LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Monday, June 6, 1994

 

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

 

PRAYERS

 

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

 

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

 

ACCESS Program Funding

 

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Hickes).  It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

 

An Honourable Member:  Dispense.

 

Mr. Speaker:  Dispense.

 

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

 

WHEREAS under the ACCESS program hundreds of students from disadvantaged backgrounds have been able to get post‑secondary education and training; and

 

WHEREAS these students have gone on to successful careers in a variety of occupations, including nurses, teachers, social workers, engineers amongst others; and

 

WHEREAS the federal government has eliminated their support of the ACCESS program; and

 

WHEREAS the provincial government has cut support by 11 percent in 1993 and a further 20 percent in 1994; and

 

WHEREAS the enrollment has already dropped from over 900 to roughly 700 students due to previous cuts; and

 

WHEREAS the provincial government, in addition to cutting support for the ACCESS program by over $2 million in the current year, is also turning it into a student loans program which effectively dismantles the ACCESS program.

 

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly request the Minister of Education and Training (Mr. Manness) to consider restoring the funding to ACCESS program.

 

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Santos).  It complies with the privileges and the practices of this House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

 

An Honourable Member:  Dispense.

 

Mr. Speaker:  Dispense.

 

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

 

WHEREAS under the ACCESS program hundreds of students from disadvantaged backgrounds have been able to get post‑secondary education and training; and

 

WHEREAS these students have gone on to successful careers in a variety of occupations, including nurses, teachers, social workers, engineers amongst others; and

 

WHEREAS the federal government has eliminated their support of the ACCESS program; and

 

WHEREAS the provincial government has cut support by 11 percent in 1993 and a further 20 percent in 1994; and

 

WHEREAS the enrollment has already dropped from over 900 to roughly 700 students due to previous cuts; and

 

WHEREAS the provincial government, in addition to cutting support for the ACCESS program by over $2 million in the current year, is also turning it into a student loans program which effectively dismantles the ACCESS program.

 

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly request the Minister of Education and Training (Mr. Manness) to consider restoring the funding to ACCESS program.

 

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Martindale).  It complies with the privileges and the practices of this House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

 

An Honourable Member:  Dispense.

 

Mr. Speaker:  Dispense.

 

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

 

WHEREAS under the ACCESS program hundreds of students from disadvantaged backgrounds have been able to get post‑secondary education and training; and

 

WHEREAS these students have gone on to successful careers in a variety of occupations, including nurses, teachers, social workers, engineers amongst others; and

 

WHEREAS the federal government has eliminated their support of the ACCESS program; and

 

WHEREAS the provincial government has cut support by 11 percent in 1993 and a further 20 percent in 1994; and

 

WHEREAS the enrollment has already dropped from over 900 to roughly 700 students due to previous cuts; and

 

WHEREAS the provincial government, in addition to cutting support for the ACCESS program by over $2 million in the current year, is also turning it into a student loans program which effectively dismantles the ACCESS program.

 

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly request the Minister of Education and Training (Mr. Manness) to consider restoring the funding to ACCESS program.

 

* (1335)

 

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

 

Bill 13‑‑The Condominium Amendment Act

 

Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader):  Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Ducharme), that leave be given to introduce Bill 13, The Condominium Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur les condominiums, and that the same be now received and read a first time.

 

Motion agreed to.

 

Bill 14‑‑The Real Estate Brokers Amendment Act

 

Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader):  I move, Mr. Speaker, seconded by the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Ducharme), that leave be given to introduce Bill 14, The Real Estate Brokers Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur les courtiers en immeubles, and that the same be now received and read a first time.

 

Motion agreed to.

 

Bill 15‑‑The Law Society Amendment Act

 

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General):  Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), that leave be given to introduce Bill 15, The Law Society Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur la Société du Barreau, and that the same be now received and read a first time.

 

Motion agreed to.

 

Bill 16‑‑The Provincial Court Amendment Act

 

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General):  Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), that leave be given to introduce Bill 16, The Provincial Court Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur la Cour provinciale, and that the same now be received and read a first time.

