LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Monday, June 27, 1994

The House met at 8 p.m.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

(continued)

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

(Concurrent Sections)

SENIORS DIRECTORATE

Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Seniors Directorate.

Does the honourable Minister responsible for the Seniors Directorate have an opening statement?

Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister responsible for Seniors): Absolutely. I am pleased to be able to present the '94‑95 budget Estimates for the Seniors Directorate.

During Seniors Month, I participated in the celebration of outlining the directorate's activities for the past fiscal year and those planned for the next, so I am going to give you an overall.

Seniors play an important role in our society now and, as their numbers increase, will play an even greater one in the future.

I consider it a privilege to be Minister responsible for Seniors. I view my own role as one of enhancing the quality of life of older adults in Manitoba. I am aided immeasurably in this task by the staff at the Seniors Directorate, which promotes the interests of seniors within government and works to ensure that policies and programs remain sensitive to the needs and concerns of seniors.

The directorate gathers information regarding seniors needs and concerns by several means, largely, of course, from seniors themselves. For instance, the directorate meets on an ongoing basis with community groups to identify concerns and issues relating to seniors and discusses such issues as elderly abuse, housing and safety.

Outreach staff continue to provide support to seniors and seniors organizations in rural and northern Manitoba. Outreach takes the form of educational workshops, information, referral and consultation services.

As a result of their involvement, staff have identified issues and worked toward resolution in their respective areas.

Another way information is communicated to the directorate is through the toll‑free Seniors Information Line, a central source of contact for seniors across the province. This information line, which has been in existence since 1989, provides a vital link between the Seniors Directorate and other government departments and agencies.

It is well used. For instance, in 1993, the directorate received 1,650 calls from Manitobans regarding seniors issues. Often these inquiries are for further investigation by the directorate on issues important to seniors, such as housing, health, income security and transportation, to name a few. In addition to addressing issues and concern, this line ensures that seniors receive good service.

Part of that service commitment is also met by the recent distribution of information booklets developed also by our directorate. Among these are the Manitoba Seniors Directorate Information Guide, Questions to Ask Your Doctor and Pharmacist on Taking Medication, and the Seniors Emergency Preparedness brochure.

On the difficult subject of elderly abuse, we have provided just recently information to professional service providers and seniors. The directorate continues to distribute Abuse of the Elderly, a guide for the development of protocals. The financial abuse video, Standing up for Yourself, with the three accompanying booklets, What is Power of Attorney?, How to Recognize and Avoid Financial Abuse and Home Repair and Door‑to‑Door Sales.

The directorate develops other resources as the need arises. We maintain regular contact with other provincial and territorial Seniors Directorates as well as the federal Seniors Secretariat in order to share their information and knowledge of seniors issues with our counterparts across Canada.

Just briefly, I will review what we will be doing in '93‑94. I have listed the ongoing activities of the Seniors Directorate. I would also like to tell you about the specific activities undertaken in the past year.

In '93‑94 the directorate distributed to seniors the Emergency Preparedness brochure province‑wide. The brochure provides practical advice from experts on how to prepare in advance for emergency situations and suggests appropriate measures to take when they occur.

So that more Manitoba seniors have access to the directorate's resources, five brochures were translated into Saulteaux and Cree languages. In June '93, during Seniors Month, the directorate held special days in Russell, Carberry, Gimli and Winnipeg.

Directorate staff also participated in the planning committee for the Alternatives for the '90s to End Abuse conference held in October '93 in Winnipeg. One full day of that conference was devoted to issues concerning elderly abuse. In 1993, our directorate's video on financial abuse was selected for recognition in the education/training category for Manitoba's Blizzard awards. I am proud to say that the video also won a second place Silver Screen award for outstanding achievement in the education category. This was conferred at the 26th United States International Film and Video Festival screenings and awards presentation in June '93 in Chicago.

