LEGISLATIVE
ASSEMBLY OF
Monday,
July 5, 1993
The House met at 8 p.m.
ORDERS OF
THE DAY (Continued)
COMMITTEE
OF SUPPLY
(Concurrent
Sections)
CIVIL
SERVICE COMMISSION
Mr. Deputy Chairperson
(Marcel Laurendeau): Will the Committee of Supply please come to
order. The Committee of Supply is
resuming the consideration of the Estimates of the Department of the Civil Service
Commission. When the committee had last
sat, it had been considering item 1.(a) Executive Office on page 19.
Ms. Avis Gray
(Crescentwood): I am just wondering if the minister has the
material on appeals?
Hon. Darren Praznik
(Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission): Yes, Mr. Deputy Chair, I would like to just
correct the information. I was advised
earlier there were nine appeals. In fact, there were 12 appeals heard last
year. Nine were denied; two were
granted, and one was dismissed on time limits.
So the information, to the best of my
staff's ability today, I have available.
Ms. Gray: I am wondering if the minister could give us
an update on the Hay audit and the implementation committee and where that is
at.
Mr. Praznik: My understanding from the committee‑‑and
I am sure the member can appreciate the very untimely death of the committee's
chair created some difficulty no doubt when the Honourable Gerrie Hammond
passed away last year, last fall. The
work of the committee, however, continued on, and I am advised that they have
just about completed their work and within the next number of weeks will have a
completed report for myself as minister.
Ms. Gray: That completed report, now just to clarify,
does that report include basically recommendations for implementation of
changes? Is that what the report
is? Does the minister have a time frame
that he himself would like to see such recommendations implemented as part of
his ministry?
Mr. Praznik: As the member, I am sure, is aware, the
purpose of the implementation committee was to do a number of things, one of
which was to assess where these recommendations under the Hay audit report had
already been implemented, but also to make recommendations for how we can
implement many of the findings of the Hay audit report.
So I am looking forward to receiving that
report. It would be premature for me to
give a detailed analysis or a detailed answer to the member's questions simply
because I have not read the report and recommendations yet. I have not received them. When I do that, in
terms of timetable, then I will be able to make a better assessment.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I know the minister,
when he first undertook this project and set up the implementation committee, was
quite concerned about the fact that some of his initial time frames for having
things in place were not met for a variety of reasons. So even though the minister has not received
the report and has not had a chance to analyze it yet, I am wondering if he has
some sense however as to when he would like to see at least some of the
recommendations in this report implemented since this entire project is quite
overdue?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chair, just to let the member for
Crescentwood know‑‑I know she has a great interest in this area,
which we share‑‑but a number of the administrative changes, a
number of the recommendations that flowed out of the Hay audit committee have
already been tackled by the Civil Service Commission. A number of them have been implemented, so it
was areas that were somewhat more difficult or broader based that I am awaiting
the recommendations of this implementation committee.
I share the member's concern. Needless to say, we want to ensure that
opportunities are provided and that we are advancing the cause of promoting and
seeing more women in our public service and have opportunities for advancement
within our public service.
So I have not yet seen the report, the
final recommendations. I know I have
been briefed on occasion by members of the committee. Many of the Hay audit recommendations have
already been implemented by the Civil Service where they were able to do that,
where there were administrative changes that could be made. Some of the larger changes which require strategy
for implementation, I should have that report within the next number of
weeks. I hesitate to put an exact time
on it because it is not within my control, and there are a number of factors
that could get in the way over which I have no control. But when I have that, I
will want to look to some sort of speedy implementation of those
recommendations where that is practical.
Ms. Gray: The minister speaks to a number of
recommendations from the Hay audit that are already in place. I know that one of the issues that came up in
the Hay audit was the issue of waivers, and there were some suggestions within
that report as to how to deal with waivers.
I am wondering if, first of all, the minister could provide us with some
background information, some statistics on the number of waivers that currently
occur within the Civil Service Commission and some of the reasons. I will leave my question at that for now on
waivers.
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chair, there was one problem that
staff had flagged with me and I share with them in the use of the term
"waiver" in the Hay audit report, because the term "waiver"
obviously refers to waiving the competition to fill the position, and the
implication certainly was there that it is used many, many times to the disadvantage
of the promotion of women in the civil service, and I think that has some
validity. But there are many occasions
when the waiver in fact is used in a very appropriate manner: re‑employment, acting status, career
development initiatives, succession planning, interchange arrangements,
affirmative action initiatives, et cetera.
So there is good purpose for the
waiver. I do not fault the Hay audit
committee. I think that was something
that women in the civil service had flagged when the audit was being done, the
waiver as a problem, because that term comes up many times when people see
opportunities that have been given to specific individuals.
It is not an elimination of the
waiver. If I recall correctly, there was
some suggestion of that, not the entire doing away with the waiver system, but
certainly a very restrictive use of waivers.
One has to balance a host of objectives, but I think the point is made,
and I look forward to their recommendations and working with the commission
generally in how we deal with waivers.
I can tell the honourable member that I
think the waiver system generally, from my limited experience with it, there is
certainly a recognition that it should not be overused, and that it is not
necessarily a tool that should become commonplace by any stretch of the
imagination. We are very cognizant of
that concern about use of waivers.
Ms. Gray: I am not sure whether the minister was
stating that there should be different terminology used other than the term
waiver or he is concerned about the perception of the definition. Be that as it may, does the minister have
some statistics in terms of the number of times waivers have been used and the
reasons as well?
I certainly concur with the minister that
there are very appropriate occasions when there is a waiving of a competition,
and I have no difficulty with that at all.
* (2010)
Mr. Praznik: First of all, we do not have that data for
'92‑93, because we are in the process of revising our data collection
system and our ability to monitor in response to the Hay audit. We are in the
process of doing that, and I do not have that data for the member, or the
commission does not have that data for the member today.
But with respect to 1991‑92, which
would be a similar situation, there were approximately 275 direct appointment
waivers, approximately one‑half of those resulted from redeployment and
workforce adjustment measures. Of the
other direct appointments, and I do not have a specific breakdown, but they
were used for such things as term conversions, reorganizations, technical
appointments, term appointments, reassignment following LTD or workers
compensation claim, acting status, career development initiatives, succession
planning, affirmative action initiatives and interchange arrangements. So I do not have the breakdown specifically,
but I do not think we had many appeals resulting from or complaints resulting
from that use at all. There might be one
or two from time to time, that happens, but I think generally speaking the vast
majority of those have been used for the purposes that I have outlined.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would just like
to table for the benefit of the member, so she appreciates the change in data
collection, the new form that came out of the Hay audit which obviously
provides a much greater bit of information as to the purpose of direct
appointments, so I table that for the benefit of the member.
Ms. Gray: Does the minister have any breakdown of the
275 direct appointments, or actually the one‑half of those, the ones that
were made not as a result of redeployment?
Does he have a breakdown of that one‑half of the 275 in terms of
number of positions that were at a, what I would call, director level or
above? Does he have any breakdown in
terms of classification?
Mr. Praznik: No, I do not, because as I have pointed out
earlier, our data collection system did not allow for that detailed a
breakdown. That is why we, in fact, have
changed the data collection system. So
we should start to have that information in greater detail for next year.
Ms. Gray: In regard to the waiver system, just if the
minister could briefly explain: What is
the process, or more importantly who makes the final decision as to whether a
waiver of a competition will be allowed?
Mr. Praznik: Firstly, in the case of all departments, the
Civil Service Commission's authority for hiring is delegated to those
departments, so consequently it is the department who makes the decision. They are required to document the reasons for
the direct appointment, or waiver of competition, and that documentation is
subject to both an appeal and the audit of the Civil Service Commission.
Ms. Gray: I notice in the appointment summary for direct
appointments that one of the types of direct appointments is temporary acting
status and temporary casual. I can
appreciate the minister does not have any statistics, but can the minister's
staff give any idea of those direct appointments, the percentage of direct
appointments that might be in those two categories? I ask that because I would assume that may be
where a lot of the direct appointments occur.
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chair, in answer to the member's
question, as the member may be aware, I believe that we require that type of
appointment after you have put someone in to temporarily fill a position for 11
days.
I think the member's assessment is
probably fairly accurate from the feelings of the staff of the commission in
that many of them would be filling vacancies, many of which would be because of
maternity leaves, for example, where people have been brought up temporarily to
fill a position because of a maternity leave, or where someone has vacated a
position. Anywhere where you must fill
in for more than 11 days, one requires that direct appointment to be made.
Ms. Gray: Can the minister tell us, even though he has
not seen a final report of an implementation plan as a result of the Hay audit,
has the Civil Service Commission, because of that issue raised in the Hay
audit, have they dealt with their policy on waivers at all or made any changes
in the interim?
Mr. Praznik: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chair, I think in keeping
with the Hay audit report or some of the commentary of the Hay audit report,
the Civil Service Commission staff has been working with a departmental
committee to, I think, give people in the departments where the authority has
been delegated a greater sense of definition of the reasons why one would use
the criteria by which you would use direct appointment. I think one of the problems we have
experienced in the past, or I get a sense that it has been a problem in the
past, is that lack of real knowledge and understanding of the reasons why you
would use a direct appointment and what is appropriate and what is not.
So this committee, of which the Civil
Service Commission is a part, has certainly been working with the departments
to, I think, give greater definition to the purpose, and that is one of the
reasons why this particular forum has been developed and the lines between the
categories are clear, et cetera, for tracking.
If I recall the Hay audit report
correctly, one of the great concerns is if you are going to use this vehicle,
let it be used according to the rules and be used correctly. You cannot really track that if you do not
have the data, and you cannot get the data if you do not have the right
reporting procedure, and it does not work if people are not aware of the rules and
the procedures. So all of those are
slowly coming into place.
Ms. Gray: I want to bring up the one situation; this is
a deputy minister position that Loretta Clarke has filled. I bring that up as an example actually, and I
know my colleagues in the NDP caucus have raised it a number of times, and I
use it as an example because perhaps the minister could explain to us, was
there a waiver of a competition in that situation?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chair, first of all, I should
point out that the individual that has been raised by the member for
Crescentwood has been appointed temporarily until March of 1994, at which time
a competition will be held. The position
has been vacant since July of 1992. The
individual was considered qualified to be appointed on a temporary basis until
a competition is held: a long‑term
resident of the North; recently general manager of the Communities Economic
Development Board; president of the chamber of commerce; chair, Norman Regional
Hospital Board; past owner‑businesswoman of a pharmacy in Lynn Lake;
public relations work with Calm Air; a Bachelor of Science, I believe, and a
certificate in education. (interjection)
Mr. Praznik: Well, members speak about past political
affiliations. For some of us who come
from Selkirk, we remember Terry Sargeant; we remember Phil Eyler; we remember
Bill Shead, who is a federal Liberal candidate, who is now with the Department
of Veterans Affairs. I am sure one can
look for these kind of parallels in virtually every
* (2020)
Ms. Gray: In response to the minister, I do not really
care how qualified the individual is, because the question that I am asking,
and I do not care how many people have been appointed by Liberals, NDP or
Conservatives in the past. I thought
that this government wanted to see a change in terms of how things were handled
and that we started to depoliticize the civil service as opposed to continuing
to politicize the civil service.
I would ask the minister if he could
indicate to us, in that particular competition or position that was filled on a
temporary basis, what would the reason have been for a waiver in that instance
of this situation we are referring to.
Mr. Praznik: I am advised that the reason why it was
filled temporarily is that there was a backlog of work to be done;
consequently, it was necessary to fill the position temporarily, to deal with
the backlog of work, with the commitment, of course, to go to a competition.
Ms. Gray: Well, can the minister tell us‑‑certainly
one of the issues about waivers of competitions is not only in positions which
are hired or filled on a permanent basis, but certainly positions of a
temporary or acting basis. Oftentimes
individuals will say, whether they are outside the civil service or within,
that they do not get an opportunity to even apply for competitions for a
temporary or acting status position. Therefore, someone else appointed into
position has an opportunity to learn the functions of a particular job. Then, when the position does come up for
filling on a permanent basis, they feel that these individuals who are
appointed into the positions with no competition actually have an advantage.
So I would ask the minister: Why was there not a competition held, even
for an acting status for this position, even within the civil service which, as
the minister knows, can take less time than a full‑blown competition and
certainly might deal with the backlog/time issue?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chair, I say to the member that
the department had a backlog of work that it had to address and felt that it had
a qualified individual, I might indicate, in the affirmative action category
who could do this work. I would point
out to the member for Crescentwood, I know, in my own department, we have, over
the last number of months, been rotating people through management positions
when Mr. Farrell was acting chief executive officer of the Workers Compensation
Board, and there were a number of people that we put into temporary acting
appointments. A couple of women in our department,
for example, moved up to fill roles as we moved people up the ladder. I do not think she is suggesting that we
should have posted all of those competitions as well, all those positions to
competitions. We used some of them to
develop opportunities for management skills in people in our department. So I guess it is a balance.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister's answer
in regards to a backlog of work, I would imagine that every single employing
authority could use that reason for every single position they might need to
fill within the 26 departments of government.
So I find that reason quite flimsy.
I guess my question, and I ask this question so that any employing
authorities in government can hear it and know what they can use it when they
want to put someone into a position that they choose to without a
competition. Is this reason quite
readily accepted by the Civil Service Commission and the minister as a reason
for waiver?
Mr. Praznik: Obviously, there has to be in fact a backlog
of work. I just point out to the member
for Crescentwood that the same criteria or similar criteria is presently being
used by her federal leader to appoint candidates in certain constituencies. I
seem to recall reading in The Globe and Mail just yesterday that a candidate
appointed in a particular riding was done so because he was so busy he did not
have time to campaign for it. The point of the matter is, of course, the
department truly has to have a backlog of work and has to justify that
particular appointment.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would ask the
minister in his heart of hearts does he really support these types of
appointments, where in fact there is not even the opportunity for people within
the departments to apply for even these positions on a temporary or acting status
basis?
Mr. Praznik: Yes, first of all, I say to the member within
a variety of departments, including mine, where we have had opportunities to
move people through and give them opportunities to do management positions on a
temporary acting basis, we have made direct appointments to those. In some cases, they have been to give female
members of our staff management opportunities that they otherwise may not have.
So, quite frankly, there is a purpose for
them. They should always be used
sparingly, and there must in fact be some logical reason for it. I think the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr.
So, again, it is a balance. There are circumstances where it potentially
could be abused. There are circumstances
where it is very justified. It depends
on the individual case. I will support
it or not support it on a case‑by‑case view, but ultimately the
Civil Service Commission has the ability to review those decisions.
Ms. Gray: I agree with the minister that these
positions should be looked at case by case.
As I already mentioned, I concur with the fact that there are
circumstances where there is good reason for a waiver of competition. The minister uses the example of redeployment
as one of those.
I would ask the minister: Is he not concerned and is it no wonder that
the Women in Government organization and a number of individuals were concerned
when the Hay audit came out when one of these issues of waivers was raised,
when we have here in committee tonight the minister using backlog of work as a
reason to have a waiver for a competition?
I mean, really, no wonder there is extreme
concern about the Civil Service Commission and what goes on in terms of people
being hired to positions. I had really
thought and had hoped that this minister, and I heard him speak at a Women in
Government meeting a couple of years ago when he first became minister, would
bring a different flavour to the ministry, to the Civil Service Commission, and
that we would really see some changes in terms of how things are done.
I see this as direct political
interference. It is nothing different
than what has gone on for the last 10 years, but I had hoped we might see some
changes, particularly with this minister.
* (2030)
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think that if you look
at the circumstances of this particular case, if you look at the individual
involved and her qualifications, who is certainly a female, an affirmative
action category, very, very capable. I
just say to the member that I think perhaps the member has difficulty with this
situation in which it is used because of the politics of the individual, but in
other circumstances where the politics of an individual may not be known, I
have not yet heard the member raise it as an issue.
I think one has to appreciate the
circumstances. I appreciate her concern
that one should use these waivers sparingly, be cautious of the reason, but
there are many cases where, under similar circumstances, waivers have been used
to provide to women and other affirmative action candidates an opportunity for
management experience, which was certainly one of the thrusts of the Hay audit
report.
Mr. Steve Ashton
(Thompson): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I just want to finish
off this part of the discussion, because I know there are quite a few people I
have talked to who are quite curious about the particular appointment in
question. I just want to ask the
minister: Was this approved by the Civil
Service Commissioner in the Civil Service Commission?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, first of all, the
Civil Service Commission does have to give an approval. Their criteria is that, one, a competition
does have to be held at some point, that if you are filling on an acting basis
there has to be a commitment to hold a competition at some future date,
appropriate date, and, secondly, that the individual filling the position is
qualified.
I am sure that the member would not want
the commission to disqualify candidates simply because of their political
affiliation. If they are qualified for the
position and a competition is going to be held at a date that is acceptable to
the Civil Service Commission, they give their approval.
So in this particular case, I am advised
that the approval was given.
Mr. Ashton: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I was rather amused
by the minister's suggestion that surely we would not want to disqualify the
particular individual from further consideration. The individual was just appointed to the job,
a $75,000‑a‑year job, a senior job within the department, assistant
deputy minister's job.
Am I to take it then from the minister's
answer that approval was not given from the Civil Service Commission?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, as I indicated to the
member for Thompson, approval was given by the Civil Service Commission for
this to be a temporary appointment with a competition to take place as
committed in March 1994.
Mr. Ashton: Can the minister indicate exactly when the
competition will take place?
Mr. Praznik: It must take place by March 1994.
Mr. Ashton: I am just curious as to why‑‑the
minister talked about work piling up in the department‑‑no action
was taken, in going back to July, to ensure there was a competition made
available, why the government waited a year and then‑‑and I love
this word, Mr. Deputy Chairperson‑‑said it was impracticable to
have a competition. I mean, one year
after the position has been empty for that period of time, it was
impracticable. Why?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, as I indicated, the
application was made, the Commission approved it. If one wants to question why there was a
backlog of work in the department or what administrative circumstances led to
the position being vacant for a period of time and a backlog growing, then I think
that question is best put to the minister in his Estimates, and I believe the
members have had an opportunity to do that.
Mr. Ashton: The member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) did
attempt to get some answers out of the minister, and as usual the minister was
rather on the evasive side. I just say
that to anyone that looks at this, it is very, very clear that the minister
made a political appointment, and the intent was very clear. If the intent had been to advertise the
position and get someone to deal with that backlog of work that the minister
referred to, the government had a year.
I must say that, when one issues Orders‑in‑Council,
talking about it being impracticable to hold competitions, I would appreciate
some‑‑(interjection) Well, I am sorry if my pronunciation is
wrong. Quite frankly, it is a word that
does not appear in most people's dictionary when you have had a year to fill
the appointment.
I want to ask the minister in terms of his
role: Did the minister ask the Minister
of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey), when the Minister of Northern Affairs
presumably came forward with this name that just happened to come to the
minister's mind, no accident that the individual was the Tory candidate in
Thompson in 1990 or had previously worked for the minister as I believe a
special assistant, executive assistant, worked in the minister's office? Did the minister in any way, shape or form
ask if there might be other qualified people within the department or many
people within the North?
I know of many people, and given the fact
that you are dealing with many aboriginal communities, many aboriginal people
that certainly would be eminently qualified for a senior management position
within government. Did the minister
raise that question with the Minister of Northern Affairs.
Mr. Praznik: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chair, just to point out by
way of process to the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), when applications are
made for a waiver or direct appointment, or they go through the process, the
Minister responsible for The Civil Service Act, which I am, is not part of that
loop. My approval is not required in any
way, and so the matter does not come to my desk, quite frankly.
It is dealt with in the commission which
has a degree of independence from the minister, which we have discussed on
other occasion. So, if the member is
asking me specifically, was I part of that loop of approval? No, I was not. The commission independently reviews those
applications, assesses whether or not the individual is qualified for the job
in question, which the individual, I am sure the member would agree, is
qualified for the position, based on the information that has been provided.
The commitment was made to hold a
competition within a reasonable time period, given the position, and the Civil
Service gave their approval just as they would deal with any other application
from the department involving any other individual who had not run for any
political party.
Mr. Ashton: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think there would
be no doubt if a fair and open competition had been held during that one‑year
period, but that has not happened. We
now have someone in an acting position.
I think the minister has to recognize that
some of us are a little bit suspicious of the correlation between the
individual who received the "acting appointment" and talk about being
qualified. Perhaps that individual might
have the qualification of that little blue card that other northerners might
not have in the way of qualifications, quite a few northerners. I realize that the Tories are in a minority
in northern
In fact, I hope the minister, when he was
talking about affirmative action being a criterion in this, would indicate that
there was really no attempt, because there was no open interview process to
ensure that anything took part in the decision‑making process here,
including affirmative action. So I find
it rather interesting. We shall see, Mr.
Deputy Chairperson, where this matter rests.
I would like to ask the minister a follow‑up
question in terms of if the minister can indicate if there are any other
hirings in the Department of Northern Affairs that have not gone through the
normal process, and if the minister has ensured himself that all jobs in the
Department of Northern Affairs where hiring has taken place in the last couple
of years have been conducted within normal civil service practice.
Mr. Praznik: Firstly, the member talks about reluctance
and some skepticism on political names.
Let me tell you I can sympathize with that position, because I had the
same skepticism when Mr. Terry Sargeant was hired by the provincial government
following his defeat as my member of Parliament for Portage‑Interlake in
1984, the same skepticism when we saw a host of other individuals brought into
positions, the same skepticism with individuals that we find from time to time
who are former political staff people for the Pawley administration who are in
the civil service. One could have the
same skepticism, ask the same questions, and wonder if a little orange card had
not helped them out.
But we will not get into that in great
detail, because that is a natural skepticism, and I can certainly appreciate
where the member is coming from. I know
there are plenty of occasions in the past years, particularly between 1981 and
1988, and 1969 and 1977 when one could have had the same skepticism if I were
sitting in his seat as an opposition member.
So I certainly appreciate where his question is coming from.
* (2040)
With respect to the Department of Northern
Affairs, my staff advise me that they are not aware of any other waiver
applications coming forward from that department, and I do not believe‑‑I
look to them for advice‑‑that there were any appeals of any
competitions held in that department that were successful.
Mr. Ashton: But there were not waivers, and we shall
see. I do indicate to the minister again
that, when we have appointments that are obviously being made in what is not a
normal process to anybody‑‑any outside observer would not suggest
that the one‑year delay and this supposed temporary appointment was
anything other than a direct political appointment.
Be that as it may, let the Minister of
Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) and the minister of the Civil Service Commission
(Mr. Praznik) recognize it, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, a political appointment in
this case being a political appointment instead of trying to work around the
civil service system. As I have said to
the minister, I would hope that the many other northerners who are at least as
qualified, without getting into relative qualifications for the position, will
have the opportunity to apply for the job.
I want to ask the minister a follow‑up. I mentioned in terms of affirmative action,
and I gave notice prior to five o'clock, what are the current figures in terms
of target groups, in terms of affirmative action this year, and how do they
compare to the previous year?
(Mrs. Shirley Render, Acting Deputy
Chairperson, in the Chair)
Mr. Praznik: Madam Acting Deputy Chair, in providing that
information for the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) in terms of the identified
affirmative action categories, in respect to their growth, if I may provide
that by comparison of data, and I will compare to their numbers in the civil
service in percentage in the civil service as of March 31, 1987, compared with
March 19, 1993.
In terms of females‑‑remember
I have to put the caveat on this information that it is all the result of self‑declaration,
that there may be other individuals who have chosen not to declare an
affirmative action category. I know the
member is familiar with that, but I think it is worth noting the caveat. In
terms of females, as of March 31, 1987, 45.6 percent of the public service were
females compared to 49.31 percent today.
On the aboriginal side, in 1987, 3.81
percent of our civil servants had declared themselves to be in that aboriginal
category. That is 5.28 percent today.
In the disabled category, March 31, 1987,
2.01 percent of the public service had declared themselves to be in the
disabled category. That is 2.69 percent
today, and in terms of the visible minority category in 1987 it was 2.26
percent, whereas today it is 2.63 percent.
Again, from 410 in this category to 472.
I would point out to the member as well
that, although we may not be exactly where we want to be in terms of targets,
we have gone through a fairly significant reduction in positions in the last
number of years, and so the opportunities to bring new people into the civil
service have been considerably reduced, as I am sure the member appreciates.
Mr. Ashton: Madam Acting Deputy Chairperson, I asked in
terms of '92‑93. I am quite aware
of the historical data. I am wondering
if the minister could provide information on the current situation in terms of
both numbers and percentage as well as the current target figures for the
various target groups.
Mr. Praznik: Yes, Madam Acting Deputy Chair, with respect
to 1992 just by those same categories, females represented 48.8 percent in
March 21, 1992 compared to 49.31 percent in 1993. Aboriginal represented 5.04
percent in March of 1992; it is increased to 5.28 percent in March of
1993. Disabled category represented 2.66
percent in March of '92, and that has increased just slightly to 2.69 percent,
an increase of actually three individuals.
On the visible minority declaration, we have dropped just slightly from
2.7 percent to 2.63 percent.
Mr. Ashton: What are the comparative numbers for those
two years?
Mr. Praznik: Yes, by category again, female, 8,927
compared to 8,856, again pointing out to the member that the size of the civil
service has decreased in the last year.
On the aboriginal side, 922 in 1992 to 948 in this year; it has
increased. On the disabled side, 486 in
1992 to 483 in 1993, and visible minority, 493 in 1992 to 472 in March of 1993.
Mr. Ashton: And what are the current target figures?
Mr. Praznik: Madam Acting Deputy Chairperson, the target,
which is to be over a 15‑, 20‑year period if I recall correctly
from my information from staff, in terms of females it is to be 50
percent. So we are just about there.
On the aboriginal side, it is to be 10 percent,
although the 5.28 percent in terms of the labour force, the aboriginal
communities say accounts for about 5 percent of the labour force. So we are on target in terms of labour force
availability but not according to percentage of population. I think that is reflective of a very large
number of younger people in the aboriginal community who are not yet in the
labour force age.
Of the disabled community, our target is 7
percent, and in the visible minority, about 6 percent.
Mr. Ashton: I thank the minister. I point out in terms of aboriginal people
that the labour force would hardly be a fair measure. Aboriginal people have had much lower
participation rates in the labour force‑‑adults, those over the age
of 16‑‑and it is largely as a result of the lack of job
opportunities. Many people just simply
do not register in communities for job opportunities.
I am just wondering if the minister has
any concerns about the fact that‑‑and the minister is correct, this
is a 15‑year program that was put in place by the previous government.
Is the minister not concerned about the
fact that, in terms of visible minority representation within the civil
service, this is the second year in a row, as I recall, where there has been a
direct reduction in the number of visible minority people, both as a percentage
and as a total number of employees within the civil service?
* (2050)
Mr. Praznik: Yes, Madam Acting Deputy Chairperson, I am
sure the member for Thompson‑‑we have had this discussion both
inside this committee room and privately before, and I think he appreciates
some of the conflicting principles that come into play here.
One of the reasons obviously for some of
the decline in the last year was, under the terms of the collective agreement
and the bumping provisions, obviously, that those who were hired, the seniority
provisions do not favour those people who are our newest hirings, particularly
if they are in term positions, et cetera.
So the principle of seniority, which is
part of our collective agreement, sometimes conflicts, when you are in a
downsizing situation, with retention of your latest hirings. It is a dilemma I am sure the member
appreciates because they are both valid principles.
Another concern that I share with him as
minister responsible is the ability to provide not just opportunities in the
civil service for our target categories, but also the opportunities for the
development of role models in more senior positions, having people in senior
positions who can appreciate and recruit, et cetera, and assist in recruiting,
be role models‑‑and one gets again into the conflicting principles.
I know in discussions that I have had with
the Manitoba Government Employees'
But I would point out to the member, as well,
that although we may have disagreements on Bill 22 and some of the conflicting
principles that come into play there, the fact that we were able to avoid a
further 500 or so layoffs in the civil service this year has certainly
benefited our category groups because, as our more recent hirings, they are
likely to have been‑‑and I do not have a data because we did not
have to identify 500 positions to eliminate, but the odds are that they would
have been more heavily affected by those 500 layoffs or so than other
categories. So, although we may disagree
on some of those conflicting principles in Bill 22, one of the side benefits to
that legislation is certainly some protection at least to our more recent
hirings in the affirmative action categories.
Mr. Ashton: Madam Acting Deputy Chairperson, I am
concerned here that for two years in a row, and I think that the minister
confirms that‑‑I know he covered a number of other issues‑‑but
last year the same situation arose, there was small, if any, progress‑‑relatively
small progress‑‑in the case of a number of the other target groups
which would be expected over time. In
this case there has actually been a drop in terms of the physically
handicapped, disabled. In terms of
absolute numbers, it is basically very similar, but there has been a drop in
terms of visible minority once again.
I would like to ask the minister, and I
note under Employment Services that one SY was eliminated in the area that
deals with identifying barriers and issues related to affirmative action,
delivering affirmative action programs and activities, and consults with
departments on affirmative action plans, strategies, to achieve objectives and
reviews progress, if it is not somewhat inconsistent to be removing the
administrative support position in this particular case from an area where
there is obviously some difficulty.
While the minister can talk about the
impact of layoffs, and we are all aware of the layoffs and the positions that
have been eliminated, the impact that is having on the civil service, it would
seem to me that, if one is serious about affirmative action and identifying for
two years in a row that there has not only been no progress in terms of visible
minorities but that there has actually been a decline, perhaps not only should
there not be a cut, but there should be some renewed emphasis in trying to deal
with that particular problem. Does the
minister not feel that there is some inconsistency in taking that action within
the department?
Mr. Praznik: Madam Acting Deputy Chair, first of all, the
one position that the member refers to that has been eliminated, that one
particular SY, was an Administrative Support position, as the member
appreciates. We were able to handle that
by the amalgamation of a variety of offices that allowed us to eliminate that
position and still provide the administrative support to our officers. I know some of the work that has taken place
by commissioned staff, and working with the various groups that we have
organized, the consolidation of our affirmative action programs and career
development has certainly been refocusing our efforts, and I think attempting
to improve our ability to recruit.
I say to the member, I agree with him that
there is certainly some difficulty here, and there are a host of conflicting
principles that have come into play that have made it somewhat more difficult
to deal with affirmative action hiring.
I must admit, I can appreciate the arguments when we have met with the MGEU
and their position, but it certainly is not one that allows us to develop at
the more senior levels the kind of role models and individuals that provide the
opportunities that see people in those categories move forward.
I respect the principles. I respect where they are coming from, but there
are a host of conflicts here that do make it somewhat more difficult. Ultimately, the main problem, of course, is
that we have not had the positions coming open in the last couple of years,
because of budgetary restraint, that would have allowed us to provide those
kinds of opportunities. That is
regrettable from the affirmative action point of view. So we have been in somewhat of a holding
pattern, as the member can appreciate.
We just have not had the opportunities.
Regrettably, I cannot do anything about
that. We do not have those positions,
and I cannot create them. So we try to
do the best with what we have available.
Mr. Ashton: Unless, of course, it is impracticable to
hold civil service competitions. One has
to have direct appointment.
(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)
Mr. Praznik: Affirmative action.
Mr. Ashton: Well, the minister says affirmative
action. Perhaps the minister might want
to look in northern
I want to deal with a couple of other
questions in terms of the process in terms of civil service hiring, and I gave
notice of this earlier, Mr. Deputy Chairperson.
I would like to ask the minister what the
current number‑‑and I asked this question last year. I think, perhaps, in the shuffle it was not a
communicated follow‑up in terms of number of employees, but I am
wondering if there has been any analysis of the number of employees after the
most recent round of layoffs in the Departments of Health, Family Services as
of last week.
What I am looking for is the number of
civil servants outside of the city of Winnipeg and inside the city of Winnipeg
over the last number of years, and particularly comparing, prior to the much
ballyhooed decentralization announcement of the government before the election
and the reality of the number of job losses that have taken place since that
time. I am looking, again, for numbers
of positions, because that is the key thing that matters to the communities
involved.
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chair, first of all, I say to the
member, if I recall the discussion last year, and the staff and I were
discussing why the member did not get the information that he believed he was
to get, I think if we go back to last year there was some difficulty with the
request because we did not keep information in the kind of manner that the
member requested it.
All that I could provide the member, quite
frankly‑‑and this is not really fair to the question that he asked‑‑is
really a snapshot of the geographic location of our employees throughout the
province, not the positions available.
So, if there were vacancies, I understand
that would not show up in this list. So
it is not a listing of provincial government positions outside of
So the form in which the data, in fact,
that the member requested last year was, quite frankly, not available in that
form. That is why I believe we even
discussed that at committee last year, if my memory serves me correct, and it
may be wrong.
But, again, I do not have that kind of
exact numbers for the member. All I have
is the snapshot which would not necessarily be accurate for kind of purposes
that I think he intends.
Mr. Ashton: I do not care, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if the
minister has Polaroids or Kodaks or whatever.
I am just asking for the information.
I would point out that information has to be available somewhere. I mean, the government had a policy of
decentralization. Surely it knows, and
has known the last number of years, where its jobs are, where its people are
employed.
I asked this question last year. My understanding was I would receive some
information, given any difficulties within the system.
If the minister does not have that
available now, I will stress again that I would appreciate, at a follow‑up
time, to receive a list of the jobs and whatever explanatory notes, in terms of
the methodology used, both in rural, northern Manitoba and within the city, the
numbers of jobs and going back to 1989, to look at what has happened before and
after decentralization. Because I know in my own community many people are
concerned that, despite the talk of decentralization, there are actually fewer
jobs now in the civil service than there were before, and I think people need
to know the bottom line.
* (2100)
I have a further question, Mr. Deputy
Chairperson, just to ask the minister as well, or a concern to raise, and that
is in terms of training and retraining.
I have been contacted by a number of
people affected by the announced layoffs, particularly recently by those in the
Children's Dental Program, who expressed some concern about the difficulty in
receiving commitments to follow through on proper retraining. I would like to ask the minister to perhaps
give an update in terms of that to the committee and raise the concern that was
expressed to me about the fact that there are a number of people now who feel
that the commitments that were put in place have not been followed. So if I could get the information on
decentralization, rural and
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chair, to the first part of the
member's question, with respect to the data that he asked for: positions in a community, quite frankly we do
not have that. That is available on a
department‑by‑department basis in their breakdown in the Estimates.
All that we can provide him is on a given
day the number of people who are actually employed, not the positions
available, and there is a difference. If
there are positions being filled, it may be very close, likely is very close,
but we will endeavour to give him some of those snapshots in time and with the
appropriate caveats.
The second question with respect to
retraining. As the member can
appreciate, we have been fairly successful throughout the reorganization of
government in being able to find other opportunities for people whose positions
had been eliminated in the budget process, but there has been one area that has
been most difficult, and the member has hit upon it: those who were employed in the dental
program. I admit that fully, simply
because their skills are so unique they are not easily transferable to other
aspects of government if they want to continue in that dental area. If they want to have a complete career
change, it is much easier.
I am pleased to indicate, I believe last
week an announcement was made that an unprecedented agreement between the
federal government and the Manitoba government has been made to purchase, at a
negotiated price, a block of eight seats from the Wascana Institute this year
and approximately another eight seats next year to allow unemployed dental
nurses to become dental hygienists, a career very much in demand in the rural
areas.
The price per seat is approximately
$17,000. The federal government pays
$10,000 per seat plus the UIC benefits.
The province covers the remaining‑‑$7,375 to be exact‑‑per
student. The total provincial commitment for '93‑94 is $59,000,
approximately the same for the next fiscal year.
A retraining package has also been offered
to the dental assistants.
A third choice is also available to either
dental nurses or assistants, that is specifically an orthomodule offered by the
Manitoba Dental Association to prepare for work in an orthodontic
practice. The cost is approximately $500
per student for 40 hours.
Finally, for those dental employees who
wish to pursue re‑employment within the government, consideration will be
given to individual retraining on a case‑by‑case basis, example,
computer training.
So we have a multifaceted training
program. I am very hopeful that we are
going to be able to, by and large, have the same success with the 49 or so
individuals who are affected by this program elimination‑‑reduction
as we had with other areas.
I believe in the case of the Queen's
Printer, for example, where there were 49 individuals, a number who chose to
retire were of that particular age, but of the majority who were affected, all
but two, as of a few weeks ago, had been placed in other positions throughout
the civil service.