 

          His Honour the Lieutenant‑Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House.  I would like to table the message.

 

Motion agreed to.

 

Bill 17‑‑The City of Winnipeg Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act

 

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Urban Affairs):  I move, seconded by the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Ducharme), that leave be given to introduce Bill 17, The City of Winnipeg Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur la Ville de Winnipeg et apportant des modifications corrélatives, and that the same be now received and read a first time.

 

Motion agreed to.

 

Bill 213‑‑The Immigration Consultants Registry Act

 

Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples):  Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), that leave be given to introduce Bill 213, The Immigration Consultants Registry Act (Loi sur l'inscription des conseillers en immigration), and that the same now be received and read a first time.

 

Motion presented.

 

Mr. Kowalski:  Mr. Speaker, we have seen in the past how immigrants to our province have been exploited by unscrupulous business people.  We believe that this bill, which creates a registry for people who hold themselves out as immigrant consultants, is one step towards protecting new Manitobans.  I recommend this piece of legislation to all members of this Legislature.

 

Motion agreed to.

 

* (1340)

 

Bill 208‑‑The Real Property Amendment Act

 

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg), that leave be given to introduce Bill 208, The Real Property Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur les biens réels, and that the same be now received and read a first time.

 

Motion presented.

 

Ms. Cerilli:  Mr. Speaker, this bill was originated when a constituent of mine came forward with a very unfair situation, and it is to deal with the situation when a homeowner is at risk for selling their property to someone who assumes their mortgage and then has the financial institution pursue them when the purchaser goes into arrears.

 

          It is a fair bill.  It will create some more equity in this area.  It is common sense and it is there to protect people from the powerful financial institutions who have tried to pursue original owners for outstanding payments when the homeowner who assumes their mortgage falls into arrears.

 

          I would ask all members to support this bill, and I look forward to the chance to debate it in the House.

 

Motion agreed to.

 

Bill 302‑‑The Manitoba Historical Society Incorporation Act

 

Mrs. Shirley Render (St. Vital):  Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer), that leave be given to introduce Bill 302, The Manitoba Historical Society Incorporation Act; Loi constituant la Société historique du Manitoba, and that the same be now received and read a first time.

 

Motion presented.

 

Mrs. Render:  Mr. Speaker, the society's original incorporating act was repealed in 1990, and the society is now asking that this act be passed to re‑establish its corporate status and to ensure that its decision making since the original act was repealed is valid and enforceable.

 

          I would urge that all honourable members support this bill.  Thank you.

 

Motion agreed to.

 

Introduction of Guests

 

Mr. Speaker:  Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the loge to my left, where we have with us this afternoon the Honourable Sandy Jolly, the Minister of Municipal Affairs for the Province of Nova Scotia.

 

          On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon, ma'am.

 

          Also with us this afternoon, I would like to draw the attention of honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us Mr. Jack Thompson and Mr. Paul Gauthier.  These gentlemen are veterans of the D‑Day invasion and were members of the Royal Winnipeg Rifles.

 

          On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon.

 

          Also with us this afternoon, we have 27 representatives of the Filipino community in Manitoba.  These visitors are under the direction of Mr. David Langtry.

 

          On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon.

 

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

 

Social Safety Net Reform

Manitoba Position

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.

 

          There are two major federal initiatives that are scheduled to bear fruit in terms of policy proposals by the federal government in early June.  One is, of course, to deal with the elimination of the GST.  The other proposal is to deal with the social policy initiatives in Canada and a revamping of the social policy programs in Canada.

 

          Mr. Speaker, today the Financial Post is quoting‑‑and both those initiatives have been delayed‑‑that there may be linkages between the GST and the social policy review, that there is a desire and a goal of the federal government to reduce social policy spending by some $1.5 billion and that this may be linked to the elimination of the GST; in other words, less money for the provinces and a greater flexibility in terms of taxes for the provinces.

 

          I would like to ask the First Minister if Manitoba is participating in any of those discussions with the federal government, or is the federal government initiating any of those discussions with the Province of Manitoba?