Another video called Designing for People, not Prizes was developed recently by the Manitoba Advisory Committee on Seniors Housing. My staff played an active role in the development of this video by working closely with seniors' representatives and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation. I am pleased that my department and the Department of Housing were able to contribute financially, and they will be working with CMHC to distribute it to seniors groups throughout Manitoba. Committee members hope that the video will be useful as an educational tool for groups who are planning to develop or renovate multiunit housing projects for seniors. I would advise the members, if they have not seen this video, to look at it. It is a very, very good and enlightening video.

As part of our ongoing work in the area of elderly abuse, we distributed the Abuse of the Elderly: A guide for the development of protocols, to service providers throughout the province in the fall of '93. Those again who have not received that guide should ask for it. It has been very well recognized. As a matter of fact, I believe that another couple of provinces across Canada are now looking at our guide and will probably be using it when they develop theirs.

The guide provides practical assistance in identifying and responding to incidents of elderly abuse throughout the province. With this tool we hope institutions, agencies, organizations and police will be encouraged to implement policies and procedures for dealing with the abuse of the elderly. On this same subject, we also explored the use of the multidisciplines area team concept to address elderly abuse in Manitoba.

Situations of abuse are often complex and go beyond the scope of any one department or agency to provide solutions. This year, the director established an interdepartmental working group to develop a resource manual for professionals. This manual will help make them organize and run the same similar team to deal with complex situations of abuse. The manual was sent to several organizations for consultations and, as named, The Abuse of the Elderly, A Manual for the Development of Multidisciplinary Teams, has been printed and is being distributed.

Our staff will work with communities to establish these teams and will be available to provide education and support. As you can see, '93‑94 was a very full year; '94‑95 also will be. Some of the initiatives for '94‑95, as I just mentioned, we did distribute The Abuse of the Elderly, A Manual for the Development of these Teams, and helped communities establish these teams.

Caregiver stress is another area of ongoing concern. One of our initiatives in the coming year is to work in partnership with the community and the private sector to explore options providing information and support to the informal caregivers. Since we feel we must use many different vehicles of communication to reach Manitoba seniors, we will launch this year a seniors' biannual newsletter.

* (2010)

It will provide factual information on government services and programs and advise seniors how to access them. This is the result, as the questions on my column that we write bimonthly, the publication, Seniors Today. I am optimistic the newsletter will be equally effective when we send it out.

Seniors are important members. We all know they are important members, probably the most important members of family. In celebration of International Year of the Family, we are working on a number of projects revolving around this theme. For example, a series of posters about seniors in positive family situations was developed with the Manitoba Council on Aging.

We are also working with the Seniors Today newspaper on a writing contest for seniors, inviting individual stories about the good old days.

Also, the directorate has worked closely with the seniors community to plan special events in Winnipeg and, of course, tomorrow in Killarney to recognize the contributions of seniors. I am proud to say that the Winnipeg celebration was again a success. I am sure the event in Killarney will be terrific as well.

As you are aware, the Council on Aging has begun reporting to this Minister responsible for Seniors. I view this as a very positive move. A direct link between the minister and council will be re‑established, as was originally intended in 1980 when it was originally set up by the Honourable Mr. Sherman. It was originally intended to work on that basis.

Since the council reaches many seniors, I will hear first‑hand the issues and concerns. I can inform the members that already I have met with the group three times‑‑two informal and I attended their last board meeting.

This move ensures that the seniors advice, experience and knowledge is available to government in formulating policies and programs. Seniors will have direct input on the issues that affect them and, of course, future generations.

The council and the Seniors Directorate will be able to address the needs, concerns and issues of aging in a collaborative way that will benefit our community.

In closing, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I believe that the Seniors Directorate will continue to play an important role in meeting the needs of Manitoba seniors. We will continue to actively seek the involvement of seniors and now the Council on Aging, members of the community at large and the private sector.

We honour the contributions seniors have made and continue to make to the quality of life in this province. We are very aware of the fact that seniors issues affect us all. How we work with communities to resolve issues such as housing, transportation, health and elderly abuse will determine the kind of Manitoba we will all live in.

I can tell you that on behalf of my staff, to let the people know on behalf of the staff of all three plus my director, we are committed to a positive future. That includes a healthy and harmonious society.