So we have staff in departments and staff
in the commission who have worked very, very hard to ensure that we have found
other opportunities for most of the people affected by those budget
decisions. It has not been our intention
to put individuals out on the street, and by and large we have been successful
at that.
Hon. Linda McIntosh
(Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs):
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I just have one quick question. It was a follow‑up to a comment that
was made earlier. I am interested to
know if the minister has any concept of how many people might not declare.
I am personally aware of three females and
one handicapped person who absolutely refuse to declare that they are female or
handicapped. They just want to be
treated like anybody else. Do you have
any idea on how many might not fill out that section or choose to report?
Mr. Praznik: Yes, in answer to the member's question, we
have no way at all of knowing the number of people who have not declared.
That obviously presents a problem in
determining the reliability of your numbers.
We have really no way other than our own anecdotes to assess that
problem.
Mrs. McIntosh: A further clarification, if the person
specifically asks for that kind of privacy and wants to be treated as equal
rather than special status or affirmative action, the employer and the
immediate supervisor would not break faith with that privacy and report that
that person was in a particular category?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the only exception to
that rule, I am advised, is the male/female breakdown, because that we get from
standard information. But in terms of
the other categories, we have no way of knowing. Of course, the information is collected
centrally, so in the case of visible minorities, et cetera, there would be no
way of accumulating that data unless one did a complete check of every manager,
and they do not even know whether a person is declared or not.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I have a number of
questions in the areas of the Civil Service Commission and appeals, staff
training and development, the Affirmative Action Program and also French
Language Services.
Going back to the appeals, and I thank the
minister for handing out the information on the appeals, I am wondering if the
minister could help clarify for myself.
One of the appeals, the appeal, Win‑‑I do not know how to
pronounce the last name‑‑Torchia, T‑o‑r‑c‑h‑i‑a‑‑can
the minister explain what exactly technical officers are?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I believe the
member's question is: What is Section 32
of the act?
Section 32 of the act indicates, and I
just read it to the member, as we both work through this: Unless they are appointed by act of the
Legislature, the Lieutenant‑Governor‑in‑Council shall appoint
(a) deputy ministers, the clerk of the Executive Council, the Clerk of the
Legislation Assembly, and other technical officers; and (b) the members, or
members of the board of management or boards of directors, of agencies of the
government with respect to any provision of this act that is brought into
force.
* (2110)
I believe the issue was the definition of
technical officer by regulation? (interjection) That is right, and the
recommendation of the board was for us to have the more appropriate regulation
in place to finding those technical officers.
I believe I have that recommendation, and we are working it through the
process to correct that deficiency.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Is there something some honourable members
would like to put on the record? We are
having trouble hearing it at this end.
If we could just tone it down a little bit.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister then is
indicating that as a result of this appeal, with the recommendation that the
regulations be changed, the department is currently working on that now. Is that correct?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chair, traditionally, technical
appointments have been what the member, to sum it up simply, would be what
people refer to as political appointments, political positions, special assistants,
executive assistants, Executive Council staff, and other appointments that
would not have civil service status.
One of the things that this appeal
discovered was, oh, for a long time, a deficiency in this regulation that has,
in terms of the specific definition, been around for a number of
administrations, and they have made recommendations on how this should be
corrected. I am waiting for that to work
its way through the legal process, et cetera, to give me a recommendation that
I would then consider taking forward to cabinet. As I am sure the member can appreciate, it is
to define those positions that do not carry with it the protection of civil
service status.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, can the minister tell
us: Does he have a sense of which type of positions he would like to see as
part of the technical officer, to be considered as part of the technical
officers, if that is the correct way to define that? I can appreciate that there has been past
practice over the last number of years, but what other positions might then be
inclusive of technical officers?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if the member could
repeat her question.
Ms. Gray: If I have this correct, I am just wondering what
type of positions is the commission or the minister or the department looking
at to be inclusive as under a technical officer or under a technical position.
Mr. Praznik: They would be positions that do not carry
with it civil service status as the acts indicated; they include deputy
ministers, can include assistant deputy ministers from time to time who would
be part of the management, would not be part of the bargaining unit or within
the civil service. It gives the ability
to make a direct appointment to a person who basically is at the pleasure of
Lieutenant‑Governor‑in‑Council without any of the protections
of the act, very senior positions that the Lieutenant‑Governor‑in‑Council
would so choose, as I am sure the the member can appreciate, and as well as the
positions that are traditionally viewed as political positions like staff of
Executive Council and ministers' assistants.
Ms. Gray: To clarify, is the minister saying that with
this change in regulation they would be looking at all positions that are
considered management, i.e., that do not have status under a union
agreement? I would hope that is not the
case.
Mr. Praznik: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, although there
is some difficulty in defining this, specifically because it gives cabinet the
ability to make an appointment under this section, it can include assistant
deputy minister, senior management, not career civil servants in those
positions. This is outside of that
vehicle. It gives government the ability
to make an appointment as a government decision to fill a senior management
position, in addition to the regular political staff‑type positions.
I think, if the member recalls the Hay
audit, as I know the member is very familiar with it in some of the discussions
we had, this is the type of vehicle traditionally used for government to fill a
particular position that they wanted to fill; senior management lives and dies
with that government in essence, not protected through The Civil Service Act,
not a career civil servant. It flags that
individual as someone who is the direct appointment of the government in that
specific position.
I know that, when we had discussions with
the Hay audit implementation committee and with Manitoba Women in Government, I
think the suggestion was made to flag those appointments as people who come in
specifically because the government of the day wants them in that senior
position to do the job in that senior position.
Of course, as for their appointment, they are not career civil
servants. They have been slipped into
the civil servants, but they live and die with the government of the day.
Ms. Gray: Is the minister suggesting, though, that we
want to move to a system where in fact we have positions such as director
positions and assistant deputy ministers, be given the opportunity to be not
filled through civil service competition, that we want to move that
politicization of positions down from a deputy minister and political staff
level?
I mean, I have no difficulty with deputy
ministers being appointed by ministers of the Crown, and I have no difficulty
with political staff being appointed.
But I thought one of the concerns that was mentioned, I think by the
Minister of Labour in discussions with Women in Government, as an example, is
that you wanted to move toward the depoliticization of the civil service.
Unless I am missing something here, I see this change of regulations, even
though it has been done in past practice, that it is really just accommodating
that politicization, so I would ask for a clarification on that.
Mr. Praznik: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chair, first of all, I do not
think the issue was the politicization of the civil service. I think, for those of us who have worked in
the capacity of ministers or worked within the civil service, I think the
member would agree that large "P" Politics in the civil service is‑‑I
mean, it is there to some degree, but I do not think it is by far a large‑bred
practice in any administration. I think
my experience is, with the vast majority of public servants, they do their
job. They may have their political
beliefs and political activity outside of the office, but they do their
job. I do not think our civil service in
What this provision does, and it has been
there in the act for many, many years, is it allows a government to make some
senior management appointments and flag those people as their appointments.
* (2120)
I know when we had discussions with
Manitoba Women in Government, my recollection of part of that discussion
was: Do not bury people you want to
bring into government in the civil service process. There should be a mechanism where you clearly
say we are bringing this person in to manage a particular area or to do a
particular job and they are identified as such.
They are being brought in by cabinet which wants a specific job done by
that individual. They are not afforded
the protection of The Civil Service Act.
They are not necessarily career civil servants, but they are there to do
a job that the cabinet has chosen to want done.
I think that is a prerogative, quite
frankly, that you have to leave to any cabinet of any political party: the ability to make some, from time to time,
important management appointments that they feel comfortable with, to implement
the policies that they wish to implement.
It is the balance between not politicizing the civil service and still
having the ability as government to bring from time to time into administration
the people you specifically want to do a job and, as Manitoba Women in
Government seemed to indicate at the time, having a mechanism to specifically
flag those individuals, do it up front was a good thing.
This provision is in the act. It requires some further clarification by
regulation, which we intend to do. I say
to the member, although one could say it is there and you could make every
appointment under this section, the reality of it is that these types of appointments
are very, very rare indeed and probably will continue to be no matter who is in
power in Manitoba.
I do believe you have to have this type of
provision so that the cabinet of the day, the government of the day has the
ability up front to bring into service from time to time people it wishes to
take on senior and important administrative roles in the government. Clearly, a new government coming into power
has the ability to reverse the Order‑in‑Council and eliminate that
person very quickly. So it is one of
those balance issues, and I think it is a fair provision. It has been used for decades sparingly.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, well, given the
minister's comments whether I agree or disagree with him, but given what he has
just said and explained then, does he then concur that the example we used
previously of Loretta Clarke, is that an example that falls into that category
that the minister has just referred to?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, first of all, with
the individual in question, one difference, of course, between the two vehicles
is there is a commitment to, within nine months, hold a competition for that
position, which is not the case when these types of appointments are made, but
the individual involved is a very well‑qualified individual who will, if
she chooses to, compete for that position later on in the year. I say this to the member, it is easy always
to flag an individual who may have some known political support for a party or
have been a candidate for a party, but I think if the member goes through the
annals of governments of all political stripes, we could all point to examples
where individuals have been hired who have been qualified for positions and the
accusation is made that it is a political appointment.
In her own political party I can think of
a number of individuals who over the years were given senior appointments after
they either lost a seat or were unsuccessful candidates. I am sure if her party wins the next federal
election those types of appointments and things will happen from time to time,
and they may be very well‑qualified individuals who properly go through
the system, and they will be tagged as the member is tagging this individual in
Thompson because they have stood for office in a political party. That is always going to be part of the
process.
I am sure the criticism is going to be
made, but in this particular case I would remind the member that the individual
in this department is a very well‑qualified individual and had the
approval for this by the Civil Service because there will, in fact, be a
competition for this position. Whether
or not that individual competes is a different question. They may or they may not, but there will be a
competition, whereas this other vehicle is a somewhat different circumstance.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I still would ask the
question whether the example of the assistant deputy minister in the Department
of Northern Affairs, is the minister clear that is simply another waiver of
competition because of backlog of work or is that to be a position that could
be tagged, as the minister uses the term, to force someone that the government,
rightly or wrongly, wants to bring in to do a particular job? I am just asking for clarification on which is
it.
Mr. Praznik: I would advise the honourable member that if
the Department of Northern Affairs was to choose not to hold a competition for
this appointment they would be forced under the act and by the commission to
make a technical appointment.
They intend to go forward with a
competition, and we will have to await the results of that competition. But the regrettable thing here of course is
no member of this committee has raised any other circumstance where a female or
a visible minority has been temporarily appointed into an acting status
position for a number of months, what have you, to give them experience or
ability or opportunity to fill that position except this individual in
Thompson.
I guess when you stand for office for a
political party you are always going to be open to that type of accusation just
as members of my party will make it about the member for Crescentwood's (Ms.
Gray) party or the New Democratic Party when they were in power. That is part of the political game.
But ultimately the individual has stood
the test set by the commission for this type of action of being qualified, and
the department has made a commitment to hold, within what the commission deems
a reasonable time, competition for the job.
We will just have to await the results of that competition.
Ms. Gray: Well, the issue of whether the person is
qualified is not an issue in the sense that obviously when people are hired
into a position, whether it is by competition or whether it is a waiver of
competition, one would assume, one would hope and we expect that person is
qualified and is competent.
I certainly have no doubt in my mind that
the individual, in this case the Assistant Deputy Minister of Northern Affairs,
Loretta Clarke, is competent. That is
not the issue. The issue here we are
discussing is a waiver of a competition and the reasons for it. So competency of the individual is not the
issue.
Now, the minister asked for another
example. Unfortunately, I do not have
examples available to me of all the other departments, but you can look at the
appeals that were handed out this evening by the minister. Again, we have an example of the‑‑was
it director or ADM of Status of Women where there was an appeal in regard to
the technical classification?
Basically, my question would be to the minister
on this particular case, and, again, with all due respect to the individual who
is in the position and, yes, certainly she is a qualified individual, but,
again, the question remains in this particular situation, there was a
competition, a bulletin, and then a decision was made later on to have a waiver
of the competition.
So I would ask the minister, in this
particular case, as another example, what were the reasons for the waiver of
competition?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, my understanding of
that particular issue was that the competition was in fact cancelled. The
department made a technical appointment pursuant to the act which they have the
authority to do.
If I recall the minister's answer to
statements in the House, after reviewing candidates in the competition, the
minister felt there was not a suitable candidate coming forward and decided to
make a technical appointment which is her right to do under the act as long as
the proper procedures are followed. That
is what in fact happened.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I know that in a
number of competitions which are held and sometimes for a variety of reasons,
including the competency of the candidates, an individual who is suitable for
the position is not found. Oftentimes, the usual course of action is that the
competition or bulletin is repeated.
Can the minister indicate why that was not
done in this case?
Mr. Praznik: Because the minister responsible chose to
make a technical appointment. That is
why it was not bulletined again, because that decision was made.
* (2130)
Ms. Gray: Can the minister tell us‑‑I do
not know if he has these statistics‑‑how many times within the
civil service that there have been competitions held, a suitable candidate was
not found and then it was decided by a minister or ultimately through the
authority of a minister, even if it was an employing authority underneath, that
there was an appointment made directly through a waiver at that point? I do not imagine you have that.
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we do not have that
specific data for the member. It is not
something that occurs often, but it does occur from time to time and has
occurred under a variety of administrations.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I will not belabour
this point anymore, but again suffice it to say I think there are a number of
examples, again, where people within the civil service, whether they are women,
whether they are individuals of an affirmative action group or otherwise,
oftentimes feel they do not have opportunities to duly apply for positions and
compete because of the number of waivers of competition.
I hope, as the minister has said, that he
will be looking at that and making some recommendations and bringing forth some
real changes in that area.
I would like to move to the area of staff
training and development. I know that in
the staff training and development there has been a shift over the last couple
of years where the staff training and development branch negotiates with
various departments and looks at a business plan or a plan for the staff
training and development.
Does this section of the department have a
fiscal plan or a financial plan as to what types of revenues they may receive
over this coming year from the various departments, and is that an increase or
a decrease from last year?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, first of all, I
understand that about 50 percent of our expenditure there is cost recovered
currently from departments at the present time, and the staff are in the
process of working on a longer term plan for our operations. It is in the process of development by our
staff, and we do not have that to table today or provide to you for that
reason.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, can the minister tell
us, is it anticipated that there will be an increase in revenues recovered from
other departments, i.e., that this branch will have more business from the
other departments in regard to staff training and development?
Mr. Praznik: Well, quite frankly, one of the difficulties
we have is our budgets are very tight within departments, as I am sure the
member can appreciate, so our expectation is not for increased expenditure in
this area. We hope for a steady
continuation of where we are, certainly, not a decrease of any significance,
but likely no increase of any significance.
I would say to the member that one of the‑‑I
make this observation as Minister of Labour more than Civil Service
minister. I know from our own
department's experience, when one has to pay for the cost of the training
program, and I have to add this to it, when you have put the authority to make
that expenditure with your managers, as we have in the Department of Labour in
our test program with the Treasury Board, then you have a much greater focus on
what training courses are being taken.
I know from our own experience in Labour
that I think we have been more effective in our employee training for those two
reasons. If it is simply, you know, the
cost element and the decisions are being made at a higher level‑‑I
am not sure if that entirely is the case‑‑but certainly where you
have given managers control of that budget in their department, then they can
sort out what training is really needed by their staff, with their staff, and
it is made at a very local level. So I
think you can be more effective.
I hope eventually that happens throughout
government. So we do not expect
increases. We expect to hold the line
over the next few years.
Ms. Gray: With the staff training and the courses that
are through the Civil Service branch, can the minister give us a sense that,
with the civil servants who attend the various training programs, whether they
be one day or four days or a week long, is there any sense as to, if those
staff are there on government time or do they go on their own time?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it varies. There are many who are there on government
time during the course of their work, and there are others who from time to
time take training on their own time, depending on the types of courses that
they want.
I know in my own department we have had
requests from staff, particularly administrative staff, to take certain courses
they felt would be very useful to them, to which we agreed. In order to be able to take them, they said
they would take them on their own time, and we would pay the particular cost of
the course, and we worked out those particular arrangements. So it varies.
Ms. Gray: Would the minister concede that by and large
the vast majority of individuals taking the training through the staff training
development branch would be there on government time?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would indicate that
there are probably a large number who do.
I do not know if it is the vast majority.
I do know, as well, that there are, from
time to time, people in the civil service who do additional career development
on their own without any support at all from government, on their own time, and
they do not show up in our statistics.
So I really cannot give you one way or another a firm answer to that
question. It varies.
Ms. Gray: Does the minister have any statistics on the
number of requests for educational leaves that there have been in the civil
service?
Mr. Praznik: Staff advise me that it has been under a
dozen a year for the last quite a few number of years.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, are there any
circumstances where there are leave of absences for educational leave with pay as,
say, part of an affirmative action program or individualized plan?
Mr. Praznik: Just to clarify the types of leaves that we
are referring to, in terms of that, under a dozen or so would be for paid
leave.
Ms. Gray: I want to move to French Language Services. I do not know if that requires that we do
some switching of staff here.
I am wondering, to begin with, if we could
have an idea of the various projects, perhaps the number and the nature of the
projects that have been funded through the Canada‑Manitoba agreement on
French language services?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, as I just sort out
the information for the member, these are the projects that have been approved
for '93‑94.
I am advised that there are over 20
applications that have been made that are in the process of being assessed and
approved at the current time. For last
year, we would have had about 15 projects that were approved.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, can the minister give
us an indication, without necessarily going through all of the projects, are
these projects limited to a certain number of departments or are they
widespread? I am particularly interested
in Education, Family Services and Health.
* (2140)
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I will endeavour to provide
the member with a copy of the information.
We have one here‑‑but we will get it to you‑‑which
is a matter of public record and lists last year's projects.
I can tell the member, those that are
coming forward and are being considered for this year involve bilingualization
of computer programs in certain departments that have to be done,
bilingualization of fire and farm safety materials, for example, in my own
department and Workplace Safety and Health materials where we are somewhat
short, promotion of our French Language Services, the act of offer option that
the Premier (Mr. Filmon) announced where we are promoting the fact that we have
these services available, training sessions and materials for staff in the
Department of Education, for example, some language classes, skills program for
the management of volunteers, again, for people in the French language, some
new initiatives in translations and interpretations, some heritage publications‑‑a
host of applications, as I have said, that have come through, a full variety of
them.
I think there is a need currently, I
recognize, in ensuring that a lot of our government material, for example, and
I speak from my other hat as Labour minister in Workplace Safety and Health and
fire, et cetera‑‑are not available in the French language. We have a fair bit of work to do to bring
that up to speed.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, does the minister
have the amount for the '93‑94 projects, the current amount of dollars
that the provincial government would be putting into these types of
projects? I recognize they have to
budget for it on a full‑dollar basis even though they receive half back,
but could he give us an indication of the dollar amount?
Mr. Praznik: I am advised that it is likely to be in a total
somewhere around approximately a million dollars.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I do not know if the
minister can do this more quickly than I can, but one million dollars‑‑what
percentage of that is out of the total provincial budget?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chair, since history was my
favourite subject and not mathematics, I can tell the member it is $1 million
out of $5.2 billion and I will leave the math up to her.
Ms. Gray: Can the minister tell us, is that an increase
or a decrease from the budget from last year?
Mr. Praznik: Depending on the number of projects that are
ultimately approved, it is likely to be just a slight decrease from last year.
Ms. Gray: Does the minister have any more details on
the process of active offer, again, particularly in‑‑let us take
the Department of Health as an example.
What kinds of projects are there that would be there to ensure that the
policy of active offer is in fact implemented?
Mr. Praznik: I am pleased to indicate that 20 designated
institutions, obviously 20 that service Francophone communities in Manitoba,
are currently working on the implementation of their plans to ensure that
services are provided as best as possible and practical to their communities
and their clientele.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, when the minister
indicates institutions, is he referring to hospitals and personal care homes?
Mr. Praznik: Yes, hospitals. I believe personal care homes, as indicated
in the Gauthier report.
Ms. Gray: Can the minister tell us, within the Department
of Health or even using his department as an example, the Department of Labour,
what specific objectives are being looked at or what specific policies are put
in place to ensure that active offer is present? Let us use the Department of Labour as an
example.
Mr. Praznik: We have identified in our department staff
who have a capacity in both of our official languages and are able to provide
services. I know in the Fire
Commissioner's office, for example, we have made sure we let it be known to those
communities and departments that would feel more at ease in dealing with our
branch in French that we have that capacity.
We are also looking at this year if we are
able to have some influence on the French Language Services minister to move
toward the bilingualization of a lot of our material because that is an area we
feel we are definitely weak in. That is
going to take on a priority. We have a
fair number of staff currently who are able to provide service in two languages
where we have a need, but it is in the materials area that we are short. That is one of the reasons those applications
are currently there for funding this year.
Ms. Gray: I suppose one of the obvious areas for French
language services at least within the city of Winnipeg would be the St.
Boniface area, not that people who are wishing service and who are Francophone
do not reside in other areas of the city, whether it be St. Norbert or St.
James.
I would ask the minister, in the area of
St. Boniface in particular, have there been any specific projects that have
been undertaken by the department or through the Canada‑Manitoba
Agreement that would extend French language services in the St. Boniface
community?
Mr. Praznik: Yes, obviously, probably the largest
institution in that particular community is the St. Boniface General Hospital,
which is currently implementing its plan to ensure that they have services
available for that community.
As well, each government department that
is located in that community provides services to those residents as currently
part of developing the plans that they are working through. Specifically, St.
Boniface Hospital, because it is located there; generally, the departments of
government that service that community.
Ms. Gray: That is all the questions I have under the
area of French Language Services. Just
suffice it say that certainly I think it is a very important service that the
government provides. The fact that there
have been a number of staff who have been dedicated to the extension and
expansion of French language services throughout the province, I think, is
progress and very important.
I know we probably have a long way to go
in that area, but I think it is very important that at least that staff have
been dedicated to look at this, and so we look forward to more projects being
approved in future years, and the government looking at more creative ways to
ensure that those French language services are available to citizens of
Manitoba.
* (2150)
I had a question, moving back into speech
and hearing clinicians. This was a
question that came up actually in the discussion of the Estimates for
Education, but it was related to the speech and hearing clinicians who had
received letters, I believe, from their personnel department or human resources
department in regard to the employment issue of whether, in fact, if once they
were let go from their positions with the government, should they be rehired by
a school division, they would be, and I am going by memory, eligible for
severance pay, but were not eligible for enhanced severance pay. I think that is the issue.
I was not able to get quite a clear answer
in the Department of Education, and I thought it was probably best to bring
that question here to the Civil Service. So I am wondering if the minister could tell
us what the reason is, why they would be eligible for the severance pay, but
not the enhanced severance pay, and why a school division employer, if it was
their future employer, would be considered different than if they were hired in
another employment situation.
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, under the collective
agreement, our employees are entitled to a severance package under that
particular agreement. When their
positions ended with the civil service, they were offered that severance
package as defined by the collective agreement.
The enhanced severance package was
designed for those people who were leaving the service of government or
government‑funded agencies primarily.
Since they were going to work‑‑these individuals were picked
up by other school divisions, where we in fact were providing funding for those
positions, then the enhanced severance package was not made available to
them. So that is why that occurred.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, so government‑funded
agencies I suppose would be other agencies, as well, such as Child and Family
Services or a hospital or an institution.
Would that be correct?
Mr. Praznik: No, the loss or not providing enhanced
severance was where we funded specifically a position for the clinician, which
we did with school divisions. If they
happened to leave the service of government and three months later retire, then
six months later or a month later pick up a job in another government‑funded
agency and we had not specifically designated or targeted employment for them
in that area, then they would have been entitled to the enhanced severance
package.
It is just that the Ministry of Education
provided funding to school divisions for those clinician positions, and if
these clinicians took jobs in those positions, were offered and accepted them,
because they were specifically funded by the provincial government, we did not
provide the enhanced severance package to them.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I thank the minister
for that answer. A number of the
clinicians had asked, and so I had wanted to get on the record what exactly the
reason was.
Going back to some of the comments and
some of the questions by the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) on affirmative
action, I am wondering in the area of affirmative action, I know that now in
competitions, they talk about affirmative action will be considered. I forget the terminology that is used.
I am wondering if the policy on
affirmative action has changed at all over the last couple of years or been
tightened up or if there has been any changes in the policy of affirmative
action. Is the plan still that there
will be statistics kept on, if we can use the word "quotas," in the
affirmative action program, and I ask that only because it can be and has been
a controversial issue sometimes.
Mr. Praznik: No, the policy has not changed, but the Civil
Service Commission has issued guidelines for affirmative action in the
recruitment and selection process. This
was to clarify a number of issues and ensure that everyone was operating from
the same song sheet, so to speak.
I note the member's comments regarding how
sometimes these can be difficult situations, and I know from one's own
experience with constituents, et cetera, that affirmative action is not
something that necessarily has wide appeal from those who feel that they have
been eliminated from a competition because they are not in one of the
categories. One has to appreciate that
concern, but the policy certainly has not changed. The guidelines have been issued to
departments to provide that common playing field for implementation so that
people know in fact what the rules are and they have been clarified. We want to ensure that all personnel managers
are dealing with the same information.
Ms. Gray: For the minister, is there any discussion or
plans to rethink or look at the Affirmative Action Program in terms of how we
keep statistics and the fact that we do look at percentages and at a quota
system, shall we say? Are there any
thoughts on that, or are there any other jurisdictions in
Mr. Praznik: First of all, the nomenclature that we
surround or put to this issue obviously has some difficulty with. We do not, in fact, have quotas as the member
uses the term. I do not say that to be
critical. We have long‑term
targets, but there is a certain emotive effect, I think, when you use the word
"quotas."
We have recognized, as I indicated to the
member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), that in a period when you are downsizing the
public service, you do not have the opportunities and new positions coming up
for competition to bring in a large number of new people. So our emphasis has changed somewhat within
the Civil Service Commission to providing more training and employment
opportunities for those people in the target groups who are already in the
civil service because that is an area where we have people to work with.
I know the aboriginal committee that has
been formed, a group that has been formed to provide a network throughout the
civil service. It has published a directory for use of its members across the
civil service. I have met with them, and
we are exploring ways of providing more opportunities in management, more
opportunities to learn how different parts of the civil service work. We are hoping that when we have more
vacancies come forward at some point, by that time we will have more people in
our target areas in managerial positions as role models and to provide advice
and experience.
As I indicated, these are not easy times
in terms of expanding affirmative action because we do not have the new entry
positions, we do not have the vacancies.
We are trying to do what we can given the circumstances that we are
currently in.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, picking up on that
comment of the minister, are there any programs in particular for individuals
within the civil service, particularly at the entry level of the civil service,
programs whereby those individuals may wish to move up in the system and
receive promotions but where there are not promotional opportunities due to
their lack of skills or, in particular, educational background? Are there any specific programs where
individuals have an opportunity to have a plan developed with their supervisor
and they can actually move up in the system?
* (2200)
Mr. Praznik: Specifically, our Career Development Program
has provided us with a bank of unfunded staff years so that departments wishing
to assist an affirmative action candidate in developing skills and other
opportunities can work out arrangements.
We have the staff here if they can provide the funding, and we will
provide the training as well to give people those opportunities where we can
work out arrangements to develop their skills and training and expertise to be
able to compete for and win other positions in the civil service that are more
mobile to their careers and advancement in their careers. We have used that program. It seems to be relatively successful in
giving people opportunities. But, like
in all things, of course, it is dependent upon working with a lot of people to
make that come about.
Ms. Gray: Madam Acting Deputy Chairperson, how many
unfunded staff years would there be available for this program?
Mr. Praznik: We currently have eight unfunded staff years
in the bank.
Ms. Gray: And can the minister tell us how many of
those are currently being utilized in any particular type of program?
Mr. Praznik: Yes, we have three that are currently being
used, so we have five vacant staff years in the bank which we have available to
work with.
Ms. Gray: Could the minister give us a bit of detail on
those three positions and the nature of the projects?
Mr. Praznik: Yes, the information that is available to me
at this particular time indicates that one of those positions is working as a
program policy analyst trainee in the Women's Directorate. Another is an individual who is from the visible
minority category who is working in the Citizenship section of the department
of multiculturalism and citizenship, in an antiracism co‑ordinator type
position, working in that particular field.
Ms. Gray: Is this type of program well advertised within
the civil service so that staff and supervisors are aware of the program and
how they might go about having someone apply for projects such as this?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chair, on a year‑to‑year
basis we have used the program somewhat differently, I am advised. From time to time we have used it trictly
internally to government to give people inside government opportunities to do
other things and develop their skills in government. There have been occasions where we have used
it externally to bring people in from outside of the system to give them
experience in working in governments. We have used it in both ways, and we have
advertised it accordingly depending on the plans and the needs and the
information that has flowed to the staff who operate the program.
Ms. Gray: Still on the line of Affirmative Action, does
the minister happen to have the numbers of the‑‑and I can
appreciate that with deputy ministers they may be political appointments or
they may not be‑‑but the breakdown of the affirmative action target
groups and the number in relation to the number of deputy ministers?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chair, in terms of deputy
ministers one has to be careful because, of course, I am not sure who has made
a declaration and who has not, but I am advised that two of our deputy
ministers have made declarations as being part of visible minority communities,
and we have one deputy minister who is a woman.
We had two who were women. My
former Deputy Minister of Labour, who is here tonight to cheer us on, has since
left her deputy minister position to take up a promotion as the president of
the Economic Innovation and Technology Council and has obviously used her
experience in that portfolio well to catch the attention of the Premier and be
appointed to what is an obvious promotion to do some very important work in the
province. So the deputy ministership in
this case was good training ground for a very fine individual.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I thought when the
minister started his remarks, he said one has to be careful, and I thought you
were going to say we never know from one minute to the next who the deputy
ministers are because then they change.
Just one final question for the
minister. I am wondering if he could
indicate to us as Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission, as one
of his responsibilities, over the next year what would he like to accomplish in
terms of three or four reforms or goals within his department. If he could perhaps give us an indication of
what he would like to see accomplished over the next year, everything willing,
I would leave the Estimates with that question for the minister.
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chair, that is a very intriguing
question in the Estimates process. I
think a couple of things. One is, we have worked very, very hard as a
department. Our staff have put out just
above and beyond the call of duty in ensuring that in the Workforce Adjustment
process we have managed to find opportunities for those people whose positions
have been affected by budget reductions.
We have no idea what next year's budget
holds for us, but I certainly consider, as a priority, maintaining that type of
service so that ultimately at the end of the day, when we are going through
whatever kind of reduction process in government that all governments are going
through at this time, we are able to ensure that as many people who still want
to be employed by government are at the end of the day, even if it is in other
positions.
I am particularly proud of that effort,
because one asks the question always, whenever you go through a downsizing and
people's lives are affected, and I know my colleagues the Premier (Mr. Filmon)
and other members of cabinet always have that concern. When you are reducing government, you are
affecting individuals. If you are
eliminating those positions, you are depriving them of their livelihood
potentially.
When you are able, through such good work
as we have on the part of our staff, to know that the vast majority of those
people still have a job at the end of the day, and you have accommodated
several hundred people who have wanted to leave government to retire or do
other things, and you have accommodated them with the VSIP program, when you go
home at night, at least you are able to look yourself in the mirror and say,
yes, we have had to make some tough decisions.
Yes, we have had to eliminate positions, but we know that we have really
truly minimized the effect on many, many people. So I am proud of that, and I always want to
ensure our civil service is able to maintain that kind of service.
* (2210)
A longer haul, a more positive issue I
think though is, as Civil Service minister, I want to ensure that we provide
within government plenty of opportunities, as many as we possibly can, to
develop amongst our employees opportunities to learn more about the operations
of government in service delivery. I
think this is an area where we have a lot more work to do.
I have managed with my other hat as
Minister of Labour with my deputies, both Roberta Ellis‑Grunfeld and now
Tom Farrell, to give people in our department opportunities for career
advancement, opportunities to have management experience, but I think more
importantly to develop, and I know some may have trouble with this word, a
corporate view of government in the sense that one has to look at government
from the whole perspective, not just the perspective of a narrow part of one's
department.
I know that there has traditionally been a
tendency in bureaucracies over the last number of decades, as people stay in
one department of government, one branch of government, particularly if they
are manager of that branch, to view that branch as their terrain in which they
have a responsibility to protect it, to look after it, to fight on its behalf,
without fully appreciating the larger view of what government or their
department has to accomplish. What are
the larger goals? Where are we trying to
move and how are we going to get there?
What is my part and my branch's part in achieving that goal?
So one area that we have discussed
somewhat, and we want to get more into next year, and we certainly want to
encourage departments to pursue is the ability to give people, particularly our
junior managers, people moving in the system, the opportunity to see other
parts of government operation to gain that larger perspective and to have that
ability, when they do see that, to ask the questions about why are we doing
things, have that larger objective.
So that is an area we certainly want to work
towards. I say this to the member from
Crescentwood (Ms. Gray) because I know her very sincere interest in seeing more
opportunities for women in government.
But if I would offer one bit of advice, and I have done this to Manitoba
Women in Government, I have said this to Manitoba Women in Government, that to
get more information, to be exposed to the basis on which government and policy
decisions are made, to be able to learn the facts, in essence, and see the kind
of numbers that we have to deal with at a cabinet level, to be able to adopt or
adapt to changing circumstances, to be innovative in program delivery becomes a
great asset, I believe, in promotion in government.
Because we as ministers, our deputies are
continually looking for people in management roles to come into management
roles, who can be innovative, who can take on new challenges, who are prepared
to rethink the way we do things, find new ways of doing them and deliver,
ultimately, better service to the people of Manitoba, people who are not caught
in the old ways of doing things, are not reluctant about viewing new ways of
doing things and new challenges.
So that is a particular objective that we
want to be encouraging and working towards, and I think that builds a stronger
and better public service for the people of Manitoba. I know my colleagues in cabinet wish to
pursue that in their particular departments and build that sense of very
innovative leadership within our staff.
That is a goal that I think serves the
people of
So that is a large goal. I think it ties very much in to the kind of
goals I know the member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray) shares of more
opportunities for women, for visible minorities, for others, because in that kind
of dynamic, there are always opportunities for those who wish to be innovative,
for those who wish to work hard, for those who wish to work towards the larger
objectives of the body of government which we now have to take on.
So it opens things up somewhat, I think,
and that is exciting. I look forward to
more work being done in that area over the next year. (interjection)
Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if the Minister of
Health (Mr. Orchard) would just wait a couple of minutes, he will have his
opportunity. I basically just want to
thank the minister for his comments and thank the staff, as well, for their
participation. Thank you.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 1. Civil Service Commission (a) Executive
Office (1) Salaries $233,700.
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey
(Minister of Education and Training): It is
very important that we have an opportunity to talk a little bit about some
parts of the Department of Labour and Civil Service.
An Honourable Member: Is this going to be 60 hours worth of
questions to make up for 60 hours worth of answering?
Mrs. Vodrey: Seventy.
I am particularly interested in the French Language Services Secretariat
which has moved now into the Department of Labour, under the direction of the
Minister responsible for the Civil Service.
I wonder if the minister could begin by
telling us a little bit about his plans with that move now being put within his
responsibility, certainly opens up some, what I would believe to be
opportunities, and as a minister who works very closely with the French
Language Services in this province, I would be interested to have the minister
provide us with a little information and his view on that move.
Mr. Praznik: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I know we are
all so busy as ministers there are not a lot of opportunities for us to speak, and
this certainly provides an opportunity for us to exchange some views on some of
these issues. I am very excited by that
opportunity.
I can say to the Minister of Education and
Training (Mrs. Vodrey), firstly, I was very excited by the opportunity to serve
the people of Manitoba in that capacity as the Ministre, Minister responsible
for French Language Services. It is a
very challenging area as we move towards the implementation, as the minister is
very well aware, of governance for the Section 23 parents of
We are also, I think, excited by the
Premier's commitment to the active offer option for the provision of French
language services throughout the
We are able to do it in a spirit that
Manitobans have always been able to demonstrate, when left to settle their
issues on their own between communities, one I think generally of good
will. We are able to provide in a very
meaningful way to the Francophone community of this province and will be
providing to them a host of government services that were never before
available to that community.
