LEGISLATIVE
ASSEMBLY OF
Monday,
March 16, 1992
The House met at 8 p.m.
BUDGET
DEBATE
The Acting Speaker (Mr.
Marcel Laurendeau): Order, please.
The honourable member for Radisson with 25 minutes remaining.
Ms. Marianne Cerilli
(Radisson): When we left off before, I was putting the
budget into some kind of an international context and seeing how this budget is
coming from a Conservative government similar to the Conservative government
that brought us the Canada‑U.S. trade agreement, which I was describing,
has wreaked havoc on our
I wonder how many people here know that
there was also a bill that was passed at the same time after the '88 election
which protects
We must always offer under this agreement
similar assistance to American corporations as Canadian corporations. Essentially, with the agreement we cannot
stop American corporations from taking over Canadian corporations and through
other instances like this we see that the trade agreement does not have very
much to do with trade, but is actually the basis for the economic union between
Mr. Acting Speaker, I wanted to go from
here and talk a little bit further about the economic disparity that is being entrenched
in
There is some hesitation to take on the
whole issue of taxation. The
Conservative agenda seems to be to continually almost play into peoples' greed
if you will, because they are always encouraging people not to want to pay any
more taxes. I remember in one of the
other debates that I was participating in in the House where I went into some
length in talking about the amount of disparity in taxation in the country and
for us to not kid ourselves when we talk about taxation and thinking that there
are no other options. The government
likes to use the line that there really is only one taxpayer. I have some problems with that. They try to say that people will also be
jeopardized if there is some fair corporate taxation. All of those kinds of quick responses that
they make to some kind of fair taxation, I think are taking away the hope that
a lot of people might have.
One of the other lines in the budget that
I have some problems with is the idea that the best social program is having a
meaningful job. Again, it seems to be
going along with the Tory Conservative idea that you really do not need social programs,
that you really do not need government, that you really do not need support.
* (2005)
I would suggest that a job is not going to
help someone who is in need of special education programs. It is not going to help someone who has a
dispute with their landlord. It is not going
to help someone who is a victim of violence. That is a very narrow view, and I think it
shows the true attitude that the government has to a lot of the social programs
and the government services that the government provides.
The other fallacy in the budget proposed
by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) is that everyone in
To have in the last couple of years to
have to spend some $90 million on welfare is a sign that something is not
working with the Tory agenda and the kind of economic policy and budgets that they
have brought in. We seem to always be
waiting for the miraculous investment that is supposed to follow with the Conservative
government, and we are waiting and waiting.
We continue to see our social security net attacked and depleted, and
people certainly have fewer and fewer government services, but we never seem to
get the long‑promised investment.
When I was listening to the Budget Debate,
I was noticing that there were some 10 tax breaks for corporations and there
was not‑‑[interjection] Excuse me, Mr. Acting Speaker, are you‑‑
The Acting Speaker (Mr.
Laurendeau): Order, please. The honourable member for Radisson at this
time is attempting to debate the budget.
If those members not willing to listen would mind to come to the loge
and have your conversations there or out in the halls, I am attempting to
listen to the honourable member.
Ms. Cerilli: Thank you, Mr. Acting Speaker. I know how eager you are to hear what I have
to say.
The other thing that the government has
done with this budget is, especially in rural
* (2010)
The other thing that the government seems
very proud of in their budget is that there are some 1,100 fewer positions in
the Civil Service than there were a couple of years ago. Again, as I was saying earlier, it shows that
they really do not have the kind of value that they claim to have. It seems that there is always a turn of the
hand. On the one hand, when we ask them questions
about social services, they seem to say that they are the government that has
done everything. They have done everything
for abused children and domestic violence, they have done more than everything
for aboriginal people and people in the North.
Then when you read their economic policy in the budget, you see where
they truly stand. They devalue the Civil
Service and they devalue social programs.
The other thing that was surprising about
this budget was there was a mystery of the Fiscal Stabilization Fund. On the one hand they say that they have
dipped into the Fiscal Stabilization Fund, they have a few more million dollars
out of there, but on the other hand when we talk about the surplus that was
left by the previous NDP administration, they say that there was no surplus. Then they will criticize the payroll tax
which generated some revenue which this government seems to be incapable of
doing, and on the other hand then, after criticizing the payroll tax, they will
claim that there was no surplus. Then they
have no explanation of where the Fiscal Stabilization Fund came from.
The other thing that the budget addresses
somewhat briefly is another one of these kinds of flip‑flops or double
standards, the whole area of cross‑border shopping. We have Conservative governments across the
country who are claiming that people should buy Canadian, and people should not
spend their money across the border. I
would like to see that same kind of standard applied to Canadian industry. We never see any government media campaigns
to encourage Canadian industry or industry that operates in
I would say that this budget is not as bad
as the last one which the government brought in, in terms of the cuts and the kind
of attack on a lot of the programs that people rely on.
I just then wonder what is the next one
going to be like, because this cannot keep going forever. We cannot continue to have the governments
not develop any more revenue, and keep taxes down the way they claim that they
are, but at the same time the municipalities are paying more, and not cut any
government spending with the economy staying the way that it is. Even though this budget is not as bad, even
though they have drained the Fiscal Stabilization Fund, as it could be, but I
suggest that we are just getting ready for what is going to happen in the next year.
* (2015)
I guess the government is just continuing
to wait for the said investment that the budget claims is just around the corner. It is always just around the corner. Somehow we are going to get all the
investment that is going to put those 52,000 people to work and decrease the
welfare rolls back to a reasonable, respectable level and eliminate them, which
I think is a reasonable level, and which I said is to eliminate them. You know,
we are always waiting for this miraculous investment that is going to follow a
Tory budget, or a Tory reign in government.
One of the other lines that we find in a
Tory budget is that they are always going to find new and better ways to run
things more efficiently.
I would like them to explain that to the
teachers who are now teaching in classrooms that are overloaded, and how those teachers
are supposed to teach and do their jobs more effectively when cutbacks are
basically making their jobs more difficult by putting them in situations where
they are dealing with more and more kids who have a wider diversity of needs,
which are not being dealt with by other areas in the social service net.
Finding ways to do more with less is
something else that child care workers are also being forced to do.
The other interesting thing when I was
listening to the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings), as he was claiming
quite proudly, is that his government staff in Environment are taking on
additional responsibilities, and they too are being asked to do more for
less. That is what the rhetoric we
always hear from the Conservative governments means, that being competitive
means that you do more work for less pay.
(Mr. Speaker in the Chair)
I want to take some time to look at the
Department of Environment. There are a
couple of issues there. Again this department
is such a shell of a department that they have not calculated specifically if
they have gotten increases that will completely meet the inflation that they
will face, but there are some interesting changes which are somewhat difficult
to understand.
The main function of the department one
would think is to ensure that environment regulations are enforced and that
there is some monitoring that goes on to see that happens, but in the branch
that does the main work of the department that is where we have seen the
cuts. We have seen a cut in the
environment management area of the department.
As we have discussed over and over in the
House‑‑and a lot of people liked to use the rhetoric‑‑we
have entered a period when environmental considerations are getting to be more
and more of a common concern. There are
becoming more and more regulations to enforce; there are becoming more and more
kinds of industry that are to be monitored.
Yet we are seeing that there is a decrease in the environmental
management section of the department.