I thank you for the opportunity of giving you these remarks.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the minister for those opening remarks.

Does the critic for the official opposition party, the honourable member for Broadway, have an opening statement?

Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): If you remember the movie Student Prince with Edmund Purdom as the star, there were soldiers, cadets who were singing a song.

An Honourable Member: Why do you not sing us a song right now?

Mr. Santos: Oh, thank you. I am just waiting for that invitation.

I would like to repeat the song he sang and then to remind us about the importance of those subjects that they talk about in this.

Okay, it is the song they sang in the Student Prince.

Latin song was sung.

Nobody understood that because that is in Latin, but let me translate‑‑

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. Just one minute. Could I ask the honourable member to give us a translation on that? Go ahead.

Mr. Santos: I will.

The song is basically saying, let us enjoy life while we are young, for after the pleasures of youth and the tiresomeness of old age, we will still be on this Earth. That is what the song was saying.

I am saying that life is too valuable. The pleasures of life are most enjoyable when you are still young, but being young is not merely a matter of age; it is not merely the number of years. It is your attitude towards life.

I would like to begin with that note about life. It is life, not years, that count in our life, but when you are already old or middle aged, you should be careful about getting your partners in life. I remember a story about an older man who got his wife, a young woman, and, you know, on the wedding night the husband died after the wedding. The widow was explaining to those who attended the funeral, how did your husband die? She said, well, my husband came and then he went.

An Honourable Member: Is he going to translate that?

Mr. Santos: I do not want to translate any more. That is all the widow said.

It is very important, therefore, just to be careful about our own life. When we get old, men usually mellow down with age, and Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes made this impressive statement about people: Men‑‑and this, of course, includes women‑‑like peaches and pears, they grow sweet a little, they grow sweet a little before they begin to decay.

So we will become generous and good generally in old age, because we have no longer any way, any strength to confront people, so I think we should be very co‑operative in our relationship with other persons, even those in the opposition, even anybody, even those who hate us, even those who dislike us. There are people who dislike other people‑‑

An Honourable Member: I just like some people better than others.

Mr. Santos: Yes, but regardless, I think we should adopt that kind of attitude, because sometimes they say, old people, they object too much, they consult too much, they are seldom adventurous and they repent too soon. That is the quality that we should avoid.

As we grow older, we grow in wisdom. It is not in length of days but it is in understanding that we have to develop in old age. We should not worry about too many things. You know, Bill Cosby said‑‑

An Honourable Member: On his 50th?

Mr. Santos: Yes, he said it in 1987.

An Honourable Member: When he was 50 years old.

Mr. Santos: Yes, he said, I do not worry about senility because my grandfather told me not to worry about senility because when it hits you, you will not even know about it.

But nobody loves life like an old man, as long as he had lived his life fruitfully and enjoyed it. I think just living is good in itself, regardless of the condition that you sometimes find yourself in. There are many people who say they are fed up with life because they have too much pain, too many problems they cannot solve. I think otherwise. I think, regardless of all the vicissitudes of life, living in itself is a blessing. I still want to live regardless of whether I am suffering pain every day. Because pain has some curative spirit, I would say, to the soul of man.

When we are young, we always say, when you commit adultery, it is a sin. But when you are already old, even adultery becomes a miracle.

An Honourable Member: A miracle?

* (2020)

Mr. Santos: Yes, if you can do it. As we grow older, it is my feeling that we should become‑‑I said it before, you should become kind and nice and gentlemanly, but sometimes the occasion demands that you become a radical also. I have a quotation here from Margaret Laurence. I would like to quote this in full: It is my feeling that as we grow older, we should become not less radical but more so, in a willingness to struggle for those things in which we passionately believe. Social activism and the struggle for social justice are often thought of as natural activities of the young but not of the middle aged or the elderly. In fact, I do not think it was ever true.

So if you believe passionately in certain ideas in life, you should fight for those ideas even in old age.

