LEGISLATIVE
ASSEMBLY OF
Monday,
July 5, 1993
The House met at 1:30
p.m.
PRAYERS
ROUTINE
PROCEEDINGS
PRESENTING
PETITIONS
Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin
Flon): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of
Patricia Weese, Marilyn Randall, Karen Crozier and others requesting the
Premier (Mr. Filmon) to consider making as a major priority the establishment
of a solvent abuse treatment facility in northern
Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The
Pas): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of
Brian Johnson, Pam Berthelette, Edna Hudson and others requesting the Premier
(Mr. Filmon) to consider making as a major priority the establishment of a
solvent abuse treatment facility in northern
Mr. Gregory Dewar
(Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of
Ralph Flett, Angele Flett, Charlene Mason and others requesting the Premier
(Mr. Filmon) to consider making as a major priority the establishment of a
solvent abuse treatment facility in northern
* * *
Mr. John Plohman
(Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of
Vern Tocher, Anne Peterson, Terri Rampton and others requesting the Minister of
Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the
level it was prior to the 1993‑94 budget.
Mr. Conrad Santos
(Broadway): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of
Joyce Fraser, Clifford Morris, Leah Link and others requesting the Minister of
Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the
level it was prior to the 1993‑1994 budget.
Mr. Clif Evans
(Interlake): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of
Therese Vandale, Penny Auch, Dennis Auch and others requesting the Minister of
Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the
level it was prior to the 1993‑94 budget.
Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the
honourable member (Mr. Hickes). It
complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with
the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? (agreed)
Mr. Clerk (William
Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of
the
WHEREAS there is a very serious solvent
abuse problem in northern
WHEREAS according to the RCMP over 100
crimes in Thompson alone in 1992 were linked to solvent abuse; and
WHEREAS there are no facilities to deal
with solvent abuse victims in northern
WHEREAS for over three years, the
provincial government failed to proclaim the private member's anti‑sniff
bill passed by the Legislature and is now proposing to criminalize minors
buying solvents even though there are no treatment facilities in northern
WHEREAS for nine years, the 25 Chiefs who
comprise the Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak, supported by medical officials,
police and the area Member of Parliament, have proposed a pilot treatment project
known as the Native Youth Medicine Lodge; and
WHEREAS successive federal Ministers of
Health have failed to respond to this issue with a commitment; and
WHEREAS the
WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray
that the Legislative Assembly of
PRESENTING
REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES
Mrs. Louise Dacquay
(Chairperson of Committees): Mr.
Speaker, I beg to present the Third Report of the Committee on Law Amendments.
Mr. Clerk (William
Remnant): Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments
presents the following as its Third Report.
Your committee met on Tuesday, June 29,
1993, at 7 p.m. in Room 254 of the
Your committee has considered:
Bill 14‑‑The Personal Property
Security and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi concernant les suretes relatives
aux biens personnels et apportant des modifications correlatives a d'autres
lois
and
has agreed to report the same with the following amendments:
MOTION:
THAT subsection 24(1) of the bill be amended
(a) in the part preceding clause (a), by
striking out "or repossession" and substituting ", repossession
or seizure"; and
(b) in the part following clause (f), by
striking out "or repossession" and substituting ", repossession
or seizure".
MOTION:
THAT subsection 49(3) of the bill be amended
by striking out "or the condominium plan".
MOTION:
THAT subsection 49(4) of the bill be amended
by striking out "or condominium plan".
Your committee has also considered:
Bill 39‑‑The Provincial Court
Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur la Cour provinciale
and
has agreed to report the same without amendment.
All of which is respectfully submitted.
Mrs. Dacquay: I move, seconded by the honourable member for
Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine), that the report of the committee be received.
Motion agreed to.
MINISTERIAL
STATEMENTS
Hon. Gerald Ducharme
(Minister of Government Services): I have a
statement for the House.
Mr. Speaker, I have a statement in regard
to EMO weekend operations.
Heavy rains totalling over 210 millimetres
or more than 8 inches in parts of the
I declared a state of emergency for those
affected areas at approximately 10:30 last night. Our primary concern was and is the lives of
the residents. By declaring an emergency,
we were able to quickly bring together all necessary resources from the
provincial government department to meet the immediate needs of the
residents. Provincial officials are
presently working through the provincial emergency co‑ordination centre
that was established last night in
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(1335)
As a result of the flooding, residents who
were at
Communities north of
Information on exact flooding details is
difficult to pin down at this time because of the telecommunication problems
and lack of access to flooded areas.
Natural Resources personnel in the area report that major flooding
problems appear to be presently confined to roads and bridges. Showers are continuing in the region, but
there is no further word on additional communities evacuating. The provincial air service is on standby to
provide aircraft if any airlifts are necessary.
Mr. Speaker, Highway 10 is closed between
Bowsman and Highway 60 in between Ashville and Cowan. Highway 20 is closed between Camperville and
Cowan, and Highway 83 is closed from Roblin to
Details of damage to communities are
preliminary, and it will likely take several days before complete assessments
can be made. I would like to add,
however, that as soon as it is practical, I and some of my colleagues will tour
the area to get a first‑hand look at the situation.
A general inquiry line has been
established at the EMO command centre in
I would also at this time, Mr. Speaker,
like to update the House on the
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (
It is unfortunate that there is such poor
communication and such uncertainty amongst many of the communities,
particularly since there is no telephone service in many of the areas, and with
a number of bridges washed out, there are many families who are very concerned
about their families and are unable to get any information into these areas.
I have to wonder whether cutbacks in
Government Services and in various departments has had any impact, particularly
in the area of communications and whether if there were those people who were
in place‑‑the other area being water resources‑‑whether
some of these communication problems might not be there.
There is going to be a tremendous impact
on the area with the loss of bridges.
The minister says seven bridges, and there are communities that are
completely isolated right now which causes a lot of problems, and there is
going to be a tremendous burden on municipalities. There is no way that the people in the area
can afford the costs of what has been created by this downpour of rain.
I guess I have to reflect on the time when
we were looking very seriously at headwater storages in both the Porcupine and
in the
I wish that the government would
reconsider, and when this is all over, re‑evaluate whether or not those
headwater storages should have been in place.
I hope that they will put in all the necessary services so that the
people who are affected by this high water, and, also, the people affected in
the forest fire areas‑‑that this government will really re‑evaluate
what their government cutbacks have done and what their cutbacks in services
have done to people in rural and northern
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Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader
of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I want
to thank the minister responsible for the Emergency Measures Organization for
his report today.
We, of course, all in this House are
extremely concerned that these residents in these communities be treated as
efficiently as possible and that the unfortunate circumstances be minimized for
them. Anything that we as, I think,
members of this Legislature can do we should do to ensure that these naturally
created problems do not cause any further dislocation for these people, or
inconvenience, than possible.
Mr. Speaker, we will look forward to
further reports from the minister. I am
sure from time to time as this problem is solved, he will report. We look forward to that, and we want to
assure him of our co‑operation in this House from our party in ensuring
that these individuals are given every opportunity that we can offer them to
minimize the effects of this very serious problem. That goes both for the
flooding as well as for the forest fires in
I note that the minister indicates here
that showers are continuing in the region.
I guess we can all hope that maybe that will end and make things go a
little quicker in terms of getting these people back to their homes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
TABLING OF
REPORTS
Hon. James McCrae
(Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Department
of Justice I am tabling today Supplementary Information for Legislative Review
of our 1993‑94 Departmental Expenditure Estimates.
Introduction
of Guests
Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the
attention of honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us
today Mr. Sergio Aguilera, who is the Consul General of Mexico.
On behalf of all honourable members, I
would like to welcome you here this afternoon.
ORAL
QUESTION PERIOD
Children's
Dental Health Program
Cost
Benefits
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, last week, some 45 staff were
laid off by the provincial government, working in the Children's Dental
Program. This represents 90 percent of
the former program for children in rural and northern
Mr. Speaker, we have raised a number of
questions before to the Minister of Health without receiving any answers, quite
frankly, as to the rationale of this decision.
The Premier (Mr. Filmon) was copied on a
letter, on May 8 of this year, saying that this will not in fact save money but
in fact will cost some $22 million for an $11‑million saving over three
years. The government has a copy of that
study from Dr. Cooney, who is the president of the Canadian Society of Public
Health Dentists. The Premier has a copy
of that.
I would like to ask the Premier: Has he received a response from his own
Minister of Health about the fact that people are saying it is going to cost
more because kids, with parents, will have to be moved out of remote
communities to see the dentist, as opposed to the dental health nurses and the
dental hygienists going into the community?
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, that discussion has been subject
to a number of discussions I have had with individuals currently delivering the
program. We hope over the next period of
time that in collaboration and co‑operation with school divisions, with
the Manitoba Dental Association and the Manitoba Dental Auxiliaries, they may
well come to an equitable solution given the fact, Sir, that we have made the
decision to eliminate the funding for the treatment portion of the program and
maintain the preventative funding, the maintenance of good dental health
funding throughout the province.
Mr. Speaker, I would expect that over the
next number of weeks, the respective organizations might have an opportunity to
craft a program much on the line of correspondence I know my honourable friend
the Leader of the New Democrats has received, wherein a superintendent of a
school division has expressed interest in whether there can be maintenance of a
similarly delivered program paid for by the parents of students who are
receiving that treatment service.
Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health did not
answer the question about savings versus cost, the issue of remote communities,
the cost of transferring people to the dentist as opposed to staff going to the
communities.
The minister has received a letter, which
I have received a copy of, from the Cree Nation tribal health centre where they
talk about the offloading‑‑offloading, of course, which is also
criticized by many school divisions across
The letter goes on to say that this does
not make any sense from a cost perspective or a dentistry perspective for the
people in these communities.
I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon): Has he received any assurance from his
Minister of Health that these cuts, the savings of some $11 million in three
years, will not in fact incur greater costs in other departments of government
which will in fact be higher than the alleged savings that the government is
making, also reducing dramatically the services to children in rural and remote
communities, many of whom do not have the same kind of facilities for children
for prevention as we have in some of the urban centres?
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(1345)
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend has the
same correspondence that I have received at the ministry, and we are working
with those organizations to assure a smooth transition so they can continue to
offer the education, the prevention program.
Now, Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend
makes the case that there will be a cost to individual parents. We have never denied that fact, that in terms
of now having the treatment program discontinued and only the very important
maintenance, education and prevention program sustained, that parents whose
children need treatment such as a cavity filled, it will now be at the parents'
expense, the same as it is currently in Winnipeg, in Brandon and in other parts
of the province that did not have complete access to the program that most of
rural and northern Manitoba did.
Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the Premier received
correspondence in early May. When I
asked the question, the minister, who had received the same correspondence on
June 9, had said that he had just received the information and he would look at
it shortly. Well, he had received it four weeks earlier.
Mr. Speaker, the question is: Is it going to be more expensive with less
quality of dental services to remote communities and rural communities? The program is cut. The head of the preventative services for
dental services, Dr. Cooney, is saying he has calculated it will cost
more. Groups in the communities and
remote communities are now saying it is going to cost more. School divisions are saying you are
offloading this program on us and we cannot do it anymore.
Mr. Speaker, my question to the Premier
(Mr. Filmon): Has he received any
empirical evidence that this in fact will save money for the government? Will it not cost more money to the government
and provide much less quality of service for remote children and children in
rural
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend keeps
talking about no savings in the program.
The taxpayers of
Now, Mr. Speaker, the taxpayers of
Manitoba, whether they be the single parents that my honourable friends the New
Democrats advocate for more spending on, will not have to face the additional
taxes necessary to maintain a $3‑million program in treatment. The same people that my honourable friend
advocates for will not be asked to pay taxes to deliver this program only to
rural and northern
Mr. Speaker, the important component of
treatment, education and prevention will be maintained. The parents in each of those jurisdictions
will now be responsible for maintaining treatment of active caries or other
treatments that were formerly undertaken under the program. The prevention, education, the fluoridation,
the fluoride rinse will remain.
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Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin
Flon): First of all, Mr. Speaker, I want to thank
the minister responsible for the Emergency Measures Organization for his update
with respect to, particularly in my case, the fire in Flin Flon.
Mr. Speaker, the minister and his
department acknowledged earlier this week that the firefighting effort in
Mr. Speaker, there are many in Lynn Lake
and surrounding communities who are particularly concerned that this
government, because of budget constraints, because of cutbacks in Natural
Resources, are not actioning fires that could be prevented and which could be
contained very easily.
My question to the Minister of Natural
Resources: Will he now review the
departmental policy which prevented the actioning of this fire and which
ultimately is going to cost the taxpayers in the
Hon. Harry Enns
(Minister of Natural Resources): Mr.
Speaker, let me in the strongest possible terms categorically deny the
implication of the honourable member for Flin Flon.
The Department of Natural Resources has
never, I repeat, never been denied the necessary fiscal resources to combat the
forest fire situation or indeed the kind of situation that we will face now
with flood situations in certain parts of the country.
The decisions that were made with respect
to that fire are the kinds of decisions made by very capable, professional
firefighters. A judgment call was made,
as we make many judgment calls. For the
benefit of the honourable member, who really knows better, having represented a
northern seat for many years, we do not action every fire. There are many fires we do not action, and
the former Minister of Natural Resources knows that.
These are judgment calls made by
professional firefighters. They are made with the best information at hand on
the day. As in anything, it is easy to
second‑guess with the benefit of hindsight, but I categorically deny that
there were any budgetary reasons for the actions that we took with respect to
the fire that he refers to at
Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, people in the minister's
department predicted this a year ago.
Mr. Speaker, the question is: Why was the fire action not‑‑given
its proximity to a community, given its proximity to power lines which are
essential for the operation of the community, why was this decision made?
Will the minister now acknowledge that it
was made because of the policies of the government, the cutbacks in the
Department of Natural Resources, and it is now going to cost taxpayers five or
10 times as much because of the minister's decision?
Mr. Enns: Mr. Speaker, for the better part, certainly
for all of the part of the '80s that this gentleman, the member for Flin Flon
was part of the administration, the base fire budget, the fire department, was
some $6 million. This government raised
that to $8 million. That is the base
minimum pay, and that is in effect today, 20 or 30 percent more than what it
was during the entire time that he was in administration.
In addition to that, of course, the extra
suppression fund comes in, which is drawn upon without any restrictions when
faced with emergency situations, as we faced, Mr. Speaker, in '89 when we had
the very terrific and horrendous fire situation throughout Manitoba.
Mr. Speaker, I refute absolutely the
suggestion‑‑and I suspect, and I am rather disappointed that a
former minister of the Crown would make that kind of an accusation with respect
to those people who are making their best judgment calls in different
situations. It is very difficult to
predict the action of a fire when the countryside is dry and when you have 40‑
to 50‑miles‑an‑hour winds blowing up. They can alter the nature of a fire within a
12‑ or 24‑hour period.
Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, for a minister who carried the
hatchet for his department for the last three years, I am surprised at that
defence.
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(1355)
Impact of
Reduced Workweek
Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): My question is to the minister of the
Emergency Measures Organization.
Given the fact that community residents,
relatives, friends, people who are concerned about the community of Lynn Lake,
have not been able to get in touch with EMO officials, with departmental
officials, with the registration centres, because of the complete lack of a
communications network, will the minister responsible for EMO be now asking for
an interdepartmental investigation as to what impact the days off‑‑this
is the first Friday that the civil servants were told to take the day off‑‑what
impact those reductions in service have had to the people of Lynn Lake and the
people of Leaf Rapids in terms of the disastrous fire that took place near Lynn
Lake?
Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister
of Government Services): Without accepting
any of the member's preamble‑‑too bad the member does not know what
was going on up there, Mr. Speaker.
EMO itself‑‑if he wants to
read other than newspapers or whatever he wants to read, our department up
there has conducted a very good evacuation.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the
people in the surrounding areas for coming forward and volunteering their
efforts to make these people as comfortable as possible. These people will be back very, very
shortly. I expressed in my ministerial
statement today the reason for the partial delay. Does he want me to have those
people come back to
North
American Free Trade Agreement
Government
Position
Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader
of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Premier.
Yesterday, the Premier met with the Prime
Minister. He indicated, going into the
meeting and in fact leaving the meeting, that trade issues were high on his
agenda for discussion.
Two years ago, the government released a
very strong and clear position that unless six conditions were met they would
not support the North American Free Trade Agreement. The minister at the time said the province would
not support a North American Free Trade Agreement unless all six conditions are
met. If these conditions are not met,
the agreement will be opposed. They are
our bottom line.
Mr. Speaker, clearly, at least three of
those conditions have not been met in the agreement recently ratified by the
House of Commons.
Did the First Minister communicate
unequivocally this government's rejection of the North American Free Trade
Agreement, as currently written, to the Prime Minister?
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): Mr. Speaker, if the Leader of the Liberal
Party had listened to my comments, they were with respect to issues that will
come up at the G‑7 conference which is primarily the GATT round. In that respect, I urged the Prime Minister
to make that her No. 1 priority because a resolution to the GATT round would
help farmers of
I might say that in that respect, that
recommendation got the support of every First Minister around the table from
the provinces and territories, and the Prime Minister agreed that it ought to
be her No. 1 priority in her discussions with the G‑7 nations in
Mr. Edwards: This minister and in fact all members of this
House have repeatedly indicated the importance of the North American Free Trade
negotiations and now the agreement. This
minister felt it was so important that he articulated a position and went on to
say that if any agreement fails to meet any one of these conditions, it is an
agreement we will oppose.
Now, very recently, that agreement was
ratified in the House of Commons, just weeks ago. This was an opportunity to express, if
nothing else, that this government now rejects that agreement.
Is the First Minister saying he did not
take the time and make the effort to communicate to the Prime Minister of this
country that he and this government and we in this Legislature reject that
agreement as currently written?
Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, I have said publicly, even as
recently as 10 days ago in
In specific, I spoke at some length about
President Clinton's initiatives on the two sidebar agreements on labour force
standards and environment, that those are critical to our support of any
agreement with respect to NAFTA, that as things stand, we do not support NAFTA
without those sidebar agreements and without addressing the issues we have laid
out in those six points.
That remains the position we take. It is a position that is communicated every
time we talk about NAFTA to those in the federal government, Mr. Speaker.
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(1400)
Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, obviously not every time,
because the minister has yet to tell us he told the Prime Minister that. It is interesting he communicates this to the
western governors but not to our Prime Minister.
Mr. Speaker, my question for the
Premier: Did he communicate that very
sentiment he has just communicated in this House to the new Prime Minister, and
if so, what was her response? If he has
not communicated that clearly, will he?
Will he table some letter where he has set it out to her? Will he communicate it to her immediately
that this province does not support that agreement as currently written?
Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, the federal government,
including the new Prime Minister, is very much aware of our position on this
issue. It has not changed.
Employment
Policy
Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The
Pas): Mr. Speaker, my questions are directed to the
Minister of Natural Resources.
Northerners in this province have for a
long time now some of the highest unemployment rates in the country. Nowhere is this more common than in
communities like
My question is: Why did this government fly up people from
southern
Hon. Harry Enns
(Minister of Natural Resources): Mr.
Speaker, currently we have only the particular fires in
We have, Mr. Speaker, an accomplished and
dedicated group of what we call fire attack groups that are on full‑time
staff with the department during the fire season, and they are employed where
they can be most efficiently used. Now,
some of them, no doubt‑‑because that is the nature of this
department, we bring together our foresters where they are required.
I remind the honourable member for The Pas
that fully 75 to 80 percent of the full‑time fire attack firefighters are
of aboriginal background, although some of them, as he points out, no doubt
come from some of the southern reserves.
Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Speaker, can the minister provide the
House with a breakout of the firefighters, what regions they came from in the
province, and what percentage of those firefighters come from the North and how
many are aboriginal people?
Mr. Enns: Mr. Speaker, I would be very pleased to do
that. I would suggest that the
appropriate time of doing that would be in the discussion of my Estimates that
I hope we will come to shortly.
Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Speaker, I knew the minister would not
answer the question, but I decided to ask anyway.
Firefighter
Transportation
Costs
Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The
Pas): My last question is: Can the minister then advise the House, by
way of a report, how much government is spending on airfares shipping those
people from southern
Hon. Harry Enns
(Minister of Natural Resources): Mr.
Speaker, these are all appropriate questions to be asked during the
consideration of the department's Estimates.
I will have officials with me at that time to answer those questions.
Disaster
Areas
Emergency
Medical Services
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (
What steps is this government taking to be
sure that there are emergency medical services provided in those areas? Is anybody going into those communities to
see that the proper services are provided, particularly since there are no
telephone services in those areas?
Hon. Gerald Ducharme
(Minister of Government Services): Mr.
Speaker, I can say to the individual, yes, that is the job of EMO, for the care
of the people in that particular area.
I just had my briefing at 12:30, and I am
inviting the member across the way to sit in on the director of EMO and he will
also brief her on the different areas and the different things they are doing
in those particular areas to make sure those people are looked after.
Disaster
Areas
Bridge/Highway
Repairs
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (
The No. 10 highway is a main road. Since several bridges have been taken out of
that road and completely crippled the area, I want to ask the Minister of
Highways if he is going to put in place emergency crews to help put those
bridges and repair to the No. 10 highway in place as soon as possible so we can
have access from that area. How soon can
we see some extra help in that area?
Hon. Albert Driedger
(Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, we have very capable people
working in the various departments and once the emergency actually developed
yesterday, our crews were all in place and have been working around the clock
to try and assess what is happening. We
are having meetings that are ongoing right at the present time to see exactly
what course of action we can take to provide the immediate service to be able
to get access into the area.
Mr. Speaker, I want to tell the member
though that it is still raining out there and that the problem has not ceased
at this stage of the game. It is still
escalating. We are tracking it, trying
to find out. I think it is upwards of 12
structures that basically have been washed out.
Further to the comments from the Minister
of Government Services (Mr. Ducharme), we have helicopters flying around
checking out to see whether there are isolated spots where people have been
isolated, where there are problems. We
will continue to do that, and we will be updating the House as further action
is required.
Disaster
Areas
Bridge/Highway
Repairs
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (
Hon. Gerald Ducharme
(Minister of Government Services): First of
all, to the member across the way, the municipalities have declared different areas
and that is why I as minister stepped in.
There is funding available to those municipalities. During that process of assessment of the
damages with all the departments, that will be taken into consideration, Mr.
Speaker.
No‑Fault
Auto Insurance
Tillinghast
Report Tabling Request
Mr. Reg Alcock
(Osborne): Mr. Speaker, as part of the examination of
the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation's plans to move to a no‑fault
program, the corporation asked the Tillinghast company to review the existing
data to see whether a modified form of tort would meet the same needs. That report was prepared for the
corporation. We are now about to enter
into a significant public debate on this question. I asked the House two weeks ago if the
minister would table that report. That
question was taken as notice at the time with an assurance from the minister
responsible for transportation that he felt that the minister would be prepared
to table a document.
I would like to ask the minister today if
that document is forthcoming.
Hon. Glen Cummings
(Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Public Insurance
Corporation Act): Mr. Speaker, the report was prepared based on
a number of assumptions. I suppose that the
question immediately arises, as is often the case in comparison between work
that is done by actuarial people, as to whether or not you agree with the
initial assumptions. Certainly, the work that was done was done for the
corporation to provide advice to the government, and I do not believe that
there is information there that would be particularly useful to the debate.
Mr. Alcock: That is a rather incredible statement. It is not up to the minister to make that
decision. There is a public debate about
to take place as this minister attempts to deprive people in this province of
their benefits under the insurance program.
I would like to ask him what he is afraid
of. Get the information on the table.
Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, it is not a matter of being
afraid of debating the issue. I would
hope that perhaps we could begin that debate in this Chamber. If fellow members would be prepared to put
their concerns on the table, I would be most anxious to debate those issues.
Mr. Alcock: Mr. Speaker, a public corporation paid for
this. I am prepared to debate this bill
anytime, as soon as the minister tables the information that he has based his
decision on.
Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, the member says he is prepared
to debate. I hope that when the bill is
called he will put his concerns on the table and I will respond to that debate.
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Home Care
Program
Impact
Service Reduction
Mr. Dave Chomiak
(Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health is
cutting off $3 million of homemaking services to the weakest and the most
vulnerable in our society. He talks
about how he will be increasing services in health care through provision of
more nursing services and attendant services, but he does not tell us that is
because he has closed hundreds and hundreds of beds and more of these services
will be required in the community.
Can the minister stop playing politics
with this issue and tell us, Mr. Speaker, how many Manitobans are going to be
cut off as a result of this $3‑million cutoff to homemaking services, and
how many hours are going to be lost by those Home Care support workers who
provide that service?
