LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA
Wednesday, May 11, 1994
The House met at 1:30 p.m.
PRAYERS
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
TABLING OF REPORTS
Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the 1992‑93
Annual Report of the Department of Labour.
Introduction of Guests
Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the
attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this
afternoon from the Crystal City Elementary School twenty Grade 6 students under
the direction of Mr. Larry Hamilton.
This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for
Turtle Mountain (Mr. Rose).
Also this afternoon, from the River Elm School, we have twenty‑six
Grade 6 students under the direction of Mrs. Jennie Bellino. This school is located in the constituency of
the honourable member for Concordia (Mr. Doer).
From St. Norbert Collegiate, we have twenty‑five Grade 9 students
under the direction of Ms. Michelle Beaulieu.
This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for
St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau).
On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here
this afternoon.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Goods and Services Tax
Replacement‑‑Manitoba Position
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister
of Finance. It is dealing with the goods
and services tax.
We asked the Premier (Mr. Filmon) during his Estimates whether Manitoba
would be presenting a position to the federal Finance committee of Parliament
dealing with the so‑called scrapping of the GST and its replacement, Mr.
Speaker.
The Premier could not indicate at that point to his knowledge whether
Manitoba would be presenting a position paper.
He thought they would not. Five
provinces and the territories have presented a position to the federal
government on the replacement of the GST.
We note that the former Minister of Finance, in 1989, presented
Manitoba's position to the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance in
October 1989.
I was wondering whether the provincial government has presented a
position to the federal government on this tax, which I would suggest most
Manitobans hate. What is our position to
the federal government on this tax?
* (1335)
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, as the Leader of the Opposition
knows, the current federal government campaigned on the basis of a replacement
to the existing GST. This is all a part
of their initiative. They have a
committee that is holding various hearings, and they attended here in Manitoba.
I do not believe that any representation was made from the government or
from the two opposition parties, to the best of my knowledge. We had officials in attendance gathering
information.
I have met with various groups on this issue, but, really, we are
utilizing that process as an opportunity to hear from Manitobans, to hear from
Canadians, on the particular issue. It
is on the agenda for Finance ministers' meetings at the end of June, and we
will have an opportunity for input at that meeting.
Goods and Services Tax
Replacement‑‑Manitoba Position
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the minister will know that
during our discussions of the GST during the Premier's Estimates, the Premier
indicated that the discussions between the provincial government and
representatives of the federal government‑‑two themes recurred in
those discussions. One is that they want
to have the tax hidden, and two, they want to have some form of harmonization
collection with the provinces, harmonization to overcome the criticisms coming
from small business.
I would like to know from the Premier, is that still the position that
we are hearing in terms of what will happen with the GST from the federal
government?
We are expecting a report from the federal Finance committee. Certainly, I do not believe that Canadians
want to go from a bad tax that is visible to a bad tax that is invisible.
Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I mentioned to the Leader of the
Opposition during the Estimates that those were the only themes I had heard,
not that I had heard them recently.
Those were the themes that occurred, in fact were under discussion last
time we got together with the federal leader, Mr. Chretien, which was back, I
guess, in December.
Since then, we have not heard anything other than that they are out for
consultation, presumably listening to what Canadians are telling them about
what ought to be done with the GST, but those were the only ideas that it
appeared the federal government had at the time. Whether or not they adopt some of the
suggestions that are being made to them by Canadians‑‑there may
well be better suggestions put forward by people across Canada.
Goods and Services Tax
Replacement‑‑Manitoba Position
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, one of the proposals that the
Finance committee is dealing with, allegedly, is the whole issue of replacing
the GST with a business transfer tax. All
of us have been briefed by a large coalition of people against that proposal,
primarily a business coalition. We have
not had the capacity to review except on a very, I would say, superficial basis
the business transfer tax and its impact in Japan, the only country where it is
applied.
But this coalition of small business, retail business and other business
argues that the business transfer tax is a tax which would be imposed on food,
residential rents, financial services, educational, health and government
services.
I wonder whether that is the analysis or assessment of the provincial
government about replacing the GST with the business transfer tax. What is Manitoba's position on a business
transfer tax, on its impact on our consumers and on our citizens, particularly
on the issue of food and education, health services and housing in terms of how
it will impact on Manitoba?
