VOL. XLV No. 15B - 8 p.m., MONDAY, JUNE 12, 1995

Monday, June 12, 1995

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Monday, June 12, 1995

The House met at 8 p.m.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

(Continued)

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

(Concurrent Sections)

INDUSTRY, TRADE AND TOURISM

Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Good evening. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. The committee will be resuming consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Industry and Tourism.

When the committee last sat it had been considering item 3.(a)(1) on page 99 of the Estimates book and on page 35 of the yellow supplement book.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): The minister cited some statistics in regard to tourism. I would be very interested in trading numbers, because I am quoting from StatsCan International Travel catalogue 66-001P March 1995 received June 12, '95. It shows in the first quarter of '95 a small gain in automobile visits from the United States, actually in the month of March '95, but in the first quarter it shows a fall of 5.2 percent, first quarter over first quarter, and a total reduction of 1.5 percent, not that those are big numbers but they are clearly different from the numbers that the minister was putting on the record.

So I would like to just table this and see if these numbers are in some way not representative of what the minister was quoting from, not that I think they are horribly bad, but they do not indicate an improvement year over year.

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): The numbers I had quoted were '94 over '93 of a 10 percent increase in the United States. Those are the numbers that I was quoting from.

Mr. Sale: You would confirm these numbers that the most recent quarter shows a slight reduction, certainly not an improvement.

Mr. Downey: I will not confirm them until I have an opportunity to have the department give me a response. I will do that.

Mr. Sale: Could I ask the minister? There is quite a section on the role of tourism services in promoting Winnipeg as a site for major meetings, conventions, events. It has puzzled us.

It has puzzled me why the--I do not know--it almost seems like a forced choice of The Forks as a site for the new entertainment complex when the one reason for coming downtown would be to make the Convention Centre viable for more major events, not that I am in favour of an arena there, but if we are going to have one anyway, I wonder what the rationale is for not getting some synergy between the Convention Centre and the arena which could clearly then put us in the major leagues of being able to host the largest events when we are now on a tier just below that where we cannot host the really big events, at least in one site.

Mr. Downey: I guess, at the outset, as far as I can see, I cannot see where the member has given any evidence that that in fact would be the case. I do not have any statistics that would in fact--or any numbers that would demonstrate, even though there would be two facilities, that we would not be able to host major attractions, even though location of the entertainment complex is not that far away.

What would give him to believe that there would be an inability to host major functions, even though they are not directly connected?

Mr. Sale: Well, I do not want to get into an unproductive exchange on this. I am really wondering whether there were any data that showed that it did not make a difference. I would just say on the face of it, the access to hotels, the access to the skywalk system, the downtown shopping and the fact that you could use the arena and the Convention Centre efficiently together, I am sure the minister has been to many more big conferences than I have, but I have been to a few and when you have to travel between sites for parts of the event--even though it is only probably perhaps in the order of a kilometre or slightly less--that makes very inefficient scheduling and makes it more difficult.

I do not have any hard evidence--I do not think anybody does--but I wondered why the easy choice of The Forks as opposed to the Convention Centre which at least would have some rationale for strengthening the downtown.

Mr. Downey: I am sure we could get into a prolonged debate as to the pros and cons of, first of all, coming downtown at all, and that was certainly an issue that was debated. There are those who would feel it should not be downtown, that it would be better in an outlying area. I guess, basically, it was based on the final decisions of the people through MEC, I believe it was, in their work to bring it to the stage it is at, and that was the conclusion which they came to.

I think there is also a cost factor which benefits the current site that has been determined. I do not have the specifics on that. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) would be better asked that. But I think that there is a cost benefit to where it currently is being proposed.

* (2010)

Mr. Sale: I say again in a nonpartisan way to the minister that if those data were made available and they were in any sense persuasive, I suspect people would have less trouble with a decision, but there has been an unwillingness to publish the Coopers & Lybrand report and the underlying data, the Lavalin Report, which undergirded that study.

So far as I am aware, there are no data in the public sector that suggest that either the Convention Centre or The Forks is superior to the other or that give any reasons for either site in a cost-benefit sense. So, if such data are available or could be made available, I am sure we would be really happy to study it.

A small question before we move on to the next. Partly by happenstance and partly because I asked myself, I watched some very frustrated tourists in the front of the building here. They were Americans and, like many people, they had come and seen the tourist info sign and were enjoying the beautiful building and they asked for a map of the city. The person said, oh, we do not have maps of the city here. I said, that is really weird; why would we not have maps of the city here? He was loath to tell me specifically, but he said that there had been some kind of kafuffle over who had access to what maps and maybe City Hall wanted people to go down there to get their city maps, so they would go to City Hall.

It seems to me these are the kinds of silly little things that annoy visitors. The guide was very polite and handled the people very nicely and suggested that the maps were available at the tourist information centre at The Forks. Again, that is not good business to say to people, well, yes, you are in a tourist information centre, but you are not in the right tourist information centre. You have to go to The Forks.

Would the minister undertake to look into that silly little problem and see if we can have a comprehensive Winnipeg and environs promotion awareness in the Leg? It certainly should be province-wide, as well, but I understand that there is some minor altercation between the city and somebody on this issue.

Mr. Downey: I thank the member for raising it. It seems pretty petty to me. Everybody who is working in tourism should be promoting all parts and regions of the province and it should not be a matter of sending people to another system. All material should be available at all stations and all points promoting city, promoting province, promoting all the different events. I can appreciate the member's concern and we will be finding out what the difficulty is.

Mr. Sale: Thank you very much. I would appreciate that. If the minister could let me know as soon as he can sort it out, it would dissuade me from raising it in the House. I would rather not do that, because it is one of the smaller items in the universe.

I am sure the minister's staff and the minister are aware of the Canadian Tourism Research Institute and the travel outlook. Is the 1995 travel outlook out?

Mr. Downey: We will have to check for the honourable member.

Mr. Sale: Thank you. If it is out, I have not seen it yet. I have only the '94. I noticed in their Manitoba outlook for '94, they felt the travel activity will grow at rates slightly below the national average.

I wondered whether that was, in fact, the experience in '94 in an overall sense.

Mr. Downey: We will get that information for the member.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 3.(a) Tourism Initiatives (1) Tourism Services and Special Projects (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $631,300--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $625,800--pass.

(2) Marketing and Promotions (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $490,500--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $3,022,400--pass; (c) Grants $75,000--pass.

(3) Tourism Development (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $426,600--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $277,400--pass.

(4) Canada-Manitoba Partnership Agreement in Tourism (a) Other Expenditures $7,100--pass; (b) Grants $111,800--pass.

(5) Grant Assistance - Manitoba Horse Racing Commission $3,394,000.

Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I note that the Liberal member is here from St. Boniface, and this was an issue during the election. Are there any indications about whether the track which was sold, I believe, essentially to the workers at the track--what was the name of the group that bought it?

An Honourable Member: The Jockey Club.

Mr. Sale: Pardon? The Jockey Club. Okay. I know nothing about this area.

I am just asking the minister: Is it now on a firm footing or is it still at the point where it is marginal and at risk?

Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, I do not know why the member made reference to the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) as it relates to the track. The track is not anywhere near his riding. It may be closer to his former leader--[inaudible] That might be what you are referring to.

An Honourable Member: That was what I was referring to.

Mr. Downey: Oh, okay, I am a little slow tonight, and other times.

Mr. Sale: Pass.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable member to complete his answer.

Mr. Downey: Pass.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: (5) Grant Assistance - Manitoba Horse Racing Commission $3,394,000--pass.

3.(b) Health Industry Development Initiative (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $484,200--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $270,300--pass; (3) Grants $750,000--pass.

(c) Aerospace Industries Development Initiative (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $274,300.

Mr. Sale: In this section, I wonder if you could just bring us up to date in an overall sense. I want to talk about the airport under this heading. I think we agreed earlier that this was, at least, a reasonable place to do it.

Just so the minister does not feel that I am sandbagging anybody, I have met with some staff of the project and I met with the chair of the board of the Winnipeg airport authority. I attended their meeting in Winnipeg, downtown, a few weeks ago along with some members of the government side of the House, specifically, the Minister of Labour (Mr. Toews).

Is the minister generally brought up to date on a regular basis of the state of the negotiations with Canada?

Mr. Downey: I would have to say generally kept up, but I will conclude that the staff are on a regular basis kept up to speed.

Mr. Sale: Could I ask the minister whether there are particular concerns that are of real concern to this government, in terms of the way in which Canada is handling the negotiations, the adequacy of their offers, et cetera, in terms of how the process is going at present?

Mr. Downey: I guess two points. Staff inform me there are basically two concerns. One is the delay in getting on with dealing with the agreement, and the other are the demands which the federal Department of Transport are placing on the local authorities in accepting the airports. That is a general comment.

Mr. Sale: I have to be cautious here in asking questions because apparently, and I am sure the minister is aware of this, there is a confidentiality agreement which is so onerous that some of the clauses would appear to make it constitute a breach of the agreement to reveal the clauses that are in the agreement. It is a bizarrely complex agreement on confidentiality. I am deeply troubled by that.

I am wondering how the minister is aware of it and how he feels about it.

Mr. Downey: Well, again, dealing with a public entity, it is a matter of trying to make sure that as much as possible can be fully disclosed on any actions that are taken, so I will have to further request comments from the department as to the excessive--if that is what I am getting from the member--confidentiality that is being brought forward as part of the agreement.

Again, there has to be a certain amount of public disclosure when public resources are being involved.

Mr. Sale: My understanding, Mr. Chairperson, and to the minister, is that the data, for example, that are supplied by Canada are not subject to verification; that if the data are used and are found to be wrong, that is our problem, not Canada's problem; that we have no ability to put forward alternative cases. It is rather like the fast-track proposal in the States, you either take their proposal or you leave it, but there is no ability on the part of this end to access the databases that are available to verify whether or not the case that we are being subjected to bears any relation to reality.

* (2020)

In fact, my understanding is that the first offer from the federal government was so disconnected from reality that the board simply refused it and sent it back, but they were not in a position to verify it. They simply were using their own instincts, I guess.

Mr. Downey: I guess the case the member has laid out does not seem to be a reasonable approach in a system where we would expect if a case were presented to an authority from the federal government, and you should take it or leave it seems somewhat not only heavy-handed, just is not a traditional way of doing business wherever you are coming from.

I will do an investigation, through the department, as to in fact if this--I am not questioning him. I will verify what he is saying if that is happening. I will attempt to communicate with the federal minister the concerns that are being raised and see if we can help resolve it.

I do believe the federal minister is of the mind to get these agreements in place and to get it done. I do not believe he is an individual who wants to drag these things out for the sake of dragging them out so this may be coming from an official's level. I will undertake to communicate to the federal minister if in fact evidence is demonstrated that this is the case.

Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I thank the minister for that. May I just request that the minister be cautious in how he raises this, because I do not want to jeopardize the people who have shared the concern with me. I think this is a terribly important issue for our future as a city, and we need to resolve the process question.

I would also say to the minister that what happened, what caused at least a chunk of the delay was the change in the federal government. The new government came down with totally new, absolutely new, requirements of the transfers.

Previous airports at Calgary and Vancouver, for example, that were transferred under the idea that the federal government would be no worse off after the transfer than they would have been before. The new regime requires that the federal government be paid a profit on their lease from Day One of the transfer, that this has to be profitable.

Well, in Winnipeg's case, that is a very severe constraint and will likely require passenger tolls at the gate, which I am sure you have paid in Vancouver and Calgary--require tolls of a substantial level just to pay the operating profit requirement let alone to do what the tolls are really supposed to do, which is to pay for new runways and infrastructure.

I hope the minister will take a real interest in this issue and will attempt to get it on track in a way that does not wind up with us holding a rather leaky bag.

Mr. Downey: I will proceed with caution.

Mr. Sale: I want to raise questions at some point, and I am not sure where the right place to do it is around--it has been on the back burner for a long time, but the proposed potash development. Where would be appropriate?

Mr. Downey: Any time.

Mr. Sale: Well, then, let us do it now. Can the minister update the committee on the current status of the long-term plan which may, or may not, result in a potash mine in the Russell area?

Mr. Downey: I do not want to overstep my bounds, but I will attempt to just give a brief overview. I do not believe there is any funding that comes from the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism on this project. It will fall more with the Department of Energy and Mines. The specific details of it, I can suggest that is where he gets his information.

However, I can just give a quick comment as it relates to industrial development and have to say that, as a department responsible for Industry, Trade and Tourism, we are extremely anxious to see the project proceed in the Russell area. I know there has been a considerable amount of 3-D seismic work carried out, a site location for the proposed shaft and considerable work done as it relates to preliminary preparation.

I am also aware that potash values have improved substantially with the improvement in the agriculture prices throughout the world, and it has I think encouraged the partners which we are involved with to move as aggressively as possible to do it.

Again, the economics of it have to be there, and we hope that is in fact within the reach of the industry. I said at the outset, because of my previous knowledge and my previous responsibilities in that department, I have met with the partners of the province, a French company, and the last time that I discussed with them, there were indications that they were planning to proceed as the market turned around and as the plans unfolded on a normal basis. So my feeling from Industry, Trade and Tourism is it certainly is a major job creator; it is a major wealth provider for the province and should be done on a reasonably planned basis.

The details of any current situation would be more appropriately asked in the Department of Energy and Mines because they are actually the project leader as it relates to the development.

Mr. Sale: I thank the minister for that background on it. I do not remember whether we have done Energy and Mines yet or not--I guess we have not, so we will pursue that there.

Again, I think this illustrates why, if it were possible, it would be good to pull together all of the industrial development questions under one broad ministry that has them in place, because the other area I wanted to explore in regard to that was the degree to which transportation might be at risk because of branch line abandonment.

I do not know the exact site of the mine. I remember it from a map, but I do not know it exactly. Is it on a main line? As far as I recall, there is not a main line through that point. It is a branch line.

Is the government concerned about this issue in terms of the line that serves Russell and the surrounding area?

Mr. Downey: I am going by recollection, but I do not think it is too far away from a main line.

Mr. Sale: I cannot recall the exact location, but it just I think illustrates how important the overall transportation strategy is in an industrial development strategy. I think we would welcome a closer integration of those strategies.

I want to ask some questions about a project. Here, I do not in any way want to embarrass the Chair, but he may want to make an observation on this from the Chair because I believe that one of the signatories to this is your brother. Am I right?

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: I am not sure what you are talking about.

Mr. Sale: I am talking about Moosehorn Supply and their request for support in terms of waste processing.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Just a comment from the Chair and from the MLA for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), I do not know anything about the document you have in your hand. I know my brother has been in the Legislative Building a couple of times in the last number of months, but that is what I know about it.

So you can proceed as you wish.

Mr. Sale: For the record, I am not in any way suggesting that it is a problem, but I wanted--not anybody to be sandbagged by the idea that your brother is one of the signatories to this letter.

The company, Mr. Minister, is called Moosehorn Supply. They have the Canadian rights to an American waste-processing company called Swis Corporation. I believe that Mr. Cummings has received this information as Minister of Environment, but it is also an

industrial development proposal.