There might be a little bit more diplomacy because you have lots of experience to draw from, but still you have to fight for the ideas that you passionately believe in, and I accept that opinion. Of course, the old have much wisdom to drawn upon, and they can do it with effectiveness and with understanding and with consideration for other people.

I would like to talk in a more serious vein, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, about health care concerns. Next to health, of course, and related to it are the diets that we indulge in, the food intake we have, our housing needs, housing concerns and when retirement comes, problems related to retirement, like pension and lack of money. Then I want to conclude about our duty primarily to ourselves.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: I would just like to inform the member he does only have 30 minutes, and you have already used 10.

Mr. Santos: I will condense it in 30 minutes.

Health is, of course, a value that we should be aware is very important in our life. You see, health according to Franklin Adams is the thing that makes you feel that now is the best time of the year. I think that is a good description of a healthy person. When you feel that now is the best time of the year, you are at the peak of your health.

However, when health is absent in your life, everything seems to be meaningless. Wisdom no longer reveals itself. Art cannot manifest itself. Wealth becomes useless. You know those people who are wallowing in wealth, if they are in pain and unhealthy, they are willing to give everything they have to gain back their health, but, of course, it is too late. So we have to take care of ourselves.

It is like we should take care of the things that we eat, and we should listen to advice because they are changing things in our modern day world that we should be aware of. Too many people are suffering from diseases in old age. I happen to believe, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that this is partly or primarily their own doing. I say so because of my observation.

(Mr. Bob Rose, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair)

There are people who, for example, have been hooked to smoking, and they already know from beginning to end all the consequences, the strain of bad consequences flowing from that habit, but they still do it. They will go to that room there and puff themselves up, yes, in that room, and they know fully well all the outcomes that will flow from the thing that they do. So in old age, when they have difficulty breathing, when they have high blood pressure, when they have arthritis, when they have all kinds of inconveniences in their life, I say they have contributed to their own health condition.

Now I said our diet is related to the kind of condition that we have, the health problem that we experience in ourselves. I have some information about diets and things like that. We should be selective in the food that we eat. Mostly, we should select a whole food, wholesome vegetables and fruits, especially olives. We should avoid heavy‑‑

An Honourable Member: Is that the responsibility of the minister?

Mr. Santos: No, no. I am talking about the seniors‑‑in general, those who will read all these things that we have been talking about, that they can profit by.

Sometimes the costs of our own misfortune is lack of information, lack of knowledge about consequences.

The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Rose): Order, please. Could the honourable member direct his comments through the microphone? Otherwise, Hansard would not be able to record all of these remarks, and for the Chair as well, please.

Mr. Santos: Thank you. So we should be selective in the things that we eat, in servings: general servings of fruits and vegetables, grains and legumes, fibres, minerals, legumes, vegetables, minerals, avoiding such things like salt and sugar.

An Honourable Member: But salt is tasty.

Mr. Santos: Of course, of course. Mostly those things in life that are pleasurable shorten your life.

An Honourable Member: Well, not everything.

Mr. Santos: Most, I said. I am not saying everything. For example, cream and cakes.

An Honourable Member: Cakes, ooh! Cheese cake?

Mr. Santos: Yes, cheese cake, ooh!

An Honourable Member: Red wine? What about red wine?

Mr. Santos: Wine, there is some research in France about wine drinking. You know, the French people, they hardly drink water. Whenever they eat at the table, they have wine, but they found that, generally speaking, they live longer than Americans, than Canadians. I do not know if it is because of the wine because [interjection]‑‑French wine, it might be one of the causes, but they also eat lots of fruits and vegetables, and I think there is some kind of merging here of benefits from the kind of food that they eat.

It is also important that we exercise. It is not just eating, because when we have food intake, we imbibe, of course, these minerals and vitamins and the things that our body needs, but we have to burn these things. [interjection] Yes. And, you know, the minister, I heard him saying that he jogged too much today. This is good for himself, I would say, but remember‑‑

An Honourable Member: For his age. Is that what you are saying?

Mr. Santos: For himself.

