister's office‑‑is somebody working directly with AT&T Canada on this, and who are the principals with AT&T?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we have individuals from AT&T Canada who are involved in the project. I do not know their names. We also have staff from my department. We have staff from Manitoba Telephone System. We have staff from Education. We have staff from I, T and T. We have staff from Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. We have staff from the Economic Development Board, and I think there is somebody from Health as well.

Pardon me, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, there are also staff from Justice as well and Government Services who sit on a committee who are looking at how we can implement a program like this in rural Manitoba. Besides this, we also have people from the Economic Innovation and Technology Council.

So this is a fairly broad group that is looking at how we can better deliver services, how we can co‑ordinate service delivery to many of our communities in rural Manitoba.

Mr. Clif Evans: Can the minister provide us with the terms of reference?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the objective of this project, and I will read it into the record, is No. 1, to conduct a situational analysis of current government and private telecommunications initiatives and analyze the ability to integrate these into an overall project; and secondly, to conduct a needs assessment of existing end‑user needs for telecommunications network services and to propose a high‑level design of network alternatives, identifying requirements for enhanced services and reviewing current communication and information technology systems and network solutions and assessing impacts on existing networks, and to identify the order of magnitude of network and systems costs and benefits.

Mr. Clif Evans: The minister indicated that $195,000 came from the REDI program, REDI monies‑‑from where? Where is the $195,000 coming from?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the $195,000 that is coming from government is split equally between the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship and the Department of Rural Development.

Mr. Clif Evans: This project, I guess, did it go through the same system, as if someone else wanting do the same sort of thing came to the minister through the REDI program and said, you know, I would like to do this or I can do this with $200,000 I have in my pocket, and I would like $200,000 from the government. Was the process the same? What was the process of getting this all together?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the process was looking at partnerships where departments can come together with a company or an outside entity that can provide the kind of expertise that is required to deliver those services. That is why you have sitting around the table people from various departments, from the Manitoba Telephone System, from AT&T Canada, because this is where the expertise is in this kind of project.

You do not find that just out on the street. I mean you have to make sure that you know what you want and then work with the companies who can offer you that kind of expertise.

Mr. Clif Evans: The minister then is saying the process was taken the same way. Let us say, if I had the same expertise as you claim AT&T has over and above MTS and other department areas, you have a partnership here of just about the whole government. So you are saying that individuals from all these other government departments would not have or be able to co‑ordinate this study, as such, and that it is required to have AT&T Canada to come into play with this. Would we not be able to handle this locally basically or through Government Services, if you are providing money?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, no. The whole idea of this whole proposal is to try and co‑ordinate the efforts of various government departments who would normally be doing things on their own in terms of trying to provide better services to their clients around Manitoba.

Our goal here is to co‑ordinate and integrate these services so that they can be delivered in a more effective and efficient way. That is why we have the partnership approach, if you like, between ourselves, other departments and the Manitoba Telephone System and AT&T Canada.

The member asked whether or not the same procedure is followed with other companies‑‑of course. I mean, we certainly do not turn a blind eye to somebody who has a good idea and wants to better the services in our province. It is not any different, for example, than the natural gas expansion.

Mr. Clif Evans: Then you have some sort of operating board, as such. You have all these partners in place, who chairs the committee as such or who chairs the study or who is in charge of the project?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the Department of Rural Development is taking a lead role in this. However, for example, in Distance Education itself, the Department of Education and Training is certainly the lead on that particular project, because they have the expertise in the whole area of Distance Education. In terms of this integrated approach, this is one that originated in Rural Development and one that we are co‑ordinating on behalf of government.

Mr. Clif Evans: The minister has indicated that this study should be available this month. The end of this month, soon?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it is an internal report to government that will be done. Again, this is an analysis of what, perhaps, we can embark on. It is not something that we are going to be going out and embarking on for the entire province.

First of all, we want to take a look at what can be done.