Very briefly, the proposal is to take waste at the tipping site and do the separation of recyclables, compostables and combustibles at the actual tipping site and to manufacture a heavy condensed brick which I guess would be like a peat brick probably, is what it would look like, that could be burned in conventional boilers as long as they had a fly-ash system.

Swis manages a plant like this in the States and will shortly be opening a large plant. This company is talking to Brandon and Portage la Prairie, but they have not felt that they have gotten reasonable response from the province. It may partly be because the WRAP system, recycling program, is not fully sorted out yet.

But I wonder if the minister is aware of this proposal. If he is not, then I would get them to supply him with the information, but I would just see if his officials or he recognizes it. I presume it might come in under MIOP or MIRI.

Mr. Downey: The first comment is that I am sure, Mr. Chairman, that--and you have clearly indicated--you are not aware of this. I do say, though, I am sure that if he is like his brother, he is a very fine gentleman.

To answer more directly, he may have had contact with the Department of Rural Development, but I am not aware from discussions with the staff--I do not believe we have seen a copy of this proposal before. However, we will have a discussion with the Department of Rural Development and also the Department of Environment to see at what stage it is at. So if there is any assistance that might be able to be brought forward to further help look at the project at least, then we will discuss it with the other departments.

* (2030)

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: I would like to say something further here. I did not want it to sound like I did not know what my brother was doing as far as the business was concerned, okay. I did not know what this document, and so on, was. That is all.

Mr. Sale: I thank the minister for that. Could the minister indicate who the right person to direct the inquiry for Mr. Sexsmith and Mr. Sveinson would be?

Mr. Downey: Because it falls within an environmental initiative, we would have it proceed to go to Valerie Zinger who is the managing partner of the environmental branch.

Mr. Sale: Of your department?

Mr. Downey: Yes.

Mr. Sale: Okay. I appreciate the minister directing that.

Under the Canada-Manitoba Communications Technology Research and Industry Development Agreement, which must be one of the longest names on record, could the minister indicate what that agreement is covering and what the current state of the agreement is? Is it a five-year, three-year?

Mr. Downey: It is a five-year program of which the province has put $5 million forward and the federal government have put $5 million forward?

Mr. Sale: What stage is the program at, what year and what are its current goals and achievements?

Mr. Downey: We are in the final stages of the agreement. We are in the last year of it at this particular time--oh, I am sorry, it expires in '96, as I have indicated. So it is in the final stages.

The objectives are to try and put forward a nucleus of new technology as it relates to the whole communications field, as it relates to--what are some of the examples--new styles, methods of purchasing and ordering for the general public, a matter of analysis of the industry. It is also the funding for TR Labs which is the major research component which falls within this agreement.

I have to say that I think it has demonstrated some fairly positive results. It also has the capability of major industry capabilities which fall within this agreement.

Mr. Sale: Is it anticipated that this will be renewed or is this a one-time?

Mr. Downey: I think the member has probably heard from the federal government the same message that we have, that it does not look very hopeful for federal-provincial agreements. The federal government have given notice that we not anticipate any new agreements as per agreements like this.

We have indication that the tourism agreement probably will not be re-entered into or a new one developed. We are of the same feeling on this one, although I am not aware of any official notification. We are assuming, and one should not do that, but we are assuming that with the manner in which the federal government have been reducing funds to the provinces, we are not expecting any great things to be carried on as it relates to agreements like this.

Mr. Sale: I just, for the record, express my sadness that that is the approach that this federal government is taking. These are not costly agreements in an overall sense, but they lever substantial

improvement in the knowledge base, they lever improvement in services, and because Canada is involved, they cross-fertilize from province to province and share help in that dissemination of useful information across the country. I am sorry that our federal government no longer sees these kinds of things as priority activities in their current state.

Could the minister explain--again my rookie lack of knowledge here. What is TR Labs? What does it stand for and what do they do?

Mr. Downey: Basically the work that is carried out by TR Labs is to carry out work prior to commercialization, precompetitive research work. Before industries would spend a lot of capital commitment to a new initiative, it is a joint effort between industry and the federal-provincial governments to try some of the technology before it goes right into full commercial application. It removes some of the risk as it relates to the investment that will be expected. Basically, what it does is it also helps to put in place building blocks for the telecommunications industry. We believe that it has carried out a very meaningful role. In fact, I think it is leading the industry in Manitoba, in the country, as it relates to work that they have done.

Mr. Sale: This, too, Mr. Chairperson, is an area where there is a great deal of potential for people tripping over each other. I think of the critical role of distance technologies for education at all levels, particularly secondary and post-secondary, the potential in terms of industry, the need for easy access to the various databases that come through the Internet and other nets. I take it that this must be more hardware-related in its research, solid-state devices, switching devices. Is that the sort of thing this is?

Mr. Downey: That is correct. I think it is a good example of the government, industry and Academe working together to produce the kinds of hardware that will be needed in the whole telecommunications industry. It is interesting some of the spin-off technology that develops from the work they are doing that can be applied, for example, in the agricultural industry.

If he has the opportunity, I would suggest he should tour TR Labs. It is certainly most enlightening as to the work that they are doing.

Mr. Sale: Could the minister tell me whether MTS, the telephone system, has a direct involvement in this?

Mr. Downey: The answer is yes.

Mr. Sale: Presumably, this area falls under this ministry, but obviously there are at least four other ministries that would have a direct interest here in terms of the Minister responsible for the Telephone System (Mr. Findlay) per se, the Minister of Education (Mrs. McIntosh), yourself. If I think for a minute, there is likely another major ministry. Agriculture may well have an interest here.

Is there a mechanism or is this the mechanism for co-ordinating the government's activity in this area?

Mr. Downey: The Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism is the mechanism for the co-ordination.

Mr. Sale: You are the lead area.

I have another question, which may be in the wrong place, Mr. Chairperson. Under the Environmental Industries Development Initiative, does that initiative have responsibility for the Hazardous Waste Corporation?

Mr. Downey: The answer to that question is no, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Sale: That then is under Environment, is it, entirely?

Mr. Downey: The answer to that question is yes.

Mr. Sale: Thank you very much. The last item there then is, does this group have anything to do with the Hazardous Waste Corporation?

Mr. Downey: Not a direct relationship.

Mr. Sale: My colleague from Swan River has a couple of questions under the agri-food area.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Chair, the whole area of agri-food development and expansion to value-added jobs for the agriculture industry is very important as we have changes in the agricultural industry right now. One of the areas of diversification that has been talked about is the ethanol production. I wonder whether this department has been looking at expansion of the ethanol industry and whether there has been work done to develop markets.

We see the initiative in the United States where they are shifting over to more blending of ethanol, and we hear that there are markets for that production. I would like to ask the minister whether any research has been done on that and what he sees as the potential for this industry.

Mr. Downey: The answer to that question is yes. There is a tremendous potential for that industry.

Ms. Wowchuk: There is ethanol being produced at the present time at Minnedosa. Does the minister see any expansion in the province, and where does he see the possibility of expansion of the ethanol industry in Manitoba?

Mr. Downey: The answer is yes to that question. I see it taking place on the western side of the province.

Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chair, I do not know whether this is the right place to ask this question. As the minister well knows, there is an interest in ethanol production in my part of the province, in the Swan River constituency. One of the things that this is hinging on is the expansion of natural gas. We had a proposal put forward by this government with the federal government. Unfortunately, that proposal failed. It probably failed in the minds of people in the area because of some of the details of the agreement, the high sign-up rate, a need for a 60 percent sign-up, and as a result that requirement could not be met.

* (2040)

There are other parts of the province that are looking for expansion of natural gas. Since the agreement with Centra has not been successful in some areas, I wonder if the minister can indicate what other options will be available to communities such as the Swan River area that are in desperate need of an alternate energy source.

There are other areas. I believe there was one in the southern part of the province, maybe in the minister's constituency, where the people were not able to meet the requirements of that agreement, so it is going to mean that if the government is sincere about expanding natural gas, they are going to have to look at other options. I wonder whether the minister could outline what he proposes to do, or his government proposes to do, in those areas where there is a need but the agreement that was signed under the infrastructure program was not satisfactory.

Also, since that agreement failed, is the money that was in the infrastructure program for natural gas still available if another program is designed?

Mr. Downey: I have been holding back, Mr. Chairman. I have to say I have been restraining myself. The member has now gone and triggered--I feel a speech coming on that I am going to have to give about this whole ethanol business. I do appreciate the questions. I will elaborate a little bit, first of all on the ethanol industry and what in fact I believe can take place.

First of all, Mr. Chairman, there have been several organizations or companies, both locally and other areas, actively looking at the potential for further ethanol production in Manitoba.

I first of all should say, though, that I was pleased between 1977 and 1981 to be part of a government that brought in a measure which encouraged a plant at Minnedosa that was, in fact, not operating any longer--an old distillery and Mohawk Oil and Gas corporation came along, and through planning and commitment put forward the kind of capital needs that were necessary to start up the plant at Minnedosa known as Mohawk. That has been in operation ever since. There has been an incentive put forward by the Province of Manitoba which encouraged that to take place. I was pleased that the previous administration to ours did not remove that, and of course it has maintained jobs and using agricultural product to produce alcohol that you drive not drink.

I would further suggest that some of the recent changes in the U.S. have encouraged expansion of ethanol operations in the U.S. I think some of the most recent changes that have taken place in Canada in Canadian law will further enhance ethanol production in western Canada. Again, it has to be based on demand. I understand that the demand continues to grow.

I would invite or encourage anyone who is interested in the kind of an overall program that supports agriculture and also supports the consumer and also supports clean environment, there is an operation at Lanigan, Saskatchewan, where there are several thousands of litres of ethanol produced. The by-product of that ethanol, both the liquid and the mash, goes into a several-thousand-head feedlot at the same location. It is owned basically by the producers of that area, and it is quite an impressive operation.

I should also say that there have been recent changes at the Mohawk plant at Minnedosa where they have introduced a new process where they extract some of the higher-valued proteins off of the grains before they use it for the alcohol production. That is now going into cereal production for human consumption, which adds further value to the grain that is being used. Again, the product that is left is good for the production of alcohol. After the alcohol is taken off, it again is maintained or used for livestock feed. It is an excellent process, and I think what they are doing at Mohawk will show the way for other plants in Canada.

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I should also state that one of the things you need in a community to put a plant like that in place is access to natural gas. The unfortunate thing in this country is that we have not seen the expansion of natural gas to communities, whether it is the Swan River Valley, southwestern Manitoba, or in areas of South Central or Interlake, in fact, there is no natural gas.

We have proceeded and it is basically being led by the Department of Rural Development, because it is a Rural Economic Development Initiative, one which we saw as an opportunity to use the Canada-Manitoba Infrastructure program working with Centra Gas. Again, because some of these areas are somewhat distant from current gas hook-ups in Manitoba, it would take substantial amounts of resources to make that connection.

To my knowledge, there have been some off-and-on decisions made as it relates to southwestern Manitoba. I know there is supposed to be a meeting in Killarney tonight where the council are deciding whether they are proceeding or whether they are not. It is my understanding, as well, if they do not proceed that it, in fact, could put in jeopardy that whole project.

Initially, if the member remembers, there were some 23 communities that were put forward under the Infrastructure Agreement. I think with those that decided not to proceed and go ahead, there were something like 17 left, but in the interim another community came forward under a co-op mechanism known as Gladco, in the Gladstone-Austin area, that are doing it a different way through the formation of a co-op using infrastructure money and doing it based on forming their own company, not using Centra Gas. So there are basically a couple of alternatives that are out there.

I, quite frankly, hope that they proceed. I think that until you have a cheaper source of energy that you need for ethanol production, that it just makes it impossible for Swan River to have one. It makes it impossible for southwestern Manitoba or any area that does not have access to natural gas. So when you talk economic development for these communities, the first thing you have to do is put in the infrastructure and the kinds of capabilities that would allow them to do that. Anything you need that takes high energy usages, natural gas is the most effective way.

I know in Dauphin, for example, they have an alfalfa dehydrating plant. Without natural gas it could not operate. We know that in Arborg they are proposing to put in an alfalfa dehydrating plant. Without it, they cannot move on it. So you are really in a position without having natural gas service to these communities, basically, unless they have another source of energy--they have hydroelectricity but it is for high usages and in these kinds of operations it just is not competitive. I might as well be blunt about it. It just cannot happen. So that is why the desire is to move and put natural gas in.

As it relates to Swan River--and I think the most recent situation is that they have been asked for a business plan and asked for resolutions from their communities to come forward. Again, Swan River is not unlike the southwest part of the province. There are alternatives as to bringing gas to Manitoba from Saskatchewan. One of the problems there is that we need National Energy Board authority and, again, it costs money to bring it from Saskatchewan to Manitoba. I think in Swan River's case it is something like $2.3 million. In southwest Manitoba, it is in excess of $4 million to $6 million. So it is a substantial cost.

The initial plan, I have to say, was that Saskatchewan we thought were prepared to bring the gas to the border without any initial cost. They put gas into Montana and the National Energy Board said the people of Saskatchewan could not subsidize putting gas into another region. They could not back subsidize it into Saskatchewan. That threw a curve ball at us in Manitoba and Saskatchewan Energy TransGas decided they would not proceed based on that ruling. Now that maybe should be challenged. It is a consideration which should be considered.

I say, particularly, though, in the meantime, Centra Gas made a proposal to come from a northern hook-up at the Rapid City position which would have accomplished taking gas into the southwest corner. Swan River, I believe, still would have to make an agreement with Saskatchewan to bring the gas in. There is a substantial cost to that, as well. The member says if that fails, is there a way of which we can maintain the infrastructure money. I think there is a point at which there has to be a decision made as to whether or not the project can proceed. If the communities are not able to generate some support locally and put money forward then it is pretty hard to proceed.

Again, though, getting back to the question about ethanol and developing more ethanol plants, it is absolutely critical to have a gas line supply to do that. One could make reference to other major energy users, again, for further processing that has to take place. You have to have the additional support for energy supply.

I have been a very strong supporter all my political years in trying to enhance and make sure rural gasification is provided. I thought we were well down the road. We know we will have some communities signed, get it, because some of them have already agreed to it. I think it was the southern part of the province, I think Rosenfeld is it, that is going to get hooked up. Several smaller communities in the central region are in fact benefiting under the infrastructure program and are proceeding.

Some of the larger cost areas are having some difficulties, because the municipalities either feel they cannot afford it or they do not see there is enough economic benefit to do it, and there is controversy within their own communities as to whether they should proceed. I would hope, and I say this genuinely, they could agree that at least they could see the benefits because, to me, without it, it will be hard for those communities to continue to grow and expand.

Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chair, the minister said that Swan River would have to negotiate with Saskatchewan to get that energy. I guess the question is: Is it not the Manitoba government that would have to negotiate this with the Saskatchewan government to get that energy there, or is it, in fact, the community that would have to do the negotiating?