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, you know, I would appreciate it
if my honourable friend would take some of his own advice and come clean with
information on this because this is now about, oh, I do not know, maybe the
fifteenth time in Question Period I have dealt with this same issue. I dealt with it immediately after the budget
and several times during the Estimates process.
Now, Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend the
New Democrat, of course, does not want to acknowledge that the policy we are
carrying forward is the same one put in place in 1985 by Howard Pawley and the
NDP. That is not convenient for the
disinformation campaign the NDP want to try and run to get into government next
time.
But, Mr. Speaker, let me tell my
honourable friend how Home Care is changing.
Home Care is moving services away from the less intensive, i.e.,
housekeeping, i.e., simple meal preparation, i.e., laundry, as was started in
1985 by the New Democrats, and we are now able to provide more nursing
services, more Home Care assistant services, more Victorian Order of Nurses
services.
Now, Mr. Speaker, let me tell my
honourable friend just how much more:
1992 over 1991, 7.2 percent increase in home care attendants, registered
nursing up 15.5 percent, LPN up 20.7 percent, Victorian Order of Nurses up by
4.7 percent‑‑an increase, not a decrease.
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, that is the fifteenth time the
minister has refused to answer the question.
Mr. Speaker, my supplementary: As part of this expanded service, can the
minister advise whether the co‑ordinators of the Continuing Care Program
will now authorize only limited services to clients, so that if a dressing is
required to be changed twice a day, the nurse will only be required to do it
once, and family members will have to do it now the second time? Is that part of the continuing changes of
this so‑called expanded service?
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, again, the Continuing Care
Program, since its inception in the mid‑'70s, has been to be a service of
provision where there is not family able to undertake those services, where
there is not supportive services in the community able to help that individual. Home Care has been since its inception a
service of last resource after family has been called upon.
Now, Mr. Speaker, that has been consistent
since Home Care came in in the mid‑'70s.
It was consistent during the Howard Pawley years. That is why we have increased nursing
services by 20 percent, '92 over '91, in terms of the LPN service, by 15
percent in registered nursing services, and this year, we expect to have
further increases in nursing services to assist people living independently in their
homes.
APM
Management Consultants
Home Care
Program
Mr. Dave Chomiak
(Kildonan): My final supplementary for the minister who
has now confirmed another cutback in Home Care:
Can the minister advise this House whether or not his $3.9 million plus
$800,000 in expenses, tax‑free consultant whom he has hired‑‑will
he confirm to this House whether or not she will be dealing with Home Care
which is one of the four or five projects, and whether or not these cutbacks
are being made before he signs the final contract so he can do the same thing
with Home Care that they did with St. Boniface‑‑cut out the program
or parts of the program, and then she will take credit for the cuts?
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, if someone watching this
Question Period was to listen to my honourable friend's preamble, they might
conclude, an outside observer might conclude that my honourable friend is quite
dishonest in the way he presents his questions, but, Sir, of course, we cannot
do that in the House.
Point of
Order
Mr. Steve Ashton
(Opposition House Leader): On a point of order,
Mr. Speaker, it is very clear, in fact Beauchesne has many citations, and under
489, the use of the word "dishonest" is most definitely
unparliamentary.
I would like to ask that you not only call
him to order on that but also ask that for once he answer a question put
forward by members of our caucus about Home Care, and not resort to those kinds
of unparliamentary tactics instead of answering the question.
Mr. Speaker: The honourable member is quite correct. On the point of order raised,
"dishonest," by the way, has been ruled unparliamentary, one, two,
three‑‑
An Honourable Member: And?
Mr. Speaker: I will tell you "and" how many
other times in a minute.
It has been ruled unparliamentary seven
times, and it has been ruled parliamentary once, so it is not often members
have an opportunity to get away with it.
It is on both lists.
Again, I will caution the members to pick
and choose your words very carefully for the fact that the viewing public is
paying attention.
* * *
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, that is exactly the point I was
trying to make, because my honourable friend, in now repudiating the policies,
the assessment that professionals have undertaken since the mid‑'70s in
establishing home care services by following that policy set up originally by
the NDP, re‑enforced by our government in the late '70s, continued by the
Pawley administration, with changes as I mentioned in 1985, my honourable
friend stands up on his hind legs and concludes that is another cutback. That is always what the program has done.
Mr. Speaker, let me tell my honourable
friend that nursing services have increased‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please.
Child
Protection Centre
Surplus
Restoration
Mr. Doug Martindale
(Burrows): Mr. Speaker, when the Minister of Family
Services released his budget Estimates in March, I predicted that the first
consequence of a 4 percent reduction to Child and Family Services agencies
would be that preventative programs would be cut.
The latest example of this is the Child
Protection Centre, where, when this government clawed back their surplus, they
cut staff in the area of education and training on abuse.
I would like to ask the Minister of Family
Services whether he is going to restore this funding, especially when he meets
with their staff this week, or whether he believes that it is not necessary and
he does not believe in prevention and, therefore, puts children at risk.
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer
(Minister of Family Services): Mr.
Speaker, the member has forgotten over the weekend that I answered this
question last Wednesday. I indicated
that the surplus, which appears to be different than was first reported, will
be positively addressed, and we will restore that money.
Mr. Martindale: Could the Minister of Family Services tell
the House if he plans to restore all the accumulated surplus that was clawed
back and if then they will be able to rehire staff that have been laid off or
hire new staff to replace them?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, in making very difficult budget
decisions across government and within this department, there have been
occasions when we are asking groups that receive funding from the government,
as part of their funding for the current year, to use up their surplus, a
surplus in this case which has been in place there since 1988.
Mr. Martindale: Mr. Speaker, I believe the minister is
indicating that all of it will not be restored.
I would like to ask the Minister of Finance
(Mr. Manness) whether the decisions around the Child Protection Centre are
being made by Treasury Board or by the Minister of Family Services since the
Family Support branch had an agreement with the Child Protection Centre as to
how this surplus money would be spent.
Who is making decisions around the Child Protection Centre? What is going to be the result? Are they going to restore these unfair
decisions?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, I indicated last week, that we
place a tremendous value on the work that the Child Protection Centre does in
the continuum of services between the agencies and the department. The issue that was raised was an error over
the amount of the surplus. We are now
determining that surplus was not at the level that it was first reported to us,
and we have indicated that we will make up that shortfall.
Emergency
Phone Service
Mr. Steve Ashton
(Thompson): Mr. Speaker, the last week members of the
community in Thompson have been working very hard as hosts for the many
dislocated people from
I would like to ask the minister
responsible for EMO if he has reviewed the circumstances surrounding the cutoff
of emergency phone service in many northern communities. Operator service, which is the equivalent of
911 for northern communities, has not been in place certainly since
yesterday. Can the minister indicate
whether there are any backup plans in place to provide that kind of service in
the communities that as of this morning still did not have that emergency phone
service?
*
(1420)
Hon. Gerald Ducharme
(Minister of Government Services): First of
all, Mr. Speaker, these were unusual circumstances. The optics that go into area‑‑the
fibre optics were damaged. There was a
temporary system set up to accommodate that.
I again, on behalf of the member, thank the people of Thompson. As the member knows, each community develops
its own emergency preparedness. There is a contract between the government and
individual municipalities, and Thompson worked very well.
However, as indicated, the people will be
back in
We are always a little leery of this type
of thing happening and the unusual circumstances. In this particular case, it did happen.
Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, MTS recently changed the
switching system to move exchanges from switching in on operator service in
northern communities to a province‑wide system that results in operator
service being provided from southern
I would like to ask the Minister of Government
Services whether this in any way, shape or form led to the circumstances
whereby there was no, and I repeat, no emergency service, no operator service,
the equivalent of 911 in northern communities yesterday or today. In fact, Mr. Speaker, all that northerners
received in the way of an indication there was a problem, was a recorded
message from MTS saying that lines were busy when in fact those lines were not
in place to operators.
I would like to ask what the situation is,
how that developed, Mr. Speaker, in northern
Mr. Ducharme: First of all, it was the fibre optic cable
that went down, Mr. Speaker. It severed,
and there was temporary service for those people in the area. As he knows, a temporary service, you call in
and you might get a busy or a no answer.
I suggest to the people in the area, keep trying that number because of
that temporary service, but there is a temporary service in the area.
Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I tried 25 times last night to
get operator service, which is the emergency service, and could not get
through.
I would like to ask the minister again‑‑and
I repeat again to the minister that operator service in northern communities is
the equivalent of 911‑‑why were there no contingency plans put in
place to inform residents of northern communities who might have faced an
emergency circumstance, of how to communicate with those providing emergency
services, to provide a backup to the equivalent of 911, Mr. Speaker?
Mr. Ducharme: Mr. Speaker, it is too bad the member for
Thompson did not think about that previous to 1988.
First of all, we have a temporary backup
system. Mr. Speaker, I just finished
explaining to him that there is a study on telecommunications. (interjection) It is unusual the member
for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) is questioning from his seat, who did not show any
concern at all or ask me any questions this morning in regard to his particular
area.
Mr. Speaker, there was a temporary system
set up. It was an unusual circumstance,
and we have looked after that situation.
Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.
ORDERS OF
THE DAY
Hon. Clayton Manness
(Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I wonder
if there is a willingness to waive private members' hour?
Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to waive private
members' hour? Is there leave?
Some Honourable Members: No.
Mr. Speaker: No.
Leave is denied.
House
Business
Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I would like to announce a
number of standing committee times.
On House business, I would like to
announce that the Standing Committee on Economic Development will meet at 9
a.m. tomorrow in Room 254 to consider Manitoba Mineral Resources; that the
Standing Committee on Law Amendments will meet tomorrow at 9 a.m., Room 255, to
consider Bill 16; that tomorrow at 7 p.m., the Standing Committee on Public
Utilities and Natural Resources will meet to consider the Annual Report of the
Crown Corporations Council. That is in
Room 254.
Also tomorrow, at 7 p.m., the Standing
Committee on Economic Development will meet in Room 255 to consider the Annual
Report of the Manitoba Development Corporation.
Wednesday, July 7, at 7 p.m., in Room 254,
the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will meet to
consider the Annual Report of the Liquor Control Commission. Also that evening
at that same time, in Room 255, the Standing Committee on Law Amendments will
meet to consider Bills 3 and 29.
Thursday, 9 a.m. Room 255, the Standing
Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will meet to consider the
Annual Report of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation; and at nine, that
same morning in Room 254, the Standing Committee on Public Accounts will meet
to consider the Annual Report of the Public Accounts '91‑92, '92‑93.
Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the honourable
government House leader for that information.
Mr. Manness: I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice
(Mr. McCrae), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve
itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to her Majesty.
Motion presented.
MATTER OF
GRIEVANCE
Ms. Avis Gray
(Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, my colleagues and I in the
Liberal caucus have attempted to be supportive of this government's health care
reform and, certainly, have attempted to provide constructive criticism where
possible.
My former colleague, the member for
Kildonan, Dr. Gulzar Cheema, did a lot in endorsing this government on their
reform initiatives. My other colleagues
and I have done the same in an attempt to provide constructive criticism.
Mr. Speaker, the record of the Legislature
will show some very positive comments, some praise, and support of not only the
initiatives of the health care reform, but certainly of all of the principles
of the reform as started by this government. Those principles are outlined in
Quality Health for Manitobans, The Action Plan.
I rise today, Mr. Speaker, because I
cannot in good conscience continue to listen to the Minister of Health (Mr.
Orchard) attempt to justify his change in policy in the Home Care Program, and
I cannot continue to listen to this Minister of Health not answer questions
posed by the opposition and deal with the real issues respecting Home Care and
the change in policy.
I am not only concerned about this actual
change in policy of homemaking services within the program, but I am also
concerned because this change in policy, I believe, contravenes the spirit and
intent of the health reform action plan as laid out by this government.
I am also concerned, because of the
minister's apparent unwillingness to answer some of our questions throughout
the Estimates process and in Question Period, about the impact of these changes
to the program, about any type of analysis of what these program changes will
require and also his apparent willingness to not deal with the issues but,
rather, to skirt around the issues and to sidetrack them.
Mr. Speaker, I rise on a grievance, and I
wanted to begin to talk just very briefly about the history of the Home Care
Program. Not to go into a lot of detail,
but suffice it to say, the Home Care Program here in
In 1972, it was referred to as Care
Services. It was a centralized program
in the city of
*
(1430)
The idea was to develop a continuum of services
that could allow the aged and infirm and some younger disabled to remain in
their homes, in their communities, by having some support services.
Now, I know the minister has mentioned in
this House‑‑and he is correct‑‑says that home care is
to be seen as an alternative, as a last resort to assistance from family. That is true, Mr. Speaker. That has always been the case in the Home
Care Program, where we ask that family provide services and support to the aged
and infirm, to the younger disabled and then Home Care, as a program, kicks in
when that is no longer possible.
The approach to home care services is
certainly seen over the last 10 years as a trend, where now we are providing
services to more and more complicated, more and more complex cases in the
community, whether those complex cases be medically fragile children, where we
are now providing services in the community. Five years ago, 10 years ago,
those children did not survive very long in hospital, so there was no need to
provide a service. Now those medically
fragile children are not only surviving longer, they are moving home from
hospital and are able to be supported in the community.
We have also seen a trend toward more of
the younger disabled individuals, again, who are able to move out of
institutions, not be in personal care homes, and to live semi‑independently
in the community.
We have also seen a trend, Mr. Speaker, of
course, of people who are living longer.
People now are wanting to spend longer in their homes. We are starting to see fewer individuals who
are wanting to move into personal care homes at a younger age, and we are
seeing people who want to remain in their homes. They are able to do that with the supports of
the Home Care Program.
In 1985‑‑and the minister certainly
has indicated this himself time and time and time again‑‑the
Support Services to Seniors Program was a program that was developed by the
former administration, by the New Democratic government. This was a service that was basically
developed by the government where a number of staff would work with community
groups, and they would assist community groups in developing nonprofit support
services in the community.
In fact, Mr. Speaker, it was really rural
Manitoba who had a headstart or really moved ahead in that area in terms of
developing a number of nonprofit services, whether those services be home
maintenance services, yard cleaning, whether those services be meal programs
such as congregate meal programs or whether those support services be friendly
visiting and those types of social support services. Rural
The City of
Mr. Speaker, the northwest part of the
city of
Now, at that same time, when those support
services were developed‑‑and the services in rural Manitoba, the
same nonprofit services were well on their way‑‑it was determined
by the then administration, the NDP government, and by the senior bureaucrats
that there should be a careful review of all of the individuals who were
currently on home care who basically received a minimum amount of service, and
that minimum amount of service was basically defined as receiving homemaking services
every other week or once a week or once a month. There was a careful review and analysis of
all of those particular cases.
At the same time, Mr. Speaker, we also saw
a move of the senior management of the Department of Health to encourage, to support
and to ensure that the case co‑ordinators who were spending time in the
community working with the elderly were doing a good job of assessing people as
to whether they were actually eligible for the Home Care Program, even for the
homemaking service.
So there was actually quite a bit of
review done, and it was felt in a number of situations that individuals who
were receiving homemaking services in fact could receive that service through
family, through relatives, and they were taken off the Home Care Program. So that process was in place in 1985 or '86.
At the same time, with the advent in the
north part of the city of the Support Services to Seniors, there was a
deliberate move‑‑and I do not use that word "deliberate"
negatively, but there was a deliberate move to look at that home maintenance
program, and for those individuals who were on home care and did not have
family, did not have supports, that we would suggest to those individuals that
they receive the services of this nonprofit Support Services program, which
basically provided yard maintenance, housecleaning, some meal preparation, some
assistance in laundry, et cetera. So
that began in 1986.
The minister has certainly talked about
that in his comments in Estimates and in response to questions in the House,
and what he says is very correct. What
we have seen occur, however, in 1993, is another shift in policy direction on
the part of this government, and I think to some extent the minister recognizes
this, although I am not sure he is really prepared to come out and say exactly
that there has been a change. The
minister likes to say, well, it is the same; we are still providing services
for complex care, and where people only need a homemaking service, we are
referring them to the Support Services to Seniors.
Well, that is correct to some extent, Mr.
Speaker, but what has happened is now, actually throughout the city of Winnipeg
and certainly in rural Manitoba, the minister has indicated that he wants to
correct an inconsistency and the unfairness that currently exists in that
system.
The unfairness and inconsistency the
minister points out, and he is correct in this inconsistency, is that
individuals in three of the four quadrants, for example, of the city of
Now, the minister's response and the
change or shift in policy that the minister has looked at is to take away that
inconsistency. He is suggesting that
those individuals in the other three quadrants of the city and in areas in
rural
Now, Mr. Speaker, when we asked the
minister what type of services, he again talks in glowing words about the
Support Services to Seniors Program which he says has developed more programs
over the last year, and in answer to questions in the House about has there
been an increase in the budget, he very nicely skirts the answer to that
question by saying, well, we have more programs in Support Services to Seniors,
which is true.
But when we ask the minister a very direct
question in the Estimates process and we say‑‑well, for example, I
represent Crescentwood‑Fort Rouge.
I have other colleagues who represent other parts of the city that are
in the south area. What services do we
tell these people are now available for them?
In fact, in talking to intake staff with the Department of Health, we
have asked those staff the same questions as to what services are available,
and they do not have a comprehensive list because those services have not yet
been developed.
So one thinks, well, perhaps these people
can avail themselves of the Support Services to Seniors programs in the north
part of the city, but when we talk to the Gwen Secter retirement program which
now has taken over home maintenance services in the north part of the city,
they say that if there was an increase in referrals to their program,
particularly from people who are outside the geographical area of the northern
part of the city, they would not be able to handle those requests.
So what we are left with is, in fact, the
indication that there is no Support Services to Seniors throughout the city of
Winnipeg, so these people who are now going to be reassessed and are told they
will no longer be eligible for home care will not have alternatives to draw on
with the exception of private, for‑profit cleaning services. Now the one difficulty with those services is
that we are going to have individuals, people who are requiring those services,
of every income level of the entire spectrum of incomes who will be having to
avail themselves of those kinds of services.
*
(1440)
(Mr. Jack Penner, Acting Speaker, in the
Chair)
So we are going to have some individuals,
some elderly in particular, who do not have the support of family or friends
who, because they are on a fixed income, cannot afford those services, who will
in fact potentially deteriorate in their homes because they are not able to
keep themselves safe in their homes which has always been the basis behind any
type of home support service. They will
probably utilize hospitals more, and there is a chance that they will be
institutionalized sooner.
That is the concern about this shift in
policy in the Home Care Program, Mr. Acting Speaker. My concern and the concern of the Liberal
caucus in regard to this is when you look at the shift in policy, it appears to
contravene every principle that is outlined in Quality Health for Manitobans,
The Action Plan, and that is the concern of our caucus.
If the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard)
were able or was prepared to stand up either in Question Period or when we
asked these questions in Estimates and explain exactly what the shift in policy
means, tell us what analysis he has done or his department has done in regard
to the impact‑‑(interjection)
Well, the Minister of Health is talking from his seat and says, read
Hansard. I have read Hansard. I sat through the Estimates. We still were not able to get direct answers
to some of our questions from this minister.
Mr. Acting Speaker, when we look at The First
Foundation: Developing a Broad Government Focus on "Healthy Public
Policy," one of the statements is and I quote: " . . . every major action and policy of
government will be evaluated in terms of its implications for the health of
Manitobans."
An excellent statement, a statement we
support, Mr. Acting Speaker. We asked
the Minister of Health questions about what analysis was done as to the impact
of this shift in policy, because perhaps it is a good shift. We do not know that, because there has not
been an analysis. He either has the
answers and refuses to tell us, or he has not done analysis on this.
He oftentimes talks about what other
provinces are doing, and I begin to wonder if in fact this government is not
governing by association. It seems to be
that what goes on in other provinces is a good enough reason to decide on what
should be done here in
We also have asked the minister questions
on the Home Care equipment program and the changes in that policy. I specifically asked the Minister of Health
in Estimates, had there been any type of analysis done on the impact of the
changes in the Home Care equipment policy and, again, the answer was no.
The minister is sitting from his seat
telling the member for Crescentwood that in fact all I am doing is playing
politics. Well, that is not true because grievances are very serious. It is very important‑‑(interjection) Mr. Acting Speaker, I
would be quite pleased for the minister to stand up once I am finished and
correct the record. Let us know what
analysis has been done‑‑(interjection)
Well, the minister tells us to read Hansard, and I will respond to this one
comment. I have read Hansard twice. I read through all of the Estimates, and I
have yet to find answers to some of our questions, and, in fact, what is
important here is that individuals here in
The First Foundation of this Healthy
Public Policy in regard to looking at evaluation and analysis has not been done
in the case of this shift in home care policy.
The Second Foundation, the second
principle in this action plan talks about Partnerships for Health. Again, this is a very famous principle that
the minister likes to espouse time and time again. Again, we would ask, who has the minister
consulted in regard to this shift in policy in the Home Care Program? Perhaps he has consulted the bureaucrats in
the department. Occupational therapists,
nonprofit organizations such as Support Services to Seniors and the Gwen Secter
retirement program, a number of these programs, again, in discussions with
them, wonder about the direction and the impact of this particular shift in
policy in the Home Care Program.
(Mr. Speaker in the Chair)
I would ask the Minister of Health‑‑he
had a perfect opportunity to review the changes in the north part of the city
of
He has not done that, but what he has now
said is, okay, everyone in the city of
The Third Foundation of the action plan is
Building and Managing a Full Continuum of Health Services for Manitobans.
Again, the minister and his government espouse the fact that community support
programs are very, very important.
Again, they talk about that, but have they actually used that principle
as they have shifted the home care policy?
Mr. Speaker, I would like to quote on page
15 of The Action Plan where it says:
"Put another way ‑ if, by providing home care services, we
can reduce the length of time a person has to stay in an acute care hospital by
a single day, we save enough to pay for several weeks of home care. The potential returns from investments in
lower cost and community‑oriented services are huge and experience
elsewhere suggests that these services also contribute to improved health
outcomes."
That is probably true, Mr. Speaker. Again, the minister, in Estimates and in Question
Period, talks about the increases in the home care services and he talks about
increases with LPN services, R.N. services and home care attendant
services. That is all true, but in fact
what he neglects to tell us is that there has been a decrease in the number of
home support worker services. So the
question remains, what is going to be the impact of removing those people from
home care who are receiving a less intensive, lesser service from home care?
Again, Mr. Speaker, if the Minister of
Health (Mr. Orchard) could show us some analysis, either from this province or
other provinces or even in North America, to suggest that people can still be
maintained in their community and their home without having those services, at
least we would have some information to look at and to reconsider our concerns
about the shift in the home care policy, but we have not seen any analysis or
information from this minister.
In the health care reform, Mr. Speaker,
the conclusion is the basic management dilemma.
They indicate that cost savings, they are never really saved. They basically talk about how when you move
towards community‑based services you oftentimes do not save dollars. That is very true.
Again, I question what is the actual
reason behind this continued shift of policy in the Home Care Program. Is it really the saving of $3 million, and
will those dollars be saved in the long term?
The minister indicates in his reform that
it is very important that all sectors work together. There is a definite need to manage the
changes in health care. It was certainly
very interesting, Mr. Speaker, in talking about partnership and working co‑operatively‑‑and
management, when we talked with the Support Services to Seniors, some of the
programs that were in existence, they seemed to be unaware of the changes and
the shifts in this home care policy.
Again, they are wondering what is the impact going to be on their
service in the north end. Will people in
Mr. Speaker, in summary, I want to
basically state that we are aware that there is a Support Services to Seniors
Program. We are aware that in the north part of the city people were not
brought onto home care because they were referred to that nonprofit cleaning
service. We are aware that the intent of
the government has been to increase the number of support services in the
community. If we have those services and
resources available, then people do not necessarily need to be on the Home Care
Program.
*
(1450)
The difficulty with what the government
has done in this case is that they have not ensured that the resources and the
nonprofit services are already in place in most of the communities. That is where the policy with this government
has failed, Mr. Speaker. I am concerned
not only because of this policy shift but because of the fact we have been
unable to get from this Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) any indication of what
analysis has been done about this impact and what the potential will be. Also, I am concerned, Mr. Speaker, about the
political doublespeak that this minister does sometimes in Estimates but more
so in Question Period, when in fact we ask him about the impact of this
reduction in services he does not have an answer. When we ask him about the
home support workers and in fact would staff be losing their jobs, when we
asked that in Estimates, he said no.
Then we find out that staff had received letters later on to say that in
fact their hours might be reduced.
We recognize the fact, Mr. Speaker, that
he is saying that the $3 million is going to be moving in to provide care and
service in the more intense cases. Yes,
it is important that we provide that complicated and complex care, but the
question remains, what about the low‑end service? What about the homemaking services? If in fact there are no nonprofit services
available, will those elderly, will those individuals be able to remain in
their own homes or will they end up on the doorsteps of the emergency wards or
end up in personal care homes?
