CULTURE, HERITAGE AND CITIZENSHIP

Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. Does the honourable Minister of Culture have an opening statement?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): I do, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much, and I do have an opening statement. I would like to proceed with that at this time.

With the introduction of the 1995-1996 Estimates for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, I would again like to emphasize the important role that this department plays in the health and well-being of Manitobans. It is our vision to enrich the innovative spirit and well-being of Manitobans, and we expect to place significant emphasis on this vision. As we look to the future, we will increasingly be working to building awareness and appreciation of the link between lifestyle issues and overall well-being. It is our function to celebrate the collective identity of Manitobans by exploring our heritage, expressing our creativity and promoting our diversity and opportunities.

In Manitoba, the department and staff fill a significant role in the preservation and protection of many aspects of this province's history so that we can continue to build on past strengths. Arts, culture, recreation, immigration, libraries and multiculturalism are vehicles through which thousands of employees and hundreds of thousands of volunteers and contributors play fundamental roles in the promotion and development of the skills and talents of Manitobans.

What must be appreciated is that the services, programs and initiatives which fall under the auspices of my department have both direct and indirect impacts on the artistic growth, economic success and long-term health of Manitobans. In the process of meeting the needs of Manitobans, my department has developed strong and productive partnerships with communities and community-oriented groups. These partnerships, programs, services, initiatives and staff are important components in Culture, Heritage and Citizenship's endeavours to meet the needs of Manitobans. Combined, they help us continue to make Manitoba an exciting, dynamic and prosperous community in which we are proud to live and raise our families.

Under my department's Culture, Heritage and Recreation Programs division, we support a vast cross-section of individuals and organizations, ranging from museums, arts organizations, galleries and artists to libraries, recreation and special events. These initiatives reflect the diversity of activities and celebrations which take place every year and celebrate the contribution they make towards Manitobans' outstanding quality of life.

Nineteen ninety-five is Manitoba's 125th anniversary in Confederation. It is a time for celebrating our growth and achievements, reliving experiences, exploring our countryside and our many geographical and historical attractions and expressing our pride in Manitoba's heritage.

My department's Historic Resources branch has been working with various heritage and historic groups to promote public awareness of this milestone. They are a resource for the development of informational packages as well as a special-edition newspaper centring on Manitoba history and heritage themes. These materials were mailed to a wide audience, including museums, schools, historic societies and archeological societies.

Beginning in 1994-95, and continuing this year, my department has also provided administrative, financial and consultative support to the special initiative, Celebrate Manitoba's 125th, as part of our commitment to encouraging Manitobans' pride in our past. The program is administered by a 21-member Premier's committee of volunteers with staffing functions being provided by an executive director and two support staff. The activities of the committee and staff have included a major public awareness campaign, as well as the planning and development of celebratory events in honour of our province's 125th birthday.

We developed and introduced the "proud buffalo" logo and the "Year to Remember" song which were very well received by the public. Communities have been embracing the notion of celebrating our birthday with over 1,000 community events being officially registered with the Celebrate office. In co-operation with Industry, Trade and Tourism, the guest of honour program has been very successful, with over 13,000 inquiries for information received from potential tourists, friends and relatives wishing to visit Manitoba during its 125th anniversary year.

My department will continue to place a priority on Manitoba's cultural industries, both through direct programs for book publishers and through its support for film, video and sound programs operated by the Manitoba Cultural Industries development office. Support to Manitoba's cultural industries encourages the production and marketing of Manitoba books, films, videos and sound recordings.

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Some recent projects sponsored by CIDO include the film "Long Way Home" now being shot at Winnipeg sites such as the Fort Garry Hotel, and sound recordings by prominent artists such as Tom Jackson and Walle Larsson. CIDO has co-sponsored, with CKND-TV, a competition for a new short film drama. CIDO is also involved in attracting foreign film productions to Manitoba. Earlier this month, CIDO organized a five-day tour of Manitoba by major U.S. film producers. These producers were taken throughout Manitoba to discover the film opportunities of many of the locations in our province and were impressed with both the talent of Manitoba crews and its locations.

Department support to Manitoba book publishers has included assistance to upgrade computer systems, staff training and marketing projects such as the quarterly newspaper, Prairie Books NOW, which is distributed to 40,000 book buyers throughout western Canada.