When we compare that and see where there
has been an increase, because the department does show that there is a bit of an
increase, we see that it is in the area of legislation and intergovernmental
affairs. So here on the one hand, the government
is taking away from the environmental management branch, which is the branch
that is doing the real work in the department, and they are putting an increase
into the legislation intergovernment affairs area, which I assume is the area
that may do the drafting of legislation and do the correspondence between the
various governments.
That would make sense, because if it was
the area that was also dealing with the joint environmental assessments, which
we are getting into having in this province‑‑but there is another area
in the department that deals with that specifically, and that area has also had
a small increase.
I would question what is it that intergovernment
affairs does that requires more of an increase and is more important than the work
done in the environment management area.
We see over and over again where the government is not enforcing the
regulations that are existing in the province.
One of these days, this government is going to have to develop an area
in the branch that is really going to do regulation and enforcement. I do not have any confidence that it is going
to come under this current government.
* (2020)
The other area where we have seen a cut in
the department is in the Clean Environment Commission and, again, it is interesting. We are entering a time when there are going
to be a number of reviews by the Clean Environment Commission. It is very unusual or surprising that we
would have a decrease at the Clean Environment Commission when they are
entering into a time when they are going to have to do such a large amount of
work.
Mr. Speaker, I think I will move over and
talk a little bit about one of the other areas that I am responsible for, which
is multiculturalism. Again, there have
been not any drastic cuts in this budget in that area like we saw in the last
budget, but it is interesting to look and do some addition on where the government
is spending its money. They are spending
over $300,000 for the Multicultural Secretariat, and this is an office that we
know is entirely full of people who have been workers on the Conservative
government's political campaigns.
(Mr. Laurendeau in the Chair)
We see that they are paying staff who are
party supporters, and they put all‑‑I think it is some six or seven
staff in there now‑‑who a lot of people in the community are
wondering what that office actually does.
You compare that to the amount of money that the Manitoba Intercultural
Council has, and they have gotten no increase, where they are the body in
government that is there to advise the minister. They have the democratically elected representatives
from the community.
This, to me, is the example that
demonstrates this government's lack of commitment to having democratic
processes in government and some kinds of organizations that hold them accountable
when they are in one year creating this entire office with six or seven staff
and spending over $300,000 in an area that is basically shrouded in secrecy
from public accountability. This office,
I know that they go to a lot of events on behalf of the minister, but we are
going to look forward to our discussion during Estimates to find out exactly what
that area of the department is doing with their over $300,000.
One of the other areas that is causing
concern is the fact that this budget now shows that there is no support for
heritage languages by this government. That
was something that was eliminated in the last budget and has not been included
at all in this budget. I would suggest
that is an area where the government is remiss in encouraging and supporting
various communities in their offering courses to retain their heritage languages.
One of the other areas that is causing
concern is the erosion of the Community Places Program. The Community Places Program has been
important to a variety of sectors in our community‑‑the arts, the
sport and recreation areas as well as the multicultural area. This budget line has gone from over $9
million to some $4 million‑‑
The Acting Speaker (Mr.
Laurendeau): Order, please. The honourable member's time has expired.
* (2025)
Hon. Linda McIntosh
(Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Acting Speaker, I have followed this
Budget Debate with a great deal of interest.
I have listened to the comments that have gone back and forth on either
side of the House, and I find that the comments have been intriguing, very
intriguing, displaying as they do not only a major difference in the sense of responsibility
revealed in the handling of taxpayers' money or in the way that members would
handle taxpayers' money if they had the opportunity, but also a very great
philosophical difference in the basic understanding of the mandate of
government.
If the members opposite believe, as they
appear to, ideologically, that government is put in place to control, regulate
and regulate and regulate, and direct every individual's life then I can
understand why they feel a compulsion to spend great quantities of money
because such ideology is expensive, very expensive indeed. Such a controlling government would require a
vast infusion of funds as the former
Those funds, of course, need to come from
some place. That some place is actually
two places, Mr. Acting Speaker. First, the
money comes from the pockets of the taxpayers.
When those pockets are emptied or nearly emptied, then it comes from a lender,
borrowed dollars that have interest charges attached to them, interest charges
on a debt that grows larger every year as the productivity of the taxpayer
declines. After all, what use is it to
the taxpayer to be productive in a society put forth by those who have the
ideology of the members opposite? In an environment
such as that which they would create, there is no incentive to work hard to get
ahead because there is no ability to get ahead and no reward at the end of
those travails. Productivity yields no reward.
The reward for hard work is simply more hard work, so indolence and
lethargy become the norm even amongst those who have the ability to produce.
When the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli)
stands in the House as she did a moment ago, and as she did when she first became
elected, in her inaugural speech extolling the virtues of communism, because it
takes from each according to his ability and gives to each according to his
need, she does not understand how ability can be stifled, how ability can be
smothered and how ability can be stopped, stopped by punitive measures
unleashed against those of ability.
It reminds me of the story of the little red
hen, the little red hen who asked for help from her neighbouring farmyard
animals to gather some grain. Help me
gather the grain, she asked and they gave her no help. Then she asked them for help to grind the grain
and they would give her none. Then she
asked for help to gather the wood to build a fire so that she could bake some
bread with the grain she had gathered, ground and made into dough. She got no help. When the bread came out of the fire, Mr.
Acting Speaker, and its fragrance went wafting through the air, the neighbouring
farm animals took that bread, because why should the hen have everything? After all, the hen was rich. She had grain; she had wood; she had a fire,
and she had bread. I can almost hear the
farmyard animals crying, make the rich pay.
I can almost hear the little red hen say, I choose not to bake any more
bread. When all the people of ability
give up, who will there be to bake the bread?
* (2030)
The members opposite in all likelihood
would condemn the little red hen for the choice she makes to make no more
bread. In fact, they would in all likelihood forbid her that choice, for if she
has the ability to bake bread and refuses to bake it when all the others need
it, she should be condemned, and she should be forced to continue in her tasks
by law, with no reward for her efforts.
Her loaves may become inferior in quality and fewer in number, as those
societies that have practised the ideology as the members opposite have
discovered.
Will all the people of ability give
up? When Atlas shrugs and the world
tumbles off his shoulders, how are the people in need going to be served? They are not.
They go tumbling through space like the unwanted burden of Atlas's
globe, unprotected and unsupported.
It seems that socialism cannot exist
without capitalism having first created a pool of wealth from which socialism
can draw. After the left‑wing
governments have used up the wealth generated by free enterprise and people of
initiative, and after they have driven away the people of initiative and
ability, and after the pockets of the remaining populace are empty, after Atlas
finally shrugs, the populace will invariably choose a government like ours to
come in and clean up the mess left by years of careless and thoughtless
spending, to try and stimulate people again, to bring them out of their
lethargy and government‑instilled dependence, and provide them with incentives,
incentives to grow and achieve and create, so that the economy becomes strong
again.
This is the opposite ideology to that
which was just espoused by the member from Radisson (Ms. Cerilli). In order to provide the essential services so
necessary in a truly caring society, in a truly compassionate society, one must
have a strong economy. Governments do not create wealth. Governments do not generate that wealth;
people do, people whose initiatives should be rewarded and encouraged as this
budget and this government attempts to do.