 

* (1345)

 

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, the member opposite raises a very valid and important issue.  The fact of the matter is most of the provinces in Canada were asked to participate in a conference on the social safety net review a couple of months ago‑‑all the provinces were, I should say.  Unfortunately, there was no position paper put forward by the federal government nor consultations that took place ahead of time that would have involved the provinces in the development of a strategy.  As a result, a number of the provinces decided not to participate in that.

 

          We were not one of the provinces because we do want to be co‑operative.  We do want to do the best that we can to participate with the federal government in seeking better answers to the funding of our very prized social safety net.  On the other hand, we certainly were concerned about the lack of a position or information to back up a proper discussion of the issue.

 

          With respect to the GST, my understanding is that the Ministers of Finance, the provincial Ministers of Finance, are awaiting the report of the federal committee that was struck under, I believe, Mr. Peterson, Liberal member from Ontario, to go across the country and hold discussions and listen to presentations, but we are not in a position to know anything about the interconnection between these two initiatives.  That is not something that has been shared with me or with my colleagues.

 

Goods and Services Tax

Manitoba Position

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance of Manitoba was quoted last week in the Chamber in a question posed by the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) as saying that the western Finance ministers had discussed the issue of changes in the GST and changes in the income tax system of Canada.

 

          Today, our Minister of Finance is quoted again in the Financial Post, saying that provincial goals include a major reform that would allow provinces to tax income directly, instead of collecting a percentage of the federal income tax, this in relationship to the discussions going on with the GST.

 

          I would ask the Minister of Finance, could he table Manitoba's proposal and its impact on the public of Manitoba of a proposal of this nature?

 

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance):  Mr. Speaker, this is an issue that has been on the agenda of Finance ministers certainly for several months, if not several years, in terms of some tax reform at the provincial and national level.

 

          One of the initiatives has been that instead of provincial governments charging a tax on tax, which is currently the case with our provincial income taxes, provincial governments, I believe, if not in total unanimity, most provinces across Canada are agreeing that a fairer process would be a tax on income, as is the case with the federal tax.  It would allow provincial governments to have some input into tax policy.  It would also make it very transparent in terms of how those taxes are being paid, whom they are being paid to, and obviously, enhance accountability for both levels of government.

 

          So that is an initiative that has been consistent, has been on the table for many months, Mr. Speaker, and when I responded to the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), we indicated that the western provinces and the Territories and Yukon were going to this meeting very anxious to see the Commons committee report on the GST.

 

          Provinces for many months and many years have had many tax issues on the table with the federal government, and we are saying to our federal government that just because they made an election promise on one particular issue, the time has come for them to address all of the tax issues that provinces are promoting, and tax on income is certainly one of them.

 

Mr. Doer:  I would thank the Minister of Finance for his answer.

 

          Mr. Speaker, this is a major issue for all Manitobans and for all members of this Chamber.  We have the GST.  We have a proposed alternative to the GST that the Commons committee is looking at, a kind of a two‑tier, value‑added tax.  There are different proposals in terms of its impact on provinces, harmonization, identity of the tax, et cetera.  The Minister of Finance has indicated that they clearly want to change the way in which the income tax is set up.

 

          I was wondering, could the Minister of Finance table that position and its impact on Manitobans?  It is a very, very important issue.  It is at a very important time in our history dealing with some of these very unfair taxes that have developed in Canada.  No one disputes the fact that some of the loopholes on page 1 of the income tax system, as the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) identified last week, should be eliminated, that trust funds for a few families should be eliminated, Mr. Speaker.

 

          We welcome that, but we would certainly want to see‑‑and could the First Minister table what the Manitoba proposal is that the Minister of Finance was just talking about?

 

* (1350)

 

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, this is an issue that has been dealt with not only by Finance ministers, but by First Ministers for more than a decade.  The position of the Manitoba government is this is not intended to raise any additional revenue for our government.  It is intended to be revenue neutral, but to make the tax system more simplified in order to be able to deal directly with the kinds of changes that we want to bring into the system for the benefit of Manitobans.