My department's close interaction with Manitoba Cultural Industries has provided significant economic benefits for urban and rural communities. They have also helped foster a positive international reputation for Manitoba. Manitoba appears to be on the verge of crossing into a new level of activity in cultural industries. My department works with many sectors of the community to enhance and develop other cultural resources.

(Mr. Mervin Tweed, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

I am pleased we were able to assist the Jewish Community Campus of Winnipeg with funding towards the campus project. Campus is a $20-million multipurpose educational, cultural and recreational complex designed to serve all ages in Winnipeg's Jewish community and the broader community of Winnipeg as well. Not only will campus amalgamate a number of existing services and agencies throughout Winnipeg, it will also provide new uses for heritage buildings in the Fort Osborne Barracks site.

Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, through its Recreation branch, is committed to helping Manitoba communities develop recreational opportunities which will provide identifiable benefits. Based on the success of a two-year pilot project, a second certificate program to train recreation directors in northern and remote communities is being delivered at Keewatin Community College in partnership with Northern Affairs and Education and Training. These recreation directors, who are employed by the community, are being trained to develop and deliver recreation opportunities which positively impact the health and well-being of the communities.

I have spoken in the past of the results of the research on the pilot program which showed the incidence of crime in communities where a recreation director was employed was reduced by as much as 25 percent. The positive effects of this program include improved physical and mental health of residents and enhanced individual community pride. These effects have an incalculable benefit on community health.

As we approach the 21st Century there is an increasing emphasis on the adaptation of our communities to the emerging information technologies and the opportunities they represent. Access to these technologies is recognized as an essential part of Manitoba's ability to be a competitive participant in the global marketplace of today and tomorrow. My department is working with communities across Manitoba to enhance our abilities to access, share and exchange informational resources on these rapidly developing electronic highways.

The Public Library Services branch is continuing its efforts to meet the recommendations of the Public Library Advisory Board, a report released in February of 1994. Recommendations in the report called for increased funding for rural and northern public libraries and the automation of all public libraries. A part of our response has been an increase of $1 million in the operating grants for rural and northern public libraries. Rural libraries received $750,000 directly, and $250,000 was allocated for the purchase of materials. In 1994-95 this $250,000 increase added approximately 10,700 English and 1,000 French language items in both print and electronic formats.

Our investment in rural libraries represents an overall operating grant increase of 50 percent from $1.5 million to $2.25 million. To enhance the ability of all Manitoba communities to access the new information networks and technologies we are continuing with our support to automating rural public libraries. To date, 30 of the 45 regional libraries have begun installation of automated library systems. My staff at Public Library Services have reprioritized our efforts to work closely with each library to provide automation design, technical and implementation support. They are actively encouraging all libraries to automate and become part of the Manitoba automated public library information network, a network designed to improve resources sharing throughout Manitoba.

We are currently running a pilot to test the MAPLIN project at four regional libraries: South Central Regional Library, Morden, Winkler and Altona, Boissevain & Morden Regional Library in the Turtle Mountains, The Pas Library and Parkland Regional Library in Dauphin.

Initiatives with provincial services division reflect the wide-ranging and carefully co-ordinated efforts of my department to embrace and utilize Manitoba's vast informational resources. For example, in 1995-96 we will connect the Legislative Library to the Public Library Services automated system. As a result of this automation, the Legislative Library's clients and other libraries throughout the province will be able to borrow books more easily.

The Provincial Archives branch is actively preparing the electronic access guide to government records and information, complementing the print version currently used. The production of this guide in electronic form will allow Manitoba to enter the Internet with a practical public information application. The move to an electronic format also has several benefits which are easily recognized. It can more readily be updated to reflect any changes in the organization of government departments. It can be searched by users very precisely or scanned broadly to find information, and the potential number of users is greatly increased given the rapidly increasing numbers of Manitobans using school, library, university and home computers to access the Net. Through these various initiatives, Culture, Heritage and Citizenship is committed to helping Manitobans prepare for the 21st Century and its information-sharing technologies.

The Citizenship division of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship plays the lead role for Manitoba in the recruitment and settlement of immigrants to the province. A strong immigrant movement to Manitoba is fundamental to the economic and social well-being of the province. The skills, education, experience and individual abilities of immigrants historically have been what has helped the province to grow and develop.

