LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF
Wednesday, June 1, 1994
The House met at 7 p.m.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
(continued)
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
(Concurrent Sections)
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Deputy Chairperson
(Marcel Laurendeau): Good evening.
Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. The committee will be resuming consideration
of the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture.
When the committee last sat, it had been considering item
4.(b)(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,546,400 on page 16 of the Estimates
book.
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (
I only have a couple more questions on this section and
those have to do with the Veterinary Services districts. The government a few years ago decided to
privatize the vet services clinics district facilities and at that time we had
some concern that this would result in a reduced quality of services in rural
areas and that under this situation perhaps the veterinarians would not be
willing to travel. Those were some of
the concerns that were raised by farmers, that they would not have equal
service. There was also concern that the
supplies would increase in price. So I
would like to ask the minister what the result has been and whether there has
been a change in the quality of the veterinarian services that are being
offered throughout the province?
Hon. Harry Enns
(Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Deputy
Chairperson, to the member for Swan River, I can report to her and the
committee that I had the occasion to attend the annual meeting of the Manitoba
Veterinary Services Board that continues to be chaired by a former long‑time
gentleman from the Department of Agriculture by the name of Helgi Austman whom
some of you may remember. I spent the
better part of the morning with them.
Their meeting held about a month ago in Neepawa, I believe it was, I had
an occasion to hear directly from a number of the people who serve as directors
of the different veterinarian establishments throughout the
Now, I am referring to those that are part of the
government‑supported veterinarian facilities that we have. I think, in the main, although there was some
concern expressed because, regrettably, as other services that we in the
Department of Agriculture offer, they had to come to terms with a slight
reduction in their annual grants a year ago or two years ago of some 5 percent,
which was across the board to all of the facilities. But in the main, certainly, one got the
impression that they were continuing to provide quality of service to our
important sector for the Animal Industry branch. They are in total numbers virtually
unchanged. I think we have some 29
veterinary districts that receive a total of some $444,100 in this year's
budget.
The municipal grants and provincial grants are expended to
maintain, to operate, the animal hospitals and services at an ongoing
standard. There have been no significant
changes. There were one or two districts‑‑I
believe one of the districts in the Steinbach area had considered dissolving
and moving toward a private veterinary status.
I do not think that has been completed.
In fact, that has been withdrawn, I am advised by Dr. Neufeld. We continue to provide this service that the
member refers to throughout the province of Manitoba in these 29 veterinarian
districts.
* (1910)
The issue that came up at the annual meeting was that
although a number of them have been able to effect some improvements to their
facilities, the member and members of the committee ought to be reminded that
in the first instances, when many of these veterinarian services were
established, surplus buildings were used from different Canadian Armed Forces
services bases, principally Macdonald, that often provided the main structure
for the establishment of these veterinarian services.
These are now‑‑were 30, 40 years old at the
time and are now getting considerable age on them. The request was made, considerable discussion
was held at the meeting for some potential ways of finding some additional
capital funds to make some necessary improvements to the structures
themselves. That is being entertained
seriously by my government, by myself.
In fact, we have before the infrastructure committee a request in for
some $300,000 that would, if successful‑‑and I want to stress that
point, that no decision has been made, that it is before the committee that
deals with the infrastructure program, which involves federal and
provincial. In this case, the third
party would be the provincial veterinarian board that would together make up,
say, meet the criteria for accessing that fund.
It is my hope that we may be successful because that would
enable, under the auspices of the board, under Dr. Austman to provide in some
instances much needed capital repair to aging facilities. We have about 13 or 14 of the 29 that are in
some critical need. Another number of
them have, in the manner and the way which they have budgeted past funds, in
some instances, they have managed to accrue some surpluses. They have, together with the support from the
municipal governments that make up the district, been able to effect
considerable improvements to the facility.
Not all the facilities are in need, but that is something that we
discussed. It is my hope that perhaps we
can conclude.
It would be in my judgment a valuable contribution, further
contribution to ensure the continued operation of these facilities under
conditions that are on a more acceptable level.
The specific questions, with respect to the analysis or
result of the withdrawal on the part of government from the drug centre, from
the semen centre, I have not had brought to my attention any specific
complaints. The minister's office and/or
the director of the Animal Industry branch would be a natural repository for
these kinds of concerns to be brought to, and that, in fact, I must say simply
from my experience, has not been the case.
I am advised by staff, again, that the costs of drugs to
producers are still comparable to other provinces and indeed in many situations
are, in fact, lower when taken on a comparison basis with our sister
provinces. Manitoba veterinarians now
pay comparable prices for drugs as do veterinarians in all other provinces with
a veterinarian‑owned co‑operative.
The percent markup on drugs has not changed and will still be negotiated
annually by the veterinarians and the Veterinary Services Commission.