I would like to conclude, Mr. Speaker, by
indicating that I hope that the minister would reconsider his program and his
shift in the policy or, if not, he would at least indicate to this House, allow
individuals in the opposition to feel more comfortable with the policy shift if
he could table some analysis, give us some information to indicate that in fact
people will not fall through the cracks and that there will not be a negative
impact on the shift in this policy direction.
That is what we would ask on behalf of Manitobans, on behalf of
individuals who have used the Home Care Program in the past, on behalf of families
who have elderly and people who are younger disabled who utilize the Home Care
Program.
We would ask the minister to do that and
to not spend his time talking in the House about political doublespeak and
about all these wonderful programs and services, but if he could really get to
the heart of the issue and really deal with the policy shift and talk about the
impacts. I would ask that the Minister
of Health (Mr. Orchard) do that, Mr. Speaker.
An Honourable Member: You are dishonest, Avis, and you are smiling
about it.
Ms. Gray: The Minister of Health is sitting from his
seat saying that I am dishonest. There
is not one thing that I have said in the last 20 to 25 minutes that is
dishonest. I also know that the Minister
of Health knows that, he recognizes that.
So I would ask that the Minister of Health
reconsider his policy, look at the impact of eliminating these homemaking
services without having the resources and the other services and programs in
place in the community. I would ask that
the minister do that. I would ask that
his colleagues in government who are listening to this and who are probably
getting very many calls from individuals in their community also talk to the
Minister of Health, ask him about his policy, ask him about the reasons behind
the shift in the policy direction and perhaps we could get a change in this
policy and ensure that the Home Care Program in Manitoba continues to remain
one of the best in North America. Thank
you, Mr. Speaker.
* * *
Mr. Speaker: On the question of the honourable government House
leader, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself
into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Agreed?
Motion
agreed to,
and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be
granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr.
Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Northern Affairs, and the Civil
Service Commission; and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in
the Chair for the Department of Housing.
*
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COMMITTEE
OF SUPPLY
(Concurrent
Sections)
NORTHERN
AFFAIRS
Mr. Deputy Chairperson
(Marcel Laurendeau): When this section of the Committee of Supply
last met on Monday evening, June 28, 1993, this committee agreed to pass all
line items relating to the Department of Northern Affairs with the exception of
the Minister's Salary. The committee
agreed to ask questions of the departmental matters under this item, and allow
the minister's staff to be present at the table during this discussion.
The committee will now come to order. This afternoon this section of the Committee
of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will resume consideration of the Estimates of
Northern Affairs. When the committee
last sat, it had been considering 1.(a) on page 126 of the Estimates book.
Hon. James Downey
(Minister of Northern Affairs): Mr.
Deputy Chairperson, at the beginning of the Estimates today, I want, first of
all, to acknowledge the work of the Northern Affairs and Native Affairs staff
and all individuals within the department over the last few days who have been
working in northern Manitoba as it relates to the forest fire activities in
Lynn Lake, and as well the difficulties that have been encountered with the
amounts of rainfall and the emergency measures activities that have been put in
place over the last few hours‑‑to acknowledge the work which they
are doing on behalf of the people of Manitoba.
They go above and beyond the call of duty in situations like this, and I
want to recognize them for that.
I want to as well say that, Mr. Deputy
Chairperson, the reason that I have my deputy minister here and no other staff
is that most senior staff are, in fact, involved in our northern communities
assisting with the communities in their time of difficulties with the amounts
of rainfall they are getting, and so that is why I am here today with just my
deputy minister and other staff are not available. So I would appreciate the members of the
opposition understanding the situation.
I am sure that they do, being the very honourable members that they are,
and that is all I have to say at this time.
Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The
Pas): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, at the outset, I want
to say I do not quite understand the remarks he made right at the
beginning. However, I will ask some
clarification afterwards.
Secondly, I want to thank the committee
and the minister for having decided to put off the Department of Northern
Affairs so that I could be here. I think
the minister understands well enough why I was not able to be here last
Tuesday. I was involved with some
constituency work in The Pas, and the reason I could not come down Monday night
was that I was bound and determined this year to make it to the MBCI grad up in
The Pas, because last year we were caught up in the same kind of scheduling
problems. Because I had missed it last
year, I did not want to miss it this year, so it was for that reason that I
told our people that I was not going to make it. Whether the Estimates process was going to go
ahead or not, I was not going to make it.
Thirdly, I guess, Mr. Deputy Chairperson,
I would also like to go on record as acknowledging the work of government
officials and staff for the work that is currently being carried out as a
result of the forest fires that have been going on up north and now as a result
of having received too much rain. You
know, two weeks ago we were all praying for a lot of moisture and cool
weather. I did not do the rain
dance. I could do a sun dance‑‑no,
I am just being silly there.
Yes, two weeks ago, we were hoping that
there would be a lot of moisture in the northern area because of the situation
of the fires and so for that reason I also would like to acknowledge the hard
work of the officials and staff in trying to remedy the situation and put
operations back to order and so on.
I was telling our people this afternoon, I
went to my mailbox and I am not getting any phone messages, and so I tried
phoning The Pas and I cannot get through.
The operator says their lines are tied up, so obviously the problems are
still there and hopefully they will be rectified as soon as possible.
I would like to have some clarification,
however, on the agreement that was reached last week as to how the Estimates
are going to be carried out as far as Northern Affairs is concerned.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: What we have agreed to do as of last week,
the committee decided we would pass all the lines within the Department of
Northern Affairs, except for the Minister's Salary. We would allow you to ask any questions
throughout the department on any line at that level and the minister's staff
would be present during the questioning during the Minister's Salary. That was basically the one option that was
given to us. Does that clarify it for the member?
Mr. Lathlin: Am I to understand that I can ask questions
of the minister on anything?
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Anything within the department.
Mr. Lathlin: Okay.
Thank you very much.
Mr. Neil Gaudry (St.
Boniface): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would also like to
acknowledge the fact that I was not here last week to be part of the‑‑I
was not golfing, not down where I was.
The minister might note that this time I
have not asked for his resignation, so we might pass his salary. No, I would like to acknowledge his opening
remarks in regard to what is happening in the North right now, and I think we
all have concerns here, all members of the Legislature and acknowledge what the
staff is doing. I feel very comfortable
at any time when I write the minister and he has responded to my letters. I feel that the staff have done the work
there, and as I say, it is‑‑I cannot say anything nasty about the
minister because I praised him when I first started.
*
(1510)
We will keep the comments short because
the fact that we are down to 30 hours in the Estimates, and there are quite a
few other departments that we would like to go through. We will question the minister today in regard
to concerns that we have. With these, I would like to conclude and say thank you
to the staff and to the minister for his co‑operation in the last
session. Thank you.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: I thank the member for St. Boniface (Mr.
Gaudry) for those opening remarks. Does
the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) have any questions?
Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would like to start
off by asking the minister to perhaps give us an update as to where the
Northern Economic Development Commission is at.
I know there have been benchmark reports that have been done and distributed
and so forth. I am now interested in
finding out from the minister as to exactly where we are at in terms of the
commission, its progress, and what we might be expecting in the immediate
future.
I remember in probably two Estimates
processes ago that I made the remark that this commission was taking far too
long in getting off the ground. I also
made the remark at that time about the 18 months, I believe, 18 months to 24
months, the time frame that was given to the commission. First of all, the timing was off, in my
estimation, because it was going to take approximately 18 months; I forget how
many months now that the commission has been doing its work, but I know it is
less than 18 months. Then the report
would be finished, and then at that time I said that by then we would probably
be heading into another election and what would happen after the election and
so forth.
Really my question at that time was the
timing of the launching of the actual work of the commission, and so that is
why today I am quite interested in knowing exactly where the commission is at,
also knowing that I did receive two reports from the minister. As I said, one is a benchmark, sort of a
report, a snapshot picture of what was there in northern
Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if I do not cover
quite enough area, then I want the member to tell me. He may find in some of the Hansard of last
week, I covered a little bit of the Northern Affairs with the Native Affairs
portion of it, so there may be further explanation in that part, but I will try
to deal with it as precisely as possible because I do have the Energy and Mines
Estimates coming up following these in the House after we are finished. So I will try and cover the points as briefly
as possible, but yet get the adequate information on the record.
The commission has completed its
work. It has reported to me with its
final report, and it is now being assessed by the government and the government
departments, and I would expect that a public communication of the document
will take place later on this summer. As
far as the timing is concerned, we estimated at the outset it would take approximately
18 months. I believe that is in fact
what has happened. We look forward to
publicly discussing the recommendations and actions that may be taken as it
flows from the Northern Affairs report.
Let me say as well that I think that there
never has been in the history of Manitoba such an extensive grassroots input as
there has been on the Northern Economic Development Commission report. It has been total community involvement, and
I am extremely pleased with the community input that has been part of the
development of this document.
Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would like to ask
the minister then if the final report has been finished and it is now within
the department being assessed by officials and staff and so on‑‑and
I realize that the minister is committing himself to publicize the report later
on this summer. Perhaps he could though
share some of the more major recommendations that would be contained in the
report. I know the last report that came
out, not that I was surprised, but I recognize that there were certain themes
already emerging from the last report, and even from the first report, even
though the first report was merely a snapshot picture of what was there. I myself, having lived in The Pas all my
life, started to recognize that there were certain themes or certain ideas,
major items, that were not coming out, and I am just wondering if the minister
would be willing to elaborate on some of those emerging themes that I recognize
as coming from the report, the two reports.
Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, let me be brief. I do not think there will be any surprises
for the member. He is pretty much aware
of a lot of the ambitions and the desires of the grassroots people of the North. I have not at this point had an in‑detail
review of it yet. It has just been a
first glance. I think it is about a week
ago that I received the document, and it is my intention to fully disclose and
to discuss it publicly later on this summer.
I would ask for the patience of the member now that we are almost one
week into July. It will be upon us
before we know it, and at that time he will have a full package of information
as it relates to the report.
Mr. Lathlin: I ask the minister then, Mr. Deputy
Chairperson, whether such items as northern heritage fund, northern post‑secondary
education centre, more enhanced women's programs, particularly as they relate
to aboriginal women, are included in the report. Could he recollect seeing those kinds of
items as standing out in the report, for example?
Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think the member is
trying to draw me out as to what is in the report. Although I am anxious to get the information
out, I think it should be done as we had initially planned, and that the time
in which we make the information public, the commissioners will be, as well,
available to make comment as it relates to their report. After all, it is not a government report; it
is a commission report that was commissioned by this government. I think it would be more appropriate to have
the commissioners available to speak to it at that time.
I think the member will find it most
interesting, the recommendations that come forward, and hope to be able to
entice him to support the activities of northern
Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I recollect exactly
those words of the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) when he was responding to
my queries in the House in regard to AJI.
I believe his words were: The
member of the Pas will be pleasantly surprised when he gets to read the report
of the AJI.
Yes, I was pleasantly surprised, I might
say, except that I was not prepared for the subsequent lack of action on the
part of government in terms of implementing the very important recommendations
that were put forth by the two commissioners, Justice Hamilton and Judge
Sinclair.
Now the minister is saying the same thing
to me: The member will be surprised and
interested in what the report will have to say.
You know, which is why I have been asking the minister throughout the
term of the commission's work, interested in finding out what sorts of major
items were emerging from the work of the commissioners so that we could start
discussing, perhaps, some of the more important ones, the bigger ones, the
major items as I refer to them.
However, I still would like to get a
feeling from the minister as to, are there three or four main items? He knows full well, for when he used to visit
my community when I was a chief there, we used to talk about items such as a
northern university setting. I remember
him attending an MKO conference at one time in Thompson, and the northern
university setting was one of the items being discussed by our assembly at the
time.
*
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I also remember every now and then talking
to ministers in regard to a northern university setting. I remember talking to government minsters
about hydro projects, about treaty land entitlement. I also remember talking to ministers about
justice issues, particularly the Minister of Northern Affairs whenever he would
visit The Pas, also whenever I would run into him at meetings where I was at in
my capacity as chief at the time.
Perhaps, then, would he like to elaborate
just a little bit more as to any major initiatives that we might expect as a
result of the commission's work?
Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I know my colleague
is a very patient man, and I want to, as well, acknowledge the days that he was
chief of The Pas Band, and we had what I consider a very positive working
relationship. In fact, there were
certain areas where I thought we were pretty much philosophically on the same
track.
Talking about surprises‑‑and I
do not think I used the word surprised in my earlier comments. I thought he said he would be pleased,
interested and pleased, but talk about surprised, I was the one that was
shocked and surprised when the member decided to run for the New Democratic
Party for the Manitoba Legislature. That is when the real shock and surprise
came about.
I say that in a nonvicious way because I
know that in this country, everybody has the choice to attach themselves
philosophically to the party they feel is the most advantageous to them and to
their thoughts, but I say genuinely, the member is a patient man. He did do a good job as chief of his
community. We did have some excellent discussions.
I look forward to having those excellent
discussions in the future, sometime this summer‑‑which, by the way,
summer is going on very quickly‑‑that we will be releasing that
report which we will be able to fully discuss both privately and publicly, and
he will be able to make his comments at that time.
But until that time, I think it is in
fairness to the commissioners who were part of it, whose agendas are now set,
as well as mine, to have our department go over and discuss with different departments
that are going to be impacted what we are doing and what we may be able to do
as it relates to the report, and that will take place later this summer.
Mr. Gaudry: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, my question is in
regard to
Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am advised that it
is in process. There is an ongoing
process that is dealing with that matter.
It has not been completed at this particular time, but it is still being
dealt with.
Mr. Gaudry: Can we be updated, not necessarily today
here, but can we get an update, both critics, in regard to this situation at
Mr. Downey: Yes, I am advised that my deputy is prepared
to give an update to them.
Mr. Gaudry: Another concern that they had was a new
sewage treatment plant in Manigotagan which the community was opposing.
Mr. Downey: It is my understanding that that issue has been
resolved, and I will, as well, get an update for the member so that he is fully
informed on that matter.
Mr. Gaudry: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I do not know if
there have been any questions‑‑if there have been, I will look
through Hansard at that point‑‑in regard to the Northern Flood
Agreement. Have there been any questions
asked last week? If not, can we have an
update of what is happening?
Mr. Downey: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I dealt, to some
degree, with the Northern Flood in my opening comments which are in Hansard and
which I can make available to the second opposition party, but I do not mind
putting it on the record.
I think there has been progress. What I am encouraged by is that we have
resolved, to a large extent, the
It takes time. The communities have to feel comfortable that
they are accomplishing what losses they have incurred and that they are, in
fact, comfortable that, in resolving through a comprehensive way, the people
who will follow them are going to be treated fairly as to the terms and
conditions of the agreement which was signed.
I can appreciate the time that it has taken.
I guess I continue to negotiate with the
hope that some day we will be able to have all of the outstanding agreements
resolved. As well, I want to acknowledge‑‑and
I think the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) would want me to do this‑‑that
this government was the first government to acknowledge that there was, if not
a legal obligation, a moral obligation to pay compensation to the communities
of Chemawawin, Cormorant, Moose Lake, Easterville, I believe The Pas even was
part of it, and Grand Rapids. The
Premier (Mr. Filmon) of this province directed that Hydro should, in fact, look
at not only the legal side of it, but the moral side.
I am pretty proud to be a member of a
government and a cabinet that were able to resolve what could not be resolved
by the former administrations of this province.
I would hope the member‑‑and I know he is an honourable,
upstanding citizen in his community‑‑that he will, when he is in
those communities, remind the citizens that it was Premier Gary Filmon and this
government that are currently here, that heard those communities when they came
forward asking for some form of compensation as it related to the past
activities of Manitoba Hydro. I know
that he will do that when he is travelling throughout those communities, and I
would thank him in advance for that.
Mr. Gaudry: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, now my other question
is in regard to the Camperville community where they had discussed
incorporation. The minister did reply to
my letter. I was wondering, what is the
status on this issue at the present time?
Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, again, let me express
how concerned we are about the difficulties, in the short term, of people
living in Camperville and through the Pine Creek area and all those communities
that are devastated with excess rain water and the flooding conditions. Not only are the staff working hard, but it
is our objective to make sure that we do not have loss of life or limb, that we
do what we can to facilitate them during these devastating times and hope that
we can do what is necessary to make sure that their lives are as least
disrupted as possible during this tough time.
*
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I am really encouraged when I talk to
people from Camperville and that area. I
see it as a community that has some pretty good potential opportunity in an
economic way. They are determined to get
some business activities going. They
certainly have tourism opportunities.
They have small business development opportunities, and I think they are
properly located for it to be a growth community within that region.
As it relates specifically to the
incorporation, they are extremely interested in incorporating and becoming more
of an entity to themselves as far as decision making is concerned. We are supportive of it from a government
level, and we will continue to meet with them and help them through the
process, so that hopefully they can accomplish their goals of being self‑administrative
through incorporation and receive that kind of status.
Mr. Gaudry: Yes, I appreciate the minister saying that he
is supportive of their initiative, but in the letter from the minister he
mentions that Camperville was experiencing difficulty in two main areas of
planning for incorporation: balanced
budgets for operating and capital expenditures; secondly, monitoring and
auditing reports that meet auditing standards.
What has the department done to help the
Camperville town in regard to these two issues?
Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we have staff of the
Department of Northern Affairs working closely with the community of
Camperville to try to resolve those outstanding issues.
Mr. Gaudry: I know you mentioned also before that you
were supportive. But what are you doing
in regard to giving support and in regard to these two issues that I have just
mentioned?
Mr. Downey: It is a matter of trying to upgrade the staff
and work with the administrators of the community to make sure that they have
the allocation of adequate funds to do the job that they have to do.
The other thing is, Mr. Deputy
Chairperson, is to give some assurance that if, on incorporation, that they
would not automatically lose some of the traditional supports that they receive
from the province. So it is a matter of
time. Let us remember that it was about
22 years ago now that The Northern Affairs Act was brought forward.
If I understand, talking to some of the
pioneers in the activities that took place, it was the intention of government
and the communities of that time that before long they would become
incorporated, self‑sufficient and self‑directed through an
incorporated style of community.
So that has been a long time getting
there, but I think we will see progress in the near future. Again, the specifics that the member is
talking to, we are working with staff to try and resolve them, and I do not see
any reason, if one works hard enough, why they cannot be resolved.
Mr. Gaudry: You mentioned that you want to see that they
have adequate funds to do their incorporation.
Has the government given them any funds in regard to helping them out in
incorporation?
Mr. Downey: We have allocated staff time; as far as
additional funds, no. What we have said,
though‑‑and that has been the concern from Day One when people
talked about incorporating‑‑would they lose the kind of government
support programs they currently are enjoying?
We have said to them at the initial stages that they would not, that we
would work with them to provide some support in the initial stages as they had
been getting under The Northern Affairs Act, that they would not be left on
their own without traditional support.
There is a matter of making sure all the legal work is done, and I can
tell you that there is a matter of insurance and some costs. Let us face it, I think that we are going to
have to give a little in certain areas when it comes to getting these
communities on their own. Again, I think
it is a matter of people talking about self‑determination and forms of
self‑government. This is a form of
self‑government that I am trying to encourage.
Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the other thing that
I wanted to ask questions of the minister is in the area of‑‑recently,
there has been staffing action that has taken place at the ADM level,
particularly as it relates to the position of Ms. Kustra‑‑I believe
her name is Brenda Kustra‑‑the position that she formerly
occupied. I want to see if I can get
some information from the minister as to how the staffing activities at that
level are carried out by his department.
Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member may not be
aware, but at the ADM and the deputy minister's level, the hiring is taken
place by Order‑in‑Council.
That is the approval mechanism.
What we have done is to fill that position that Brenda had, and Brenda
has moved on to the director‑general with the federal government of the
department of northern and native affairs.
Let me say at the outset that the
individual that was chosen in the person of Loretta Clarke is no stranger to
northern
It is not, as some in his party would
portray it, a political hiring. That is
not the case at all. She has never been
elected to the Manitoba Legislature, as I referred to some of his colleagues when
they made an approach, or making accusations, as to the fact that it was
political, and that it did not have concurrence of the civil service. I just want to remind him that the party
which he now sits with hired two well‑knowns, not people who were not
involved in politics: one Terry
Sargeant, who is a former NDP member of the House of Commons, that was hired
within the department without competition; as well, Phil Eyler, who was the NDP
member of the Legislature for one of the city ridings, an NDP member of the
government that was defeated, again hired within the civil service without
competition.
So I do not need to get into a political
debate, but anytime the member wants to or his party wants to I am quite
prepared to do so. But the individual is
hired based on competence, based on experience; quite frankly, I am quite
pleased to see her in that position. I
would anticipate‑‑and I say this at the outset, I wanted an
individual like Loretta Clarke in an ADM position when the Northern Economic Commission
report is tabled‑‑that the recommendations that are there will be
able to be assessed by her and the department.
I think that with her background, both
sitting as a manager of the Communities Economic Development Fund, having been
involved in many organizations, the Norman Regional Development corporation,
and having a good understanding of the North, she will do a very good job. On the salary side, she is at the same
classification as Brenda Kustra was, and I think the salary range is from $70,000
to $80,000. I think she is in the
$75,000 range, exactly the same place as where Brenda Kustra would have been.
Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister is
right. I particularly do not like going
into this type of questioning during Estimates, because it gets very partisan,
it gets very political, and I think my role here as a Northern Affairs critic
is to ask questions of the minister. At
the outset of this meeting, I was advised, and I was very grateful for being
given the opportunity, to stay with the line that deals with the Minister's
Salary and therefore giving me quite an open line of questioning. For that, I am appreciative, but I find it
sometimes difficult to sit here asking questions, and the minister starts off
by saying: The member is honourable; he
is a fine member of his community; the member is very patient and all of those
things; I do not want to get political.
Then he goes on to do exactly that.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that is
frustrating for me, and here I am as the critic that is supposed to be here on
behalf of our party trying to do my job, asking a question as to the type of
staffing activity that is carried out at the ADM level. That is all I wanted to know. I did not want the minister to go on and on
and say the party that he represents, this is what they used to do. I am not interested in that. I am interested in what is happening today,
sir. That is all I am interested in.
*
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Now, let me be like the minister
then. Let me make it perfectly clear to
the minister that, although I do not have any quarrels as to the qualifications
of one Loretta Clarke from Thompson, who, I understand, has taken the position
of Assistant Deputy Minister of Northern Affairs working out of Thompson, I
think.
What I find difficult, and that is the
reason that I ask the question, is that, although she was not elected to a
position in the Legislature, she was, however, a defeated candidate in the last
election. She ran for the Conservatives
in the last election and, unfortunately for the minister, could not unseat our
member for Thompson. That is the reason
why I am asking the question. How is
that staffing activity carried out at that level?
The Department of Northern Affairs is
responsible for carrying out government activities in an area of
The other question that I was going to ask
was: Did you have any potential candidates
that were of aboriginal descent that could have maybe filled the position just
as ably as one Ms. Clarke, or was the recruitment process based strictly on‑‑I
know he says, I want somebody that is going to implement the recommendations of
the Economic Development Commission, but you know when you look at the whole
thing, you cannot help but wonder on what basis the appointment was made.
I ask the minister, did you consider
hiring or looking at the potential of any aboriginal people in the North to serve
in that capacity? If so, what was the
difference in the qualifications? I know we have a lot of aboriginal people
from the North who are just as capable, that could have served in that
department that services primarily aboriginal communities.
Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the honourable
member, I know, does not want to get into this kind of debate and
discussion. I will accommodate him, and
we will move on to another portion of it after I answer this, if he would so
desire.
First of all, let me indicate to him that
it is an Order‑in‑Council employment activity. I have indicated that there will be an open
competition for the job. She is in place
in an acting position. The member is
well aware that she has been working for the Communities Economic Development
Fund and has done an excellent job in that capacity and has worked very well
with the native community and northern community.
I want to, as well, remind the member that
the qualifications were the first thing that we were looking at and will look
for.
As it relates to native employment within
the Department of Northern and Native Affairs, some 30 percent of our workforce
is of aboriginal background‑‑30 percent in the department. In fact, in Native Affairs, it is higher than
that, but of the total Department of Northern and Native Affairs, we have a
workforce of approximately 30 percent aboriginal background. That is on the record from the other night as
well.
We also have 56 percent of our workforce
as female. Of course, hiring Loretta in
that position certainly helps to give more senior management positions to
females in our workforce, which, I think, is extremely important, and indicates
that we consider the qualifications and the individuals like that for those
jobs.