The role of immigrants today is no less important. Immigration brings us talented, skilled people who are an important resource for our future. However, recent federal decisions have had a detrimental effect on the flow of immigration to this province. It has therefore been important to have aggressive measures undertaken by the Citizenship division to actively promote Manitoba as a destination of choice to potential emigrants from other continents.

The three main approaches under the independent immigrant promotion and recruitment strategy are No. 1, an advertising campaign involving the promotion of Manitoba through direct response by using specific numbers for a 24-hour, Winnipeg-based call centre; secondly, the use of worldwide bulletins promoting immigration to Manitoba on the Internet system with regular E-mail correspondence and home page promotion to support it; and thirdly, an information and education program involving joint promotion and recruitment initiatives with federal posts abroad.

From this campaign, our results have been very encouraging. Between the advertising and Internet activity, we have made 846 contacts with potential immigrants to Manitoba; 569 of these were made through the high-tech forum of the Internet. Of the 846, we remain in active contact with 804. By our reports as many as 15 percent of those appear to be in various stages of immigration to Manitoba. Citizenship has distributed more than 1,400 Manitoba Advantage fulfilment kits in answer to direct inquiries.

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As well, an active initiative is underway to involve community organizations in our promotion activities. We intend to be expanding our media campaigns into other parts of the world, including Eastern Europe, Southeast Asia, South China, United States and the Philippines.

We will also build on the success of our Internet campaign through expanded, regular bulletins and updating of our home page. Through the contact made by these mechanisms, staff are able to follow up on a case-by-case basis to identify economic and labour market opportunities and niches to match the response expertise. We share an interdepartmental committee which improves our co-ordination with other government departments to deal as promptly as possible with the needs identified.

In addition, as we develop a stronger connection to the community supports and resources that are available within some communities, it will mean that potential immigrants can have a better, more realistic view of the current labour-market needs in Manitoba. We are confident that this will ensure those cases supported by Manitoba will actually be selected by Canada.

Throughout this year staff will also work with communities who have identified an interest in promotion and recruitment, such as the Winnipeg Jewish Community Council, the Philippine Association of Manitoba, the Chinese Cultural Centre, and the Ukrainian National council. It is our plan to actively work with other communities, as well, as they identify an interest in promoting Manitoba.

The promotion of Manitoba in other countries is an essential component of our planning for the future development of the province. As Manitobans, we know the value of the style of living in Manitoba and believe that this is an important feature in attracting immigrants. We are developing an aggressive campaign to ensure that potential immigrants are informed when making their choice of a new home.

Recognizing the value of immigrants to Manitoba's future and attracting them are only a part of the immigration process. We also realize immigrants often need very specific support services to help them integrate into their new home. The Adult English as a Second Language Program supported by Citizenship is one of the most important services for newcomers. This training consists of multilevel partnerships co-ordinated, supported and monitored by the Citizenship division, jointly funded by the federal government and delivered through community groups, employers and school divisions.

Unfortunately, while the provincial commitment remains steadfast knowing the importance of language and people's integration into our society, there will be a reduction in federal funding in all ESL programs, some of them quite seriously.

Other areas concerning Manitoba's role in immigration continue to be defined with our federal counterparts. We remain concerned that the present settlement renewal process that has been undertaken by the federal government will result in further federal funding cuts to immigrant services in Manitoba.

In May, Manitoba met with federal immigration officials as part of the follow-up to the signing of the Memorandum of Understanding in October of 1994. At that meeting we again raised the province's concern that the proposed federal sponsorship bond is not a positive initiative, in our view, nor is the imposition of any type of landing fee.

We will continue to work with all parties to resolve and clarify these concerns. Manitoba is committed to having a strong voice in the recruitment of immigrants for our community, and I am confident our current differences will not prevent our achievement of this goal.

Culture, Heritage and Citizenship is responsible for a very diverse array of programs, services and initiatives. Members opposite should be cognisant of the benefits which fall to our Justice, Family Services and Health budgets, and our economic attractiveness, when all Manitobans achieve a sense of pride and well-being, and an enhanced quality of life within their communities.