Co‑op charges a 12 percent handling charge to its
members on all drugs and a 15 percent handling charge on non‑members. In other words, while the government itself
is removed from the day to day and direct ownership or control of the drug
centre, there is still a considerable degree of co‑operation existing
between the users, the prescribers and the industry, which has resulted in us
being able to say with some confidence that there has been no noticeable
increase in the cost of the drugs that the livestock producers in the province
require as dispensed through these facilities.
With the question of semen, cows are being inseminated, I
presume, at the same level of service.
Has there been noticeable increases of cost to producers using
artificial insemination in the livestock industry?
I am advised by my director that over the years, as one
would expect, a considerable increase in on‑farm application of this
method of impregnating animals‑‑there are a growing number of
operators who have availed themselves of education opportunities to do this,
and there are farm technicians around that provide the service. It has not been brought to my attention that
this has caused any added problems or costs or difficulties to the livestock
sector.
Ms. Wowchuk: I thought that the veterinarians were
lobbying for an increased fee schedule last fall, and some farmers were quite
concerned that they were lobbying for quite a substantial increase in their
fees. Although they did not go to the
level the veterinarians wanted, there has been an increase in the fee structure,
to my understanding, and that is what I was looking for.
Mr. Enns: My advice is that the member is correct, that
initially the demand by the veterinarians was for considerable increase in
their fee structure, but that does not surprise me. That is a negotiating tactic that is used by
many organizations who feel that their services are of increasing value, but
following extensive negotiations the Veterinary Services Commission approved a
7 percent fee increase for the year '93, and that compares to the requests on
the part of the veterinarians which was for an 18 percent increase in the fee
schedules. That simply was not
acceptable to the commission, and after lengthy negotiations a decision was
agreed to that provided for that 7 percent increase that I just indicated for
'93 and followed by a 6 percent increase in the '94 fees.
Ms. Wowchuk: That in fact is a fairly substantial increase
in comparison to other people in the public sector and the private sector in
comparison to what farmers are in comparison to farm costs. That was one of the concerns that was raised
when we were moving in this direction, that we would see an increase in
fees. I just put that on the
record. I do not expect that the minister
will defend it or not defend it. I just
say in comparison to the increases that we have seen in other areas, this is a
fairly substantial increase in fees.
* (1920)
Mr. Enns: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I accept those
comments as expressed by the honourable member for what they are worth. It is always a subjective matter in terms of‑‑particularly
in these times when we as governments impose on our own employees salary
freezes. Indeed when we read about other
sectors in the private sector, as we do about industrial workers perhaps in
fear of a plant closure, as is the case with the 500 workers at the Abitibi
plant in Pine Falls accepting, you know, voluntarily, even though they are well
represented by one of the stronger labour organizations in the country, the
united woodworkers union of America, accepting up to 5 and 10 percent rollbacks
in salary because of the economic circumstances of the time.
Even under this atmosphere, that did not prevent, for
instance, this government, who quite frankly does not have a reputation of
handing out raises all that generously in the public sector, from recognizing
that the nurses, taken comparably across the provinces, deserved a 26 percent
increase a few years ago and were provided that.
There has been considerable concern expressed by both large
and small animal practitioners that the average annual net income of
veterinarians in Manitoba was considerably lower than comparable services in
professionals in other parts of the country.
I think the responsibility the department and the minister
does accept is that precisely at a time when we are stressing the importance of
an expanding livestock industry, individual farmers and producers in Manitoba
are recognizing that and are expanding livestock operations. They are expanding. Our beef herd, for instance, now is
approaching or is just passing the all‑time high records of beef numbers
that we enjoyed in the early and the mid‑'70s.
We have talked at length about the expansion in the hog
industry, but it is not just that. You
travel the landscape of Manitoba and you will come across all matter of
livestock that were not there 15 or 20 years ago. Long‑legged birds grace our landscape
that one would normally only see in the sand dunes of Africa or Australia, emus‑‑what
are these other ones‑‑the ostriches.
I was invited to attend an ostrich seminar at the
International Inn a few months ago, and I was pleased to go, partly because it
intrigued me. I thought I would be
coming into maybe a room of 30 or 40 people who got enthused about these birds,
the ostriches. Mr. Deputy Chairperson,
you will not believe me; in fact, you will think that I am pulling your leg, or
that I am susceptible to my style of overstating the point or that I am
exaggerating, but there were 550 people gathered at the International Inn at
the 8th annual or 9th annual ostrich convention held here in the city of
Winnipeg, and I was just blown away, to use the vernacular.
These are some of the changes that are taking place in the
livestock end of agriculture in Manitoba.
So I think this minister certainly would be extremely concerned that we
maintain the highest possible level of veterinary services to provide the
appropriate care for these animals, particularly in a climate and a time when a
lot of people are watching us, people who are not engaged in agriculture,
people who are not involved in any of these animals, but are extremely
concerned about the welfare of the animals, want to know that people who are
housing these animals, people who own these animals, people who are operating
and trying to make a commercial business out of these animals, are doing it in
an acceptable manner, in a humane manner that takes into consideration the
welfare of our animal populations.