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, we are in the process of looking
at the various alternatives that are being put forward. The Leader of the Opposition is correct. One suggestion has been a business transfer
tax, and we are in the process of determining what the ramifications of that
kind of a tax could be here in Manitoba.
He also did indicate, I believe, that the coalition that I think he met
with and we certainly met with, the Manitoba coalition for GST replacement, is
promoting a different approach, really a broadening of what currently
exists. They have eight or nine
fundamental principles in theirs, and we are not convinced that all of the
principles necessarily correlate to one another.
There is some suggestion you might be able to lower the overall tax and
so on, but there are other aspects to the tax in terms of input tax credits
which do not necessarily allow for the kind of reduction that many people are
talking about. So it is a very detailed
and a very complex issue, obviously, when you are dealing with taxation.
We are analyzing all of the approaches being put forward, and as I
indicated to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer), we will have an
opportunity for input at the Finance ministers' meeting in June and certainly,
I am sure, First Ministers will be discussing the issue.
* (1340)
Health Care System
Funding
Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, first the government had a plan
to cut hospital beds and put in place community services. They did not put in place community services;
they only cut beds. Then the government
brought in Connie Curran, and she was going to do all of the reforming of the
health care system, and we know what happened to Connie Curran, and we know how
well off she is today.
Yesterday, we learned from the minister that for the first time we have
heard that a hundred million dollars is going to be cut from the urban
hospitals and that the management of those hospitals are saying that this
arbitrary decision is without any apparent understanding of the service
implications.
My question to the minister is, can the minister table the plan for the
cutting out of a hundred million dollars, and could he advise us what the
effect is for each hospital and how many jobs will be lost in the health care
system as a result of the government's hundred‑million‑dollar plan?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I have been consistent in making
it clear not only to the honourable member, but to all facilities and the
Manitoba Health Organization, anybody involved in the operation of acute care
facilities, saying to them that whatever proposals they make, I will not accept
any that have any negative impact on patient care.
The honourable member wants me to table a plan. I have not made a plan. The honourable member should be aware that I
have asked hospitals in Manitoba how they propose to respond to the declining
demand that will be placed on acute care facilities as we continue to build
services in the community, build services and spaces.
For example, the honourable member's question takes no account of the
fact that River East Personal Care Home has established 120 new personal care
beds; Kildonan Personal Care Home has established 120 new personal care beds;
Concordia Hospital has established 60 beds; Deer Lodge, 44 beds; the municipal
hospitals, 20 beds.
The honourable member's question does not take into account that the
shift from acute care to community care is happening and is working and working
well.
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the minister knows that their
cuts to this point have affected patient care.
I ask the minister, again, it is their plan. They have told the hospitals to cut a hundred
million dollars that will affect jobs, that will affect beds and, most of all,
will affect patient care. The minister
cannot have it both ways. He cannot set
out a plan for a hundred million dollars and then say, oh, it is not going to
affect patient care.
Will the minister table the plan to cut a hundred million dollars that
they have asked the hospitals in Winnipeg and Brandon to cut?
Mr. McCrae: The honourable member's question assumes that
nothing has happened in the last six years in the community. I remind him that the government has
increased spending for home care services by 93 percent in six years.
The honourable member has to look at this in a historical perspective,
too. That program began in the mid‑'70s. Before that, there was almost total reliance
on acute care spaces in hospitals.
Average length of stay has changed very, very considerably.
The honourable member and his colleagues want to continue to see
patients in hospitals who do not need to be there. That is not an appropriate place for people
who can be looked after at home and who can heal better at home. The honourable member seems to be saying,
scrap the Home Care program, and I will not do that.
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the minister knows that most of
the increases in Home Care in this budget is as a result of the user fees that
have been imposed on home care supplies.
Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary:
Will the minister outline how much of that hundred‑million cut has
already been realized and how much remains to be realized from the urban
hospitals, and how much, in addition, are rural facilities to cut from their
budgets?
* (1345)
Mr. McCrae: Because patient care is the bottom line of
this government, last fall, those hospitals moving to comply with staffing
guidelines were asked to put on hold any layoffs at that time while we could
review those guidelines. We have the
help of the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses. We have the help of the College of Physicians
and Surgeons, the help of the Manitoba Association of Licensed Practical Nurses
and others involved in the review of those staffing guidelines.