Since I became minister, I have come to appreciate the far-reaching impact of this department's actions and to be proud of the excellent staff who contribute so much to this department's success. From innovative immigration initiatives to the electronic development of our informational resources, Culture, Heritage and Citizenship is making tremendous progress in helping Manitoba prepare to be a strong competitor in the world of the 21st Century. We are confident that our efforts will enhance the ability of Manitobans of all origins to enjoy our rich heritage, explore their creative talents and artistic skills, access diverse recreation opportunities and to reach their fullest potentials.

Manitoba Culture, Heritage and Citizenship is very proud of its role in working with Manitobans to build a better community today as well as for the generations of tomorrow. The information contained in the 1995-96 Estimates before you reflects our commitment to meeting this great responsibility through the effective and efficient use of our fiscal resources. With those few words, I would be pleased to hear from the opposition critics and take any questions they may have.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the Minister of Culture for those comments. Does the official opposition critic the honourable member for Osborne have any comments?

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Yes, I do. I would like to begin by thanking the minister for his remarks. He has already begun answering my questions.

I would also like to say that I share his respect for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. I also appreciate the holistic nature of his ministry.

This is my first time in Estimates and I am looking forward to it as a challenge. I am looking forward to working with the minister. I am looking forward to the Estimates process and I suppose, more than anything, I am looking forward to broadening my knowledge of the ministry through the Estimates process. I understand that our time is brief and my Estimates time will be shared with the honourable member from Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes). Therefore, I am going to keep my opening remarks rather brief.

I wanted to begin by sharing with the minister my view of culture. I wanted to tell him that I see culture, as I am sure he does, as more than a frill which enhances the quality of life, but rather, it seems to me, culture is a visible manifestation of our civilized life itself. It is a cornerstone or a building block in our definitions of ourselves both as individuals and as a people. Without arts and culture, indeed, without heritage and citizenship, it seems to me we would have a society of mere anarchy or I suppose another extreme would be bloodless technocracy.

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Therefore, like the minister, I am sure I view culture not as necessarily leisure but rather as the heart and spirit of civilized life itself which, of course, is not to deny that culture provides us with entertainment or that we engage in cultural activities most often in leisure time. But I think the primary raison d'être of culture is to remind us of who we are as thinking, feeling, creative beings alive in the '90s, the inheritors, being Canadians, the inheritors of many traditions, we are certainly an eclectic people and culturally, we are a very eclectic society.

Some of the questions that I would like to bring up in the course of the Estimates, I am certainly interested in the minister's particular views on culture and his concerns about culture. I have some specific questions about the Film Classification Board and about MAC.

Having been a researcher at one time for the National Film Board, I am very interested in film. My personal history as a writer or an editor means that I have had quite close contact with the publishing industry in Manitoba and, of course, by axiomatically with other arts groups, so I have some points that I want to make, particularly in regard to the publishing industry.

I know that artists in Manitoba and arts groups feel themselves to be under seige, feel that their futures are threatened and that their presence are tenuous and, of course, I do not mean to dump this at the doorstep of the province. This is, in a large part, the climate of the times. I have spent a lot of time during the past few weeks speaking to various groups about their concerns, and I hope that Estimates will give me time to raise some of those community questions and especially questions related to policies and granting procedures.

The artists that I have spoken to feel concerned about funding staying relatively the same. They feel that when it stays the same that people often breathe a sigh of relief, but in reality the arts community is growing and inflation is increasing costs and artists feel that there is little recognition of these factors. For example, tax legislation does not really work in their interests, and I understand that to be a federal jurisdiction, but nonetheless it is a concern for artists when they need to have materials and this sort of thing that cannot be deducted, always. I am sure, in some cases, it can.

The arts community in Winnipeg is particularly concerned about the threat of a 10 percent amusement tax and wonders about its effects on ticket sales and performance attendance.

The community is also concerned about the trickle-down effect to the arts on the cuts to federal transfer payments. I think that is obviously a very legitimate concern and we have to pay attention to it. Some of the groups have expressed fears that with the huge influx of public money to the Jets, fundraising in the arts community will become more difficult. I have heard that particularly from people at the Winnipeg Art Gallery. I suppose that would be even more a threat if donations to the arena are awarded charitable tax status.

Small magazines fear that the cancellation by Cultural Industries of the Marketing Projects Supports Program for magazines, which was cancelled two years ago, has seriously eroded magazine subscriptions. This was a program that provided money for direct mail campaigns, and I know from personal experience that magazines depend on direct mail campaigns and without them subscription lists dwindle and a lot of our small local magazines have or will face threat of closure. Here I speak very personally as a former editor of Contemporary Verse 2, which very nearly closed this spring and only continues by the skin of its teeth, and I would say also by exploiting its staff, but that is another matter.