So it is a very, very exciting time to be
in this area of responsibility because we are fulfilling not only a
constitutional obligation, but I think for those of us who have some sense of
the history of this province, and members may want me to review a little of
that history‑‑I see some members nod‑‑where we are in
some ways righting some historic wrongs.
In the history of this province one should
not forget that French‑speaking Manitobans were clearly a majority of the
population, at least half the population at the time that
So it is exciting, despite a history that
did not allow for many of those obligations to be met. We here in a Progressive Conservative
government led by Premier Gary Filmon are righting many of those wrongs in a
positive way in which I think the vast majority of Manitobans concur and indeed
are very proud of. So I am very excited
at this time.
Mrs. Vodrey: I am also interested, as I see described in
the Supplementary Estimates, that part of the minister's role is liaison and a
contact with the Franco‑Manitoban community. Certainly as Minister of
Education and Training, that regular contact with the Franco‑Manitoban
community has been very important.
Certainly the major initiative that we have underway now moving into a
system of francophone governance, which is an historical event in the
* (2220)
Our discussions have focused not only on
some of the technical issues which, creating that, would lead us to, but it
also has allowed us to focus on, again, the wider issues of hopes and dreams of
those Franco‑Manitobans for their educational system on behalf of themselves
and their children.
What I am interested in from this minister
is perhaps how he would see with the community itself his ongoing contact and
liaison. He might like to speak a little
bit about some of the contacts that have already occurred. Some of the messages maybe he has received
from the community about how they think and what they hope may be achieved.
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, I know there are some specific
bits of information that I would like to provide in that way to the minister,
which currently are in my office, and I would ask if the committee may grant me
a brief recess of the committee perhaps or leave to obtain that information,
and I understand our House leader has some comments on that particular point as
well.
House
Business
Hon. Clayton Manness
(Government House Leader): Mr. Chairperson, as
has happened many times in the past in committees, for one reason or another,
ministers cannot always be at the table until the completion of their
Estimates. I understand that the minister
has some pressing business, and I am wondering whether or not there would be a
will of the committee, because this is very unprecedented, to start another
committee realizing that we cannot complete the Civil Service Commission at
this time, but we will come back to it tomorrow‑‑whether or not
there is a willingness to entertain another department at this point in
time? I am thinking of Industry, Trade
and Tourism.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: As the honourable House leader is aware,
under Rule 64(1), "The Rules shall be observed in a Committee of the Whole
House insofar as they are applicable, except the Rules as to of seconding of
motions and limiting of number of times of speaking."
Also within the rules, under 65(9)(d), the
committee cannot refer to another committee, but seeing as we are dealing under
64(1) which says we are dealing under the rules of the House at this time, I
would ask if there is unanimous consent at this time to revert to the Estimates
of the Department of Industry and Trade.
Is there unanimous consent?
Mr. Steve Ashton
(Opposition House Leader): Mr. Deputy
Chairperson, if we can track down our critic, we certainly have no
problems. I would be interested in
hearing the comments of the Liberal Party at this point in time. If we are operating under the rules of the
House, we cannot make reference to the absence of any members.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Is there unanimous consent at this time?
Mr. Praznik: Yes.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Yes?
Mr. Ashton: On the condition we can track our critic
down, I can make no guarantees on that.
That is the only potential problem we might have.
I would just like to put on the record,
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that as a Civil Service critic, I completed my remarks
about two hours ago, and we were prepared to pass this committee and proceed to
I, T and T tonight. If there are any
difficulties in getting into I, T and T, either due to rules or availability of
ministers, et cetera, I want it known on the record that we were prepared to
deal with I, T and T tonight.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: So the Civil Service Commission then will be
going into recess, and we will be going into the Estimates of the Department of
I, T and T in five minutes, with the unanimous consent of this committee under
Rule 64(1). Agreed?
Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I just want to make it
perfectly clear. I asked for leave of
the House today to begin other departments after ten o'clock, but that was on
the expressed belief that we would be completing a department. We are not completing a department, and so
this is why it is unprecedented at this time.
If there is unanimous consent, naturally we would move on.
Mr. Ashton: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I cannot give you unanimous
consent other than with the qualification that we can track our critic
down. I cannot guarantee that.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Is that agreeable to the committee then, we
will try to track down? We will attempt
to track down the opposition‑‑
Mr. Ashton: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am just
asking. I am willing to give leave if we
can get our critic. If we cannot get our
critic in place‑‑
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. At this time, all we can do is advise the
honourable critic that we are sitting in the Department of I, T and T, and if
he chooses not to come to those Estimates, that will be his answer.
Mr. Ashton: Mr. Chairperson, regretfully I will have to‑‑
Mr. Praznik: Make a condition.
Mr. Ashton: I have to give a condition because I do not
know . . . .
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: On the condition if we can get the member in.
Mr. Praznik: And recess for 10 minutes.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: And recess for five minutes to find the
member.
Mr. Praznik: Make it 10, make it 10.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Ten minutes.
Recess for 10 minutes.
The
committee recessed at 10:27 p.m.
After
Recess
The
committee resumed at 10:32 p.m.
INDUSTRY,
TRADE AND TOURISM
Mr. Deputy Chairperson
(Marcel Laurendeau): Order, please. As previously agreed, the Committee of Supply
will come to order. The Department of Labour has been recessed.
We are now dealing with the Department of
I, T and T. Today, in this section of
the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, we will be considering the
Estimates of the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism.
Does the honourable minister have an
opening statement?
Mr. Steve Ashton
(Thompson): Before we do proceed, Mr. Deputy Chairperson,
I just want to indicate that our critic is, hopefully, on his way in currently. In fairness to our critic and others, we are
quite prepared to start on the condition that we will adjourn no later than
midnight. (interjection)
That is fine, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. I think we have a general understanding. We make the main point in reference to the
rather unusual procedural aspects here.
We want to make sure that this matter is brought back at a future
committee here, and we can deal with the exact . . . .
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: At the hour of 12 midnight, we will check
with the committee to see what the will of the committee is at that time. The honourable minister to give us his
opening statement.
Hon. Eric Stefanson
(Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): I
am pleased to have this opportunity to present the 1993‑94 fiscal year
spending Estimates for the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism to the
Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.
The next fiscal year promises great
opportunities and challenges for this government and this province as we continue
to move along the path to prosperity that we embarked upon some five years
ago. The challenge we face is clear and
well known. We must continue our drive to economic recovery, and, as we do so,
we must heed the tremendous changes occurring in the global economy and ensure
our development is in tune with those changes.
As a government, we believe our primary
responsibility is to create a stable and positive fiscal environment in which
all Manitobans can prosper. We believe
the greatest contribution we can make in this area is in a balanced budget, and
we hope to achieve that by fiscal year 1996‑97.
As our recent budget stated, our
government has begun a four‑year plan to eliminate the provincial deficit
through controlling government spending, modest increases in revenue, and
fiscal transfer from the lottery revenue.
We have now held the line on major taxes in our past six budgets, and we
continue to seek ways to decrease the tax burden, particularly on smaller
businesses and firms in certain strategic sectors.
In terms of reducing government spending,
we continue to seek new and creative ways to deliver services effectively and
at a lower cost. We have eliminated some
1,700 public service positions, mostly through early retirement and attrition. We have implemented a wage freeze. We introduced a reduced summer work week for
everyone from the Premier (Mr. Filmon) on down, which will save 3.8 percent on
salaries this year, and we have called upon other areas of the public sector to
share this burden, to implement similar cost‑saving measures and to
streamline their operations.
Within this context of debt reduction and
fiscal restraint, the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism has a mandate
to promote economic development. While
there are clear limitations on what we as a government can do by ourselves, we
are, however, optimistic about our ability to work together for real and
lasting change.
Currently, there are many positive signals
for
On the other hand, ongoing consumer and
public debt and modest growth nationally will tend to slow our recovery. We are predicting steady but slow growth in
fiscal 1993‑94.
The recent recession has provided us an
opportunity and incentive to reshape our future and to change radically our
thinking and to focus on new economic objectives. Past approaches to economic development in
this country and this province have worn thin.
In the new global economy of the '90s, we need new ideas and we need new
approaches.
Our government's new direction was made
public earlier this month by Premier Gary Filmon in a major policy document
entitled Framework for Economic Growth, Policy Directions for Manitoba, prepared
by the Economic Development Board. This
policy paper discusses the new economic realities we face as a province, and
the strategies we must follow to succeed.
(Mr. Bob Rose, Acting Deputy Chairperson,
in the Chair)
In response to changes in the global
economy, our government is restructured as well. In 1991, the Economic Development Board was
set up to serve as a focal point of the government's efforts aimed at
encouraging entrepreneurship, economic growth and employment. Its mandate includes, in part, the following:
developing a strong partnership among government, business, industry, labour
and the research community; consolidating economic initiatives across
government departments; and overseeing the development and implementation of
our key economic initiative.
The most recent and significant
contribution of the Economic Development Board is the Framework for Economic
Growth policy paper to which I just referred.
This document builds on the many consultations we have had with the
province's economic stakeholders and specific policies implemented since
1988. It also consolidates our key
reform initiatives in fiscal policy, Labour, Health, and Education and, in the
future, will affect virtually every government policy and program.
The framework consists of 10 distinct
strategies that embrace several departments, with Industry, Trade and Tourism
playing a central role. These strategy
areas are:
1)
Fiscal management that continues a commitment to low taxes and working towards
a balanced budget.
2)
Skills training designed to prepare the
3)
Innovation: to turn good ideas into
marketable products.
4)
Export diversification: to expand the
range of products and services we sell abroad, as well as the markets we export
to.
5)
Business opportunities network, based on a central registry of company
capabilities across the province.
6)
Capital market formation: To improve
access to existing and new sources of capital for growing
7)
Employee‑owned businesses: to
encourage home‑based businesses, co‑operatives and other forms of
employee ownership.
8)
Rural economic development: to encourage
community‑based economic strategies that focus on emerging economic
sectors and adding value to resource‑sector products.
9)
Infrastructure investment: to broaden
our approach to include research and development, education and social
infrastructure, as well as the traditional areas of transportation and
telecommunication.
10)
Sectoral strategies: to encourage
sectors with emerging global opportunities, such as health care, aerospace,
information and telecommunications, environmental industries, agrifood and
tourism, while at the same time to build on our traditional strengths.
Our main task as a government in the
coming months will be to build commitment to these new directions from all
Manitobans, including representatives from government, the private sector,
research and development and educational institutions.
To assist my department prepare for its
role, I recently announced a more innovative delayered structure for the
Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism in which program priorities can be
more easily linked to and serve our overall economic thrust.
* (2240)
To do this, we have reorganized the
department into three functional areas:
Strategic Initiatives, Business Services and Management Services.
The Strategic Initiatives division
includes the six key sectors of our economy, which I spoke of a moment ago. Each sector has a strong competitive cluster
of companies here in
Moreover, most are high technology fields
where innovation is key, and with innovation comes the potential for spin‑off
benefits from other industries.
In the Tourism sector, the reorganized
tourism initiative has focused on closer industry consultation in the areas of
Tourism Marketing, Tourism Services and product development.
A six‑point marketing strategy has
been implemented this year to capitalize on
A new television and print advertising
campaign focusing on
The marketing programs also target the
nearby
(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)
Most recently the department participated‑‑
Point of
Order
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux
(Second Opposition House Leader): Mr.
Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order, and I would ask for some clarification
through the Chair in terms of some of the rules of the Chamber.
Earlier this evening, I had opportunity to
ask the Clerk whether or not another department can follow a department if in
fact the department has not been passed.
It was indicated to me at the time from the Clerk that if in fact there
is no unanimous leave from the Chamber, inside the Chamber, not from the
committee, in fact you could not go into another department. Now I understand that there was unanimous
consent from within this committee after ten o'clock. If in fact that is and that was the case, I
was still led to believe from the Clerk of this House that in fact that would
not be in order; that the committee cannot in its powers decide anything and
everything it wants to do; that you have to follow the rules of the Chamber and
the Clerk was, at least I had thought, fairly clear.
So I would ask the Chair, what are the
rules of the Chamber? Is the minister able to present his Estimates at this
point, given that there was no consent, no unanimous leave? I think it is very important, Mr. Deputy
Chairperson, that we abide by the rules.
We will find that, in the past, the minister, the government House
leader, had approached for unanimous consent of the Chamber to be able to do
this previously. Now, I think that it is
very dangerous in terms of precedent setting, and at the very least, I have to
voice that I oppose what in fact the committee has done, because I do believe
it is in violation of the rule. Again,
this is something which the Clerk had indicated to me. So I think it is important before we go on
that we clarify this particular matter.
Hon. Clayton Manness
(Government House Leader): On the same point of
order, what happened tonight is unprecedented in the sense that a set of
circumstances arose after ten o'clock that the rules did not anticipate, and so
a decision had to be made. You, Mr. Deputy Chair, called out to the members
around this table, all the members, certainly just not members of one party, to
seek their advice. A motion was moved,
unanimously supported by those in attendance.
We all know that the rule book cannot contemplate every situation. If the House leader of the Liberal Party is
troubled by that fact, and I can understand maybe why he is, then I think it is
fair that this is brought before the Rules Committee of the House.
We have a standing committee that deals
with rules, and it tries to deal with them in a fair fashion when these
unprecedented sets of circumstances come about.
Ultimately, we, as legislators, make decisions on how to follow the next
course. The member is right. I asked the
question of the House today whether or not we could move into a next department
on completion. That is what the rules
talk to. The Civil Service Commission
was not completed, so the rules never anticipated that.
So, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I say to you
that I understand the point of order. I
do not accept it, but that the members of the House within their Rules
Committee ultimately will have to deal with that, with this question.
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): I just want to make a brief comment on
this. The rule that has been cited by
the member for
I do not know all the parliamentary
niceties about this rule, et cetera‑‑
An Honourable Member: You do not care.
Mr. Doer: Well, I do care. I do know that we have a number of rules we
are working within, and one of them is the 240 hours, and one of them is that
this committee is trying to abide by those kinds of directions. I also know there are some sort of rules
outside of this building, and those are the priorities of Manitobans. With a finite period of time, I thought it
was quite frankly ridiculous for our party to participate in discussions on a
department that was already finished when we have a lot of unfinished business
dealing with the economy and jobs, and we have staff in this building. Surely to God, rules are there to facilitate
the rights of the minority but also the rights of Manitobans in the jobs that
we are elected to do.
So if the Minister of Finance (Mr.
Manness) is suggesting that this is forwarded to the Rules Committee, so be
it. But to sit here from 10:15 on when
we are finished the department and not be able to deal with another department,
which is important to every one of our constituents‑‑surely those
are the people that these rules should be serving. To me, the rules should serve the people that
elect us, and that is dealing with the economy and jobs and not wasting time
after a department is complete.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. I am going to rule on the first one here.
On the honourable member's point of order,
I am going to take it under advisement and deal with the issue and come back to
the committee when I get my ruling together and find all the information. I would like to let the honourable member know
that I have already ruled that we will deal with I, T and T, and I have given
the reasons why. At this time, we will
carry on with I, T and T.
The honourable member for
Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, no‑‑on a point of order, Mr.
Deputy Chairperson. In listening to the
response‑‑and I think it is imperative that the Deputy Chairperson
does look at this matter, and I hear that he will be looking at it and time is
very important, no doubt‑‑the Minister of Finance in his
explanation tries to justify it by saying, yes, it is in violation of the rule,
but at times we need to violate rules.
Nothing prevents this committee from rising at ten o'clock. In fact, that is what it allows for inside
the committee, and it is fully within the rules to rise. I agree with the Leader of the New Democratic
Party that it is very important debate, and if we adjourn, we could in fact be
back into session and dealing with this particular‑‑
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable member for
Point of
Order
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable government House leader, on
another point of order.
Mr. Manness: Yes, because the member said that I said that
we were in violation of the rules. That
is a total falsehood. I never said
that. I never came close to saying
that. I indicated we were in
unprecedented, uncharted waters, and we had to move accordingly. So I say to the member, Mr. Deputy
Chairperson, we were not in violation of the rules.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable minister did not have a point
of order. It was a dispute over the
facts.
* * *
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable Minister of Industry, Trade
and Tourism, to continue.
Mr. Stefanson: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, carrying
on with some comments on Tourism and the tourism initiative. Most recently the department participated in
the Canada Night Promotion of the Wally Byam Airstream Trailer Rally in
The Business Services division includes
programs for industrial and business development for those sectors not
identified as strategic initiatives. It
includes specific support programs such as export development training, services
to small business and co‑operative development.
* (2250)
Finally, the Management Services division
comprises the department's internal support services. This includes the Manitoba Bureau of
Statistics, Research and Economic Services and Financial and Administrative
Services. This major structural change
has eliminated a layer of management at the assistant deputy minister level,
put new emphasis on strategic sector and helped instill a service‑oriented,
project‑based philosophy across the department.
At the same time, we appointed Paul Goyan
as the new Deputy Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism. Mr. Goyan, recently an assistant deputy
minister with Manitoba Education and Training, has an extensive background in
skills development and training program delivery. We look forward to his vital contribution.
Despite the serious limitations as to what
the government can do under present physical circumstances, we believe the new
structure and team we have in place will maximize our program efforts.
Recognizing the critical role of innovation
in the new global economy, last September we set up the Economic Innovation and
Technology Council. Its current
president is Roberta Ellis‑Grunfeld, and the chair is Mr. Russ Hood.
(Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy
Chairperson, in the Chair)
The role of the EITC is to provide a forum
for consultation and dialogue between business, labour, the research community
and government. It held a major forum of
economic stakeholders in October, 1992, and has submitted a brief to the
University Education Review Commission.
EITC also manages the $10 million Economic Innovation and Technology
Fund aimed at stimulating research and development activity in the
Because of the increasing importance of
exports to our economy we have devoted much time and resources to trade issues,
particularly the North American Free Trade Agreement and interprovincial trade
within our own country. Last December
our government tabled a document in the Legislature clearly outlining our
position on NAFTA. You will recall we
assessed the final text of the agreement to see how it met the six conditions
we had set out in June of 1991. We
determined that three of the six conditions necessary for us to support NAFTA
had not been met to our satisfaction.
We continue to work with the federal
government to address the areas that concern us.
In terms of interprovincial or internal
trade, our government is actively pursuing discussions with other provincial
governments with the aim of reducing or eliminating internal trade barriers.
I am currently provincial co‑chair
of the Committee of Ministers of Internal Trade. This committee agreed in March of this year
to launch negotiations towards a comprehensive agreement on internal trade by
June 30, 1994. The committee recently
met in
I would like to now turn to several
specific economic development incentive programs which we feel are successfully
advancing the department's objectives.
For example, in recognition of the vital role of smaller entrepreneurs
in our province, the Business Start program guarantees loans for small
businesses with a special interest in women and rural Manitobans.
The Manitoba Industrial Opportunities
Program, or MIOP, provides financial incentives to companies seeking to locate
or expand in
The Manitoba Industrial Recruitment Initiative,
MIRI, also provides assistance to new business investment and development
generally through conditional forgivable loans.
Job creation again is a key objective.
In 1992‑93, MIRI approved two loans of $300,000 each with an
expectation of some 200 total jobs being created or retained in
Other important initiatives my department
has been involved in include the Crocus Investment Fund, which reflects our
commitment to employee‑owned enterprises.
This fund was designed and is managed by the Manitoba Federation of
Labour, and we have contributed a $2‑million start‑up investment
from the government of Manitoba Lotteries Fund.
The Crocus Investment Fund is designed to promote and encourage the
retention of business capital and employment within
The recent signing of the Russia‑Manitoba
agreement on the
These, then, are some examples of the
initiatives for economic development that we believe are preparing
Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, this
concludes my opening remarks.
The Acting Deputy
Chairperson (Mr. Reimer): I thank the minister
for those remarks.
Does the member for Flin Flon, the
official opposition have any opening statements?
Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I want to
thank the minister for those opening remarks.
We are quite accustomed to rather glowing
opening remarks about what the government has done and, perhaps more than usual
this year, what the government intends to do.
Unfortunately, many of the minister's comments relate to, I guess, the
government's good intentions. You could
talk about the Arctic Bridge agreement, which of course, no one expected to
bear fruit immediately, but the fact of the matter is that it looks good in a
press release and it sounds good, but it is cold comfort to the 55,000 or
56,000 Manitobans who remain unemployed and to the increasing numbers who have
been unemployed as a result of, at least in part, government policy since 1988
and perhaps more significantly since 1990.
One of the things that the minister did
not spend any time on in his opening remarks was the, I think, very
discouraging and very worrisome trend in the
(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister did
not talk about, I guess, the impact of the Free Trade Agreement and the
potential impact of NAFTA on those manufacturing jobs. It is interesting, some months ago, December,
we did an analysis of the substantial change in manufacturing jobs in the
province. We compared December of 1988
with December of 1992, and in every category of manufacturing we have lost
jobs. In some areas we have lost 70
percent of our jobs, for example in flour, cereal and feed. In dairy products we have lost 40 percent,
clothing 36.8 percent, food 35.2 percent, nondurable goods 29.9 percent,
combined publishing and printing 25 percent loss, durable goods a 20 percent
loss, machinery a 17 percent loss, and the list goes on.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, those figures
speak of serious trouble in the manufacturing sector, and it is the wealth
producing sector. We know of the trials
and tribulations in the primary sector, a sector that is very dependent on
international markets and international prices.
But this is a worrisome trend.
Clearly in the mining industry we have lost jobs since 1988. Agriculture has suffered with the market
along with other entrepreneurial groups and sectors of the economy that rely on
international prices, but there are very few bright spots in
* (2300)
So we have to be concerned about that, and
what I was looking for when I reviewed the Estimates of the department was some
indication that the government and this minister were going to focus on some of
the shortcomings that have become apparent in government policy, in government
action over the last little while.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we need to spend
hours talking about tourism, talking about the continuing decline of American
tourists coming into
I did not expect the minister to talk
about some of the criticisms of the initiatives that he talked about. He talked about the Crocus Fund, and again, a
fund that has a great deal of potential, a fund that was on the drawing board
before this government assumed office in 1988.
The member did not talk about the failure
of the Grow Bond program to live up to its objectives, to live up to its
potential. I just happened to pull one
of the many press clippings that talk about Grow Bonds. It talks about the president of the Manitoba
Chamber of Commerce, and this is his quote:
People are very frustrated. They
get the local corporation up and running and the money collected, and they
cannot get a decision out of the government.
It would be nice if that were only the
Grow Bond program. The minister responsible is sitting right here. But the REDI program has a similar
problem. In fact, in the chamber of
commerce brief that was presented to this government‑‑I stand to be
corrected on the exact quote‑‑but I believe the quote from the
chamber of commerce in Brandon was that this was the worst program they had
ever seen because of the bureaucracy, because of the inability to get a
decision out of the bureaucracy, and the apparent lack of direction on the part
of the government.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we could have
spent days, never mind hours, talking about the Immigrant Investor Program and
what the government did or did not do with respect to its obligations
there. Before, when I was preparing for
this Estimates review, I spent some time reading a paper that was prepared by
the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism talking about
It is interesting that in the department's
own criteria, at a time when it already knew there were problems, it is obvious
as events unfolded that no one in the department took any responsibility.
I know the minister has said many times
since that it was a federal responsibility and it was their program. But the fact of the matter is that the
minister knew, and his department knew in February of '90, if not before, that
there were serious problems. The
department took some time to outline what it calls investment review criteria.
It talks about important considerations,
such as job creation, regional development, technology transport, export
potential. At the same time, it was
extending and approving agreements, approving the establishment of funds and
the marketing plans for funds that clearly were not meeting our own guidelines,
never mind perhaps the guidelines established by the federal government in
terms of the program.
I could go through a long list of
potential projects that, I believe, this government has blown. Some of those have been raised by the
previous member for
I know the minister and I differ on the
specifics of that project. But certainly
my reading of it is that the government missed a golden opportunity.
I have mentioned to the minister that
there are manufacturing projects waiting with funding in place from other
institutions and other levels of government.
They have been waiting for months and months and months for a decision
from this department.
So, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, when we review
the department, we are going to, unfortunately, not have enough time to go in‑depth
in each of the branches of the department.
But we are going to be looking for some indication here that things are
about to change in the department.
We have had the shuffling of the deputy
ministers and the acting deputy, and the shuffling of other responsibilities
within the department. It is certainly
not clear when you read over the detailed departmental expenditures that, in
fact, things are changing for the better.
It does not appear that that is about to happen, but I will wait for the
minister to assure me that it is.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the critic from the official
opposition party for those remarks.
Does the critic for the second opposition
party, the honourable member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock), have any opening
comments? We thank that critic.
(interjection) I cannot say that.
Point of
Order
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): On a point of order, you called for the
member for Osborne. I do not see him
here.
An Honourable Member: You cannot say that.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please.
Mr. Orchard: Oh, I am sorry.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We are not allowed to refer to the absence or
presence of a member.
* * *
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Under
We will be dealing with item 1.(b)(1)
Salaries $415,800 on Page 98.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, seated immediately to
my left is Deputy Minister Paul Goyan.
Beside Paul is Val Zinger, our director of Financial and Administrative
Services. Next to Val is Stephen Kupfer,
who is the director of our Financial Services, and finally, Alan Barber, who is
the director of our Research and Economic Services.
Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I have no questions in
the first three categories, so if we want to just proceed and pass those,
unless we are just going to go and discuss it all. Should we just discuss it all?
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: What would the will of the committee be? Would it be to just have a general
discussion, or do you want to move line by line? (interjection) Line by
line? Okay.
1.(b)(1) Salaries $415,800‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $75,500‑‑pass.
1.(c) Financial and Administrative
Services (1) Salaries $641,100‑‑pass.
Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, did we‑‑oh,
we left the Minister's Salary.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Yes.
Mr. Storie: So we are on 1.(b) Executive Support.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Yes, you said to pass that.
Mr. Storie: Yes, I am looking at a different sheet
here. That is fine; keep going.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Carry on?
1.(c)(2) Other Expenditures $341,800‑‑pass.
1.(d) Research and Economic Services (1)
Salaries $371,600.
Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this one intrigued me
a little bit. I would like to know how
many people are in this part of the department.
We will start with that, and perhaps if we could have the number of and
the names of the professional staff in this area.
* (2310)
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, there are seven
positions in this particular area. The
individuals are the director, who I have introduced; seated at the table is Mr.
Alan Barber, and there is an administrative secretary, J. Sereda. The other five professional individuals that
the member was asking about: there is a
research analyst, P. Mackin; a senior policy advisor of science and technology,
R. Humble; a senior consultant, N. Allison.
There is a senior trade economist position that is vacant, and there is
a senior trade economist, D. Au.
Mr. Storie: One of the things that this branch is
supposed to do is undertake policy, research and analysis of trade, science and
technology issues. Over the years,
certainly since the initial discussions on the North American Free Trade
Agreement, we have been asking whether
I am wondering whether in fact the
department, this branch has done anything specific on the impact of NAFTA,
other than the surveys that have been done by outside groups and consultants.
Mr. Stefanson: When it comes to our review of NAFTA, we have
followed several courses. One the member
for Flin Flon is fully aware of is on two separate occasions we have gone
through extensive consultations with Manitoba business, labour, academic,
research, a combination of individual organizations and individuals themselves
which, in the final analysis, we feel is one of the best sources of information
that we can possibly draw on, because these are the people who will have to
function with a potential NAFTA.
We have also reviewed various papers that
have been put out on this particular issue by organizations like the C.D. Howe,
by the department of Finance federally, by Western Diversification and so
on. From a combination of those reviews,
from a combination of our consultations, we have come up with a position on
what we see as being the impact on
Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I have seen some of
the work that the minister is relying on and some of it, of course, is surveys
of chief executive officers. The Canada
West Foundation, C.D. Howe and others have done that kind of analysis. Again, it is very much anecdotal kinds of
reports from CEOs thinking, well, I think we may be able to make inroads here.
I am a little surprised that the minister
suggests that, you know, objective research or objective analysis is not
warranted here. I think that should be
of concern. I remind the minister that
many of the groups who supported the Free Trade Agreement, including the
Canadian Manufacturers Association's president of the day, have since said,
well, we may have made a mistake.
Is there no information at the
department's disposal to justify even the cautious optimism that the minister
seems to have with respect to NAFTA?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, a couple of comments
in response to the member for Flin Flon.
I am led to believe that the process that we have just gone through is
in many respects similar to a process that I assume he would have been a part
of when they were the government doing the review of the Free Trade Agreement
with the
Another point is that I think the member
is aware that current trade activity with
Clearly, they bring to the table an awful
lot of knowledge on trade, on trade issues, on how the Free Trade Agreement has
functioned with the United States, and I believe in the final analysis do
represent the best resource that any government can go to, because they have
put their time, effort, money and livelihoods on the line to deal with one
trade agreement now, and obviously have a significant interest in a potential
agreement with Mexico. They have been an
excellent resource to us and have helped us to formulate what we see as the
opportunities under a North American Free Trade Agreement.
We might end up agreeing to disagree, but
I think the extensive time and effort and consultation and open‑door
policy we have had with Manitobans on dealing with comments on NAFTA is the
best approach that we could use to derive useful information on the issue.
Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am just wondering
if the minister can tell us his current position on NAFTA?
Mr. Stefanson: Yes, I would be pleased to tell the member
for Flin Flon our current position on NAFTA.
To do so I have to step back to our original position just to make it
perfectly clear for him where we were and where we are today.
Back in July of 1991, we said that we
opposed NAFTA unless six fundamental conditions are met. I do not think I need to read all six
conditions into the record. The member
for Flin Flon knows them well.
We then did an analysis again, after
consultation with Manitobans, of those six conditions and how we felt they had
been met to date during the NAFTA process between the three countries. We came to the conclusion that three of them
had not been met to our satisfaction.
Again, I believe the member for Flin Flon knows the three, but I think
it is worth stating what those three are.
One was our condition on labour issues; another was our condition on
environmental issues; and the third one was our condition about concern about
adequate adjustment provisions.
We are very pleased to see that, through a
combination of similar positions, one taken by the new President of the
* (2320)
I want to assure the member for Flin Flon
we are full participants in that, not only from my department but from
Environment and from Labour. In fact,
To date, the condition as it relates to
adequate adjustment assistance has not been met, so our position is we continue
to be opposed to NAFTA until all six conditions are met, and there are still
three outstanding conditions, Mr. Deputy Chairperson.
Mr. Storie: I am just wondering whether the minister
feels he is having any impact, given the fact the federal government refused to
join with President Clinton in expressing concern and demanding sidebar
agreements, particularly on the environmental issues and workplace health and
safety labour issues.
I was trying to, in my opening remarks,
indicate that the government seems to have all the rhetoric right. I have never had a problem with the
minister's rhetoric. What I am concerned
is that it has not always sort of translated itself into action. I asked some
time ago what the government intended to do if the six conditions were not
met. The minister has already
acknowledged that three of them have not been met, and the Canadian government
shows little inclination to make sure that they are met on behalf of
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am pleased to hear
that the member for Flin Flon is pleased with the‑‑he uses the
expression rhetoric‑‑obviously, the position we have taken on this
issue to date.
The point I want to make to him is that I
have been very proud, is probably a good word to use, of the role that
One could say that it is nice to see
countries like the
As I have indicated to the honourable
member, our position is that our six conditions have to be met. We are optimistic with the progress we see on
labour and environmental issues, and we feel certainly the issue of adequate
adjustment assistance is well within the realm of the federal government, and
we will continue to press them to deal with that issue.
Mr. Storie: Can the minister indicate, moving to another
topic, what the government's current understanding is with respect to the
decline in our manufacturing sector? Has
the slide stopped? Is the so‑called rationalization going to continue to
eat away at our manufacturing jobs?
Mr. Stefanson: Firstly, to provide the member for Flin Flon
with some statistics on manufacturing employment, the most recent statistics,
Probably a more important point that I
know I have made to the member for Flin Flon, but I think I have to make again,
is that the recession has hurt manufacturing jobs everywhere, not only in
Canada, but in the United States and in other parts of the world. I will come back to that in one moment.
Despite this,
This seems to be a point that either we
cannot agree to between our different political parties or our message is not
getting through to the opposition parties in terms of recognizing what is
happening worldwide. I want to very
briefly turn to two different articles, one that deals with the
There seems to be this myth or
understanding by some people that
I now want to return to another
article: A struggle to change the way
Bigger is no longer better. Downsizing and re‑engineering are
changing the nature of the large secure organizations that once dominated the
marketplace. While you no longer have to
be everywhere, you have to be ready for competition from anywhere, and it is
not getting any better. The European
community is 17.4 million jobless; 11 percent of the workforce are expected to
be joined by perhaps another 1.5 million idle people by the end of the year. Intensifying internal and global competition
will keep
I quoted some statistics in terms of
manufacturing jobs in the
When you put it in perspective, while
nobody is happy to see job losses in any sector of our economy,
Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I was pleased to have
the minister read about some of the trials and tribulations of other
jurisdictions, but I think we are going to have to disagree over the
statistical base that the minister is using.
My reading is, and this was Stats Canada data as of March '93, that we
have lost almost 25 percent of our manufacturing base, not the 3.3 percent that
he was talking about on a Canada‑wide basis. We are not talking about as a percentage of
all the jobs in the economy. We are
simply talking about year over year in manufacturing, and from 1986 or '87 to
the present time, we have lost thousands and thousands of manufacturing jobs.
* (2330)
My question though was not to ask the
minister to defend on some global basis what is going on, but to ask whether we
have stopped the slide, what the government is going to do, I guess, to bring
those thousands of jobs, manufacturing jobs, back. That was more the question, but we will agree
to disagree on whether there is a problem or not.
The final question: Did the minister ask this branch to do any
analysis on the impact of the Sunday shopping legislation? On rural
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this branch did play
somewhat of a role in terms of our internal analysis of Sunday shopping. Probably the areas more directly involved
were some individuals from our Tourism sector and probably most important was the
Manitoba Bureau of Statistics which we utilize quite extensively.
Mr. Storie: Just one other question. In the area of Other Expenditures, there are
some grants, transfer payments, worth $241,000; $294,000 last year. Who gets those grants?
Mr. Stefanson: That grant assistance is provided for the
Manitoba Centres of Excellence which the member for Flin Flon is fully aware of
and
Mr. Storie: Pass that section, Mr. Deputy Chairperson.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 1.(d) Research and Economic Services (1)
Salaries $371,600‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $195,900‑‑pass;
(3) Grants $241,800‑‑pass.
Item 1.(e)
Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, who is the manager of
the Manitoba Office in
Mr. Stefanson: The same individual as last year, Mr. John
Blackwood.
Mr. Storie: I guess the government is always looking for
ways of saving money. It seems to me one
of the simplest ways to save money is to close this office.
If I recall on Friday of last week, the
Premier felt it necessary to fly to
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I stand to be
corrected, but I think every province in
I have several pages of accomplishments
which I am more than pleased to read into the record for the member for Flin
Flon which will give him a sense of some of the areas of involvement, Mr.
Deputy Chairperson. Whether it is
individual companies that we have been working with, companies in the aerospace
industry, companies like Bristol; whether it is issues like going back to the
whole issue of Canadian Forces Base at Portage la Prairie; whether it is the
issue that I have already touched on‑‑well, I did not touch on‑‑federal‑provincial
relationships and western diversification; whether it is issues like the
militia payroll system; whether it is dealing with constitutional issues and
the time spent on the constitutional issues over the last few years; whether it
is a series of trade issues from GATT to free trade to NAFTA to other issues in
the trade area; and a whole series of procurement‑related activities that
deal with the Canada Space Agency; CIDA; the CP‑140 upgrade; EH‑101
helicopters; the NSA, the New Shipborne Aircraft project; and it goes on and on
in terms of opportunities for Manitoba companies to be a part of federal
government procurements.
So, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think when you
look at the economic opportunities that flow from the federal government, when
you look at the policy and political decision making, there is a lot of merit
to provinces having an office, and I would suggest that our office is certainly
a very frugal one. It has got a grand
total of four people including our administrative officer/secretary. So I think Manitobans, for the amount of
money, are getting good value in terms of the economic returns to our province
and, thereby, the taxes and everything that flows from it to our provincial
government and Manitoba's economy.
Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I do not mean to cast
any doubt on the character of the people who run the office. I think it reflects rather poorly on our
Conservative representation in
I think it reflects rather poorly on our
country when we have to have ambassadors in our own federal capital. It does not seem to me that 20 years ago or
10 years ago we needed to have ambassadors, that the government felt obliged to
deal with each of the regions with some openness and honesty. I think it strikes me as odd that the
government feels it has to, even though its political cousins are in office,
spend this kind of money to get equitable treatment.
It strikes me that notwithstanding some of
the things that may have been facilitated by this office, the fact of the
matter is that we are losing more than our share of jobs, both in terms of CN
and Air
We are not talking about tens of dollars
here; we are talking about millions and millions, and in a time when we cannot find
the money to operate crisis shelters or cannot find the money for education, I
simply say, notwithstanding the qualifications of these people, maybe the money
would be better spent elsewhere.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, having said that,
I would like to pass this section.
* (2340)
Mr. Stefanson: Very, very briefly, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I
do not want the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) to sit there thinking that
these people merely function as ambassadors.
They function in the same respect as individuals who are on the ground
here in
Now, without those economic benefits and
activity, we would not have the additional dollars that are being generated in
our economy to provide the kind of vital services that we are all interested
in, in Health, in Family Services, in Education and so on, Mr. Deputy
Chairperson.
Mr. Storie: I am prepared to pass that section.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 1.(e)
1.(f)
2. Business Services (a) Industry
Development (1) Salaries $1,379,700.
Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, there is a list of‑‑for
the Other Expenditures is about $1.2 million.
Part of that comes from some grants.
I am wondering whether the minister can tell me what those are.
Mr. Stefanson: Just for clarification, I take it the
question is: What is in the Other
Expenditures, the $1,237,800?
Mr. Storie: Yes, particularly the grants. Where are the grants going? It is‑‑what is it?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the different
sections I will read out should total the combination of Other Expenditures and
Grants. The grants of $152,800 are
broken down into two areas. One is Trade
Assistance, which is $151,300, which is a combination of solo trade shows,
incoming and outgoing missions, marketing plan programs and so on in the Trade
Assistance area. The other is a Prairie Implement Manufacturers Association
grant to the annual convention cost of $1,500.
Those two together add to $152,800.
The Other Expenditures category of
$1,237,800, the general categories are these:
Transportation: $206,200, which is travel costs for branch
staff for trade and investment promotion and western regional office staff and
Communications: $230,800, which is telephone, fax, courier,
promotional material, trade investment promotion groups or activities and so
on.
Supply and Services: $526,000, includes a lease cost for office
space in
Other Operating is $261,100.
Mr. Storie: Yes, sometimes we get too much
information. Most of the time it is not
enough.
This area is one of the areas that I sort
of flagged as sort of representing a departure from the rhetoric that the
minister uses. Here we have four staff
deleted from this branch, and if I read at the bottom it says: The sectors represented are those not
encompassed by strategic initiative and include: farm machinery, printing and publishing,
clothing and textiles, warehousing and storage, financial institutions, pulp
and paper, doors, windows and furniture, transportation, energy intensive
industries, whatever, metal fabrication.
It sort of parallels the decline in the
manufacturing sector that I talked about earlier, that it is beverages, it is
manufacturing of durable goods, it is machinery, it is fabricated metal
products, it is printing, publishing and allied, all of which have seen a
significant decline in terms of the number of people employed in those sectors.
We have a manufacturing sector that is in
decline, and the minister talks about a 1,000 job increase year over year. The fact is that it is still significantly
down from where it was, and we are taking away the very people in the
department who are responsible for developing the manufacturing sector in those
areas. This just is not consistent.
We have the very heart of our economy
disappearing, and we have $358,000 being spent on an ambassador's office for
Mr. Stefanson: Firstly, we spoke at length about the
manufacturing sector, and I will not put all of that on the record again. I want to assure the member for Flin Flon
that the areas he has just expressed concern about are all covered off through
consultants in this particular area, that the concern he just expressed does
not exist because those functions are in fact being performed.
We were able, through the reorganization and
the elimination of one ADM position and the consolidation of some of the
functions, to effect a staff reduction in this particular area. I would think,
if the honourable member felt you could still provide the same service to the
sectors that are dealt with under this area with four less people, that would
be something that he would be supportive of.
I could outline for him all of the
different sectors and areas if he would like me to in terms of the actual
complement of staff.
Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would pass that.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 2.(a)(1) Salaries $1,379,700‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $1,237,800‑‑pass; (3) Grants $152,800‑‑pass.
2.(b) Financial Services (1) Salaries
$711,300‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $147,200‑‑pass;
(3) Programs (a)
Mr. Storie: I am wondering if the minister can provide
the committee with a list of companies that have availed themselves of the
Industrial Opportunities Program? I do not
require any explanation, just a list.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, as in the past, that
is not a problem. I believe I should be
able to provide that by tomorrow.
Mr. Storie: Moving on to, at least in the Detailed
Estimates, the next item, Manitoba Industrial Recruitment Initiative, perhaps
the minister could outline which companies have benefited from support under
this program, and how much was provided in each case? Again, if that is not readily available, I
would also accept that at a later date as well.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I referred to a
provision of assistance under this program in my opening comments. In 1992‑93, there were two agreements
approved under the Manitoba Industrial Recruitment Initiative. One was assistance to UMA Engineering, a
$300,000 conditionally forgivable loan; and the other was the Winnipeg Airport
Authority Incorporated, again a $300,000 conditionally forgivable loan.
The two approved projects should result in
the creation of approximately 200
Mr. Storie: Perhaps the minister can outline for me
exactly what jobs are going to be created and what sense the minister has of
how secure those jobs might be.
It seems to me that he is not talking
about industrial jobs, he is talking about jobs that come and go as a result of
contracts that UMA may or may not have in any particular year. It seems that it
has moved outside the original criteria of the program, the way it was
understood, which was industrial recruitment.
We are now talking about professional recruitment, is it?
* (2350)
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am a little
surprised by the question from the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie), based on
our discussion earlier this evening, about the change in the global economy and
the need for knowledge‑based jobs.
These will be knowledge‑based jobs in the engineering field, and
the financial assistance provided is conditionally forgivable tied to job
creation targets to assure us that the jobs are, in fact, created, put in
place, and that we get a return to the Province of Manitoba and the taxpayers.
On any one of these, we do a benefit‑cost
analysis, and we have rules of thumb that we expect them to achieve. I did say "benefit‑cost
analysis," that the benefits exceed the costs of any of these
programs. That clearly is the case with
the assistance to UMA Engineering and their jobs in an export‑orientated,
knowledge‑based economy, the kinds of things that we as a province, we as
a nation want to be doing.
So I would think that should warrant the
support of all political parties.
Mr. Storie: I think I understand what the minister is
trying to do, and I did not say that I did not support it. It seems to me that it has moved outside its
original mandate. My question though
was, it is also true that these jobs come and go. It is very easy for companies to transfer
them after the support has gone.
Can the minister indicate what jobs have
been created so far through the UMA industrial recruitment grant and what
conditions, specifically, are attached to each of those jobs? How long do those jobs have to remain in
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I will get the member
the very specific details, but I do want to assure him that, yes, the jobs are
over a period of years. I believe, in
this case, they are out as far as '96‑97, but I will get the exact
information.
As I indicated to him, we do a benefit‑cost
analysis over that time frame in terms of the direct benefit to the government
of
So we do quantify the benefit cost, and we
build in penalties and interest if those targets are not met, so that we still
end up getting that return to the
Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, moving down to Energy
Intensive Industries, I notice that there is nothing in the budget to support
the attraction of creation of energy intensive jobs in the province. Can the minister explain, despite the fact
that Manitoba Hydro will have surplus energy, and certainly we would like to
think that the government considers it a priority to use our energy to create
jobs in the province, why this area of the budget has been eliminated?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that line in the
Estimates is very specific to the financial assistance provided to Dow Corning
which, again, we have discussed in previous Estimates. It is an agreement running over many years
with assistance coming from the federal government, from the provincial
government and, obviously, from the company.
So that dollar amount that is shown for '92‑93 relates only to Dow
Corning.
(Mrs. Shirley Render, Acting Deputy
Chairperson, in the Chair)
In terms of the broader issue of support
for energy‑intensive industries, I want to assure the member that they
qualify for the other programs that you see in the Estimates, and we have
already discussed some of them, the MIOP program or the MIRI program. As well, they will potentially qualify under
some of the initiatives that will be brought forward by the Economic Innovation
Technology Council in the whole area of research and development and innovation
and technology.
Mr. Storie: Again, the minister then is suggesting that
within the department, there is no one specifically designated to deal with
attracting energy‑intensive industries.
I have raised this‑‑
Mr. Stefanson: Madam Acting Deputy Chair, no, I did not
suggest that. We do have an individual
in the department specifically assigned to that, and what he draws on are the
traditional programs that are in place within the department to utilize when
dealing with them, as well as any programs that exist under any of the other
departments, whether it is Rural Development or whether it is Energy and Mines
or whatever the case might be, but there is an individual assigned to energy‑related
industries.
Mr. Storie: One of the concerns here is that, of course,
the government, also in its wisdom, decided to disband the Manitoba Energy
Authority which had done much of the work‑‑certainly the groundwork
for the Dow Corning project was done by the Manitoba Energy Authority.
Given the importance of energy and the
energy advantage that we have, I think it is really ironic that this whole area
has been undervalued in the department and that we have lost the Energy
Authority which marketed energy for Manitoba Hydro. If it had not been for the Manitoba Energy
Authority, there would have been no Northern States Power sale. There would have been no
It also attracted a lot of other
industries to
I am concerned that we seem to have lost
any initiative that we had when it comes to developing energy‑intensive
industries in the province. Why, given
our energy advantage, is there not a focus on this?
Mr. Stefanson: I want to assure the honourable member that
there is, that there are individuals assigned in this department. There are
individuals working on initiatives from Energy and Mines. Obviously, there is very much of a role to
play with Manitoba Hydro. So, clearly,
there is a lot of focus on energy‑related industries, and it is a
priority.
Just because one body that was in place
called the Manitoba Energy Authority does not exist today, I do not want the
honourable member for a moment to think or to put on the record that the functions
that were being performed by it are not currently being performed, because they
are, Madam Acting Deputy Chair.
Mr. Storie: This is when I am starting to get that buzz
again from government rhetoric. The fact
of the matter is, and I went through this actually with the Minister of Energy
and Mines (Mr. Downey) more than a year ago, I went over a list of projects
that were on the books in 1987‑88, and I defied that minister, the
Minister of Energy, to list one project that is near completion that we can put
our hands on and say, yes, this is what we have accomplished, like a Dow
Corning. The minister could not. So the Minister of Industry, Trade and
Tourism tells me today that, yes, we have those people working.
So can the minister tell us which projects
we can expect in the next six months or the next year or the next year and a
half? Which projects can the minister
tell this committee tonight are legitimate prospects for the creation of jobs,
energy‑intensive jobs, in the province?
Mr. Stefanson: Madam Acting Deputy Chair, there are a series
of initiatives, but to name a couple at this time, there is ongoing discussion
with Dow Corning. Obviously the pilot
plant is functioning, but there are decisions to be made as it relates to the
future of the pilot plant, decisions to be made as it relates to potential
commercialization, silicone production in the
We also are working with the Hydrogen
Council of Canada on a project with
* (0000)
There are a series of other business
initiatives that we are looking at, how they are performing, what expansion
opportunities they have. Again, I want
to assure the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) that if you go back to the
Industry Development section that we just dealt with, you will find that there
are individuals assigned to this particular function, to this area, and there
is a role to play for Energy and Mines.
There is a role to play for Manitoba Hydro. We do have a tremendous opportunity with the
energy capabilities, our affordable, reliable hydroelectric power in this
province, and it is something that we continue to work at maximizing and taking
advantage of for the good of our economy.
The Acting Deputy
Chairperson (Mrs. Render): 2.(b)(3)(b) $170,000
pass‑‑pass; 2.(b)(3)(c) Surface Transportation Technology
$1,130,000‑‑pass; 2.(b)(3)(d) Vision Capital $1,627,800‑‑pass;
2.(b)(3)(e) Crocus Fund $29,500‑‑pass.
2.(b)(3)(f)
Mr. Storie: Could we just have a list of the
Mr. Stefanson: Madam Acting Deputy Chairperson, as the
member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) I believe knows, this one encompasses the
Manufacturing Adaptation Program, the Technology Commercialization Program, the
feasibility studies, and so on. We can certainly provide him information on
(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)
Mr. Storie: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. I have no more questions in this section.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 2.(b)(3)(f) Manitoba Business
Development Fund $2,040,000‑‑pass; (g) Energy Intensive Industries
(zero‑‑pass); (h) Manitoba Industrial Recruitment $1,376,400‑‑pass.
Item 2.(c) Small Business and
Entrepreneurial Development (1) Salaries $601,100.
Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, just a couple of
quick questions here.
Several years ago, the department had
branch offices in Dauphin and in
Mr. Stefanson: The department still has an office in
Mr. Storie: So, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the "One‑Stop"
Information and Library Services, is that considered available to the community
surrounding Brandon, or is that in essence the business development centre here
in Winnipeg?
Mr. Stefanson: Certainly these services are available
through the
I believe, as the member for Flin Flon knows,
the Canada Business Services Program has a 1‑800 number that is available
to all Manitobans and provides information on federal, provincial, municipal
programs within our province.
Mr. Storie: Item 2.(c) Small Business and Entrepreneurial
Development (1) Salaries $601,100‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures
$581,100‑‑pass; (3) Grants $30,000‑‑pass.
Item 2.(d) Cooperative Development (1)
Salaries $245,100.
Mr. Storie: Just one question on this area: How many co‑ops have formed in the last
fiscal year?
Mr. Stefanson: During the last fiscal year, commencing April
1, 1992, and ending March 31, 1993, a total of 20 new co‑operatives have
been incorporated.
Mr. Storie: Can the minister indicate how many of those
have been primary industry, agriculture, fish co‑op, that kind of thing?
Mr. Stefanson: By activity they include worker co‑ops,
housing, commercial fishery, water utility, agricultural, pharmaceutical
wholesale, transportation, cattle feedlots, agricultural, daycare and others,
and they are located in 18 different
Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am glad to see that
with the limited resources that remain in co‑op development that we are
having some success. If the minister has
a list of the co‑ops that have been formed, I would be pleased to have a
copy of that.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I will provide that
along with the other information we talked about earlier.
Mr. Storie: I have no other questions in this area.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 2.(d) Cooperative Development (1) Salaries
$245,100‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $105,700‑‑pass.
2.(e) Grant Assistance ‑ Faculty of
Management $998,800.
Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, here is another place
where the government could choose to save a million dollars if it wanted to be
really concerned about saving the taxpayers money. Can the minister, first of
all, tell us how much has already been contributed to the Faculty of Management
by the provincial government?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we discussed this at
length last year, as the member for Flin Flon will recall. This is a five‑year agreement. We are now in the fifth year of this
agreement, and at the end of the five years the total financial assistance will
be approximately $3.5 million, of which our contribution represents 20 percent,
as I believe the member for Flin Flon knows, with the Faculty of Management
Studies providing 20 percent, the associates of the faculty providing 20
percent‑‑pardon me. I am
sorry. I stand to be corrected. Ours is 40 percent. The
Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I have raised this on
numerous occasions. Given that this is
roughly 2 percent, a little more than 2 percent, of the total departmental
budget, it is just unconscionable that this amount of money is being given away
to the Faculty of Management to complete a political commitment.
The government cannot tell me with any
degree of certainty that any of the money that has been given to the Faculty of
Management has improved the quality of education in that faculty one iota. In fact, several years ago, when we raised
this issue, the minister of the day was suggesting that there had been actually
faculty positions added when that was not the case. I indicated that the Faculty of Management
applied for accreditation. It was
denied.
The Faculty of Management was also one of
those that was assessed by the Canadian business ranking exercise that was
conducted in 1992, and I want to just emphasize that certainly the Faculty of
Management did not come out well in terms of the assessment of this
enterprise. It says that not only did
the faculty not come out well, but unfortunately, the dean of the faculty was
not rated that highly either.
* (0010)
I think we have to ask the question: What has been achieved by following up on
this political commitment? How can you
justify, when your mandate is to create economic opportunity and economic
development in the province, when you have just cut staff out of the department
responsible for industrial development, spending a million dollars and getting
nothing?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, firstly, it is
unfortunate the member for Flin Flon refers to that study that we discussed, I
believe, last year during the Estimates process, because I think he knows full
well that virtually every school that was panned by that study corresponded and
disputed the findings of that study.
I would not sit there and put a great deal
of credibility in one study, one done with very loose criteria by one
organization when in fact the faculties across this nation themselves, no
matter where they rank, even if they ranked high in that study, are saying that
the study is very questionable at best.
More importantly, we hear questions so often from some members of the
opposition about training, education and future opportunities and what
opportunities there are going to be for the young people in Manitoba, and
clearly, again, with the changing economy, to bring the kinds of skills that
come from this particular program can be very beneficial to the Manitoba
economy and to the people who obtain those particular skills.
To give the member an indication of the
involvement by students, the net increase in undergraduate enrollment from '88‑89,
the first year, to '92‑93, is 216 students. The net increase in graduate enrollment from
'88‑89 to '92‑93 is 40 students.
I also want to remind the member that we
are providing 40 percent of the funding for this program. Twenty percent is coming directly from the
students themselves. Twenty percent is
coming from the business community through the associates, and 20 percent is
coming from the
It is not a political agenda or fulfilling
a political commitment or need. It is
obviously something that has the support of the students in the program because
they are paying higher tuitions. It has
the support of the
Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that was a rather
mediocre defence of a very poor decision, but the minister and I are going to
disagree on the merits of this. I think
it is certainly an unfortunate way to squander 2 percent of the department's
resources, because I do not think the minister can, in all seriousness, point
to any evidence that this has improved the quality of education.
In fact, I think, given the minister's rather
catholic view of the global economy, we think that the faculty plan that was
tabled some four years ago now or five years ago very much narrowed the focus
of the Faculty of Management. It
eliminated the whole area of public policy.
If governments are not important in terms of strategic development and
research and development generally, I do not know who is. To eliminate that from a Faculty of
Management just does not make any sense.
I do not think that the faculty was heading in the right direction, and
I am not alone in that. There are many
people working at the faculty who believe that.
It is just a poor way to spend 2 percent of the department's resources.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 2.(e) Grant Assistance ‑ Faculty of
Management $998,800‑‑pass.
Resolution 10.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty
a sum not exceeding $16,283,300 for Industry, Trade and Tourism, Business
Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March 1994.
We will now move on to No. 3. Strategic Initiatives
(a) Tourism Initiatives (1) Tourism Services and Special Projects (a) Salaries
$619,500. Shall the item pass?
Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, perhaps we could
begin by just sort of identifying what projects this branch has been working on
in terms of the activities of the branch.
Other than the general services, are we working on anything new? I guess that is the question. It talks about the electronic laser video
information system. Are we moving on
that? Do we have any other tourism
projects that we are working on?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, just for the benefit
of the member for Flin Flon, the section he is asking this under, I do not want
him to be confused when he sees the heading Tourism Services and Special
Projects. That particular section is
just part of the normal operating costs of the Tourism department.
If you look at the various categories, you
will see further down that there is the Canada‑Manitoba Partnership
Agreement and Tourism Development. But I
will answer the question under this section, because I know what the member was
asking.
Some of the examples would be very
recently, in '93‑94‑‑and I refer you to my opening comments‑‑is
the successful hosting of Rendez‑Vous Canada with some 300 to 350 participants
from around the world in the tourism and travel industry. The Canada‑Manitoba Tourism Agreement,
as of June 22 of 1993, a total of 36 projects valued at $3.7 million have been
approved under that agreement. We have
also supported the SuperHost program which, I believe, the member is quite well
aware of, being delivered by the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce, a very important
initiative in terms of a training program to enhance service in the tourism
industry.
We also support the Manitoba Tourism Education
Council which is dealing with the whole are of tourism occupational standards
and certification. We also are currently
in the process of developing the Tourism centre at The Forks, one of
We also are dealing with computerization
of our tourist information centres, and computers have been installed in the
information centres for more efficient data entry of registrations. We also, as the member I believe is aware,
have initiated a new marketing campaign with a six point strategy with a core
cost of some $1.6 million, introducing a series of powerful television
commercials, launching six regional tourism routes, increasing the value per
dollar that tourists receive on a range of products through the Manitoba Values
Guide, introducing a U.S. visitor value program to market Manitoba as a
reasonably priced destination, and launching a targeted response‑driven
campaign of specialty markets. We also
have been supportive of a particular initiative, the
* (0020)
Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we can, I guess, move
off the Tourism Services area and get into a couple of other sort of general
questions. Number one, is the Manitoba
Master Angler Program in jeopardy?
Mr. Stefanson: The short answer is no. The Manitoba Master Anglers Program is not in
jeopardy. We feel it has worked very
well as a marketing initiative. There
are some concerns around possible changes, maybe in some ways to how it functions. We continue to work with the industry in that
respect but the program as such certainly has our support and to the best of my
knowledge has the support of the industry.
Mr. Storie: I agree.
I have heard rumours that the Master Anglers Program may be a victim of
restraint. I am pleased to hear that the
Minister responsible for Tourism is supportive of it, because I think it has
been a very good program, notwithstanding some potential for misuse of the
program by certain lodges and outfitters.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister
mentioned the new ad program and I am wondering whether we can have some
indication of what the cost was for the making of these new
"powerful" ads and whether there has been any sort of consensus
amongst the viewing public as to the impact of those ads.
Mr. Stefanson: In responding to those questions, the total
cost of both television ads, that I hope the member for Flin Flon has seen, is
approximately $400,000. The feedback
from the industry associations has been positive, responses to date are very
encouraging. An independent assessment
was done by an organization called Gallup, who do different assessments of
television approval ratings for different commercials and so on. They have an
assessment process that they do, and they did an assessment of this one. Without getting into all the technicalities,
because I would have to get the details of how their assessment works, but what
I am told is if you achieve a rating of 40, that is considered very reasonable.
The first ad that was run achieved an
approval rating of 65, which is, based on the
So, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in terms of
that independent assessment by
Mr. Storie: I certainly would not disagree with the
public opinion. I found them quite
powerful ads as well. I think there were
two problems. Number one, I do not know
that there was product identification, but more importantly, I wonder about the
timing of the ads. The minister and I
have had discussions before about the fact that the industry always was of the
opinion that the earlier you began your tourism campaign, the more effective it
was, and that the industry many years ago, when I was minister, said we should
start our campaign in February (interjection)
Yes, we did, and it appeared to work. Again, as the minister said, the industry
response was very positive, and all indications are‑‑certainly it
makes a lot of sense that if you raise those images when people are planning
their vacations, you are going to be more successful than if it is three months
after they have already made their plans, which in this case, that is when we
started seeing the ads. I think that is
a criticism that the minister may have heard from others as well.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, on both the points
that the member for Flin Flon raises, the product identification feedback that
we got‑‑again we discussed this last year that the last couple of
years we have done some research on follow‑up to our campaigns to see
what kind of response they are in fact generating. The research has indicated that in many
respects, Manitoba, in the past there was a lack of differential from many
other markets, large urban centres and so on, so our research found that what
was most appealing to many individuals was a combination of safety, of clean
environment, historical heritage and friendly, and we feel that through both
ads that you see on television, that does come through fairly loud and clear.
As well, there was some concern about
focusing on all of
On the timing issue, I guess that is
something we do look at every year, but again, as the member knows, having been
Tourism minister, our focus is in our primary access market, which is Manitoba,
North Dakota, Minnesota and northwestern Ontario and parts of Saskatchewan, and
really their decision‑making time frame is in the April, May, June time
frame because the vast majority of the tourism season, in particular to the
U.S., I believe something like two‑thirds come up here between June, July
and August. So we feel we are hitting
the window of opportunity when they are in the midst.
* (0030)
It is a shorter time frame than somebody
who is planning a vacation of a much greater distance, which is just the
norm. I think Canadians that are
travelling great distances tend to plan much more in advance. If you are travelling a shorter distance, it
usually also coincides with a shorter timing time frame. So we feel that we are hitting the market in
an appropriate time to capture the crowd that we want.
Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, just a couple of
other quick questions on tourism‑related information. Number one, I would like to know the
province's contribution towards the little travel booklet with McDonald's. I assume that that was some kind of co‑op
ad promotion. What is the province's
contribution there?
Secondly, what happened to, and what was
the province's contribution to, the Showing Us Your Manitoba with, I guess,
Kodak as co‑sponsors? What was the
province's contribution?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in response to both
of those questions, the travel booklet that is being distributed this year
through McDonald's, there are 300,000 copies produced. Our cost of production
is $150,000, and McDonald's made a contribution of $50,000 towards that
campaign.
The second question about Showing Us Your
Manitoba through Kodak, I believe, was an initiative back in '91‑92. That was the year that it was
implemented. It was done in conjunction
with Kodak, with them basically picking up the vast majority of the costs. Our costs were very nominal. I could undertake to get further information
on that for the member if he so wishes, but our costs were very nominal in that
campaign.
Mr. Storie: Yes, I think the minister is right, although
this did include up to August 27. There
was a second round of it, I guess.
I have a letter, for the minister's
information, from Bruce Leckie, the minister's assistant, providing some
information, and what was interesting was that plans were to obtain negatives,
enlarge photos and do a display. Photos
were not the best quality and not all negatives were obtained; therefore, the
plans for a display fell through.
I was just wondering what the province had
contributed to that exercise, and perhaps it is in the previous Estimates, but
if the minister can give me a figure at some point, it would be appreciated.
Mr. Stefanson: I will do that, Mr. Deputy Chairperson.
Mr. Storie: The minister had talked about a number of
different projects that were tied into the Canada‑Manitoba Tourism
Agreement. He mentioned the new Tourism
centre at The Forks. I think he said
$2.3 million. I am wondering if the
minister can tell us now how much money is left to commit under the Canada‑Manitoba
Tourism Agreement?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if I understand
correctly, I want to make it clear that that funding is from the old tourism
agreement, the '85‑90 tourism agreement, and has been set aside in trust
for this particular project. So there is
no commitment out of our new tourism agreement.
That money is sitting in trust, and I believe proposal calls are just
closing now for the development of that facility.
Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it appears that the
minister is going to take credit for my good work. I think there is something wrong with that‑‑no,
I think it is an important addition to tourism services in
The other question I had related to the
agreement and its applicability to northern
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we have certainly
been pleased with the level of interest from the North to date in this
project. Just to give a general
indication, first of all, and then some specific examples, under the rural
modernization and expansion program element of this agreement, to date there
are 25 applications in process; there are eight that have been approved. So that is on the modernization and expansion
of facilities in rural
Under the provincial marketing program,
which has been some take‑up from northern
Mr. Storie: Was that for the northern regions or is that
for the program?
Mr. Stefanson: The marketing is overall, but some of them
are from northern
Then some facilities, Manitoba Destination
Northwest, New Vickery Lodge, northern Manitoba, a consortium of 14 lodge and
outfitters‑‑this is still marketing‑‑marketing campaign
to promote the areas of The Pas, Flin Flon, Cranberry Portage and Snow Lake.
Then another one, Elbow Lake Lodge and
Canadian Wilderness Outfitters, Elbow
Now, under‑‑
Mr. Storie: Just table that list because now your voice
will be getting tired.
Mr. Stefanson: Okay.
Just so you have a sense of a couple of the product development,
Carpenter's Clearwater Lodge, The Pas, a forgivable loan for the construction
of a central indoor recreation facility, Viking Lodge in Cranberry Portage for
the construction of a new 24 by 32 eight‑person cabins, and Bakers
Narrows Lodge, Flin Flon, for the expansion and modernization of the kitchen
area, winterize and re‑siding 15 existing cabins. So I think that gives an indication of both
the marketing and the product development that is serving northern
Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, certainly there needs
to be some, I guess, incentive for people to upgrade and create new
attractions. For whatever reason,
certainly the last couple of years have been very difficult ones particularly
for the lodge and outfitters in northern
* (0040)
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, no further
questions on that, but the last one in this section has to do with the Horse
Racing Commission, and I notice that there is a significant drop in the
government's contribution. I am assuming
that is due to the fact that the pari‑mutuel tax‑take by the
government has declined, that the wagering handle has declined somehow. I wonder if that is indicative of the fact
that this whole industry is in trouble and whether the minister can tell us
where it is going.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member is correct
in terms of the number. It is directly
related to a projection of the pari‑mutuel take. It is down based on obviously lower
expectations of handles and therefore lower pari‑mutuel taxes.
I think, as the member for Flin Flon knows,
out of the total pari‑mutuel taxes collected, all of the money now flows
back to horse racing in
In terms of where the industry is at
today, there certainly has been fairly extensive coverage over the last period
of time through the local media, I think some articles in one of today's papers. There is a nonprofit jockey club that has
been organized by individuals from the thoroughbred industry that are in the
process of negotiating with the current owners, the Wright family, to
potentially acquire Assiniboia Downs. I
believe the Wrights are the only privately owned race track remaining certainly
in
We provided some financial support to the
jockey club to retain professional services.
They have retained the accounting firm of Price Waterhouse to do an
economic value analysis of Assiniboia Downs to determine what is a reasonable
range of price for the facility.
Obviously, they have had the benefit of using that as a barometer for
what the facility is worth. Those
negotiations are ongoing right now.
We are in continual contact with the
jockey club as we are with the Wright family, as we are with the thoroughbred
industry, as we are with the harness industry in terms of the great western
circuit. We will see what happens as
those negotiations unfold and what role we might need to play, if any, in terms
of helping to make it happen.
I think the Wright family and the industry
itself recognize that is one way, potentially, for the industry to survive and
function, not unlike as is happening in other jurisdictions in
Mr. Storie: Can the minister tell us how many jobs he
estimates that are being supported by the operation of the
Mr. Stefanson: As the member for Flin Flon knows, I think,
when you get into some of these‑‑if I understand the question, if
you are looking at the total industry, the number most recently used is a range
of anywhere from 1,500 to 2,000 of the total industry from Assiniboia Downs
through to the backstretch through to the farms.
Mr. Storie: Can the minister indicate whether there is
any inclination for the government to provide a loan guarantee to the
association if it should be able to negotiate a deal?
Mr. Stefanson: If the Jockey Club negotiates a price that
makes economic sense in terms of the future and the viability of that
particular industry, subject to seeing a long‑term plan and opportunity
here, we are prepared to review a series of alternatives whereby we could help
effect a transfer. Providing some
portion of a loan guarantee might well be one of them.
Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I move that the
committee adjourn.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. At this time I see the honourable‑‑(interjection)
Okay.
It has been moved by the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie)
that committee rise. What is the will of
the committee?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chair, if I could ask the member
to perhaps withdraw that motion. I have
returned. The committee allowed me to
take some time to do a little research on a question. We had a pressing matter, and if perhaps we
could complete the passage of the Estimates of the Civil Service Commission and
the civil service supplementary benefits, then I would certainly be in support
of a motion for the committee to rise, if the member for Flin Flon would be so
kind as to accommodate that request.
Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, never let it be said
that I would stand in the way of a well‑researched response.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee then that we
will move to the Civil Service Commission? (agreed)
In that case, we will now move back to the
Department of Civil Service with the Minister of Labour.
CIVIL
SERVICE COMMISSION
(continued)
Mr. Deputy Chairperson
(Marcel Laurendeau): Item 1.(a) Executive Office (1) Salaries
$233,700‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $58,400‑‑pass.
1.(b) Administrative Services (1) Salaries
$554,300‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $537,500‑‑pass.
1.(c) Human Resource Management Services
(1) Salaries $1,471,900‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $803,900‑‑pass;
(3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations $(341,900)‑‑(pass).
1.(d) Labour Relations Services (1)
Salaries $826,400‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $233,500‑‑pass.
1.(e) French Language Services Secretariat
(1) Salaries $145,600‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $21,900‑‑pass.
Resolution 17.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty
a sum not exceeding $4,545,200 for Civil Service Commission for the fiscal year
ending the 31st day of March, 1994.
The hour being 12:50 a.m., committee rise.
HOUSING
* (2000)
Madam Chairperson
(Louise Dacquay): Order, please.
Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply is
dealing with the Estimates for the Department of Housing. We are on item 1.(b) Executive Support, page 95
of the Estimates manual.
Would the minister's staff please enter
the Chamber.
Shall item 1.(b) Executive Support (1)
Salaries $306,600 pass?
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (
Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister
of Housing: Madam Chairperson, nonprofit‑owned and
sponsor‑managed units, 19,110; rent supplement units which may or may not
be in a nonprofit project, they can be in private‑sector units as well as
nonprofit projects, 1,834; plus CMHC has a number of direct‑managed
nonprofit units of which we have no idea what the numbers are. I could not tell you whether there is one or
a thousand or 10,000. CMHC would be able to tell you that information. There may be some other types of nonprofits
of which we are not aware or we have no involvement.
Mr. Lamoureux: The 1,834, can the minister further expand in
terms of‑‑if he can maybe give some specific examples of what those
would be?
Mr. Ernst: Madam Chairperson, 1,834 represent rent supplement
units, and basically what happens is that you own a private‑sector
apartment building where the market rent for that building is $600 a
month. At 25 percent of income, you
would be obliged to pay, let us say, $300 a month. The difference between 25 percent of income
and market rent is rent supplemented or subsidized by ourselves and CMHC. Those units are transferable over a 35‑year
period, I guess. Well, it depends on
when they originally came in, but the new ones at least are over a 35‑year
period.
Mr. Lamoureux: So that has nothing to do with the SAFER and
SAFFR programs.
Mr. Ernst: No, it does not.
Mr. Lamoureux: Can the minister indicate, in terms of the
current housing co‑ops, how many provincially government sponsored
housing co‑ops there are?
Mr. Ernst: Madam Chair, we do not have the number broken
down on the basis which the member has requested. What happens is we have a number of co‑ops
that fall under our nonprofit housing program and are 100 percent subsidized,
so we show them as nonprofit, 100 percent subsidized units, not as co‑ops. It would be a considerable amount of work for
us to go through now all of these projects and pull out to try to decide
whether they are co‑ops or not.
Whether they are co‑ops only in terms of management as opposed to
co‑ops in terms of ownership is quite a different matter. That is as much as I can tell the member.
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chairperson, I know the former Minister of
Housing had a red book which he provided me, which had all of the different
housing authorities, and inside that book it listed, for example, Winnipeg
Regional, which would have been the largest, the different locations, where
these nonprofit housing units are, if they were elderly, if they were low‑income
families and so forth. I would ask the
minister, do they still maintain that particular book, understanding, of
course, that we no longer have the 140‑plus authorities. We do have one, so one would think it would
even be that much more easier to maintain a book of this nature.
Mr. Ernst: The former minister did not leave me the
book, so I cannot comment on whether he did or did not have a book of one
particular colour or another. The fact
of the matter is that there were 98 housing authorities previously, and under
those 98 housing authorities would have been, I suppose, listings of units that
were owned or managed by them.
Manitoba Housing Authority deals on a
direct management basis with about 14,000 or so units. The rest are sponsor managed, excluding the
rent supplement. But we have an
inventory, if that is what the member is referring to. There is an inventory of all units that are
owned and managed by the Manitoba Housing Authority.
Mr. Lamoureux: The reason why I asked that is I would quite
often get a phone call asking myself in terms of where someone could apply for
housing, and one would like to be able to provide individuals some sort of an
idea for housing, whether it is housing in a traditional nonprofit, where the
federal government plus the provincial government can contribute, whether it is
the federal government that contributes to the operational costs, whatever it
might be. We are quite often asked the
question in terms of location of these facilities, and I am wondering if the
minister can indicate what the government policy or Manitoba Housing and
Renewals policy is with respect to this list.
* (2010)
Mr. Ernst: We do not think that there are any CMHC
direct‑managed units in Winnipeg, so I would suggest, if the member has one
of his constituents or someone else call him with respect to housing units and
availability and types‑‑and we have about 14,000 units in Winnipeg,
something like that‑‑that he simply either call or have his
constituent call directly to Manitoba Housing Authority, 700‑294 Portage
Avenue. They can respond immediately
with what is available in units right across the whole spectrum. So if they want to live in the west end,
south end, the north end, the east end, or anywhere in between, the
availability of those units at any given date, including waiting lists if any,
for unit type and so on are all available there through the Manitoba Housing
Authority.