Mr. Downey: Not necessarily the government, because if, for example, it were Centra that were doing the project they would have to negotiate with the TransGas hook-up in Saskatchewan. If the local community set up a co-op to do it, it would have to be that entity that would have to negotiate with TransGas. Again, we have offered to help, to help encourage it to happen. We have talked to the Saskatchewan government. They know what our intentions are. They know we would like to do it, but they have a Crown corporation that is responsible for the delivery of gas. It would be that Crown corporation that would be the selling agency to the Manitoba corporation that was going to deliver the gas in Manitoba.

Again, as far as movement of the product across the border, it would take a National Energy Board approval to actually do that. It should not be a problem. Where the problem comes in is if they were going to deliver it to the Manitoba border without charge to Manitobans then they say that could cause a problem.

Let me just give you my feeling about the development of the Trans-Canada Pipeline and what went wrong, and it is easy to look back and be critical. When the Trans-Canada Pipeline crossed Canada from Alberta to give our good neighbours in Ontario natural gas, I believe they should not have got a licence to do it unless they put a complete lateral system in as they moved across Manitoba. To me that would have been a minuscule cost in relationship to the overall project, and Manitoba would have developed at a very aggressive rate. Just certain communities were cherry picked because they had greater populations and could show greater profits, and that is why they got the gas to start with.

I firmly believe that in issuing any licence to go across Manitoba the national gas pipeline system should have been required to put lateral lines in as they were moving across the province. That is hindsight. How do we do it now? That is, I would hope, a common objective of the member for Swan River and also members at this table.

Ms. Wowchuk: Certainly, all of us have said on both sides of the House that if we are going to have economic development in rural Manitoba we have to have a cheaper energy source.

We talked about ethanol, and, again, I do not know whether this is an area to ask this question about other energy sources. But in Ontario there is a product where they are looking at geothermal energy. Again, that might come under Energy and Mines, but I want to ask whether there has been any research done by industry under this department to look at alternate energy sources in other areas where you cannot get natural gas, and whether this is a possible alternative as an energy source that could help communities. Or, has any work been done, and does the minister feel this is a viable route that should be explored for an ultimate energy source in areas where it appears difficult to get natural gas?

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Mr. Downey: The answer is yes. We have been in discussion with certain companies looking at further research capabilities in the whole geothermal activity, particularly one company at this stage. They were talking both to the province and to Manitoba Hydro and we were looking at the development of a plant here. At this point I can report that we have not had any positive decisions to move ahead with it, although we have been working on that kind of a project. I believe it is an excellent alternative. In fact, we have seen a lot of geothermal activity in the province through the private sector. Right now people are putting in the heat-pump systems for heating of their houses, for their livestock facilities. Again, the initial cost is relatively steep, but the long-term benefits are certainly, certainly there.

As far as generating large sources of energy for production of an ethanol plant, it just is not there. You could not produce enough energy in a form which would generate enough heat to do it, to cook the grain, that is, not to my knowledge and I am very limited. There has been some work done on it, and there is being some work done. I, quite frankly, would like to see more extensive work done on it. I know that Manitoba Hydro, in the discussions with us and this company that was looking at Manitoba for further expansion, could well have played a major role.

I thank the member for the question. Energy is critical to the future development. Manitoba Hydro is critical, and it is certainly the lowest cost power we have available to us in many communities, but it just is not low enough to compete with natural gas.

Ms. Wowchuk: This is the Agri-Food Industries Development Initiative, and there is some $283,000 that is spent. Can the minister give some indication how this money is spent? Are there labs in certain areas where testing is done on agri-food or value-added products for agriculture?

We talk about the value-added jobs that we really have to get out of our agriculture products instead of shipping everything out in the raw state as we are doing now. So I would like some information as to, where is this money spent and where is the research done?

Mr. Downey: The money that the member is referring to basically falls into the category of salaries for people working within the department and in that whole area of further food processing and development of the agri-food industry. The food test lab comes under EITC which is based in Portage la Prairie, which is a major piece of infrastructure and supporting mechanism to the food industry.

I do not disagree with the member. For example, what we are seeing happening particularly in the potato industry--that is a major growth sector which we believe will continue to grow and expand. In the pulse crop industry, whether it is cleaning, processing or packaging of pulse crops, we believe will it will be another tremendous growth area because the Asian, South American and Mexican markets are opening up at a very rapid pace.

In the whole area of crushing of oilseeds particularly, we have two very successful oilseed crushing plants in which we hope we would see expansions in that area as freight costs for raw product go on the producers. There will be alternatives that will be looked at, so we will be shipping more finished product rather than raw product.

I would hope that we could further see the enhancement of pasta processing because of the restrictions that are being placed by the Americans on the movement of durum wheat. I am upset that they do not want to have our durum wheat, but if we have to turn the durum wheat into pasta and put it in small boxes and sell it in small containers, and ship them a whole lot of jobs and value added with it, that, I am very supportive of.

Those kinds of programs and supporting activities fall under the Manitoba Industrial Opportunity Program, of which we have been involved in several agriculture food processing-related activities.

Mr. Sale: Could we spend a bit of time on the hydro issue? I know that this is not your area, but the marketing of the product is and the product is. We do not have to spend any time debating that what we are exporting is a raw material at this point or at least a very low level of finishing in it in its 60-cycle current.

We have a sale which is running out in about 10 years, I guess. The Northern States Power Agreement runs out in about 10 years. The lead time on any kind of major user of 500 megawatts is pretty significant. My understanding of our energy demands provincially for hydro is that they are not growing particularly quickly and certainly they will not absorb the Northern States Power sale.

Can the minister indicate, in whatever detail he can, the view of the government in terms of where we are going with that excess power in 2005 when the contract expires and whether we have any possibilities for moving the finishing of this material in-province instead of sending it offshore?

Mr. Downey: Again, in the sense of dealing with it in a specific department, he knows that there is a minister responsible for Energy and Mines and The Manitoba Hydro Act (Mr. Praznik), and I will leave any answers as it relates specifically to the hydro to that. But I will make a general comment, because I think it is important for Manitoba's Industry, Trade and Tourism department.

That is why we were extremely supportive and anxious to see the government, and were pleased to be part of, removing the sales tax off of hydroelectricity used in the manufacturing sector. That is a substantial amount of money that is paid in taxes and puts us in an uncompetitive position compared to other provinces. That move in itself makes our hydroelectricity basically 7 percent cheaper than it was a year ago right now.

Anyone looking at using major amounts of it, whether it is in the mineral processing, which, quite frankly, takes electricity, whether it is in the smelting of product at Selkirk rolling mills, or whether it is in the welding industry out at Versatile shops or the glass business in St. Boniface, which the member wanted some support for and got, the whole bottom line is that hydroelectricity is our major asset in this province.

Quite frankly, I believe very strongly that we need to probably move forward with a policy and programs that will encourage a lot more users of electricity in the province of Manitoba, and rather than exporting the electricity down a hydro line into the United States or selling it into Ontario--although I do also support strongly a national power grid; I think that it would be in the national interest to have a national power grid tying this country together--we would in fact be better off as a province if we could turn that electricity into jobs.

I have said earlier and I firmly believe that we have a tremendous opportunity to expand our transportation sector. We now have a major development in the two bus manufacturing plants. We have some major carriers for raw materials in the grain-hopper bottom trailers and also the materials-handling trailers. Again, these are major expansions taking place.

We also have the tractor and the farm machinery manufacturing sector where we believe we have a tremendously competitive edge with our lower costs of electricity and the dollar that is lower than the United States. We have seen our exports and our manufacturing jobs increase substantially. Again, that is what we want to drive towards.

My strategy as a minister within the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism is to further encourage the automotive industry to take a look at Manitoba to do a lot more of the work that they do, if not in building complete automobiles or that type of thing, then to build a lot more component parts here. When one looks at what is going on throughout Manitoba, we see a tremendous amount of component parts going into the automotive trade in other parts of the world, particularly in the United States.

So I am a very strong supporter of using electricity here in Manitoba to enhance our economy. We have talked over the past few months as to how we can further do that. Some of the ways in which we have done it, as I said, we have removed the sales tax off of electricity. We will be further working on policies and programs that I am hopeful will encourage the use of the electricity here in Manitoba.

When one looks at what is happening around the world, there is I think a tremendous demand going to be developed, and we will be in the most competitive position because of our low-cost, clean hydroelectric power.

Mr. Sale: I thank the minister for his enthusiasm. He and Ed Schreyer must have been good friends.

Mr. Downey: Well, after we beat him in 1977, we were better friends.

Mr. Sale: I am concerned about this because the rhetoric--and I do not want to use it. That is a nasty term. I withdraw the term "rhetoric."

The speech of the minister is fine and supportive. My question though is, what are the actual resources of the government that are being put to this task?

We have Manitoba Hydro responsible for selling its product. So they have a marketing arm over there, and they try and negotiate power sales. We have your department, this Department of Industry and Trade, responsible for an industrial strategy, so you are trying to keep some of that product available so that you can do more value-added kinds of activities with it.

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You talk about a national energy grid. I guess I do not see evidence of a clear strategy here in terms of, is the priority internal? Is the priority sales offshore? Where is the co-ordinating point? Where is the will of government to focus energy--unintentional pun--to focus the energy of the government on the question of this resource that is going to come available, and, of course, we have potential for another what, 2,500 megawatts?

Mr. Downey: I will speak as a Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism. As far as I am concerned, the major focus, and I have pointed out previously, is that we want to make sure that we maximize the use of hydroelectric power right here in Manitoba to produce value-added product.

There is a limit as to how fast that develops and grows, and I think one of the things that we have done that cuts across all departments as in a central focus, is that is we believe strongly as a government that you encourage business to develop and grow by removing taxes and to create the environment for which that industry can develop.

The biggest move that we have made to encourage the use of hydroelectricity in Manitoba was the last two budgets when the first year we took a 3.5 percent sales tax for last year and this 1st of April we removed the balance 3.5 percent sales tax. That, basically for industries that are heavy users of electricity, lowered the cost of electricity by 7 percent. That to me is a substantial benefit to encourage the use of electricity in Manitoba. That has been long requested by industry, and certainly I have been a very strong supporter of it.

The member asks for a co-ordination between Manitoba Hydro and the Province of Manitoba. Let me give him an example. We had a very close working relationship and have on projects like the Dow Corning project at Selkirk where we had a management committee in which we were both involved in the management program. That in itself was encouraging use of electricity. We were part of it as a province; Manitoba Hydro was part of it on the basis of selling more electricity.

The co-ordination which some of this activity comes to place is under the Economic Innovation and Technology Council and the Economic Development Board of Cabinet. Again, that is a co-ordinating role in which ministries come together, staff come together to further enhance and push co-ordinated policies. To me, that is the co-ordinating body.

Again, I think that we are not going to sit back, I would like to play the lead role and continue to play the role as it relates to the use of electricity; however, because Hydro is a Crown corporation, they do have a responsibility as well to be part of a marketing exercise to get out and sell their product. It is not totally up to the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism. They are an entity which should be out promoting it as well, but they have been doing it in concert with the province.

Mr. Sale: I appreciate the member's comments. Earlier in our discussion tonight we agreed that under subappropriation 10.3, there should be a transportation initiative. I just would suggest to him that maybe an (h) is also appropriate, particularly as we get closer to the expiry of that sale agreement, that there needs to be a Hydro initiative that becomes a strategic initiative for the government in order to maximize the possibility of that resource for our province.

I would also say that I think it is important that comments from the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) in regard to geothermal energy and other energy sources be highlighted because not through my own knowledge, but through those who work in the environmental areas, there is increasing concern that the flooded areas of the province were flooded for the dams. I am not evading or avoiding responsibility for whose administration was in charge when this was done. This released and is continuing to release a great deal of the carbon zinc that was in that area and the CO2 emissions from flooded areas that have been flooded for Hydro are extremely high--much, much higher than you would expect, essentially because the rate of rotting of material goes up very, very sharply.

It is not as clean and benign an energy source as we sometimes think because it does not have any waste product coming off of it as it is actually developing the electricity, but the carbon zinc problem is a very real problem in terms of global warming, so I am not sure there is such a thing as a benign energy source.

Could we move on then? I think I managed to skip over the health ones. Somehow that got by me without my realizing that we passed it. That is (b). I think we could pass that under the Minister's Salary and we can go back to (b). All right?

An Honourable Member: Sure.

Mr. Sale: We can go anywhere in the Minister's Salary. Pass.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: (c) Aerospace Industries Development Initiative (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $274,300--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $173,700--pass; (3) Grants $255,500--pass.

(d) Information and Telecommunications Initiative (1) Information Technology (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $354,800--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $95,800--pass.

(d)(2) Canada-Manitoba Communications Technology Research and Industry Development Agreement (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $61,700--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $290,100--pass; (c) Grants $678,200--pass.

(d)(3) Telecommunications Marketing (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $301,100--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $565,500--pass; (c) Less: Recoverable from Rural Economic Development Initiatives $216,600--pass.

(e) Environmental Industries Development Initiative (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $237,800--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $68,900--pass.

(f) Agri-Food Industries Development Initiative (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $283,400--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $64,300--pass.

Resolution 10.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $14,054,900 for Industry, Trade and Tourism, Strategic Initiatives, for the year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

10.4 Economic Development (a) Economic Development Board Secretariat (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits.

Mr. Sale: Could I ask the minister, he has indicated that Mr. Bessey will be leaving and I believe this is Mr. Bessey's area in terms of his chair, his role on this board, what plans are in place at this point? What is the date of Mr. Bessey's departure and what plans are in place to replace him?

Mr. Downey: The answer to the question is yes, this is Mr. Bessey's area, and it is my understanding that he will be leaving the 30th of June.

Mr. Sale: Is there any thought being given to any reshaping of this area of the government's economic development role in light of the changes that are being made in the rest of your department with the increased use of MTC? I gather the Economic Development Secretariat is a broad secretariat that really serves a number of ministries and pulls together a number of functions, but is there any anticipation of change in this role or is it going to continue as is?

Mr. Downey: I would not expect any major change to it. I would think that it has carried out a meaningful purpose, and I do not think any major change is anticipated at this particular time.

Mr. Sale: Could the minister outline the most significant initiatives that the board has currently undertaken? What are its major priorities at this time?

Mr. Downey: I know that we are supposed be done by ten o'clock, and I am not so sure whether I could get it all in on the record by that time.

Mr Chairman, let me start off by saying first of all we have carried out some major initiatives as it relates to an advisory panel on business regulations to try to remove some of the impediments to business development. It has been a major task force work area of the department to try and make sure we have removed or do not put any more regulations in place that would inhibit business activities.

Another major project which they were involved in, of course, has been the Arctic Bridge program which was a follow-up to the Premier's trip in 1991 to Russia, again trying to and enhancing the business activities between the Port of Churchill and Murmansk. Another major initiative was the $100-and-some-million expansion of Ayerst Organics at Brandon which added several hundreds of jobs to rural Manitoba and to the community of Brandon.