I suggest to the honourable member that what he wants to defend is
hospitals in Manitoba with low occupancy rates having the capacity to look
after large numbers of patients who are not there, who do not need that
service. What the honourable member
wants to defend is the old way of delivering service to people, which is not
going to be appropriate in the future and is not sustainable.
I want to preserve the health care system, but the honourable member
wants to destroy it.
SHI Limited
Government Loan
Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, yesterday, I
questioned the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism on the wisdom of raising
expectations of the people of Selkirk about 600 jobs and about a $2.5‑million
loan to a company called Saskatoon Heavy Industries.
Mr. Speaker, in 1990, just before the Conservative government of
Saskatchewan went to the polls, the same company, a one‑man company led
by a man by the name of Blue Taylor made a promise to the people of Corman
Park, just outside of Saskatoon, that there would be up to 10,000 jobs, doing
what? Manufacturing heavy equipment.
Mr. Speaker, not one of those jobs was ever created. The man has not registered that company in
Saskatchewan since that time. It has
lost its federal registration in the last two years.
Why is this government hopping into bed with a fly‑by‑night
operation which has never built anything?
Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, it is not this
government's or any member of this government's intention to raise
expectations. I think the member should
refer to his question yesterday as to the way in which he approached it. He was criticizing this government for
working to create jobs in Manitoba. We
have not lent any money to anyone in SHI.
We have said if 18 conditions are met, we will negotiate with them the
possibility of some 600 jobs in Selkirk.
By the way, the member is saying we are jumping into bed. No, it is the community of Selkirk, the
chamber of commerce, community leaders who have come forward asking for
consideration, so he should refer his comments, I believe, to the Selkirk
Chamber of Commerce. That would be more
appropriate, Mr. Speaker.
SHI Limited
Government Loan
Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, this government saw
fit to pass an Order‑in‑Council guaranteeing up to $2.5
million. They will not loan any money to
students, but they will sure loan to Saskatoon Heavy Industries. They put that money on the table, committed
it in the event that conditions are met.
Saskatoon Heavy Industries have led the people of Selkirk in this province
to believe there will be hundreds of jobs.
They did the same thing before the 1990 election with Repap when they
promised 800 jobs which did not materialize.
Why is this government going down the road that even Grant Devine pulled
away from before the election because he realized what he had gotten into? Why is this government prepared to get into
bed and commit this money and raise these expectations unfairly for the people
of Selkirk when this company has never built anything and went through this
four years ago with Mr. Devine?
* (1350)
Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I think the member opposite
ought to firstly consider his words. He
is the one who raised this in the House.
We did not put out any press release‑‑
Point of Order
Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a press
release entitled Progressive Conservative issued yesterday by this‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point
of order.
The honourable Leader, would you kindly take your bench, sir.
* * *
Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, this government did not raise
the issue in the House. That member
raised the issue in the House. This
government did not‑‑[interjection]
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Leader of the second
opposition party, you have already put your question, sir. He is attempting to put more questions on
while the honourable First Minister is trying to attempt to respond to the
first question.
I would ask the honourable First Minister to deal with the matter
raised.
Mr. Filmon: I know that the Leader of the Liberal Party
knows he is looking foolish on this issue, but I will just ensure that he knows
he is the one who raised the issue, that this government responded to the work
that has been done by the economic development group in Selkirk, by the chamber
of commerce, the local community and all the interested people to attract an
industry.
This government has only agreed to put forward loan money provided that
they meet 18 conditions that include them raising $24 million of available
capital financing.
I think what the member opposite ought to be doing is trying to tell the
public how he can square his position yesterday about being against government
financing for business when he put out a news release on the eve of the opening
of the Legislature entitled, Liberal legislative agenda, that says that the
Liberal Party legislative agenda will lead with a dual strategy, training
strategy focused on youth and tax incentives for business.
This is the most confused individual we have sitting in this Legislature. He does not know what he is saying. He changes his mind from one day to the next,
and he is acting as an absolute fool. If
he wants to dig himself out, that is fine, Mr. Speaker, go ahead.
SHI Limited
Government Loan
Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, what I am against
is a government trying to dupe the public just before an election, and that is
what you are trying to do.