Quite frankly, when somebody calls my
office, that is what I do. I phone the
Manitoba Housing Authority to look into that because they have the most up‑to‑date
information. I do not know if anyone
other than the Manitoba Housing Authority would have any kind of information in
terms of up‑to‑date available types of units, say, across the broad
spectrum. If you want a three‑bedroom
townhouse in Charleswood, they will know that.
If you want a one‑bedroom apartment building downtown, they will
also know that. If they want a senior's
unit in Elmwood, they will know that.
So that is probably the best way of dealing
with the issue, to contact or have them contact‑‑the client
actually is probably the best person‑‑the Manitoba Housing
Authority directly, and they will put them‑‑we have property
managers available constantly to deal with those kinds of questions and
concerns. We can provide information to people on what options they have and
the general spectrum of what is involved in occupying and qualifying for a
public housing unit.
In addition to that, we also have the
sponsor‑managed projects to which we can refer people if they want to be
in a specific building. For instance, if
they want to come along and say, I would like to be in the Polish seniors home
on
Mr. Lamoureux: On two things, first, Madam Chairperson, when
I was referring to CMHC, they do fund the operational cost, at least from what
I understand, of many nonprofit housing units.
I am assuming that they do contribute substantially to the 14,000 units
that are even administered through the Manitoba Housing Authority.
Just for clarification, the question that
I do have to the minister is‑‑and it has happened more than once
where I have had a phone call and individuals have asked if they could, in
fact, see where the nonprofit housing units are located. In other words, go down to an office, say
show me the list, and then they can page through and look for a place. I am convinced that it happened on more than
one occasion where it was indicated that you have to apply to the sector of the
city that you live in, and they will indicate in that particular sector. That is not the case. In fact, they do have access to all the
listings of nonprofit housing, or this 14,000 that the Manitoba Housing
Authority administers.
Mr. Ernst: Let me say to the member that as far as CMHC
support is concerned, given now that we are based on today's type of housing
programs, CMHC provides 75 percent subsidy of all of the units, sponsor
managed, whatever.
With respect to a tenant approaching Manitoba
Housing Authority, we generally ask them what area of the city you are
interested in living in. Most of the
time, if not all of the time, they would say
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chairperson, I want to move on in terms
of the 14,000 units that are in fact out there and would ask the minister,
these units then are all managed through Manitoba Housing? (interjection) They
are not managed through Manitoba Housing.
The question is in terms of what type of headway are we making in terms
of establishing a tenants association.
The minister has alluded to Gilbert Park. The member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes)
talked about Gilbert Park or
Mr. Ernst: Madam Chairperson, you cannot equate tenant
associations with management of a property.
Tenant associations may deal with tenant‑related issues and may
deal with repairs and maintenance of a property and so on, but that is not
hands‑on management of a property.
From that perspective, there are projects with tenant associations where
management is connected either by the Manitoba Housing Authority, and I think
we can probably tell you exactly how many units the Manitoba Housing Authority
directly manages.
In addition to that, there are private‑sector
sponsor managers; there are MHRC‑owned properties that are managed by
sponsor groups; there are those kind of groups which own their own property and
are funded by Manitoba Housing and CMHC.
Then on top of that, you have other properties and organizations that
are managed by nonprofit management companies like SAM (Management) or Murdoch
Management or some of those kinds of companies.
You know, there is a wide variety. By far the largest numbers of units are
managed directly by the Manitoba Housing Authority, but SAM (Management)
manages some units on behalf of sponsor groups.
Some sponsor groups manage their own units, so there is a variety of
circumstances all around.
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chairperson, SAM (Management) as an
example, yes, could manage for a sponsor group if there is a‑‑whatever
group, it could even be a co‑op.
They could always ask for SAM (Management) to come in and administer,
but in terms of the Manitoba Housing Authority itself, it does not have SAM
(Management) or any others managing that stock.
That stock is the 14,000, is that not right?
* (2020)
Mr. Ernst: Not exactly.
SAM (Management) does manage some units directly for the MHA, but their
historical sense is that prior to the formation of the MHAs, they managed units
directly for the Department of Housing.
We just simply left them there, but they fall under the jurisdiction now
of the Manitoba Housing Authority who deal with all sponsor groups associated
with their projects so that‑‑you know, the Polish association and
Filcasa and all these that are all sponsor‑managed groups, they still
report through the MHA.
The MHA is responsible for making sure
that they live up to the terms of their agreements, provide the appropriate financial
information and all of the other requirements under those agreements. All that work is not done in the
department. It is done in the Manitoba
Housing Authority for which they are responsible.
Basically, in the case of SAM (Management)
and, I think, in the case of two or three projects that historically they
managed before the formation of the Manitoba Housing Authority, we treat them
simply as a sponsor group now with respect to those projects‑‑one
in St. Vital, I think, St. Andrew's Place and maybe one other.
Mr. Lamoureux: In terms of the Manitoba Housing Authority, is
it their intention to eventually manage those particular blocks? I am wondering in terms of why or how it
would be efficient or more efficient to have some of the units being administered.
I do not question the private
sponsorships, nonprofit housing. I do
not question that at all, just in terms of the former Winnipeg Regional Housing
that had 4,400 units and it did the managing.
Then there was the idea of getting everything into one super board was
to try to make things that much more efficient or streamlined, to provide
better service for individuals that were looking for nonprofit housing units.
We just finished talking about the
referrals. Somebody walks into the
Manitoba Housing Authority, and they find that they want to see which housing
complexes are there that they would like to possibly consider moving into if,
in fact, they fall below a certain level of income. Those that are managed‑‑even
though the authority is ultimately with Manitoba Housing, some are, in fact,
managed by SAM (Management). Is the
government wanting to, in the long term, leave it with SAM (Management)? If so, what would be the logic behind doing
that?
Mr. Ernst: First of all, let me answer directly the
question. SAM (Management) historically managed these units. So it was a question, then, when you formed
the Manitoba Housing Authority, do you take them away from SAM (Management) or
not? If you do, do you jeopardize the
operations of SAM (Management)? Do you
take away 400 or 500, 600 units, whatever it is away from them? Is that going
to jeopardize their operation? Will that
impact upon other work that SAM (Management) does for other groups?
So we said, for the time being at least
anyway, and we do not have any direct plans to take them away from anybody
else, but we simply said, leave them where they are and they will continue to
manage them.
As a matter of fact, to get to the first
example I was going to give you. We had
a private, nonprofit who managed their own property where we had significant
cause for concern with respect to the financial statements that were
filed. We, in fact, moved in and, under
our agreement, took over the management of the property. This was before the MHA was set up, just
before the MHA was set up, and we actually brought in SAM (Management) to
operate it on our behalf. They were the
most familiar with the area, the most familiar with the kinds of units that
were there, and were the best able to manage that particular property on our
behalf. So, rather than do it through
Winnipeg Regional, we, in fact, brought in SAM (Management) to do it on our
behalf when we took it over.
So not every vehicle is the appropriate
vehicle. You may need a mix of vehicles
in order to manage all property to the best for all concerned. So we have those vehicles available; then we
will use them.
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chairperson, I am not entirely
convinced, but I would think that the government‑‑but I wanted to
go on in terms of the housing stock, the 14,000, if you like. Can the minister give a best guess or
something to that effect with respect to what it would take to bring up all the
nonprofit housing units just from Manitoba Housing Authority in those units
that SAM (Management) would manage on behalf of that authority in terms of
bringing them up to standard?
Mr. Ernst: I would hope that they are all up to standard.
Daily, hourly, they may change from that status, depending upon what is
occurring in units or neighbourhoods or whatever, and with that many units it
is very difficult to determine. Again,
you would have to describe for me in some detail what standard means. What is your view of standard as opposed to
the building code, as opposed to the use and occupancy by‑law of the City
of
I would think most of the units are in
pretty good condition. Those that are
not are taken out of service. We will
not jeopardize anyone's health or safety in that regard, and so I think, by and
large, we conduct a major maintenance and repair program of anywhere from $5
million to $10 million a year depending upon types of units and problems that
have occurred.
As we heard from the member for Point
Douglas (Mr. Hickes) earlier, we spent quite a bit of money at
We have an ongoing regular maintenance
program. We have an ongoing kind of
minor repair program, and then we have the major refits that we do from time to
time on a number of these units. To give you an example, the one I drive by
quite frequently is the one on
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chairperson, the reason that I asked is
a couple of years back the then‑Minister of Housing commented in terms
something to the effect that $20 million would be necessary to bring up
houses. Just to say the word
"standard" can be somewhat open ended, and I can understand why the
minister might have had that sort of response to it. But let me ask the minister, is Manitoba
Housing Authority able to keep housing units open?
Often I drive down on
Mr. Ernst: Let me respond, Madam Chair, first to the
question of the $20 million the member raises.
That may have been the requirement of Manitoba Housing under whatever
form to bring all of their buildings in excess of three stories up to the City
of
* (2030)
In response to the latter question, from
time to time, units get damaged, for whatever reason. We had a major crime committed in one of
those units. Unfortunately we seem to get
our share, more than our share, of activities that occur in Manitoba Housing
units.
The most recent one, I guess, was the one
in Flin Flon. For police purposes, that
unit may be boarded up for six months because of crime evidence or
whatever. There may be a fire in a unit,
in which case, by the time you get it all adjusted and everybody decides who is
responsible and what has to be done and so one, it may take two, three or four
months.
We may have significant damage done for
some other reason in there that takes some time to get it sorted out and get it
repaired and back into service, but the intent is, by and large‑‑we
have the units there for a purpose. We
want to rent them out. You cannot rent
them out if they are not in a habitable condition.
So we have to deal with those issues and
deal with them regularly. We have the
budgetary authority to deal with those and to carry on necessary repairs just
as soon and as quickly as we can deal with them.
Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, Madam Chairperson, generally speaking,
the concern would be, of course, those units where you have a problem tenant
and, once the tenant leaves or if the tenant has been evicted, that you are
able to get that unit back into operation as quickly as possible.
I have had concerns with the numbers that
have been thrown around in terms of units that have been out for a while.
Unfortunately, I do not have the specific examples. Maybe the next time through the Estimates we
will be able to go through a few specific examples, because listening to what
the minister is saying, at least one feels somewhat comfortable in the sense
that units are not, or those units that do need the work in terms of upgrading
to get them back in commission, if you like, that the money is being made
available for them.
The senior housing units, can the minister
indicate what sort of vacancy rate there is with that, the single, what many
refer to as, shoe‑box apartments?
Mr. Ernst: Well, Madam Chair, I cannot give you an exact
number, but what I can say is that the vacancy rate is around 10 percent, and
of that 10 percent, those are seniors units.
They are not all bachelors. I
guess around 80 percent of them would be bachelors. So you can guess from that that a significant
number at least are vacant.
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chair, the ones that I am most
concerned about, and I pointed them out earlier, the Bluebird, the Annex. There
is another one on the
Mr. Ernst: We do not maintain for our own purposes vacancy
lists of sponsor‑managed projects.
While we would know that information if we were at the office and were
able to check, we do not have it here as to what vacancies are in those
projects.
I can say to the member that I have met
with people from Bluebird Lodge over their concern over these bachelor units.
Their concern as sponsors, as well as our own concerns as direct managers for
bachelor units right across the city, is significant. We have a very large problem with respect to
vacancies in bachelor units. Quite
frankly, because rent geared to income does not discriminate between types of
units, you pay whatever your rent geared to income is. So you have a choice of a bachelor unit of
500 square feet, and you have a choice of a one bedroom unit at 650 square
feet, which one are you going to take?
You are going to take the best unit.
What had happened, of course, in the mid‑'70s
when most if not all of this stock was built‑‑and it happened not
only in the public housing stock although there are considerably more units in
the public housing stock, it happened even in the private rental stock built at
that time‑‑was that there was still a demand for bachelor units,
and people who wanted to live in an accommodation had the least cost.
What Manitoba Housing was doing in the
'70s was trying to provide a lot because there was not very much, if any, trying
to provide a lot of stock right away.
That served the purposes of most seniors at that time. In the ensuing 20 or so years, seniors have
become a lot more discriminating, generally speaking, or somewhat better off
than they were in the past, and so as a result have said, well, gosh, now that
we have a choice between‑‑before it was living in the third floor
of a house down in the core area of Winnipeg at $300 a month or taking a very
nice, new high‑rise building like 185 Smith Street in Winnipeg with a
bachelor unit that cost them $200 a month.
What was the choice? I mean, they
took the new high‑rise apartment building at $200 a month with the
bachelor unit. However, you know, time
marched on. The kinds of units
changed. The mix changed in buildings,
and what happened is all of a sudden now down the street from 185 Smith is a
new sponsor‑managed project that has one‑bedrooms at 650 square
feet with a balcony and things of that nature.
All of a sudden the tenant in the bachelor
unit says, hey, this is pretty nice.
What is the cost of that? The
cost is the same. Well, guess where I
want to move; down they go. So you see
the kind of dilemma that occurred over a period of time.
Now, as I said earlier this afternoon,
hindsight is 20‑20. Knowing what we know today, we would not have built
all of those bachelor units, but we are looking at various means and ways of
trying to reduce the overall vacancy rate.
We are looking at other uses of those kinds of buildings. In some cases, perhaps tenanting them with
other single males and females, where there is no, really, market program or
housing program for them.
* (2040)
We are looking at alternate uses of
buildings. Maybe we are going to sell it
to a native housing group to ultimately own, control and utilize for their
purposes. We are looking at a variety of
ways and means of dealing, including, in some cases, renovations to the point
where we would, where possible‑‑and it is not always possible
because of the way buildings were built in those days.
The downtown YWCA is a classic example of
how not to build a building with the potential for change in the future. The situation that occurred in that building
and a great many others is you cannot move because all of the interior walls
are bearing walls. So you cannot start
moving walls inside without having the building fall down.
We have a number of buildings where it is
not physically possible to take two or three bachelor units and create two one‑bedrooms
out of it, but there are some that you can.
We have done, in fact, some or had some of those that have been changed
by some sponsors to meet certain demands and so on.
So there is a number of issues that we
have to deal with, and it will take some time to deal with them all. We will, over a period of time, try and
resolve this problem, but at the moment, at least, it is still more economic to
run a higher vacancy rate than it is to go and spend and borrow a whole pile of
money to renovate those units into one‑bedroom suites and suffer the loss
of income as a result, because you are going to get less income from one one‑bedroom
suite, obviously, on a rent‑geared‑to‑income basis than you
are out of two bachelor units. So even
though there are high vacancy rates, the buildings are not vacant by any
stretch of the imagination.
In some cases, I say, vacancy rates may be
around 10 or 12 percent, and the individual property may be even higher than
that from time to time, but the fact of the matter is, even if you expend
several tens of thousands of dollars to renovate these units, you are not
necessarily going to get payback from it.
So you have to continually balance that to
determine whether or not we are going to do it.
These things are under review on a constant basis, and the MHA is
charged with either filling the unit on a rental basis or coming up with some
other response to deal with those issues.
As owners, the Manitoba Housing Renewal
Corporation do deal with it from time to time as well. We look at chronically vacant units. We look at:
Do we really need units in this place anymore? Have the dynamics changed, the demographics
changed so that the potential for the future is gone and we might as well cut
our losses now? So it was all those
kinds of issues that are dealt with on a daily basis.
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chairperson, the reason why I bring this
particular issue up is that if you take a look, especially as I say, at the
Bluebird or the Annex and I have gone through those facilities‑‑not
recently‑‑but I was given the impression that you quite often get a
15 percent to 20 percent vacancy rate.
One of the problems in that immediate area, in that Weston area, I am
not quite as familiar with the Brooklands, there seems to be a demand for
senior housing of sorts.
With all these programs or different
programs that are made available for housing, in particular I look at the
program, for example, like life‑for‑lease, what Fred Douglas has
done with the Manor. If you are looking
at some of these buildings, I would think that in fact you could‑‑and
again I am not an architect or anything of that nature by any stretch of the
imagination‑‑but I think that when you are hovering around that 15
percent and up to 20 percent, it is well worth taking some form of action in
the not‑too‑distant future.
At least I was under the impression in a
number of different areas in the city, I think that you will find the same
circumstances where there is a demand for senior housing. Yet these apartment complexes that were made
during the '70s are not meeting the expectations of the senior that might have
a $35,000 home that has been paid for and would like the opportunity to move
out.
That is why I was always a big supporter
of the life‑for‑lease program.
I know the minister is quite familiar with that particular program, but
at least it provided the opportunity for a senior to have some equity to move
into a place, to get out of their house, for whatever reasons that they might
have. I think that some of these blocks
that are out there could be renovated to cater for that. My overriding concern was that in fact there
is something that is being done to take care of that particular problem.
I am not yet convinced that in fact the
Department of Housing is doing enough in the sense that I believe that there
are demands that are out there. Creative
programming could allow for these vacancy rates to drop and better housing for
our seniors. I do not know if the minister was wanting to comment on that or I
will just continue on to the next area.
One of the big concerns that I have, and I
talked about it in my opening remarks, is with respect the housing co‑ops. If the minister does not already know, I am a
fan of the housing co‑ops. I think
that they have great potential. I would
like to know what the Minister of Housing's position is on housing co‑ops. Does he see more programs coming down to help
facilitate growth in that sector of nonprofit housing?
I know that the government has taken some
actions like the co‑op HomeStart Program which at one time it was grants
and then it was converted into loans. I
am concerned in terms of the commitment.
I would ask the current minister, what is his commitment to housing co‑ops?
Mr. Ernst: Beyond 1993, Madam Chair, we have no program.
Basically speaking, whether it is co‑op managed or not, most of the
units, if not all of them, fall under our nonprofit fully subsidized housing
program. Those that were started under
the Co‑operative HomeStart program in the past, many of those are now
being converted to the nonprofit housing program because they cannot make it on
their own. That is not to say we do not
have some success stories. There are
some. Weston co‑op, referred to
earlier today, is a good example. They
manage their affairs quite well and manage to return cash payments to the
province. They make every effort to ensure I know about it, too. If I do not respond, thanking them very much,
I catch hell for it.
In fact, this year we will be using some
of our unit allocations to convert existing co‑ops into nonprofit fully
subsidized housing units because otherwise they are going to fail. It is not the be‑all and end‑all
by any stretch of the imagination. Where
you have the situation occur that it is a fully subsidized nonprofit housing
program, then it operates like every other nonprofit and within the guidelines
and financing commitments of CMHC and MHRC.
As I said earlier, we are not going to be
able to resolve the whole question of what we do in the future until at least
the day after tomorrow when we meet with the feds as to what they intend to do
come 1994. I do not think any province,
I do not care which one it is, will be able to go it on its own with respect to
the kind of levels of nonprofit, even at limited levels, that we have been
going to in recent time, given the fiscal restraints that all of us operate
under and are continually pressing every government.
We have to decide at some point what our
priorities are. If we are running a
vacancy rate, then we are not going to be able to provide necessarily the kinds
of units that all those seniors might want.
If they want to have good, decent, affordable housing, albeit a bachelor
unit, that is what they are going to have available to them from us. If they do not want ours, then they are going
to have to seek it in the private sector.
If the private sector can provide it at reasonable cost, terrific. That is who should be doing it, quite
frankly. I mean, why should the taxpayer
invest their money and run the risks of all of the vagaries of the housing market
when it can be provided by the private sector?
If it cannot, then that is where we come in, and that is where we are
providing housing for those people.
* (2050)
Who knows what the future is going to
bring, Madam Chair. I would not begin to
speculate at this point. We might have
some more information at some later time after having had the opportunity of
discussing this with our provincial and federal colleagues.
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chair, it is somewhat discouraging in
one sense that here I am standing and promoting the converting of nonprofit
housing into housing co‑ops, and the minister is telling me that co‑ops
are being converted into nonprofit housing.
I do believe that in any co‑op, and a housing co‑op in
particular, in order for it to be successful, you have to have some form of an
educational component to it.
I know of housing co‑ops that are‑‑not
in one sector of the city, but at least where I have visited over the last
while in four different sectors, or three, I should say, and a big concern is
that you have to have the residents, as I prefer to call them over tenants,
aware of what their rights are. A good
example of that can be found in many different co‑ops when you go and you
knock on one of the doors and you try to explain to them what it is a co‑op
is and how they can participate in the decision‑making process.
It is easy for us and myself to stand here
and talk about how wonderful co‑ops are and how they should be able to
work. You know, a well‑run co‑op
should be able to outdo the Manitoba Housing Authority that manages thousands
of housing units. When, in fact, you
have a group, a relatively small group, depending on the unit, if it is Weston‑‑he
made reference to Weston. Well, Weston
is a relatively small number compared to the United Housing Co‑op which
is a significant size of a housing co‑op. That is the reason why I have
some concerns.
I mentioned knocking on the doors. This is one in which I feel that you have to
have some form of an educational component.
If the minister was wanting to stop the conversion of housing co‑ops
into the Manitoba Housing Authority nonprofit housing units, then I believe the
department has to take more of a proactive role in it. That does not necessarily mean that it has to
cost great sums of dollars, because in many cases‑‑and I have seen
the brochure. It is a wonderful
brochure. It talks about housing co‑ops
and, again, how wonderful they are and so forth.
But with my experience with housing co‑ops
what has happened in the past is you find that a co‑op is created, there
are annual general meetings that are called.
You do not necessarily get a high percentage of individuals even showing
up for the annual general meetings, because in some cases they do not even
realize the benefits of a co‑op over an apartment, whether it is private
sector or government sponsored.
I would ask the minister, what is this
government or what is the Department of Housing doing to educate individuals
that are going into housing co‑ops?
Mr. Ernst: In terms of the education process, the co‑operative
housing association of
The new stock, by and large, is not direct
owned and managed. For the most part, it
is done by sponsor managers or sponsor owners and managers. We have every year and a half or so, over the
past while at least anyway, a proposal call.
I think I talked earlier with the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.
Doer). We got 50 or so proposals coming
in. We can maybe deal with six or eight
of them. They are all sponsor managed or
sponsor owned and managed projects.
We do not build any direct kind of units
anymore in terms of our general program in
So, we may have approved the Riverborne co‑op. For instance, we just opened their project
last week on
You know, the true test of a co‑op,
and I have one in my constituency, the Westboine co‑op, where in fact
they put up the equity and they run the project. We have a few rent supplement units in there,
I understand, but beyond that it is run as a true co‑op.
The problem is we have some of those true
co‑ops that are out there. Even
with the rent supplement units, they are not sufficient to have it operate in
the black. So we will be converting some
of those this year into fully subsidized non‑profit units in order to
make them viable. As I say, heavy
subsidies do not create a lot of warm feeling in there, that all of a sudden co‑op
management is better than the Manitoba Housing Authority.
I take some exception to the comments of
the member that the Manitoba Housing Authority does not do a good job. I think we have some very dedicated staff
there, many of them with long, long years of service to the provincial
government. I take some exception that
they cannot do a good job. They can do a
good job. They do a good job, and I can
be very complimentary of the efforts that the staff perform‑‑nobody's
perfect; everybody makes mistakes‑‑but, by and large, they do do
quite a good job.
I should also point out to the member that
notwithstanding the great abilities of co‑ops to manage their own
affairs, some of them, many of them, hire a management company to run the
affairs. They say there is a co‑op
board meeting once a month to decide, you know, some general policy issues, but
the day‑to‑day management is conducted by a management company,
private sector for profit management company, and including some of the
successful ones, I might add.
I think, for instance, the Weston co‑op
hires Murdoch Management Inc., which is a private sector company to manage the
units on their account. Again, there are
a lot of issues and matters that surround these kinds of management situations,
but you know, we are prepared, we are flexible, we do try and deal.
We just opened a new co‑op not long
ago with the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), Westminster Housing Co‑op,
which is, I think, from all reports at least anyway, quite successful,
operating well and a beautiful place.
You take a look at the units in there, you would not mind living in
there yourself. I have to question
sometimes some of the modesty guidelines that are allegedly around with respect
to some of these housing units, and I have to ask myself where are they in
terms of the modesty guidelines.
Again, when you look at the building code
today and what is required and so on, minimum room sizes, minimum standards for
all kinds of things, then you have to provide to the building code, and when
you do, that is what you get. So
notwithstanding the fact that modesty is a bit of a watchword certainly when
you are dealing with social housing, at the same time you have to meet the
qualifications and safety requirements of the building code.
So, Madam Chair, that is my comment with
respect to that, and I thank the member for his opinions.
* (2100)
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chairperson, one could cite a number of
different housing co‑ops, whether it is Carpathia, Willow Park, which I
believe is the oldest co‑op at least in Canada and possibly even North
America, or whether it was Filcasa, another housing co‑op that was
mentioned. I guess I look at the
principle of co‑op housing versus government‑sponsored nonprofit
housing units, and I believe that there is more merit, and it is not to say the
individuals involved at Manitoba Housing Authority are doing a poor job. I am not saying that at all. I just believe that there is more merit to
expand in the housing co‑ops where we can, and that government could and
should take a much more proactive approach at doing that.
By doing that I would emphasize that there
has to be a significant educational component in order for any housing co‑op
to work, whether it is sitting down with the board and providing information,
those little brochures that the Department of Housing has‑‑at least
if they still have them. I assume that
they still have them. I am not too sure.
Madam Chairperson, I was wanting to
comment on the United Housing Co‑op in particular because it is a co‑op
that is in my riding, and I understand that there is‑‑actually
United Housing Co‑op is on
Mr. Ernst: This is quite a complex situation because you
are dealing with housing programs of various vintages and so on like that under
different rules and regulations. You
know, the fact of the matter is if it is owned by United Housing Co‑op it
is owned by United Housing Co‑op.
It is no different than being owned by the member for
Mr. Lamoureux: I am talking strictly with the
Mr. Ernst: I suspect, Madam Chair, that dependent upon
what their by‑laws say, I do not know what their rights are in terms of a
co‑operative to dispose of property, they may not have any right to dispose
of property, in which case we may have to seek some other kind of
solution. If they have the right to
dispose of property, then seemingly they could sell one of their projects to
another co‑op, a newly formed co‑op. They could simply form a United Housing Co‑op
(1993) Limited, sell one of the projects to them, and then the United Housing
Co‑Op retains the balance, the other property.
I do not know, as I say, these are quite
complex and certainly not the matter for any exhaustive discussion here. If they have a proposal, they have a concern,
let them can come in and talk to us. We
would be happy to talk to them and see what we could do to resolve the problem.
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chairperson, I will encourage them to
actually get in contact with the minister's office or Manitoba Housing
Authority. Who should they get in
contact with specifically?
Mr. Ernst: Just have them contact my office.
Mr. Lamoureux: Just have them contact your office. I want to move on to the infill housing
program, and get from the government what their current policy is on infill
housing.
Mr. Ernst: Madam Chair, I should tell the member, perhaps
he is not aware that we have not operated an infill housing program for two or
three years simply on the basis that it did not work. A lot of these things look terrific on paper,
but when it comes down to the nitty‑gritty of putting a $50,000 or
$60,000 house into a neighbourhood with taxes and mortgage payments and all of
those kinds of things that are associated with it, minimal down payments, they
were failing.
We were getting them back on a regular
basis because people could not afford to live in them, either that or the
subsidies were so high that they were not the best use of the public dollar in
terms of providing housing. Nice to do,
but too expensive. You can provide more housing by using the dollars better in
nonprofit or some other kind of program.
During the dying stages of the Core Area
Initiative, a number of units were purchased in the Weston area by the Neighbourhood
Improvement group in that area, I think in conjunction with, it is either Core
or under the Neighbourhood Improvement, one of the two in any event.
A number of those units have been used by
the Weston co‑op to provide co‑op housing units, and we have just
given them another allocation of units or in the process. In 1992 we gave them another allocation of
units to build on some further additional land there. The balance of the lots, I think there were
about nine, we put them out to tender last year to the private sector and said,
what would you give us for these lots, your undertaking to build modest homes
on these lots for sale to the general public?
We got one bid, only one. Pace, Greentree Homes, as a matter of fact, the
principal of which is the chair also I believe of the Winnipeg Rehab Housing
Corporation, and who is I think probably as familiar as anybody in the
development industry today or home‑building industry today for what is
required in these kinds of units.
* (2110)
So on the basis that we provide the land
just about for nothing, we are going to see whether that works. If it does, then terrific. Somebody is going to have a nice home at a cost
they can afford, and the neighbourhood is going to be improved by virtue of the
house being there. If it does not work,
well, we will try again, but that is where we are, at the present time.
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chairperson, I was wanting to pick up
from where the minister left off in terms of some of the benefits. Yes, there
is the most obvious, there is a cost to putting up an infill housing. What you are actually having to do is to
subsidize the removal of the house in cases where there is a dilapidated house,
and there is also a cost in terms of potentially having to subsidize some of
the products or labour in order to be able to bring the cost of that house at a
market value so that the house could in fact be sold.
I have seen the results of many of the
different infill houses that were put in prior to this government when it was
first elected.
In fact, I had asked the then Minister of
Housing how many infill houses had been put up in one fiscal year, and he had
indicated that there was going to be zero.
Well, actually, I am the one that suggested that it would be zero, and
he later came along and agreed, but said not to worry, that in fact there would
be 10 infill houses coming up in the next fiscal year. I do not think that any of those houses ever
did materialize, that in fact since this government has been in office that we
have not ever seen an infill house put up under the old program that the NDP
had put in.
That is somewhat discouraging. The minister said, well, the program did not
work, and I would be interested in knowing why it is that this program did not
work for the government.
There were many different benefits. If you take a drive, whether it is down
Alexander or other streets in the city of
These are the areas which I think will
really lose out, because if it is not feasible for government to be able to go
in in some cases, we know only full well that it is not going to be feasible
for the private sector to do it. In many
cases, whether it is infill, whether it is other renovation programs, what ends
up happening is that these houses then are occupied by landlords. Many call them slum landlords, and they will
rent out the properties. Other houses
are in fact condemned and there is no one that lives in them. It turns out to be an eyesore which does not
do anything in terms of the betterment of the community.
Having taken at least one urban studies
course from Professor Leo, you learn a lot about the importance of revitalizing
your older neighbourhoods, because if you do not do that, ultimately the cost
of bringing them back to life can be substantially more. I do not believe that the government, in
particular, not only this minister but the former minister, since this
government has been put into office‑‑that they did not necessarily
give the infill housing program a fair chance, they did not even build one
home.
I would have been much happier to have
heard from the minister that here are the reasons why we have decided to cancel
that program and have no intentions on bringing it back in and list some
reasons. I am sure the Minister of
Housing could be even somewhat creative in his thinking by commenting in terms
of Habitat for Humanity as possibly filling in the gap, whether it is
contributions or providing some of the lots at virtually no cost, whatever it
might be.
This is what one would think that the
minister in fact would have given in terms of a response other than just to
stand up and say, well, the program did not work and that is the reason why it
is not around. The problem is still
there. There are areas throughout the
province that need to be revitalized.
One of the ways of doing that is to provide programs such as the infill
housing program. Even though it might be
easy for government to cut, there is still somewhat of an onus, especially
being Minister of Urban Affairs also, to come up with something that would at
least address the problems of urban revitalization and the lack thereof.
The next line of questions I was wanting
to move into, I think, go hand in hand with the infill housing program and
other programs that have been cut. The
minister responded to this by saying, well, we have a housing program, a
rehabilitation program. What I am
referring to is the Residential Rehabilitation Assistance Program for
residents, and I am interested in knowing what it is that this minister did,
because I understand and appreciate that it is federal dollars, but it did go
through the City of
We had literally millions of dollars that
was being spent, of public dollars that was being spent, on renovating, again,
on assisting in revitalizing some of these older areas, and the government did
nothing, Madam Chairperson. At least I
am not aware of anything that the current Minister of Housing did to protest
the cuts or to supplement them. Even if
you put it into an economic perspective of when it is that government should be
spending money is in times of recession to help create jobs, well, programs
such as RRAP provide, you know, a significant number of jobs. These are construction jobs and so
forth. So there are economic
benefits. There are urban revitalization
benefits, and as I say, this is one of the areas in which
So I would like to know from the Minister
of Housing in terms of what is it that the Minister of Housing has done with
respect to the cutbacks of the Residential Rehabilitation Assistance Program.
Mr. Ernst: Madam Chairperson, the question was so long I
forgot what it was all about. The member
rattled on and on for about five minutes, and I hardly expect anybody to
remember most of the drivel that he put on the record.
* (2120)
What I should have said, Madam
Chairperson, is, pardon, or excuse me, would you repeat the question. However, with respect to the RRAP program, it
is not terminated. The RRAP program is
still functioning, but it is a federal government program, and we do not
control that. The federal government controls
it. If we finish at some point the
Estimates of the Department of Housing, we will be meeting, starting tomorrow,
with my federal, provincial and territorial counterparts to discuss the
question of the government's withdrawal from a number of these programs, not
just the Residential Rehabilitation Program, but the whole nonprofit housing
program, the whole 35‑year commitment program that is going to have
significant impacts on Canadians coast to coast.
These are issues of great import, and I
want to ensure that these are‑‑along with my federal counterpart or
the co‑chairs of this meeting over the next couple of days here in
I want to make a comment the member made
earlier with respect to the Charlottetown accord and the fact that they warned
everybody under the Charlottetown accord this is what would happen if provinces
assumed responsibility. The tacit
responsibility is in the hands of the provinces right across this country. The tacit responsibility is in the hands of
the territories, Madam Chair.
Who do you think runs the housing
programs? It is not CMHC. CMHC is the
major funder, by and large, and they do run some programs, but provinces,
historically, for a long period of time have run most, if not all, of the
social housing programs in the country.
So that while they may have been run, they are still funded and would
have been funded similarly under the
Does it matter one way or another who runs
it, as long as you have common sense in terms of focus? I mean we have situations now where the
federal government, through their arm of the Manitoba Metis Federation, are
building units in rural communities across the street from our units, units
that they are 75 percent funding, and the tenants move from our units into
their units and leave our units vacant.
That kind of thing that when the public
looks upon that and says, my God, what is the matter? Can you not get your act together? Is somebody not responsible? Do you not have a common delivery
mechanism? Well, in certain
circumstances that has occurred. That is
what lends a bad name in a lot of cases to the whole government types of
operations, whether they are delivered through an agency or whether they are
delivered directly by a government department.
So in terms of consolidating delivery,
there is no question that one party should be delivering those units. Can you tell me why we need to have on one
side of the street in Altona a provincially managed senior citizens' housing
block and on the other side of the street in Altona, a CMHC administered senior
citizens' housing block? It does not
make sense. You have got two management
systems, two caretakers, two of everything, when you in fact could have had one
common management system there with some considerable savings to the operation
of both.
But because that is not the case and there
were jurisdictional difficulties and so on, it was the intent I think of First
Ministers to come together and say, look, let us cut out a lot of this stuff
and let us put it together and let us put jurisdiction in the hands of the
provinces who are delivering it and know local concerns and problems and how to
deal with them.
(Mr. Ben Sveinson, Acting Chairperson, in
the Chair)
Put it in the hands of the provinces
because they are best able to deal with it and let CMHC continue its funding role,
continue its policy management role, continue its research mechanism which is
not an unimportant role from CMHC's perspective and from ours. Because the CMHC on a regular basis‑‑for
instance, they have in conjunction with the federal department of Energy funded
the advance house to look at new ways and means of dealing with new techniques,
new construction techniques, new technologies in dealing with new housing
stock.
The fact of the matter is no one can
afford the first one off unit, but over time, once those kinds of technologies
are mass produced and come down in cost, there will be a benefit to the
homeowning public, particularly in our harsh climate. We are ideally situated to deal with those
kinds of technologies and to research.
As a matter of fact, our homebuilders association here in
I am very pleased that we have that
research because, quite frankly, the energy consumption, the comfort of
citizens, any number of benefits resulting from the kind of technologies that
have been put into place in recent time are of benefit to an awful lot of
people and have saved them an awful lot of money in their housing costs. We have a role for CMHC to play in that
regard as well.