We have seen the development of Calwest Textile in Portage la Prairie which is a textile manufacturing plant. We have seen such activities as the development of major call centre activities to Manitoba, one of them being the Canada Post Customer Service Centre. We have also seen the development of the Faneuil initiative to Manitoba. Work was carried out by the secretariat on the Churchill Rocket Range, CN Customer Service as it relates to the telemarketing business, again, several initiatives under other activities in the call centre business of which I have referred to as Faneuil.

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Really a broad section of activities. We can talk about Louisiana-Pacific which was a major program very much involved in the overall divestiture of Manfor, The Pas and the work that was done with Repap, to bring Repap into play in Manitoba. Development in the work that was done with Monsanto to set up their world-class operating plant in Morden. Work with the North West Company to put their central distribution operation here in Manitoba.

Again, work with the Northern Hemisphere Distribution Alliance is a part of it. Again, a lot of these--they are not solely the responsibility of the Economic Development Board or secretariat but a lot of co-operative work was carried out by the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism in conjunction with them.

There are just a lot of activities that have been carried on as it relates to economic development. We also were involved in setting up the task force on capital markets which we talked about earlier. The list goes on and on, and, as I say, it has not only been the Economic Development Board and secretariat, but there has been a collaborative effort with the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism, also with Rural Economic Development.

One may say, Mr. Chairman, that it has been a team approach to the tremendous economic development and job creation in the province of Manitoba of which I have been extremely proud to have been a part of. I think it would be important to acknowledge publicly that Mr. Michael Bessey has contributed in a substantial way in his role as the secretary to the Economic Development Board and should be acknowledged for that.

I know that all members of the committee may not speak highly of him, but at least I think the majority of the government members certainly would. Again, it is important to acknowledge when work is done that it should be recognized. On the Economic Development Board, he has been the key co-ordinator as it relates to cross departmental co-ordination of which we spoke earlier. It has been a co-ordinating role. It is always interesting. It is certainly a challenging job in the area of Economic Development, but I think the basis from which we come is that the policies of this government that have been enunciated over eight years of no tax increases to the people of Manitoba.

We have made some major economic moves as it relates to the sales tax off of electricity, which I talked about extensively for the past half an hour. It has been generally a thrust of our government to create a climate that economic development can take place and then it is a matter of using the instruments of government to go out and market Manitoba in a very positive way.

I will make reference again to the unemployment numbers which were released this last weekend. It is obvious that the policies of this government are working. It is obvious that the people of Manitoba have accepted the policies of this government as they voted on April 25. If that is a nonpolitical statement or a political statement I do not give a darn; they voted and they voted to show their confidence in what we were doing.

Mr. Chairman, that is all I have to say at this particular moment.

Mr. Sale: I thank the minister and I commend him for restraining himself for so long over the last three days. It had to come out some time. We have had a very useful exchange.

My rookie philosophy in Estimates is that I do not generally try to score points in Estimates. We do that in the House, but--

Mr. Downey: That is a good philosophy, too.

Mr. Sale: --I am glad that you stuck to it for the most part.

I want to ask you about three different areas that you raised. I am glad you raised Ayerst Organics. I know there is controversy on both sides of that, but one of the issues about which I do not think there is much controversy at all is the pollution level in the holding ponds that have been created to deal particularly with the effluent, the highly concentrated ammonia effluent.

Some, I think, pretty competent people have looked at that pond and have seen it as a disaster waiting to happen in terms of the potential for breaching the containment and its proximity to the river. I am glad that with the flooding level we had this year, that it was not more of a problem.

Has the minister done anything to become more aware of the pollution level in Ayerst's effluent, and can he comment on whether the current technology that they are using is appropriate?

Mr. Downey: There were three points on which a controversy has been brought forward as it relates to Ayerst.

One was the point which the member raises, and that is the treatment of the effluent. To my knowledge, I say this, the Department of Environment is fully on top of and aware of and certainly keeping, as it should be, the discharge from the plant. I do not think there is anything untoward. I do not think there is anything improper. I think, in fact, it is within the law, the regulations that have been established. I think it is unfair, some of the manners in which the criticisms have come forward. I do not think there has been foundation for what has been publicly expressed.

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That is coming from the information that I have from the Department of Environment. I think it lacks foundation as to the criticism that has come forward as it relates to the handling and the treatment of the effluent. No one wants to see pollution, none of us, and, of course, we want to see the industry survive.

We believe it is operating in the limits which are established, and they are acceptable to society.

Number two, it is extremely unfortunate that the producers of PMU product have been unfairly maligned as to the treatment of animals. I can assure the member that is absolutely absurd.

Point of Order

Mr. Sale: On a point of order, Mr. Chairperson, the record will show that I made no comments of any kind about the treatment of animals. I restricted my comments entirely to the effluent question.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable member for Crescentwood does not have a point of order but a point of clarification.

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Mr. Downey: I appreciate that point of clarification, and I am not attributing any comments that he may have made about animals. I am saying the general criticism that has come about, and I want to stand up in defence of the producers of PMU product. They have been unfairly maligned as to the treatment of animals, and I know there have been some recent surveys and studies done that should put to rest any of that criticism as to the treatment.

The other one, of course, is the use of the product, the drug, which is derived from it, and that is in the use of Premarin. Again, to the best of my knowledge, it has been in use for some 28 years, the product, and has gone under the most severe scrutiny from the medical industry. Again, I am not aware of any evidence that it has a negative impact, but, in fact, my most recent readings and study or work that I have done on it has been very much the opposite, that it has been extremely helpful, particularly in the treatment of osteoporosis.

I appreciate the member's comments and I am not attributing them to him. I do appreciate his comments which he is saying about the lagoon. I do not accept them, but I know what he referred to. I will not add anything more at this particular time. I know the member has other questions.

Mr. Sale: The second company that I would like to ask about is Faneuil. During the election and prior to it and after it, I had a number of conversations with middle and more senior members of MTS.

At the door, I met many rank and file members of MTS. They were universally concerned about the mechanism that was used to, in effect, virtually give Faneuil a very major advantage. The members were concerned about the divestiture of assets of MTS, assets that could be made more easily profitable in the private sector, while MTS is left with some of the less perhaps desirable assets.

There is some very real concern among the workforce of MTS that the government is doing what in American terms is called a hollowing strategy. You leave the shell but you hollow out the fruit. The shell still looks all right for a while, but ultimately there is nothing inside to sustain it. The fear is that this is the strategy the government is following and that we are seeing the piece-by-piece privatization of this Crown corporation.

I think the question of privatizing or not privatizing is a valid policy question to be debated, but my sense is that the workforce, at least, fears that it is being done without debate through a gradual process of which Faneuil is the most obvious example.

Are there other pieces of MTS or operations of MTS that the government intends to transfer either to Faneuil or a similar corporation?

Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, I do not necessarily accept the member's comments as a matter of in any way eroding the effectiveness of Manitoba Telephone System. What I see is it would probably strengthen the role of the telephone corporation in Manitoba providing a marketing service for the company or with the company in partnership which gives us, I think, a leading edge on the activities in the whole telemarketing industry in Manitoba.

The commitments which Faneuil have given to the province of Manitoba will be over a period of time in addition to a thousand jobs or more. At this current time, I believe they are ahead of the commitment. Something like over 200 jobs have been established by Faneuil, which, I think, is extremely important to the province.

Again, there are conditions which have to be met, and we will make sure that it takes place. But I disagree with the individual. It is not a way in which we will be in any way eroding the Manitoba Telephone System. I think it will enhance the opportunities that the Manitoba Telephone System has to provide service to an ever increasing and growing telemarketing industry.

Mr. Sale: The minister indicates Faneuil's promise to create something in the order of a thousand jobs. Almost at the same time the Faneuil deal was announced, MTS announced intention to lay off over 1,200 people over the next few years, virtually in the same time period. So, in effect, these may be different jobs, but they are not new jobs. Can the minister provide information about how many people have been laid off from MTS while Faneuil has created its 200 jobs?

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Mr. Downey: Well, again, I do not accept the numbers. I am not aware of any announcements or any decisions by Manitoba Telephone System laying off 1,200 people. That is a number that I have never heard of before, but I will take it upon myself to check as to what the numbers of layoffs have been. It is not a promise of Faneuil to create a thousand jobs; it is an agreed-to commitment that has to be met or penalties will have to be paid.

Mr. Sale: I will supply the minister with the background announcement that I believe was made by MTS about a year ago or a year and one half ago in which it indicated its intention to streamline its overall operations by approximately that number. Can the minister assure the committee that there are no plans for further privatization of MTS at this time?

Mr. Downey: I would suggest that that question would be more appropriately asked of the minister who is responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System, although I would make a general comment. As I said in an earlier statement, what the public is looking for today is the provision of services, the best services at the best possible price. I would think, at this particular time, that the best way to judge that is in the competitive field. Again, as far as any direct plans, I cannot speak to that. That would fall within the direct responsibility of the minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System. But, again, I say, in a general statement from my position, the public is looking for service, the best possible service at the lowest cost possible price.

Mr. Sale: I thank the minister for his answer and take note of his very careful wording of the answer. Finally, could you comment on the northern hemisphere development project. We talked briefly about it earlier in the Estimates, but because it is so linked to the airport and to the rail questions, could you comment on the current status of it, if there are time lines, what those time lines might be, whether your government will be bringing forward any particular actions such as a proposal to create a customs or tariff zone?

Mr. Downey: I thought, Mr. Chairman, I dealt with that earlier today in a half-hour speech, but if I have to give it again, I can.

Mr. Sale: No, no. I just retreat in terror from a repetition of the earlier ministerial speeches, although, in the main, I think the minister restrained himself. I do not recall him answering. Perhaps this is the problem; the speech was so persuasive and long that I do not recall the content of it. What was the time line on this project, and what are the specific things that you think need to happen to realize the potential here?

Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, they are completing a feasibility study this summer as it relates to potential, I guess, profitability of the operation, who would be the potential users of it, how the different transportation sectors would develop to satisfy the market opportunities, basically, as it states, a feasibility study as to proceeding with it. Again, I am excited and encouraged by it because I believe there is an opportunity to do that.

As far as a special free trade zone area which would help assembly, adding, breaking down, cargo shipments and then redistributing them from that area, I do not believe they have pressed the federal government too hard at this particular point, but I do understand, that will be part of the overall goal which they are driving toward so that products shipped into the area would not pick up any Canadian or local tax that could be distributed from that area with the advantages of the lower cost and not having local taxes added to it.

Mr. Sale: I thank the minister for that. I think the minister would likely find that we were very supportive of that kind of a strategy in general terms, so I hope it comes to the fore. Would it be the minister's intention to release the feasibility study quickly as soon as it has been received?

Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, again, on the basis of confidentiality, I do not believe it will be ours to release. It will be in the hands of the board of directors of the NHDA, and I think, because other jurisdictions are probably looking at it as well, the same concept, that it would be in our best interests not to disclose publicly what the advantages or disadvantage of certain aspects of it are. I would think, though, if there is some information that might be helpful, I could talk to the individuals to see if there was an ability to share as much of it as possible with members of the Legislature. But, again, it is a competitive arena which we are in. There are other jurisdictions in the United States that are currently trying to implement the same kind of a concept. If that information became available, it might encourage others to do the same, and we want to be the leaders in this whole area.

Mr. Sale: I thank the minister for the answer. It is not one that I am really very persuaded by. Having worked in government, I know that the fastest way to get anything read is to stamp it "secret," and virtually the fastest way to get it leaked is to put it in a folder with something around it that says "do not open."

Those who are in the transportation industry know how these things work, and the actual data which might be being kept secret for fear of competitive advantage, I suspect that the competitors already know the data. I am really upset with the degree to which we are still possessed with the need for secrecy in government. I cannot often see the sense involved in it, and I go back to this horrid debate that we are having around an arena. Why we could not make public a study such as the Coopers & Lybrand report which attempts to look at cost benefit and has figures it, both net and gross benefit figures, I do not think anything is lost by letting some daylight shine on important policy decisions.

When the minister spoke, he said it would not be in our interest to let others know of the advantages or disadvantages. I think that it is hard to make the case that it is not in the public's interest to know the disadvantages of any public policy. Certainly, it is not in the public's interest not to know the advantages either, but I do not think we gain anything much in the public sector by trying to keep things secret, both because our attempts usually fail in the long run, even in the medium run, because plain, brown envelopes are as plentiful as rats and beavers and, secondly, because the information is usually reasonably readily available to the high-priced help that is hired to ferret it out for us in the first place. So it is well known.

I would appreciate the minister commenting on whether or not something like this ought not to be in the public interest made public unless there is something to do with Reimer Express Lines and is specifically internal to the company. I cannot imagine why the minister would not make available the project's cost benefit.

Mr. Downey: Again, it will be the property, as I understand it, of the Northern Hemisphere Alliance, and I would not have any ability to make it public. We have provided funding, along with the federal government, to carry out the study. I certainly have no reason to keep information from members of the public. To me, it looks like it will all be a positive initiative.

Again, if the people who own the study feel so inclined, I am sure that they will release it. I have told the member, if there is information which is sensitive--and it well could be sensitive to the trucking industry and individuals within the trucking industry as to how it may impact their decisions as their future planning in a competitive way--then I do not think the member has indicated that he does not particularly feel that that should be released. Again, if it is in the public interest and is not damaging to an individual organization that is developing to a particular target, I certainly have no objection to providing as much information as possible.

Mr. Sale: I am on 4.(b), the Economic Innovation and Technology Council. I have not visited this centre, so I have no questions here, but would it be reasonable for me to ask the department to give me a briefing on this council and to facilitate a tour and discussion of what they are doing? I know where they are located, but that is about all.

Mr. Downey: That would be quite likely possible.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 4. Economic Development (a) Economic Development Board Secretariat (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $551,200--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $369,300--pass.

4.(b) Grant Assistance - Economic Innovation and Technology Council $3,730,600--pass.

4.(c) Economic Innovation and Technology Fund $1,000,000.

Mr. Sale: This fund originally came from the sale of MDS. Where are we in terms of drawing down this fund? How many years is this meant to continue?

Mr. Downey: The number that has been drawn from this fund is approximately $500,000.

Mr. Sale: The appropriations for $1 million, is the minister saying that only $500,000 is being used in the current year?

Mr. Downey: The total that has been drawn down to date is about $500,000.

Mr. Sale: This is puzzling. I believe this appropriation has shown up every year for the past number of years, and you are saying that out of this appropriation, it is chronically underspent to the tune of probably a quarter to a fifth of what was budgeted.

Mr. Downey: That is correct. We have seen about $500,000 drawn down from this appropriation. Again, the Economic Innovation and Technology Council has not, I guess, seen projects that would be supportable by them, and that is the amount of money that has been used.

Mr. Sale: Can the minister comment at bit more on that? It seems puzzling that if you are trying to run a centre that is trying to incubate small business over--what is it, about a five-year period now?--that period of time, its incubation period does not sound like it is terribly positive.