An Honourable Member: Oh, not for his age, though?

Mr. Santos: No, no. Age, I am saying, is not a matter of years. It is a matter of how you feel.

The minister must be careful again. I have to caution him, because the inventor of jogging, his name is, I think, Fixx.

* (2030)

An Honourable Member: No, he died of a heart attack.

Mr. Santos: No, whatever he died of, he died of jogging. He was jogging.

An Honourable Member: Yes, but he was 300 pounds before he started jogging. He smoked a pack or two packs a day.

Mr. Santos: Yes, so you can overdo it, and if you do, you are risking your own health and even your life.

An Honourable Member: It is like everything else. You should not overdo it, as you told us at the start of your speech.

Mr. Santos: Yes, moderation is a good rule in life, moderation in everything. If you are moderate in your ideology, nobody can tell whether you are an extreme left or an extreme right. If you are moderate in your food intake, your body will not be overburdened. If you are moderate in drinking or whatever it is that you enjoy, then you enjoy it to the fullest.

Do you not know that, if we drink too much, we have a hangover; we cannot even wake up the next morning. It is terrible. Even with eating, if you overeat, you feel very uncomfortable. So moderation is a good virtue to develop in life.

I said I am talking about housing also. I have some housing problems. These are problems, real ones, of our senior citizens.

An Honourable Member: There is one of our seniors that just walked in.

Mr. Santos: A senior is walking in now. [interjection] I did not say anything dirty, no. They were all clean words that I used.

(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)

This is housing, honourable minister, and this concerns real people this time. I had constituent calls‑‑I would like to narrate and ask for advice. I have a senior citizen‑‑not one, but at least three of them, who talked to me about the same problem. Obviously, I have to bring it up as their spokesman.

She was telling me and he was telling me‑‑it was both a man and a woman‑‑that a Housing representative or some worker with the Housing department had informed them that they were going to visit their rooms frequently and regularly, because they want to know what is going on inside. They feel that it invades their privacy and their independent life. I tend to agree with the seniors.

Mr. Minister, an immense domicile is placed up above. It is a sacred place. He must have the comfort and security and privacy that no one should invade without his consent or her consent. If this becomes a rule and a regulation, we are becoming or we are opening the door of a police state where representatives of government and state are inspecting what we do.

I think how a man or a woman behaves inside their suite, inside their home, is their own concern. We should respect that. We feel a little bit insecure if there is always someone snooping around, looking at our behaviour, what we do, how we dress during the summer, in the heat waves, especially. I can take off my clothes and wear nothing as long as I lock all the doors and all the windows. Who should be concerned about that?

I am saying we should respect the privacy of senior citizens and not insist, without their consent, on this regularity of inspection.

I also have specific cases of rent increases that were, to my mind, unreasonable. For example, let me cite specific statistics here. This resident's rent was $205. I will not say who they are or where they live because I want to preserve confidentiality, but these are real people. His rent was $205. It was increased to $286. We can compute that if you wish, and I can easily find out the percentage increase, $205 to $286, the difference will be‑‑[interjection] Yes, to me, it is unreasonable. That is one case.

Another case is this one, $205, and it is increased to $289. That is even higher than the first one. You could say that that is an unreasonable kind of increase. To me, that gives problems to senior citizens who have very limited resources. It is all right if you have savings and income and money set aside, but this is regularly increased. You have to pay this month after month. It will be terrible, in my way of thinking, if this kind of policy is allowed without consideration of resources of senior citizen.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am already on housing, and that is the most important problem that I think I had to bring up.

I said I am going to talk also a little bit about retirement. You know, we have to plan for our retiring. On the other hand, retirement should not be based on mere age because this Claude Pepper, a U.S. senator, said: Age‑based retirement, if you have a policy that is based on simple, simple age, then you force people to retire. Age‑based retirement arbitrarily severs productive persons from their own livelihood. It squanders their talents; it scars their health; it strains an already overburdened social security system; and it drives many elderly people into poverty and despair. Ageism is as odious as racism or sexism.