Again, I do appreciate the member coming
forward and asking questions in this area.
If it were not for a little political debate back and forth, then the
public may question what side either of us is on. I think it is helpful to keep that line of
distinction drawn between us. So I thank
the member for his questions.
Mr. Lathlin: There are just a few other questions that I
was going to ask, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, but one‑‑
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please.
Mr. Downey: I do not want to mislead the committee, Mr.
Deputy Chairperson. I did make a
mistake. It is 29 percent aboriginal,
not 30. It was 29 percent, and I
apologize to the committee. My trusty
staff here brought forward the actual number.
Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, as I said earlier, there
are just only a few questions I wanted to ask on the other sections, but I
would like to ask the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) a general
question, one that I have been pondering.
It is not a political question.
It is a question that I have been pondering for quite a while now as I
try to understand how the government system works.
As the minister knows, every once in a
while, in response to my questions in the House, he will start off by saying
that perhaps the member does not understand, and it is probably true. I admit
that I do not understand a whole lot of other things. Maybe he does; I do
not. There are certain systems in
government that I do not have complete understanding of, and I am not ashamed
to admit that.
But, with the Ministry of Northern
Affairs, I have always looked at that ministry as being one of the key
ministries. Although it is a small ministry, I have always looked at it as
being a key ministry because it has to do with northern
A lot of times I am wondering, in caucus
or in cabinet meetings, just exactly what role the minister plays in terms of
what I would say, as the minister is speaking on behalf of his department, and
really, essentially, speaking on behalf of northern Manitoba. I think of areas like the roads, and I have
asked questions in the House and have written letters to the Minister of
Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger).
I have asked questions of the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns),
Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) and so on, Education, concerns that affect my
constituency.
I guess this is as good a time as any to
ask the minister exactly what role he plays in cabinet in terms of fulfilling
his duties as the Minister responsible for Northern Affairs. Maybe this is where I am naive; I do not have
that experience that he has and most government members. But, when I think of a Minister of Northern
Affairs, I sort of parallel this with when I was a chief. I was chief of my band, but I was also
chairperson of the Swampy Creek Tribal Council, so whenever I was at national
meetings, of course, my first commitment was to my home reserve, but I also had
the responsibility of speaking on behalf of our tribal council, and then on top
of that I had the responsibility of speaking for MKO.
If I was the only
*
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An Honourable Member: Does he stand for the people?
Mr. Lathlin: Yes, in other words, is that his role?
Mr. Downey: A fair question, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, and
let me at the outset say to my honourable friend and representative from
northern Manitoba that answering the question, which I do, is in no way trying
to diminish or demean the member or might reference to the fact that he should
know. I think he is legitimately asking
this question as to how the process works.
I may, by example, try to point out to him some of the things that I
think are important for people in northern
I say genuinely I have certain direct
responsibilities: No. 1 is the
administration of The Northern Affairs Act; secondly, the administration of the
Northern Flood Agreement and those agreements that were signed many years ago
but never accomplished.
(Mr. Ben Sveinson, Acting Deputy
Chairperson, in the Chair)
Within the department we also have an
administrative section that works closely with the communities and in other
areas as it relates to emergency measures as we are in today, and also within
the Native Affairs Secretariat in dealing with some of the issues that relate
to the aboriginal community in a broader sense of the words, like the AJI
working with the Attorney General's office. Whether it is education, the member
is familiar with the work that we did in supporting the northern nurses program
in The Pas.
Those are the kinds of things we do, and
yes, I say genuinely we do try to have input on other areas that will affect
our northern citizens, again taking in balance the capability that government
has or has not got. I say genuinely, I
am very supportive of those areas in the North that we have the capability of
supporting; and, whether it is through Hydro or whether it is through other
departments, I want to be involved.
To give an example, the Ministry of
Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, in co‑operation with the Department of
Northern Affairs, saw the need when we were elected to move with the young
people to develop a program in the area of recreation directors. We then went
forward with money and co‑operated with that department to put a pilot
project in place. We have had a very
successful program which has now led from a pilot project to a permanent
program of government where the young people are going to be working with
communities to assist them in areas of recreation, to try to keep them from
using their time and their lifestyles in nonproductive ways. Recreation, I believe, is a motivating
activity. Organized sports, organized
activities will enhance and character build, rather than some of the other
activities that are less than desirable.
Just using that as an example, I think it
paid off, and I am getting nothing but excellent reports. There was a
In cabinet it is my job to speak on behalf
of our northern communities and try to represent them to my best ability, and
also advance things like the Northern Flood Agreements, like the Treaty Land
Entitlement, like the young recreation program.
As well, we have put $50,000 forward this year for the northern camp
program that will impact some 500 young people in giving them opportunities
this summer to help them build a better way of life. So I see it as all encompassing.
Of course, the member knows that I do not
have any responsibilities directly on reserves, but certainly have the
responsibility to work with those communities to enhance the
opportunities. Again, let us say I would
like to continue to endeavour to support, and he can use Repap, he can use
The member keeps raising it, and I do not
disagree with him: one of our major objectives has to be employment creation in
our northern communities. We need to
develop the private sector and government programs that will employ people, and
that would be a major objective. We do
not pretend that we have not been totally successful, but I think as we look
back at the history, who has been? We can
talk about building of Conawapa, and that was a major project. He is certainly aware of the work that was
done with Limestone.
Again, one of the biggest criticisms that
I had come forward about the development and building of Limestone was the fact
they did not use northern Manitobans, that there was construction people brought
in from B.C. and all other parts of Canada, denying the northern people. It was not this government that built
Limestone. It was the former
administration. Again, the objective has
to be to create meaningful employment opportunities.
That is why I have been so strong, Mr.
Acting Deputy Chairperson, about succeeding to resolve the long outstanding
Northern Flood Agreement issues so that communities like
I say very genuinely, I look forward to
input from the member who sits across the table in not only a critical way, and
I genuinely mean that. I think he has
been positive in a lot of his approach.
Now he sometimes has a pretty strong attack on some of my colleagues,
but I think they genuinely are trying to advance the government policies in the
interest of the northern Manitobans as well, and we will continue to do so.
I thank the member for that question.
Mr. Lathlin: I was asking that question in trying to‑‑for
example, in the area of health, education, and family services, those are the
areas where I feel that the minister should have a much more in‑depth
understanding of the way the North is, because he has been there.
At least for elections times, he is there;
he is there quite a bit. I know when I
was a chief there, I was getting tired of him actually, Mr. Acting Deputy
Chairperson. Hell, he would show up
every Thursday, and I am wondering what kind of gift to give him next. So finally one day I told him, after this you
do not come back.
Anyway, when I think about health
services, education and family services, for example, the user fee. I know that when I live in the city of
*
(1600)
(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)
Okay, and if I keep transferring from one
bus to another, or keep taking buses all day to finally access whatever service
I am looking for, it still does not cost me anything other than maybe lunch
money or bus fares. But, Mr. Deputy
Chairperson, when you are living in Cormorant or Moose Lake or Cross Lake,
Norway House, for example, or Easterville, Grand Rapids, even in Wanless, when
you have to see‑‑there are a whole host of programs and services
that are not operating in those communities, not like Winnipeg or even in The
Pas.
So what do those people do whenever they
want to access a particular service?
They have to get out, and in order to get out, it costs money. It is not like jumping on a bus in St.
Norbert or even in Transcona and being in the heart of the city within 30
minutes, and being able to access those services. It does not work like that, and that is where
sometimes I am hopeful that the minister will talk on behalf of the North in
that light, when it comes to the budget process and so on, because I would
think that he would be the one to understand it because he works with the
northern communities as a Minister of Northern Affairs.
So that is why I asked that question. He can talk about Northern Flood and so on, I
mean those things are contracts that were to have come to those people
legitimately anyway, okay? They are not programs and services that are
applicable to any other citizens of
Now, when we start looking at health
services, education services, family services, those are services that are
available to every citizen of
That is where sometimes I think the
minister, in trying to understand his role as a Northern Affairs minister,
would be quite vocal when it comes to talking about northern programs and
services, northern people and so on.
That is why I asked that question‑‑for no other reason.
Now I would like to go through some other
programs, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. Maybe
my first one is‑‑again, just out of not understanding, there is a
line here under Northern Affairs Fund where it says: "To administer the property taxation
system within Northern Affairs jurisdiction.
To administer the Northern Affairs Fund which holds money in trust for
Northern Affairs communities according to The Northern Affairs Act."
I guess my question there would be to ask
the minister to maybe again explain just exactly what this Northern Affairs
Fund is, what it is supposed to do and so on, because it has three person years
expending $115,000. It has some overhead
expenses, and the total expenditure is $129,000. So just exactly what is that fund? Does it ever get out of the trust account, or
where does it go? How is it
administered? What is it used for?
Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would just like to
conclude my answer on the additional input and involvement, just so the record
is clear.
The member makes reference to a user
pay. I am sure he is using the example
of the $50 maximum charge that is charged to northern residents if in fact they
elect to go to services that are not available to them; not if the doctor says
you should go to Winnipeg, or you should go for those services, I believe it is
all paid, but it is a matter of elective, they elect to go on their own for
those services.
By the way, the member does not need to
feel that other people are not impacted the same way. Whether you are coming from
The other thing is, if the doctor says you
shall go and see a doctor and get treatment, it is all paid. So this is just on the elective portion of it
that there was a $50 charge put in place, maximum of $50, not any more than $50
but a maximum of $50. If you have to go,
it is totally paid for, is my understanding of it.
And yes, I raised concerns, but at the end
of the day when I am asked the question all the time as to where are we going
to continue to get the funds to make sure the services are there, the hospital
beds are there‑‑in fact, we have put a dialysis machine in Thompson
to try to help some of our northern people. They do not have to travel so far,
something that was wanting for many years and finally accomplished. That is where the money goes to, to try and
help continue to provide the essential services.
Now, dealing with the fund, we have
several communities that are considered‑‑they are operated
basically by the Department of Northern Affairs. There are taxes that are held in trust for
those communities, the taxes which are drawn from the communities are used to
support some of those activities. There
are 19 trust communities that we are dealing with. It is not unlike the operation of a municipal
government with monies being held in trust.
Mr. Lathlin: Why would those 19 communities then be‑‑their
tax funds be administered by the department?
Mr. Downey: Again, there are different levels of
community service or community self‑governance administration. It is basically, the communities can, by
request, move into any category that they like.
If they are bigger communities, then they can move to an incorporated
position, or if they are smaller communities that do not have the ability to
provide some of the administrative services, then this is the kind of situation
that they find themselves in.
It has been that way for many, many
years. As to the origin of it and why it
is that way, I would have to get more information for the member, but it is nothing
that has developed over the past year or even the past five years that I have
been minister. This is the way it has
been for a considerable length of time.
Mr. Lathlin: If the objective of the Department of
Northern Affairs then is to eventually get all Northern Affairs communities to
be self‑supporting, autonomous units, self‑government units, I am
just wondering, are there any plans in the department that would see the
communities eventually being self‑governing, as he puts it, and how is
that done?
Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, let me say, I think
it would be extremely ambitious to think that some day all of the communities
would be incorporated and self‑governing to the maximum type of municipal
level of which we see throughout the province.
Again, when I became minister, The Northern Affairs Act had been in
place for something like 20 years, and we had seen relatively very little
movement in that direction.
*
(1610)
We are now ready to see a few of them move
in that direction, and it is a staged process, that they reach a level contact
and more government support in helping them administer. As they grow and develop, then they move into
another stage. It is an evolutionary
process. I guess we do not want to be
the deterrent; we want to be the supporter of the activity.
Mr. Lathlin: If the minister's department is in the
developmental role, education and evolution, as he puts it, eventually there
would be plans, though, to have 19 communities go on like the others. Would that not make sense?
Mr. Downey: Yes.
Mr. Lathlin: So are there plans, for example, to have some
of the 19 communities be self‑governing, say, within the foreseeable
planning documents of the department?
Mr. Downey: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, as the
communities advance, develop and are ready to move, we want to be there to help
them do so.
Mr. Lathlin: Who decides when these communities are
advanced?
Mr. Downey: Communities do.
Mr. Lathlin: And what criteria does the minister use to
deem a community as having advanced?
Mr. Downey: The community makes that decision. If they feel comfortable and want to move to
another stage, then they are quite free to do so.
Mr. Lathlin: Would not the community have to convince you,
though?
Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, when it comes to
seeing communities develop, grow, expand and become more self‑sufficient,
I am an easy sell. It does not take a
lot of talking me into it. I am pretty
supportive of the communities.
They have to be able to deal with the
finances, complete audits, make sure their receivables and their whole
operation is able to be managed. I can
tell you, we have probably got four to five that are very aggressively, at this
particular time, looking at fully incorporating their activities. I am encouraging them. If they feel that they
are in a position to move to that, we want to be there to assist them.
Mr. Lathlin: So, given that evolutionary, developmental
role the department has, what about training and education programs and stuff
like that? I know in the last Estimates
process I was asking the minister to explain how the staff training and
development program is being carried out.
It was my understanding, from the last Estimates process, that primarily
all of the training is being conducted and paid for by the departmental staff
themselves. Nothing is devolved to the
community themselves as to what types of training they may be able to conduct
for themselves. Is that still the same
situation today?
Mr. Downey: The type of training is determined between
the department and the community that wants the training.
Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I want to move to
Northern Flood. I do not have a whole
lot of questions left, but I still want to ask the minister. In '92‑93 there were four SYs, and '93‑94
we have two SYs. We still have quite a
bit of overhead expenses, and, thirdly, there is this item called Northern
Flood Program. I believe that says $2
million on both columns.
Can I ask the minister to clarify those
three areas: the four SYs to two, then
the accompanying overhead, and the Northern Flood Program that says $2 million?
Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the reason for the
reduction in SYs is that one was a vacant position, and the other reason for
sizing down is that we are, in fact, getting some work completed. The need to continue on with individuals was
deemed of not needing that extra position.
The $2 million is to pay for some of the claims that are being settled
by the province, not the total, but some of the agreements that have been
reached prior to this.
Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, so this $2 million
would strictly be provincial, and then there would be more from Hydro.
Mr. Downey: The answer is yes.
Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in Economic
Development, it has eight SYs maintained, quite a bit of overhead, and then
there is Grants/Transfer Payments.
I would like to ask the minister‑‑I
know the objective says: "To provide coordinated financial and
entrepreneurial support services to local business initiatives in Northern
Affairs communities." As an
example, during this last fiscal year, how many entrepreneurial start‑ups
would there have been in the Northern Affairs communities? How many units of entrepreneurial support
services might have been provided in response to my question in maintaining the
eight SYs? Secondly, there is still
Transportation, Communication, Other Operating expenses and so on and, thirdly,
Grants/Transfer Payments. What is that?
Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the staff complement
is to work with communities throughout the northern and the native community to
assist them in developing of projects. I
am being told by the department that there are probably over one hundred
projects that are being worked on within the Department of Northern Affairs,
Economic Development unit, such things as the transference of Moose Lake
Loggers to the community, that type of initiative, Channel Area Loggers. Also, I know one of the projects that they
worked on was working with the Birdtail Sioux Band to put forward a proposal as
it relates to the PMU opportunities with the Ayerst Organics in
So those are the types of things that they
do. As I said, I can get a more complete
list of projects that have been accomplished.
I know the one that is extremely successful to this point, and that has
been the transference of the Moose Lake Loggers to the community. Again, those are the kinds of things. I know
the department worked closely with CEDF, and there have been quite a few entrepreneurs
developed in the area which the member represents, in the Wabowden area, where
some people bought product through CEDF and have started their own wood
chipping and hauling companies as private entrepreneurs. I think there is certainly a list of success
opportunities out there. Again, they are
working in co‑operation with CEDF, and that is the type of business and
activity they carry out.
Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, what about the
What is the expenditure about, then, under
Other Expenditures, $120,000?
Mr. Downey: Finalizing of the Northern Development
Commission meetings, wrapping‑up costs, printing and that type of thing.
*
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The other question I did not answer
earlier, and that was the question that relates to grants. That was the payment to Abitibi to continue
with their development of a resource road into the Channel area, what was
former Channel Area Loggers area. We, in
the selling of it to the community, part of the commitment was to provide funds
for a resource development road, and there is another $100,000 as it related to
the transference of the Moose Lake Loggers to the community. We were there with the community, and we have
some financial resources to support them.
Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, Communities Economic
Development Fund, an expenditure item there of $1,643,000; however, the
program, of course, is not there anymore.
We do not have a manager or professional‑technical administrative
support.
Mr. Downey: The member‑‑I want to help sort
it out for him‑‑is confusing the Northern Economic Development
Commission. (interjection) No, what
he is referring to in this, as I understand, is that the Communities Economic
Development Commission is still there, and it has $1.6 million in operating‑‑(interjection) That is what I said.
The Communities Economic Development Fund
is $1.6. We are continuing to operate
it. Any reductions that the member is
referring to are in the Northern Economic Development Commission. It is no longer going to be carried on, so we
do not need staff for it.
Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, why do we not have
any staff for CEDF? How does it operate
then? I know there have been changes to
CEDF. For example, the fishermen do not
go to CEDF anymore. They go to‑‑no,
they go to CEDF now rather than being with MACC last time around. How is this program being operated if we do
not have any support services?
Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if the member is
talking on the Estimates book‑‑and I will go to the Estimates book
on page 128. If he goes to Communities
Economic Development Fund, last year, 1992‑93, there was $1,858,800. That was for the employing of people and for
interest costs and for the overhead operating costs of CEDF. That has dropped to $1.6 million this year, and
it is because they are operating it more efficiently.
The member refers to fishermen's
loans. The Fishermen's Loan Program has
expanded. There are more fisherpeople
coming in for loans than there were previously when it was under MACC, so I
think, all in all, it has been productive.
Again, the manager who was able to do this
was Loretta Clarke, who will now be moving over to the ADM position within
Northern Affairs.
Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the program still has
support staff.
Mr. Downey: Yes, it is my understanding, the same as last
year.
Mr. Lathlin: Where is it recorded then, Mr. Deputy
Chairperson?
Mr. Downey: The reason for the confusion is that we give
one lump payment to Communities Economic Development Fund. Where the detail that he is talking about as
to the number of employees and all the details would come in are in the Annual
Report of the Communities Economic Development Fund, which comes before a
committee of the Legislature.
Our funding is recorded not as support
staff, not as a breakdown other than a general lump sum of money, which this
year is $1,643,800, which is down by over $200,000. I think it is because it is being operated
more efficiently, and the demand on government has not been there to the extent
it was last year.
Again, the detail which the member is
referring to, support staff and all the other information, would come from the
Annual Report of the Communities Economic Development Fund.
Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Deputy Chair, why do we not have the CEDF
presented in the same way as the others, for example, the Northern Economic
Development Commission? We have a hard
time following that one, but I sure as hell have a hard time following CEDF
because all it says is $1,643,800. Are
we covering two staff, 20 staff, and how much of it is loan and so on?
Mr. Downey: Again, that detail comes in the reporting to
the Legislature in our Annual Report of Communities Economic Development
Fund. To help the member, I could have
attached the Communities Economic Development Fund to a system, but I do
apologize for the confusion. If he wants
to discuss it further, I am quite prepared to do so.
Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I just have a couple
of last questions I want to ask the minister, and that is in terms of the
Treaty Land Entitlement process. Could the
minister perhaps update us as to where that issue stands now? Is it active, is it standing still, or are we
come to a stalemate, or what is happening in terms of Treaty Land Entitlement?
Mr. Downey: Yes, the discussions are going on in an
active way with the department and some of the communities that have treaty
land entitlement. That is my desire and
hope that we are able to conclude successfully some of the outstanding Treaty
Land Entitlements. As I have said to him
many times, I think it is important to show and to demonstrate that we are
serious about resolving some of the long outstanding issues, and we are in
active discussions with some of the bands at this particular time.
Mr. Lathlin: I know the Treaty Land Entitlement
discussions have been going for quite a while now, and I know that at one time
there was some sort of an agreement at the provincial level; however, it was
blocked or something happened at the federal level that the process could not
continue. I would like to ask the
minister, then, what seems to be the biggest issue as far as Treaty Land
Entitlement today, and what is the biggest stumbling block?
Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I again have to
compliment my colleague when he makes reference; I think he is understating the
fact when he said the discussions have been going on for some time now. It has probably been going on for in excess
of 100 years, and so I acknowledge that he is a very patient man in the way in
which he presents this on behalf of the aboriginal community.
I take it seriously.
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Mr. Gaudry: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I understand we want
to go into Civil Service after this, but I have one question here in regards to
the Native Affairs Secretariat where it says, to support development of
policies and programs to improve socioeconomic conditions for native people.
I look at the Estimates in the Aboriginal
Development Programs. It is
approximately half of what it was the year before. Can the minister give us details?
Mr. Downey: Yes, I can, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. There was a reduction of 10 percent to the
majority of the different organizations that we support and, in fact, there was
a total elimination of the support to the Assembly of Chiefs and also to
several other organizations. I went
through it, if he wants to read it in Hansard, but I will repeat it for the
member's benefit.
It was the decision taken by government
that when the grants to the organizations were to be reduced by 10 percent,
these were organizations that are not able or capable of receiving funds from
other areas. That is the basis.
When we looked at the Assembly of Chiefs,
the Assembly is able to derive funds or solicit funds from the individual bands
throughout the province. There are 61
bands in the province. If they were to
maintain the funding the province gave them, it would mean that each band would
have to forward approximately $5,000 to the Assembly to support them and they may
do that. It was felt they had the
capability of doing that. It is in
Hansard from the other evening.
We continued our support for the
Indigenous Women's Collective which is the first time ever there was support
for the native women of this province. The Aboriginal Council of Winnipeg received
funding, less 10 percent. The Manitoba
Metis Federation received funding, less 10 percent.
So that is the basis for the decisions,
and I have put that on the record in our previous Estimates process.
Mr. Gaudry: I would like to conclude. I would like to thank the minister and his
staff for the information they have provided us here. (interjection) Not necessarily, but thank you very much, Mr. Deputy
Chairperson.
Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would also like to
finish off by again thanking the minister and his staff for being patient with
us. I know this did not take long, a
mere hour and a half.
I asked the minister in Question Period
the other day to‑‑we were going to come and talk about all the things
he has done in Northern Affairs, and I told him that it would only take five
minutes, but it took an hour and a half.
Again, thank you very much.
Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I want to thank the,
I would say, constructive criticism.
Sometimes it slipped a little bit, but basically fairly genuinely and
sincerely put, the questions. With comments like that, I can tell you, the
member for The Pas is going to see me in his community a lot more often. He made reference to my trips there. In fact, he said I was there so often he did
not want me to come back because he was running out of gifts to give me, but I
do say genuinely though that I think it will be demonstrated that when one has
such a large area of the province with sparse population and mixed‑industrial
communities, resource‑collecting activities, that there are some
opportunities.
I really believe there are some positive
opportunities to work together. Yes,
there will always be political differences, but I think the genuineness of the
members that have come here, I would hope, and the members, when given
responsibility, my colleagues, the support I have had, I appreciate it. It is my job to try to speak on behalf of
northern communities.
I say, I find that the comments from the
critic for the New Democratic Party and the former chief from The Pas Band,
whether I was there too often or not, I still felt helpful. It has not done me any harm in working to
accomplish better things for the communities in northern
An Honourable Member: Good staff.
Mr. Downey: That is right.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chairperson.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 1.(a) Minister's Salary $10,300‑‑pass.
Resolution 19.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty
a sum not exceeding $1,149,200 for Northern Affairs, Administration and
Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1994.
That concludes the Department of Northern
and Native Affairs. We will recess for
five minutes and then carry on with the Civil Service Commission, I believe it
is.
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CIVIL
SERVICE COMMISSION
Mr. Deputy Chairperson
(Marcel Laurendeau): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to
order? Today this section of the Committee
of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will be considering the Estimates of the
department of the Civil Service Commission.
Does the honourable minister have an
opening statement?
Hon. Darren Praznik
(Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission): Yes, Mr. Deputy Chair, I do.
In introducing the 1993‑94 budget
Estimates for the Civil Service Commission, I wish to draw attention to the
Supplementary Estimates Information which has been provided and contains a good
deal of background, organizational, program and financial information designed
to assist the members with the Estimates review now before us.
For the second year, the Estimates for the
Civil Service Commission are tabled in two parts: one containing information relative to the
operation of the Civil Service Commission; and the second, dealing with
Employment Benefits and Other Payments.
We are dealing today with the expenditures
under the heading Civil Service, which represent the discretionary salary and
operating expenditures related to the department of the Civil Service
Commission.
Members will note a change from previous
years through the inclusion in these Estimates of an appropriation for the
French Language Services Secretariat.