Mr. Downey: What it is, it is an advisory group of approximately 30-some people who have come together with the government to make recommendations as it relates to new innovation and technology in the province. To this point, I, again, indicate to the member that they have not identified projects, in their judgement, that would require funding. We have not penalized or restricted the funding. We are of the belief that they would have in fact or can in fact find projects which they would support. So, again, it is a judgment call on people who have been appointed by government, and, again, they are conscious of the fact that they have not used all of the funds but, again, are also conscious of the fact that unless they see a project that they feel should be supported, they have not.

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Mr. Sale: I am glad they have not squandered the money, and I would not be in favour of that, but I guess I wonder, if we are spending almost $4 million a year on a staff of some 30 people, and they are unable over those numbers of years, however many it is, to come up with candidates for the very purpose for which they exist, that is, incubation of new technology, then either we have the wrong project or the wrong people or the wrong incubation going on, but it clearly is not paying off.

Mr. Downey: I should make it clear; these individuals who are on the council are all volunteers. They are all volunteering their time. The administrative costs are the ones that are identified in the budget. I can say to the member, again, I think it is legitimate work that they are doing. They are advising to the Province of Manitoba certain activities which they feel are important to the province, and the whole economy, and the whole area of innovation and technology.

I will certainly bring to their attention the discussions that have taken place at this committee. Again, there is a review process which is available to us and to them, and I appreciate the fact, the member said that he is happy they have not squandered the money. Again, I tried to make that point. If a project has not been identified that is worthy of supporting and proceeding with, they have not. Let me put it on the record. They have added valuable advice to the government in this whole area. There is process in place which, I think, has been extremely helpful, and I acknowledge the hard work and effort of the volunteers in this area.

Mr. Deputy Chairman: Item 4.(c) Economic Innovation and Technology Fund $1,000,000--pass.

Resolution 10.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $5,651,100 for Industry, Trade and Tourism, Economic Development, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

Item 5. Expenditures Related to Capital (a) Canada-Manitoba Partnership Agreement in Tourism $905,000--pass.

Resolution 10.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $905,000 for Industry, Trade and Tourism, Expenditures Related to Capital, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

The last item to be considered for the Estimates of the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism is item 1.(a) Minister's Salary $22,800.

At this point, we request that the minister's staff leave the table for the consideration of this item.

Mr. Sale: May I take the opportunity to thank the staff for the answers you have provided and to also thank them for the answers that will be provided to the questions that they have not yet responded to. Thank you very much.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 1. Administration and Finance (a) Minister's Salary $22,800.

Mr. Sale: I just want to say that I have no further questions that I want to ask. I want to thank the minister for, I think, a gracious and productive discussion. At least it was productive for me; it may not have been for him. I learned a lot, and I appreciated the tone and manner in which the Estimates were carried out.

I look forward to working with the minister, hopefully in a productive way, over the next period of time, however long that is in this area. I think it is an absolutely vital area for all members of the House to focus on as we try and grow in our own ability to do well in the kind of global climate that we both spoke of in our opening remarks. So, with that, I would to thank the minister and pass this item.

Mr. Downey: Again, Mr. Chairman, in my concluding speech, which will take a little less than 40 minutes, I would like to thank the committee members for their support and their questions and, again, thank the departmental staff for their support and input. Thank you.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 1. Administration and Finance (a) Minister's Salary $22,800--pass.

Resolution 10.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,288,100 for Industry, Trade and Tourism, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

The next set of Estimates that will be considered by this section of the Committee of Supply are the Estimates of the Department of Fitness and Sport. Shall we briefly recess to allow the minister and the critics the opportunity to prepare for the commencement of the next set of Estimates? [agreed]

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FITNESS AND SPORT

Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Fitness and Sport. Does the honourable Minister of Fitness and Sport have an opening statement?

Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister responsible for Sport): I think in view of the hour and everything else, I will dispense with any statement, and we can go right to questions.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the minister. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli), have an opening statement?

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I will make a few comments. I just want to say that I am looking forward to again being the critic for Fitness and Sport. This is an area that is near and dear to my heart, and I know that there are a number of issues that are of great concern. There are a lot of changes going on in this area with the amalgamation of the Sport Directorate and the Sports Federation. There are a number of major games, the Canada Games coming up, and the successful Pan Am Games bid that we have had, and also there are serious concerns with respect to the decrease in funding transfers from the federal government and Sport Canada.

So I just want to say that I hope the minister is going to be co-operative, and even though it is late in the day, we can spend the time that is necessary to examine both the Fitness Directorate and the Sport Directorate and ensure that these programs are going to serve the needs of Manitoba.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the critic from the official opposition for those remarks. At this time we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce his staff.

Mr. Ernst: To my left is Mr. Ted Bigelow, the Director of Sport, and to his left, Mr. Jim Evanchuk, who is the Director of Fitness.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We are now on line 1.(a) Fitness Directorate (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $134,900.

Ms. Cerilli: In reading the Expected Results for the Fitness Directorate, I have a few questions. One of the first tasks was to develop a framework for action on fitness, and I would like the minister to explain what that framework is.

Mr. Ernst: Essentially, we work with Health Canada and the other provinces in order to provide an overall framework for fitness programming. We have a very small staff associated with the Fitness Directorate--a director, one professional staff and one secretary, so it is mostly a co-ordinating role. Internally in the province we carry out activities in conjunction with Culture and Heritage regional offices, municipal recreation departments and a host of other volunteer organizations in the community.

Obviously with three staff we cannot deliver very much in terms of direct programming, so we do a co-ordinating role, provide information, provide the conduit to the federal government and so on.

Ms. Cerilli: What I am hoping to get clarified is, what is the framework for those activities? What is the framework for the collaboration between the different provinces? Is this just to outline the different programs, areas that the division is active in?

Mr. Ernst: Yes, basically you have programs like Active Living, which we do a fair bit of promotion of, both from--well, you have some of the literature there. We also address the whole question of physical inactivity and wellness surrounding the benefits of physical activity.

Ms. Cerilli: I guess the question is, what does framework mean?

Mr. Ernst: I suppose when you are dealing with the issue of fitness, there is an overall goal obviously in mind that everyone should be physically fit and have a healthy lifestyle as a result of that activity.

In terms of a framework, what can you do to reach that goal? There are a variety of programs that are involved. We spend a fair portion of the other expenditures in the department there with the University of Manitoba in terms of training fitness leaders. But it is a conglomeration, I guess, of a variety of fitness activities that we try and disseminate to the public. We do that not in an unco-ordinated but rather in a co-ordinated fashion so that you utilize the resources that are available from the volunteer sector and from the professional sector in the community as a whole, in order to try and achieve that ultimate goal.

Ms. Cerilli: I am not wanting to belabour this, so I am going to move on, but I just was hoping that I would get some sense of how this division does its planning. To me that is what framework means, how this division, given the limited staff, does its planning to do, as I said before, the ominous task of delivering a province-wide program with the limited staff that it has.

So how does it determine how to spend its time? What kind of assessments has it done?

Mr. Ernst: There has been a considerable amount of research done on the whole question of physical fitness and the benefits from it, what should be done and so on but, basically, it is a framework for action, and it is based on a number of specific strategies related to certain kinds of activities and the number of partnerships in the community, where you cannot deliver any kind of a program with three staff people, two professionals and a secretary is just not possible to do that.

So we look at a number of partnerships with volunteers in the community, with other organizations, with programs that are being run in general terms but which can be more specifically targeted, do a fair bit in terms of promotion and literature and things of that nature. We conduct forums and think tanks and other kinds of activities for people who will ultimately deliver the program in the community, in trying to assist them in preparing them to be able to deliver those programs in the community.

So those are the kinds of things that you are faced with. If you want a very nice little chart, this is how it is done and so on, like that. I do not know whether we have one, we may, but this is not haphazard arrangement. A significant amount of planning does go into this area of activity.

Ms. Cerilli: The minister has clarified that the framework has been determined to be partnerships with other agencies in providing resource material, because there is not the staff to actually deliver programs, so you are looking for other groups that you co-operate with. I am wondering if the minister could shed some light on it, how other governments in Canada, other provincial governments in Canada, have their fitness directorate function. I have been trying to get this information from other provinces to try and compare Manitoba in terms of the scope and the mandate for a fitness directorate.

I have I think said before that I would like to see this area expanded. I would like to see it more connected to preventative health. I am glad that the minister has said that there is not much that a small office like this can do in a province with more than a million people. I am wanting some kind of comparison between Manitoba and other provincial jurisdictions with regard to fitness promotion.

Mr. Ernst: The whole area of fitness, recreation and sport varies from province to province. In some it is buried in a huge department somewhere where there is limited access ministerially. When the Premier put me in charge of the Fitness and Amateur Sport Directorate, it was my choice that the staff people not report through a deputy minister or through some departmental chain, but rather report directly to me. So, as I say, it varies from province to province, but by and large it is limited resources.

Now again the Department of Health in the Province of Manitoba, for instance, has a wellness institute, and part of that, you know it is something that as the whole wellness issue in health comes to the fore that it may well be that other changes might be made, but at the moment the Fitness Directorate does carry out its specific mandate as Health brings its wellness program forward.

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I cannot really give you a specific answer. In Alberta they have 17 people and do this and that and the other thing and spend $10 million. I do not know. From what the staff advise it is fairly limited in terms of both staffing and resources in other provinces. In fact, Alberta just dumped all its sport and everything else off to a Crown corporation just recently. In other places it is contained within the Department of Health. In other

provinces, too, it can have a pretty limited scope right across the country.

Ms. Cerilli: I wonder if the minister would agree to examine what other provinces are doing in this area and see if there are any trends, specifically to make greater links with fitness promotion and the move towards health reform and preventative health.

I have other questions I was going to ask with respect to activities that this division has undertaken in trying to work with--the term is used in the mandate for the division--other stakeholders, so I wanted to see who the key stakeholders in Manitoba are, because one of the other goals for this division is to have the stakeholders integrate fitness into their planning. So I want the minister to identify who those other stakeholders are in Manitoba as well as to tell me if he would agree to look at this area across the country.

Mr. Ernst: I can say to the member for Radisson that we are in the process of looking at all the issues surrounding fitness and how it is best delivered in conjunction with the Department of Health. But we have a number of other departments as well, for instance, Active Living in the Environment is a potential stakeholder, the Department of Health, Education and Training, a number of other fitness programs run through the schools.

We had the whole question of physical education, the value of it, whether it should be mandatory or not mandatory and so on. I mean, one of our biggest problems is that when the kids walk out the door of high school somehow in a lot of cases any kind of fitness or activity related to fitness and sport and so on seems to end. How do you educate kids in school? You have to start somewhere. To look at the broad population and to say you are going to get 75 percent of them involved in an active living constant fitness program is just not going to happen.

So what you have to do is start back with the kids, and if you run them through the school program and at the end of that time when they leave school if they have imbedded in their mind that fitness is an appropriate activity for them for the rest of their life, that it is valuable for them in terms of maintaining a healthy lifestyle and ultimately their own personal health is going to benefit, that they are going to be more productive in the workplace, and all of the other benefits that result from a healthy lifestyle, then that is a very laudable objective and something that we ought to be doing.

I know that the former Minister of Education in discussions with phys ed teachers said, well, yes, phys ed will remain mandatory through Senior 2. It is important that at the end of the time when they leave high school though they at least have--it is not simply good enough any more to put 30 kids out on the floor and here is a basketball and spend an hour. You now have to train or "educate," I guess perhaps is even the most appropriate word, educate those children to the benefits of a healthy lifestyle, so when they leave school they are not simply going to forget it, that they are going to be able to maintain that healthy lifestyle throughout their adult life.

Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Chairperson, I appreciate the minister's comments, but I will break it down to two questions. First, I am wondering if the minister would consider having the directorate examine its activities in relation to the other provinces in the country, looking at the trends in this area and comparing what this division is doing as opposed to divisions similar to it in other provinces, to see if there is a move to have a greater emphasis on having fitness promotion as part of preventative health.

Mr. Ernst: Well, it is a very nice idea and so on, but we have been doing that for some time. Mr. Evanchuk has, as a matter of fact, chaired the National Fitness Committee who reviewed these kinds of programs since 1987, the last eight years. I think he is pretty familiar with what is going on in other parts of the country and what they are doing. The whole health area related, the trend is to wellness, and active living is a part of that wellness, and hence you have these kinds of programs come forward.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, I would appreciate then--like I said, I am trying to get this information from other provinces, and I will be bringing this matter up in the future, because I am concerned that, with the number of staff in a division like this, we cannot be making very much of an impact.

One of the questions I wanted to ask is: With the kind of programs that have been undertaken by this division, like the SummerActive program, the Fitweek, how does the department or the division evaluate the effectiveness of these programs, and can the minister explain what the impact of these types of programs have been?

Mr. Ernst: As part of this program there is an evaluation process built into it. We, as well, will undertake our own evaluation program provincially to determine the outcomes from this particular program.

Ms. Cerilli: I am glad to see that there is an evaluation. I am wanting to know a little bit about how that evaluation is conducted and what the outcomes of the evaluation is. There has been a similar program, the Fitweek program, which has been operating for a number of years, certainly longer than this new SummerActive and WinterActive program, so I am wanting to get some feedback on any evaluation that was done on the Fitweek program which was similar, which included materials being mailed out and a kick-off and just sort of public promotional materials.

Mr. Ernst: There was an evaluation done last year of the Fitweek program. There is a report on it. I would be pleased to provide it to you if you like.

Ms. Cerilli: Can the minister not, with the assistance of his staff, inform me what the results were now, at the committee?

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Mr. Ernst: The statistical information we do not have here, but I can tell the member that last year for instance, Fitweek was a week-long program. It is now expanded into an entire summer program to try and give people an opportunity. A lot of this is motivation oriented and so you get fired up for a week and then it kind of peters out over the summer, you go on holidays and stuff like that. So if we run an entire summer program in an attempt just to try and expand that horizon and keep people active for that entire period of time in the hopes that the motivation will continue on beyond that and ultimately will maintain a healthier lifestyle as a result.

Ms. Cerilli: So might I understand then that the report will list the number of activities that were conducted as a result of groups getting the promotional material, is that the nature of the report? Can I get some kind of indication if that is increased?

My concern is then that we do not go a step further and are never able to look at the long-term effects of any of these kind of programs, if they have actually translated into changing behaviour or if people, you know, come out to an activity one day, and then that is it.

Mr. Ernst: Ultimately, when this year's program is completed, we will have a lot more measureables from this particular program. We cannot do it obviously right now, it just started.

From prior years we do have statistical information that we can provide, difficult, unless you do a long-term study. There is an increased number of people that are maintaining a healthier lifestyle and why. What may have triggered it may not be the ongoing motivation for it. We do not really care because the goal is to keep them into a healthier lifestyle, so whatever triggers it and whatever maintains it is valuable because the outcome is valuable.

Just in general terms today, people are leading more active, more healthy lifestyles as a societal change, for whatever reason. I think they are seeing, as a result of activities of our fitness department, sport, Participaction commercials, you name it, they maintain or are maintaining a healthier lifestyle. There is, generally speaking, an increasing number of people doing that. They recognize the value of aerobic exercise for prevention of heart disease, for instance, as an example.