Let me just remind the Premier of a headline in the Saskatoon Star‑Phoenix
two years ago. Forty million factories
still remains a dream‑‑and it is going to be a dream here, Mr.
Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism
why he put forward an Order‑in‑Council naming a company as being
deserving of a commitment to a $2.5‑million loan, albeit on certain
conditions, when it is not even a registered corporation. It has lapsed. Secondly, where and when has this company
ever built anything, because yesterday the minister said on the record in
response to my question, he specifically said, this is a company which
constructs or manufactures or makes heavy manufacturing or heavy mining‑type
equipment.
What have they ever made, Mr. Speaker?
Why is this government leading the people of this province to believe
they are creating jobs? They are
creating false hopes. They know they are
not coming. They have no intention. They did it in 1990, and they are doing it
again.
* (1355)
Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, it is not the intention
of this ministry or this government to falsely raise expectations. It is not our intention at all.
Yesterday, I responded to a question in the Legislature which the
Liberal member raised, which I think he is finding extremely embarrassing today
and by which he has now caused himself some embarrassment and is trying to dig
out of it.
Mr. Speaker, it is a federally registered company. It has exclusive production rights for a
product from Germany that manufactures heavy industrial equipment for mining
and that like‑type of activity.
I would agree. Maybe I misstated
yesterday that they have built something.
They probably have not, but they have a proposal, Mr. Speaker, that the
community of Selkirk found acceptable.
The Economic Development Board, the chamber of commerce, they came
forward requesting that this government give consideration to their
proposal. We said if 18 conditions are
met, we will entertain a loan proposal.
We will not give it unless certain conditions are made, one of which is
there has to be $24 million of equity and/or loan capital raised by that
company.
That is pretty clear, Mr. Speaker.
Maybe the Liberal Leader has a hard time understanding it, but I think
the general public will clearly understand it, if communicated properly.
Point of Order
Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, the minister has, I believe, put
on the record that I was misleading the House about the federal
registration. The company has had its
registration lapse‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point
of order.
Grow Bond Program
Jentan Project
Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, last night I had the
opportunity, along with 50 residents in Selkirk, to attend a public meeting in
Selkirk concerning the proposed Jentan project which could create 15 to 35 jobs
in Selkirk.
As the Minister of Rural Development knows, this project is endorsed by
the Triple S business development centre in Selkirk.
I would like to ask the minister today if he can tell the House when the
firm will know whether or not it will be accepted for a Grow Bond program.
Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): I would like to tell the member
that the company Jentan has been working with the community of Selkirk for some
time in putting the proposal forward, but there has been no application to the
Department of Rural Development for a Grow Bond to my knowledge.
Now, I think there has been some work done as background work, Mr.
Speaker, for the potential of a Grow Bond, but I do not believe there is an
application that has come forward for a Grow Bond or for any amount.
Mr. Speaker, the project would be examined, as all projects are. The review committee would examine it, as
well, but we will wait until there is indeed an application forwarded to the
department and to the review committee.
Mr. Dewar: Fortunately for Selkirk, Mr. Speaker, the
Liberal Leader nor was any of his candidates there at the meeting last night,
opposing jobs, opposing development for Selkirk. Fortunately for Selkirk, they were not there.
Grow Bond Program
Jentan Project
Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my next question is for the
Minister of Environment. This project
depends upon the price for recycled tires remaining at the current level, and I
ask the Minister of Environment, will he assure the House and the people of
Selkirk that the program will continue and that these rates will not be
lowered?
Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, this system that
Jentan is proposing has certainly been one that has been intriguing from the
start. Their proposal is certainly
eligible if they meet certain criteria.
However, I would caution the member and anyone who would apply under the
Used Tire Program that it would have to meet particular criteria, as the
establishment of this plant would have to meet environmental criteria.
SHI Limited
Government Loan
Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my final question: I would like to table a letter from the
Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey) thanking me for my support
of the SHI program and the 600 jobs that will come to Selkirk. I guess the minister has a poor memory, and
he forgot that he signed the letter on March 18.
My question to the Minister of Rural Development is: Can he tell the House whether the SHI project
will find out whether or not it is in line for a Grow Bond as well?
Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Mr. Speaker, I believe the
Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism
laid out the conditions that have to be met prior to any funds being
made available to the company. Indeed,
no application at this point in time has been made, as far as I know, to the
department with respect to a Grow Bond.
Before we would even consider it, those conditions that have been
outlined by the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism would have to be met
before we could even take the first step.
* (1400)
Brandon General Hospital
Funding
Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the
Minister of Health.
The Brandon General Hospital has suffered serious cuts in its budget by
this government in the past few years, forcing it to close the palliative care
ward, the gynecology ward, and reducing the level of nursing care in that
hospital. Now it has been required to
cut another $4 million in the next three years.
One option being considered is the elimination of one‑third of its
surgical beds, but this will only save about $300,000.
My question to the minister is, where is the Brandon General Hospital
supposed to find the remaining $3.7 million it has been ordered to cut?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Well, I thank the honourable member for
raising this question, because, like him, I share the view of the importance of
the Brandon General Hospital today and the services it delivers well into the
future for future generations of western Manitobans. That is why we are looking at a phased
approach to the delivery of services in Westman.
We do not start, as was done in 1987, with no planning whatsoever for
the permanent closure of 42 beds at Brandon General Hospital by the honourable
member and his colleagues. I remind the
honourable member, he sat in the cabinet that made that decision, and after it
was made, he went away and hid.
Mr. Leonard Evans: The people of the city of Brandon and Westman
want to know of this minister and of this government, when will these cuts to
the Brandon General Hospital's operating budget cease? When will the downgrading cease?
As the minister knows, over 5,000 people in Westman signed a petition in
1992, and they believed that the quality of health care at BGH was
suffering. The minister knows that.
Mr. McCrae: The honourable member has already proved that
his thinking is the thinking that goes back 25 years. We know that.
He has demonstrated that in this House.
The honourable member says, when is it going to end? Reform of the health system and change in the
whole world's industrial, economic and political system is going to go on for a
long time. The honourable member should
have gotten used to that by now. He has
been around long enough.
The point is, you cannot continue to apply the solutions of 25 years ago
to the problems of today. The fact is
the honourable member and his party did little or nothing to promote and to
enhance home care services, little or virtually nothing to promote seniors
services in our communities, little or nothing to promote adult day clubs in
this province. Those are the things this
government has been promoting and funding.
By way of illustration, to show who has the interests of the health of
Manitobans at heart, I point to the record of spending of our government on
health care as a percentage of total spending and compare it to that of the
government represented previously, in the olden days, by the honourable member,
and his government looks very shoddy indeed‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please.
Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, the people of Brandon and area know
that we built $18 million worth of nursing homes in three years, '86, '87 and
'88‑‑$3 million, and the member knows that, too.
On behalf of the people of Brandon and Westman, I ask the minister, what
is your long‑term plan for the Brandon General Hospital? The people out there want to know, how far is
this minister, is this government going to go to cut levels of services? How many more beds are you going to cut? How many more staff are you going to lay off?
Mr. McCrae: It is exactly long‑term planning that
we are trying to do and that honourable members opposite want to stop. I think it is paradoxical that they rise in
the House so sanctimoniously, when really, if we followed their advice, we
would have destroyed the health care system about a year ago.
The honourable member asked about a long‑term plan for Brandon
General Hospital. Our government, not
the one that he used to be involved in that cut hospital beds at Brandon
without any plan, has approved the first phase of a $72‑million
redevelopment for Brandon General Hospital.
That redevelopment will take place over 10 years and will take into
account the population health needs of western Manitobans, and we will do so
far more efficiently than the honourable members opposite ever dreamed of
doing. In fact, whenever they dreamed of
efficiency, they felt they were having nightmares.
Provincial Judges
Early Retirement Package
Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, we now have record backlogs in
the provincial court. For young
offenders, this means that consequences are not meaningful and are not related
to the offence. For abused partners, it
makes a mockery of the zero tolerance policy against spousal violence.
My question for the Minister of Justice is, now that the government has
made a back‑room buy out of eight judges at a cost of $1 million to
Manitobans, meaning, by the way, that Manitobans will be short 11 full‑time
judges by July 1‑‑that is a quarter of the bench‑‑will
the minister advise of the projected impact on the court backlog?