 

          I might say that this goes back a long way.  The predecessor administration under Mr. Pawley brought in a 2 percent tax on net income, and they had to work through a very convoluted system in order to impose that additional tax load.  We, in a measure that was supported by New Democrats in this House in 1989, brought in the richest system of tax credits for taxpayers with dependants and families in this province and had to go through a very convoluted system in order to introduce that because of the way the tax system works, where we tax on top of tax instead of directly.

 

          So in all these circumstances, it has been the position of the provinces, by and large, of all political stripes that there would be a great desire and a great benefit to simplifying the system and allowing our income tax to be direct, as a tax on income as opposed to a tax on federal tax and then have to put in a convoluted additional set of forms in order to give back additional generous benefits to our Manitoba taxpayers.

 

          It is not something that is new.  It is not something that is intended to generate additional revenue.  It is something that is intended to be helpful to the Manitoba taxpayer in the course of any changes that we bring in.

 

Health Care System

Regional Boundaries

 

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):  Mr. Speaker, I have before me a document that indicates that the Department of Health has recommended that the province outside of Winnipeg be organized into eight health care regions.

 

          Can the minister advise the House as to whether or not the eight districts have been finalized and what the boundaries are of those particular districts?

 

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, as a result of the health board's recommendation for eight regions in Manitoba, there is now an appeal process underway.  When we have the results of the deliberations of the health board, we will be able to announce the final number of regions and what the boundaries will be.

 

Mr. Chomiak:  Mr. Speaker, can the minister indicate what the effects of the new MMA agreement and the physician resources and the physician allocation are with respect to the funding of those particular health regions?

 

Mr. McCrae:  Through our phased approach to health reform, answers to the kinds of questions the honourable member is raising today will flow through that mechanism of building these associations and building the governance models and the funding models for them.  The answer will be forthcoming from the bottom up.

 

Mr. Chomiak:  Mr. Speaker, this is my final supplementary.

 

          It is clear that one of the major failings of the government's health reform has been lack of consultation and lack of input from the public.  The minister indicated that there was an appeal process in place to deal with these eight regions and these eight districts.

 

          Can the minister indicate what process is in place and how the average Manitoban, who has had no input into the minister's health reform, can actually have some input into this decision and other decisions that are being made?

 

Mr. McCrae:  Mr. Speaker, the honourable member became somewhat combative in his last question.  I need only remind him of the approach used in other provinces in this country where, by the stroke of a pen, governments reduced substantially the number of hospital boards in existence and in Saskatchewan, for example, replaced hospital boards with their own appointees.

 

          That is not the approach being used in Manitoba.  We are using a more phased and consultative approach.  Indeed, Mr. Speaker, there have been some 13,000 Manitobans involved in the process of renewal of our health care system over the last few years.  That is a lot of Manitobans.  Our process has been sometimes criticized as being too consultative.  I will accept that criticism, but I will not accept the criticism of the honourable member that we are not consultative enough.

 

* (1355)

 

The Winnipeg Jets

Provincial Auditor's Report

 

Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance.

 

          We have been advised by the Provincial Auditor's office that either late Friday or early this morning, the Auditor's office forwarded to the Minister of Finance a calculation of the losses which the Province of Manitoba was responsible for as a result of the operations of the Winnipeg Jets Hockey Club.  That report was forthcoming from Public Accounts Committee.

 

          Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister of Finance, firstly, if he is prepared to table the Auditor's report in the Legislature today and, secondly, if not, will he advise members of this House as to the Auditor's projection of losses for this year and if she gave the opinion on future years of losses that the province is responsible for as a result of the Winnipeg Jets?

 

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance):  Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the second opposition party is correct.  I, along with my colleague the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey), received a copy of the Auditor's report late Friday.  I had an opportunity this morning to go through it.

 

          The Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism is away attending interprovincial trade barrier discussions.  I will be talking to him either today or tomorrow.  It is our intention to release this report as soon as possible.  Certainly this week it will be released.

 

          It was discussed, as the member indicated, at Public Accounts a couple of weeks ago, and it is my intention to release it as soon as possible, as soon as I have had an opportunity to discuss it with my colleague and to do a thorough review.  So it will be released this week, Mr. Speaker.