Ms. Wowchuk: After that lengthy answer, I would want to
assure the minister that I would not want anyone to be denied a fair salary for
the work that they do. If the
veterinarians, he feels, are underpaid, then they should have a fair wage, but
he should also recognize‑‑and he has said his government has made
some tough decisions. I hope that he
will have as broad a perspective when it comes to the salaries of other people
and keep as open a mind as he has with the veterinarians in their increase in
salary.
I want to move on to another area. [interjection] On that
one? If you want to ask, sure, go ahead.
Mr. Neil Gaudry (St.
Boniface): The minister talked about ostrich
farming. Could he give us a few details
of how many farms there are in Manitoba and what is the population of
ostriches?
Mr. Enns: I can just indicate in a general way, while
Dr. Taylor is just checking his information to see whether he has the actual
number of people who are engaged in some form of ostrich farming, it is
relatively new, but‑‑[interjection] Well, now there it is. Just when I was starting to make excuses for
staff, they just come up with the numbers again. It is a constant source of wonder to me how
they anticipate the honourable member's question.
We have for instance in, what I would call, the
nontraditional livestock, in the province of Manitoba, first of all, some 1,700
bison. We have some 150 fallow deer; we
have some 70 llamas or alpacas; we have some 700 wild boar; some 600 ostriches;
200 emus and 25 rheas. But coming back
to that seminar I attended, it was one of my constituents, as a matter of fact,
just living off the Perimeter Highway in the municipality of Rosser, who has a
number of ostriches. If I recall
correctly, he told me there are upwards to between 45 and 55 operations with
ostriches in Manitoba.
Mr. Gaudry: The minister mentioned that there was
wildlife or wild boars and elks or whatever.
What controls does the provincial government have over these wild animal
farms?
Mr. Enns: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, allow me to correct
the honourable member. We do not‑‑and
under the official classification while I call them nontraditional, they are
not referred to or are they on the same designation as wild. We do not have elk ranching in the province,
which are under that designation, for instance.
Bison, for whatever reason, are classified in the same category as
domestic animals, although my reference to them as nontraditional, I think the
honourable member will appreciate. The
same thing applies to fallow deer, for instance, which are not native.
My recollection is the principal difference, in my
understanding, of how the Department of Natural Resources and its Wildlife
branch makes the distinction is that these animals are not native in the wild
to Manitoba, which the wild boar is not.
For instance, although we call it a wild boar and it is not part of the
traditional hog raising and pork industry in the province, they are not
regarded under the rules and regulations in the Department of Natural Resources
as under the designation 'Wildlife.'
So these facilities all would come under the kind of normal
attention of our animal industry branch in terms of their treatment and in
terms of responding to perhaps complaints that may be registered against owners
of these animals.
I would be the first one to acknowledge that understandably‑‑you
know, we did not have emus and ostriches here a few years ago. So I think in fairness to the branch, but I
do not say this lightly, I think that the responsibility will be on the branch
and on the department that we will in effect respond with the appropriate
attention by the department and eventually with appropriate regulations with
respect to their humane handling of these animals, their housing of these
animals.
As I said earlier, the whole question of animal welfare is
one that the department is extremely sensitive to and is prepared to dedicate
more time and resources to.
* (1930)
Mr. Gaudry: Some time back, not too long ago, there was a
diseased bison or something. I believe
it was in the Interlake area. Has that
been controlled?
Mr. Enns: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, there was a situation
where an animal already dead was brought into our veterinarian diagnostic
centre at the campus at the university and was subsequently diagnosed‑‑I
do not know if definitively‑‑but was believed to have had something
that we deemed could well have been anthrax, which of course is a very serious
disease and one that is required under law to be immediately notified under the
federal animal health act.
This was done and I compliment everybody concerned, the
federal Health people, our own people who were involved, and the operator who,
in my understanding, co‑operated fully because it was of course very much
in his interest.
We from the animal industry branch's point of view were of
course extremely sensitive and vigilant to the fact that should it have become
a more serious problem that it had very major potential consequences to our
entire livestock industry, in the sense that trading partners become extremely
nervous when they hear of this kind of difficulty and are all too quick to
impose embargoes or indeed outright bans on the movement of animals into a
country, say, like the United States.
But my information, again from Dr. Neufeld here, is that
all activity in the herd has been declared absolutely normal, that extensive
testing and retesting of the facilities, of the herds in question, have taken
place, and that the issue has been satisfactorily dealt with.
Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if the minister would
correct something that he just said‑‑or whether I misunderstood
him. He said that we have no elk farming
in Manitoba, and I do not believe that is accurate. In fact, I believe there are large numbers of
elk that are in captivity.