We want to create the kind of economy, an economy of prosperity and
strength, that will serve all people well.
It has been said and it bears repeating
that you cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot expect people to start businesses,
create jobs and generate revenues through fair taxation for government programs
unless they stand to make a fair and reasonable profit for their efforts. To force ever‑increasing taxes on an
already burdened population, on individuals and on businesses is
counterproductive. As our Premier (Mr.
Filmon) has said, higher taxes mean fewer jobs every time.
In this budget there are no increases in
personal income taxes, no increases in business taxes, no increases in sales
tax, no increase in the provincial debt.
The members opposite are laughing and making fun of all this because
they do not feel that no tax increase is significant. They repeat over and over, no tax increase is
not of importance to them. They do not
feel it is significant that we have not put in tax increases through five successive
budgets. They are alone in that view.
One thing a person can always borrow
without collateral is trouble. But
government has collateral. Government,
as the members opposite know, government has the children and the grandchildren
of the current taxpayers serving in a prison with more than a lifetime sentence
to pay off the debt that has been created by high‑spending governments
that do not care to keep taxes down. The
members opposite do not feel that the debt is a problem. They even get mixed up sometimes and call a
debt a surplus.
The Premier said the Prince of Darkness,
the member beside me here said the Duke of Duplicity, and I guess the Prince of
Darkness has become the Duke of Duplicity.
Syrus said that debt is the slavery of the free, and one only has to
listen to the ratepayers to understand how deeply they feel that slavery.
I was interested just a moment ago when
the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) said that this budget goes along with an international
trend. She stood in her place and she
said: This budget goes along with an
international trend.
Maybe she should ask herself why, why this
budget goes along with an international trend.
Maybe she should examine those places in the world where her plan for
society has been tried and has been proven to be a disastrous experiment. In those countries where communism and
socialism have been practised for 30, 40, 50, 60 years, where suffering has
been raised to a higher level, where everyone is equal at the lowest common
denominator, where individuality is chilled and killed, and where now we see the
leaders of those countries pleading helplessly to world leaders in the western
world, to world leaders who espouse the philosophy that we espouse for aid and
for assistance which we gladly and willingly provide.
Those countries now recognize, as we do,
that while socialism is a benevolent theory, it has one rather major
problem. It does not work. It is like a filter turned upside down where
what goes in clear comes out cloudy. The
member for Radisson also said, the government uses the line that there is only
one taxpayer.
Indeed we do. There is only one taxpayer, and that taxpayer
has paid and paid, and I know the members opposite have to have been receiving
the same feedback we are receiving, because they live in the same world we live
in, and that is that this budget has been positively received by the ratepayers
who had it up to the top of their heads with the ever‑increasing taxes
they had to pay under the previous administration.
I know they have heard that feedback,
because I know I have had people who have phoned me, who have said, thank you
once again for not raising taxes, and I have phoned the NDP member from such‑and‑such
a place to tell him that same message.
So I know, when they stand in the House and say, it does not matter that
you have not raised taxes, that is irrelevant, you should be spending more,
more, more, I know they have heard from the taxpayers as to what the taxpayers
really feel, and I know that the members opposite stand alone in their view.
I was also intrigued to hear just a few
moments ago from members opposite that we on this side really do not care about
social programs, and the budget we presented, they say, does not display any
interest in the social programs.
Yet the alternate budget that the NDP
presented to the public through their nonelected organization they call
Choices, that alternate budget that they presented to the public through their nonelected
organization did not address social programs to the same degree and intensity
that we did. I am really surprised that
any member opposite would be able to stand with a straight face, indicate that
the budget does not show any concern about social programs when their own
alternate budget presented by their front group Choices did not propose the
degree of caring that we did.
* (2040)
For example, Choices said: There should be a 5.1 percent increase in
funding to Family Services. They put
their budget out and they said, there should be a 5.1 percent increase to Family
Services. Well, we disagree with
Choices. We disagree with them. We do not think that 5.1 percent is
enough. We really do not understand how
they could not care about social programs to the degree that we do.
We gave Family Services an 8.7 percent
increase, Mr. Acting Speaker. In Ontario‑‑[interjection]
The member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) is now chirping from her seat about
welfare, and I would be very pleased to address the issue. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) is
trying to shout me down. He does not want
me to address the member for Radisson's point.
The member for Radisson has just indicated
welfare. I think maybe she wishes she
had not said that from the look on her face.
Let me indicate what everybody here knows,
that while we are giving an 8.7 percent increase in funding to Family Services,
specifically with social allowances, the NDP in
I know that the member for Concordia says
he wants to debate
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (
Mrs. McIntosh: I cannot blame him. The member for
Who is it that cares about social
programs? Certainly we care more than
the Choices budget cares. Certainly we
care more than the NDP in
We are giving over 5 percent increase in
funding to Education, 8.7 percent increase to Family Services, over 5 percent
increase to Health. We are doing these
things during a period of time when our revenues to the province are coming in
at around 2 percent increase.
During their years with a double digit
increase in revenues to the province, all they did was double the debt. It took over a hundred years of
They remind me of people who murder their
parents and throw themselves in the mercy of the court because they are
orphans.
Mr. Acting Speaker, the NDP are always
saying that they are the ones who care about the working people. They say they care about the working people,
but the working people, whoever they are, and to me that is anybody who gets up
in the morning and goes out of the house and puts in an honest day's labour,
and that could be a professional, a white‑collar worker, a blue‑collar
worker, a farmer, anybody, but they have a particular category that they pigeon‑hole
people into. The people in my constituency
who work, which is just about all of them because they are hard‑working
people, those people‑‑
Point of
Order
Mr. George Hickes (Point
Douglas): On a point of order. I just wanted to raise the question about‑‑she
said all the people in her constituency are working because they are hard‑working
people. The constituents in Point
Douglas are also‑‑
The Acting Speaker (Mr.
Laurendeau): Order, please. The honourable member for Point Douglas did
not have a point of order. It is a
dispute over the facts.
* * *
Mrs. McIntosh: Thank you very much, Mr. Acting Speaker. The member for Point Douglas knows perfectly
well that in every constituency there are people who have jobs and people who
do not have jobs. The member for Point
Douglas also knows that the people from Assiniboia, who work hard at whatever
they do whether they are employed or not employed, those people have indicated
to me that they do not feel the previous administration did very much for them.
(Mr. Speaker in the Chair)
Those people have indicated to me that the
taxes that were taken from them by the previous NDP administration in this
We look at the things that this budget
puts forward for the people of
It is certainly not what is being said
about other jurisdictions in this country headed by socialist regimes.
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): Socialist regimes.
Mrs. McIntosh: The member for Concordia laughs when I say "socialist
regimes," and the members opposite laughed when I referred to‑‑
Mr. Steve Ashton
(Thompson): Socialism for the rich.
Mrs. McIntosh: You know, "socialism for the rich,"
says the member for Thompson. Let me
tell you, they sit over there and say "make the rich pay, make the rich
pay, make the rich pay," and under their administration, everybody becomes
rich. The people in my constituency‑‑
An Honourable Member: . . . listen to the working class.
* (2050)
Mrs. McIntosh: Because
they have to pay. Everybody in my constituency,
the bus drivers, the truck drivers, the homemakers, the small businessmen, the
teachers, the nurses, they all become rich because they all have to pay and pay
and pay, because of policies put down by the previous NDP administration. They make the rich pay, and they put
everybody into that category.