Certainly our small local magazines, of which I think we all can be very proud, magazines like Prairie Fire, CV2, Border Crossings, they have all been recognized with literary awards. Certainly these magazines, with the end of the provincial marketing and project support programs and in conjunction with cuts from the Canada Council Marketing Programs, feel that they have been dealt a double whammy, which makes it also impossible for them to achieve their full potential and, as I said, maybe stay open at all.

I do not want to speak as if Culture, Heritage and Citizenship begins and ends with small magazines, but I do have a couple of other points about publishing. So let me make them quickly.

First of all, I would like to point out that it is extremely difficult for small magazines to attract private donors and funders. For one thing, magazines are less focused than other arts. They travel well but they are not performance art and they do not have the profile of other arts forms. So I think that they really do require public support.

The second point I wanted to make again is related to small magazines. Most of our Manitoba writers begin their publishing careers in small magazines, and if we are to lose these magazines we will certainly lose our poets and our writers. It will deal a blow to our entire literary community. The literary production in our province will suffer. I think that we are all aware that we have a very proud literary history. One thinks immediately of Carol Shields and how she was honoured just this spring. Of course, we have writers like Margaret Laurence--well, we do not have her anymore--but my point is that we have a very proud literary history in Manitoba. It certainly would be a shame to lose our reputation and our writers.

So my almost last point is one that I want to refer back to the broader community of artists. Many of the artists and the groups to whom I have spoken feel that their contributions to the economy are not properly respected. Book publishers, sellers, cultural organizations, filmmakers, entertainers of every stripe, many feel that through their cultural industries they generate incomes and jobs but that their economic contributions are not properly acknowledged and that they are not acknowledged as valid parts of the workforce.

I keep thinking of Bramwell Tovey, who I think is famous now for pointing out that the entire annual salary of the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra falls somewhat shy of the salary of a single Jet. I do not know which Jet he was thinking of, but I do not think the point really requires elaboration. Hockey is staggeringly important and music by comparison is not.

I am also interested in the DeFehr Report but perhaps we can return to it and I will finish for now.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): We thank the critic from the official opposition for those remarks.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Yes, Mr. Chairperson, I would ask or seek leave from the committee in order to give a very brief opening comment.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): Is there leave from the committee for the member for Inkster to make an opening statement? [agreed]

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Mr. Lamoureux: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson, and committee members. Suffice it to say, here we are in celebration of our 125th birthday in the province of Manitoba and no doubt we could talk about the benefits of being in Manitoba. One of the biggest benefits that we have to appreciate is in fact our culture and our heritage. I personally as we go through the summer will, as I am sure many members of the Legislature will, participate in different events where we will hear how wonderful it is to be in Manitoba and how fortunate we really are.

The member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford) quite eloquently, and in all likelihood a lot better than I could have, put on the record the importance of many of the industries that are out there, whether it is the filming or publishing and the value of our arts programs, whether it would be, let us say, the ballet or the symphony, and how all of this adds up to what really Manitoba is all about.

The minister, in his opening remarks, also made reference to the importance of immigration, and even though my legislative responsibilities from within the party somewhat prevent me from participating in great depth in every different issue that is out there, immigration is an issue on which I do plan on spending some time. It is not necessarily to defend the federal government, but it is to ensure that the facts are in fact known and to ensure that the government is doing what it can with respect to that particular issue.

With those few words, again, I appreciate committee members for allowing me to say a few words.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): Under Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of a department. Accordingly, we shall defer consideration of this item and now proceed with the consideration of the next line.

At this time we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table and we ask that the minister introduce his staff present.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I would like to introduce the staff who are with me at the table: Tom Carson, Deputy Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, the longest serving deputy in the government of Manitoba; Lou-Anne Buhr, who is the ADM for Culture, Heritage and Recreation; and Dave Paton, who is executive director of Management Services.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): We are now on item 1. Administration and Finance (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $395,500, on page 31 of the Estimates book and on page 23 of the yellow supplemental book.