The fact of the matter is though that on
the ground in the province, the provincial governments are those best able, in
terms of housing, to try and meet the overall needs of provincial
residents. So, under the
The whole question of urban affairs was a
joke. The federal government has not had
an urban affairs department since the mid‑'70s. I think Andre Ouellet was minister
responsible for Urban Affairs in the federal government for a short period of
time and then did not do anything to speak of after that. I do not think he did anything when he was
there either, as far as my recollection goes.
However, with respect to the RRAP program,
we will be discussing that along with other issues. I can also tell the member that last year
when cutbacks were looming on the horizon and so on, I and all of my federal‑provincial
colleagues‑‑I did raise those issues with the federal
government. I did write on behalf of the
province expressing our concerns over the reductions in CMHC allocations and
made our case that we did not approve, and we did not agree with what the
federal government was doing and tried to express the need, concern and demand.
I mean, we have for any number of years
placed demands on the record with respect to landlord RRAP. We see a very significant role for landlord
RRAP in the
We have a problem we can deal with if we
get landlord RRAP. We have a number of older buildings that can renovated, can
be put into better condition, if the owners had an opportunity to deal with
landlord RRAP or something along that line.
I do not care even what they call it, as
long as the net benefit is for those private buildings, because that is where
most of the people live are in private buildings, notwithstanding the fact that
we have all kinds of social housing units. We are not anywhere close to touching the
surface of housing units for everyone in
But we see an opportunity for landlord
RRAP. Certainly they would be able to
extend the life of a number of buildings where a lot of low‑income people
live. It would improve their living
conditions dramatically at not very much cost.
Because we think landlord RRAP, providing the benefit to the landlord,
would also provide an element of rent control that would not allow them to pass
those costs that are being picked up by the RRAP program through to the tenant.
So I think there are benefits for
everybody all around on a landlord‑RRAP kind of situation. That is something that I will also be raising
tomorrow and the next day with my colleagues from across
So there are number of ways of dealing
with these issues, whether they are the existing program or other types of
programs. We are hopeful that the
federal government, if they are not prepared to continue historically what they
have done, they are at least going to be able to provide some alternatives.
If they are not, we will certainly be
making our views known. If they are not,
and our views, collectively as ministers from across
* (2130)
Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I would like to put it
somewhat into perspective when the minister made reference to the Charlottetown
accord and what type of an impact that would have had and which used the
example of RRAP. Under current
constitution and jurisdictional powers, nothing prevents the federal government
from bringing in a program of that nature. The provinces cannot do anything
about it if the federal government brings it in. Had the
The difference is, of course, that the
province then has the right to say, no, we will have that program similar to
nature, and we will just take the money.
If you take the money away from any level of government and you tell
them that you are going to be the one that will be administering the program,
what are you saying? You are telling the
federal government to raise the taxes to provide you the money so that you can
provide a service, so you can get credit for the service. In some ways, that is the way that it works
now.
I would argue, what would happen is that
you would not have a national government that would want to come up with a
program of this nature if in fact the Charlottetown accord had passed, for the
simple reason that they would not get any credit for it, because what would
happen is that those provinces that had the wealth would take advantage of the
situation. RRAP is an excellent example
because, as I say, we have likely benefited more from RRAP, landlord and
residential, than any other province, once you base it on a per capita. So maybe that might help the Minister of
Housing get a better understanding why it is that maybe it was not a good thing
that the province take full jurisdiction and responsibility of housing, because
that is just one example.
The minister said that the RRAP program is
still there. Well, the landlord has been cancelled, that aspect of RRAP, two
years ago. It has been phased down. In fact, I believe, earlier this year, at
least two inspectors were laid off. It is
definitely being downsized, and I do not see too much of a future for it. I am glad to hear that the minister at least
indicated that he did send some form of correspondence opposing what it is that
the government was doing. I would be
disappointed, I must admit, if he did anything less than that, because I do not
think it cost them much, other than 34 cents or 43 cents, whatever it costs to
mail a letter. (interjection) That is right.
When you mail to a member of Parliament, it is for free.
But, Mr. Acting Chairperson, we would like
to see in terms of how is the provincial government going to respond to it, and
if you take a look, the program that we have that is out there that is closest
to the RRAP is the Emergency Home Repair Program. The Estimates of Expenditure for that '92‑93
were $500,000 and now it has been reduced to $400,000. Again, what we have is programs, whether it
is infill housing, whether it is the Emergency Home Repair Program, whether it
is RRAP for landlords or residents, the Core Agreement, we have programs that
are being cancelled and nothing is being put in their place.
What is going to happen to the areas that
at least four or five years ago were able to go to programs that government at
different levels had in place, especially individuals that were community‑minded
and were wanting to be able to bring those programs into their particular
community to get it more revitalized, to change the atmosphere? What are we saying to those individuals?
These, I would argue, are not positive
steps. The minister himself cannot say,
well, we will make these cuts and it is going to save money. (interjection)
Well, if you have no more emergencies you will not‑‑(interjection)
Well, maybe what I will do then is ask the minister why it is they had the cuts
in that particular program. Was it
because of a lack of demand?
Mr. Ernst: Mr. Acting Chairperson, let me say first of
all that with respect to his earlier comments about Housing and the
Charlottetown accord and whether or not devolution to the provinces of powers
would have been beneficial or not, I heard the member say that in the case of
himself and the Liberal Party, as a federal government they would not want to
contribute to these kinds of programs because they did not get any credit for
it.
I would hope, certainly I know from our
party, that is not the case. We would
not be anywhere near to that kind of thing. We have the interests of Canadians
at heart, not the interests of our self‑serving political masters here
that need to have credit for something before they are prepared to do it. I mean, that is absolutely ridiculous. I cannot speak for the other major political
party, but I can certainly say from our perspective that we deal with it
because Canadians need and desire and want a particular program or service and
that we can afford to deal with it rather than trying to look for cheap
political credit for these kinds of things.
It has been very obvious, Mr. Acting
Chair, that we have been able to deliver programs provincially to deal with
these kinds of issues and that there has not been a problem. CMHC has been very co‑operative and
they are able to deal with it on a federal‑provincial basis without any
difficulty whatsoever, not necessarily looking for‑‑
An Honourable Member: You always see them cutting ribbons.
Mr. Ernst: Well, when you are paying for 75 percent of
the cost, Mr. Acting Chairperson, I think they are entitled to cut the
ribbon. I would think that they are more
than entitled to cut the ribbon when you are paying 75 percent of the cost, but
they did not provide the money in the first place to get cheap political
brownie points as the member for
The Acting Chairperson
(Mr. Sveinson): Order, please. I am having trouble hearing the minister's
answer.
Mr. Ernst: We have another rather inane statement made by
the member for
Something happens, your furnace goes out,
it is 30 below zero. What do you
do? You say, no, we are cutting back, we
are not going to do it. If you have an
Emergency Home Repair Program, you deal with emergencies. It does not matter what the costs. You estimate in your budget process
approximately how much you are going to spend, how much you think you are going
to need.
The fact of the matter is, if you have a
program, then you have money available to fix it. If it exceeds your budget estimate or is less
than your budget estimate‑‑we are accused in other departments by
the Liberals of underspending; you are underspending your budget. I would think that the job of any government
is to try to spend the least amount of the taxpayers' money as possible, but
not according to them, that is wrong. We
should spend every dime.
* (2140)
If you have an emergency, then you should
deal with that, too, but you should not run a deficit and you should not go
over your budget. So, Mr. Acting
Chairperson, how are you going to deal with it?
These are inane statements being made by the member for
But the fact of the matter is, if Mrs.
Brown has a furnace that fails at 30 below zero and has to have it repaired,
then we will repair it. We are not going
to see anybody freeze to death. We are
not going to see anybody forced out of their home as a result of those kinds of
circumstances. That is why you have the
program in the first place. That is why
the Emergency Home Repair Program is there, to try and address those kinds of
circumstances, to try and deal with them.
People who are stuck in a situation, cannot afford to deal with it
themselves, and that is what we will do.
We will look after them. We will
foot the bill for those kinds of circumstances.
Our best estimate in this circumstance for 1993‑94 is
$400,000. We do not expect to spend any
more than that, but if we have to, we will.
(Madam Chairperson in the Chair)
Mr. Lamoureux: Well, first of all, Madam Chairperson, let me
address the question. The minister was
attempting to put words in my mouth in terms of the Liberals versus the
Conservatives in
If the Minister of Urban Affairs really
believes that, I have got a lot of swampland that I would like to sell
him. It is absolutely ridiculous to even
think that the Minister of Urban Affairs believes that his statements are in
fact anywhere close to being accurate.
He talks about the Emergency Home Repair
Program, and he made a commitment that the monies would be there. If in fact there is more of a demand on the
Emergency Home Program, money would be there.
I would like to get a listing of the criteria and what is being provided
through the Emergency Home Program, because in the past we have seen that
program being narrowed down. At one
time, you were able to get more work out of that particular program under a
different name, but the criteria changed.
So I would like today to get a list of the criteria and what you are
able to get done in your houses so that I know a year from now, because of what
the minister just finished saying on the record, I am anticipating that anyone
that has those problems is going to be taken care of, because he says that he
is meeting the demand.
I do not believe that the minister is
meeting the demand, Madam Chairperson, and that is why I would like to see the
criteria and would ask the Minister of Housing if he would supply for us this
evening the criteria and what qualifies an individual to be able to be a
recipient under this particular program‑‑windows; roofing; the
minister mentions furnaces, I would expect at the very least that the furnaces
would be covered on it; but there were other things, electrical wiring. Is that all acceptable too?
I believe it is very important that the
Minister of Housing indicate to the Chamber what it is this evening, for the
simple reason I want to be able to come back and congratulate the Minister of
Housing next year on being able to meet the demand; but if the minister is
unable to meet the demand, I think that he owes this Chamber an apology.
Mr. Ernst: Madam Chairperson, as I indicated, the
Emergency Home Repair Program, I think, is self‑explanatory. If you have an emergency, you have to deal
with it. The question what is available
and what the program criteria are, what we will cover and so on, I do not have
the specifics here. I will provide them
to the member at a later time.
Madam Chair, I think it makes common sense
to say that you are not going to see anybody thrown out of their home as a
result of an emergency they cannot deal with themselves from their own
financial point of view. We will attempt
to deal with that as best we can under the program. I look forward to the member's
congratulations next year, but I am not holding my breath.
Mr. Lamoureux: Well, all the minister will have to do is to
point it out in Hansard, as I am sure he might.
If I am proven to be wrong on this, as I am sure that if I find that
there are individuals that are not receiving the benefits under this particular
program, as I say, I would ask for the minister to receive those because I do
get a number of calls in particular from former inspectors under the RRAP
program that are concerned what is going to be made available for individuals
that need to upgrade, because they are going to have worse problems in the not
too distant future.
So I think it is imperative that we find
out, and let us hope that the government does not start changing the criteria
and the guidelines in terms of what is being deemed as an emergency home
repair. A furnace is the most obvious. I made reference to wires, electrical
wiring. Is that not, Madam Chairperson,
a part of the emergency home repair, if it could cause a fire and so forth?
Madam Chairperson, I was wanting to move
along to our shelter allowance programs.
I can recall a study that was done by the
I am wondering if the minister can
indicate to us, does he have any idea in terms of what or how this particular
program is meeting demands that are out there?
Have there been any changes in the thresholds?
Mr. Ernst: Madam Chairperson, under both programs the
caseload is relatively stable. There is
some considerable turnover, but the overall numbers are relatively stable. Benefits range from, in the case of seniors,
about $100 per month approximately; in families, about $130 or
thereabouts. There are circumstances
that will alter those numbers somewhat, but those are kind of general averages.
In terms of program availability, of
course, just about every government department, social assistance, Family
Services, senior services, the Manitoba Society of Seniors, seniors' magazines
and newspapers and so on all carry information, and from time to time, ads with
respect to the availability of these programs. There is a limited target market
for them. You know, there may well be,
if we beat the bushes‑‑
An Honourable Member: Kevvie wants to shut down some hospitals in
rural
Mr. Ernst: We should talk about that then. I think we should have an emergency debate on
it right now, as a matter of fact, to deal with this issue because he cannot
have that. I certainly would not want to
advance or espouse the recommendation of the member for
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Madam Chairperson: Order, please.
Mr. Ernst: With respect to the SAFER and SAFFR programs,
as I said, the caseload is relatively stable.
We do not advertise daily in the Winnipeg Free Press, in the
* (2150)
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chairperson, can the minister indicate when
the last time the threshold and the maximum allowed under the program was in
fact indexed to the cost of living, let us say?
I know at one point, the then‑minister when I was the Housing
critic had indicated that it was not going to be indexed, and then about seven
months later, it was in fact indexed, I like to believe because of public
pressure. I am wondering if this current
minister has been looking at the whole question of indexing?
Mr. Ernst: July 1992.
Madam Chairperson: Item 1.(b) Executive Support (1) Salaries
$306,600‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $114,600‑‑pass.
(c) Finance and Operations (1) Salaries
$1,883,700‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $606,800‑‑pass.
Item 2. Program Development and Support
(a) Administration (1) Salaries $130,200‑‑pass; (2) Other
Expenditures $33,200‑‑pass.
(b) Research and Planning (1) Salaries
$236,900‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $70,100‑‑pass.
(c) Program Monitoring (1) Salaries
$245,700‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $408,800‑‑pass.
(d) Project Management (1) Salaries
$661,100‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $139,000‑‑pass.
(e) Client Services (1) Salaries
$1,042,100‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $935,600‑‑pass.
Resolution 30.2: RESOLVED that there by granted to Her Majesty
a sum not exceeding $3,902,700 for Housing, Program Development and Support,
for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1994.
Mr. Lamoureux: I am wondering if we should be dealing with
the ministerial salary.
Madam Chairperson: No, the very last item that we deal with after
all other resolutions have been passed is the Minister's Salary. We revert back to that after passing all
other items and sections.
Item 3. The
(b) Grants and Subsidies $6,801,800‑‑pass.
(c) Emergency Home Repair Program $400,000‑‑pass.
Resolution 30.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty
a sum not exceeding $43,025,700 for Housing, The Manitoba Housing and Renewal
Corporation, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1994.
Item 4. Expenditures Related to Capital‑‑no
amounts identified.
At this time, I would ask the minister's
staff to please leave the Chamber.
Hon. Glen Cummings
(Minister of Environment): We have just gone
through a department where some $43 million is being spent. An awful lot of it is dollars in support of
public housing. We have had a lot of
questions from the opposition regarding some of the assistance that we
provide. I do not think I saw or heard
anywhere in the discussion where there was some genuine effort made by the
opposition to take a look at some of the other imaginative things that this
department has been looking at.
I would like to hear what the success rate
has been on some of the projects where private funding combined with public
sector funding has been used to provide some new and very reasonable funding
for some people in rural
Well, when we are talking about
alternative housing, there has to be a full spectrum of housing for the citizens
of rural
Perhaps he is following the lead of his
previous leader who was prone to talk about throwing the seniors out of the‑‑what
was that comment? Half of them did not
need to be in seniors residences anyway, I think that was the infamous comment
that they made in Minnedosa.
Madam Chairperson, there is a project in
my home community of which I am very proud, but one which very seldom gets
talked about or discussed. That is
related to a project driven by a local Elks benevolent organization, what is a
combination of public housing and housing that has a lifetime lease, where
people buy that existing lease with an up‑front deposit which goes toward
to the financing of the project and then gives them access, at a much reduced
rate, for the rest of their life, if they wish, because that is what it is, a
lifetime lease to a residence at a reduced or very modest rate of rent.
But one of the things that happens every
time we start talking about these projects, the problem that we have is that no
one wants to talk about the opportunity for the people to invest and, in this
case, bring the private investment community into the funding of these housing
projects. It seems to me that
They have undertaken to finance a number
of these projects. I think that the minister should be given an opportunity to
put on the record how it is in fact that they have contributed to this process
and how they have co‑operated with the province in bringing these
projects into fruition.
One of the biggest concerns that we have
is always borrowing money in the name of the province, whether it is dollars to
finance housing or whether it is dollars to finance highways, sooner or later
somebody has to be accountable for the debt.
*
(2200)
We now have seen some very interesting changes
in the way the public sector finances itself, and the way some of the private
sectors wanting to become involved in some public sector projects. The very existence of some projects, such as
the one that I have described, Madam Chair, probably owe their success to the
fact that the private sector, i.e., the credit union movement has come forward
and recognized that this is a contribution, and I would suggest a very positive
contribution that they have made to the community, and one in which their investors
can reap some rewards in terms of getting a stable and a reasonable cost
investment.
Their dollars that they are entrusted to
invest are in a project that I can virtually guarantee you is not going to go
under, because the residents will have that commitment to keeping it
going. They will have a commitment to
keeping their part of the payments up, the down payment is made up‑front
by those who buy the lifetime leases.
What we see is a very happy combination of
local dollars being invested through their credit union. People who wish to remain in their local
community with some dignity, be able to invest their own money in a lifetime
lease and combine that with some public‑sector dollars in which some of
the‑‑they are able to combine that with public‑sector suites
in the same building and everybody's costs are maintained at a reasonable
level, and we are able to maintain the communities.
I prefaced my comments by saying that this
was something that was applicable to rural
Madam Chairperson, these suites which
construction began in mid‑summer last year in the town of
Today, the common room is not quite
completed in the building, but people were so anxious to get into the building
that it is already full, all of the suites that are finished. People moved in
as quickly as the drywallers and the plasterers moved out. (interjection) Well,
one of my colleagues is asking what are the colours? Well, I can tell you hanging from the
balcony, we have almost got every colour of hanging rose blooming right
now. It is a real asset to the
Nevertheless, the bottom line in what I
would hope that the minister may be able to comment on in a moment or two is
whether or not how many of these projects have, in fact, been underway and how
he sees them breaking down in terms of future possibilities within the
province.
This seems to me as a very innovative way
to approach financing. We have a
combination of public and private approach to a problem, a problem that if an
approach such as this was not used, government would simply have to go back to
its own resources to finance or we would probably see some of these projects
not get off the ground.
Very often they are considered the type of
projects where a private investor may be unwilling to totally take the risk on
his own, so people are a little more willing to invest in what would be a
shared risk, i.e., a lifetime lease on these suites when they know that there
is government involvement in the initial planning stages, that there is
government involvement in the design and the structure of the plan. I do not mean the physical plan, I mean the
financial plan.
But ultimately, the private sector,
through the bank, whether it is the credit union or other private interests who
are prepared to invest their dollars, do then have some comfort all the way
around that this is, first of all, a safe place to invest, and secondly, as I
believe the case is going to be, an especially good place to spend retiring
years at a time when there is perhaps a tightening up of some of the
opportunities. Not everyone wishes to go to a seniors residence that may tend
to have a growing population of elderly that are now preparing for some kind of
nursing care.
Many people with early retirement wish to
get away from the burden of a house. You
do not need to be ready for retirement to do that. Depending on your level of income, depending
on whether or not you have an early retirement or a particular lifestyle in
mind, people are looking to these types of investments for their future living
opportunities.
That leads to the next question as to
whether or not there are some opportunities for more of these to open up. Whether it is in rural
The question that arises in rural Manitoba‑‑and
that is why I referenced the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) and his
comments about hospital beds in rural Manitoba, I am sure he would also want to
make some observations about whether or not there are vacancies in senior
citizens' homes and some of the other types of residences that we have out
there.
Maybe he should get out there, and while
during the campaign he probably was trying to make as many contacts as he could
across rural
Madam Chair, if the minister would provide
some information about where he sees this type of housing going or whether
there are any future possibilities on it, I have a couple of other questions
that I want to put to him.
Mr. Ernst: Madam Chairperson, again the question was so long,
I forget the start of the question, but I think I caught the gist of it. Before I get into the lengthy answer
associated with the lengthy question, I want to say to the honourable members
present here that the days of government being all things to all people on
borrowed money are over.
I do not care what political party you
belong to. I do not care what political
party you think you can dream up in the future that is going to do something
for the Government of Canada. The fact
of the matter is that we can no longer afford to carry on the kinds of things
that we have carried on in the past, borrowing money to do it. It is not on.
You only need to look at the newspapers to look at what is happening
elsewhere in the country. The fact that
Ontario under an NDP government, B.C. or Saskatchewan under an NDP government,
Newfoundland and other provinces, New Brunswick and so on under Liberal
governments, Alberta and Manitoba under Conservative governments‑‑the
fact of the matter is we can no longer afford it.
Our people are taxed beyond their ability
to pay today. We can no longer afford to
continue merrily on spending money, unlike members opposite from their
comfortable seats in opposition suggesting we ought to continue to provide more
money, simply provide more programs, more funding, do not raise the deficit, do
not raise taxes, but continue to provide more and more funding.
So you borrow the money and you have to
pay it back at some point. People have
to understand; I think the public understands that. I think they understand it only too
well. Now, it is up to us, Madam Chair,
to educate the members opposite of the same thing. The public have discovered it; they do not
want to pay any more taxes; and they are prepared to make choices with respect
to programs that we are going to be able to provide to them in the future. We are not going to be able to provide all
those things that are nice to have.
* (2210)
I have been on the Treasury Board in this
government since we came into office; I have been through six budgetary cycles,
as has my friend the member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings). The fact of the matter is we have sat day by
day, hour by hour, week after week, year after year, in terms of dealing with
the expenditures of government, programs that were implemented by other
governments in the past and by ours in the present.
The fact of the matter is, Madam Chair,
that there has not been a program that came across my desk at Treasury Board
that did not have some redeeming value, that was not of benefit to
someone. The fact of the matter is, we
cannot afford to do it all. You know, I
would like to drive a Cadillac, I would like to live in
And that is exactly what we have done with
respect to the question of the member for Ste. Rose. The fact of the matter is that we have had to
say: How can we provide benefits to a
community; how can we do that in the best way possible at the least cost; and
how can we do it on the basis of the kind of innovative programming that is so
important in this day and age?
People have often heard it; it is one of
the local occurring buzzwords in society today of spending smarter or being
innovative in terms of how you do things and so on. Well, that is, in fact, exactly what this
program did. It took a limited number of
fully subsidized units‑‑and those units have been shrinking over
the last five years. The federal
government has been reducing slowly its commitment across
The member was correct in saying that
people from Niverville kind of really gave spark to the idea, I think. That project never really got off the
ground. It is still not to where it was,
but I think it provided the spark or the initiative or the idea of how we could
deal a little more innovatively and a little smarter in terms of dealing with
this kind of housing program.
So we said, how can we piggyback a limited
number of designated units yet try and stimulate the construction of more
housing, particularly in rural Manitoba, although there is no exclusivity to
that, but particularly in rural Manitoba where there was a dearth of seniors
housing available for those who did not meet the low‑income guidelines,
those who were a little better off, those who had saved for their future, those
who had accumulated some wealth over a period of time and now want to invest it
in their declining years? How do we deal
with it?
We had what was called the Seniors'
RentalStart program. I am sure that the
member for
There were a number of projects built
around that, I think, half a dozen or so built on that basis, but it did not
address the need of low‑income people in a kind of a mixed‑use project.
We found a situation where historically in the past‑‑and God
forbid, we should never get involved in it again‑‑was the
development of projects like Inkster Park, or the development of projects like
Gilbert Park, that I would not ever like to see us build something like that
again.
I do not think it is fair to the tenants
and certainly not fair to the neighbourhoods, and I do not think it is fair to
an awful lot of people who are struggling to try and make something of their lives
to have a kind of large implant of transient individuals thrust into their
neighbourhood.
There is a stigma attached to that,
unfortunately, but people are what they are.
There is a stigma attached with living in that kind of a housing
project. The fact of the matter is, you
come from the low‑rentals; you are different from me. It may not make as big an impact in the
The fact of the matter is, the kid from
the private sector neighbourhood, suburban neighbourhood was able to spend a
hundred bucks on a pair of Tacks skates, but the child from the low‑income
neighbourhood was lucky to get a pair of second‑hand skates.
(interjection) This is a few years ago.
The distinction was very obvious, and it was sad, it really was
sad. That was again another kind of
major project.
Yet in that same neighbourhood, we had
another group of single‑family homes and duplexes that were integrated
into a neighbourhood and nobody knew who they were, where they came from. They knew that maybe they could not afford
some of the things that everybody else could afford and so on, but there really
was no stigma attached to that.
That is something that is so important I
think today, in terms of dealing with social housing projects and their impacts
on our communities, because we do not want people to look down upon their
neighbours, we do not want people to look down upon them and say they are some
kind of second‑class people. Maybe
they have not had the success that others have had, maybe they have not been
able to accummulate‑‑maybe they have had some problems associated
with how they have been able to live and so on.
We wanted to ensure that there was some
benefit, some way of melding those two communities together, because in the
case of Neepawa they live together in the community now. These people are not different people. They are the same people. They are just under a different housing
configuration. They are in a situation
where they were just living together in a different housing configuration than
was present previously. Some may have
lived on a farm. Some may have had a
house in town. Some may have had a
better house in town than the other guy, but the fact of the matter is they
live together in a community; they work together; they play together; they
socialize together, and so on.
Here is an opportunity now. If you had to put up $25,000 or $30,000 as a
down payment or a contribution towards equity under a life‑lease program,
all of a sudden somebody was excluded. Somebody did not have that opportunity
and they could now no longer live with their friends in their retirement years. They were not able to go into a situation
where maybe the fellow that had a house in town and had his equity built up and
was able to sell it and provide that contribution for a life‑lease
situation, all of a sudden now others who did not have that opportunity when
they lived in town are excluded.
We said, we have to try and work an
arrangement where all of those people can try and be accommodated in kind of a
common setting. So the Elks club of
Neepawa‑‑and I commend them for it, and particularly Jim Schmall
who is the driving force behind the project.
I understand he is now retired from his business. I do not doubt he probably wore himself out
in terms of trying to get this project off the ground.
The fact of the matter is that project put
on by the Elks is probably the landmark project for this kind of program. It was the first of this type of program,
Madam Chairperson. It was amazing,
because when I first met with them‑‑I guess it was in November of
'91‑‑we had a discussion and said, look, this is what we are going
to propose as a program for you.
We will provide you with 20 or 25 percent
of the units in the project as fully subsidized units. Those units will make their relative
contribution to the overall building toward the roof, toward the parking
structure, toward the heating system, toward the mechanical and all of those
kinds of things, as would any other unit, but the rest of the units you are
going to have to sell to private citizens in the community. You are going to have to take life‑lease
contributions and put that around the project and see if you can make it
work. We will provide you with those 20
or 25 or however many there are, fully subsidized units in the overall project.
* (2220)
But you are going to have to come up with
the life‑lease units. You are
going to have to come up with those contributions before we are going to go
ahead. We are going to say, we are not
going to finance it either, because governments going out and borrowing more
and more money all the time is making it difficult. We are prepared to enter into a negotiation
with financial institutions in the province, where the local financial
institution in the community has an opportunity now to put something back into their
community in terms of financing these kinds of projects, so we said, let us try
that. Let us go and see if it can be
done. What we will do is that we will
not guarantee it forever, the whole thing.
That is just not on anymore. As I
said earlier, we cannot afford to continue to do those kinds of things.
So we said to the financial institution,
what would it take? What do you want to finance this kind of project? Well, their biggest concern is the first few
years of operation. They said, really,
we have a concern that, if they do not get it sold out, or some of the people
do not like it, what do we do? They are
kind of stuck. People are afraid to get
in it once the stigma is attached to it, particularly in a small town. All of a sudden, oh, oh, we are in big
financial difficulty, and what happens if the farm economy turns this way, and
there are all kinds of issues.
We said, we understand those kinds of
issues; we face that collectively as government every day. Tell us what you want. Tell us what you think
you need to get involved in financing this kind of project. We negotiated and we came up with a solution
whereby we will guarantee 10 percent of the value of the mortgage for the first
three years, and if they are on a break‑even basis at that point, our
guarantee disappears. If not, we will
guarantee it for another three years.
But, at the end of that time, we are gone. You are on your own.
They thought, well, gosh, if it is not
going to go in five years, I guess it is going to be a pretty tough go. So they went out and the Elks‑‑bless
their hearts‑‑in Neepawa, said, okay, we are on, let us go. The financing was arranged locally in the
community, and the credit unions came forward.
They were really the first group to come forward. Credit Union Central in
It is really neighbours helping neighbours
on a co‑operative basis. The
neighbours who have invested their money in the credit union, having it
reinvested in the community to provide financing for a project that is of
significant benefit to the community. So
they embarked on a project of 50 units, probably the biggest single project in
Neepawa. I would guess‑‑
An Honourable Member: Were they all presold?
Mr. Ernst: Fifty‑‑well, we will get to that.
An Honourable Member: Oh, okay, sorry. I was not trying to rush you, Mr. Minister.
Mr. Ernst: But this is a significant‑‑you
know, we should not make light, Madam Chairperson, of this kind of project.
While the answer may be somewhat lengthy,
it needs to be said, because the contribution and efforts put forward by a
great many people in the town of
The fact of the matter is that we were
breaking new ground coming up with an innovative program, something that is
spending smarter, using all of the buzzwords that float around today in
political circles, is exactly what we have done.
So, in any event, what happened was the
Elks club in Neepawa said, okay, we are up to the challenge. I met with them in November of '91, they
said, yes, we will go for it. I think
not long after that they had a public meeting and they invited‑‑like
Nick Hill, they said, come on down. We
want to talk about this project. I think‑‑
Mr. Cummings: About 125 people showed up at that meeting.
Mr. Ernst: There was a significant number. I did not know the exact numbers that had
showed up for that meeting, but I think it was in the first night they sold
out. They had commitments from 30 or 40
people for how many units were available out of the total of 50 for market
purposes, but they sold out the first night which led some of us to say to
ourselves, holy cow. If this can sell
out in one night, where is the recession?
Where is the impact on the farm economy?
This is a farming community, but we knew that there were, on relative
terms, people there who had built equity over time. They had worked very hard over their
lifetimes to build the kind of equity that they could now invest in this kind
of project.
After some significant negotiations and
the finalization of the life‑lease programs and the financing and so on,
the sod was turned in the spring of '92.
Construction progressed through the summer. I visited the site on a couple of occasions
during the summer, because this was kind of the first, and I was concerned that
the project was going to be successful.
The member for Ste. Rose and Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings) has
indicated earlier this evening the kind of excitement that it has created in
the community, the benefit in the community.
It is a very significant landmark in the community, uniquely located
right on the highway and just a block or so from downtown; I think it will provide
for many years to come a very significant anchor for the senior citizens of
that community.
I am pleased that things have gone as well
as they have. I am a little perturbed
that it is not quite finished yet. I do
not know what the holdup there is. We
will have to investigate that tomorrow.
We are almost a year now, or well over, I guess, a year, in terms of the
start of construction so that it should have been completed by this point. There may have been some circumstances of
which I am not aware, so we want to make sure that everything is put into place
and is operating efficiently.
That was the pilot project for this kind
of innovative approach to try to deal with housing both from an eligible
senior's perspective in terms of low‑income housing and at the same time
dealing with the eligibility or need in a community for senior citizens who did
not qualify, who had income higher than was required under the low‑income
requirements for guaranteed income.
Having seen the success, potential success
of the project in Neepawa, the Royal Canadian Legion in Carman decided that
they wanted to proceed with a similar type of project. They looked around and had initially talked
about a Seniors RentalStart program, but saw the benefit of this kind of a
situation as well.
If you ever get a chance to go to that
charming community of Carman, 50 miles or so from
An Honourable Member: They will probably figure this is a
patronage speech.
Mr. Ernst: Well, maybe.
I will tell you that the Royal Canadian Legion in Carman has done again
an excellent job in terms of putting forward a project for the benefit of
seniors in that community. The member
for
The member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), I
believe, was the minister at the time responsible for and handled the Carman
diversion that will take the flood waters off the
In any event, it takes the potential flood
waters away from the town of
In any event, you are going to see this
project. It is absolutely a really,
really nice project because on one side of the
* (2230)
Anyway, what you have now is the housing
units on one side, 35 very attractive apartment units, and on the other side
you have the common room. Does that mean
now at 30 below zero you have to walk outside, or in the pouring rain do you
have to walk outside? No. What they have done is they have built a
bridge between the housing units across the
Interestingly enough, that bridge goes
somewhere, and it did not cost a lot of money, and it was built into the 35‑year
mortgage attached to the project. It is
closed in and weather protected so that now you have a situation where you have
virtually a river running through your living room or your family room.
You would find it tough to do better than
to retire in a community like that, I will tell you. That is a very nice community and one that is
going to benefit greatly from another innovative program implemented by this
government, this minister. And darn it,
I am proud of the project.
I mean, it is kind of an innovative and
neat kind of project and one I think that collectively we can all take some
credit in. The fact of the matter is
that we are doing something unique and different here.
I intend to speak to my colleagues, the
federal, provincial, territorial ministers, tomorrow or the next day when they
are here in
We are going to collectively have to do
these kinds of things if we are going to provide support and affordable housing
for people and trying to meet the needs not just of low‑income people but
of all people. Surely, a government is
not there simply for low‑income people, although that has been the major
focus of social housing, but the fact of the matter is the government should be
there for all the people.
If others who are a little better off need
some assistance sometime or need the arm of government to assist, not necessarily
to provide financial assistance but to provide some abilities to be able to
give some direction, some push, some stimulus, some way of getting something
moving as we have in this kind of a situation, then terrific. That is what we ought to be doing because
ultimately people know how to better spend their money far better than we
do. They know how to spend their money
much better than we do, and we ought to let them have that opportunity to spend
that money in a way that they think is beneficial for their own purposes and to
provide for their own retirement in a setting that is such a unique setting as,
for instance, the one I described in Carman.
But, Madam Chairperson, this program is
not just for rural
I mean, it is an extremely expensive
situation, and maybe they were undercapitalized at the start. Maybe they should have taken a little bit
bigger contribution from their tenants in order to maybe not face some of the
kind of financial situations that they have been facing, and we have been able
to assist them through the Elderly and Infirmed Persons' Housing program by
giving them some relief in terms of school taxes, which makes their bottom line
look considerably better than it did before that.
But the fact of the matter is that those
kinds of projects need to be addressed on a fair and reasonable
expectation. They should not go out and
try and undersell the project, to say that you only have to contribute a few
dollars towards this equity contribution.
Tell the people what they need to do.
Tell them what they need to spend in order to make the project viable
because in the long term that is in their best interest.
In the long term they have got to be able
to deal with‑‑and we have seen a situation in Stonewall where we
have had to go back to the people and say, we need some more contribution; we
need some more capital because you did not put in enough at the start.
That is tough to do, particularly when
people make life decisions based on how and where they are going to live and
what the cost is going to be over a 10‑ or 15‑ or 20‑year
period and then all of a sudden five years into the deal they have to change
dramatically what their contributions are going to be.
Nonetheless, we have seen‑‑and
the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid), I am sure that, if you ask him, he would
indicate the proposed success that is going to occur in Transcona. We had the sod turning just a couple of weeks
ago in Transcona for another similar kind of project where in this case I think
it is about a 50‑50 split between low‑income units and market
units.
Again, people from the community, people
who have lived there, again sponsored by the Royal Canadian Legion, and it may
be that many legionnaires will occupy the project ultimately. Some are better
off than others over a period of time; some have equity contributions built up
in their homes.
That is the beauty of this kind of
program. I can give you an example. In Fred Douglas Lodge, I believe it is,
either Fred Douglas or the Kiwanis Chateau, there is a lady from the west end,
a senior citizen whose husband has passed away and who was living in her own
home, a small, modest home in west Winnipeg. Living in this home, she had built
up an equity over their lifetime of living in that home of in the area of
$60,000 maybe, but she was existing on a CNR widow's pension. And everybody knows that CNR widows'
pensions, particularly in years past, were not great. I mean, they provided some pretty subsistence
levels, and that plus the old age pension gave her a kind of decent meager
living, but she had the equity in her home.
That equity in her home was costing her because she had to maintain it
and pay the taxes on it, and heat it, and provide the hydro, and all of the
other things. You have to do the yard
work and shovel the snow, and I mean there are all kinds of work associated
with these which, you know, gets tougher and tougher to do. I can tell you that, as I grow older, I find
it tougher and tougher to do around my own home.
Nonetheless, this widow lady said, you
know, I will take a flier. This was a
new kind of innovative program again.