This follows from the transfer of responsibility for French Language
Services from the Premier to myself, as announced on March 23 of this year.
The appropriation for French Language
Services has been included within the Civil Service Commission to facilitate
administration. The secretariat reports directly
to myself and will continue to work closely with all central agencies,
including Executive Council, as implementation proceeds.
The 1993‑94 Estimates also reflect a
degree of organizational realignment within the Civil Service Commission itself
which results in delayering of management levels and reorganization of program
areas toward more efficient and cost‑effective service delivery.
With the resignation and transfer of the
former assistant deputy minister of Human Resources Management and his taking
up a position at the Workers Compensation Board, the commission has taken the
opportunity to reorganize responsibilities within the Human Resources
Management Division.
The former six program areas reporting
within that division have been amalgamated into four and now report directly to
the Civil Service Commissioner, Mr. Paul Hart.
This organizational realignment has achieved cost saving to government,
delayering of management levels and a more effective and economical utilization
of remaining resources.
The 1993‑94 Estimates for the Civil
Service Commission again recognize the requirement to provide central co‑ordination
and support to deal with staffing and workforce adjustment issues resulting
from the 1993‑94 budget.
In January of 1993, notice was given under
The Employment Standards Act for a group layoff effective April 28, 1993, with
an estimated 285 employees being potentially impacted. As a result of aggressive workforce
adjustment and application of the Voluntary Separation Incentive Program, the
actual number of layoff notices issued on March 31, 1993, were reduced to 41
with a final result of 29 employees being issued layoff notices effective April
28, 1993.
Of these 29 employees, five were not
available for work, two are working in a term capacity and two declined
alternative job opportunities, leaving only 20 employees available for work
with no redeployment opportunity. I am
sure members of the committee would agree that given the difficult times that
we are encountering that is quite an accomplishment in itself.
Notice has also been served regarding
additional layoffs effective June 30 impacting approximately 117 employees in
the departments of Health, Education and Natural Resources. It is expected that the number of employees actually
impacted will again be significantly reduced as a result of our redeployment
and workforce adjustment efforts.
Early application of the Voluntary
Separation Incentive Program has again proved successful in allowing the
creation of redeployment opportunities for employees who would otherwise have
been impacted by budget decisions.
In addition, ongoing consultation has
occurred with employee representatives through the Joint Union‑Management
Workforce Adjustment Committee as required under The Employment Standards Act.
Over 400 applications were received for
the VSIP program this year. Of those,
214 were accepted, including 178 retirements and 36 voluntary terminations.
In order to further reduce the need for
layoffs, the reduced workweek program was introduced as a new initiative this
year. On April 27, I communicated to all government employees through a letter
advising them of the government's intentions regarding the 10‑day office
closure, which will involve seven Fridays during the summer and three days
during the Christmas break.
Through consultation with the bargaining
agents we are attempting to minimize the impact on employees in areas such as
pay and benefits. For example, we hope
to spread the impact. In fact, we are in
the process of spreading the impact on pay cheques over an extended period by
beginning deductions in June and continuing for 20 pay periods. This would result in a one‑half day
reduction per biweekly pay check.
It should be noted, however, that the
impact of this reduction will be further moderated through the application of
annual merit increases where applicable and the negotiated salary adjustments
under the third year of the collective agreement scheduled for implementation
on September 18, 1993.
Through these various initiatives, the
government remains committed to achieving its expenditure targets without
having to resort to significant layoffs or legislated rollbacks of salary.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, with these very
brief opening remarks, I now welcome comments and questions from the committee
members on the Estimates material now before us.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the minister. Does the official opposition critic, the
honourable member for Thompson, have any opening comments?
Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, thank you very
much. I would like to, first of all,
indicate, there are a number of issues we will be raising during the upcoming
period of time. In terms of the Civil
Service Commission, I would like to point out that given the limited number of
hours left for Estimates, there are many questions, I am sure, that could be
asked in addition to the ones I will ask, and I am sure the Liberal critic
will, that I will raise. In fact, I will
raise them in writing with the minister if necessary.
I just want to touch on some of the areas
that we will be raising, obviously, the impact of Bill 22, which the minister
just referenced. By the way, without
getting into the details of the debate, I will be asking questions about the
implementation of it, also whether the government will be following through on
a proposed amendment this morning, which was ruled out of order but which is
within the prerogative of the government to introduce itself, dealing with Bill
22, which would not have Bill 22 in any way, shape or form affect the pensions
of civil servants and the public sector workers, and there will a be number of
questions of that nature.
I will be asking a number of questions in
terms of affirmative action, what progress or lack thereof there has been since
last year when we saw, in some cases, actually a worsened situation in terms of
employment of those within targeted groups.
I will be asking a number of questions
about decentralization in the context of the number of employees currently in
rural
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I will be asking some questions about
civil service hiring. How many competitions have been held? How many positions have been routed in other
ways? We note one particular case
recently where a position that was held vacant, a senior position was held
vacant since June, and then it was described in the Order‑in‑Council
that it was impracticable to hold a competition and that a person had to be
appointed to the position, who just happened to be a Tory candidate in northern
I will be requesting information on other
competitions to determine what will happen in terms of that, because there are
other nonsenior positions where a concern has been expressed about their hiring
process.
I will be asking questions about the
impact of the positions that have been eliminated, particularly in terms of
training and retraining and particularly in the context of the 117 people who
are affected by the current round of layoffs and/or position eliminations,
because I know a number of concerns have been expressed about training and
retraining, and in general dealing with the future direction of the civil
service in the upcoming year, pointing obviously to the very controversial
nature of Bill 22 and the ongoing impact of the various positions that have
been eliminated and civil service layoffs.
With those few remarks, I am sure,
following the comments of the Liberal critic, we will get straight into
questions.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the critic from the official
opposition party for those remarks.
Does the critic from the second opposition
party, the honourable member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray), have any opening
comments?
Ms. Avis Gray
(Crescentwood): I would basically like to defer some comments
and get right into the questions, particularly because the number of hours that
we have left in the Estimates process is so few. So I am quite prepared to begin that and save
some, perhaps, summary remarks for the end of the Estimates.
Thank you.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the critic for those short remarks.
Under the
At this time, we invite the minister's
staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce his staff
present.
We will be dealing with line 1.(a) on page
19.
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think I should just
point out, you made comments with reference to the minister's salary, this
particular set of Estimates does not have a line for minister's salary.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would now like
to introduce my‑‑
An Honourable Member: We cannot vote against your salary in this .
. . .
Mr. Praznik: I point out to the member for Thompson (Mr.
Ashton) that I do this job for free.
It is my pleasure to introduce the staff
from the commission: Mr. Paul Hart, who
is the Civil Service Commissioner; Mr. Bob Pruden, who is the director of
Negotiation Services in the Labour Relations Division; Ms. Jan Sanderson, who
is director of the employment services branch; Mr. Bob Pollock, who is the
secretary to the Civil Service Commission Board; and Mr. Rob Armstrong, who is
the director of Compensation Services.
We also have Jacqueline Blay, who is with
us, who is with the French Language Services secretariat. She is second in command in that
secretariat. Our director was not able
to be here today.
Ms. Gray: I would ask the minister a two‑part
question actually, because I know we will be resuming Estimates at eight
o'clock. I am wondering over the last
fiscal year, firstly, how many appeals have the Civil Service commissioners
heard? That is my first question, if
that information happens to be quickly available.
Mr. Praznik: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am advised
that the Civil Service Commission Board for '92‑93 has heard nine
appeals.
Ms. Gray: I am glad it is a reasonable number. I am wondering if it would be possible for
our eight o'clock sitting for the minister to have copies of the decisions of
those appeals.
Mr. Praznik: Yes.
Ms. Gray: Moving to a topic of the reduced workweek,
let us start with that subject. I am
wondering if the Civil Service Commission, the staff, and the minister had a
role to play in regard to looking at potential impacts, positive or negative,
of the workweek reduction program?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chair, in my capacity both as
Minister of Labour and as Minister responsible for the Civil Service
Commission, I sit as a member of the public sector compensation committee of
cabinet, which was the cabinet committee that, of course, was involved in the
development of Bill 22 and the reduced workweek program. So, yes, I was very much involved with that
program.
Ms. Gray: Did the minister have his staff prepare any
type of analysis looking at the impacts of the workweek reduction?
Mr. Praznik: Yes, the staff of the commission were very
much involved. They provide the
secretariat support to that particular committee of cabinet, particularly the
Labour Relations Division of the branch represented by Mr. Pruden today. We did a fair bit of work in terms of
developing that particular plan out of the civil service branch. If the member is asking for a formal analysis
on impact, no, one was not prepared in a formal way that I could table today.
I can assure the member that there was a
great deal of work done in terms of consultation with various parts of the
civil service, discussions held with senior management throughout the civil
service, to ascertain whether or not the option was possible before myself as
Minister of Labour and minister responsible presented that option to the
committee and worked with the committee to implement it and bring it forward to
cabinet. So there was a great deal of
consultation that took place with senior management across government.
Ms. Gray: I know the minister has publicly talked about‑‑initially
when this was talked about, the workweek reduction‑‑looking at
staff volunteering to take time off or that was an option that was looked at as
opposed to having an across‑the‑board layoff or workweek reduction,
that the departments might look at some programs that staff could take more
time off. I am wondering, was that
actually pursued and was that seen as a viable option?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, although in theory
that option sounds like an attractive one, always better to look for volunteers
than it is it to have to implement a general program, we had some brief
discussions on it with management across the system and internally. I think, very logically, it presents a couple
of problems. One, of course, is that
there is a fairness issue on how you apply it across government, and secondly,
there is the difficulty of one never knows where you are going to get the
volunteers and what effects that will have on service delivery.
There are a host of very practical
difficulties with that type of program, and it was also felt, from a quick, I
think, analysis by senior managers, that it would not result in the kind of
savings that we had to try to find in this year's budget process. Although it sounds very appealing, in
practice it just was not an option that at preliminary analysis would lend
itself to achieving our targets.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister referred
to in his comments a fairness issue across government. I did not quite understand what he means by
that. Perhaps he could elaborate.
Mr. Praznik: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, simply
this. That if you had, for example, in a
particular branch of a department a number of people who wanted to take long
periods of leaves of absence without pay, then maybe their fellow employees
would not be affected at all, would have straight time, whereas across the
hallway in another branch where you did not have that happening, how would you
deal with that? Would you have to impose
days on them?
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So in order to have an even application
across the civil service as much as you could possibly do, it was felt that
that kind of system would not lend itself to that kind of fairness. As well,
just because someone is prepared to take a longer leave of absence does not
necessarily mean that that position can be done without for that period of
time. So it creates a host of other
administrative issues.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, well, firstly, if any
type of program was to be looked at on a voluntary basis, obviously any LOAs
without pay would have to be subject to an employing authority's approval,
because obviously there would have to be an assurance that the service delivery
or particular program was still able to be maintained with long absences from
work.
The minister mentions uneven application
of this type of program. Well, in fact
we have systems in place right now in the government that basically allow for
uneven application, and that is the leave of absences with pay and
without. It is also subject to
discretionary measures by employing authorities or depending on what a
department may be doing. Whether you can
even get an LOA is oftentimes subject to a number of variables which are
oftentimes very subjective.
The minister indicates that basically it
was looked at by senior management. I am
sure when we get into fuller discussion this evening, we will have an
opportunity to get into a bit more detail about exactly what analysis was done
or what more of the pros and cons were.
Mr. Praznik: Just very quickly‑‑I know we will
get into this more later on this evening‑‑but very simply, we have
not, first of all, had a great deal of applications. We have had no applications for deferred
salary leave in two years, I know a little bit different, but it gives an
indication. Secondly, to achieve the
kind of savings that we had to achieve in this year's budget, we did not think
that kind of plan would really produce the kind of savings that we required.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The time is now 5 p.m. and time for private
members' hour. I am interrupting the
proceedings of the committee.
The Committee of Supply will resume at 8
p.m. Thank you.
HOUSING
Madam Chairperson
(Louise Dacquay): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to
order.
This section of the Committee of Supply is
dealing with the Estimates for the Department of Housing. Does the minister wish to make an opening
statement?
Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister
of Housing): Madam Chairperson, there is an absence, I
note, of critics of both parties here in the House with regard to my
Estimates. I wonder if it is in order to
proceed without those people being here.
I understand that the committee was called and the motion for Committee
of Supply has gone into and passed and we are in fact in Committee of Supply.
I am a little reluctant to proceed too far
without having anybody, with the exception of the member for
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Well, without having those critics here, I
will at least proceed with making my opening comments in the hope that
somewhere along the line they will come.
I am pleased today to present the 1993‑94
spending Estimates for Manitoba Housing.
During 1993‑94, we expect to spend just under $50 million on a
variety of housing programs for Manitobans.
My department looks forward to meeting the challenges of building new
housing and maintaining current projects in line with fiscal realities. My staff are committed to work with
Manitobans to meet their housing needs, and I would like to talk about two of
those.
Madam Chairperson, we work closely with a
variety of community groups to turn viable housing proposals into reality from
conception through to occupancy. We also
consult carefully with tenants and the community to ensure that they have input
into the operation of housing projects.
I would like to begin by discussing some
departmental highlights from the 1992‑93 fiscal year which might be of
interest should anybody be here. I am
pleased to report that the transition from the former local housing authorities
to the Manitoba Housing Authority is complete, and the Manitoba Housing
Authority now is fully operational. We
are continuing to iron out the last few bugs, so to speak, in the new authority
and continue to refine MHA operations to achieve maximum efficiency and
effectiveness. The Manitoba Housing
Authority continues to emphasize community involvement and consultation in its
programs and its operations.
We have strong regional representation on
the board of directors, Madam Chairperson, from the rural districts as well as
members from across
These meetings also enable the Manitoba
Housing Authority staff to keep residents apprised of the agency's plans and
its operations and how they will differ from the way matters operated
previously.
In addition, board committees have met
with district staff, residents from a variety of centres across the province
and others from several regions to hear presentations on specific housing
issues. For example, Madam Chairperson,
in Selkirk, representatives of tenants groups were invited to present their
views and concerns. In
In
Maintenance and renovation work is one
area where consultations and communications with residents are especially
critical. For this reason, the Manitoba
Housing Authority has a policy and procedures manual in place. When maintenance or a renovation project is
needed, the information on plans is given to the tenants so that they will have
an opportunity to respond and to comment.
When such work is approved, a special communications procedure is set up
with the residents affected to ensure their concerns and their questions are
addressed effectively.
Madam Chair, I am pleased to announce that
several new tenants associations have been formed recently, with the support
and encouragement of the Manitoba Housing Authority. These groups are an excellent vehicle for
tenants to have an effective voice in the operation of buildings and to convey
community concerns to authority management.
We are also working more closely with
municipal authorities. In a new procedure to be implemented this summer, when
maintenance or renovation work is to be done on rural MHA buildings, the
district manager will give details in advance to the municipal council.
As members know,
We have also developed a long‑range
plan to meet the continuing challenges of maintenance and renovation. This includes introduction of a three‑year
preventative maintenance program for our units.
To prepare for this latter program, senior Manitoba Housing Authority
managers have met with district staff and board members to review specific
maintenance needs and plans for every district.
Each district, Madam Chair, was approached individually to allow for
maximum input from district board representatives.
Although the consolidation of housing
authorities was a major step forward, we did not want to stand still with
respect to the structure of Manitoba Housing itself. We continue to look for more operational
efficiencies wherever they can be generated within our overall operations.
I am pleased to inform members that the
Deputy Minister of Family Services has been appointed to the Board of the
Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation, as well as the former deputy minister
of Labour, now the president of the Economic Innovation and Technology Council. These appointments will strengthen the ties
among government departments and programs connected with Manitoba Housing.
The participation of these two senior
advisers will increase the board's awareness of the wide range of issues,
programs and departments that affect social housing in
Madam Chair, I would like to turn now to
some future challenges facing Manitoba Housing, the most significant of which
is the withdrawal of the federal government from funding for social housing
programs.
As I said before, for several years now,
we have been facing serious reductions in a number of federal social housing
programs, and those continue to be experienced in '93‑94.
The federal government has also served
notice that all agreements with provinces providing new social housing
commitments will end as of December 31, 1993.
This means that
In recognition, Madam Chair, of the fiscal
realities we all must operate under in every province and territory in this
country, for provinces to continue on their own for the full subsidy cost is
not realistic and not affordable. In the
absence of any federal commitment, we all must rethink our roles, our roles in
the context of being a provider of affordable housing for our individual
jurisdictions.
The Housing Ministers' conference will
present an opportunity for
My department has had very good results
from a program announcement I announced last year for senior citizens nonprofit
housing, Madam Chair. This program
covers housing for seniors who need or wish nonprofit, congregate‑type
housing, but who do not meet the federal‑provincial criteria for low‑income
assistance.
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I think all of us are aware that over the
past decade or so seniors have been progressively getting better off than they
used to be in many cases, and now no longer can meet the income qualifications
for existing low‑income housing units, but they still in many cases want
to live together, particularly in rural Manitoba, where very often the only
show in town is the MHRC senior citizens housing unit. We have had a number of problems in trying to
deal with those over the past period of time.
By replacing the previous RentalStart
program, this new program retains, I think, its best features, subsidies to
eligible seniors when needed, and housing units priced at market levels, which
makes for good mixed‑income communities and does not set out any kind of
a stigma attached to where people live. This program replaces grant subsidies
and direct low‑interest financing with limited, short‑term partial
loan guarantees to lenders for the maximum exposure to the province of 10
percent of the project cost.
We have seen in the last year, Madam
Chair, two projects being completed: the
Neepawa Elks Manor, occupied in March; and the
Finally, Madam Chair,
Madam Chair, we are doing everything we
can to obtain maximum effect in benefits from available resources. We are examining all of our options for
achieving savings on the cost side and hope to use such savings to maintain and
upgrade our current housing stock. In
pursuit of this goal, my staff are working closely with the Department of
Finance in the hope of taking advantage of current low interest rates to
refinance some of our existing projects during this particular advantageous
time.
That concludes, Madam Chair, my opening
remarks, and I look forward to questions from my critics with respect to the
Department of Housing.
Madam Chairperson: Does the critic for the official opposition
wish to make an opening statement?
Mr. George Hickes (Point
Douglas): Madam Chairperson, before I get into opening comments,
I would just like to thank the minister and his Special Assistant Bruce Verry
and the staff of Manitoba Housing, because I have had nothing but co‑operation
from his staff and from the minister.
Through that co‑operation, it has solved a lot of problems for a
lot of the tenants. By doing that, it
alleviates a lot of the worry and a lot of the red tape that tenants usually go
through, so I would like to thank the minister and his staff for that.
Some of the questions that I will be
raising on behalf of the tenants pertain to Lord Selkirk and Gilbert Park. They have raised some issues there and some
questions that they have asked me to bring forward for them.
Some of the issues that they are concerned
about in the Lord Selkirk area are the whole safety aspect of the area and the
dollars that are spent in damages and stuff through vandalism, if in some way
the minister could look at addressing that and maybe look at some kind of a
security program for the area, especially in the evenings and weekends, so that
way, hopefully, the vandalism would drop.
The other area that we will be raising
some questions in is the whole co‑op housing area. I was really glad that the minister had
stated he would be bringing Manitobans' concerns forward to the federal
government because, by cutting off a lot of the programs that we had available
through the federal government, it has cut our housing projects down. When you look at the needs of
We will be raising some of those
questions, and I look forward to some of the responses from the minister. Like I said, I have had full co‑operation,
and it has been a very good relationship for me as the critic. I look toward the same out of this Estimates
period. Thank you.
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (
Those are the type of things which I would
like to bring up during this year's Estimates.
I look forward to hearing the minister's response.
I did want to give a general overview,
because I know the Minister of Housing was commenting toward the tail end of
his speech with respect to the federal government's role.
While he was commenting on that, the
thought that was going across my mind was the old
I want to recognize right up‑front,
the national government and the provincial government both have a role to play
in nonprofit housing and in maintaining housing stock and so forth, and any
potential future negotiations that the minister or whoever replaces this
minister down the years realizes what the Minister of Housing today has said on
the record‑‑the importance of having some of those federal dollars
coming. Because housing affects each and
every one of us, Madam Chairperson, and the numbers speak for themselves.
Housing co‑ops is something that I
have always been a major supporter of.
Ever since I was first elected, I often talked about the importance of
housing co‑ops as an alternative to the status quo landlord‑versus‑tenant
relationship that government has, with its tenants scattered, again, throughout
the province. In fact, Madam Chairperson, we had passed a resolution‑‑and
when I say we‑‑the Liberal Party had passed a resolution that would
have seen a significant percentage of the current housing stock that is owned
by the
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This is something in which again I really
want to see where this particular minister is coming from, because I know the
former minister did indicate some soft support, if you like. I am hoping to get some sort of a response in
terms of where this government is going with respect to housing co‑ops,
because I do believe that it provides a very good positive alternative to the
housing units that are currently out there.
The member for Point Douglas made
reference to Gilbert Park and Lord Selkirk.
Gilbert Park happens to be in the riding that I represent. Over the last number of years, we have been
building a very strong tenants association.
I should give the credit to Amie Chartrand and I am sure, if not the
minister, some of the minister's staff know of Amie. He has put in a phenomenal amount of
volunteer hours to try to get a tenants association active and involved in the
everyday decisions that are being made.
I have often thought how nice it would be
to see some of these housing units being converted into housing co‑ops. I can appreciate the difficulty, because you
have federal contributions that are going towards it and provincial
contributions and how one would take care of the share equity when you
establish a co‑op and so forth, many different issues that would have to
be looked at and dealt with prior to any form of a conversion into a housing co‑op.
I believe, Madam Chairperson, that if the
political will of the government was to take that sort of action of converting
these nonprofit housing units into housing co‑ops and they could do it on
a trial basis, I would be more than happy to see it being done in Gilbert Park,
in the riding that I happen to represent, because I know there is such a very
strong tenants association that would no doubt be glad to see something of that
nature where they control more of the everyday operations and are, in fact,
getting a sense of ownership out of it.
I would be very glad to see the government move ahead.
Time after time, through the Estimates, we
hear‑‑or not even just during the Estimates, debates, Question
Periods, concurrence and so forth‑‑from the government
benches: Well, let us hear some
alternatives. What would you do if you
were in government? It is easy to say spend, spend, spend.
Well, Madam Chairperson, this is something
which I believe government could do, and it is not going to cost them any
dollars. In the long term, I would argue
that you could end up saving dollars. I
believe you would help get individuals off the reliance of social assistance,
give them some hope to, as I say, become a resident as opposed to a
tenant. That sense of ownership I think
would do wonders for them. We will enter
into a bit more of a discussion during the questions with respect to the
housing co‑ops.
Another big issue at the time when I was
formerly the critic for Housing and the current Minister of Government Services
(Mr. Ducharme) was the Minister of Housing, we talked a lot about infill
housing. I can recall asking a question
shortly after getting elected with respect to that particular program. The Minister of Housing indicated that he
still believed in the program, that there were not going to be any houses built
in that fiscal year but they were looking forward to the future.
A number of months later, after again
asking some questions, the then‑minister indicated that Weston and other
areas of the city would in fact be receiving some infill housing. I do not believe they ever did
materialize. I do not know what the
current status of that program is, if in fact the government believes that some
of the older neighbourhoods‑‑not only just in the city of Winnipeg
but outside in other urban centres, Madam Chairperson, if there is a role for
government to play.
One of the positive things that seemed to
have really caught on and it is nice to see so many individuals getting
involved in is Habitat for Humanity and the establishment of volunteers that
are building homes for individuals that would otherwise not necessarily be able
to afford the opportunity to own a home.
Infill housing did something nowhere near,
in my opinion, as positive in terms of community involvement, but it did
provide individuals the opportunity to be able to own their home. It also had many other positive spin‑offs
for the communities in which they were built.
This is where I want to continue on, when
we talked about the RRAP, the Residential Rehabilitation Assistance
Program. The first one that the federal
government had cut back on was the RRAP for the landlords. Now they have been cutting back for
residential homeowners. The costs of
those particular cuts are very significant, because there are a lot of jobs
that are created through renovations and so forth, and it also again does
wonderful things for the communities that are the major benefactors of a
program of this nature. It has positive
spin‑offs in the sense that once you see an area starting to improve
other homeowners that are not necessarily receiving government grants will
improve their own homes, revitalize their own homes and so forth.