It is a form of discrimination against old age. I am glad that in Manitoba the judicial ruling is that nobody can be forced to retire‑‑as far as I know, this is the law now‑‑when there is agreement between the employer and employee. The employee can continue to work, regardless of age.

We always yearn to retire, you know, when we are quite burdened with pressures in life, and yet we do not know the consequences that will flow from that. Once you retire, you are placed on fixed income, and the cost of living all around you is rising and increasing. As the years roll by, you are being pushed, slowly but surely, into the brink of poverty. Nothing is more usual than the sight of old people who yearn for retirement, but nothing is so rare as those who have retired that do not regret it. Most of the time they do regret it in old age.

So I would say to those people who are under pressure, they should be praying that they be slowed down, and they should be steady in their hurried pace of life. All we need to do is take the break that we need to give some ease in our tensions, in our muscles, so that we may appreciate the power of rest and sleep so that we may regain the strength that we need and face again another day of challenges in life.

I am almost done, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, but I come to a connected problem about retirement; it is the problem of lack of money, lack of resources. Most people are not so lucky like other people who may have pension plans, who may have other pension benefits. The normal run of individual who had not cared about the future‑‑instead, he had no money and will be relying on Canada Pension or old age assistance when they do retire. Those people who are retiring nowadays at the present or current time are luckier than we because there are still more funds in the pool of money in those funds; but, when government changes and policies change and they reallocate some of this money to public uses, it is not inconceivable that they may run out of money and that we who may retire later may have less to draw upon.

We must be assured that we should plan and put some money, if we can, to RRSPs just for the sake of keeping it there for the time that we need it. You can be young without money and enjoy life, but I say, you dare not be old without money.

* (2040)

Money is a a most curious commodity; it is a fascinating thing. It is good in itself for nothing. You cannot eat it, you cannot sleep on it, you cannot wear it, but it has the power to give you all these things. It is valuable to you only if you are willing to part with it. Those who are misers and want to embrace money and keep it with them all the time do not enjoy it. They enjoy maybe having it, but they never enjoy the benefits that money can bring.

On the other hand, money is simply a means. It is not life itself, but look at people. They will almost do anything for money. They will lie for money; they would cheat for money; they will sweat for money; they will even kill for money. That is why they say, and it is written, the love of money, you know that, is the root of all evil. Not money itself, money is very useful if you know how to use it, but if you love it so much, it can take you to things you do not want to go to. It can bring you to jail if you love it so much that you violate the law.

Now I would like to conclude, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, because of time limitations. I say, everyone has a duty to oneself. He must first fulfill his duty to his own self before he can be said to fulfill his duty to others. Aging people should know that their lives are not mounting or unfolding anymore. It is an inexorable inner process of life that life is contracting, so they must give serious attention to themselves, yet remembering all the time‑‑Adlai Stevenson said one time: It is not the years in your life, but the life in your years, that really counts. That is a good piece of wisdom to remember.

We should avoid pitying ourselves‑‑self‑pity‑‑never, never, never do that. There is nothing wrong with being poor or having a lack of money, but do not dwell on it. Do not dwell on the fact that you cannot even enjoy yourself and take yourself to a fancy restaurant. You can still live without those fancy things in life. You should be genuinely happy with the fortune of other people. Do not make your friends who are blessed with resources guilty because of the blessings that they enjoy. Your friends are your most valuable assets in your life. You can really know your friend when you are in trouble. When you are successful, all of them are around you, and you do not know who your friends are; but, when you are deep in trouble, then you recognize who your friends are.

Be frugal in the resources that you have command of. Use them most intelligently and be creative. There are certain things that do not have to cost money, and you still can enjoy them. For example, going out on a picnic under the tree does not cost too much, but you enjoy it. These are some of the things that I leave behind to those people who would like to have some guidance in their old age. I am not leaving in any sense, but I am learning all these things and trying to impart and share them with other people.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. I reserve the question privileges on specific items later on. I conclude my remarks.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the honourable member for Broadway for those remarks.