Say, let us try it, and so she did.
She sold her home. I think she
got $60,000 or $65,000 for it, and the equity contribution, I think, was, at
that time, about 20 grand. I mean, not
really a lot of money in the overall scheme of things, but she put her $20,000
down toward this unit and said, this is what I want to do. So she took the $20,000, invested it in the
life‑lease arrangement, took the balance of her money and invested it in
some, I guess, guaranteed investment certificates or some income‑producing
instrument.
In any event, all of a sudden now she has
got more money than she knows what to do with.
She has still got her CNR pension. She does not have the expenses of her
house. She has got a very nice apartment
in downtown
So there is a benefit in it, and it is not
just people that have built up huge equities over time that have to spend
$150,000, $200,000 on a condominium here.
The fact of the matter is that they can contribute a small amount to get
the same kind of lifestyle, and the beauty of it is that at the end the money
is still available for their kids if they want to leave it to them. The money is not used up in the process. They are not getting any interest on it. I would not want to say too much about it,
but if the taxman does not catch them, they do get a tax benefit out of the
thing as well. So far the department of
eternal revenue has not come up with a way to attach it.
So the citizens of Transcona are going to
have the benefit of this kind of program as well, and the fact is that this
project, again, is sponsored by the Royal Canadian Legion in that
community. Interestingly enough, there
were two projects in Transcona vying for that kind of approval by the
government. They knew when I talked to both of them‑‑I said, two
are not on. I mean, we have very limited ability to deal with these kinds of
things, so it is highly unlikely that two projects in the same community are
going to get approved. One of you is on
a kind of life‑lease arrangement; the other one was on a fully subsidized
arrangement. I said, why? One was sponsored by the Kinsmen Club; one
was sponsored by the Legion. I said, why
do you guys not get together and kind of do one little bit bigger project maybe
where you kind of have a combination of both, to give you a kind of‑‑(interjection)
In any event, we have a situation now
where these two groups said, look, build yourself a little bit bigger project,
serve the community. You have an
integrated project again, so you have the opportunity where people can live
together in the same kind of environment and where there is no stigma attached
to the fact that you are living either in low‑income community or non‑low‑income
community.
You are living together in a communal
project in a community. You lived with
those people all your life there. You grew
up with them, you played sports with them, you did community work with them,
you went to the same church. Why the
heck should you not be able, in your retiring years, to live together in the
same kind of project without having some kind of a stigma attached to it?
* (2240)
That is what they did, and they are off
and running with that project. As I
said, the sod turned, I believe it was the 12th of June. I congratulate both the Kinsmen Club and the
legion in Transcona for the kind of work they have done, Madam Chair, again,
another, I think, distinct benefit and use of innovative programming in the
community.
Now that leads me to the fact that we are
going to have another one of these things come on stream, I hope. You are going to have another one of these
projects in my home community in Charleswood.
The Charleswood Legion is going to have one of these projects, as
well. Here is a group of people, and one
gentleman in particular, Earl Lins, has been the driving force behind that in
the legion in Transcona.
They are going to turn the sod, I gather,
sometime in August, and we will be off and running with a 60‑unit project
that, again, you have to understand the dynamics of Charleswood, because at the
end of World War II, there were 700 residents of the community of
Charleswood. Today, there is about
40,000, but what happened was, after World War II, the Veterans' Land Act
administration came along and said to people, if you want to have an acre of
land or two acres of land, go out into an area, and that is what happened.
It was populated and the initial growth in
Charleswood was populated by veterans coming back from World War II. That is where they took their piece of land,
built their home, raised their families and so on, and many, many of those
people still are resident in the community and now want to get out of their
homes because of the workload and their abilities to be able to carry on with
the maintenance and repairs and so on.
So, Madam Chair, they have been keen, I
think, to deal with a project like this.
Again, we are doing it on the basis of half designated units for people
of low income and half available for people who have some equity contribution
to make and who do not qualify for the low‑income requirements of that
program, so, again, the use of innovative programming in my community,
something I very much look forward to.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr. Cummings: Madam Chair, the minister has provided what
could be characterized as a complete answer to that rather lengthy question,
but the other question I am interested in hearing some response to is a
somewhat philosophical one.
A number of times when we talk about the
approach to public housing, trying to find some different ways to make sure
that people stay in the community, there seems to have been a preponderance of
effort over the years from previous administrations to believe it was not
proper public housing for the elderly unless it was put in place by the
government and had government blessing behind it.
In the days of establishing those
projects, there were significant construction benefits that went with having a
housing for the elderly constructed in your community. Whether it was a large or small project,
there was work for the local contractors.
Some of the larger projects saw some very significant bidding, but there
was a single‑mindedness, a purpose, almost, in my view, to the point of
rushing to show certain numbers and the percentage of housing being available
through the public process for the elderly.
I ran into a situation in Alonsa which I
think points to the kind of folly that can be associated with simply building
without really giving some thought to the demands that are in the
community. I do not for one minute suggest
that Alonsa did not need and should not continue to have public‑sector
housing.
One of the things that is associated with
the housing in this particular community is that the water in the community, in
most of the wells, is particularly bad.
When I hear the minister talk about the success and the anticipated
success of joint private‑public life‑lease projects, I am reminded
of this community, albeit with smaller challenges. There are situations where families, married
couples‑‑in some cases, widows or widowers living alone on
agricultural properties‑‑would be much better off moving into the
community and living in the public‑sector housing. In many cases, that is what they did. They
got rid of their farm or their farmhouse, and they moved to town. As it turned out, it was one of those public‑sector
housing projects where the total impact of living there was not very well
considered.
The water in many cases in these houses,
while not poisonous, certainly was not very conducive to being potable and
certainly was virtually impossible to use in any kind of a household
setting. It was hard, it had iron in it;
some of the wells, the water was just so aggressive, if you will, for lack of a
better term, that the plumbing, the hot water tanks and so on just simply would
not stand up. I learned that from
Environment. That is what they keep talking about, aggressive water. I still have not figured out exactly what it
means.
What happened in this situation was that
you ended up with these people being very badly surprised that their lifestyle
had not improved. In fact, it
deteriorated, because the original concept of simply putting housing in place
did not contemplate anything more than the fact they assumed everyone who would
want to go there was leaving some kind of second‑class housing in a rural
setting, and they would rush to the community or a larger centre to establish a
retirement home for themselves.
Some of them, and much to their dismay,
found that these housing units‑‑while the unit itself may be quite
desirable, it covers very few alternatives for the kind of amenities that they
needed in order to get by on day‑to‑day responsibilities. The simple washing of clothes would turn what
was a soiled garment into a brown one, if it was not turning a‑‑because
there was certainly not the equipment in the house to handle the hard water.
An Honourable Member: Dye job.
Mr. Cummings: That is right. My own shirts have had a taste of that, but
certainly nothing like this community was suffering. The point I want to make
is that, by having taken the risk‑‑and there was a significant risk
in looking at the kind of combination that we have had in these life leases,
associating them in the same building, in a configuration where they also were
shared with some of the public housing units.
By taking that risk and taking that initiative, it allowed the projects
to go ahead that do supply more of a complete response to the needs of those
who are looking for some reasonable level of housing without having to actually
increase or cause difficulties for their lifestyle.
* (2250)
In the particular case that I refer to, a
number of people actually moved back out again because the original concept of
putting the housing units there had not contemplated the problems with the
water. I think that over the last year
or so the problems have been rectified in these housing units.
That leads me to a question to the
minister of whether or not there are any significant number of vacant units,
not only in rural
It is my understanding that the demand
from the original concept of public housing, or at least the market, if you
will, has changed dramatically from some of the original construction concepts;
that people today are a little more discriminating and there are private‑sector
options they will choose if the public sector does not provide what they
believe is a suitable accommodation.
I do not, by that statement, imply that
people are picky or that people do not need public‑sector housing, that
there is not a role for public‑sector housing, but it seems to me that in
today's society this has changed dramatically.
For example, some of the construction which this department inherited
with some 20 years of age on it, all of a sudden this stock has not had the
value that was originally attributed to it.
In fact, the demand of the community is not there to even provide the
uptake in terms of leasing this stock and putting it to use.
I do not believe this question was asked
before, certainly not in my presence, and I wonder if the minister could expand
on what the nature of vacancies are and what it is that is driving those
potential vacancies or real vacancies.
Mr. Ernst: Madam Chairperson, before I get into the
response, I ran out of time at my last opportunity‑‑(interjection)
Well, these are important issues, and they have to be put on the record. It is important to respond to them. I wanted to make sure that I responded as
fully as I could to my colleague from Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings) because he
raised a very pertinent and significant question.
What I wanted to talk about was not so
much‑‑we talked a lot about the benefits to the tenants, both the
life‑lease tenants and the low‑income tenants, of those kinds of
projects under that innovative financing program. What we did not talk about was what the
impact was, and the minister raised it when he did speak in his second
question, the impact on the community.
Now it is not just a question of impact as far as the individual tenants
are concerned, but in fact a significant construction benefit on the community.
All of a sudden now, there are 50
apartments at about‑‑I do not know‑‑70,000 or 80,000
bucks a piece being built in a community.
So now you have these 50 new apartments that are providing I do not know
how many man‑years of work associated with their construction, but
certainly local contractors and subcontractors in the community, construction
labour and so on come along. All of the
spinoff benefits associated with those people who were supplying the materials,
both local and outside of the community, of providing significant construction
material, probably $2 million or $3 million worth of construction material for
this project, plus all the furnishings, plus whatever spinoff benefits the
tenants have in terms of their own purchases related to moving either from
their old homes into their new homes, plus, quite frankly, all of a sudden all
of those people who lived somewhere else before have freed up those units, and
they are now available for the young in the community, new growing families, to
have an opportunity to buy a home, to expand‑‑(interjection) Sorry,
I am good until two or three.
In any event, as I was saying, Madam
Chairperson, so all of a sudden, these young families in the community have an
opportunity now to buy those houses that have been freed up by the people who
have been living in them because they are moving into the community. There is a recycling of that kind of
activity. Then all of those new families
that are moving into those houses now need furniture and accessories and other
things, so there is another ripple effect through the community there.
Interestingly enough, there is obviously a
pile of jobs associated with this kind of project, and it was interesting to
see, as I visited the community, as I said, on a couple of occasions last
summer, these people were running over the project like ants, building,
constructing a significant building, probably next to maybe the hospitals and
schools the most significant building in Neepawa. So it did provide an awful lot of work for
those people.
Understandably so, the provincial
government got a little piece of the action, as well. The taxpayer got some benefit back through
the charges that are associated with the purchase of materials, and so on. The federal government got a piece of the
action too, through the GST, although there is a significant rebate portion
related to these kinds of projects. The
fact of the matter is they did get their little piece of the action, and
interestingly enough, even the town benefited.
The town got a major new customer, a major
new building, but they are also going to get a major new property tax source
they did not have before. All of a
sudden, now, this significant new landmark on the skyline of Neepawa is
providing a significant additional‑‑(interjection) I do not think
so, but the fact of the matter is, Madam Chairperson, despite the views of the
member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray), the fact of the matter is on the skyline of
Neepawa now is a significant new structure, a home, not really just a
structure, but a home for 50 families or people that was not there before and
that is providing benefits.
It provided benefits through construction
jobs. It provided benefits through the
spinoff of those people who supplied the materials, the furnishings and other
related accessories for that building, and it provides the town with
significant new revenues in terms of property tax. I hate to think, quite frankly, what property
tax is on a project like that, but I know I am going to find out because I am
going to have to include it in my budget or some significant portion of it, at
least, anyway, in my budget come next year.
But the minister had asked about the
dynamics of the current public housing market, and what kind of impacts there
are. I think you have to understand,
first of all, when dealing with social housing in general, the dynamics of the
last 20 years or so because they are significant.
In 1970, there was no Manitoba Housing and
Renewal Corporation. There was no
Manitoba Housing Department. There was
nothing in terms of public housing.
There was a little bit of‑‑what do they call it‑‑the
old urban renewal kind of program that came out from the federal government,
which saw the construction of Lord Selkirk Park and, I believe, Gilbert Park;
they were the two projects that were constructed under that old urban renewal
area No. 1.
Interesting enough, in those days, my
father who was a real estate appraiser was employed by the then federal
government to do work on behalf of that original
In any event, he went into these units,
and he had to hire the off‑duty policeman to go with him because it was
worth your life and limb to go, and, of course, the federal government did not
pay a hell of a lot in terms of‑‑a large amount, I should say. Madam Chairperson, I apologize. In any event, it did not pay very much money
in terms of how to deal with it, and then your expenses associated with it and
hiring an off‑duty policeman to go in there with you, but it was an
interesting aside in any event.
But the dynamics of public housing of the
day, as I said, were really‑‑there was not anything. In 1970 or thereabouts, there was a move
afoot, both by provincial governments and by CMHC and the federal government,
to get into public housing in a big way.
This was the way of the 1970s; it was to be in public housing. They were going to go out and build, and, in
fact, they did build thousands of units.
The Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, in fact, was approving
units 6,000 and 7,000 at a time on an annual basis for
An Honourable Member: Who is that?
Mr. Ernst: Well, we will come up with a list of names if
you would like, but at the moment I do not have them in front of me so‑‑
An Honourable Member: Is it deep in your mind?
* (2300)
Mr. Ernst: Well, I would hate to miss it. I hate to‑‑(interjection) They
would be hurt. In any event, there was
pretty limited staff overall in the Manitoba Housing at the time, and so what
they said was, how are we going to deal with it? We want to, philosophically as a government,
the Schreyer government of the day said, build public housing units. We want to build them and they are available
from CMHC. I have all these 7,000 units
they want to give us, but how do we deal with it? I mean, we cannot obviously build them
ourselves; we do not have the staff; we do not have the expertise; we do not
have the resources and so on.
What they did was they had turn‑key
calls for proposals. What they simply said to the construction industry was,
you provide me with 100 units, 200 units, whatever, of public housing. We want stack‑down houses; we want
apartment units. We give a variety of
types of construction. You provide the
land, you build the building, and you build it to the
In any event, Madam Chairperson, what they
did is they built all of these units in a turn‑key operation, pretty
minimum standards, and entrepreneurs being entrepreneurs, and the fact that
there were not a lot of supervisory people available, and there were not a lot
of standards, a lot of criteria associated with this mass introduction into the
public housing program, that both from CMHC's point of view and from Manitoba
Housing's point of view some questionable stuff got on the books.
In fact, today, we are spending more
fixing them up than they cost. We are
spending on units that cost the government of the day $6,000 or $7,000. Today, 20 years later, we are spending
$30,000 and $40,000 a unit fixing. But
that is kind of the dynamics around public housing units and the way they were
done.
At the same time, you had to deal with,
particularly with respect to seniors units, the question of getting a lot of
units on‑stream for seniors who had limited incomes and had limited
desires in terms of‑‑they were, as I said earlier, living in third
floors of creaky old houses in a lot of older neighbourhoods, paying a lot of
money and getting very little for it.
Projects like
They built 185 Smith Street with all these
bachelor units, and, of course, when people looked and said, now on a rent‑geared
income basis, where would I rather live‑‑in that drafty attic on a
third floor of an old house in the core area of Winnipeg for $300 a month, or
in a brand‑new high‑rise with a restaurant on the main floor in
downtown, where I can walk down to Eaton's any time I want, for a rent geared
to income of $150 a month?
There is no question where they wanted to
live. They wanted to live at
So here they had a brand‑new unit in
a high‑rise apartment. I had an elevator, did not have to walk up three
floors with my groceries anymore; I could say I had an elevator take me right
up to the floor, walk right into my unit.
It was terrific, but times changed.
Meanwhile, those buildings are built with 50‑year mortgages and 50
years at least of life maybe, hopefully a lot more than that.
Some Honourable Member: And who pays for it now?
Mr. Ernst: The taxpayers, of course, contribute forever
and ever, amen, as far as subsidies of these kinds of projects are concerned.
So we are now faced with a situation
where, in the last five or 10 years now, people, all of a sudden, I think, have
got a lot wiser; maybe it was the education the member for
Which would you rather have? Well, I guess the answer is pretty obvious,
and what has happened over a period of time is that people are now saying, heh,
if I go into a bachelor unit waiting for a one‑bedroom I may not ever get
one. I will not get on the list because
I am already in a unit. They will
hesitate to take me out of it and put me into a one‑bedroom. They will just take somebody and put them
directly in a one‑bedroom. So I am
not going to go. I will live in my
drafty, third‑floor, core area, bachelor unit until a one‑bedroom
becomes available, because I do not want to get stuck in a bachelor unit and
not be able to get out of it, and you know, given the choice of cost, I mean,
heavens, who would not take a one‑bedroom over a bachelor any day of the
week? I mean anybody with any kind of
ounce of common sense in their head at all would do that.
So those dynamics have changed so that now
we have got a problem with some of these bachelor units, and we are going to
have to be addressing it in a number of different ways. We talked about that earlier with the member
for
Now we are dealing with rural
There are lots of other small communities
throughout rural
In a lot of those towns where public
housing units were built, they were needed, you know, way back in the
'70s. Many of them were single family or
duplex or fourplex types of accommodation.
They were built there to try and accommodate the needs of those times,
but the dynamics of rural
Let me give you a very good example. The towns of Altona and Gretna, six miles I
believe apart on, you know, an all‑weather beautiful highway, two very
nice senior citizens projects, about 16‑20 units, something like that, in
each place.
I guess the Altona one is a little bit
bigger. Actually the
* (2310)
The fact of the matter is that if you do
not have a car, you do not drive or you do not have somebody to drive you, it
is a long walk when you are 80 years old at 30 below, to walk from
They want to go to centres where all of
those things that they are going to need, the medical facilities and services
particularly, as you get older, become more and more important. That is where
they want to go. That is what they want
to have, and that is where they are ultimately going to locate. It is a simple fact of life. It does not matter if they live forever in a
little community. The fact of the matter
is, when you are sick or you are aging and you need those services, you have to
have them. It is a fact of life. The fact of the matter is they are not going
to be able to get them in those little communities anymore, so they are going to
have to go where they can get them. That
is ultimately where we are going to have to be providing, wherever we can,
assistance in terms of public housing.
So those dynamics have changed as well,
and to get more particularly to the point raised by the Minister of the
Environment (Mr. Cummings), the fact of the matter is that we are faced with
situations now where we have chronic vacancies in some communities. As a matter of fact, I just asked the
Manitoba Housing Authority the other day to take a look at the chronic vacancy
situation, because we have places in Manitoba where we have got units that have
been vacant for five, six and seven years.
We have situations where units have never been occupied, never.
When they were built‑‑(interjection)
No, most notably
I just raised Cain with CMHC the other
day; they are building new houses there.
The Manitoba Metis Federation, on contract with CMHC, are building new
houses there. I said, my God, we have
vacant units that are chronically vacant; some have never been occupied, and
you are building new units. Come
on! That is what was happening, with two
delivery mechanisms and two jurisdictions that we talked about a little bit
earlier.
In fact, you had situations where, in a
community, you had on the one hand Manitoba Housing having built units,
occupied, subsidized 75 percent by the federal government. All of a sudden now, the agent of the federal
government today comes in and says, you know, those 10‑year‑old
units are fine, but we are going to build brand new units to today's standards,
today's colour schemes, with today's kind of entities attached to them.
They build those units; now offer those to
the tenant for the same money, where do you think he is going to go? He is going to go to the new unit. Would you not? I mean, I would. Given an option, they are going to go into
the new unit.
So they move into the new unit at 100
percent CMHC cost or, in the case of some programs, again, 75 percent CMHC, 25
percent
Well, let me tell you, that did not make
sense and that concerned me greatly and I think ought to concern everyone in
this Legislative Chamber because, who the heck wants to waste the taxpayers'
money like that? I certainly do not and
I certainly would not want to see it occur.
So with those kinds of situations
occurring, we had to address the situation of these chronic vacant units and
how we are going to deal with it. There
are peak load demands that occur in one neighbourhood‑‑I should not
say neighbourhood so much as one community or another community in rural
Manitoba. We have situations where we
might have had a big demand five years ago in one area and we built some units
to try and accommodate that demand. Now
that demand has evaporated, those people have all moved somewhere, the
community is declining, there is no need for the units anymore, but we have
another demand pop up over here.
So what do we do? Do we kind of let those sit there and hope
that somebody comes along someday that will occupy them and go and build a
bunch more new units over here? Do we
take those units and move them over here, if they can be moved? I do not know. Maybe we ought to reassess the whole
situation, and that is exactly what we are doing. We are having to reassess it because we do
not have the units anymore to be able to do those kinds of things.
We have demands and needs now on Manitoba
Housing to try and address the kinds of concerns that are raised in these
communities. We have people who are
saying, look, if the thing is sitting vacant for five or six years, nobody is
in it, give me a stab at it. I would
like to take it on a tender for 10,000 or 15,000 bucks and move it off the lot
and renovate it myself because it is sitting vacant for five or six or seven
years. God only knows what kind of
condition it is in, but I would like to be able to take it and, say, let me
work on it, kind of put all my own kind of sweat equity into the project. I can maybe scrape up the dough to get the
unit, be able to move it down on a two‑acre lot my granddad gave me down
the road and put it on a basement and fix it up for my family.
There are people coming forward and asking
us, can we do that? It is certainly
better in my view than letting the damn thing sit for years on end and having
it simply deteriorate and rot away.
So we are having to address those kinds of
issues and we are hopeful that the whole aspect of public housing in rural
Manitoba can be kind of rationalized a little bit over the next period of time,
and that is going to be tough, because people are going to have to be faced
with decisions that are not comfortable, but those decisions are coming, not
just in housing, but I think in terms of services that the government provides
over a broad spectrum of activities. It
is that we just do not have the money, do not have the ability, the resources
anymore to provide that service in every localized little area of
So we have to rationalize these things as
they proceed in the future, particularly in light of the reduced ability to
meet the needs of Manitobans in terms of their social housing requirements, but
we will do that, and we will work with the people, both in rural and urban
centres, across the province to provide and continue to provide, hopefully, the
kind of services that they will need into the future.
* (2320)
I know that ultimately‑‑and I
do want to comment too, briefly, about some of the other kinds of things that
can be used to supplement the kind of activity that we have had historically
over the past number of years. The
member for Point Douglas asked me earlier tonight about Habitat for Humanity
and what kind of association that the government has had with this help group.
These are wonderful, wonderful. They
have provided housing for a number of Manitobans, particularly in the core area
of Winnipeg, housing that those people themselves would say they would never
have been able to afford; never in their life would they ever have been able to
afford a house as nice as the one that they got as a result of their work with
Habitat for Humanity.
It was a very significant impact that this
year they are going to complete their 90th house in
But getting back to the Habitat for
Humanity people, I mean, this Jimmy Carter work project is going to be
providing 18 housing units, sweat‑equity housing units for 18
families. I attended the sod turning
back in May, Madam Chair, and it is really heartwarming to see the families
that are going to get those units. There
were so excited, the fact that they will be able to get into this kind of a
housing unit. It is just beyond
comprehension in many people's views that they cannot really think that‑‑we
are not talking about one single unit now; we are talking about 18 houses,
almost a whole new neighbourhood, required a Plan Winnipeg amendment in order
to accommodate them.
These people are so excited that they are
going to get into these housing units, and they are gung ho. They are prepared to put all kinds of effort
and work, as are an awful lot of other people prepared to put in work‑‑
An Honourable Member: Pride of ownership.
Mr. Ernst: But exactly, and you know it is being built
right next to the Lord Selkirk Park Housing Development, the very first social
housing project built in the city of Winnipeg.
I am, honest to God, hoping that some of
those tenants across the street in the Lord Selkirk Housing project can take some
stimulus, can use these people as a bit of a role model in the sense to say,
yes, I can achieve that, too, that I can have the ability to get into a house
like that myself if I kind of apply myself.
Maybe there is going to be some residual benefit, shall we say, out of
these 18 housing units that are not only going to benefit the people who live
in those units and will live in them for many years to come and raise their
families there, and so on, but will have some residual benefit for their
neighbors in the Lord Selkirk Park Housing project where they are going to say:
Gee, you know, how come they got such a nice brand new house in a nice new kind
of neighborhood, when I am living in a public housing unit here? How can I invest in that kind of situation?
Can I maybe spend 500 hours of sweat equity in putting it into a house in order
for me to benefit my family and to be able to have that kind of amenity and
that kind of benefit for my wife and children or spouse or whatever the
circumstances are in that family unit?
But it is interesting, you come from a
somewhat sheltered environment from time to time. Some of us have not experienced, in terms of
life circumstances, the whole spectrum of all that there is out there. We have not always seen‑‑well, we
have seen it maybe on the edges. Maybe
we have seen it when we have been driving by.
Maybe you saw it on the news.
(Mr. Jack Penner, Acting Chairperson, in the
Chair)
I say, it does your heart good to see the
kind of excitement that is generated by a group of people who are dedicated to
providing housing for families, to provide them with an opportunity to create
something better for their family in the future, and to do kind of the old barn‑raising
technique that was so prevalent in the past many years ago.
The people in the community got together
when somebody needed something of significance that they might not have been
able to provide all on their own, that they did not have the resources to
provide directly within their family unit, but that on a communal basis, if
everybody got together and spent a period of time, a small period of time in
relation to their overall daily chores, they were able to really give somebody
an opportunity to have something that they would not otherwise be able to achieve.
There were those barn raisings and house
raisings and so on that occurred in pioneer days that today I think is an awful
lot more difficult to do than it ever was in those days. First of all, you did not have building codes
quite the same as they have today. I do
not think they had building inspectors as they have today. But the quality of building you are getting,
of course, is much better today too than in those days. Nonetheless, the principles are the same‑‑your
neighbors, your community helping you do better, helping you achieve something
you could not achieve on your own.
That is something that I think all of us
can be very proud of. I, quite frankly,
look forward to the day that I go on July 19, House sitting or not, to work on
the Jimmy Carter housing project.
Quite frankly, we would do a lot more for
the people of
I intend to go, and I think the Premier
(Mr. Filmon) intends to go, and I think the member for Point Douglas (Mr.
Hickes) intends to go. Beyond that, I
have no idea who has an interest and who does not.
Let me tell you that we would be providing
the people of Manitoa with a whole lot more service than we are by what we are
doing here, particularly in the latter stages of the Estimates process here.
So that gives you kind of a thumbnail
sketch, Madam Chairperson‑‑or Mr. Acting Chairperson now, I am
sorry; I see you have changed clothes‑‑of the kind of problems that
we have been facing in terms of the vacancies in units, both in urban and rural
Manitoba, and some of the dynamics around both; how they got to be where they
are today; and what we are going to have to do to address the issues in both
the present and the future.
That is the whole darn problem with
building something that is built for a usable period of 50 or 75 years, when
the dynamics surrounding its use change every five or 10. How do you predict‑‑and I am sure
it is very easy when you are in opposition to be able to predict what to do,
because you do not have to take responsibility ultimately for what happens.
But, as the dynamics of politics in this
province go on and on, it may turn out that everybody has to accept some of the
responsibility as political fortunes rise and fall over long periods of time,
because these units are in fact put into place for long periods of time. They are not just‑‑(interjection)
Yes, you have had your problems‑‑you and Kevie both.
But the fact of the matter is that we have
to deal with these kinds of issues, and all we can do, all anyone can do, is
make projections and proposals and build for the future based on your best
estimate of what is going to happen.
No one can predict for sure what is going
to happen. No one, I do not think, 25
years ago would have begun to have predicted what would have happened to rural
Mr. Acting Chairperson, I see I have run
out of time, but I think that gives us kind of a general overview of the
situation with respect to Housing.
Hon. Gerald Ducharme
(Minister of Government Services): Mr. Acting
Chairperson, I have certainly enjoyed the minister's thumbnail sketch of
Housing problems. I always enjoy the
Estimates of Housing. I enjoyed them
while I was minister. I have always
enjoyed the member from across the way,
We have gone through some pioneer
days. We have gone through the life
leases. We have gone through the
vacancies and the problems, changing times.
The different groups have been addressed by the minister. We talked about the Elks and we talked about
the Lions. He did not mention the
Knights, I think, in his deliberations.
I thought maybe he would mention some of the Knights' projects, but
maybe he will mention some of the church‑group projects in some‑‑
An Honourable Member: St. Vital Knights,
Mr. Ducharme: Right.
I am going to get to the St. Vital Knights' project in a minute.
* (2330)
I must mention, though, that one of the
reasons why I probably enjoy Housing is because my family goes back to the 17th
Century in regard to carpentry work, right back. I will not go back that far because I know
the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) would not want me to go back to the
17th Century in regard to my family.
I have an apology to the member for
We developed; we decided, or my father
decided at the time to buy a couple of lots on
An Honourable Member: You had no sidewalks?
Mr. Ducharme: No sidewalks at the time. We developed sidewalks later on.
You developed it and you got this lot and
you went in there, and I know my dad would go down to the old St. Vital
municipality and say, I want to buy a lot.
They would say, well, pick one, and he would say, which one can I
have? They would go to the map and you
say, how much is that lot? They would
say $50, and he would say, how come so much?
It is just a piece of land with a bush.
They would say, well, if you get the house built quickly enough you
might be able to pay for the lot.
So he would go to the lot, and he would
start chopping down the trees and getting everything ready for this particular
house and he would start building. It
was amazing to watch this one individual do everything. I mean, they got the horses that cut out the
lot, and I am talking about the horses with the trough in front of them so they
could dig out the lot and get the basement ready. Then also he would go through, he would build
the cupboards. He would do all the
cupboards, he would do all the finishing in this particular house.
Then along comes his helper, his
subtrade. His subtrade would come along
and his subtrade was a painter, and the painter was married to him. She would come along and she would paint the
house. They would work from one process
to another.
Finally he worked up to building about
three houses one time‑‑three houses at one time. Then he moved over to another street, and he
would have more subtrades. His other
subtrades would be either my brother or me.
We would have to go along, and he would get us to do the
insulation. We would get the nice
jobs. We would get the insulation up in
the attics in the middle of the summer, or we would take the nails out of the
boards, or we would have to go into the bottom of the closets. We would have to take the lumber and the
scaffolding off the forming material, because as you can probably appreciate,
you did not have plywood forms at the time, you had shiplap forms, so you had
to do the stripping. Those were the fun
jobs that we used to do.
An Honourable Member: You did not have to go inside the septic
tank, did you?
Mr. Ducharme: No, I mentioned, he trained me to do those
types of jobs that I had to do a couple of weekends ago. I had to turn around and go to the cottage
and they warned me that the septic tank was not working right, so I had to
crawl inside the septic tank, so it made a delightful weekend. The minister reminds me of that. It was a delightful weekend.
All this I am trying to lead up to some of
the words of the member for
But then the member talks about, how do
you know that marketing is here? The
whole thing leads to marketing. You take
a look. When I was minister we talked
about the joint venture, and I understood today he did bring up some questions
to the minister in regard to the joint venture.
You have to realize that we, unlike the
previous administration who had traffic go by, building going around them on
this what we called jewel piece of property that we finally decided with the
joint venture with the Ladco development.
They watched it go by. At that
time, we probably would have had 1,500 to 2,000 homes built on this particular
property 10 years ago, if they would have not decided that they wanted to just
have carrying charges on this particular property and not get in business with
somebody or show that government could make some type of profit. We always say the whole idea of making profit
is put it back into the government.
The member for
I must say to the member for Inkster, if
he had been involved in dealing with developers, I must say to him, if you take
a look at some parts of south St. Vital and St. Vital itself, that dealing with
these type of developers, you can call them what you want, they are probably
better than anyone else simply because they do a development. The larger the development‑‑or
dealing with one main developer is much better than dealing with four or
five. I know when I got to City Hall, we
ran into areas in the Meadowood area‑‑the Meadowood area was
sparsely developed, where people were buying lots. You found out they bought lots, and the
frontages were not paid, so the frontages were added to their taxes, where
other people who bought the lot right next door bought and found out that their
frontage is Winnipeg. So you would have
one person with $1,800 worth of taxes compared to one at $600 worth of taxes,
and that was the type of development that you really want to avoid.
I say to the member that these types of
developments, for the people of the city of
I must remember that‑‑(interjection)
Well, it is right next door to
* (2340)
The member also talked about Housing
projects and the member for
The ones north of
He also talked, I also would like to know
from the minister, he talked about the life‑lease projects, and there was
one that was started by ourselves, the Knights of Columbus on St. Anne's and
Bishop Grandin, and we talked about projects that you needed a little bit of
imagination. We had a piece of land
there that was bought during the land banking.
There was land that was owned by MHRC, vacant land for years and years
and years. However, the vacant land was at the back of the property that they
bought. They bought this many years ago,
and it was at the back on the river side.
Unfortunately, the city owned the one at the front, and then there was a
street running along the side, I think it was Lavallee Road, that never had
improvements along it because the people had only built at the end and on the
other half, so no one would ever support improvements to go down to develop one
part of Lavallee.
Why they bought the land, I have no
idea. We could never find out why MHRC
had bought this land years and years ago, so we got together with the
city. We suggested that probably there
could be‑‑we looked at 46 units, we looked at 96 units. We went to the City of
So after many, many months of trying to
negotiate what could be done with that piece of property, the Knights knowing
that there is no way you were going to get 96 units in one particular area of
the city regardless of whether the member was the Minister of Housing or
not. We were not going to get 96 units,
so an agreement was set up that you built the first 46 after trading with the
City of
I was in there. The sponsoring group is looking at it. I know that the member is very, very
susceptible to the people that sponsor, the Knights, who work very, very hard
on this project. I was just in there the other day visiting the people in that
particular area, and a lot of the seniors that are there are from people who
remembered St. Vital when St. Anne's Road was a one‑way track on the
streetcars. St. Mary's had the two
tracks, but St. Anne's only had one. It
used to turn around the back, and there was no by‑pass, so you had to
wait. You knew that you missed the
streetcar, you had to wait for it to come back.
These people remember that, and some of the widows in that particular
project are amazed at the type of project that can be done in the St. Vital
area.
It is a great addition to St. Vital. We in St. Vital enjoy that type of
project. I know that the minister
himself was very, very helpful in other projects we have had in St. Vital. We can take a look, years ago, when he was
with the City of
We had a project where we had some
community club property that was on St. Anne's Road that was also landlocked. I know that the minister at the time was EPC
chairman, and we sat down with the member at the time, with the Riverside Lions
club of St. Vital, who had been involved many, many years in the particular
area. They came to us and said, we would
like to do a project, but we would like to do a very unique project. We would like to maybe combine seniors with
handicapped in the same building.
I know, if the member has not been there‑‑the
member for
The minister also talked about the Jimmy
Carter Habitat that was established several years ago. I remember the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and
myself, quite a few years ago, I guess it was in '89 or '90, we spent a couple
of afternoons hammering nails when it first got started. At that time, the people were not quite
sure. MHRC donated some lots to help the
particular project, and then along came the house building industry who got
together the people from the house building industry got together and got the
subtrades and different suppliers to do a donation and build a house at the
Convention Centre; subtrades and everything was all donated.
I know the fellow that designed the house
donated his time. Through that they had a raffle of this particular house, and
I believe the lot was in the member from
Through that we heard about Jimmy Carter's
involvement and MHRC at the time, through the Habitat, approached Jimmy Carter.
There were quite a few cities across
We had to guarantee so many lots.
(interjection) Right. It is a plus for
I know the member from Point Douglas (Mr.
Hickes) is looking forward to Mr. Carter, or President Carter coming and
working for him on that project. The
minister and also the member from Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings), they expounded on
the rural. I must say that until I
became an MLA and a minister I always get a little coaxed from my members that
I do not understand the other side of the
They always tell me, well, it is nice for
you to be out of here. It is always nice
to come out here, do not you enjoy it? And I say, oh, yes, it is nice but I
still like being inside the
It is an A‑1 type of project, but
you can just see that people in these different areas, they want to stay in the
area. They want to stay in those particular areas. That is where they want to be and where their
children and their roots are, and they want to stay in those different
communities.
I can honestly say that as minister through
the competition of dealing with the units, our government was very, very fair
in what areas they decided. We made sure
that the people came forward giving their suggestions, giving the locations of
those particular units.