I wonder if there is‑‑although the government
had indicated that they were going to end elk ranching and took some steps,
those elk were not taken out of captivity.
In fact, there is sale of elk out of this province. There is sale of elk horns, and I am not sure
about whether there is any elk being sold in the form of meat right now, but I
wonder what direction the government is going in.
Is it the intent of the government to expand elk ranching,
and have there been any additional operations established? Or is the government going to carry through
on the commitment that they made when they ended elk ranching and see those
facilities that are now operating closed?
It either has to be one way or another.
You either end elk ranching and have none of it at all, or you open it
up. The government, although they say
they have ended elk ranching, it has not happened, and there are many of these
animals in captivity and being raised right now for sale.
Mr. Enns: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I acknowledge and am
aware of the fact that there are animals under permit as issued by the
Department of Natural Resources. There
is no formal elk ranching taking place in the province of Manitoba that, for
instance, the Department of Agriculture has any hand in in terms of supporting
or servicing. That is a question, as the
member is well aware, because of the proximity of a particular operator in her
constituency. I am not privy to what the
precise arrangements are that were made that permitted these animals to remain
in captivity.
You know, an operation came to a halt, but under permit
there are elk that are still being raised.
There is no prohibition from calves being sold out of province. There are adults available that are being
kept for exhibit and other reasons. My
information from the department is that there is no meat that is being used for
human consumption as a result from these operations, and that is about all the
information I can give the honourable member.
I encourage her, though, to raise this issue with my colleague, the now
Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Driedger), when his Estimates come before
this committee.
Ms. Wowchuk: In other provinces there are animals such as
elk and deer being raised as domestic animals.
Is there any work being done, is there any research being done by this
government? I remember being at a
conference once where one of the staff people from the Department of
Agriculture, I believe it was a Ms. Honey who was at this conference, indicated
that we were losing a real opportunity here in Manitoba because we were not
pursuing that. I wonder if there is any
attempt by this minister to pursue that field in Manitoba.
Mr. Enns: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the other
afternoon during Question Period in the House I gently reminded the honourable
member for Swan River that along that dusty road to Damascus there were many
strange conversions having taken place since antiquity, and some even sooner or
later like, as I recall reminding her, the Liberal Party and our Prime Minister
embracing NAFTA after having fought so vigorously against it during the
election. But I must confess that as I
travel that road from the third floor in the Department of Natural Resources to
the office of the Minister of Agriculture on the first floor, on this
particular subject matter of elk ranching one does ponder different attitudes
and a different outlook on the question.
We, on the one hand, are constantly challenged as a
department to try to provide for our farming population every possible
opportunity for new and diversified forms of farming, if you like, for finding
income levels that are not dependent on government subsidies, such as we find
in some of our more traditional programs and for whom there may be some reason to
believe they would not always be in place.
So we encourage our producers to search out niche markets
in the house products, for instance, in the sugar beets, in the potatoes and in
some of the nontraditional animals that I just provided some information for
the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry), whether it is ostriches or wild boar,
bison.
It has come to my attention that some of the positions I
held very dearly and strongly up on the third floor as Minister of Natural
Resources ought to be reviewed, but then I am that kind of a minister that
believes one must always look at new challenges. If you give me just a few more minutes I will
be able to say that I will not have had to answer your question.
Pass. Can we pass
this item?
Ms. Wowchuk: No, you have not passed it. In all seriousness, is the department looking
at the value of this type of industry in other provinces and doing any
comparisons? Are there any plans in the
department to pursue, to open those doors in Manitoba? Is that a direction that the department is
looking at?
(Mr. Bob Rose, Acting
Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair)
Mr. Enns: No. I
can state emphatically that the department and the government is not changing
its direction with respect to the question of elk ranching, but I take this
occasion to put on the record that I have asked the Animal Industry branch to
look more closely at the situation, the economics, the possibilities, the
opportunities that occur, not just with respect to elk but particularly with
respect to what is happening there in the significantly growing bison herd that
we have.
* (1940)
In other words, I think it is appropriate for the
department to, when new trends are developing, with different producers on the
landscape, that we make it our business to use, where we have co‑operation
from an operator, an opportunity to gain some data, some experience. In this case, we have included in some
instances, in one instance, also a study of what precisely an operator is doing
with a small group of elk that he has on a premises which includes bison and
other nontraditional livestock.
We have no intention of any policy change in mind, but it
is helpful to me as Minister of Agriculture and helpful to the department to
have an understanding of how these operations operate and what in fact are, if
challenged or if the policy decision, if the whole question should be raised at
some point in the future, that we have some knowledge from an operation from
having reviewed or taken advantage of looking in, if you like, on how some of
these operators are working with these animals.
Ms. Wowchuk: I appreciate that answer from the
minister. I want to move onto the Soils
and Crops area. One of the areas that I
want to touch on in this area deals with stubble.