Ms. McGifford: Before discussing 14-1(b), I wanted to ask for some clarification in regard to the table, Schedule 2, which I believe is on page 5.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Is that the organizational chart?

Ms. McGifford: It is indeed the organizational chart. The reason I would like to ask about it is, I would like to ask particularly about the boxes at the top of the page, the ones in the dotted lines, and how they relate to the minister. What is the relationship? I am sorry. Probably I--why am I sorry? I am learning.

Mr. Gilleshammer: A very fair question. On the org chart we show a number of boxes at the top there which are boards that relate to our department. I will just maybe go through a few of them, and if there is one you would like to ask questions about, I can answer specific questions on that.

On the far right, the Manitoba Film Classification Board, we have a board of about 21 members who are citizens from the community that sit on that board and perform a number of functions for government, one of which is to view films and tapes and to classify them as to the system we use here in Manitoba.

The Manitoba Arts Council is another group of great Manitobans who have been appointed to the Arts Council for one- and two- and three-year periods who meet a few times every month. There is an executive that they have in place, staff--I am not sure what the staff level there is. It is about 10-12 people, but the board is the policy-making group, and they administer a budget which we transfer to them of some several millions of dollars. They give grants to arts groups throughout the province.

The Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature and the Planetarium is another board which is appointed by government to oversee the operation of the Manitoba Museum, to make policy decisions. In turn, they have a staff that carry out the day-to-day work there.

Maybe I will just mention one more, and if there is any one you want to ask questions about you can do that. The Public Library Advisory Board is a board that was appointed by the previous minister who looked at library services in Manitoba and brought a report back to government that we made public last year and which generated a number of very positive changes in the library system across Manitoba.

Some of the points which I mentioned in my earlier remarks, the automation of those public libraries, the training component for rural librarians who tend to be part-time. They are not people who have degrees in library science. Probably the other recommendation was increased funding, and we were so pleased last year to come up with about a million dollars of additional funding for our rural libraries.

Part of that was a collection development grant which has enabled them to improve their collections, and if you have travelled or when you do travel through rural Manitoba, you will see quite a variety of libraries, some much more sophisticated than others, but the fact that we are going to be able to connect them electronically is going to allow for greater sharing of resources.

So those two, four, six, eight, 10 boards are boards which are appointed by government through this department and we flow funding to them, and they all have very specific jobs that they do within the community we are responsible for.

Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chairman, I do have questions about the Manitoba Arts Council and about the Manitoba Film Classification Board, but perhaps I could delay them until later in the Estimates period.

I am wondering about the board of the Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature and the Planetarium and the minister mentioned that Manitobans form the board. I wondered what the criteria are for appointments to that board and secondly, the length of the appointments and thirdly, if they are salaried.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Okay, I will just answer the last question first. There is no salary paid to them. The criteria is that they are Manitobans and hopefully with an interest in that area. The board consists of around 20 members; half of them are appointed by government and half of them are nominated and elected at the annual meeting which takes place. The people who are appointed are ones who have expressed an interest in the growth and development of the museum.

Certainly receiving the Hudson's Bay collection last year--I am not sure if the member was at the official opening there but there is just a tremendous interest in the museum. It is one board that we have no trouble attracting people to serve on. There is an annual meeting where they do elect half the board, and I would point out that the chairman is also elected at that particular time.

We are so proud of the museum. When you talk to school principals and teachers and groups that come in from across the province, inevitably it is one of the stops that they make as they visit that museum. I know as a former principal and teacher we often had students from western Manitoba come in. I had a group in just yesterday from an elementary school in Strathclair and they were going on to the museum after they stopped here at the Legislature.

So the length of the appointments, I think, are two-year appointments, and there is frequently a turnover as people serve their term and go on to other interests, but that is the board that is in place at this time.

Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chairman, I certainly share the minister's enthusiasm for both the Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature, although I do not care for the title particularly for obvious reasons, and also for the Planetarium. I was wondering, the government appointments, if the people appointed have particular skills that explain their appointment or is it mere interest?--which I do not mean to denigrate so perhaps I should not say "mere." Is it interest?

Mr. Gilleshammer: When the people are elected, they certainly are people with an interest in attending annual meetings and being part of the museum community. As a government when we look for appointments we look for a balance, certainly people who are interested in the development and growth of the museum. We also have an interest from time to time to appoint people with other skills, accountants, business people, lawyers sometimes. So with 20 people you can appreciate you do get a good balance on the board, but they have a lot of decisions to make around the expenditure of money and the programs that they are going to go ahead with.