I was just out in the area of the Highways
minister just the other day to a little town called Rosenort. Now, I have never been to Rosenort. I was invited out there and we sat down with
the people. It is just for those who are
not aware of where Rosenort is, it is just‑‑(interjection) I was
invited out to Rosenort. The people from
that area invited me out for supper, and they invited the Premier (Mr. Filmon)
of the province and they invited the Highways minister (Mr. Driedger)‑‑he
was not there‑‑and the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness). I would say, why would we go out to
Rosenort? What is it in Rosenort?
Everyone is telling me about this thriving community of Rosenort.
It is just west of 75 Highway, just before
Morris, and you are about 10 kilometres off the road and you get to this
beautiful town of
They have a couple of housing projects
there. I remember the member in that
area, the honourable Minister of Highways, told me about this project that, you
have to get this project in this particular area because, he says, they really
need it and it is a thriving community.
So during the process, he had to wait
patiently like everybody else, and I said, but they do not have any roads
there. He said, I will take care of the
roads, you build this little place, the housing projects.
Well, I will tell you, they have roads
there. You can go through the area and
the yards, I mean, everybody has a garden. I am not just talking about a
vegetable garden. Everybody has a flower
garden and their yards are just immaculate.
And everybody you talk to is either a member of this community, he is a
volunteer here along with his business, or he is a volunteer here along with
his job. It is one great community. I remember they asked the Premier to get up
to speak and then they asked the Finance minister to get up and speak, and they
all spoke.
An Honourable Member: Where was Albert?
Mr. Ducharme: Albert was involved in some kind of
nomination that night, of helping his fellow win. Zero for two, I hear, Albert.
I have to tell you a little story. When they asked me to get up everybody kidded
me, as I say, about being outside the Perimeter, and I have to tell you, if
that is what outside the Perimeter looks like, it is a fantastic little town
with a thriving community.
(Madam Chairperson in the Chair)
Maybe I will tell you a little story. We were out looking and we were being taken
around by a van out there, and the fellow was chauffering us around and showing
us all this beautiful community, and we ran by a place where the fellow was
selling flowers, a market gardener, and the greenhouse was away at the back of
his property but with a sign up.
We were with a couple and the Premier was
there, and the Premier and his wife said, God, we had better get these flowers
for the boxes in front of our place, and we are out here and we will do this
out in Rosenort. Would he not be
surprised if we drop in? So we go to the
back and we honk our horn and this guy comes into the greenhouse, and as he
walks in the Premier sticks out his hand and says, I am Gary Filmon, Premier,
and the guy just looked, he just dropped.
He could not realize that the Premier had driven all the way to Rosenort
to buy his bedding plants from him. They
have bedding plants now.
The Minister of Housing's (Mr. Ernst) area
now has bedding plants from Rosenort in Charleswood. So everything works together. We do buy, those people in the city are
buying, do buy and we bring back things for the area from Rosenort.
I must say to the minister that I have
enjoyed his topics. Since we were here earlier this afternoon, he went over in
regard to land banking. I have to say
that the member for
I honestly have to say to the member, the
carrying charges of this land are ridiculous.
Unfortunately, we have land that will take a long time to develop. You could unload it, but it would not be the
type of thing you would want to unload at this particular time. Some was declared, and we tried to declare
some surplus that we even would go to people to market. We would go to realtors and say, listen, you
can list it, you can sell. We are
talking about smaller parcels of 20, 30, 40 acres.
I think there was one small piece that was
sold out in his area of 29 acres to go in combination with another. I think Genstar was doing some land and we
sold them some that was close to his, not in his Meadows West, but on the other
side of the Genstar development.
We tried to do that and it was very, very
frustrating‑‑I know the staff.
Without having an auction on this particular land and just unloading for
the sake of unloading, I think it would have been a disaster.
To the minister, though, I would like to
know from the minister whether‑‑he talked about the market. He talked about the different involvement
that he had in regard to the lifetime leases.
I know he talked about a circumstance of a lady that was in Charleswood
or that had approached him in regard to a life lease.
I had a similar solution in regard to the
life lease, involved a lady on Sherwood who asked me about Fred Douglas
Lodge. She was a little hesitant,
wondering what‑‑she was a widow, not understanding what she was
getting involved in. She called me
over. She showed me the plans. They made an opportunity to her. They allowed her to put a deposit in.
* (0000)
Madam Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable minister's time has expired.
Mr. Ernst: Madam Chair, I thank the member for Riel (Mr.
Ducharme) for his comments. (interjection) Well, and he may have some cause for
that. Nobody's perfect, least of all me,
but I want to thank him for his comments because, in a large part, he has kind
of filled in some of the blanks. Having
been the former minister for I guess the better part of three years, he has a
lot of background information on history related to the department, and what
has happened since we first came into government in 1988 and went into
discussing a number of issues related to the department, and as a matter of
fact, discussed a few issues that were not related to the department, but it
was interesting, nonetheless.
Quite frankly, I mean it can get pretty
stuffy and boring you know if you continue on going on some of the stuff too
much without interjecting a little bit of personal attachment or personal
history associated with it. I think it
adds quite a bit to the debate, and, certainly, I think makes it infinitely
more interesting for all of us who are listening here. I am sure that you, Madam Chairperson, would
agree with that wholeheartedly, in your position of great patience and
diligence and amazing, amazing ability to sit in the Chair like that for a long
period of time, not to say that the Clerk and the Sergeant‑at‑Arms
also are not faced with that kind of diligence and patience, because they are.
Nonetheless, Madam Chair, the whole
question of the land bank, I guess, is one that will be revisited by history
time after time after time as to whether or not it was a good thing to do,
whether we should have done it, whether, they, the government of the day, should
have been involved.
I know it caused great consternation back‑‑I
was a rookie city councillor at the time when‑‑
An Honourable Member: We saw that picture in the Free Press.
Mr. Ernst: Yes, you saw the one where I had hair, and it
was not gray. At one time‑‑
An Honourable Member: You were once a rookie . . . .
Mr. Ernst: Yes, I was a rookie city councillor. That is around the time when I first went
into the city, late in November of 1973.
I think the land bank arrangement started happening around late '74 or
so, a year later.
That was the time, of course, when members
of the City Council were 50 in number, and there were some very long‑term
politicians involved. They were Abe
Yanofsky, for instance, former mayor of West Kildonan, Bernie Wolfe, vice‑chair
of Metro, Dick Wankling, mayor of
An Honourable Member: Was there not one who was named after a
bridge, which one was that?
Mr. Ernst: Well, there were a number of former City of
In conjunction with the provincial
government, we were going to go out there because land prices were
skyrocketing. Development, God forbid, was rampant in the city of
You have to put a stop to this, so the
government, collectively, City of
What did the City of
Anyway, the
Anyway, yes, we will buy property there
and then we will go out and we will buy some in‑‑where is the next
best area to buy? Well, they are starting to develop Lindenwoods, so let us buy
a couple of miles south of that. In the
middle of nowhere, they bought a bunch of farmland, maybe a thousand acres or
so and again paid significant dollars, way beyond what was anything even close
to being reasonable in terms of the amount of money that they invested in the
property.
Of course, then, the accounting practices of
the government are not the same accounting practices of private industry who,
in fact, when they acquire land like this, write off the carrying costs
annually against their taxes. Well, the
government does not have any taxes that it pays to write it off against, so
what does it do? It capitalizes it.
Now we have a situation where you paid
significant dollars much, much beyond what should have been paid for this
land. You are holding it for that 20‑
or 25‑year period of time, capitalizing the taxes and the interest and
the other carrying costs associated with the land. Some of it has been leased out for farming
purposes and so on and have some kind of a return attached to that but not
significant by any stretch of the imagination.
Nonetheless, there has kind of been some return on investment.
When you capitalize all these costs, I
mean, I mentioned to the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) earlier on the
Royale Wood property that is now under subdivision, the carrying costs are in
excess of half a million dollars a year or‑‑sorry, approaching half
a million dollars a year. Not only is
the clock still ticking and ticking and ticking, the cost is getting bigger as
time goes on, because all you are doing is heaping on, more taxes, more interest,
more carrying costs for this particular property. So we are faced with an ever‑increasing
clock as well as having it tick on a regular basis.
How do you get out from under these
circumstances? How do you say to the
Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), gee, I am sorry, but my carrying costs are
increasing not decreasing? My annual
budget needs to be increased to accommodate this kind of growth. We have serious difficulties in trying to
address it. How do you dump a couple thousand acres of land onto the market when
developers are hardly interested and then trying to scramble to hold their own
with land they currently own, let alone go out and look to purchase additional
land as a result of the current kind of depressed market conditions? They are scrambling at the present time.
So when the opportunity presented itself
after a proposal call in, I guess it was 1988 that it occurred, the former
minister, the member for Riel, negotiated an agreement with Ladco, a pre‑eminent
developer, I might say. They have a track
record that regardless of what political party they favour or do not favour or
anything else, the fact of the matter is that they are pre‑eminent
developers and have a very excellent track record, both in joint venture and on
their own in terms of development. They,
I think, have done very, very well.
So for the government to seek the advice
of someone like that, I think it made ultimately a lot of sense. They botched up the purchase of the land in
the first place, and history will say whether it was a mistake or was not a
mistake. I am sure we will have several
versions of history before it is all over as to what happened or should have
happened or could have happened or whatever.
* (0010)
The fact of the matter is that you have to
make the most of what you have. You have
a situation where you have 400 or 500 acres of land right adjacent to land
owned by Ladco, who have now a personal stake in it because our land has to get
developed before theirs. Their interest,
of course, is to getting ultimately, not only in addition to making money in
the process, but to get their land developed as well. So it made ultimate sense for us to create a
joint venture partnership so that the land would be developed in conjunction
with one another.
Today you are faced with significant costs
related to things like land drainage.
There is a huge cost today for subdivisions when you have to start
digging three‑ and four‑acre lakes, when you have to start trying
to address drainage, not only on your property, but drainage on adjoining
property as well, as we have in a situation in the north end, in Meadows West,
that the property adjacent to ours could not get developed because the lake has
to go on our property for the overall subdivision process there. So that creates another dynamic, but those
kinds of situations occur.
It is very, very difficult today for
anybody to come up with the capital necessary to put in huge amounts of
infrastructure on speculation on the fact that you hope that somebody will buy
the lots and build houses on them. So it
has to be done on a kind of a slow basis, little bits at a time. You develop some land and put it up for
sale. People acquire it, and they build
homes. They are going to build a parade of homes in there this summer so that,
for the fall parade of homes, they will have a number of units available
there. There is a lot of interest in
that particular subdivision, a lot more than initially the developer, I think,
anticipated, our joint‑venture partner in the process, that did not think
there was quite as much interest as was going to occur than actually did
occur. So, you know, that bodes well,
ultimately and hopefully‑‑I mean, this line was never, ever
purchased for social housing. This line
was purchased for one reason, as a hedge against inflated property values in
the city of
I think it behooves any government in
power to try and maximize the benefit of that for the taxpayers of
We are very dedicated to try and reach a
point where we can ultimately develop it and sell the lots off, not only in the
interest of urban development in creating an attractive new community for
Winnipeg and for Manitoba and providing opportunities to build homes for
Manitobans, but also to try and maximize the benefit to the taxpayers of the
province of Manitoba. I mean, heavens,
we are faced with the costs. There are
going to be significant costs rolling on for a long period of time. Surely, we ought to be able to maximize the
benefits for the taxpayers of the
I thank the Minister of Government
Services for having raised that issue and discussing it briefly, because I
think it is important that all of us recognize the dynamics surrounding that.
We still have a lot of other
property. It is interesting, you know,
the member also talked about this property that the St. Vital Knights have
ultimately developed in St. Vital. I do
not know who made some of these purchases, but some of them were pretty
sterling in their approach, I will tell you.
You had to be almost blind, I think, to have made some of these
purchases. They certainly were not well thought out, in any event. That situation in St. Vital where the
property is virtually landlocked, you have a hydro line on one side, you have
existing development up the one side and you have the City of
There is one in Charleswood, actually in
the Premier's riding, that we sold recently‑‑five acres of
land. You would think in the east end of
Charleswood it would be worth a lot of dough.
I mean, five acres of prime development land between the Varsity View
Community Centre and
It was beautiful wooded property and
something like that, you would think it would be terrific, it would be snapped
up in a minute. We advertised it for
sale three times before we got somebody who would come even close. We sold it ultimately, I think, for I think
about $100,000 or so. Five acres of land
for $100,000 is an amazing buy. The
problem is, there is $400,000 worth of servicing that had to be put in and it had
to come from all the way down at the far end of the property all the way up to
the Varsity View Community Centre.
Nobody thought at the time, where in the heck is the sewer and water
going to come from? How are we going to
drain the land? How are we going to deal
with this property in terms of servicing?
Nobody asked the question. All of a sudden they found they thought they
had a hell of a deal when in fact they had a dog.
We have had a number of other kinds of
pieces of property that were purchased and, interestingly enough, when the City
of Winnipeg did its development plan and drew a line around the city and said,
we are not going to allow development for the next 20 years beyond this line,
beyond the urban limit line.
You know, you think they drew it to
exclude all the property owned by MHRC. It
was just unbelievable how they could draw a line that would exclude all this
property. Again, I do not think anybody
really recognized what was going on, or where they should have addressed the
situations related to development or not, but it seems to me that the urban
limit line just kind of very nicely excluded all of the property owned by MHRC
around Winnipeg.
Again, history will deal with this in one
way or another, and probably several versions over long periods of time, but it
will ultimately I suppose be all part of the milieu of Manitoba in its long and
varied history.
With respect to projects like the St.
Vital Knights, again, I did not, by any stretch of the imagination earlier,
want to exclude the good works and interest of a lot of dedicated people. Because I think I indicated to the member for
Inkster earlier, the kind of work that we do in terms of projects today, we do
not build any directly ourselves, with the odd exception in some small rural
centres now. But, by and large, most of
the units are built by sponsors.
An Honourable Member: Right, and they have a vested interest.
Mr. Ernst: I will tell you, certainly that was not my
idea when I came into the department.
But I will tell you that we have an amazing‑‑I should not
say it is amazing‑‑I mean we all know what kind of volunteer
community we have in Winnipeg and in Manitoba.
The efforts put forward by community
groups, service groups, church groups, gosh, you name it, the kind of volunteer
coming forward. Hours and hours and hours
of work put in, people dedicated efforts to the exclusion in some cases of
their own personal lives and businesses.
There has been some trouble from time to time, too, that people get so
deep into these things sometimes that it creates some difficulties in the rest
of their lives.
An Honourable Member: What about Cosentino?
Mr. Ernst: A fellow from the Italian community, Gus
Cosentino, who worked so very hard for Villa Nova‑‑well, Villa
Cabrini first and then Villa Nova‑‑on behalf of the Italian community,
wound up having a heart attack and ultimately passing away before that project
really got‑‑they have the sod turned at least anyway. It was a happy day for the Italian community,
but a sad day for the Cosentino family because of the efforts that were put in
by their father and husband, who was unable to see the benefits now rising from
the earth. So I want to pay tribute to
all of those people. You look at the
multicultural groups, ethnic groups.
I want to tell you one little story about
one of the ethnic groups. When I first
became minister, he came to see me, a gentleman by the name of Sam Cheng.
An Honourable Member: What was the name?
Mr. Ernst: Sam Cheng.
He is a member of the Korean community. The Korean community in
* (0020)
Anyway, we have brought these people here,
but the problem is we are all trying to earn a living. So what you have is the husband out working,
the wife out working, the kids are at school, and the one or two aging parents
living in their home with them are lonely.
They do not have anybody to talk to.
The kids are at school, the parents are away working, both of them,
trying to earn a living and do well for their family, and you have a situation
where, gosh, the parents are lonely.
Now, they do not speak English‑‑little,
if any. They are not comfortable on the
public transit system; they do not drive a car.
Maybe they are living in St. James or St. Vital or whatever, and other
members of the community, because it is a small community, they are kind of
widespread. So how do I get to visit my
Korean friend on the other side of town?
A lot of them were so frustrated, the fact that they were lonely, they
did not have an opportunity to get together with some of their fellow
compatriots from home, that they were very, very unhappy.
That unhappiness transferred to their
children and grandchildren to a point where some of the grandparents were saying,
maybe I am better off if I went back to
He explained this to me, and said, look,
this is a serious problem for us. We
need to have some kind of project, some kind of an opportunity to put our
people, not all of them but some of them at least, together, to give them an
opportunity both from a family perspective and a seniors perspective. We need to have kind of a joint project so we
can have some families, some seniors, a mix so that we can try and solve some
of these difficulties. At the same time,
we think we have enough people and enough interest that we could attach a
little cultural centre to it so that it can become focal point for our Korean
community in
There is a significant‑‑let me
tell you that that very significantly touched me. He said, I think I understand what you are
faced with, the kind of problems you have, how you can deal with it, and I am
going to try and accommodate you, and that is exactly what they did, or what we
did.
We did approve, Madam Chairperson, a
project for them in recent time. As a
matter of fact, it is just nearing completion, but the original spot that they
picked we did not think a whole lot of and told them that. We said, gosh, we are prepared to deal with
the project, to build one for you, but we do not think you should build it
where you are planning on building. That
is an inappropriate location. Go find another
one. Well, they found another one‑‑the
old Winnipeg Badminton Club site next to the Winter Club on
What they did not tell them at the time
that they made application and what the planners in the City of Winnipeg did
not tell them‑‑oh, we have this very neat transportation plan that
we are proposing to change an eight‑lane bridge and replace the Norwood
Street bridges and so on, and all of a sudden now we are going to have four
lanes of traffic zooming by the front of your place and you might not be able
to get at it. In terms of, we have about
30 or 40 units of family housing there now, MHRC built there a number of years
ago. We now have this beautiful new
project. All of a sudden, out of the
woodwork, comes this transportation plan.
It is creating some difficulty.
So there is some concern over that, but nonetheless, the project is
nearing completion, and the expectation is to have an official opening sometime
later on this fall when that building is fully occupied.
Those are the kinds of dynamics sometimes
that are around some of these groups, and the efforts and so on, and amazing
numbers of hours and efforts are put in by the volunteers with these
groups. I guess I should not have
started with one, although it was good to find maybe kind of a flavour for the
kind of circumstances that are around it, but there are an awful lot of
dedicated people in those groups, and you start saying one group, then if you
do not mention them all, then‑‑well, you can continue on certainly
for a long period of time trying to explain to all those people, to all of the
people here in the Chamber, what the efforts are of those people associated
with those sponsor housing groups, and they do well.
There are always little scenarios that
come along that are sent, I think, to try your patience, your innovativeness,
how you can deal with unanticipated and/or anticipated problems that were not
supposed to happen but did and how you can ultimately solve those. I guess that is human nature, and that is
what all of us will have to address whenever we are thrust into those
circumstances.
Nonetheless, I am pleased that the former
Minister of Housing, Minister of Government Services, was able to provide us
with a little bit of history and a little bit of assistance with regard to
infill on some of those areas that we covered in the Estimates process earlier
on this evening and this afternoon.
I think it is important for all members,
and I can tell by their rapt attention here tonight that they are interested in
seeing and hearing and understanding, I guess, the efforts of the Department of
Housing related to activities in the
This is a very important discussion and
one that deserves a lot of attention, and certainly by the amount of time they
have allocated, obviously, towards discussions of the Estimates of the
Department of Housing must obviously give significant importance to the
department. I am pleased because it is
important, and I devote an awful lot of effort and time, as we all do in our
departments over time. Because they have
managed to spend some six and a half hours on the Department of Housing alone out
of 30 hours that were left is very significant, and it is a tribute, I think,
to the importance of the Department of Housing and the efforts that are
required‑‑(interjection)
That is right. The Minister of Government Services (Mr.
Ducharme) reminded me of‑‑(interjection) Well, you know, from time
to time, he does get a little off track.
Who does not in here? But,
nonetheless, he did remind me that our first involvement, he and I, when we
first came into the House in 1986, our first involvement was‑‑the
critic, for the Conservative Party, on Housing at the time was the member for
Assiniboia, then Ric Nordman. At the
time that the Housing Estimates came up, I think, in 1986, we had allocations
as House leaders do for departments and so on.
Well, the critic was ill. He
could not be there. So the House leader
arbitrarily assigned myself and the member for Riel at the time to deal with
the issue of Housing. We were to become
instant critics overnight, instant critics.
I think we had about two hours notice or something like that to go into Estimates. In any event, we launched into the Estimates
process that year‑‑
Madam Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable minister's time has expired.
Mr. Jack Penner
(Emerson): I just want to put a few words on the record
regarding some of the housing issues in our constituency and want to certainly
first of all express my appreciation to the Minister of Housing for the co‑operation
that he and his department have shown in dealing with the housing issues in
much of the southern part of the province, Madam Chairperson.
It is interesting to note that within the
last year, since the ministry has taken over the responsibility for housing, we
have been able to open up the regional office in housing under the
decentralization initiative as part of the government's effort to bring some
more jobs and to bring the housing authority closer to the people of rural
* (0030)
I want to say that the staff that the
minister has under the management of Vic Rupps, I understand, is doing an
excellent job and ensuring that all the concerns are being addressed in the
housing, and that the facilities are now probably being utilized to a much
greater extent than was previously the case under the former system that the
previous government had put in place, where much of the emphasis and
responsibility, Madam Chairperson, was directed towards the rural communities
and committees that they had set up. It
appeared that could have been somewhat costly at times.
However, before I get into asking some of
the questions on housing in our area, I want to make some comments on the
hospital issue that the honourable member for the Liberal Party‑‑and
I suppose this must be Liberal Party policy‑‑because of the
comments that he made regarding the construction of new hospital and health
care facilities in much of rural Manitoba, and the criticism that I heard the
Liberal member here extend to our government and our efforts to ensure that
proper health care facilities were being built in many of our rural communities
such as Carman and Vita and now the recently announced two new hospitals of
Altona and Stonewall.
I have to wonder where the Liberal Party is
at or what kind of policies they really are developing as far as health care in
the rural communities. It seems very
apparent that if they were in power and were they the government that
communities such as Altona, Emerson and Vita would never see the light of day
as far as new health care facilities.
I want to indicate to the honourable
member from the Liberal Party that the hospital in Altona, in fact, has the
windows falling out of it. You can walk
up to the windows and the window sills and pull out the window sills and look
inside, if you will, and then reinstall them without pulling a nail or putting
much effort into it.
I want to say to him that the floor of the
hospital is, in fact, falling out through the basement, because the foundation
is completely rotten under it. The
concrete is falling out from under the building. So I want to invite the honourable member
from
Then I would like to ask him to stand
publicly in Altona on a public platform and denounce, as he did here tonight,
denounce the provision of a new facility for a community of 3,500 people within
the town limits and, probably, an area that serves another 25,000 or 30,000
people within a 20‑ or 30‑mile radius.
He indicated before that those communities
that were in rural Manitoba need not have facilities in towns such as‑‑he
did not specifically name Altona, but he named some of the other communities
such as Minnedosa, Neepawa and those kinds of communities‑‑that
they need not have health care facilities in each and every one of these towns.
Well, I ask the member whether he would
want to, if his wife should have a little baby, travel for 40 or 50 miles
before he would see the light in the window of the nearest hospital at
midnight, especially during a snowstorm or down mud roads and those kinds of
things.
That is what we still have to do and
contend with in much of rural
I know that I can extend our thank you's
from the community of Altona and Vita for the health care facilities that are
going to be built there. But, today, I
would like to recognize that there needs to be a tremendous amount of attention
paid to how we deal with some of the housing initiatives.
When you look at some of the history of
what previous administrations have done with housing, you have to wonder where
the thinking of the day was. When you
drive into communities such as Vita, Sprague, Piney, Woodridge, Middlebro,
Sandilands or South Junction, Plum Coulee and some of those areas and look at
the kind of facilities that were built by the then‑NDP administration
some 15 or some of them probably even 20 years ago, single little houses out in
the middle of nowhere on streets that really have no relevance and that we
expect our elderly citizens to move into, the kind of boxes that were built at
that time as Manitoba Housing units. You
have to wonder where the thinking was.
I say that some of the units now under
construction or in conjunction with community organizations and groups such as
the minister described a little while ago certainly bear a much, much greater
degree towards lending themselves towards an efficient manner of providing
services to and housing facilities to our communities, because it is
organizations such as Lions clubs and other organizations that can become very
instrumental and have become very instrumental in ensuring that there will be a
co‑operative effort and a partnership developed between government and
the communities in providing those kinds of housing facilities. Many of the newer facilities that are being
built today by the department and in co‑operation with the department
certainly lend themselves to a much, much more proficient manner in which we
deal with housing and providing housing facilities for seniors.
The motel‑hotel type concept with
recreational facilities attached to them certainly are the order of the day in
many of the facilities that are being built now. I want to commend the Pembina Valley
Development Corporation in the initiative that they have taken in many of the
communities in the
Altona has certainly been one of the
communities that they have had a significant involvement in, and I believe
there is Oakbluff and a few other communities in the Minister of Finance's (Mr.
Manness) riding. I believe as well
Carman is one of the areas that the Pembina Valley Development Corporation has
had some significant interest and involvement in building housing facilities for
seniors, and that certainly should be recognized.
* (0040)
Another thing that I want to indicate to
the minister‑‑again the minister needs to be complimented in this
area for providing for these kinds of facilities, because when you have a
person or a family that has basically taken up residence in any one of the
communities in rural Manitoba and when you recognize the contribution that
these families have made and how involved they have been in community
activities, whether it be curling or playing baseball or being involved in
other organizational activities, whether it be volunteer or otherwise, is
something that these people want to continue, not disband and move into some
other area or part of the province where they can find housing. They want to stay at home. They want to remain in the communities during
their golden years and live and participate within those communities for the
rest of their productive lives.
Many of these people when they retire
certainly are capable of contributing in a very direct manner, a very useful
manner, through organizational work to the communities. It is through the schools that are in these
communities that provide services for the younger generation and seniors'
facilities, whether it be housing or otherwise, that provide the mainstay and
the foundations and bases for those communities.
So I want to say to the minister that he
recognized the housing facility that had been built in Carman, I believe he
identified the Boyne Lodge and talked about the beautiful facility that Carman
had. The reason that they could have
constructed the facility in such a manner was because of the action that this
government had taken in providing flood protection for that town.
You know, we have many times talked about
Duff's ditch and the flood diversion that was built under the Roblin
administration. Well, the people in
Carman today do not talk about Duff's ditch, they talk about the Filmon ditch
and the Filmon flood diversion that was built during our administration to give
exactly the same kind of flood protection to that community that the city of
Madam Chairperson, I believe your family
has certainly been part of experiencing what flooding out really means. I know that your mom and dad many times have
piled sandbags around their home and helped on at least three different
occasions that I was there, helped to protect the town by diking it on a
temporary basis. Well, I want to say to
the House, that will no longer be required in that town and all the property,
whether it be commercial or residential, whether it be the government‑sponsored
housing in that area or other, will have to again build up dikes or throw
sandbags and those kinds of things to protect itself from flooding in that town
of Carman. As we have done in many other
towns, specifically in the Red River Valley and I believe in a town such as
Ste. Rose, we have provided the flood protection that is required and needed in
those communities to make sure that the facilities that we build to provide
housing for our senior members in their golden years are in fact protected.
I want to ask the minister today what
further action he is contemplating in ensuring that there will be the kind of
continuation of the co‑operative effort that he and his department have
so ably demonstrated over the last couple of years. What action is he contemplating taking over
the next decade while we are going to be in government to ensure that future
generations will be able to enjoy the same kind of comfort that he is providing
for them today?
Mr. Ernst: Madam Chair, I think in response to the
member for Emerson's question, the first thing that we collectively on this
side of the House are going to do is, we are going to establish an economy in
this province that will see all of our young people have good, creative, long‑term,
well‑paying jobs. That is the
first thing.
We have to understand that collectively
also, the best form of assistance that we can provide to any citizen in our
society is in fact a good, long‑term, relevant, good‑paying job, so
that those citizens who hold those jobs can then provide for their families,
can then provide the housing that is necessary for their families and will
naturally occur through a stimulus in the market, new housing construction to
take place, the spin‑off jobs associated with that, industry, both the
building supply side and construction side itself.
The very first thing we need to do and I
think we will do, and we are trying very hard to, Madam Chairperson, I think
you will agree that that is our goal, is to provide that sound economy, that
good, sound opportunity for the true pioneer spirit of the citizens of our
province to be able to allow them to excel, to be able to allow them to have
that latent entrepreneurial spirit, that opportunity for development, that
opportunity to succeed and to provide for their families in a manner to which
they would like to become accustomed.
That is what we have to do in the first instance. Certainly I as a member of the Filmon
government want to do that. I think all
of us collectively want to do that and that is our long‑term goal.
As we govern this province over the next
10 or 15 years, we will strive to do that, both to create that economy and then
to maintain and nurture it and allow it to prosper and grow and ultimately
become the showcase of Canada in terms of what an economy can do and what a
government can do to assist that economy.
We will not do it, Madam Chair, based on borrowed money and phony make‑work
jobs. That is something we will not
do. I think the Premier (Mr. Filmon) has
indicated it and the Finance minister has indicated it and I think we have
amply demonstrated and I even think the Liberals agree with us for once.
That is not very often they agree with
anything, but I think even in this case they agree with us that those phony
make‑work jobs, the Jobs Fund of the former NDP government‑‑a
bunch of smoke and mirrors, Madam Chairperson.
That is something we will not do.
What we will do is, we will work to ensure
that that economy is a real economy, that there is real wealth being created,
there is real benefit coming out of the community for the benefit of the
community out of that economy and that it will not take a whole bunch of
borrowed money from New York, Switzerland and wherever else in the world that
wants to provide money to us because the money will be generated from within.
The efforts of the people here generating
a real advanced decent economy will be able to generate the monies sufficient
to operate that economy. Capital will be
required from time to time, there is no question, Madam Chair, and there is
nothing wrong with capital per se being invested from outside of our province
or from individuals and so on.
Certainly, that is where we are headed and that is something I think all
of us will want to strive and work toward.
Mr. Penner: Thank you very much for that answer. It is certainly gratifying to see that this
province will finally be fiscally responsibly run, and that we will have the
kind of economic base that will allow us to continue the kind of work that the
honourable member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger) certainly was very involved in,
when he was the member of now part of the constituency of Emerson, and the
construction and the lobbying. I guess he was one of the key lobbyists for the
construction of a seniors housing unit in St. Malo.
* (0050)
I want to say to the House that those of
you that have not been to St. Malo to take a look at the kind of seniors
residence that is so ably managed by Lorette Courcelles and her staff in St.
Malo should go out and have a look at it.
Because it is certainly a tribute to a very small community, and an
organization that was headed up by Lorette Courcelles that got involved in
building seniors facilities and care facilities for their seniors in their
town. It has really become quite a major
industry in that town, employing some 45 people on a permanent basis in that
town, and providing of course facilities for those seniors of the Francophone
community in that area.
We certainly want to recognize the efforts
that the community over there has put into not only running the facility but in
fact providing the initiative and encouraging Manitoba, and Canada Housing
Corporation to provide the funding and financing for that project. It is also recognizable at this time‑‑and
maybe we could indicate our support and appreciation through the ministers of
Health and Family Services in ensuring that the ongoing funding is there for
the operation of that facility. Because
would it not be for the fiscal responsibility that the Minister of Housing (Mr.
Ernst) talked about just a few minutes ago, we would not be able to afford to
operate facilities like that in this province.
That would, of course, lead to the migration of many of those members of
the Francophone community into other facilities.
I think that it is important that we
recognize the ability of those people to stay within their communities and to
allow their families to be close to their senior members and to be able to help
care for them in a setting that is being promoted now by our government. The home care aspect of health care I think
is an admirable one, and the expansion that the Minister of Health has talked
about for quite some time in this House, which has been construed by the
opposition members on many occasions as being a cut in seniors' care has in
fact been a major expansion in providing the kind of care that seniors want in
their own home towns and in their home settings, and is encouraging the
involvement of family members in caring for their families as it used to
be. It is bringing families closer
together and helping unite them, and helping unite many of these smaller
communities to a great degree.
So I want to say, Mr. Minister, that I
commend you and your department for being involved in those kinds of facilities
and communities such as St. Malo.
Mr. Ernst: Madam Chairperson, the whole question of
housing, what does housing mean for citizens of our communities? On the whole question of housing, do you
house them when they are ill, do you house them when they are well, do you
house them when they are in need, do you house them when they are well‑off? All of those issues surrounding the question
of housing people are something that‑‑well, philosophical though it
may be, it is in fact a part of the way our government approaches these things.
It is a part of the way that the collective well‑being of Manitobans in
general, I think, is something that our government certainly wants to work
toward.
We have the Minister of Health (Mr.
Orchard) delivering health care services in the community. We have not only services being delivered in
institutions in the community, we have it being delivered by home care in the
community, we have it being delivered by services to seniors in the
community. We have a wide variety of
programming to be delivered from the health care side to ensure those people
can stay in their communities, be well in their communities, receive medical
services in those communities while they are being housed in those
communities. So the question of housing
is a little more than just simply providing a roof over someone's head.
I think I used the examples of
From my colleague the Minister of Family
Services (Mr. Gilleshammer), for instance, again, it is not just a question of
housing people with a roof over their head, it is a question of delivery of
those assistance services, child welfare services and other areas of Family
Services that provide for the well‑rounded well‑being of the
communities in our province.
And it is the services of the Minister of
Agriculture (Mr. Findlay), the services of the Minister of Rural Development
(Mr. Derkach), the services of the Minister of Highways (Mr. Driedger), and the
Minister of Culture and Heritage (Mrs. Mitchelson), and the Minister of
Government Services (Mr. Ducharme), and Labour, and Justice and all members of
the government. Every single member on
this side wants to ensure that those collective services delivered to the
citizens of
So it is not just a question, Madam
Chairperson, of putting a roof over somebody's head. It is not just a question of providing a door
and a window. It is not just a question
of providing a row of housing units somewhere in some nondescript kind of
situation, not just buildings, but homes, homes for people in Manitoba, those
homes that have the collective services of the government available to them so
they can enjoy and benefit from them, so they can have an opportunity to live,
to truly live comfortably, to truly allow them to have that opportunity to have‑‑
An Honourable Member: We probably have the best housing in the
world here in
Mr. Ernst: As the Minister of Culture has indicated, we
do have some of the best housing in the world.
Especially in rural
Let me tell you, Madam Chairperson, 20 of
those units will be fully subsidized in their proposal. The rest are market units. The people of
Steinbach are prepared to put up cash money on the table to develop those
units. Can you imagine the construction
impact of a 68‑unit construction project in Steinbach? It is going to be extremely significant.
It is going to provide a whole bunch of
jobs in terms of the general construction, subtrades. It is going to provide the construction
material supply industry, concrete, plumbing, drywall, all kinds of building
materials that are necessary in these kinds of projects.
I am hopeful that within the next short
period of time we will be able to deal with that issue in conjunction with the
1993 housing program. I am hopeful that we
will be able to approve that project, because these people are very dedicated.
What we get is a double whammy. We get 20 units of new public housing, social
housing for those who cannot afford it but who can live in the same building
and in the same context as they live presently.
I mean, they are living in the community now, but they may not be able
to afford the life‑lease concept which is funding the balance of the
projects.
But there will be 48 of them that will,
and we get the construction, the tax revenue and everything else associated
with the housing program from 48 units while only having to provide 20 units of
subsidized housing, another benefit we talked about earlier with the projects
at Neepawa, Carman, Charleswood and Transcona and so on. We have opportunities for housing, Madam
Chairperson, and it all germinated from a little idea in Niverville.
Madam Chairperson, it is something that I
think all of us are kind of interested in, and as I see the hour is rapidly
approaching one o'clock, perhaps it is enough.
Madam Chairperson: Is that the will of the committee?
The hour being 1 a.m., committee
rise? Pass the salary?
1.(a) Minister's Salary $10,300‑‑pass.
Resolution 30.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty
a sum not exceeding $2,922,000 for Housing, Administration and Finance, for the
fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1994.
This concludes the Estimates for the
Department of Housing. The hour being 1 a.m., committee rise.
Call in the Speaker.
IN SESSION
Madam Deputy Speaker
(Louise Dacquay): Order, please.
The hour being after 10 p.m., this House is adjourned and stands
adjourned until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow (Tuesday).