I would be prepared to pass a few sections. Just in the Animal Industry, and you see that
there is a reduction in Supplies and Services in Animal Industry and then you
go onto another area and you see a Supplies and Services reduction again. I wonder what is happening different in
Supplies and Services. Is there a
different way, something that is happening significantly in the way of
communication or with computers, or what is the reason that we have had a
reduction in that area? That is a fairly
substantial reduction of some $35,000.
Mr. Enns: Excuse me, I was momentarily distracted. The particular item on the‑‑
Ms. Wowchuk: We were talking about passing the Animal
Industry branch, and when you look under the Animal Industry branch under Other
Expenditures on page 49, Supplies and Services, I just wonder what is happening
that we have a‑‑I know it may not be a significant amount, but I am
wondering what is happening in differences in the operations. If we could answer it under Animal Industry
it would probably be the same answer for other departments as well.
Mr. Enns: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I am advised
that some of the specific reductions involve an $18,000 decrease in the
Manitoba Milk Recording Corporation's payment, a further $17,300 decrease as a
result of more in‑house printed forms, and at greater efficiencies in
monitoring our supplies. The member can
appreciate that under the restricted budget circumstances, operating within the
department throughout the department, managers have been requested and are in
fact looking very closely, not just at the big ticket items, but the host of
supplies that are involved in running today's offices.
The Acting Deputy
Chairperson (Mr. Rose): Item 4.(b) Animal
Industry (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,546,400‑‑pass; (2)
Other Expenditures $488,700‑‑pass.
4.(c) Veterinary Services (1) Salaries and Employee
Benefits $1,451,800‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $503,000‑‑pass;
(3) Grant Assistance $467,600‑‑pass.
4.(d) Soils and Crops (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits.
Mr. Enns: Perhaps I can just introduce Dr. Barry Todd
who is the Director of Soils and Crops branch, now located in Carman. It was my privilege just yesterday morning to
visit with Dr. Todd and his group in the facilities at Carman. It was an extremely interesting, worthwhile
staff visit. With that, we commend his
section of the Estimates to your consideration.
Ms. Wowchuk: I will begin by asking some questions about
the Crop Diversification Centres. When
we look at the department moving towards a new vision, we see that the main
centre, as the minister has indicated, is in the Carberry area. There are four satellite facilities: Portage, Melita, Roblin and Winkler
areas. I would want to know what is
happening‑‑are there specific crops that are being tested at each
of those areas, and also how those sites were chosen for the satellite
sites? There is no site in the Interlake
area, which is quite different, and there is not perhaps anything farther north. Are there plans to further extend these
sites? I guess, let us being with the
four sites and what is tested at them and why they were chosen in those
particular areas.
Mr. Enns: Well, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson,
essentially the main centre located at Carberry was a very welcome addition to
our overall research and development program that was essentially instituted by
the federal government. We are pleased
to say that certainly with the strong influence of the provincial department
and the province, we were able to include in that operation two satellite
operations at Roblin and Melita.
With respect to the reasoning for the siting of these
specific areas, although I do not pretend to have all the information as to
what all is anticipated in the overall thrust of these production centres, I
was involved in some of the initial discussions even in my portfolio of Natural
Resources. The very main portion of the
thrust is irrigation, and it is the need to find, continue to research the very
best information about the appropriate and judicious use of supplementary water
as supplied by irrigation.
The honourable member is well aware that this is a
sensitive area with respect to many Manitobans, who are always concerned about
how water is being used in terms of commercial operations.
Carberry is, of course, the centre of one of our major
potato growing areas and probably one of the areas that has some of the most
extensive irrigation, you know, in context with that potato industry that is in
that area. It is also the area where
there is a considerable amount of controversy.
It sits on the province's largest aquifer, the Assiniboine River
aquifer, and it is important from us for our province to fully understand the
hydraulics of water.
The kind of question that the honourable member for St.
Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) asked a little while ago, we can say with confidence how
much water can we permit or allow to be used, in this case not by hog farmers
but by potato growers, without doing a long‑term or permanent damage to
the aquifer; that would be taking away that natural resource from future
generations of young farmers for years to come down the line. So that was a principal reason for locating
in the area at Carberry.
* (1950)
The areas of the southwest, the Melita area, we have always
viewed that area in terms of soil make‑up, soil composition, of having a
potential future for the kind of cropping conditions that could employ the use
of supplemental water through irrigation, and it is traditionally one of our
more drought‑prone areas of the province with the water supply being of
concern. So that was the reason for the
satellite section to be set up there.
The Roblin area was another specific reason, and I am
looking to my crops director if he cannot confirm it.
We are engaged in some experimental irrigation work in that
area with effluent irrigation, which the members may be interested to
learn. That is again an area that
understandably attracts attention and one that for us to be able to speak
definitively about the impact that that has on the environment, the values that
has to cropping certain crops in that area, the long‑term effects that it
has on the natural landscape, was the specific reason we chose the Roblin area
for the other centre.