There are frequently travelling shows that board members have to make a decision on along with the staff to see if that is something which would complement the history of the museum and interest the public. At the same time there is usually a cost to those shows too, and there is a business decision that has to be made. So we always look for a balance in making our appointments and take recommendations from existing board members who feel that maybe there is a gap of either interest or talent on the board, and from time to time they make suggestions and recommendations which certainly are given due consideration.

Ms. McGifford: My understanding then is that out of the 20 members, there is a possibility at least 20 of them being community members?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am not sure I fully understand the question. You are saying community members as opposed to government bureaucrats.

Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chairman, I meant community members as opposed to government appointments.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Half of the board is appointed, half the board is elected.

Ms. McGifford: Turning to the Public Library Advisory Board, do the same general guidelines apply?

Mr. Gilleshammer: This was a board appointed by the previous minister, and it is in legislation as to who was on the board. If you give me a minute here, I can maybe give you some more background on that. I know that there is somebody from the university community, others from the community libraries across the province and somebody from the Manitoba Library Association. They work very, very diligently through the period leading up to the release of their report.

I can maybe give you the names of the current members of that board. Mr. Earle Ferguson, who is the chair, was appointed in 1989. He is a librarian at St. Paul's College at the U of M and a former director of libraries at the U of M. Iris Loewen, who was also appointed in 1989, is chief librarian at the South Central Regional Library, that is Morden, Winkler and Altona. Marlene Genaille was appointed in 1993. She is a school librarian in The Pas, Manitoba. Linda Pleskach, appointed in 1993, is chief librarian at Brokenhead River Regional Library in Beausejour, and part-time teacher with the Rural Library Technology program at Red River Community College. Katharine Dawson who is a teacher at La Broquerie, and she served on this board and has recently resigned. Plus we have ex officio members, the deputy, one of our ADMs who is here at the table, and Ms. Sylvia Nicholson who runs the Public Library Services at our office in Brandon. I guess that is the current information.

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Ms. McGifford: I have a few other questions about the Library Advisory Board. I am wondering if the positions--again, I would like to know whether there is any remuneration. Secondly, are the positions at pleasure or are they term positions? Maybe we can start there.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, there is no remuneration for these board members, and I would be interested in the member's view, whether she thinks there should be or not. Out-of-pocket expenses for travel are covered by the department, and the terms for these board members, I believe, are two-year terms.

Ms. McGifford: So then they are term positions. I would certainly have to give it thought as to whether I thought the members should be paid or receive some sort of honorarium or stipend for their work. It certainly seems reasonable for them to have their out-of-pocket expenses reimbursed. Could I ask how often the board meets?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am informed that they meet every six to eight weeks.

Ms. McGifford: They are what you might describe as a working board then.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, they are a working board, and I cannot stress enough what a great job they did in evaluating and analyzing the library system in Manitoba and bringing back to government a number of recommendations which I think have allowed us to make tremendous improvements in the rural libraries in Manitoba.

I know that I had the opportunity to go to the grand opening of the library in Stonewall last fall, and I can tell you there was just tremendous community support for the library, which is so nice to see, because often in many parts of rural Manitoba the library is on the pecking order far below the local curling rink and hockey rink and other community facilities. If you ever have a chance to go out to Stonewall, it is just an ultramodern library, a beautiful building, tremendous number of staff and volunteers, and the support of so many municipal levels of government that came together to contribute to that library.

Out in the western part of the province, in Brandon, there is a wonderful facility there which is part of a complex which also houses other organizations funded by government and gets reasonable support from the City of Brandon. In the Parkland Region we have just a wonderful network of about 18 libraries connected to the main office in Dauphin. They have been very, I think, pleased and impressed with the generous contribution we have been able to make to them, to develop their collections in those libraries and to support the bookmobile which they run there, which travels from one community to another and allows the various libraries to share the resources that are available.

The recommendation that this particular board brought forward to us is that we increase the grants to those libraries, and, as I say, we are pleased to increase them by 50 percent, and we have also given extra support, financial support, to develop those collections. We have given support through the Community Services Council to automate those libraries and get them hooked up, and I think some 31 of them now are partially or almost completely on their way to automation.