I think that those are the types of
programs that the government should be in, in particular, in the
If there is not, then they end up going to
the Emergency Home Repair Program, and quite often the damage that is done to
the home is that much more severe. It
could have been curtailed under a program such as RRAP so that it does not have
to be put into an emergency situation for wiring, upgrading one's windows,
roofs, foundations. This, at least,
allowed for less of a future reliance on the Critical Home Repair Program, or
the Emergency Home Repair Program, as it was being called when I was the critic
for Housing prior.
I also was wanting to talk, as I say,
about the Genstar, Ladco, Manitoba Housing Renewal Corporation and the deal
that they entered into. Actually, I
should exclude Genstar. Genstar did not
win out in that particular deal, but there were a number of time lines that
were given. I am interested to know
where the government is coming from with respect to the land banking that we
currently have, the land that we have in stock.
Is the government still attempting to sell off the land? Are they entertaining bids for this
land? Hopefully, time will allow for me
to ask what I believe are some very legitimate questions with respect to what
is the government doing.
An Honourable Member: You have 30 hours, Kevin.
Mr. Lamoureux: Actually, 15 hours because we are in one
committee. But, Madam Chairperson, I was
disappointed when Ladco and MHRC entered into an agreement and there really was
not anything established for nonprofit housing.
So it is the broader picture in terms of
the land banking and what the government's intentions are with the land banks,
and a specific issue dealing with Ladco‑MHRC. We are entering that fifth year, and I have
not had the opportunity‑‑I half expected us to go into bills this
afternoon, so I did not get to go through the contract, but I did manage to
pull the file I have had for a few years and would like to go through with the
Minister of Housing some of the details of it.
I know that the Minister of Housing at the
time boasted to me on how wonderful a program this is: it is not going to cost government any money
at all; in fact, it is going to be raising money. I believe, and I do not want to misquote him
or anything, but he definitely left the impression that I should be happy with
that particular deal because maybe some of the proceeds that come from that
agreement could be funnelled back into other nonprofit housing units. When we had talked about the many different
housing issues that were out there, at least I was of the opinion that there
was a general agreement that there needed to be more investment into the
current housing stock at the very least in order to maintain standards.
Another issue that I think is very
important that should at least be made reference to is our seniors
housing. The minister, I will be asking
him for some specific numbers and failing at my getting the specific numbers, I
trust he has his staff; maybe they will get back to me with the specific
numbers in terms of the number of units for seniors, 55 Plus, that are
available.
I know for example like the Bluebird, the
Annex, and there are a number of units, from what I understand, that have been
vacant for quite a while. It is
primarily because, I believe, that there was a bad policy decision back in the
'70s when these buildings were being planned.
Hopefully, the government has some ideas in terms of what it is that
they plan on doing with some of these buildings, if in fact they have any ideas
on how we can utilize the space that is there in some form of a feasible
fashion.
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Lastly, what I was wanting to comment on
was with respect to the landlord and tenants bill. We now have that under the responsibility of
the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mrs. McIntosh), but again, I
can recall the discussions that the then‑Minister of Housing and I had on
that particular bill. I can recall that
it was brought forward to the Chamber, then it was withdrawn. Then after the election, it came back, type
of thing, a bit changed, actually a considerable change to it. Then we end up seeing it going over to
Consumer and Corporate Affairs.
I would be interested in knowing why it
would have gone over to Consumer and Corporate Affairs, what input, if any, the
Minister of Housing (Mr. Ernst) and his staff have had in the decision with
respect to this particular bill that we now have before us today.
Having said those very few words, Madam
Chairperson, I am quite prepared to go on into committee.
Madam Chairperson: Would the minister's staff please enter the
Chamber.
Mr. Ernst: If I could, Madam Chair, introduce staff here:
firstly, on my far right, Mr. Jim Beaulieu, who is the acting deputy minister
of Housing; next to him, Mr. Gary Julius, who is the executive director of
Finance and Administration; on your left, Mr. Ken Cassin, who is the director
of Program Development and Support; and finally, Mr. Ron Hall, who is the
Winnipeg area manager for the Manitoba Housing Authority.
Madam Chairperson: We are on page 95 of the Estimates manual.
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): I just have a few brief questions under this
line, if I might, to the minister. I
thank our critic for allowing me to ask these questions. We all have people to represent.
Madam Chairperson, I have had a couple of
meetings with the Elmwood housing co‑operative, a group that has
submitted a proposal to the provincial government dealing with co‑op
housing. They have provided to the
government, as early as '92, a proposal on co‑op housing in the Elmwood
area.
It is a community‑based group of
people, Madam Chairperson, provided a presentation in October '92. They have had a number of community
applications, about 105. Certainly it is
an area similar to the Weston area in terms of demographics, I would
suggest. They have also conducted a density
study of citizens' needs and demand study, that they have, I believe, forwarded
to the department as well.
I would like to ask the minister and his
department: What is the status of that
community‑based program, and what advice would he give me to report back
to the citizens of that community?
Mr. Ernst: I would like to respond to the Leader of the
Opposition. That proposal, along with I
believe 49 others, came in as a result of the October 1992 proposal call for
the 1993 program year.
For better or for worse, what happens in
this process is that the applications come in for that program. If we have any units left over in the '92
year, we can sometimes meet the demand for those proposal call units, if they
are almost ready to go. If they are not,
then we have to refer them to the '93 program year.
The '93 program year, as in every year,
generally speaking, is delayed by federal commitments as to the numbers of
units for every province across
We are in the final stages of that at the
moment, so that we would expect some time in the next month or so to be able to
indicate to those who are successful.
I might say that we will have about 125,
maybe, units available this year province‑wide under the Non‑profit
Housing Program. We have had
applications for 10 times that many units. So somebody is going to be
disappointed in the process. It is not
something that any of us take any glee in, because by and large these community
groups that have come forward have been excellent in terms of their willingness
to work toward development of these kinds of projects.
I see I am getting passed a message here,
that it is 171 units for 1993. But
still, considerably down, maybe 10 or 15 percent of what was available even
five years ago. So we are significantly
reduced in our ability to meet the demands of these kinds of groups, but we do
not discourage them at all. We want to
try and encourage them as much as possible, and hopefully after 1993 we will
have some form of program to try and address their needs.
Mr. Doer: I am glad the number of units increased by 36
in the period of time the minister answered the question. That is almost as many units as we would need
for the Elmwood community, so I am delighted to hear that.
Of course, the minister and I attended the
opening of the auto workers co‑op in the St. James community recently‑‑
An Honourable Member: It was a unique experience for me.
Mr. Doer: Yes, I was impressed to see you singing
Solidarity Forever, I might say. It was
quite a wonderful sight I must add, and I even paid tribute to the minister at
that occasion.
An Honourable Member: It was all in Greek.
Mr. Doer: Well, it is a good co‑op.
I am also aware of the revitalization
efforts in Weston, the community revitalization. Part and parcel of that was the
revitalization for co‑op housing in that area. I think it has been very successful. Other projects have been in a positive cash
flow situation. I think the St. Vital
seniors project has a surplus right now, Madam Chairperson, and are doing quite
well financially.
Would the minister be considering the
demographics of the Elmwood area, the consistency of the urban renewal
goals? He is also minister of urban
renewal, with the community programs that are in place in terms of the
consideration of this project?
Mr. Ernst: Yes, Madam Chairperson.
Mr. Doer: Thank you very much. I have met with the nonprofit community
group. I was very impressed with the
work they have done, the efforts they have, the vision they have to keep the
housing consistent with the community itself, of Elmwood. I know that the government department must
review these projects on their own merit.
I am in no way suggesting that any‑‑I am just suggesting
that I was very impressed with the project, and I respect the decisions the
government will have to undertake in this project, and I would commend the
project to it.
I have one last question to the
minister. Can the minister indicate to
us the vacancy rate in low‑income housing units that the government is
operating right now?
*
(1540)
Mr. Ernst: I can, Madam Chairperson. I can give it to you chapter and verse, or if
you have a specific area that you are interested in, we might deal with that.
Mr. Doer: In the community of
Mr. Ernst:
We have some projects also that are out of
commission. For instance, we have 23
units on
We have, I believe, 17 units at Gilbert
Park that are unoccupied at the present time as a result of structural damage.
We are again trying to determine whether it is more economical to repair them
or to demolish them.
There will be some others here and there
that are either not available or‑‑and also what happens, too, is
very often over a month‑end you will get one that is vacant and will be
filled on January 1 but shows up as vacant on December 31, things of that
nature, but that is roughly what it is.
Mr. Doer: I have one last question. Is there any way of getting a breakdown
between the units in terms of the 8.8 percent in terms of‑‑and I do
not expect it now, but if we could get it perhaps from the staff through to the
minister later on‑‑how many would be bachelor, how many would be
multiperson units in the city of Winnipeg, I would appreciate it.
Mr. Ernst: That should not be a problem, Madam Chair.
Mr. Hickes: Madam Chairperson, if the critic for the
Liberal Party does not mind, I have a couple of colleagues that have a few very
short questions. I would just like them
to ask, and they will be completed. Then
I would like to get into the few questions I have. So if I could pass it on to our member for
Selkirk for just a couple of very brief questions.
Mr. Gregory Dewar
(Selkirk): Madam Chairperson, I just want to ask the
minister, could he provide myself and residents of Selkirk with an update of
his department's renovations of the Alfred apartment block in Selkirk?
Mr. Ernst: As the member knows, the building is in very
poor condition as a result of some practices that went on prior to it being
taken over by the Manitoba Housing Authority.
In any event, the building is in poor condition.
We are consulting with Canada Mortgage and
Housing, who are the major funding partner in this project, as they are in
every project that we have, to determine our best course of action. It is very close either way as to which
course of action should be taken.
We are having discussions with CMHC at the
present time as to which way they think we should be going. So, hopefully, we will have a response of an
indication of what will occur in the not‑too‑distant future, but in
the meantime, that is where we are at.
Mr. Steve Ashton
(Thompson): Madam Chairperson, I just had a very brief
question of the minister. Housing is a
major concern in many northern communities, particularly in many remote
communities, and one of the concerns that has arisen‑‑it is one I
have raised in Question Period and also directly with the minister‑‑is
in regard to the shift‑over that is taking place in terms of provincial
and federal housing programs.
A number of people in communities that I
represent, in particular in Thicket Portage and Pikwitonei, have expressed
concern about the fact that they are now faced with a major increase in the
amount of rent they pay because it has now shifted from a fixed amount, by
agreement, to a percent of income. Many
people feel it is unfair, given the additional costs that people face in northern
communities.
In addition to that, there is concern
about the degrees of maintenance, and I can testify, having been in the
communities on numerous occasions, to the poor conditions of housing. I was just in Thicket Portage recently, had
the opportunity to visit many residents of Thicket Portage, and saw first‑hand
problems with maintenance. Maintenance
had been promised, has not been completed to this point in time.
Also, concerns have been expressed by
people in the communities about the fact that they, under the new programs,
will no longer have ownership rights, Madam Chairperson. I understand some of the shifts that have
taken place. I was wondering if the
minister can indicate whether he has listened to any of these particular
concerns, whether he has raised these issues and whether he is willing to look
at the concerns that have been expressed.
As I said, people feel they are paying
quite a bit in a lot of cases for pretty substandard housing. I can say in some cases, Madam Chairperson,
that the housing that I have seen, in any other community would be
condemned. It is in that poor shape.
I ask for some commitment from the
minister despite any shift‑overs it may take in terms of jurisdiction to
either deal with these matters directly or at least to raise them with the
federal government, because, as I said, many people in those communities‑‑and
those are just two communities, there are many other northern communities that
are affected, particularly Northern Affairs communities‑‑they are
very concerned about housing conditions.
I would appreciate any action the minister could take on their behalf.
Mr. Ernst: Madam Chairperson, I think the member for
Thompson is aware that these units were turned over to CMHC a year and a half
ago for direct administration by CMHC.
What happened previously is there were two administrations. The CMHC administered one either through the
MMF or directly, and the other was Manitoba Housing, so you had two managers in
the same community of relatively small import.
In any event, for whatever the reasons, all of it went back to CMHC on
April 1, 1992.
This is the first, actually, that I have
heard of the concerns raised by the member for Thompson. I can raise the question with CMHC if he
wishes, although I understand just recently he received a letter from the
manager of CMHC inviting him to raise any of those questions with him
directly. I do not mind doing it, but I
know the member for Thompson has an invitation directly from Mr. Roy Nichol,
who is the manager of CMHC, to raise any of those questions. I know that CMHC does in fact monitor actions
here, Question Period, Hansard, and so on, because if there are certain
problems with CMHC then they are the ones who want to, by all means, get on to
it and see if they cannot be addressed.
I will be happy to raise that with Mr.
Nichol. I will no doubt be seeing him in
the next day or so with the Housing ministers' conference on and will try and
have him respond directly to the member for Thompson.
*
(1550)
Mr. Hickes: Madam Chairperson, I would like to ask the
minister‑‑I was at a meeting with the Lord Selkirk resident
association just within the last couple of weeks and one of the issues they had
asked me if I could raise with the minister is the whole idea of the tenants
association. They get support from the
government through access to one of the units for their meetings and
stuff. They were wondering if it is
possible to get some sort of funding for this association through the
government and then they could rent that unit out and then they in turn could
rent some space at Turtle Island Community Centre.
They are trying to look at ways of raising
funds for
Mr. Ernst: Madam Chairperson, I just consulted briefly with
the staff available here. We are not
aware of any proposal by tenants of
In the case of Gilbert Park, we provide I
believe two units plus a significant contribution towards a community centre
that I believe is under construction and/or just about complete. So we have gone the whole nine yards, shall
we say, with respect to Gilbert Park and if we can get the same kind of
reaction out of
Those matters have not, as far as we are
aware, been raised with any part of our organization. So I look forward to hearing from those
tenants at
Mr. Hickes: Madam Chairperson, I will follow up on that
with the tenants association, and I will get back to the minister on that. It is very encouraging that the minister is
willing to dialogue with the tenants association and hopefully positive things
will come out of that meeting.
The other question I have is the vacancy
rate of Lord Selkirk and also the vacancy rate of Gilbert Park. How many empty units are there?
Mr. Ernst: Madam Chairperson, we are just obtaining the
information here. We were not sure that
we had it specifically broken down that finely.
I am just having it addressed. As
of March 31, we have 17 that I previously mentioned that are out of commission
at Gilbert Park and 28 that were vacant as of March 31 at Gilbert Park.
Mr. Hickes: The reason I raised that is some of the
people that I visit in Point
The other area that I want to cover
briefly is what I had mentioned in my opening remarks: the whole safety aspect of Lord Selkirk. What they had been raising was the
possibility of providing security services for the area, because they were
saying the damages to the units, some of the empty units and some of the not‑so‑empty
units, damages that are caused amount to quite a few dollars.
If you look at the residents of Lord
Selkirk, it is such a high unemployment rate, and they were wondering and were
asking me to ask the minister if there is a possibility of a way that the
government could incorporate some of the residents from those areas to follow
along the same line as the member for Inkster was saying: more ownership and more involvement in the
community. They are saying that, if they could be put through a proper training
program and hired as security for the area by the people that live in the area,
and also to look at the possibility of doing some of the maintenance work and
the painting and stuff that goes on in those units by the residents, at least
it would give them some form of employment and some pride and ownership. Has
that ever been discussed in the minister's office with his staff?
Mr. Ernst: With respect to the question of vacancies and potential
tenants, I can tell the honourable member that we have pads of application
forms we would be happy to provide to him. The office of the Manitoba Housing
Authority is at 700‑294
So not only are there units available, but
there is also the question of selection as well. In fact, that has created some vacancies in
the
So we are available, and we would be happy
to hear from them at any time. If we can
provide any assistance to the member for Point Douglas, we would be happy to do
that. Short of paying a commission for
these tenancies, we would be happy to try and accommodate as many people as he
would like.
Mr. Hickes: Madam Chairperson, would the minister be able
to supply a dollar figure on what was spent on damages and vandalism for Lord
Selkirk and Gilbert Park? Is he able to
come up with a figure?
*
(1600)
Mr. Ernst: I suppose; we do not have those numbers. We do not have the MHA computer system yet
fully operational which would be able to give those numbers kind of a touch to
the button, or at least that is what they tell me. In any event, we do not have those specific
numbers.
I will undertake to look and see if they
are readily available, and if they are I would be happy to provide them. If it entails a whole pile of work, I will
converse again with the member for Point Douglas to see how badly he wants
those numbers, whether I need to put the staff through a big exercise here.
Mr. Hickes: Maybe I could explain the rationale for that
question. The reason I was raising it is
because, like I mentioned earlier, through the residents association in Lord
Selkirk, they want to try and make a comparison of dollars spent on vandalism
and damage and compare it to hopefully the savings there would be to train some
local residents and to employ them as security guards in their own areas. This way, when there are figures available,
then it should lend to their argument and the fact for government to save badly
needed dollars. So that was the reason
for that.
If a meeting is hopefully developed with
the tenants association and the minister's office, if someone could just remind
the staff that are going to bring along those figures, because that is one of
the questions that they will be asking, just to show the comparison that, yes,
there is hopefully a lot of dollars to be saved and also the chance to employ
some local people that live in the area.
One of the discussions we had at that
resident association, which was a good feeling, was the amount of work and
dollars that had been spent at Lord Selkirk pertaining to the whole renovations
program. They renovated the doors, the
windows, put in shower stalls, and they were very pleased about that.
One question that came out of that was the
quality of the doorknobs. They say they
are having problems with the quality of the doorknobs. So if that is the only problem they have
through all of those renovations, I think they are doing very well. So they raised that on a more positive note
of all the work that had gone in. What
they were saying was if that kind of assistance could continue on to make the
homes better places to live, and that is what they were looking forward to.
The other area that they were looking at
was the whole area of the groundskeeping to maintain and pick up the litter and
maintain the grounds and stuff, and they were saying that is the kind of work
that we as residents could be doing instead of contracting it out or bringing
someone else in. They are saying that
the unemployment rate is so high.
I would like to just move into a different
area, and then I would like to just pass it over to the Liberal critic. I got some phone calls, through a story that
appeared in the paper, from quite a few concerned seniors when there were
discussions of the possibility of moving students into seniors blocks. I would just like to know where that is at
today, and if any of the seniors organizations or the seniors tenants have been
consulted about this.
Mr. Ernst: Madam Chairperson, there may be two issues that
are being brought to the attention of the member. We have, in fact, a tenant at the singles in
nonsenior singles in two projects,
There is, quite frankly, a need for
housing of nonelderly singles, low‑income people in particular. In fact, if you look at the City of
We have had some discussions with respect
to a single building downtown. We have
had discussions with one of these seniors buildings where we may consider
selling the building to student housing arrangement for natives coming from
outside of
What happens, I gather, is that very often
students coming from outside to attend school in Winnipeg have little
opportunity in the way of comradeship with their fellow students on a social type
of basis, that they do not have a central living facility where they can
congregate and socialize together and the benefits of residence type of
situation.
We are considering looking at that, and
whether we take the existing seniors from that building and ask them if they
would prefer to go to another building in the immediate area at our expense so
that we could accommodate this student native housing project or not, that is
still a ways off, and we are not yet in a position of confirming one way or another. However, that no doubt has caused great
rumour occurring in some apartment buildings.
I know our Heidelberg Villa over here in the downtown is also another
one where they had some concerns about the tenanting of the building.
We are very cognizant of the concerns, and
we are also cognizant of trying to provide‑‑and the contract for
those housing units says not just seniors, but in fact those who demonstrate
the lifestyle of a senior. There are
some, for instance, who might be 40 or 45 years old, who demonstrate the life
of a senior who might well be easily accommodated without any great disruption
in the kind of activity that goes on in those kinds of buildings.
That is as much as I can tell the member
unless he has some specifics which we can investigate.
Mr. Hickes: I thank the minister for that answer,
because, yes, it did raise a lot of fears, and a lot of the seniors started to
call and they were very concerned and worried.
I only have a couple more questions. I would just like to ask the minister if
there is anything being planned for home repair programs to replace some of the
ones that we have lost to try and keep people in their own homes that are low‑income
earners and give them some form of assistance to do that.
Mr. Ernst: The RRAP, Residential Rehabilitation Assistance
Program, which is delivered by Canada Mortgage and Housing is continuing until
the end of this year so that, for the present at least, applications can be
taken under that program. We presently
operate the Emergency Home Repair Program under our jurisdiction directly, and
we do provide, under limited circumstance, assistance in that area. Those are the only two available at the
present time.
Mr. Hickes: I would like to ask the minister what
involvement the government has with Habitat.
Is the government involved in any form of assisting Habitat to build the
homes?
Mr. Ernst: We have had an ongoing relationship with the
people from Habitat for Humanity that seems to be escalating as we go
along. We have provided in the past, in
part through the Core Area Initiative and as a partner in other ways, infill
lots for them to build on. We have
presently under consideration support for infrastructure dealing with the
current 18‑lot Jimmy Carter work project that I am reasonably confident
we will be able to deliver on.
*
(1610)
We have provided in the past‑‑if
you will remember, during the Manitoba Home Builder Association Home Show, they
built two houses over in the Convention Centre as demonstration projects built
on behalf of Habitat for Humanity, and what they did is they moved those houses
to Meadows West, where Manitoba Housing provided the land upon which they
erected the houses. Then two houses were
sold in an attempt to provide funding for Habitat's other operations.
In addition to that, of course, we have
provided from time to time access to used building materials and things of that
nature coming out of projects that are either going to be demolished or
whatever as required. So we have had an
ongoing relationship, and I intend, along with the Premier, to be part of the
Jimmy Carter work project. We are also
providing some assistance to Habitat by providing the reception here in the
We view Habitat as a very good
opportunity. As a matter of fact, I
would invite the member to buy a ticket to the Habitat dinner. In fact, I will invite all members of the
House, including the member for
An Honourable Member: Are you paying for yours, Jim?
Mr. Ernst: Yes, I am.
An Honourable Member: Then I guess I will have to pay for mine.
Mr. Ernst: I am not aware that there are any free ones
around.
As a matter of fact, while we are at it,
Madam Chairperson, I might inquire if the New Democrats would like a table and
perhaps the Liberal Party would like a table as well. My deputy minister is responsible for selling
tickets inside the building here, and he has been passing me these notes
saying, you know, please invite them to buy a table.
An Honourable Member: Can more than six people sit at a table?
Mr. Ernst: I believe it is eight to a table.
An Honourable Member: Are there that many Liberals in the province?
Mr. Ernst: In the case of the second opposition party, they
could have their caucus, plus two guests.
Mr. Clif Evans
(Interlake): I just have a few quick questions for the
minister. During Question Period a few
weeks back, I had asked the minister, with regard to the departments moving to
Gimli, what rationale he had to move the offices to Gimli and also to spend money
on renovating a building to accommodate the staff in Gimli?
I would like to hear a little further, a
little more, from the minister as to why he chose Gimli, what kind of costs in
renovating a building to have for his staff there, and why, when there are
government buildings available, would we want to go and spend money on
renovating a different building when we have buildings available, and space?
Mr. Ernst: Madam Chairperson, the first issue is the
question of where you locate your Interlake office. I mean, we looked at having the only
Interlake office in Selkirk; we looked at splitting it between Selkirk and
somewhere else in the Interlake, went around the mulberry bush for a long
period of time until ultimately we settled upon Gimli as the location for the
office of the Manitoba Housing Authority for the Interlake area.
As a result of that, Selkirk picked up the
east side of the province north of No. 1 highway in their operations. So, given that we have determined as a
housing authority that Gimli is the location where the office should be, then
Government Services takes over and provides space for us to occupy. We tell them what our program of requirements
are. We required so many square feet of
space to accommodate so many staff.
There are government guidelines to deal with that, and that is where
they take over and provide us with the space.
They sign the lease and simply turn it over to us.
The details of that we do not have,
Government Services has. Whether they considered some other space in Gimli,
whether they considered recommending to us that we reconsider our location in
Gimli, maybe we should move to Arborg, I do not know. We provide them with a program of
requirements and they locate us accordingly.
I guess at some point it is an arbitrary
decision whether you locate in one location or another, whether there are more
units in one area or another, whether it is better service in one area or
another. It becomes a matter of
subjective judgment. The determination,
in the overall analysis of where we located rural MHA offices a year or more
ago, was a question of looking at all of those factors and then making a
determination. So we made the
determination it was going to be Gimli; when it was, then Government Services
went to find us office space.
Mr. Clif Evans: Madam Chairperson, I will certainly request
those numbers from the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Ducharme) then, as
far as costs.
What I would like from the Minister of Housing
is if he could provide me with some detailed information on the number of
housing units that are within the Interlake constituency, where they are, how
many are occupied, how many are not occupied in each area that there is
housing. If he could provide me with
that I would appreciate it, basically for my general information and for when I
deal with constituents on matters when they call about a housing problem. If I could have all the details as to what is
available, where it is available, how many in each area and the percentage of
occupancy, I would appreciate that from the minister.