To say what motivates it, what ultimately sustains it, is not necessarily one thing or another. The trigger may be a program like this that they get involved for the summer and find that they are feeling better, enjoying it more and want to continue. They may get involved in one activity under the SummerActive program and may find that is sufficient to kind of motivate them to go on. Maybe it was the Corporate Challenge, last year and the year before, under the Fitweek program, that motivated them to get more active and so on.

It is difficult to say but in each of these programs they try and measure, try and evaluate to see if it has helped and does help, but in many cases no one will ever know. It depends on the individual themselves and whether they get involved in active programming or they simply do it on their own, taking up walking the dog for two or three or four miles a day kind of thing. All of it is helpful.

Ms. Cerilli: I guess these questions are aimed at trying to identify how the department evaluates the effectiveness of this kind of promotional campaign or program. The minister has just said that he thinks that there are more people getting involved in activity and leading a more healthy lifestyle. My concern then, in Manitoba, we do not have the capacity to really do that kind of study. We do not have the capacity, certainly through this division, to truly assess the impact programs like these are having. We probably are going to have to rely on information from other jurisdictions. Maybe there is something happening in the Department of Health that I am not aware of.

That is sort of where I am headed with these questions. I want to understand and have the minister confirm that Manitoba does have that kind of research so we could find out the trends, the activity levels, the kinds of programs that work to encourage more activity and how we do that in Manitoba. I am concerned that, unlike what the minister has said, there actually are a lot of people who are living a more sedentary life. Particularly, we are learning with young people, they are watching a lot more TV. For a lot of young people, participating in organized sport and fitness activities is becoming inaccessible due to the financial costs.

I want the minister to explain how this division does that kind of research and evaluation. If we know, with the money that is going into a program like this, that it is the best way to spend that money, that this kind of advertising campaign and promotional campaign is the best way to encourage more activity, physical activity, in Manitoba.

Mr. Ernst: In the past, a lot of measurement of success, if you will, or participation at least, was based on the number of events and the number of people who participated in those events, and the number of programs and the number of people who participated in these programs. These things are more than a glitzy advertising campaign. I mean, this works with local fitness leadership people here right across the province to try and encourage and give some profile to the need and the desirability of an Active Living program.

We work regularly with research people. We spend a fair bit of our budget actually with the research people at the University of Manitoba in the area of fitness leadership programming in order to broaden the horizons. We can not possibly deliver anything with three staff in terms of direct program to the public. So you do the next best thing. You try and get to the people who can deliver those programs and provide them with information, provide them with opportunities, provide them with this kind of thing which helps them develop their programming in the community.

You go back to the question of kids coming out of school and saying, you are right. They are watching more television and doing less participation, physical activity. So we have to impress upon them through the educational process and through the phys ed teacher in our school system that active living or a more active lifestyle is important for their health, not just now, when they think they are indestructible, but later on in life when they come to realize they are not. If you have maintained that healthy lifestyle throughout that period of time, you are going to be a lot less destructible, shall we say, when you reach ages 50 and 60, and so on, than you might have been had you led that sedentary lifestyle for a long period of time.

So we do work in partnership arrangements with people all over the province and with the university. There is constant monitoring and research by them and, to a certain degree, by the department and in conjunction with Fitness Canada and Participaction to measure, or try and measure at least, the kind of involvement that we are getting. It is an uphill struggle all the time, but the goal is worth it. Ultimately, you know, if you save 10 people's lives, it is probably worth it, or at least prolong them for a period of time that they might not have had otherwise.

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Ms. Cerilli: Who got the information this year on the SummerActive program? What kind of a list do we have for distribution? The minister has talked about working with program deliverers in the community.

Mr. Ernst: Yes, it went to every municipality, every recreation director, all the recreational and sport regional offices across the province and libraries.

Ms. Cerilli: So this information does not go to community clubs. It does not go to boys' and girls' scout groups, boys' and girls' clubs. It does not go to schools. It does not go to sport delivery organizations that the Manitoba Sports Federation covers so that they can distribute it to the variety of clubs that are involved with them. It is mostly going to regional offices and recreation directors, who are sort of under the auspices of the provincial government, as well as the municipalities.

Mr. Ernst: Mr. Chairman, most programming that takes place in community, through the community clubs and everything else, happens through municipal recreation departments. That is why it goes to the municipal recreation departments who disseminate it from there down into their networks. So they may call in people from various community centres who may run fitness programs and say, okay, here is another opportunity for you. There is going to be some major promotion on this kind of activity.

But this is a promotion of a principle as opposed to a program. The principle of active living, of having an active summer and an opportunity, it is all about creating awareness of the benefits of physical activity.

I am advised by staff also that it did go to schools, and it did go Manitoba Sports Federation.

Ms. Cerilli: Can the minister confirm the number of packages printed of this promotional material and the cost for that material to be developed?

Mr. Ernst: I do not have that detailed information available here at the present time. I can tell you that we assisted the federal government in developing the program, and then we purchase the information from them, as do other provinces. So we can tell you what it cost us to purchase the information and how many we sent out, but I cannot do that tonight.

Ms. Cerilli: I am always disappointed at Estimates when I cannot my questions answered. Especially as this is one of the few programs that this division runs, so I am surprised by that, but I will have to carry on.

I am looking at the promotional materials, the order form for everything from shoelaces to shorts and T-shirts that someone could purchase. I just want to clarify, this is done through a private agency. I am looking for the name. Can the minister clarify the which agency the Province of Manitoba is working with on this?

Mr. Ernst: Participaction.

Ms. Cerilli: So that is a nonprofit organization, I understand.

Mr. Ernst: Yes.

Ms. Cerilli: One of the things we had talked about earlier as outlined in the objectives for the division is to have the stakeholders in the area of fitness--or actually, I will read the directive from the book here: The directorate will continue to develop and strengthen networks relevant to active living and will assist the integration of active living and fitness into the planning frameworks of key stakeholders in Manitoba.

I am wondering what stakeholders that is referring to.

Mr. Ernst: Health, Education, Environment, Rural Development, municipalities, community fitness organizations, a host of people. We want to get them to develop active living principles into what they do.

For instance, in the Department of Health in their wellness area, we want to get them to use active living as a basic principle. We can provide information, both our own direct material and that which we can have access through Fitness Canada, to try and have them develop that principle throughout their programming.

We will have it disseminated as widely as possible. Again, as I have said all along, we need to have a network of people out there delivering the idea, the principle, the concept, as well as programs related to it. We will do what we can to assist them through information, through research that we can develop over time, both ourselves and with Fitness Canada, and through programs such as SummerActive.

Ms. Cerilli: I was wondering if the minister had anything to add to that.

Maybe we can get into a little bit more detail because this is the area that I think the government should be pursuing and as trying to get the variety of stakeholders, caregivers, planners, everything from urban planning. I mean, if we want to have a fit and active community, they have to have places in their community to be active, to recreate and to participate in activities.

I remember having an interesting discussion with the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings) in the last Estimates for last year, talking about this issue and trying to advocate for having more green space. That becomes an important environment and health issue in urban planning.

So I am wanting to get a little bit more specific in any of these areas and talk about whom the division has been in contact with. I will leave it up to the minister to choose which of those many areas he has mentioned--health, education, rural development--to get into a little bit more detail about the kind of groups or individuals or professionals that we have had the division working with, to try and have them integrate fitness and healthy lifestyles into their planning.

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Mr. Ernst: We have had a number of contacts and discussions, particularly with respect to municipal jurisdictions, who are the prime deliverers of both the program and facilities related to sport, physical activity and the like.

We talked about a number of--you know, the built environment, what can be done in terms of providing some facilities, either passive or active facilities, and trying to have them put the whole concept of active living into their planning processes. So that if you are going to carry on an activity with a bunch of seniors in Dauphin, for example--a member for Dauphin is here tonight--to try and build into the programming for those seniors, an activity area which will focus more on active living as opposed to having crafts in a sedentary setting, that maybe they ought to, you know, walk around the block even, if you will, or have an opportunity for a walk in the park or some physical activity to build into their programming so that it starts to contemplate the whole question of active living.

Now, in order to do that you need a park to have a walk in. So that when you talk to municipalities about creating, you know, bicycle paths, parks, hiking trails, a variety of different activities and opportunities for activity, they do not necessarily have to cost a lot of money nor do they, ultimately, require an admission to that as would an arena or a facility of that type. The opportunity is there, you know. A cross-country ski program, for instance, does not have to be terribly strenuous, but as an activity, even if it is for short duration and so on, all tends to build on that whole concept of active living and the values of a healthy lifestyle.

Ms. Cerilli: So this Fitness Directorate is doing this, is actually talking to municipalities about developing more community programs and facilities for active living? How do you identify who you are going to deal with? Do you have a plan for this objective in the division? Tell me a little bit about what the plan is.

Mr. Ernst: The Federation of Canadian Municipalities, which is the umbrella organization for all municipalities in Canada, has a general focus to which all of their provincial organizations subscribe, that is MAUM and UMM and so on. So we try and provide information to these people, assistance where requested or where we have the time, the staff availability, to talk with them about the kinds of things that they can be doing related to their jurisdiction and the programming that they ultimately deliver in their communities.

So you know, we may not send Mr. Evanchuk down to the city of Winnipeg planning department and say, look guys, you need to be planning more bicycle paths, but we do work with municipal organizations trying to provide information to them and assistance wherever it is requested or we have the time to provide it unsolicited.

Ms. Cerilli: So is there a plan in this area to identify stakeholders, and have you targeted or is it mostly just on a response to information?

Mr. Ernst: Well, we have identified that the prime deliverer of this kind of activity in the province is municipal recreation departments. So you know, we target them in the process to try and provide them with as much information and assistance as we can. We become a bit of a clearing house for information so that we will get, for instance, an organization, or a community group in Dauphin will contact the Dauphin recreation people and they will in turn put them in touch with us, and we will be able to provide them with information or assistance on an as-required basis.

As I said, with the limited amount of staff that we have available, we obviously cannot be out delivering individual programs, and we are not out assessing the Parklands Region, for instance, to determine what kind of facilities they require in order to have an Active Living program. These are community-driven situations.

So we can provide encouragement. We can provide information. We can provide research. We can provide literature. We can provide some promotional programs in conjunction with Fitness Canada or others, and then from that we will be able to assist them on an individually identified situation if that is what they are after.

Ms. Cerilli: Maybe the minister can give me some of the highlights, the successes in this area. What, specifically, organizations have you influenced in their planning, be it in rural areas, in municipalities, in health or in education? What are some of the highlights or success stories amongst the stakeholders you have worked with?

Mr. Ernst: I can provide the member with several examples here, if you like. For instance, in the Town of Carman, in conjunction with our department, the community created a pathway for active living so that the people of the community are now walking, cycling, rollerblading, a number of activities within the community. This is a community-driven project assisted by us with some ideas that we had and some information that we provided to them. They, in turn, turned it into reality.

Gimli, for instance, just received an award for their active living projects related to both walking paths, hiking trails, and also some canoeing activities there. They tied it into tourism; they tied it in to producing their own brochure for promotion, internally, within their municipality, and so on.

All kinds of things have come out. We had a community garden project in Flin Flon, as an example; creation of community gardening, garden plots, and so on like that, for people that go--if you do not have the opportunity in your own yard, then this is an excellent activity for active living. Well, you see them all over Winnipeg.

It did not actually come out of here; it came out of here out of Active Living; it has been ongoing for a long, long period of time where people utilize underutilized property, hydro lines, and other public types of property. From that, it is a very good activity. It keeps you busy in the summertime, and they get something productive out of it at the end, hopefully, if they have any kind of green thumb at all. So those are some of the kinds of activities and projects that have been influenced as a result of the work of the Fitness director.

Ms. Cerilli: Those sound like fine success stories. I am wondering if there are some areas that the division has identified that it would like to be pursuing. Has it has given some attention to prioritizing where it would like to have a greater influence in planning of different stakeholders to have them pay more attention to the potential for enhanced activity within their jurisdiction?

Mr. Ernst: I suppose it is only limited by the imagination in terms of the kinds of activities that can be produced. But this is a community-driven kind of program. This is not a top-down one, imposed by the Fitness Directorate. We do not call up the community of La Broquerie and say, look, we think you should be doing this; get off your duff and do it. That is not how it works. We provide information, provide encouragement, provide promotion, provide a host of supports in terms of trying to encourage people to do it; and, if there is someone there who is prepared to take the initiative and start to organize something, we will provide them with all the help we can.

From that come these kinds of activities, and, quite frankly, if you try to impose it upon them--you know, it is like the construction of a path, a footpath in a public park. You ever notice that, when construction of a public park takes place, they do not put in the sidewalks right away. They leave it for a year or two to see where people walk, and where the grass is beaten down, that is where they put the sidewalk.

People have to want to commit to it; people have to want to get involved; people want to have to take ownership of it. If you do not, in a lot of cases, you are simply wasting your time. You can follow the old adage: if you throw enough mud at a wall, some of it will stick. That has gone on historically, in the past, in the ways the governments have operated. We think that, if you have got somebody who is interested in the community, is prepared to develop it in the community, and if the community takes ownership of it, that is where you get your greatest success. The more people that participate, the more people who want to get involved, the greater your scope in terms of the kinds of objectives and goals that you set. So, rather than us imposing something on somebody, we will try to encourage the local community to come forward with their plans and activities, and we will try and assist them to create that ultimate objective.

Ms. Cerilli: I guess my ultimate objective here right now is just to determine if this very ambitious objective, as it is stated in the Estimates book, of trying to influence the planning of other jurisdictions--if that is done at all, other than on an ad hoc basis, and if it is done merely on an ad hoc basis, especially, as we have already said, given the resources of the directorate, how do the majority of these stakeholders find out about you? How do they come to you to get this assistance?

Mr. Ernst: We advertise. We have some basic literature that is sent out to a variety of people throughout the province, particularly those who are taking an active role in terms of the leadership area. University people who are involved in the fitness area are also aware. We do provide information through a variety of government offices, say, municipal recreation people, and a variety of sports.

Ms. Cerilli: So then the government is acting in the Fitness Directorate as a resource centre, basically, and there is no specific planning intention of where in Manitoba we can identify specific needs that we want to have an influence?

Mr. Ernst: Yes.

Ms. Cerilli: Okay. Has there ever been any work done with professionals, let us say, in the health field with nurses or physicians, in any kind of health centres or clinics? Has that ever been requested by this division?

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Mr. Ernst: Yes, we have done some work with the Healthy Communities network, and the Manitoba Heart Health Project, and the Canadian diabetes educationy, fitness and pregnancy, child health, and a number of areas like that.

Ms. Cerilli: How about in the area with social workers, counsellors, those who are working with people tending to have employment problems perhaps, the whole area of mental health? Has there ever been any work with those kinds of organizations or with health care providers in those kinds of clinics or areas?