Mr. Clif Evans: Well, I certainly hope that once it comes out and once it is internal, as he says, we would certainly like to see what has resulted or what is going to result out of something like this. I mean, you are talking $400,000. Let us hope there is something coming out of it.

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Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The hour being five o'clock, time for private members' hour.

Committee rise.

HEALTH

Madam Chairperson (Louise Dacquay): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order.

This section of the Committee of Supply will be dealing with the Estimates for the Department of Health. We are on page 81 of the Estimates manual, 1.(b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits.

Would the minister's staff please enter the Chamber.

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Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Chairperson, the staff will enter the Chamber when they arrive. We can proceed, if the honourable member wishes, to the extent that I can proceed without staff. They will be along shortly.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Perhaps while we are waiting for staff to arrive, the minister tabled a number of documents yesterday at the end of the last session, and I am wondering if perhaps they could be distributed while we are awaiting their arrival.

Mr. McCrae: Yesterday I did not actually table documents, I made them available to my colleagues.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, perhaps the minister could just deal with the chart that the minister distributed yesterday. In any event, I will ask my general question while things are prepared, and I am sure that it will all fall into place as we go along.

Within the chart, underneath the role of the Deputy Minister of Health is the Advisory Committee on Mental Health Reform, and I am wondering if this advisory committee is the committee referred to when the announcement on mental health reform was first announced May 17 of last year. The announcement spoke about the setting up of a committee. Is this the one and same committee? I presume it is, but I just want to confirm that in fact that is the committee, because the mandate of the committee was at the announcement of mental health reform. The mandate of the committee was given to advise the minister on all aspects of mental health reform as the process proceeded.

Mr. McCrae: Subject to subsequent correction, I believe that is correct. We have been able to set up, I believe it is eight Regional Mental Health Councils who have helped us in the implementation of the general plan set out in spring of '92. We have worked with those mental health advisory councils during the process of the intervening time.

For example, it is with the advice and support of the Norman Regional Mental Health Council, for example, that we arrived at the conclusion that the appropriate thing to do would be to provide a range of services in the Norman Region, that means in The Pas and Flin Flon, services that never existed before. In The Pas we will be opening I believe it is eight acute hospital beds‑‑and the attendant staff to go with them. In The Pas‑Flin Flon, Norman Region, we will be hiring a total of 20 new health care staff people to deliver community services by way of mobile crisis stabilization services, counselling services, referral services.

We are also working with organizations like the Canadian Mental Health Association, the Anxiety Disorders Association of Manitoba Inc., the Schizophrenia Society Inc. Manitoba, and the Society for Depression and Manic Depression Inc. in provision of self‑help services delivered by consumers. That is an important feature of our mental health advisory committees that there are consumers involved in those committees in provision of advice.

I guess as a relative newcomer to the whole health care field, one of the things I learned early on is that governments of the past and care providers of the past, through no fault of their own, those people in the past were not set up to take in the advice of the consuming public. That is a very important feature of reform, especially in mental health, because that is what we are talking about right now, but in the whole health care field.

It is a feature that governments and providers at different rates of speed are accepting. It is very important that we listen to consumers and we act on advice given to us by consumers. It is not good enough just to listen to them and then leave everything the way it was, because that has proven to be an inefficient use of the health care dollar and human resource.

In addition to the Norman Region, I was able to visit the city of Thompson to meet with nursing professionals, the hospital board and administration there and members of the staff to discuss the needs‑‑and also to attend a town hall meeting, kindly assisted in organization by the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). We had a very frank, open, educational and interesting discussion amongst the people in that community about their needs, their aspirations for the future, not only of their facility but also for the future of health care in the North.

On another occasion I was able to visit Thompson to announce the government's intention to open 10 new acute care psychiatric beds at the Thompson General Hospital and the new attendant staff to go along with that development. That is something that Thompson has not had in the past. In fact, I announced a full range of mental health services for Thompson and the northern regions and the Thompson region. That includes crisis stabilization services, mobile crisis stabilization services, r