Does the honourable member for St. Boniface, the critic for the second opposition party, have an opening statement?

Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface): Oui, Monsieur le vice‑président.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I will be very brief because it was very interesting to listen to the member for the official opposition.

First of all, I would like to thank the minister's staff, I guess, because it appears that any time that a brochure comes it is delivered to my office in quantity so that I can deliver it to my senior homes in St. Boniface.

An Honourable Member: Is it in French?

Mr. Gaudry: In French also, yes. It is well appreciated. I delivered some just a few weeks ago again, the guide that he was talking about in his opening remarks. They find them very useful. They have even requested to have a few more, which have been forwarded from his office.

Since the minister has announced that he will not be seeking re‑election in the next election, I would like to thank him also personally for the openness that he has added over the years as Minister responsible for Seniors, because any time that he has had an event or anything, he has certainly offered our participation as critics in the senior area.

I wish him well in his upcoming retirement. I am sure he is not going to retire because he has been too active to do that, and he has not reached that magic age of senior, I do not think, because he looks too young. [interjection] That is probably because he worked hard for the seniors.

The member has touched many concerns there in regard to housing and calls he has received from seniors. We all do. Usually, when I get those calls, if it has anything to do directly with the Seniors Directorate, I certainly would pass them on to the minister. But it is usually, like, housing, and I direct them to the Minister of Housing or the Minister of Health, where also I have always been very fortunate in getting responses in regard to questions directed to those departments.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we will have questions, going through the Estimates here, but I would like to mention that I have been involved working with seniors for a number of years‑‑in housing, for example, in the early 1980s. I even mortgaged my house to start a project for the seniors. [interjection] No, no problem. There were six of us, and I thought it was showing leadership from these people.

Six months ago, I did the same thing again. There is another project going up on Des Meurons street. It is for the seniors of St. Boniface, and six of us again signed for a line of credit to start the project.

It may be taking a chance, but I think for the seniors, what they have done for our community‑‑they have been helpful, and they are people who have worked very hard in the community. When you work with them, the knowledge that they have and what they have passed on to us, it is always fair to help them if we can.

I feel that has been my contribution to the seniors, and I will continue working with them. Hopefully, in about a couple of months, that senior building‑‑it is 86 units‑‑will be opening on Des Meurons street in St. Boniface.

* (2050)

We have been very fortunate, I think. The people who have been involved have been community‑oriented individuals who have given their time as volunteers to make sure that we give this project a good end, and it will be, because if you go by on Des Meurons street, what it has done to the community, and like I say, I continue‑‑I think if need be at times we have had the support of the government. So it is important to continue to do that. Like I say, personally, I will continue working with the seniors.

Again, I would like to say thank you and wish him well in his retirement, to the minister. After the election is called, I am sure he will be around. We will probably want his advice as a senior at a later date also. Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Chairperson.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the honourable member for St. Boniface for those kind remarks.

Under Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary‑‑there is no Minister's Salary. At this time, we will turn to page 139, and we will ask the minister to introduce his staff present, please.

Mr. Ducharme: Kathy Yurkowski, my Executive Director.

Maybe I could just reply to a couple of remarks made by the members. I appreciate and‑‑I guess you pick your time when it is to retire, and I decided to do that a little while ago. I know the member understands under the circumstances why I am retiring. I guess you would not call it retirement. I guess it is like Earl's story about the army going over. The commander says to the young lieutenant, you take me over the mole there. He commands him to take his troops over the mole. You go over there, and all of a sudden the commander notices that the lieutenant is not directing his people that way. He is going in the opposite direction. So the commander yells back and he says: why are you retreating? And he yells back and says: we are not retreating; we are just going in a new direction. I guess that is about what it amounts to. Right?

To the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), I always enjoy his remarks, especially in '86‑88. I sat in opposition and we had fun with your remarks. You mentioned a couple of problems you had in your housing. One was‑‑and, as you know, I rewrote The Residential Tenancies Act. There are ways to deal with the inspections because we did put in part of the act, and I will get you the part of the act that stipulates when they can inspect the building.