Mr. Ernst: I do not see us having a problem in providing
the units. The question of occupancy, it
may be occupied today and not tomorrow, so I really cannot guarantee that we
are going to have very accurate information.
I can give it to you as of a specific date, but certainly we can provide
the units, where they are and that type of information.
Mr. Clif Evans: Thank you to the minister. I will look forward to seeing those
numbers. The latest would be fine. It does not have to be specific, just what is
available and what is there.
I have a final comment to the
minister. A few weeks back when I called
his office with regard to the Moosehorn villa and the water problems that they
were having out there, I just want to say to the minister that I appreciate the
response from his office and the response of getting out there and taking care
of the watering system.
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I would say and would request that the
minister's office stay in touch with that particular villa, because there are
still problems there and I would appreciate that it would be monitored. I am in contact with the people at least once
every 10 days or two weeks, and even after the new water system has been put
in, there are still some problems out there.
We would appreciate the department following up and making sure that
there are no other further problems for these people with their drinking water.
Mr. Ernst: Madam Chair, I will be certain that that
compliment is passed along to appropriate staff who were involved in that
matter. When you deal with 22,000
housing units in a province and they are scattered from Churchill to the U.S.
border, from the Ontario border to the Saskatchewan border, it is difficult to
keep your finger on every single thing that happens, particularly with about
150 or so permanent operational staff.
Nonetheless, we do try. When
something is raised with us, we will certainly try and respond as quickly as we
can.
We have had some circumstances where staff
have performed exceptionally well and deserve every bit of compliment that they
get. So I will certainly undertake to
pass that along. I am sure that they
will be monitoring the process, but if they are not, I am sure that Mr. Hall,
when he goes back to the office tomorrow morning, will ensure that that takes
place.
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chairperson, I wanted to start off by
asking questions with respect to what I was talking about in my opening remarks
with Ladco and the MHRC deal that the former minister, who is here now and
might be listening in in terms of he might even be helping the minister and
possibly give an answer or two on this particular deal, because I am sure he is
well aware of it, as I am sure Gary is.
I am going back to a news service on May
25, 1989, where the government released the fact that there is going to be 476
acres that are going to be jointly developed, that we are looking at $10‑million
profit as a partner in this multiyear development, that we were approximately
looking at 1,900 lots. What I will do is
just ask the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ernst) if he can in fact just give us an
update.
Mr. Ernst: I can advise, Madam Chair, that the development
agreement with the City of Winnipeg‑‑appreciating that in 1989 you
have a piece of raw land with no subdivision, no zoning, no development
agreement, basically just a piece of raw land‑‑you have to go
through the process of rezoning, subdivision, and anybody who is in this
Chamber who has been a member of City Council knows how long that can take.
It seems forever and ever that it is how
long it can take, and for some reason, in certain communities, longer than in
others. Nonetheless, those kinds of
things take a considerable amount of time.
In any event, there was no mad rush because the market was not
great. There were considerable numbers
of lots available throughout the city for the purposes of new home
construction.
In any event, finally the development
agreement was signed just recently with respect to the City of
I know the member had his leader raise
some questions with respect to this and whether we should proceed with it or
not. Let me state that at the outset, this costs us about $40,000 a month to
hold this property, and it grows every month because all additional costs are
capitalized against the property as it is held.
So the longer you hold it the more it costs, and your costs continue to
escalate. Almost half a million bucks a
year now in costs associated with that development, and so the sooner we can
sell it, get rid of it, market it, and get some revenue back from it, the
better off the taxpayer is going to be in this province.
In any event we have now commitments for
74 lots. We have signed‑land
purchase agreements and deposits received for 29 lots to date, the balance to
be finalized during the first week of July, the show homes proposed to be built
to be ready for the Fall Parade of Homes this year.
We get 75 percent of the net cash proceeds
during the current time period, the first five years of the agreement, so we do
not put up any money but we get 75 percent of the proceeds right away during
the first five years of this agreement.
So the more lots we sell now the quicker it is to give us that
accelerated cash flow. So with
significant overhead facing us from carrying costs from this property, which was
purchased in the early 1970s, the sooner we can get out of it the better.
So that is basically where we are at. I can table for the interest of the member,
this development is called Royale Wood. It is a brochure put forward by the
developer, Ladco, with our concurrence, and I will give that copy to the member
for his interest.
I will undertake a further question if the
member has one.
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chairperson, I remember a number of
questions that we were asking the then‑minister in terms of questioning
the timing, and the timing was very important because the timing allowed for
this so‑called $10 million that was going to materialize. I am not sure, and hopefully we will get some
more details in terms of some of the finances of this, and seek the minister's
current projection on what type of profits are going to be made from this
venture.
I recall, we had asked a question, and
this was the then Leader of the Liberal Party, what guarantees has the minister
obtained from Ladco that they will not stall the project until the market is
right for them, rather than the people in the province of Manitoba, and the
minister's response in his last sentence was it would be ludicrous to suggest
that the housing market is going to drop, that you could not get rid of 120
lots in a particular area. The minister
himself was, as is the current minister, a former city councillor and I am sure
was well aware of what had to be overcome before you started paving and digging
for the homes to be put in and so forth.
I want to go back to the original
commitment from this government that there would be approximately $10 million
made, because that was the biggest selling point to accepting the Ladco deal
from what I understood, that we were going to generate all this money, it was
not going to cost the province anything.
We do not know what would have happened had Genstar, in fact, won out on
that particular contract.
So let me first ask the minister: Is the ministry still projecting $10 million
in profit?
Mr. Ernst: Madam Chairperson, we are in Year 1 of a 13‑year
agreement to develop a large piece of property in south
The first lands to be developed are those
owned by us, owned by the government; at the second stage, is land owned by
Ladco. Now, Ladco has historically been joint‑venture partners with
governments in a variety of projects over the years. I mean, they were the joint‑venture
partner, for instance, with respect to
So we have no reason to doubt that it will
not change, but let us just look roughly at what we are talking about. If you have 100 lots at $40,000 a lot, that
is $4 million. If you can do 100 lots a
year for five years, that is $20 million.
Assuming your costs are 50 percent, that is a $10‑million
profit. But I mean those are awfully
rough numbers and not terribly scientific, just really off the top of my head.
But the fact of the matter is that Ladco
has been a very successful developer for 30 years or more in the city of
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That is why we entered into a joint‑venture
agreement, to capitalize on their expertise.
I mean, I do not have staff who are expert in marketing residential
property in the city of
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chairperson, I am in full agreement with
the joint‑venture agreements, and that is the best way to develop these
land banks that in fact we do have, because you do gain from the expertise.
But I am going to go back to the arguments
in terms of: Did Manitoba Housing and
Renewal Corporation get what at least we at the time deemed as the best
deal? We were not convinced of it. The
minister talks or had mentioned the fact that, well, there are projections, and
Ladco has an excellent track record, and we are still anticipating, and then in
fact went into some hard numbers as to how he can justify the Manitoba Housing
and Renewal Corporation still coming out with a considerable amount of profit.
We do know that, because the minister
himself said so, every year you carry and not develop that land, it is costing
you roughly about a half million dollars a year. We do know that the housing prices and land
prices have not gone through the roof in the
I am not entirely convinced that we are
still going to see that $10 million. At
the time, the then‑Minister of Housing provided us a spreadsheet. The spreadsheet said, from Year 1 to Year 5,
when MMRC was going to be receiving its largest sum of money, this is how much
we can anticipate. This is going to be‑‑following
that is going to be some dry years, if you like, but then at the tail end, we
will come in and we are expecting to get this $10 million.
Has the current Minister of Housing
entered into any new agreements or have there been any changes to the old
agreement? Does the minister have those tables that were provided to us
previously?
Mr. Ernst: The only changes, Madam Chairperson, from the
original agreement are with respect to the trustee and nominee company, which
is a technical change, if you like. It
does not materially affect what happens, only who is the appropriate person and
so on. I suppose we have the spreadsheet
somewhere in the files. I do not have
them with me with respect to that subdivision.
The fact of the matter is that an
agreement was entered into, whether the member likes it or not, before I became
the minister some three or four years ago.
The fact of the matter is now that I am the minister, I am charged with
the responsibility of trying to deal with this property in an appropriate
manner. That is what we believe we are
doing.
Both ourselves and our joint venture
partners see this as an opportunity. We
have had significant interest from the building community for this particular
property. We are hopeful that it is
going to be wildly successful, but it is a gamble. It is like anything else when you undertake
something for profit; there is a risk involved.
The member for
From our point of view, we have the
responsibility to have some foresight, to try and plan, to try and do what is
expected to be able to return the best value for this property, property that
collectively this government inherited from previous governments. Whether the acquisition of the property at
the time was a good idea or not, whether ultimately what can be made from this
property will prove to be financially desirable in the long term or not, who
knows?
A lot of that has to do with the fact that
the original reason it was purchased was as a hedge against inflating housing
prices in the city of
I am not sure whether the member is aware
that City of
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chairperson, the minister is quite right
when he says hindsight is a wonderful thing to be able to go from. I can recall when we were giving these same
very warnings to the then Minister of Housing and we do not want to say an
"I told you so" of sorts, but in fact the bottom line is the
government then made a commitment about the land banks and the divestiture of
these land banks.
At that time, we were not convinced that
the government was in fact proceeding in a favourable fashion in terms of some
of the tendering and the manners in which they had gone out‑‑or I
should say, this particular one was approved.
There was a big question mark that was put on it which then caused us to
ask a number of questions as to why Genstar was turned down.
I believe, in listening to the minister's
remarks today, he is talking about the land bank in a positive way in terms of
joint ventures. Again, we encourage the
joint ventures, but we need to hear the assurances from this government in
terms of how it plans to proceed with a number of potential joint ventures.
Before I leave the Ladco deal and go on to
other usages of the land banks that we currently have, I would ask the
minister, at any point in time, would Ladco have been in violation of the old
agreement for putting it off? Did the
government have any control over pushing it ahead, had the government or MHRC
decided that those lots could have been developed?
Mr. Ernst: Madam Chair, we have a management committee with
two representatives from Ladco and two representatives from MHRC. That
committee meets regularly to discuss and plan and do the things that are
necessary to implement the joint venture agreement.
From Day One, this has moved diligently
forward. It did take a considerable
length of time before the City of
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The question of whether proceeding with
the development‑‑now, the servicing of the development was a joint‑venture
decision that took place last year. It
was determined by all information available to the joint‑venture
partnership, and the advice of the joint‑venture operating partner,
Ladco, that it was time to start and this is how we should do it. We should do it on a limited basis on just a
small number of lots in the initial phases to see how it is going to go, but to
go with anything requires a certain basic infrastructure to be put into
place. That is what has occurred and is
occurring at the present time.
Mr. Lamoureux: Finally, Madam Chairperson, can the minister
provide the servicing cost of not‑‑because we did not go ahead with
it back in 1990, between then and now by not developing, that particular cost,
and also provide, if not to the House, to myself, an updated table indicating
in terms of what the projections are?
Mr. Ernst: Madam Chairperson, I have no idea what the costs
would have been in 1990. We would not
know what the costs would have been in 1990 because they were not tendered in
1990. So for us to provide the difference
between what it might have been in 1990 and the cost today is almost impossible
to provide to the member.
With respect to the potential for an
updated spreadsheet, I will inquire as to what is associated with that and I
can assess the matter further for the member for
Mr. Lamoureux: Just to confirm, the Minister of Housing is
saying that there is no maintenance cost for holding the land.
Mr. Ernst: I am sorry, I guess I misunderstood the
question. I thought he asked what the
cost would have been if we developed it in 1990 as opposed to now.
The carrying cost of the land over that
period of time we can provide.
Mr. Lamoureux: I would like to move on in terms of the land
banking and the policy of the government with respect to land banking, the
number of acres in particular within the city of Winnipeg, because I believe
that is where most of the land banking was done from the former administration
and give us some sort of an update in terms of acreage that we have and if in
fact there have been any other deals entered into.
Mr. Ernst: I do not have details with respect to total
acreages and locations and so on, with the exception of the
With respect to potential developments, we
are in discussions at the moment with respect to a joint venture agreement on
lands in the Meadows West, Stage II, in the member's constituency, I
believe. So we are in discussions with regard
to that development, and hopefully we are going to be in a position to get on
with that project in the not too distant future.
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chairperson, does the minister have at
hand a listing of those properties in the city of Winnipeg where there is, let
us say, more than five acres that the province owns for residential.
Mr. Ernst: I am sure we do, but I do not have it here. I can undertake to provide that to the
member. I am sure we have one.
Mr. Lamoureux: The reason why I want to know is I want to try
to establish in terms of how much this government has been in terms of
divesting the land that we have banked through the '70s, specifically dealing
with the Meadows West. When are we
anticipating the development of that particular project?
Mr. Ernst: We are in the process of negotiations at the
moment with respect to a joint venture partner.
So ultimately once that is established then we will have to examine
where we go from there and what the potential is for return on our investment,
projected sales and things of that nature.
There is some preliminary information at the moment, but we are in the
process of negotiating the joint venture partnership at the moment, and so I am
not able yet to provide final details with respect to that.
Mr. Lamoureux: I know that Genstar was interested in that
particular property. In fact, they were
wanting to develop south
Mr. Ernst: We had, Madam Chairperson, a public proposal
call in May of 1992 for that property.
We had five proposals being submitted from four different
proponents. One proponent filed two
different offers, but none of them was Genstar.
Mr. Lamoureux: I know‑‑at least I had thought
that Genstar had a rather major plot of land right beside it. It somewhat surprises me that they would not
have submitted a proposal call for that, but to each their own. If they do not want to, they do not have to.
Can the minister indicate, since his
government was first elected back in 1988, how many proposal calls they have
had on different plots for residential development?
Mr. Ernst: Four, Madam Chairperson: two in
Mr. Lamoureux: I am wondering if the minister can indicate
why it is, again, when the former Minister of Housing talked very highly of
divesting some of the land banks and the positive aspects of these joint
ventures, if we have had four‑‑I know that in the city of Winnipeg
there are a number of properties and it ranges from the five acres to the 200‑plus
acre plots of land. Is the government at all looking in any major way of
divesting itself of other land banks at this point in time?
Mr. Ernst: We have, Madam Chairperson, viewed these parcels,
the two proposal calls that we have had in Winnipeg, as the only ones that are
kind of immediately developable in terms of subdivision and sale of lots. We have a number of other parcels inside
Winnipeg which have been sold on an individual basis, not on a joint venture,
simply saying, here it is, you know; if you want to buy it, we can put an ad in
the paper, advertise it, get bids on it.
If the bids are good enough, we sell it, and if they are not, we do not.
I can think of 20 acres here, 10 acres
there. It was five acres, for instance,
in Charleswood that were sold within the last couple of years. There was I think 20 acres in south
Transcona. I am just going from memory
at the moment. We have had a number of
parcels of those kinds of things we have sold.
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We have other lands, significant holdings
elsewhere, but they are outside the urban limit line. So in terms of development, it is not
imminent, and for us to sell it is questionable, I guess. First of all, if you
can find anybody to buy it for any kind of reasonable price at all, and then if
you did, should you sell it for $2,000 or $3,000 an acre for kind of long 15‑,
20‑year development purposes or whether you hang on to it and continue to
mount those costs.
Up to this point there has not been a lot
of interest so that even if you did advertise a thousand acres in south
Mr. Lamoureux: It is interesting, Madam Chairperson, the
minister says, who is going to buy it when he could quite easily say in terms
of who is going to sell it. Many
individuals in fact do not sell property, because it is in such a depressed
market. It begs the question in terms
of, how are these parcels of land being held accountable to the taxpayers? You know, you put in an advertisement, what
controls are in place to ensure that there is a reasonable, even market
value? Like, if you want to sell one of
the vacant lots in Meadows West, you are not going to get very much for
it. If in fact the government decided
that it was going to go into divestiture of all these little, relatively small,
vacant lots it could in fact assist in keeping down the lot prices potentially,
and it is a question in terms of, when is in fact the best time to sell?
Maybe what I should be asking the
minister, is he selling properties today, or does he feel or is it government
policy to hold off on selling property until market value increases? So I would ask him those two questions. The one is dealing with the whole question of
accountability, other than the fact that you have an advertisement in the
newspaper‑‑how is it, if he can just kind of walk me through it,
how are we assured? Like, we would not
see an O/C, I take it, Order‑in‑Council, if a piece of property was
sold and who the buyer is and so forth.
Mr. Ernst: In terms of the sale of individual parcels of
MHRC property, they are first of all identified by MHRC as being surplus to our
needs or not surplus to our needs. If
they are declared by MHRC Board to be surplus to our needs, then they are
circulated amongst City of
If they have no need, then it is put up
for public tender. If we determine what a current fair market value of the
property is either by appraisal or by internal staff considerations, and if the
prices coming from any proposed tender are in the vicinity of our expectations,
then the property is negotiated and sold.
The Provincial Auditor regularly audits
all of these transactions and so on to determine whether or not the act is
being followed and appropriate accounting practices are being followed and
things of that nature. We do that on a
regular basis. There is a formula is
place.
I give an example. We had a proposal from the Islamic
Association of Manitoba to buy nine acres of land out of the
Then we consulted extensively with the
City of
So we consulted extensively with the city
to determine, if we did sell it to these people, how would you view it? How are you going to service it? Is it a problem? How do you deal with sewer and water? How do you deal with a variety of issues
related to traffic‑‑Waverley is a very busy street in that area‑‑to
provide curb cuts and things of that nature?
All of those kinds of things we considered.
When that was all cleared through the City
of
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chairperson, I see we are getting close
to five o'clock, and maybe what I can do is just talk in terms of this
nonprofit housing. It is estimated that
we have, as I say, I believe it is in excess of 20,000 nonprofit housing units.
What I would like to be able to have is some form of a breakdown between now,
let us say, and eight o'clock.
For example, the nonprofit housing units,
how many of those would be housing co‑op units? How many of them would be jointly funded if
you have, for example, the Life Lease program, in terms of number of units,
that sort of thing‑‑something I would think that you would have
maybe even published in one of the annual reports, so at least at eight o'clock
we can enter into a discussion on alternatives to nonprofit housing. So I would ask if, in fact, the minister
would be able to get those numbers.
Mr. Ernst: Madam Chairperson, that is absolutely ridiculous
that the member would come in here at five minutes to five or two minutes to
five and suggest by eight o'clock tonight that the government should provide a
complete breakdown of 20,000 public housing units plus all of the ones that are
not public housing, but have had some kind of involvement under the RentalStart
program or Life Lease units or anything like that.
We have been in Estimates, we have been in
session here since March. He could have
easily asked me at any time, for Estimates, would you provide this kind of
information? I did not get any of
that. Now at two minutes to five he is
asking me to provide that. That is not
possible.
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chairperson, I guess we will pick it up
at eight o'clock, no doubt. I do not
think it is that cumbersome to have asked a question in terms of‑‑I
am not saying, we have 342 housing co‑op units in such and such
location. I do not believe it is an
unreasonable request whatsoever. If the
minister wants questions to be put forward to him well in advance of the Estimates,
maybe we should do away with the Estimates process and then the minister should
just table the responses to the questions that have been given to him.
The idea behind the Estimates is to be
able to ask questions of the minister when the minister has his staff
available. I believe that the numbers
are in fact available, that it is not a cumbersome job for the minister to ask
a question of the department heads, to be able to respond to legitimate
questions so that we can have a dialogue, whether it is on policy or whether it
is on a breakdown of finer numbers so that in fact we can tell if government
dollars are being spent appropriately and where it is possible to find out
where there are alternatives to nonprofit housing, in how government can spend
its money better so the taxpayers will benefit and also the recipients that
live in nonprofit housing.
I do not believe that the request was
absolutely unreasonable, that the Minister of Housing does have some form of
numbers. If he does not have a general
idea on it, then I do not believe he is doing his homework as the Minister of
Housing.
I would ask again if the Minister of
Housing, for example‑‑
Madam Chairperson: Order, please. The hour being 5 p.m. and time for private
members' hour, committee rise. Call in
the Speaker.
IN SESSION
Committee
Changes
Mr. George Hickes (Point
Douglas): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member
for Wellington (Ms. Barrett), that the composition of the Standing Committee on
Economic Development be amended as follows:
Thompson (Mr. Ashton) for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen); Flin Flon (Mr. Storie)
for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia‑Leis), for Tuesday, July 6, 9 a.m.
Motion agreed to.
Mr. Jack Reimer
(Niakwa): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member
for
Also, Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the
member for
Motions agreed to.
PRIVATE
MEMBERS' BUSINESS
Mr. Speaker: The hour being 5 p.m., it is time for Private
Member's Business.
PROPOSED
RESOLUTIONS
Res. 39‑Volunteer
RCMP
Mr. Gerry McAlpine
(Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member
for Emerson (Mr. Penner),
WHEREAS Auxiliary Policing Programs were
initially developed to provide an auxiliary force of trained volunteers to
assist regular RCMP members in the event of natural disasters; and
WHEREAS the emphasis of the Auxiliary
Policing Programs has gradually shifted toward viewing the program as an
extension of the community‑based policing concept; and
WHEREAS community‑based policing
programs have proven successful in
WHEREAS the introduction of the Auxiliary
Constable Program in
WHEREAS these 27 auxiliary constables will
assist regular RCMP members with crime prevention programs, traffic control,
protection of crime scenes and emergency situations; and
WHEREAS this program will not replace
regular RCMP members, but rather directly involve community members in crime
prevention and foster a positive attitude between community members and law
enforcement officials.
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the
Legislative Assembly of Manitoba commend the government of
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the
Legislative Assembly of Manitoba support the efforts of the auxiliary
constables in
Motion presented.
Mr. McAlpine: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to
stand in the Chamber here this afternoon to speak on the volunteer Auxiliary
Constable Program.
The Auxiliary Policing Programs were
initially developed to provide an auxiliary force of trained volunteers to be
called upon in the event of natural disasters such as floods and forest fires. I think we experienced that in the last week
with the forest fires in
Auxiliaries are not meant to be
replacements for regular force members; rather they are public‑spirited
volunteer citizens performing duties which complement and assist those
performed by the RCMP regular members.
An auxiliary constable, Mr. Speaker,
accompanies RCMP officers on their daily patrols and has peace officer status
while with an on‑duty police officer, with the exception of carrying
firearms. That is the case in
The auxiliary constables assist in the
performance of all normal duties, from highway traffic violations to impaired‑driving
spot checks, et cetera, directing traffic, all things that will assist the
regular members in their duties as RCMP constables.
Participation in the program is voluntary
and the volunteers are not paid in any way for what they do. Their time that they do serve is also
voluntary. They would tell the staff
sergeant or the person who is in charge of the detachment when they would be
available, and in some cases they are given a schedule or a shift schedule and
in other cases they merely volunteer when they show up on a particular evening
or on a particular day. Consequently there is no requirement on their part to
do anything other than that and to do as they are asked to do as far as serving
the constable in the performing of their normal duties.
Participation in the program, as I
indicated, is strictly voluntary, and all other members that wish to
participate in this program can do so and there is no restriction in terms of
age or anything like that.
All other western provinces as well as
The interaction between the police and the
citizens promotes greater understanding and open communication, and as a result
the community becomes an active agent and consultative partner in promoting
security rather than a passive recipient of policing services.
Although there are no age restrictions, as
I indicated, on the volunteer constable, male or female, in most cases the
individuals will be in their younger adult years. However, I am told that there is at least one
exception, in one case a former Justice of the Peace who is engaged in this
volunteer experience. He has volunteered
to gain further knowledge and first‑hand understanding and experience of
law enforcement, and he wishes to get to this level of the grassroots in
dealing with the people, so he has a complete understanding of what police
officers are faced with and what they will have to do and what they will
encounter in their normal day‑to‑day duties.
*
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The commitment by the individual in every
case is strictly voluntary. In this
particular instance, I understand that the volunteer member, who is the justice
of the peace, has contributed greatly with the hours that he has put in.
The program offers lots of potential for
anyone who is considering police work or as a career, for example, or someone
who just wants to gain an appreciation for police work or to do volunteer work
in a meaningful way and to gain some understanding and knowledge at the same
time.
This, from that aspect, could be very
worthwhile, not only for the community, but for the individual. So there will be a reciprocal kind of
appreciation and understanding that these, both parties, would benefit.
Both sides will benefit from the
involvement of an RCMP constable and a volunteer auxiliary who is serving as a
backup. These volunteers, as you can appreciate, can be very valuable and cost‑effective. Although they will not serve as a full‑fledged
member of the force, they will still be able to do things that a member would
be able to do at no cost to the province or no cost to the force.