The members opposite indicate I have taken
over from Harry Enns. I can tell you
that Harry Enns has been elected to this Legislature for 25 years, and has made
some very good points from his seat in this Assembly. I would be very proud to follow in his
footsteps. He has not been here for 25
years because he followed the philosophy of the people opposite, whose budgets
did not resemble this budget.
In
I find it very interesting that members
opposite have been able to generate very little backlash against this
budget. They have tried very, very hard
to do that. They have tried very, very
hard to get the public annoyed and agitated about this budget, and they have
not succeeded. They just, plain and simple,
have not succeeded. All their rash
predictions about the harm this was going to do, all of their rash predictions
about what this budget was going to contain have not come true. The people, who are complimenting us about
this budget, I know are passing on those same compliments about this budget to
the members opposite. They cannot deny
that they have not heard that praise, for they would have to be deaf, dumb and
blind not to have heard it from the people of
The member beside me, the member from
Niakwa (Mr. Reimer), in his budget address, said that he thought that we should
rename the New Democratic Party to the new dinosaur party because he felt there
was a lot of backward thinking over there.
You know, I really cannot disagree with him, and I suppose that one of
the reasons that I cannot help agreeing with him is because I know the
dinosaurs were very large and cumbersome and destructive and had very tiny
little brains.
All of the promises that were made prior
to the last provincial election in this province have been kept. We have promised that we would keep taxes
down. That was an election promise. We have held to it. It was one thing that we said at all the
doors we went to, that we would do our best to keep government spending
down. We would do our best to keep taxes
down. We would do our best to contain
the size of government. Those were election promises.
They know as well as we know that going
door to door before the 1990 election, the No. 1 issue at the doors was
taxation. The No. 1 issue that came up over and over again was, if I vote for
you will you keep the taxes down? If I
vote for you will you get a handle on government spending? If I vote for you will you promise you will
try to eliminate government waste and mismanagement? If I vote for you will you try to undo some
of the harm that was done by the government that is in there now, which was the
Pawley government. Our answer was
always, yes, we will make every effort to do those things, and we have not increased
those taxes. No increase in personal
taxes. No increase in business
taxes. No increase in sales tax. You want the sales tax to go up?
An Honourable Member: No.
Mrs. McIntosh: You do not.
Ah, the member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) has finally agreed he does not
want the sales tax to go up, and that is really a nice thing to have on the
record. Those were the promises that we
made at the doors.
Contrast that record, Mr. Speaker, to the
record of those people who went door to door in
So they got in, and Premier Bob when he
got in said, well now, golly gee, we did not quite expect to get in; we did not
really think we were going to get in, and now we have got all these
promises. We will try, we will try. Well, we will have to think about it for a
couple of months while we are figuring out how we are going to try. Then all of a sudden they had a $9 billion
deficit. Then all of a sudden they
looked at a $14 billion deficit, and all of a sudden they said, whoa, we have
got to break all our promises. We have
got to break all our promises. We are so
sorry. It is just that we did not know
what we were doing when we promised them in the first place. Do not really blame us. There is a recession out there. It is all Brian Mulroney's fault. We should not have promised those things. We are sorry.
We knew enough not to make those kinds of
promises, Mr. Speaker. We had enough
foresight. While we are holding the line
here as promised and keeping the lid on government expenses, they are giving a
14.5 percent increase to the
That is something that people want. Now somebody over there said, I think it was
the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) who said that he was not a
populist. He said, members opposite are populist,
they do what their public wants. I am
not a populist, he said, I do what is right.
I found it a rather surprising statement. I guess the thing that is interesting is that
we told the public what we were going to do and, because they agreed with us,
they elected us, and so we reflect the popular opinion because we gave them the
opinion that they said they wanted.
I also fail to see what is wrong with
being a populist if being a populist means that you are doing what the people
want you to do. Forgive me, I kind of
thought that is why we were elected. I
look at the way that we have kept a lid on government expenditures, and I look
at the way‑‑I know how the members opposite spent when they were
in. It was spend, spend, spend, spend,
spend, spend, spend. I know how they
spent, because I watched it happen. I
know how the debt doubled, because I watched the debt double. I know how the debt doubled, because it affected
me personally, it affected my neighbours, it affected the people in my
constituency, it affected my family.
They know that too.
An Honourable Member: She cut spending in the school board.
Mrs. McIntosh: Oh, you want to start talking about
that? Whoa, you should not have opened
that‑‑you should not have opened hat. During the period of time that I was chairman
of the board, we did similar things there that we are doing here in that we cut
expenditures, we kept the taxes down, we improved the quality and availability
of programming, and the people, because we did that, we closed 13 schools, and
got elected again and again and again by overwhelming majority every time we
ran‑‑every time we ran.
If you want to check the record, you can
see the plurality by which we were elected, and you can see that the strong
stands we took to be cost effective, to be good business people, to reduce expenditures
while improving programming, you will see that the largest plurality in the
history of the school division was accorded those trustees who made those firm,
strong, carefully thought out decisions.
Carrying on to the budget of the province,
having put in the aside at the opposition's request about the budget of the
school division, I cannot help but compare when we talk about expenditures,
having had some idea of how the NDP spent money here, and knowing the
expectations of their "friends."
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They keep accusing us of the
"friends" that we had, but you look at what
I know that the opposition, Mr. Speaker,
does not wish to support a budget that reflects so well on us and so poorly on them. I know because it has been told me by members
opposite that whether they believe in the budget or not they have an obligation
to knock it because that is their job.
What they believe in their hearts really does not matter. It is their job to oppose. They are the opposition. No matter how good their constituents tell
them it is, they feel compelled to stand and criticize it. So stand and criticize it they do, although
few are listening to them, and of those who do listen, even fewer believe their
rhetoric.
I cannot help but be proud of a budget
that gives increases to essential services, such as health, education, and
family services, substantial increases, and holds the line on taxes for the
fifth consecutive time. I am pleased
that we had the Fiscal Stabilization Fund available to draw monies from on a
rainy day. That fund was set aside for precisely this kind of reason. It was set aside so that when there was a
need and when there was "a rainy day," that it could be our umbrella,
and that we were able to use that for that purpose.I am pleased that we have
had the foresight and the wisdom to set aside that money for that purpose so
that we would not have to raise taxes at this time for the people of
I believe this budget is a budget for all
Manitobans. I believe that those of
every income level and those of every occupation and those, indeed, who have no
occupation will benefit from the initiatives in this budget.
I not only support it, Mr. Speaker, I
wholeheartedly endorse it, and I know that 30 years from now, when it is no
longer important to the opposition members to oppose simply for the sake of
opposing, that they too will acknowledge in hindsight the wisdom of our
approach of fiscal responsibility versus their approach which ran us deep into
debt, a debt from which we will be a long time surfacing. I ask them if they have the courage to do
what I know their constituents want them to do and join with us in supporting
this budget.
Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The
Maples): Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to speak on
this very important document, which is one of the most essential documents any
government can bring. That is the budget.
Mr. Speaker, I am going to take a little different
approach to the whole debate. [interjection] It looks like the Deputy Premier
is going to do the job he has done for the last 40 years, heckle during the
speech, but I do not need any help from him today.