Mr. Ernst: When you say that we have necessarily targeted social workers as a contact group--through the Healthy Communities network, and through work with Mental Health, it is sometimes more active living as a bit of an alternative in terms of getting people's focus back, if you will, or provide a tool, not necessarily the be-all and the end-all of a rehabilitation program or mental health program, but it is an assist, if you will. People are physically getting active, getting involved. They provide a little bit of focus on a specific issue, and you get the result and the physical benefits, and sometimes those physical benefits translate into an assist with regard to their mental health.

Mr. Chairman, I also had direct involvement both in the planning and delivery of a couple of conferences related to Healthy Communities, and one was held last year in Winnipeg, and there is another one coming up this fall again. So we have had quite a bit of involvement in that area.

Staff advise we have been involved with the Heart and Stroke Foundation, and the Healthy Children's strategies.

Ms. Cerilli: I am encouraged by what I am hearing. It is great. I just wish that there could be more of it. I wish that this division could be expanded, and I am wondering if the minister can inform the committee if he has ever advocated for that, if he has ever advocated for having an increase in this division so that there could be, perhaps, a more proactive approach on this. Maybe there just could be more people doing what Mr. Evanchuk does, responding when there is a request from the community.

I am not advocating that this be dictated to communities but I think there probably is a role. I am wondering if the minister has even ever had any discussions to this extent with his colleague the Minister of Health, with the ministers for municipal and Rural Development. I just think that the department or the government could go after this a bit more. This is an area that we have to be looking at.

I entirely support the concept of a healthy communities approach. I am wondering if the conference that the minister referenced was the same one that I was at at the Crossways-in-Common centre. I remember going to a healthy communities conference. It did encompass a number of things that the minister has made reference to in terms of urban planning, health care and education delivery. I am wondering if the minister does advocate for an expansion of this area within cabinet.

Mr. Ernst: I can tell the member for Radisson that we advocate continuously for new programs, new opportunities, additional resources within the directorate. We have to take our place in the overall fiscal realities of where the province finds itself. Sometimes we have been successful, sometimes we have not.

For instance, we did a drug awareness program where the Sport director, in that case, directed it. What happened was, we drew on several other departments for resources to create a pool of money that would make it effective rather than simply allocating X number of dollars to that particular area of activity.

In the Sport Directorate, we went and said to the Treasury Board, we think this affects Justice, Education, Health, I forget the other departments, I think there were four other departments. We said, they ought to be able to set aside some resources for, when in their departments--their existing level of resource. Let them snip and steal a little bit of money from some of their other programs in order to focus this as an area of interest.

From time to time you are able to do that and, you know, we would certainly look at that as an opportunity to try and enhance the delivery of what we do.

Ms. Cerilli: So just let me clarify this. The minister was making a proposal that other government departments who could benefit from having some of their department budget invested into Active Living and Fitness were encouraged to identify some money within their department and have it go towards fitness promotion? Is that accurate?

Mr. Ernst: As I explained to the member, that is what we did with one particular issue, as an example, in the Sport area, with respect to drug program. Those kinds of things can occur, not necessarily directly in the same basis, but you can suggest to Education, for instance, that as part of a fitness and Active Living program, phys ed teachers concentrate on teaching their kids, instead of basketball skills or other kinds of direct physical activity, maybe they can spend a bit of their time in terms of their whole overall physical education process focusing on changing the mindset of the youth in our high schools in particular, or maybe all the way through from K to 12 so that by the time they leave the school system, at least they have got it in their minds that active living is something they ought to be doing for the rest of their life. That would be an ultimate goal of tremendous proportion if that could ever be accomplished.

If you had 90 percent of the kids that left school thinking they have got to be active, they have got to participate, they have got to do things to create healthy bodies for them for the rest of their lives, there is an example of what you can do. You do not have to spend the money directly out of this department.

By encouraging the Department of Education to change the focus of their phys ed program to do that, we will have far more lasting benefits than spending tens of millions of dollars in the kind of things we are doing trying to catch that population that has already escaped that system. That is something that we need to work long and hard on.

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Ms. Cerilli: I would think that the goal of physical education programs in the schools now is to do that, to try and have students graduate with the propensity for fitness activities, and I think one of the ways of doing that is making sure that they have the skills, the basic skills, to use sports activity to attain fitness. I think that there has been a trend to move to more lifelong activity and sports activities and away from I think some of the more traditional sports that have been taught in schools and practised as competitive sports in schools.

I am wondering if the minister has some other ideas of how schools could instill those attitudes and values and habits in students so that when they do leave school they are more likely to remain active throughout their life.

Mr. Ernst: I think what we have, I mean, that is fine for the 20 or 25 percent of the kids who have some natural athletic ability and who have a reasonable expectation of at least mediocrity if not success in terms of participation in sport.

There are a whole pile of kids there that do not have any, or very little. They do not have an interest or do not have, are not sufficiently co-ordinated or a host of other reasons why they are not, whether they are unable or not, willing to participate in those kinds of sport activities.

I think the curriculum needs to be changed in the physical education area and, in our discussions last year, when we were going through the question of how you deal with physical education in the school system, the phys ed teachers themselves say that they agree that there is a need to refocus what they do, not necessarily on the kind of sport activities or the traditional ways they have dealt with the phys ed program. They need a curriculum change to develop the kind of educational programs that will hopefully assist and instill in these kids the value of active living on a lifelong basis.

Then they are going to have to change their teaching methods too, because they themselves admit in many cases they have not done as good a job as they might. From time to time in some areas--and this is their word and not mine--they have simply thrown the best 10 or so people out, the 10 or 12 people out on the floor for basketball, and everybody else sits in the stands and watches. That is constituted from to time as one of the phys ed classes or perhaps the whole program in certain circumstances.

So we need a curriculum change. We need to work with the Department of Education toward that end. We need to work with the phys ed teachers to try and develop ways and means of instilling that in the kids, and then we have to go out and do it.

Ms. Cerilli: I am wondering what the Minister for Fitness is advocating. Change to what? What are you advocating in terms of curriculum change, in terms of teaching methodology change?

Mr. Ernst: Mr. Chairman, I am not an expert in how to accomplish these things, nor do I pretend to be, and we know what the goal is. We know what some of the professionals have said, either collectively in a group or individually. So we have to try and find the ways and means of doing that, but I am not a professional educator. I do not know the whys and hows and wherefores of trying to develop these things, nor do I pretend to be, nor quite frankly is Mr. Evanchuk.

We are there to provide the supports to those people to, in this case, encourage the change in the curriculum to ensure that these kinds of things are focused upon in an attempt to reach that goal. But we have to draw upon the professional expertise across the system in order to create that plan, if you will, that final plan, to reach that goal, and that is what has to be done over a period of time.

Ms. Cerilli: Can the minister tell me what groups or individuals he has met with to receive this message that there needs to be changes in the physical education curriculum and methods in schools, to ensure that young people are leaving school with attitudes and skills to be active livers.

Mr. Ernst: Is that like a liver transplant? What Mickey Mantle got? Active livers.

The phys ed teachers, the phys ed supervisors, the Department of Education--I attended a couple of seminars in recent time. I think the member did as well. I had discussions with people there, with the high schools' athletic people through the MSF. We have had discussions with all of these people about these issues, which the member could have gleaned from my earlier comments, that said that professionals in the system had talked about this with me during that whole episode with respect to the role of physical education in the school system.

Ms. Cerilli: Does the minister then support having a component of health education taught in the physical education curriculum by phys ed teachers? That is currently a change that is being looked at, following up on the blueprint, and does the Minister for Fitness support that?

Mr. Ernst: I do not think it matters a great deal how it is accomplished, whether it is accomplished through one path or another path. The goal is the same, and if the goal is reached, then how you get to that goal I will leave up to the professionals in terms of education. Reaching the goal is what is important, and if we can do that, we have succeeded, and that is what we want to do.

Ms. Cerilli: Is the minister aware that it is a great concern among physical education professionals currently that physical activity time during classes is going to be reduced because of the changes in the curriculum? Is the minister aware of that concern among a number of physical education professionals?

Mr. Ernst: Yes I am, Mr. Chairman, and ways and means need to be sought to accomplish the goal that we are aiming for. I mean, the ability in the whole education system to try and accomplish a variety of objectives, everything from literacy and basic mathematics to physical education to a host of other kinds of supplementary or peripheral or important programs, if there is not enough time in the day to accomplish that, then we have to look at some other alternatives.

I am not about to get into a public scrap at the moment over what those other alternatives might be, but we need to explore those with the people who are involved in the delivery of the programming, to see whether they are acceptable, whether there is an opportunity and whether ultimately that is the way that the programming should go. But we will see what happens in due course as those discussions go on.

Ms. Cerilli: Is the minister concerned that young people in Manitoba could experience the diminished amount of time spent on activity within their school life and that that may decrease their opportunity to develop the habit for fitness and active living?

Mr. Ernst: Mr. Chairman, the goal I think ultimately is to instill that value in the children through the school system if at all possible. If you instill that value, it will not matter whether they spend an hour more or less a week in the actual participation in physical activity within school hours or not. If you instill it in them, they will do it. They will do it on their own time. They will get involved in other activities. We can create or have created some of those other activities, if they need to be more structured and so on.

I mean, most of the school sport programs are run not during school time, they are run after hours and weekends. So if we can create the same kind of interest in an active living basis, then perhaps you are going to create that outside of the system, outside of the structured portion of the system that is allocated only so many hours of time.

Alternatively, there may be an opportunity to expand the amount of time available, but that is something that has to be pursued on a different plane than this.

(Mr. Neil Gaudry, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

Ms. Cerilli: I am surprised by one of the minister's statements that he has said that he thinks that the majority of sports activities are conducted after school by most schools. I am wondering if he has visited many schools to develop that opinion. I think for the majority of students the majority of their sport activity would be in their physical education classes and during intramural programs. Some schools run tremendous intramural programs that involve huge numbers of school students--

Mr. Ernst: But after hours.

Ms. Cerilli: No, the intramural programs are usually run at noon hour--

Mr. Ernst: That is outside of normal school time.

Ms. Cerilli: --or are run during the class activity time.

So I want to ask the minister if he thinks that the best way to instill this attitude towards fitness and active living is through participation in activities.

Mr. Ernst: Mr. Chairman, I told the member earlier I am not a professional educator. I do not have all the answers with respect to how best to deliver these programs. We will look to the professional educators to try and develop the best possible way of dealing with it.

Ms. Cerilli: With all due respect, Mr. Chairperson, the minister, though, is in a position to, if not develop policy, to influence the policy for the Department of Education, particularly in this area of physical education and fitness. So I think whether he is an expert or not in this field, he does have a very powerful position over the next while, while new curriculums are being developed, to be a strong voice in cabinet, to advocate for no time to be lost in any grade level for physical activity during class time. Like I said, I know that this is a concern among the physical education profession.

I am wondering if the minister would like to clarify then his ability to recommend policy without taking a position on the question, if the best way to ensure that young people are going to leave school with an attitude and a propensity to participate in fitness activities, if the best way to do that is not by having them to participate in activities during their school life.

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Mr. Ernst: Once again, I will explain for the member for Radisson that we have in fact advocated for changes to the curriculum. We are discussing with phys ed teachers, phys ed supervisors, Department of Education and others, that we need to create a new curriculum to deal with this issue to try and accomplish our goal. How we reach that goal I do not think matters, whether it is 30 minutes here or 30 minutes there.

I am prepared to take the advice of the professional educators to say that is necessary or not necessary. I am not going to go out and preclude--I know that happens quite regularly, particularly in the political spectrum, where somebody just tries to force you into a position of saying one thing or another with respect to an issue. I am not prepared to do that. What I am prepared to do, and I think I have explained it time and time again already this evening, is what we have already done, in terms of trying to change the curricula, trying to gain that focus to reach that ultimate goal of having children leaving the educational system having instilled in them a lifelong desire and recognition of the advantages of active living. That is what the goal is. That is where we are headed. How we accomplish that will remain to be seen as we go through the process of trying to change the curriculum and trying to change the focus in the school system toward that end.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, I do not want to belabour this too much longer, but the minister must have identified at some point that there was a problem with the current curriculum, the method of delivering physical education, whatever he wants to call it. I am wondering when that was identified and how that was identified to lead to the proposed changes that are outlined in the blueprint for education. How was that identified by this government, and was the minister involved in that? He has mentioned a number of meetings he has had with different groups. Did that begin prior to the blueprint recommendation?

Mr. Ernst: That is what created some of the blueprint concerns. It was the fact that, when you look at the end results and how many of the students leaving high school had that instilled in them, it was recognizably small. So, to address the whole question of that, one tack was that, if we are not gaining the desired result in any event, maybe we ought to scrap the whole thing. The other alternative is to say, rather than doing that, maybe we need to go some other distance further and create new curricula and other kinds of activity. That is what this minister advocated for, and that is what ultimately happened.

(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)

Ms. Cerilli: Welcome back, Mr. Chairperson.

I am glad that the minister was one of the people advocating for that, and I do not think that the way to go is to entirely eliminate physical education at the secondary level. I am still concerned that we are not getting a clear message on what the minister is now advocating. As I have said, and I hope that he is hearing this as well, there is a lot of concern out there among the professionals that deliver fitness programs to students in schools that they are going to end up doing more sedentary activity and book learning, or whatever you want to call that sort of teaching, and less time on trying to actually develop the skills that are going to enable young people to participate in lifelong physical activity.

I sort of did get sidetracked into this area from the issues that we were talking about before. I wanted to ask the minister, when we were talking before about dealing with stakeholders and trying to have more government departments providing funding for fitness and lifestyle-related activities--I mean, he must be familiar with the report that was done from the Sports Federation, which has a remarkable statistic. I believe it is from a study that was done in New Zealand or Australia that talks about the potential for saving money from--this is particularly of concern to those countries that still have public health care insurance and health coverage like Canada, like Manitoba. If 40 percent of the population became involved in regular physical activity, the net saving to that country from health care alone would be $6.5 million per day. That was a study that was done in 1988.

Going back to the issue then of trying to convince other departments and his cabinet colleagues that this is indeed a worthwhile endeavour, that not only is it good for the health of the citizens of Manitoba but it is also good, I guess, for the health of the coffers of the public as well, I am wondering if that has had an impact. This is something that is quite a dramatic study. So can the minister make any additional comments with respect to his discussions with his cabinet colleagues on moving in this area, moving to really go after this area and promote with all the stakeholders in the community that could indeed make not only our communities more healthy but all the citizens more healthy and in the long run save us a lot of our health care costs?

Mr. Ernst: I do not think, Mr. Chairman, I need to go at it very hard. I think everybody recognizes the value. How you reach that or attain or concentrate or focus your efforts is another matter. If not everyone, most people recognize the value of better physical fitness of the human being, that it is going to translate into healthier lifestyle and, ultimately, less demands on the health care system down the road. We are looking at, as we have said before, partnerships in the community through a variety of sources: municipal recreation, sport oriented, regional, a number of stakeholders in those areas.