The centre will have as one of its main objectives to glean
the best possible information about how we can add value to our cropping
productions with irrigation, and how that impacts on the landscape and how we
can, with confidence, determine what our appropriate amounts of water to be
drawn from this are. This is an aquifer,
or ground water supplies and so forth.
Ms. Wowchuk: So the main focus of each of these centres,
Carberry, Portage, Melita, all of the centres there, is to test new crops and
to test how they would grow under irrigation and how we can expand the use of
irrigation to improve the amount of crop.
The focus of each of these centres is to test irrigation then.
Mr. Enns: Yes, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, the area
lends itself to a combination of both, to gather the kind of data that will
allow us to provide the kind of advice that producers rightly ask of us,
compared to what? Compared to dry land
operation? There will be research and
data collected on a field of potatoes under dry land conditions as compared to
a similar crop being grown under irrigation, and it very much includes forages
as well in this experimentation. The
member is right, we want to get more information.
Much of the information about irrigation regrettably dates
back to an era when there was very little known about what happens to land, to
soil when injudicious use of water is applied, leaching effects, saline salts
coming to the surface, the amounts, the types of water. Particularly if these questions are not
researched and answered, we allow practices to develop that can affect the‑‑not
in the best interests of the long‑term sustainability of the soil to
carry crop production in these cases.
So that is what we look for in that centre. It is a very welcome addition to the
agriculture scene in Manitoba, and although the principal contributor in terms
of capital is the federal government, under Dr. Todd's direction we are taking
maximum advantage of the situation by being very much involved in the program
development and in the direction that the research is taking place. It is certainly in our interest to do so.
Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, just while I have the
microphone for a moment, I am also delighted to announce that we have reorganized
within the department and in fact a formation of a new branch that combines the
Marketing and Farm Business Management aspects of the branch. The new director for that branch is Ms. Dori
Gingera who joins us at the table. Ms.
Gingera has considerable experience in the Department of Agriculture. She comes to this position most recently from
heading up as regional director one of the most‑‑well, I should not
say this‑‑all regions of Manitoba are interesting and challenging,
but certainly the central region with its emphasis, its concentration of value‑added
crops of the vegetable industry, of some of the finest traditional farm cereal
crops in the area, brings that background to her new position as director of
the Marketing and Farm Business Management, the new branch that has been put
together. That is the next item here,
and I offer to the committee members that we can switch both ways.
Ms. Wowchuk: Again, going back to the crop diversification
at Carberry and in the other areas, I take it then that there is also
monitoring done on the negative impacts that could be the result of irrigation
on the salinization and other effects.
Is that also being monitored, and if so is it too early in the program
to have any results of it?
Mr. Enns: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I am pleased
to have this opportunity just to provide a little broader description of what
is occurring and will be occurring at this centre in the near future. There will be, for instance, under a project
entitled Ground Water Protection and Agriculture Practices in Manitoba‑‑these
are just kind of general headings‑‑nitrogen fertilizer and
management on potatoes brought on by the Keystone Vegetable Producers'
Association.
We have other organizations that are partners with us in the
development of these programs.
Evaluation of an irrigation scheduling model for potatoes. That is being done in concert with the Soil
Sciences people at the University of Manitoba that we can develop a model for
potato irrigation. Fertilizer requirements
for sustainable production of potatoes grown under irrigation in Manitoba. Again, a project that is helped along and
monitored by the Soil Sciences people in Manitoba. With this kind of work the centre is
providing, I think, valuable opportunities for some of our professional people
in the academic community at the university to be involved along with our own
people in the department.
* (2000)
Water management and conservation is a concern that is
being sponsored in co‑operation with the Association of Irrigators in
Manitoba. Soil quality, water quality
and soil conservation‑‑a lot of the emphasis is on what irrigation
does to soil and how best we can conserve the water that we are putting on the
soil, time of application. What is
frequently misunderstood‑‑for instance, some of the best times to
irrigate is while it is raining, in terms of making sure that the available
water is being used for the intended purposes, to provide moisture to the
growing crop, not evaporating in 85 or 90 degree high winds and sunshine, where
only maybe 20 percent or 30 percent of the water that we are using actually is
going to help crop development.
These are just a little aside as to the kind of research
that is being done. Irrigation
sustainability‑‑and that is an important question about what is the
long‑term future about irrigation.
As I said earlier, there certainly have been some less than desirable
results, particularly in some of the southern jurisdictions in the United
States, where indiscriminate irrigation has been allowed to be proceeded with,
an issue that is topical and important to us and of political concern to us,
the entire question of monitoring the Assiniboine Delta Aquifer, Assiniboine
Delta River model, and there are some considerable amounts. The monitoring program, some $100,000 has been
established which means that hydraulic water engineers will, with precision,
monitor the effects of the aquifer taking X number of gallons of water out for
irrigation purposes, and over an extended period of time, a number of years I
would imagine, we will be able to say with some authority and integrity that
this happens if we do this.