 

Mr. Edwards:  Mr. Speaker, I am sure all honourable members look forward to receiving a copy of that report.

 

          My supplementary for the Minister of Finance:  Given that when the City of Winnipeg released its budget forecast for losses it was responsible for, when they came up with those opinions, which set it at $11.5 million for 1994 and $17 million for 1995, the government, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) in particular, was highly critical of those.

 

          Mr. Speaker, can the minister indicate today whether or not the Auditor's report indicates that the city's projections, whether for the 1994 or 1995 year were, in fact, incorrect?  Given that the Premier has gone on the record as critical of these budgetary estimates, what does the Provincial Auditor say?

 

Mr. Stefanson:  Mr. Speaker, I really think it will be appropriate to wait until that report is, in fact, tabled.  All members of this Assembly will then have an opportunity to review it, to ask questions at that time and to offer comments, and I would be more than prepared to deal with any aspects of it in great detail at that point in time.

 

          It is premature for me to start discussing a report that has not been tabled to all members of the Assembly, and I look forward to either having questions here or ultimately back at Public Accounts on this issue when the report is, in fact, tabled.

 

Burns Committee

Report Tabling Request

 

Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Finally, for the Premier, Mr. Speaker, the Burns committee, as all members are aware, has now sat and met two months in excess of what their original timetable was, and while, of course, we all want the result to be a thorough one and give them the opportunity to make all of the investigations they deem appropriate, we are now in the month of June.

 

          June 30 is the deadline under the agreement the Premier signed back in 1991.  When can members and the citizens of the province expect a report of the Burns committee?

 

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, the member answered his own question when he said that we all want the information and the recommendations to be thorough and to be ones that can be acted upon to the benefit of the people of Manitoba.  It is for that reason that I do not believe it is appropriate for us to tell the committee that they must give us any report if they do not have an answer that they believe is satisfactory and a plan that they believe we can act upon.

 

          I believe it is up to us to give them the time that is necessary to try and put together a proposal that we could act upon.  My understanding is that they have agreement from Mr. Shenkarow to waive the June 30 deadline, and so, under those circumstances, obviously the pressure becomes less to deal with the issue within the next 30 days.

 

* (1400)

 

CN Rail/CP Rail Merger

Impact on Manitoba

 

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona):  Mr. Speaker, during the last federal election, the federal Liberals spoke of renewing our infrastructure, improving our transportation system, reducing input costs to make farming more viable and committing millions of tonnes of grain to the Port of Churchill.  The Liberals claimed that they would follow a different path from the Conservatives.

 

          Since then, they have supported more cuts to VIA Rail, the merger of CNR and CPR lines east of Winnipeg, and now are following the same path as the former government.  The now federal Minister of Transportation says that our whole transportation system is overbuilt and intends to eliminate $1.6 billion of support.

 

          My question is for the Minister of Highways and Transportation.  What will happen to the prairie provinces consultation report, and will it include what the impact of the elimination of these subsidies will have on Manitoba taxpayers, the producers and the communities involved?

 

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation):  Mr. Speaker, the member rambled on to some extent about the federal Liberal government, and I cannot answer for the federal Liberal government.  They may do some things that will not be very helpful for us in western Canada, particularly Manitoba, and, in fact, we are still waiting for the million tonnes to be announced to go through Churchill which was very clearly spelled out in the red book as an objective of particularly the Manitoba M.P.s.

 

          Mr. Speaker, I believe the member is referring to a study that we have commissioned of the three prairie provinces to look at the CN‑CP amalgamation or potential amalgamation east of Winnipeg.  We have asked them to look at a wide variety of issues as to the impact that this amalgamation might have on Manitoba and particularly on the effect on Winnipeg as a hub of the rail transportation industry.

 

Grain Transportation Subsidies

 

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona):  Mr. Speaker, given that the federal Liberal Minister of Transport is now talking about the elimination of some $590 million in grain transportation subsidies, what plans does this government have in place to protect Manitoba producers?