Mr. Speaker, this budget has given us very
mixed feelings, and there are some good things in the budget, and some are not quite
acceptable. The one thing which people
have liked in my area is holding the tax to the level that the people have expressed
that they are unable to pay taxes any more.
I think the government has gotten that message very clearly, and they have
kept that promise because, with the cynicism and the distrust to the
politician, I think it would have been a very severe blow to all of us if the
government did not keep that promise. I
think it just reflects not only on the government, but all of us, that
something which was promised finally was done.
Mr. Speaker, I want to talk about, in
terms of the major part of this budget, which is the health care, and I will
keep most of my comments in that area.
As we all know, not only in this province, but in this country, we have
a major problem at hand. That is the funding of the health care system. We got a 5.6 percent raise in the budget,
which is significant, a very significant amount in terms of inflation and in
terms of what other provinces like
(Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in
the Chair)
I think the issue is larger, as I said,
that the funding of health care does not really depend upon each and every
province. It is an issue which depends upon the federal government. Madam Deputy Speaker, I think it will be
worthwhile for us and through this assembly to tell the people of
Why I say that is because I made that
clear when I brought Bill 51 as a private member's bill. I made my comment at that time in light of
the funding formula that we have or the federal government and how that is
having a greater impact. Most people do
not realize because they are not being told.
It is not the fault of any special government, but they do not know that
the money which we fund for the health care system does not come from the
province solely. It also comes from a
sharing formula, which the federal government has slowly and gradually for the
last six or seven years‑‑it has gone down significantly, and the
way the funding formula is now, by year 2002, we will not have any federal
funding.
That is very sad. People must know that. I think it will be very dangerous for us in
this House as a member of the Legislative Assembly to demand things and not
explain to the public at large that this is an issue which crosses provincial boundaries. It goes to
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Madam Deputy Speaker, the Canada Health
Act of 1966 and later in 1984 when the federal government reaffirmed the five principles,
they have made the law, but they have failed to oblige by their own obligations
in terms of the funding formula. They have given us a standard, but they are
not funding that standard properly.
That is why each and every province has a
different set of guidelines. Each and every
province has its own definition of a health care system. That is why some services, which are covered in
That is why we are asking all members in
this House to support our private member's bill, Bill 51, which will be the first
of its kind in this country in terms of finally confirming the five basic
principles of health care. Then this
government can have some more legal power to negotiate the funding formula of
the federal government.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I sincerely hope
that the government will look at this bill very seriously, and the members of
the New Democratic Party will also look at this bill in a very positive way to
make sure of some of the basic principles that we all said in the campaigns,
and so we can stand by those principles and confirm those principles and make
them a part of
I was intrigued by the Minister of Health
(Mr. Orchard) that he had some positive things to say about that bill. We will see whether that materializes in the
long run.
Madam Deputy Speaker, it is extremely
important for us to have those things put in place so that we can‑‑not
only this government, our future governments will have the power to fund the
health care system.
Madam Deputy Speaker, the other issues,
which are of great concern to people in terms of what is a necessity, and what
are the other services in health care which could be termed as nonessential
services, that has to be discussed.
I do not think we have any choice in this
House to set aside those basic things, because people are simply asking, can we
continue to afford an expensive health care system? Can we continue to afford $1.8 billion? Can we continue to increase our health care
demand for next year, and the year after that?
I think those are very important questions. That is why we are eager to listen to this
government in terms of: What do they think
are the essential services, and how are we going to preserve those essential
services?
That is why we were looking for very bold
initiatives and very bold steps from this administration. We got one.
At least there was a basic change in terms of the policy direction, that
the government would move from institutional care to community‑based
care, and that is a very positive step.
That is why we simply today asked the Premier (Mr. Filmon): If you are going to abide by their policy,
why do you not show us the numbers where you are going? The Premier was not very well informed, so he
went in a different direction.
We were disappointed not to see many
positive initiatives. As I said from the beginning, a budget is one of the most
important economic documents.
Mr. Lamoureux: It is the most important.
Mr. Cheema: It is the most important document, as the
member for
Madam Deputy Speaker, a lot of things can
be done to meet the changing needs. To
meet the needs of patients and health‑care providers, we have to have a
system which will be human, which will have a human approach, which will have a
compassionate approach, but at the same time we should not forget that medicare
is not free. The taxpayers are funding
the medicare system.
The other step that we were eagerly
looking for was changing the direction in the funding of
Madam Deputy Speaker, we were unable to
find in this budget any other specific direction in terms of how the government
is going to shift health care from the institution to the community base, and
how they are going to provide the same kind of care, but with less cost in that
community, but also give us a special direction. When you are having a major policy
announcement, and you are not letting the health‑care provider know how
you are going to do it, it is causing a major concern in the health care community. The government is not telling them exactly
what they are going to do. That is why
each and every hospital is trying to come up with the numbers, and they are trying
to look at how they are going to close some of the beds and then move the services
to the community. I think governments
should make those things very clear to the people of
Madam Deputy Speaker, we wanted those
directions to be seen in this budget. We
wanted to have exact numbers as to how the government will do it, but they
have, once again, not shown any clear direction. I sincerely hope that we will see them in the
Estimates process.
Madam Deputy Speaker, the issue of health
promotion and prevention has to be one of the cornerstones of any community‑based
care, and we saw there was a cut in funding to external agencies and I think
that is sending a very wrong signal. It
may be a very small amount, but when you are developing a major policy and when
you are making announcements which indicate that you are serious to implement
some of the policies, if you cut the funding at the same time it sends a bad signal. We sincerely hope that the minister will be
able to clarify those situations.
Many individuals were concerned because
external agencies are one of the major components of the community care. These organizations have a number of
volunteers, many health care providers who give hours and hours of their free
time and they work very hard, and they know what is happening in the community. They are the ones where we should be learning
and spending some of our tax dollars more effectively. I was disappointed to see that some of the
funding was cut from those external agencies.
Today the Premier (Mr. Filmon) said, well,
we are giving 5.6 percent. Why are you
complaining? We are simply asking, if
you are making a major policy shift then you should tell the people and tell
them how you are going to do it, and that is missing. That is what I said, we
need a more straightforward, more truthful and more honest approach to this
issue rather than play to the camera and say the Liberals are asking to spend,
spend, spend.
That simply is not true. We have been very consistent, very positive. We have a balanced approach to the system.
Madam Deputy Speaker, we were disappointed
with the Premier's answers, but I think when the Minister of Health (Mr.
Orchard) comes, probably he should sit down with his Premier, explain to him
that he has a different goal than the Premier himself.
Madam Deputy Speaker, in the area of
health prevention and promotion there has to be a major change in the policy
direction, and we were hoping that the minister would do it. If there is something where we were
disappointed, it was the new Health Services Development Fund. It may have good intentions, but it is not
very clear how the government is going to spend that $3 million to $4
million. I think the hospitals, health‑care
providers and patients have the right to know how this government is going to
spend that kind of money.
Madam Deputy Speaker, we were very pleased
to see an increase in the Home Care funding.
There is a substantial amount in the area of Pharmacare. There has been an increase in the funding of some
other services, but I think there has to be more shift and that shift turned to
the institution, to the community, must be shown in terms of the numbers. The mental health care community is very
anxious to wait for the Health budget Estimates and see how that $212 million
in the area of mental health is going to be divided.