So in the future when we in the Department of Agriculture
or in the department of Water Resources grant a would‑be potato producer
the permits to irrigate X number of acres of land in a given area, we can with
this kind of work say with confidence that the water is there, that the water
can be used at these levels, at these output levels in a sustainable manner; in
other words, that it will not impact the long‑term level or future of the
aquifer. That is what we have to get on
with doing in Manitoba, where we maximize our opportunities.
Nobody, least of all this minister, least of all my
government, wants to pursue economic development for economic development
sake. There is a charge against us that
we do develop economically and that is something that we are reminded of every
day in the House by opposition members and by the general public who are
concerned about the ability of governments to provide the social services that
we all require.
So this is the kind of work, in my judgment, that is
extremely necessary, that enables us to be able to, with confidence, talk about
expanding our potato production in this area or, a little while earlier, saying
we can expand hog production because we know that water is there in sufficient
quantities. We know that we can
institute by regulation. In this instance,
the regulation would be drawn up principally by our Soils and Crops branch that
spells out very clearly the kind of acceptable farm practice that will not do
long‑term or permanent injury or damage to our soil.
Ms. Wowchuk: Earlier in the day, the minister indicated
that in the Interlake area, there is a large water supply that could be
used. At that time, we were talking
about hog production, but there is a lot of water in the Interlake area. There is also a tremendous interest in forage
production in the Interlake. People
there have done a tremendous amount of work to try to find a market for alfalfa
pellets, and they have to some degree been successful on that.
I wonder if any consideration was given, when you were
choosing the sites for these research centres, whether any consideration was
given to establishing a site in the Interlake, because that is a different type
of area, a different growth area. I know
the minister is talking more about vegetable crops and diverse, various crops
that are more related to the southern part of the province, but I think we also
have to look at development in other areas.
I wonder‑‑as I say, the Interlake is a different land base,
a different type of area, but we do know that hay can grow quite well there‑‑whether
there was any consideration to setting up a satellite site in that area in
order to obtain a different database of information in the province.
Mr. Enns: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I accept that
advice. I think it is good advice. I think it is certainly in the interests of
the overall agricultural community to extend to as representative a base when
we are expending, as we are expending in this instance, some substantial public
dollars on research and development and to make that as representative of the
province as we can. Officials in the
department are hearing your request.
I would like to think that as we clearly get established
with the centre at Carberry and perhaps after some period of time with the‑‑gather
information in places like Roblin or Melita, I, quite frankly, do not see why we
cannot have a bit of a revolving of these satellites in different regions of
the province or an expansion of them. It
would depend on the resources that we have and the support that, in instances,
we continue to receive from our federal partner in this program.
But I certainly cannot argue against the soundness of the
advice that the member is providing. In
different regions and different areas there are, of course, different soil
conditions that lead to different cropping interests.
We just had, during the supper hour, a review of where we
are heading with some of our‑‑I digress for a moment‑‑with
where our safety programs are going, you know, the GRIP programs and the crop
insurance programs, and it is a concern that should be there for all of us,
these very substantial amounts of dollars that Canada and the provinces are
expending on supporting our grain farmers.
I certainly do not want to be misquoted.
They need our support while the grain prices continue to be where they
are at and where we are facing the competition of the American subsidized grain
and the European subsidized grain, but the end‑all kind of resolution
that we should be encouraging within the Department of Agriculture is to
steadily, not in an unplanned way, to examine any and all opportunities for
alternative forms of production.
I was delighted, just in the few hours, the short hour that
I spent with the Soils and Crops people in Carman the other morning, to hear of
the different little‑‑I think I made reference to different little
initiatives that are taking place. In
some cases they are very relatively small, little programs in horticulture or
in some other specialty area, but I certainly encourage the department that we
ought not to turn any of these programs aside.
They are all worthwhile, and collectively it is what, quite
frankly, has served Manitoba well. We
have ridden out better some of the difficulties than the province of
Saskatchewan, for instance, where we have one crop like wheat being sold
predominantly in the overall farm income.
Our producers, despite the fact that there may be setbacks in any one
sector at a given time, but the greater diversification, the wiser use of our
land base, we use our water correctly and we shelter our producers from price
collapses if we are so totally dependent on one or two agricultural
commodities. The more diversified our
base is, the less chance that they will collapse all at the same time, and in
fact the greater opportunity, the greater the resources that governments have
available to help that particular sector that may find itself in need in a
given situation.
* (2010)
So I would take that advice to heart and see whether we
cannot move or extend these satellite operations. I want a little commitment from the honourable
member for Swan River. If one shows up
next year and it is in the Interlake, then I want her to remember that it is on
her good advice that I put that satellite station in the great, grand, glorious
constituency of Lakeside, for instance, that deserves that kind of attention.