In terms of the provincial government departments, we are talking with Education with respect to the outcomes of the physical education program. The Department of Health has instituted a number of wellness programs, wellness centres, such as the one that Seven Oaks Hospital is in the process of creating. You know, a number of things like that. All those things will work toward the ultimate goal of a healthier society and result in savings in the health care system. That is a long-term project. That is not going to resolve issues for people that are 60, 70, 80 years old who have not led a healthy lifestyle up to this point, but that is not to say the goal is not laudable and that we ought not to be pursuing it. We should.

Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Chairperson, $6.5 million per day. Does that not get you excited, Mr. Minister, that you could have that kind of impact? So little enthusiasm. This is an exciting area. [interjection]

Well, what gets the minister excited about this area? I want to know that. What gets the minister really revved up about the opportunity to make some pretty dramatic changes? He is not going to answer my question.

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It is late, I understand, but I want to go back to and tie this all together with the minister's comments about the approach that the government was taking on phys ed and how backward that is. I am wondering, if given this statistic that we can save millions of dollars by having more people involved in physical activity, does the minister not think that there could be other approaches in looking at other influences, particularly when we were talking earlier about having an increase in the hours that kids watch TV?

I would just like to suggest that perhaps the way to approach it is not throwing out the baby with the bathwater as they almost did with eliminating phys ed from the secondary curriculum, but in looking at some of those other influences on young people. I think this would tie in with what the mandate of this division is, of this directorate is. The media is a tremendous influence. I look at the increase of kids playing video games and pinball games or computer games, Nintendo, and I am wondering if there is any attempt by the department to take a look at some of those other influences, if that is part of the approach that we might take in dealing with this whole area.

Mr. Ernst: Well, Mr. Chairman, kids are going to play video games or computer games and so on. This is a computer age we live in. There are other benefits, educational benefits, coming from the use of that equipment and so on. What we have to do is determine that they can play, they can watch television, or they can play all kinds of video games or Nintendo or whatever else, but they also should look at the benefits and try and have, at least, instilled into them the benefits of an hour of physical activity every day too. If you have an hour of physical activity every day out of them, it would not matter whether they watched television or not. Rather than try and look at preventing somebody from doing something, I think we need to be proactive and look at encouraging them to do something. That encouragement is that hour or whatever of physical activity every day.

Ms. Cerilli: I guess I look at it as we are up against a lot. What I am getting at is, he has got the division here with three staff. They are up against a lot, they are up against an entire culture, I think, that is more technological and therefore in a lot of ways more sedentary.

I am concerned, and I guess the final point that I want to make is that I think we have to be investing more than $284,000, roughly, into fitness promotion, keeping in mind that in the long run it has a net saving, particularly when you are talking about younger people. I am concerned that this government is not taking that challenge on, that it is not truly integrating that into its health reform strategy. I know that I have advocated in the committee before and on panels before that there is a role for a directorate promoting fitness and healthy lifestyle in health reform. I do not see that happening to a very large extent.

I am prepared to pass this section on. If the minister wants to take issue at all with anything I have said, I do not know.

Mr. Ernst: Just in concluding this section, I want to say that the staff may be small but they are excellent. The resources are limited, yes, but they have a fantastic minister who provides amazing leadership, carries the flag for these issues, not necessarily do as I do but do as I say. Leadership is the quality that counts here and they have got fantastic leadership.

Ms. Cerilli: I was remiss in missing one of my issues I wanted to raise. That has to do with initiatives in the area of workplace fitness. Can you describe any initiatives that you have had in the area of promoting fitness in the workplace?

This seemed like it was a big trend 10 years ago and it sort of petered out. There was lots of advocates for transforming workplaces into being fitness friendly so that they would have change facilities and shower facilities and bike racks and that kind of thing. [interjection] The Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach) says this is not a good example. I agree that this building is a horrible example. There is not a shower for any of the hundreds of staff that work here even though we are right on the riverbank and we have a wonderful recreational path right at our doorstep. You could go down to the river and go for a canoe ride at lunchtime if you had the facilities.

That is one of the areas that I am interested in, especially, any government initiatives, again, having some leadership within our own workplace here.

Mr. Ernst: I have had some discussions with the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pallister) with respect to some issues related to this particular building, but we are available to consult as required. We have met with, for instance, Mike McCandless with respect to the creation of a fitness centre in downtown Winnipeg for use either as part of an existing building or as a free-standing building. I met with him and discussed a number of issues, tried to find funding as a matter of fact to assist him in creating that. Ultimately, I never did succeed, but you know, from time to time there are people in the community who are coming forward to try and promote those activities.

At the same time, every time we do that, spend 11 million bucks on the downtown Y for instance, as an example, to create a first-class fitness facility for people who work in the downtown, then we get dumped on by the private sector owners because they undercut the prices of, for instance, Supreme Racquet Courts who also provide a service to people.

There are a number of those kinds of activities that we support that will provide for facilities for people in the workplace or make it available to people adjacent to their workplace. It may not be right in the workplace, but it at least is available to them, within close proximately. I know that the use of, particularly by people who work in the downtown, facilities like the downtown Y, like the Reh-Fit Centre, where I go three times a week--as a matter of fact, the number of people that are there at six o'clock in the morning is quite amazing and it seems to be growing all the time. Those kinds of facilities are available, and we try to encourage and assist wherever we can. We have not gone out and analyzed a particular area and said, we need a facility here and this is how we are going to do it and so on. Those initiatives have to come from the community to do that.

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Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 1. Fitness and Sport (a) Fitness Directorate (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $134,900.

Ms. Cerilli: I just want to ask the minister more directly if there have been any initiatives within the civil service for the Province of Manitoba.

Mr. Ernst: As an example, in this SummerActive program we happen to have a recreation student working with the fitness director for the summer. In fact, they are in the process of organizing, for instance, the entire 155 Carlton office building, which is 90 percent government staff, trying to get them involved in active living for the summer program. We will see from that what kind of results we get and then we can expand that to other departments and other places within government.

Ms. Cerilli: Just to clarify, that was a STEP student?

Mr. Ernst: Yes.

Ms. Cerilli: Way to go. I can pass this now.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 1. Fitness and Sport (a) Fitness Directorate (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $134,900--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $87,200--pass; (3) Grants $62,500--pass.

Item 1. (b) Sport Directorate (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $435,000.

Ms. Cerilli: This is the section on the Sport Directorate. There are a number of issues I want to discuss here. We will just get a chance to sort of get started tonight unless it is the will of the committee to call it midnight. [interjection] No? Okay. [interjection] No, I do not want to go to one o'clock. I will go to midnight.

I just want to take the opportunity to thank the staffperson from the Fitness Directorate. I also realize that he does an incredible job. I just wish he had more help.

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I think I will start off with asking some questions about the plans for the Canada Games in Brandon. It is unfortunate that we do not have a little bit more detailed information in the Estimates book. I see that there is a line for the Pan Am Games. I am wondering why there is not a line for the Canada Games. Is there any provincial funding responsibility or is it entirely federally funded?

Mr. Ernst: We are providing approximately $3.17 million as our contribution toward the 1997 Canada Games in Brandon. The current year's amount of $650,000 is contained in line item (5) Major Sport Initiatives.

Ms. Cerilli: I will just ask the minister to repeat that for me so I can make a note of it.

Mr. Ernst: Well, if you look under the Sport Directorate there are expenditure areas (1) to (6), (1) being Salaries and Employee Benefits; (2) Other Expenditures; (3) Grants; (4) Best Ever Program - Grant Assistance; (5) Major Sport Initiatives and; (6) 1999 Pan American Games - Capital, for a total of $5.488 million. Those are the categories of expenditure. Category No. 5. Major Sport Initiatives $650,000 is in fact the contribution to Brandon for 1995-96.

The reason it is not classified as Brandon is that major sport initiatives, for comparative purposes, last year contained more than the contribution for Brandon, so there was a contribution there toward Pan Am bid, so it was contained under Major Sport Initiatives last year as an overall contribution but, this year, because we have won the bid and are now required to provide funding under our agreement with the 1999 Pan American Games Society, we have a line in there for 1999.

Ms. Cerilli: So for this budget we are investing $65,000 towards the Canada Games in Brandon.

Mr. Ernst: $650,000.

Ms. Cerilli: $650,000. I was just waiting. I thought the minister was going to clarify that.

Mr. Ernst: Mr. Chairman, we are providing approximately $3 million toward Brandon. We provided some money already. We will provide additional money over the period of time leading up to 1997, including 1997, to the total tune of that amount of money. So this is the contribution for this year.

Ms. Cerilli: So I would like a breakdown for this year how the $650,000 is being invested. I am particularly interested in a description of the facilities development in Brandon.

Mr. Ernst: We are providing a grant to the 1997 Brandon Host Society for operating costs and capital expenditures. How Brandon spends--we are not spending the money, we are giving the money to the Brandon Host Society and Brandon Host Society is spending the money and they will spend it how best they think is appropriate within the guidelines of the Canada Games Council and their Host Society operation plan.

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We are in a partnership with Canada Games Council, the federal government, the Host Society, the City of Brandon and individual sports, so the finalized business plan should be available soon, but they have gone on with the process of--either the City of Brandon or the Brandon Host Society has had engineers and designers looking at improvements to the playing surfaces, renovations of existing facilities that are needed to accommodate the '97 Canada Games in Brandon. But we are not spending program dollars, we are not spending $650,000, other than by way of a grant to the Brandon Host Society.

Ms. Cerilli: So are there any conditions that go along with that grant? What are the requirements for the use of that money?

Mr. Ernst: Well, I guess it starts with the bid. There is a bid document that outlines in some detail what Brandon intends to do should they be awarded the games. Then there are funding partner contributions created by formulae related to the Canada Games through the Canada Games Council and so on as to how they will contribute, how the federal government contributes. There are bid guidelines with respect to the overall operation and then, ultimately, you wind up with an agreement with Brandon based upon all of these things as set down in that agreement to determine how the money is going to be spent and if there is a surplus what you are going to do with it.

Ms. Cerilli: Was there any impact on the Canada Games money coming from the federal government with the cuts from the federal government to Sport Canada?

Mr. Ernst: No.

Ms. Cerilli: Can the minister tell me what the total budget is for the Canada Games in Brandon?

Mr. Ernst: The finalized business plan is anticipated in the next day or two, so we do not have a finalized number and I am just trying to recollect what it was in the bid, $10 million, $12 million or something like that.

Ms. Cerilli: Can you tell me how much of that $10 million or $12 million will be used in facilities development?

Mr. Ernst: Six million dollars. I should also point out that while that is the expectation, if it turns out that through a variety of other sources or other users or other facilities becoming available to them or they make a change--you know, one of the big issues is, do they build a diving tank in Brandon? They do not have one. They spend $2 million or $3 million building a diving tank to be used pretty sparingly or for the one day that they need diving facilities, or do they bus everybody into Winnipeg and use the Pan Am pool? Or, alternatively, do they scrap the diving activity totally? The latter is pretty tough to do. Or do you build an outdoor diving facility and be at the whim of the prairie winds and everything else when you are trying to dive off a 10-metre board. I am not so sure I want to do that in a 20- or 30-mile an hour wind. I am not so sure I want to dive off it period, no matter where it was.

So those are the kinds of issues that they have to address, and if they have to conduct that activity, 10-metre tower diving, then what is the best option? If they spend the money on capital, they do not have it available for other things. It they decide the Winnipeg option is the best option, then they have the money available for something else. So there is some flexibility built into it. It is not terribly totally rigid.

They have identified a number of facilities that need upgrading. Again, it will depend on, ultimately, when they call tenders if their estimate and the estimates of their consultants were accurate. If they said they needed $300,000 to build a field hockey facility and find out that it is going to cost $500,000 after all is said and done, then they have some decisions to make.

Ms. Cerilli: I appreciate what the minister is saying, that there is some flexibility. The diving facility and an outdoor track are two things that have been mentioned to me that are going to be expensive items on the list. I do not believe that Brandon has an international calibre outdoor track athletic facility, and I guess what I am concerned about is the kind of consultation that this facilities development process is going to have with the Manitoba Sports Federation and the different sports governing bodies.

Mr. Ernst: Well, if you ask the Manitoba Sports Federation what their mandate is, they will tell you that they are a conduit providing money to their individual sport organizations, which does not leave a very large role in terms of the technical development of facilities in Brandon. What you do have is the national sport governing bodies for those individual sports who will be displayed in Brandon, who have assigned technical representatives to ensure that the facilities in Brandon meet the national requirements of that sport for each individual sport.

So if field hockey needs--and interesting, field hockey is the one that has created the big problem. It was originally estimated at $800,000 and has turned out to look now like it is going to cost $1.7 million to construct a field hockey facility in Brandon, which may never be used again. But they have, you know, a major problem there, but the technical reps for field hockey from the national sport governing body are the ones who set the criteria and who will judge the project based upon the design.

Ms. Cerilli: This is posing a problem then. We have got people from Ottawa deciding on how the facility development is going to be undertaken for the Canada Games in Brandon.

Mr. Ernst: Well, they are the technical representatives of the sport, whether they come from Ottawa or Calgary or Vancouver or Winnipeg or Brandon; it does not matter. They are the technical representatives of the sport. Most will be from Manitoba, those representatives, but by and large they are the technical representatives of the sport. So where they come from--if they have somebody here in Manitoba who is available and adequate and trained, and so on, then they will employ them. They are not spending money for the sake of spending money, either, by sending people from Halifax to come here to decide. They will use whatever resources they have available to them at least cost.

Ms. Cerilli: I understand what you are saying then, but these are people who are from the national organizations for the sports, and I do not understand. I guess I want just to make sure that there is going to be a local influence in setting the priorities, and I want the minister to be able to assure me that there is going to be local influence, as the minister said, in choosing what kind of sport facilities are best going to serve the long-term interests of the province, so that can be balanced with the short-term interests of the Canada Games.

Mr. Ernst: Well, it is a little late now. That is what you do in the bid process, but these are national games. These are the Canada Games. These are not Manitoba games. These are not Brandon games. These are the Canada Games. So you have national requirements. You have a partnership with the Canada Games Council which is a national body housed in Ottawa. You have a partnership with the federal government who are the initiators, originally, of the Canada Games and provide significant funding.

But when you bid, you bid on set criteria for a number of sports. Those sports are required to be housed, and the tech reps from those individual sports determine the playing surface, if you will, or the playing field associated with those individual sports whether it is an outdoor facility, an indoor facility, whatever. They will decide, ultimately, the technical requirements, and then Brandon can decide how much, or how little, they will provide around that.

So if you are building a baseball stadium and you can provide 1,000 seats as opposed to 2,000 seats, that, ultimately, is the choice of Brandon, based upon the availability of money and their ability to raise money from the corporate community because a large portion of the $4 million, I think it is, of Brandon's contribution is to be raised corporately, or at least raised by the Brandon whole society by whatever means. You know the bid is based on X numbers of sports who have to be housed with appropriate facilities for the conduct of the games.

Mr. Deputy Chairman: Order please. The time is now 12 midnight. Committee rise.