Madam Deputy Speaker, we want the
government to move into the community‑based care. We want them to move on a gradual basis. We
want them to have a specific plan. We
want them to let people as well as the health care provider understand how they
are going to do it so that there could be mutual co‑operation and understanding
of the whole process. It is a very
important issue. We spend one‑third
of our provincial budget on health care.
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I think people have the right to know, and
at the same time, I think they would like to know how the money is being spent,
and they want to be responsible. We want
the minister and this government to look at educating the public about the
health care issues. I think it is one of
the most important things for the government to do. We sincerely hope that they will come up with
a policy which will teach people how we fund our health care system, who is
finally paying for those things, and also, that will eventually save some
money. That is one of the suggestions we
would like the minister to follow up on.
I was told that as a member of a
opposition we can come here, we can make all the noise, we can make all the
suggestions, but the government gets the credit and that is fine with me. I do not have any particular desire to claim
some of the things which have been done in the past, but at least people are
getting the benefit and that is the most important thing.
That is why we are asking that it does not
matter if the government wants to do our Bill 51 to reaffirm those five basic principles,
because any reform has to be guided by those principles. If the government wants to do it, we will be
very happy to have them that bill. I am
sure everyone in this House will be very happy to see our Minister of Health
(Mr. Orchard) taking that kind of approach, and we will support him in that direction.
Madam Deputy Speaker, the other issues
which are extremely important to people of
I think that will give dignity back to the
patient; I think that is the most important thing. I do not think anybody in his right mind is
going to oppose that bill because that bill was basically‑‑Manitoba
Law Reform Commission has worked very hard. We were hoping that the government
would bring that bill, and once they failed to do so, we have brought that bill
forward. If government will do it in the
future, we will be very willing for them to take this bill also.
That is fine with us as long as those
bills are passed and people get their say, and they get the credit. I think that issue, hopefully, will resolve
because if we all remember what happened with a patient in
I think this Bill 16 will help in those
situations. As I said from the
beginning, we strongly feel that will give patients their final say, and also
to some extent it will save money in the long run. I think that is a secondary thing. The primary thing is giving the right to a
patient to control their destiny and control their right of treatment.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I hope that the
minister would look into that bill very seriously. That is one of the positive suggestions,
again, because we have been accused that we do not bring anything positive, we
just complain. So far, Madam Deputy Speaker,
we have been telling the government what they can do differently. I will again emphasize that the government
should look at our health care funding and also look at the whole spectrum of
educating people about the health care system.
I want to talk in terms of reforms which
have been in the works for a number of months now, and in terms of the Urban Hospital
Council which has a number of subcommittees, and a lot of credible people are
on those committees. They have right intentions,
but any decisions which are being made, I think they should have a broader
public consultation. Those things are
not being done. So we would ask the
government, any health care reform must be within the parameters of the five
basic principles of health care. I do
not think we should sacrifice the five basic principles. Keep the five basic principles that
I hope that the minister would look into
the health care reform, not to cut services, but I think to spend smartly and spend
effectively and manage our health care dollar in the long run. I think we will do a good service as members
of this Assembly if we continue to follow those directions.
I do not think it is any more a monopoly
or a special right of any political party in this country, but I think every
person in this House cares for health care.
I sincerely believe that is true.
Even though we may have a basic difference in some of the approaches,
basically we want positive things for all of us. I think we want that what we have today, we
can preserve it for tomorrow for our children and for the future generations.
Madam Deputy Speaker, anything which will
be eventually done should reflect our way of life and our way of thinking and
also our way of approach, that is a human approach. I hope that any reforms which will eventually
come into effect should be guided by those five basic principles.
Madam Deputy Speaker, we believe that we
have made a significant contribution in the area of health in a very positive way. Some of the things the minister has followed,
and they have carried this view, I think in the area of mental health and he has
done a very good job. Also, there has
been a significant contribution from the members of the official opposition in
terms of some of the issues they have brought forward. We still think that as long as we continue to
bring the positive suggestions, and not be overdemanding, and make sure that we
take care of the public purse the way we would take care of our own purse, probably
I think we will be more careful in some of the demands we make in this House.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I will emphasize
again that our approach is going to be in health care in the same fashion as
has been for the last four years. It is
politically very risky, but it is the responsible opposition approach, and I
think people are realizing that. We all
will benefit from them. When I say
"we all," the members of this House and, I think, taxpayers will benefit
from those things.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to go into
another point in terms of what the government announced today. It was the credentials for the foreign‑trained
professionals. Finally, it was brought
to our knowledge that there was a working group. The government has made a positive step in
the right direction, but we want to study that document and want to make sure
that should not be only a PR document.
It should have a real meaning in the long run, a real substance in the
long run.
We want that when people come to this
country, Madam Deputy Speaker, they bring with them a lot of education, they
bring with them a lot of hopes and a lot of good will. If we do not utilize all three components of
a person, then I think we lose in our resources, and we should make sure that
we take full advantage of those situations.
Madam Deputy Speaker, in particular, I
want to make another positive suggestion which the minister should consider,
and that is to set up a program for foreign‑trained physicians who have already
passed their exams, who are clinically competent, who are eligible to practise
only if they get their internship in
* (2130)
Madam Deputy Speaker, while I am
discussing the foreign‑trained physician, I want to emphasize there are a
lot of foreign‑trained teachers, nurses, engineers, accountants, carpenters,
name it, that bring a lot of good will with them, and this government has a
chance to do it and show a good will.
They are more and more, I think, realizing now that eventually something
has to be done; and, if you create one job, I think that will help one family,
and I think that helps everyone. That is
why it is so important, whatever we do in this House, if we continue to work
toward the creation of jobs.
I wanted to talk about that. As the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) said
the other day, and I was very impressed when he said that: The best thing that we can do as social
justice is to have a job for everyone. I
think that is a statement which has a lot of meaning, and I think it is very,
very positive. [interjection] It does not matter. I do not know where it came from, but I think
the intentions are there, very positive intentions, but as long as that is
true. I mean, if the intentions are true
and if there is a good will, I think it will happen in the long run. I think that will also provide at least a
minimum guarantee to a person that he or she can afford and live and contribute
in a positive way, because without jobs you are really a desperate person and
your potential is being taken away.
We were very disappointed to see the
statement is there, but we do not have any meat attached to that
statement. We do not have anything
positive, any initiative to start some jobs in terms of job creation. The minister and the government would say that
it is the tough economic times, that they do not have money and they cannot
borrow. But, Madam Deputy Speaker, when
you are giving so many tax holidays to big corporations‑‑and I am starting
to believe that now, because I see the numbers now‑‑that if you
give the tax breaks to individuals in terms of, as we have proposed, having a
three‑month tax holiday for sales tax reduced by 3 percent, that will
boost the economy. That will help it, and
then we can reassess the situation. That
should be done, and that will give people a chance to have confidence in the economy. We are not asking too much. I think that will help. That will create jobs
for us in
I think it is very easy in this country,
or in this province, that if you want to please your own supporters, then
probably look for their interests, but that if you want to serve each and every
person, then I think you have to have a program that will meet the need of each
and every person. You cannot just please
your own ideological approach. I think
that you have, when you are the Minister of Finance or you are the government,
a major responsibility. I sincerely want
to see that in five or 10 years' time, people can say that this government and
this Minister of Finance did a good job, but that remains to be seen.