Ms. Wowchuk: Well, I can tell the minister if he puts a
matching one in Swan River constituency we will have no disagreement
whatsoever.
In seriousness, I am pleased that the minister would
consider that, and I think once you have collected the data that you need in a
particular area of the province, it would seem reasonable to move to other
areas of the province to collect the data and look at what crops can be
developed to allow for diversification and other opportunities for farmers
throughout the province.
The minister had indicated a couple of things. He said that the majority of the funding for
this program comes from the federal government.
The question I have, is this an ongoing funding from the federal
government? Also, how much money does
this program cost the province? How many
jobs are created as a result of it? Is
there additional permanent staff that is hired, or is it just part‑time
staff? What would we look at as staff
years or jobs created through this fund?
Mr. Enns: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I am advised
that all of the capital funding required in the project is provided by the
federal government. There is a 10‑year
agreement with respect to the sharing of operating costs of the centre which
total in the neighbourhood of $750,000 annually and are shared three ways, by
the federal government, the provincial government, and the industry producers,
principally the potato industry in this instance, but others as well that co‑operated.
In terms of job creation, from our perspective there are
not that many. We have drawn people from
different departments, Natural Resources, Water Resources, from Soils and
Crops, from Dr. Todd's shop for a total of about three additional staff and one
from Rural Development. What has
happened is we have contributed from Rural Development, from Natural Resources
three existing staff and created one additional new position for that centre.
The federal government, of course, has hired a centre
manager, a gentleman by the name of Peter Fehr, and a field supervisor and are
making arrangements for staffing the office.
The member will appreciate that this is still a very new centre that is
just getting around to being fully operational.
I do not believe that there will be a heavy, you know,
manpower component to this centre, but it involves, as I said in the brief
description of the programs, a lot of other people, whether it is from the Soil
Sciences branch, division of the Faculty of Agriculture at the University of
Manitoba, whether it involves the Association of Irrigators in Manitoba,
whether it involves the vegetable growers and so forth, and, of course, some of
the industry people who have a great interest in what is going on, people that
are producing, processing the potatoes, both at Portage, the McCain people and
the Nestle people at Carberry. There
will be some additional summer employment provided, and hopefully that will
occur this coming summer. I cannot give
you specific numbers‑‑I am advised by my deputy minister that most
of these projects in themselves, the ones that I earlier listed, will have some
employment opportunities in various facets of monitoring or actually some
physical field work involved in running the irrigation trials, setting up the
equipment and so forth.
I will be in a position‑‑we have no track
record to go on in terms of what was required last year. A year from now, I will be in a position to
provide more factual information. Ten
years from now, as I intend to be here, I will have a good 10‑year record
to give you as to how the centre operated, you see.
Ms. Wowchuk: I have not had an opportunity to visit the
centre. I hope to be able to do that
very soon, but if I had, I probably would not have to ask you some of these questions. I assume, as I listen to how the testing is
done, that test plots are on private land or that the centre does not own the
land, so then some of the farmers on whose land this is being done would also
be doing some of the work. Is that
accurate?
Mr. Enns: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, the member is
partly right. There is every intention
of conducting a lot of this work on privately owned land, but I am advised that
the centre did in fact include some land in the original establishment. Upwards to a half section of land is owned by
the centre, and it will also be the site for some specific testing being done
on the centre's land, on their own land.
So there will a combination of work being done and trials being
conducted and surveys and monitoring being done on both private and public
land.
I am further advised that we have a further access to land
that was owned by Agriculture Canada Research Station at Portage that will also
provide ready access by the centre to land that they have full and immediate
jurisdiction over to conduct different trials and tests.
Ms. Wowchuk: The minister also indicated that there was at
the present time a monitoring being done on the Assiniboine aquifer, and I
wonder how long that is going to run before results are available and when the
results of that monitoring will be available.
Mr. Enns: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I am advised
that the monitoring that is described in this program is‑‑there
will be a continual process, likely over the lifetime of the 10‑year
agreement. I am also advised that we
have of course, as one would expect, been involved in a considerable amount of
monitoring in that area in the past as a result of the demand for water for
irrigation purposes as well as for other proposals that from time to time have
come forward. It has been a target for
investigation and monitoring by the Water Resources branch of the Department of
Natural Resources for some number of years.
Ms. Wowchuk: Can the minister indicate whether the
department is involved in any other irrigation projects at the present time,
whether there are funds going into any other project and, if there are, which
projects are these?
* (2020)
Mr. Enns: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, yes, we are
involved with a group that refers to themselves as the Agassiz irrigation
association. This is a group that is in
the south‑central part of the province that essentially is looking and in
fact is involved in and engaged in the capturing of surface water in that area
by means of the construction of oversized dugouts, if I can use that term.