So I think this is a valuable opportunity
for us to take advantage of auxiliary police officers. The training that these people will gain as a
result of that will be invaluable, not something that is going to only last for
a short time, but these people will have an appreciation for police work and
the work that they are going to do for the community for the rest of their
lives.
As a matter of fact, I am told that this
can save the province a considerable amount of money in terms of the numbers
when you add up the number of hours that these volunteers will put in. That is something that we maybe do not have a
complete appreciation and understanding of what our volunteer component is
about in this province. I think we are
very rich in the
The individual is given, with the case of
the RCMP auxiliary, the basic training of the work of the police officer. They do not go into the same extent that they
would as a member, say in
They are trained on how the law works, the
importance of exhibits in terms of investigative work and the responsibilities
of achieving and gaining these exhibits, say like on an impaired driving charge
of being able to have something that they can use in court as an exhibit and
the objectives of the police work in terms of fulfilling a charge or completing
a charge through to completion and of the violation and the charge being
successful.
These volunteers are more than good will
ambassadors as a lot of people might think that they are. Although this is important, it is also our
times placed in circumstances as a normal constable. As you can well appreciate in instances where
we‑‑maybe a volunteer and serving as a backup for that individual
member, there are many instances where you could go into a situation as a
result, say, a domestic situation where it becomes violent and this auxiliary
volunteer would have to serve as a backup for that member until other
assistance could be found and come to the scene.
So I think that this is certainly an
opportunity for us in
I am told that the auxiliary constables‑‑the
first year of the program a total of 27 auxiliary constables will be introduced
in the following communities: Gimli will
have three; Steinbach will have three; Beausejour, three; Lac du Bonnet, four;
Stonewall, four; Selkirk, four;
In the second year, they are looking at
increasing the numbers from 27 to 60, so this is going to be a significant
contribution on the part of volunteers in the province and throughout the
communities as far as our province is concerned. I really commend all the
parties that are working with this part of the volunteer program. I commend the RCMP for their
involvement. I commend the volunteers
for the contribution that they are making and the risks that they are taking,
because there are many times when they are probably putting their lives on the
line, just like members are. I think it
is important that we continue to do these sort of things and to get back to the
grassroots as far as the members on a volunteer basis. I do not think we can underestimate the
volunteer component of our province here.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Ms. Becky Barrett (
It is a very interesting resolution and
one that, unlike a lot of the resolutions and the bills and the legislation
that this government brings forward, is not one that is on the surface easy to
criticize. However, I will do my best to
be very constructive in my criticism and to compliment and to be positive in
the areas that I think it is important where that is justified.
This resolution speaks of volunteerism in
many ways, and we on this side of the House fully ascribe to the importance of
volunteers in our community lives. I think
that virtually every single person in this Legislative Chamber has participated
in volunteer activities throughout their lives, maybe not as frequently now as
they are members of the Legislature as they would be able to before they were
members of the Legislative Assembly, which shuts down a lot of extra time that
members have.
We all have our personal experiences with
volunteerism and we all have our sense of the role of volunteers and the
important role that volunteers play in our society and in our lives. So as far as the concept of volunteer is
concerned, we on this side of the House heartily join in the congratulations
and the importance that this private member's resolution places on the roles
that volunteers have in our society.
However, in this particular context I have
some problems with the program, and I do not mean to categorically state that
this is a program without redeeming features because that is not my feeling nor
is it my position. I do think that we
have to be very careful when we talk about the use of volunteers in law
enforcement, particularly when we talk about the use of volunteers in areas
such as‑‑the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) used as an
example‑‑domestic violence, as a backup to domestic violence
incidents.
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I really need to be very much reassured,
more than I have been by the information placed before us today, that this
program provides an adequate level of training and supervision to these
volunteers and these auxiliary members that will not place themselves or the
RCMP officers that they are with or the people that they come in contact with
into any jeopardy. I am frankly not
convinced at this point that that situation is currently what takes place
within the program.
The training, according to the member for
Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine), is two weeks, whereas the training in the
There is no age restriction, Mr. Speaker. So a volunteer, I am assuming, would be
someone who was at least‑‑well, I do not know what the lower age
restriction would be. I guess I would
question the program and ask for clarification as to why there is no lower age
restriction. We are not talking about a
candy striper who goes into a hospital setting, who is very closely supervised,
who has very specific duties to do in a hospital setting which are duties that
have virtually no direct contact with the health care system basically. They are not there to do nurses' work. They are not there to do orderly work. They are not there to do doctor work. They are not there to do any of the work of
the health care professionals. They are
there to provide an extra service to make the quality of life for the people in
the hospital better.
Now, that kind of auxiliary, it seems to
me, is something that is perfectly legitimate and acceptable and an excellent
use of volunteer hours. I frankly have a
hard time equating the kind of auxiliary work that is done in a hospital
setting with the potentially very dangerous work that is being looked at for
the RCMP auxiliary police, particularly if there is a small amount of training,
very short amount of training, particularly if there are no age restrictions.
Back to training‑‑it talks
about two weeks of training for the auxiliary RCMP officers. There is nowhere mentioned, either in the
resolution nor in the member for Sturgeon Creek's (Mr. McAlpine) speaking to
that resolution, any information about training of the RCMP officers themselves
to supervise these auxiliary members.
I think this is something that we
sometimes forget when we are talking in terms of volunteers. Volunteers are a very positive resource, but
they are not free. They are not free in
the sense that you must spend resources, human and financial, to train
them. You must spend resources, human
and financial, to ensure that the people that they are working with understand
their role and know how to work with them.
I can see where it is a very different
situation if an RCMP officer who has gone through the years of training that he
or she must do is working with another RCMP officer who has also gone through
that same training. That team, if you
will, Mr. Speaker, understands each other, they come from the same major
training components, they work together as a team.
When you put an auxiliary person, who is
potentially a 16‑ or 17‑year‑old with two weeks of training,
into a situation working with, in a very unstructured way, perhaps, an RCMP officer,
you have potentially, and I am speaking only potentially, the recipe for some
very negative occurrences to take place.
I am not saying this is actually what is
going to happen. I am just saying that
the resolution, as it is being put forward and as the member has spoken to it,
is very unclear, and there are questions that we would need to have answered,
Mr. Speaker, before we could wholeheartedly support this resolution.
The whole issue of screening for the
volunteers‑‑you just do not ever in any situation take without
question anybody who comes to your organization or into your group as a
volunteer. We have seen, to all of our
horror, Mr. Speaker, incidents where people have been placed in situations of trust
working with children in a volunteer capacity where they have shown that they
are incapable of fulfilling that trust role.
We have all learned, and I am thankful that we have, I think, learned
that you have to be very careful to screen volunteers in many situations.
I would suggest that this is a
particularly important kind of program to have a very good screening system in
place, because you are asking these auxiliary members to go into a range of
kinds of events, you are asking them to do a number of things with a very small
amount of training, and you are also asking the RCMP officers to work with
these people knowing that they have limited training and background in this
situation.
I think it is essential that you have a
good screening process in place as well for this program to work. I would like to see, as well, an age
restriction, not an upper‑age restriction, but a lower‑age
restriction. You are putting people into
situations where there is potential for danger, where there is an enormous
amount of judgment involved. You do not hire,
and you do not put RCMP or police officers on the street or in their cars or in
the community without a very long and strenuous screening and orientation and
training process. Auxiliaries, even
though they are volunteers, should have maybe not the complete equivalent of
screening and training, but certainly more screening and training and
restrictions than would appear to be the case in this situation.
Again, Mr. Speaker, the member for
Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) talks about the fact that this program will not
replace regular RCMP officers. He made
that point not only in the resolution but in his discussing the resolution
several times, which I think is an essential point that must be taken into
account in this situation. These
auxiliary personnel should not be seen as replacing the work of the RCMP
officers. They should be seen as
enhancing the work of the RCMP, just as a candy striper or a volunteer in a
hospital setting under no circumstances is seen by anyone in that situation,
neither the patient nor the volunteer his or herself nor the hospital staff, as
anything but an augmenting of the services provided to the patient. So, in this case, it should be absolutely
clear at all times that these volunteers are additional, not instead of the regular
RCMP.
I make that point very clearly, Mr.
Speaker, or I hope I am making it very clearly, because while the resolution
itself says that very clearly, the member for Sturgeon Creek in his comments
reflected a slightly different view of this whole situation and one that really
rings the alarm bells for me, and I think I speak for the members of my
caucus. That is he talks about the fact
that this is a cost‑effective measure and that it will provide no cost,
it will be done with no cost.
Now, as I stated earlier, you never have a
volunteer program in place with no cost.
You must, if you are going to have a well‑run volunteer program
and certainly one that is in as an essential and potentially sensitive area as
RCMP work, that program has to have costs attached to it. It has to have training costs attached to
it. It has to have enough staff to do an
effective screening, an effective orientation, effective training and effective
follow‑up, Mr. Speaker, because you put these people into situations
where neither they, at the beginning, nor the RCMP officers themselves know
exactly what is going to happen. Some
people will make it, others will not. That is the way of the world.
*
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So if you do not have those supports in
place, which cost, then you are not having an effective program, and you run
the risk of replacing rather than augmenting essential services, and services
that relate very closely to our health and well‑being and, in some cases,
to our lives. We are talking critical
instances here.
So it is not a no‑cost program. The member for Sturgeon Creek may not have
meant that when he said it, but I want to make it very clear that for this to
be effective, there is a cost attached to it.
It can be, Mr. Speaker, cost‑effective, again, if the program is
seen in the proper light, I believe. It
is cost‑effective if it does the sorts of things that the final WHEREAS
states, which is: directly involve
community members in crime prevention and foster a positive attitude between
community members and law enforcement officials.
This can be a very cost‑effective
part of this program and one that we would very clearly support, because we are
on record as talking a great deal in this House about the importance of
prevention and the importance of community acceptance of the RCMP, the police,
the justice system in general.
So the last thing we want to do is to
broaden that gulf. We want to narrow it,
and there is the potential for that narrowing to happen here, but only if there
are certain safeguards and structures and constrictions placed on this.
So with those comments, I end my comments.
House
Business
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Prior to recognizing the honourable member
for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie), I will recognize the honourable government House
leader (Mr. Manness) with committee changes, I believe.
Hon. Clayton Manness
(Government House Leader): House business, Mr.
Speaker.
I would like to have the unanimous consent
of the House to transfer Bill 3, The Oil and Gas and Consequential Amendments
Act, from the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources to
the Standing Committee on Law Amendments.
Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable government House leader
have leave to switch that bill from one committee to the next? Leave? Just transferring from one committee to
another. Is there leave? (agreed)
Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I also would ask whether there
is unanimous consent to waive the rules to allow new departments to be
introduced after ten o'clock tonight.
Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to allow new departments to be
introduced after 10 p.m. Leave? Denied.
Committee
Change
Mr. Neil Gaudry (St.
Boniface): I move, seconded by the member for
Mr. Speaker: Agreed? (agreed)
* * *
Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin
Flon): Mr. Speaker, I would like to spend a few
minutes discussing the resolution that is proposed by the member for Sturgeon
Creek (Mr. McAlpine).
As my colleague before me suggested, there
is certainly a great of deal of sympathy on this side for the intent behind
this resolution. In fact, the program
itself, I think everyone recognizes, has the potential for significant benefit
to some of our communities.
But, Mr. Speaker, on the other hand, as my
colleague did suggest, there are some areas of concern. Whether you raise the concern from the
perspective of potential RCMP officers, those who are concerned about the
impact that this auxiliary force might have on the duties, the obligations, the
need for additional police officers, whether it is the RCMP or others, I think,
is a question that has to be raised.
I want to talk about the principle behind
the resolution, first of all. (interjection)
The Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), of course, from his seat continues to
chirp, and he will have an opportunity to put his thoughts, regardless of how
meaningless, on the record at a time of his choosing. We will all listen with bated breath to his
counsel.
Mr. Speaker, the problem that I have in
general with resolutions of this kind is that the government continues to serve
these up on a consistent basis from members of the back bench to applaud
itself, to pat itself on the back. I
wanted to spend a few minutes of time suggesting that what we really need from
the back bench of this government is some independent thinking. What we really need, instead of the Minister
of Justice (Mr. McCrae) saying to the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine),
to suggest that maybe he has a legitimate concern in his constituency, an issue
which the government is not raising, an issue which is of concern to the
Legislature, that he bring that forward, the government writes a resolution for
the member and says here, Mr. Member, Mr. Backbencher, why do you not present
this and pat the government on the back?
Mr. Speaker, that is what we have seen
from government backbenchers for the last three years. Instead of thoughtful, important resolutions,
we have backslapping resolutions from the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr.
McAlpine) and for other members of the back bench. The question is: Where is the independent thinking? Where is the critical analysis?
Mr. Speaker, this government has failed in
virtually every economic initiative it has begun. Those have been few and far between. Where is the member for Sturgeon Creek on a
resolution calling on the government to get busy and correct the problems that
exist, for example, in the Grow Bond program?
Where are the members for rural
Instead, we get‑‑
An Honourable Member: Every group in the
Mr. Storie: Every group that is studying economic
development, every group that is interested in economic development. The fact of the matter is‑‑
Point of
Order
Mr. McAlpine: Mr. Speaker, I think the member is straying
off the track of the resolution. He is
talking about economic development and everything like that. I think that the member clearly understands
that we are talking about volunteer auxiliary RCMP, and I think you might
suggest that he get back on the topic, please.
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member, I do not believe, has
a point of order. I believe the
honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) is being relevant.
* * *
Mr. Storie: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The point I was trying to make‑‑and
I appreciate the issue that is raised by the member for Sturgeon Creek‑‑is
that this resolution, the resolution that we are talking about here, Resolution
39, could have been more constructive.
Mr. Speaker, instead of being the kind of
resolution that simply pats the government on the back, there are hundreds and
hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of issues that require the attention of the
government, and all the backbenchers have to do is to use their imagination, to
use a modicum of independent thinking to raise those issues in the Legislature.
I suggest that the member for Sturgeon
Creek consider withdrawing this resolution.
Perhaps the member for Sturgeon Creek should consider reviewing some of
the resolutions that have been put forward by my colleagues the Liberals and
the opposition that have attempted to identify real issues, attempted to
propose real solutions instead of this backslapping.
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I did want to spend also some time on the
principle, the principle of volunteerism, which is the principle behind this
resolution. I want to say that we on
this side support the importance of having volunteers participate in one way or
another in our society. There can be no
doubt that volunteers contribute immensely to the well‑being of our
province. Whether you are talking about
the volunteers who support recreational activities, the many hundreds and
hundreds of people who coach, who are assistant coaches, who spend time
supporting our young people in their recreational endeavours; whether you are
talking about the hundreds and hundreds of hours that are spent by groups like
the chambers of commerce, the regional economic development groups, economic
development commissions, there is virtually every municipal council in the
province, they are contributing immensely to the well‑being of our
province, to our development.
An Honourable Member: Volunteer fire departments.
Mr. Storie: The member for
The difficulty comes when you assume that
is the first recourse and not the last recourse, when it assumes or suggests
that this volunteer activity usurps some of the essential services that are
currently being provided by firemen, by policemen, by law enforcement officers,
Mr. Speaker, that we have an obligation as a society to provide a level of
service that is roughly equivalent across the province, just as
constitutionally we have that obligation as a nation.
What happens here is the obligation that
falls on volunteers is disproportionate in smaller communities. In communities across the province where
there is no fire department, there is no municipal police force, where there are
limited government services, the obligations increasingly fall on
individuals. Some of us on this side are
concerned that that in itself is a dangerous direction, that the government can
simply absolve itself of responsibility to deliver services by saying it is
being taken care of by the volunteer sector.
That is true in terms of policing. It is as true there as it is in many other
areas of service. While I respect, and
members on this side respect the contribution that these volunteers in the Auxiliary
Policing Program may contribute, their contribution is recognized, we should
not equate that with policing services. We should not necessarily equate that
with the level and the quality and the professionalism that you are going to
get from the police forces in other parts of the province. The people in
Mr. Speaker, people in
So, the principle is fine. What we are concerned about is the sly, from
some people's perspective anyway, that is occurring in the delivery of service
across
When we get down to the RESOLVED in this
resolution, when we get down to the resolution, THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that
the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba commend the government of Manitoba for
introducing the Auxiliary Constable Program in Manitoba‑‑Mr.
Speaker, I do not think it requires the member for Sturgeon Creek to submit a
resolution to this House commending the government for doing something like
that.
Mr. Speaker, we would all hope that the
government would not require that kind of backslapping. I do not know any member of this Legislature
who has stood up and opposed the Auxiliary Policing Program. I do not know of any member of the
Legislature who has criticized that, so why do we require to spend the time of
the Legislature debating this kind of intellectual pap?
I said before, and I await a correction
from the member for Sturgeon Creek, that the member did not even prepare
this. The Minister of Justice (Mr.
McCrae) said, well, you know, the policing program is pretty good, why do you
not submit a resolution saying what a wonderful job I have done on the policing
program?
Mr. Speaker, there are legitimate problems
out there facing Manitobans, legitimate problems. As much as we all love and admire the
intention behind the Auxiliary Policing Program, I do not believe the member
for Sturgeon Creek needs to be commended for introducing this kind of
resolution.
It is self‑serving in the
worst. It abuses the time of private
members' hour. It abuses the rights of
the opposition parties in this Legislature, in particular, and it trivializes
the whole process.
So I do not want to finish my remarks by
suggesting in any way that my remarks should be construed as condemning or
attempting to undermine this program. I
am simply saying that the member did not have to introduce a resolution to get
my approbation. The member could have
asked me privately. In fact, if the
member had been doing some independent thinking, had been concerned about the
real issues, the issues that are affecting literally tens of thousands of young
people, of unemployed, of people on social assistance, we could have had a
resolution that would have had some meat to it and been worthy of everyone
participating in the debate.
Mr. George Hickes (Point
Douglas): I just want to put a few comments on record
here. The whole resolution on the
surface looks like an excellent idea. It
sounds good, and if it was workable it would be okay. But the only thing is that there are some
things that are lacking in this, and it is very scary.
When you have a person that only has two
weeks training, and you are putting him working with an RCMP officer, and all
of a sudden if they are thrown into a dangerous situation, what you are
actually doing is asking the RCMP to look out for themselves and also whoever
they are supposed to be taking along. So
if you look at the whole idea of volunteerism, like my colleague for Wellington
(Ms. Barrett) was saying, when you look at the whole resolution and look at
volunteers, you need to make sure that you have an adequate screening process,
because a lot of times some volunteers get into volunteerism for the wrong
reasons.
You have to make sure that you have
adequate volunteer screening processes to make sure that the volunteers that
you are recruiting have the adequate background in order to go into training
and help the officers fulfill their duties.
Also, where would this stop when you have
volunteer RCMP officers? If you go into
a northern community that has 90 percent unemployment, how do you ask people to
volunteer their time when they could be replacing an employment opportunity for
someone out of that community? As you
know, the RCMP deal with many issues, and when you stop someone on a highway,
or stop somebody in a community, you do not really know what is going to happen
and what to expect.
A lot of times when you pull someone over,
it could be just a traffic violation, when you go approach that vehicle, if you
have a confrontation, how will that individual with two weeks training react?
There are too many questions that are
unanswered, and I think it has to be sort of looked at a lot more closely. If it was a volunteer position where you are
recruiting young individuals, say 16, 17 years old, to work with the RCMP, and
hopefully would look at it as a career opportunity to get the exposure of being
an RCMP officer, that would be okay. But
then they would have to pick and choose where these volunteers would attend
with an RCMP officer, because you never know what is going to happen as soon as
you stop someone. You never know.
*
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You do not know if they have a gun beside
them or if they are going to attack the individual. Two weeks training, I just do not think is
adequate, because when you are dealing with individuals, even the whole stress
factor, how do these volunteers deal with that?
The RCMP officers, the city police officers, they get this kind of
training, so that they can deal with their stress. So when you talk about auxiliary constables,
I do not know how that would really work. (interjection)
Well, it is a volunteer service, and when you are depending on volunteers, you
do not know what you are getting. What
happens to the individuals?
Some are very impressive, and if they put
the wrong person in that kind of position, without adequate training, that
person could be very, very dangerous.
That is how vigilantes start up. They say I will try to right the wrongs
of the earth, and if you get one or two of those individuals as volunteer RCMP
officers, with the authority given to them by the community or the government,
anything can happen.
It is easy to say it will never happen,
but my colleague was talking about volunteers that work with children, and she
was saying that what happens with the volunteers that do work with children, a
lot of times they are in it for the wrong reasons. You do get people that have
abused children that they are supposed to be working with. So what would happen if you had a "Rambo"
out there running loose that is given permission to do what they want? I do not know. Two weeks training is not going to give you
enough time to screen people out. (interjection)
The member wants to put a few things on
record, so I will just end on that note.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (
If one looks at the idea of a volunteer
working with an RCMP officer in such programs as crime prevention, then it
would appear that a limited training process may be all that is necessary. But if we are looking at a broadening of those
duties, then I think a two‑week training program is a very limited time
for a young person to be given the kind of knowledge and expertise that RCMP
officers themselves take years to learn.
I want to address a number of issues in
this particular issue. First of all, let
us begin with the screening of these individuals. If we are looking at a screening process
necessary for an individual to work hand in hand and side by side with an RCMP
officer, we are looking at a relatively costly process. Screening is not
inexpensive. Screening requires making
use of facilities at the national level as well as the provincial level in
order to put these individuals through a computer system to make sure just what
their past experiences have been. Have
they had any infractions with the law?
Do they have any summary convictions?
It is also necessary to get character
witnesses for these particular individuals.
It is also important to take a look at their own educational background
and their school record and their pattern of behaviour, their attendance and
that type of thing. I see nothing within
this resolution or indeed the program itself to put into place that kind of
screening procedure.
Then we look at the training. The member for
Who is going to pay for those
trainers? Who is going to provide the
classrooms for that training to take place?
Who is going to ensure that that training is followed up, not just in
that two‑week period, but on an ongoing basis to make sure that as these
recruits are exposed to new and varied situations, they are also given the
appropriate training along the way.
One thing that has not been mentioned,
which I think is equally as important as the screening and the training, is the
evaluation. Nowhere in this resolution
do we talk about evaluation. How do we
make sure that this individual, who has accepted a very significant and
important volunteer function, is carrying out that volunteer function in an
appropriate manner?
What we have heard of complaints in a
number of nontrained personnel‑‑and one of the reasons why the RCMP
has such a first‑class reputation in this country is that there is
always, in addition to the training, a constant evaluation of their
performance. One of the weaknesses that
we have seen often in services‑‑for example, the
So if you are going to take these young
people and you are going to turn them into volunteers, you not only have to
provide them with training, but you have to make sure that they are constantly
evaluated. You know, power can be a very
dangerous thing, and when you put power in the hands of individuals without
training, then you can have a very explosive situation.
I think all of us have looked sometimes
with some amusement at people who, when they see a traffic, will take it upon
themselves to get out of their car and start directing traffic. Whether they
have any knowledge or expertise whatsoever, there they are, and you can almost
see the puffery growing in those individuals as they direct cars to the right
and to the left and through. That is the
kind of thing that can happen to a young person who has not been provided with
the appropriate training to deal with this.
Mr. Speaker, one of the issues with which
I will examine Hansard very carefully, because I did not hear the member say
it, was the member for Wellington's (Ms. Barrett) comment that the member made
reference to the volunteer being a backup in a domestic violence
situation. That I find absolutely
appalling. I cannot imagine putting someone with two weeks of training into a
domestic violence situation. I mean we
have a situation in which a woman has been beaten, or perhaps a child has been
sexually or physically assaulted, and we are going to put someone with two
weeks training as a backup for an RCMP officer in that kind of particular
situation.
It is not mentioned in the resolution, but
if the member did indeed mention it in his remarks, then I would suggest to him
that was not his original intent or purpose in his resolution, or I would hope
it was not his original intent and purpose, because it certainly should not be
part of the function of a volunteer person to be on the scene in that kind of
situation.
The other issue in the resolution which I
also found some difficulty with was the protection of crime scenes. Now, on the surface, that may appear to be a
very simple thing. The yellow lines or
ribbons go up and you bring in a volunteer to be on the scene, but what happens
if the person who has committed the crime returns to the scene of the crime in
order to dislocate the evidence?
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. When this matter is again before the House,
the honourable member for
* * *
Mr. Speaker: The hour being 6 p.m., I am leaving the Chair
with the understanding that the House will resume at 8 p.m. in Committee of
Supply.