 

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation):  Mr. Speaker, did I understand the member to say we should accept the offload of that sort of decision by the federal government?  That is an astounding request.

 

          Mr. Speaker, over some time, we have had discussions.  I can assure the member we will not accept that kind of offload.  We have had discussions with the grain industry, with the farmers, over the last three or four years as to how that subsidy could be paid in a more efficient manner, and that is all that is on the agenda as far as we are concerned.

 

Consultations

 

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona):  My final supplementary is to the same minister.

 

          Now that Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta have joined forces to study the impact of the proposed merger and have hired a consulting firm, can this minister tell us why it is only the shippers who are going to be consulted?  Why have we not put in place the opportunity for consultation with rural municipalities and the public at large, and where will these public hearings be held that only shippers are currently involved in?

 

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation):  Mr. Speaker, we are looking for direct impact if the amalgamation is proposed.  If it is proposed, there will be‑‑I think a competition bureau of the federal government will review it, and then the National Transportation Agency will be holding hearings.

 

          We have requested to the federal government, if they go that far, that the National Transportation Agency will hold hearings particularly across western Canada, but I would imagine all of Canada, and that will follow up if the federal government accepts that merger proposal, when and if it shows up.

 

Manitoba Youth Centre

Overcrowding

 

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns):  My question is to the Minister of Justice.

 

          At the summit on youth crime and violence held on December 4, a Crown attorney advised the participants that the Manitoba Youth Centre had capacity for 150 youth, but that on the day before, there were 201 youth housed at that facility.  I will never forget the reaction of participants to that announcement.

 

          Mr. Speaker, my question to the minister:  Would she confirm that there is an overcrowding problem at the Manitoba Youth Centre?

 

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General):  Mr. Speaker, I can say to the member that at times, there are people within the Youth Centre of over 200.  However, within the Youth Centre, the Youth Centre has been able to make arrangements to deal with this.  The Youth Centre has extra staffing, and we also have been double‑bunking the young people.

 

Mr. Mackintosh:  I understand there may be some triple‑bunking there.

 

          Given that last week in an institution built and staffed for 150 people there were 230 youth, would this minister‑‑that is an increase, by the way, of 15 percent in just six months‑‑advise this House what security risk this poses to Manitobans, including those in the facility?

 

Mrs. Vodrey:  Mr. Speaker, let me start by saying that I do not confirm the member's numbers.  As a matter of fact, I believe the member's numbers are inaccurate.  I am aware of how he tried to get those numbers, and I believe the individual who gave the numbers to him was not accurate in that count.  So first of all, I do not confirm the numbers.

 

          Mr. Speaker, this brings us right back to where we always are with the NDP‑‑where we always are.  The NDP want to be lenient with offenders.  They do not want to do anything about offenders.  They have made that clear, but the people of Manitoba do not feel that way.

 

Swampy Cree Tribal Council

Negotiations

 

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas):  Mr. Speaker, the issue of health care reform has been around here for over two years now.  Much has been debated during that time with respect to cutting back on programs and services, layoffs, bed closures and so on.

 

          One area of discussion which has clearly been absent in this debate is how aboriginal people are being affected negatively by this reform process, in spite of numerous representations by those groups, such as Swampy Cree Tribal Council.

 

          Sadly, I have to say that the impression I get from this lack of mention of aboriginal people in this debate is that aboriginal people simply do not matter, even though they are citizens and living around those areas where this reform process is taking place.

 

          My question is to the Minister of Health.

 

          Could the Minister of Health advise this House why negotiations have broken down between himself and the Swampy Cree Tribal Council with respect to the 1964 agreement?

 

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, I profoundly disagree with the honourable member when he says aboriginal people do not matter.  Perhaps he and his caucus believe that, but I and my caucus do not believe that.

 

          In fact, when it comes to aboriginal issues, I would be happy to compare the record of this administration with the record of the previous one any day of the week, any time, with the honourable member here or in his home community.  The record of the previous government with respect to aboriginal Canadians, aboriginal Manitobans, was disgraceful, and the honourable member shows a lot of gall to rise in his place today to make such a comment.