I think that it may be taken very lightly,
that the member from the opposition third party cannot be taken seriously, but
we know that we have a sincere approach.
We have a major concern that we as human beings are contributing in a
major way. If we are not going to
achieve the basic things for all of us, all of our families and as a society,
then I think we are failing. I would
emphasize that we are going to achieve that minimum goal of a job for everyone,
then I think we should look at the person as a whole and try to help the
individual, irrespective of their deficiencies in terms of whether they may not
have the right education, or they may not be born into a rich family, or they may
not have the environment where they can progress.
I think that is why I differ with the
minister, this government's philosophy.
I think as a government there is some responsibility, that you have to
help in difficult times. I think that is
why it would have given me at least a sense that we are contributing, and that
we can tell each and every person when we go out that something is being done
for next year and the year after that. I
think it will be very much easier for all of us when we have six years of
normal life of a politician; then you can go and make a decision that is going
to impact on somebody for years to come.
Then they are going to say, well, somebody else made a decision.
I think it is a tough job, and I can
understand and appreciate the Minister of Finance and their difficulties, but I
think it is about time that maybe something else should be done. I am not an
economic master, and I do not have all the answers, but I am just asking, they
have the resources, they have the right individual to contact and maybe come up
with a policy which will create the environment which will help everyone to
have a job and have a minimum guarantee of life and feel good about themselves. At least they can be positive and contribute.
I do not think we are here to represent a
specific interest group. We are paid to
represent each and every person. I think
of how the time in Question Period is being spent, what somebody did there two
years ago or four years ago or six years ago.
I think that kind of nonsense has to be stopped, because that is not
taking us anywhere. I think we have a
major responsibility. I think, with the changing society and changing need, our
attitude in this House, I have seen it, has changed dramatically. I sincerely hope that the minister will look
at the sales tax proposal‑‑3 percent cut for three months, and see that
there is a boost in the economy.
Madam Deputy Speaker, as I said, it is
coming from my heart. I did not get anybody to write my speeches and have a
look at the political ideology. I am
telling her what is important from the people's point of view, everyone,
whether they voted for a right or a left or the middle. I am simply asking for the human approach.
The most important thing, as I said, is
the creation of jobs and a healthy economy, and I think that brings the good
lifestyle that brings people‑‑you know, the health improves. I mean, it is a well‑documented thing,
that with poverty health goes down and there are a lot of problems with
poverty. There is substance abuse and
family violence and the disease which is now called homelessness.
(Mr. Speaker in the Chair)
In
I think it is very crucial that any
government's policy has to look at a person and try to create an environment
around that individual, so that person from each and every spectrum of life is
given the best possible option. I think
then we can bring the best out of them; I think then we are doing the best
service. I think it will be taken care
of at that time.
I do not think anybody wants to sit
idle. I cannot think of any human being
who does not want to contribute. When we
talk about individuals, they are people on welfare. I think you just have to look at them and
talk to them. They are desperate, they are
in a very bad situation, because they have no place to go and they want to
work.
Mr. Speaker, I am talking about this very
serious matter in terms of looking at the statistics with the homelessness in
an industrial nation which has become a disease in one of the seven economic
powers in the world. I think we are
dreaming. That simply is not true
anymore. With the cold war ending, as I
said, there is economic warfare going on around the world. Do not underestimate other nations. We have to compete at the level in terms of
their abilities.
* (2140)
I think that is why it is so crucial for
any government to look for the best in a person and work with them. I think if we even tried today in terms of
maybe we can improve the next generation‑‑it is not going to show
up tomorrow. That is why education, the
economy, health, environment‑‑you cannot differentiate any one of
them. The person is in the middle. I see it, and I see the economy as the main
engine, and I see society as a whole as a major spectrum which is going to
build a nation. A province is a
collection of people and families. That it
is why I would have liked to have seen the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness)
give more weight to his own statement. I
think that was missing in the whole budget.
I cannot be more specific than that.
I think people wanted to have something
that they can grasp and say, I can go forward.
That is missing. It may not be a
bad budget in terms of the public opinion at this time, but I think they have
just given up. I mean, 52,000 people
without jobs, without any hope for the future.
That is terrible. Can you imagine
any one of us without a job for five days?
It would be very tough.
So I was disappointed that the government
has not done anything for the unemployed.
Some of them, it may not be under their control, but I think‑‑I
see that I just have four minutes, so I will try to sum up.
Mr. Speaker, I will end up by saying that
there were some positive things in the budget and some negative. Other than negative, I do not see any hope
for the future. We may see short‑term
things. Playing with their Fiscal
Stabilization Fund, the numbers game, is not going to wash with people, because
when each one of us goes to sleep at night, I think we must be honest ourselves. That is why I am simply asking for honesty
from this government to deal with the person as a whole.
That is missing. I would have been very happy to support the whole
thing and say, well, it is best for people, but it is not best for each and
every person. It may be best for the higher‑income
people. I think the Minister of Finance
should look at his own statement and try to search his own conscience and see
how they could have done differently and in a better way.
I have put a lot of positive suggestions
for health care, and I hope the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) will have a
good look at them. I hope that we can
all support my Bill 51, that is to preserve medicare in this country and in
this province.
Mr. Speaker, thank you for letting me speak
on this very, very special document. I
hope that we can have at least a good debate and see next year how we do it
because, once we are gone from here, which is every sixth year of life, people
are not going to be very happy but, if we fail them today, I think we are failing
ourselves in the long run.
Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I look forward to speaking again
on another Budget Debate. The Budget
Debate really is one of the more interesting debates we have in this
Legislature. It gives us a chance to
debate the overall economic policy for the government, to perhaps reflect as
well on some of the events that have taken place since the last time we had the
opportunity to debate economic policy in full, and to perhaps look ahead beyond
merely a statement of a government's intentions to the kind of province we
would like to see, the kind of economic policy we would like to see put in
place to bring that about.
Indeed, I am pleased that the Minister of
Finance (Mr. Manness) is here because later on in my speech I intend on pulling
out a few dusty but rather interesting speeches he has given in previous
reincarnations as a critic from the opposition side, and I look forward, Mr.
Speaker, later on to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) also hearing some of his comments
from previous speeches he gave as the then Leader of the Opposition, but I actually
wanted to deal with a number of the themes that we have heard throughout this
debate from government members.
I must say that it was with some interest
that I recently read Hansard, March 12, 1992.
I have been a member of this Legislature for just over 10 years
now. This is not an old comment, but it
will bring into context some of the speeches that I have heard from
Conservative members who predate the 1988 election‑‑there are a
number of them here today‑‑and some of the comments that they used
to make when they were in opposition.
I think this might be somewhat edifying
for new members of the Conservative caucus, because I noticed, and I could not believe
it when I read it, so I read it again, and I read it again, but the Minister of
Health (Mr. Orchard)‑‑boy, we remember the Minister of Health from
his days in opposition. It says here: ". . . I have been in opposition and I
know how difficult it is to make a point from time to time, except when you
really have an issue to go after the government on,"‑‑and I
want to emphasize this, Mr. Speaker, and this is a direct quote from Hansard: "but whenever we did not have issues, we
tended to resort to name‑calling and allegations and wild‑eyed
rhetoric."
An Honourable
Member: Who said that?
Mr. Ashton: Who said that?
The Minister of Health. I go further
to quote: "I have to admit that
upon occasion I did do that, I have to confess."
The Minister of Health, whom those of us
who were in government at the time remember very well, and I can imagine if I had
gotten up at the time and said that this is exactly what the opposition was
doing, this was what the Minister of Health was doing, I probably would have
ended up like the former Minister of Health Larry Desjardins who was kicked out
of the Legislature for calling the now Minister of Health, the member for
Pembina (Mr. Orchard), a frequent abuser of the rules. I would have been vilified by the
Conservative opposition, Mr. Speaker.
They at the time claimed that they had
only one interest, the public good of the province, but now we see on March 12,
1992, the Minister of Health perhaps is mellowing. It is true‑confessions time, and
perhaps when we hear the speech later on from the Minister of Northern Affairs
(Mr. Downey) we will hear a similar confession, or perhaps from the Minister of
Finance (Mr. Manness) himself, or any of the dwindling number of Conservative
members who predate to those days in which they were in opposition.
I wonder if any of the new members of the
government side have actually looked at some of the comments that were made, as
admitted to, by their own Minister of Health on the front benches, because I
find it interesting that a number of members again said, oh, well, the
opposition is only trying to be negative.
I can say, Mr. Speaker, I remember those speeches. I remember the now First Minister (Mr.
Filmon) giving a speech, and I calculated that in a speech that he gave on the
budget‑‑I believe it was in the mid‑80s‑‑I
actually calculated that out of all the paragraphs, only two of them were
positive, and they made reference to the Speaker and other officers of the
House. Every single other one of the
paragraphs was negative, and the speeches I was able to come up with were also
equally negative and, not only that, were completely devoid of any suggestions,
any ideas. You know what the Conservatives used to say at the time, any time that
they were asked what they would do? It
was: Call an election, call an election.
Well, Mr. Speaker, there was that call
often made by Conservative members, in fact I think by the Minister of Northern
Affairs (Mr. Downey) himself. I will say
that I will now say the same thing, and we have a chance to do it here in terms
of the province without going to the full expense of a 57‑seat election, which
I am certainly prepared to do. I know
all members of our caucus would love to see an election right now.
I challenge this government, if they think
this is a good budget, to at least call the by‑election in Crescentwood
and take it to the people in Crescentwood in a 35‑day by‑election
to ensure, first of all, that the people of Crescentwood have the opportunity
to be represented in this Legislature and, second of all, that we have a
referendum on the budget. Call an
election in Crescentwood.
* (2150)
An Honourable Members: We will.
Mr. Ashton: We will.
And I ask the Finance minister, when?
Hon. Clayton Manness
(Minister of Finance: When a few more Tim Sales
come out of the hiding.
Mr. Ashton: When a few more Tim Sales come out of the
hiding, Mr. Speaker. I note that the
Finance minister does not mention that he will urge his Premier to call a by‑election. We know they do not want to test this budget
or the performance of this government in a by‑election or an election of
any kind.
I found in going back over the last number
of years and particularly watching the evolution of the Minister of Finance, it
shows to me that there were a couple of people who perhaps were better
observers of conservatives and conservative parties than I was. George F. Will, an American commentator once
said: They define themselves in terms of what they oppose.
Well, if anybody cares to look at‑‑[interjection]
Mr. Speaker, the Finance minister is now saying what he is opposed to. I remember the days when he was opposed to
what he called a high deficit of $500 million.
In this budget he is going to have a real deficit in excess of $500
million. I remember those days, and I
compare them to today. I believe this is
part of the difficulty that the Conservatives have had in
Now they are a government; they have tried
that now. We heard earlier the Minister
of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mrs. McIntosh) attacking the previous
government. Well, they are the previous
government. This is their second
term. They have been in government since
1988. There was an election in 1990. When she is attacking the previous
government, she is attacking the previous Conservative government. Let her understand the facts.
Mr. Speaker, because it is becoming more
and more tiresome as we approach four years now since the election of this
government, four years, the fifth budget of the Minister of Finance, this Minister
of Finance still believes that he can run against the previous NDP government. He believes he can do that, but he knows full
well that he inherited a surplus from Eugene Kostyra, the Minister of Finance,
and has admitted so. He knows that as we
go into his fifth budget.
I said this across the floor the other
day, that this is not the Minister of Finance's budget. I do not believe the Minister of Finance can,
with a straight face, after all the comments he has made in this House, say
that he is pleased with a budget that really has a high deficit, has funding
increases that probably will not be sufficient, that we know will not be
sufficient to keep services in place, and has no significant expenditure on job
creation, Mr. Speaker.
The NDP government budgets during the last
recession, in 1982, 1983, 1984, at least made an effort in terms of job creation. This government has made none, and he knows
that. As I said, that is part of the
problem. We are seeing increasingly that
this government tries now to be running against
How much good did it do them? In the
I will say that in my speech that I have
no hesitation on giving firm advice to the Minister of Finance and not just criticism,
something that was never the mark of a Conservative opposition. I have no difficulty in doing that, because I
think what we have to do is recognize what is happening globally.
I must say, Mr. Speaker, that we live in
times where history is accelerated. I find
it unfortunate that I really believe members opposite have no interest from
learning from that. The Minister of
Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mrs. McIntosh) earlier, I think, was the best
example of that, with the same old tired 1950s Red‑baiting rhetoric. She had the nerve 30 years after that was
discredited in this province, in
I do not know what planet she has been on
for the last 20 or 30 years, but the types of economies that have had social democratic
governments have been
You know, I found another quote that I
think is probably of interest to this minister because‑‑this was
written in the time when it was not as progressive as today, in 1656, by James Harrington: No man‑‑of course, today we would
be more progressive and say "no person"‑‑can be a
politician except to be first a historian or a traveller, for except he can see
what must be or what may be, he is no politician.
What must be, or what may be, from
history, from what is happening today.
What is happening? I believe, Mr.
Speaker, that what is happening is an interesting acceleration of history. Just look at what is happening in
Well, the member opposite talks about
socialism. Is George Bush a
socialist? George Bush who now is
finding that he is collapsing in support; in
There is another more disturbing trend
though, Mr. Speaker, if one looks at what is happening, and that is the rise of
fascism in eastern Europe. For those who
doubt that, they should travel and see what is happening. The rise of fascism in Russia‑‑they
should see the rise of fascism in
Mr. Speaker, it is time to recognize the
broader picture in what is happening and the fact that this government must
judge all its actions in terms of that broader international context. I will in
my comments tomorrow go further in outlining to this government the kinds of
errors of judgment they are making, the fundamental errors of judgment, and how
they are missing the currents of world history, and how they are going to unsuccessfully
turn us into an island, a declining island, of the kind of Reaganite,
Thatcherite policies of the 1980s that are increasingly being discredited
throughout the world and, first and foremost, in the United States where George
Bush, the inheritor of Ronald Reagan and his policies, is now finding himself
in a fight for his political life. So I
will outline those concerns tomorrow as I continue on the Budget Debate.
Mr. Speaker: The hour being 10 p.m., when this matter is
again before the House the honourable member for Thompson will have 24 minutes
remaining. This House now adjourns and
stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow (Tuesday).