I think this board, maybe one of the most important things they have done is developed an atmosphere of resource sharing out there, so that knowing full well that small community libraries cannot be all things to all people, the resources are now being shared between our office and Brandon and amongst those libraries across rural Manitoba.

We have also decided that there is an ongoing role for the Public Library Advisory Board. They were set up in 1989, I believe, to review the libraries in rural Manitoba and bring forward this report, but in my meetings with them, there is a desire on their part--at one time it was thought that that was their objective and that we would disband them. But we feel there is an ongoing role for them because even though we have put tremendous new resources in there, there are new facilities out there, there is automation, there is still a role to play. As you could tell from the members on that committee that I read out to you, these are people that are quite involved within their own community libraries and want to continue to bring advice to government on how we can make those good and great libraries even better.

Ms. McGifford: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if I could have a copy of the Public Library Advisory Board, the persons on it.

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Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told we do not have one with us, but I would be most happy to have a copy brought on Monday or when we next meet or have one delivered to your caucus office so that you can have a look at the work that they did.

Ms. McGifford: I thank the minister for that. One other very general question, then, about this organizational chart. Can I ask if these councils, boards, advisory groups, committees, are what we would describe as an arm's-length group, or do they report directly to the minister?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I would say that they are all arm's length from government. They are appointed to run facilities and other funding that goes to organizations across the province. Our role is to meet with them to take their advice to provide funding for them which they in turn grant to groups across the province. They are in fact for the most part arm's length.

Ms. McGifford: My question about their being at arm's length and being independent, of course, was not to suggest that I saw anything anomalous about it at all. So then the process would be, for example, to have the Manitoba Arts Council receive a sum of money which it grants and for which it is responsible internally unto itself.

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Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, that is correct. The budget figure just escapes me at the moment, but it is around $7 million that they administer. They have an office in the downtown area with a few staff. They make their decisions on their budget, on how they are going to break out their budget and make their grant awards. In many cases where it involves decisions they use a jury system to give them advice. I can tell you, from meeting with the chair and members of the Arts Council in recent times, they are very pleased that our government has been able to maintain the current level of funding for them as they face funding cutbacks from the federal government and from the municipal level of government. At the same time, funding for groups that they in turn support, we have been able to maintain that funding, and they have been able to maintain that level of activities that they have historically and traditionally supported here in Manitoba.

Ms. McGifford: Indeed, I have had the opportunity to appear as a presenter before the Manitoba Arts Council, or maybe I should say as one wanting funds. I share your respect for the group.

I have some questions about the Manitoba Arts Council as far as how one becomes a councillor and again whether--the same general questions I had about the other two groups, and I wonder if we could just deal with those quickly then.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Again, I am just trying to recall your questions. They do not get paid for it, just out-of-pocket expenses. In appointing people to the Arts Council I guess we look for some gender balance on the council. We look for some geographical balance so that different parts of Manitoba are represented on there. We look for sort of a balance of interests.

The Arts Council deals with many groups across the province who wish to have funds for a variety of purposes, and so from time to time as we need new members, the board again may have a feeling that they need somebody with an expertise in financial matters or an expertise in some other area, and we look at those recommendations and follow those guidelines of having people from across the province appointed. It is a tremendous service they provide for government and for the communities that they represent, and, again, very appreciative that there are such a wide variety of people that are prepared to give of their time and talent to serve the community and serve government in working on these boards, and I think the system, by and large, works very well.

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Ms. McGifford: My understanding is that the Manitoba Arts Council provides grants to writers, various kinds of artists. Are there any other arts groups or groups of artists, kinds of artists to which the Manitoba Arts Council provides granting?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I can give the member just a partial list. It will just take me a few minutes to give sort of a flavour of the work that they do. They have, what they call, arts and audience development grants which people across the province and groups across the province apply for, and these are usually small grants that are given out to a variety of groups across the province. They also have funding for arts education, for organizations and for individuals. Some of their funds go for program expenses, some for jurors and assessors.

In the performing arts, some money is allotted for dance. Again, there are organizations across the province that avail themselves of some of these grants. There are organizations and individuals and, again, small sums for some of the jurors and assessors. In the performing arts, grants are awarded to music, and, again, these can be organizations or individuals. Also, in the performing arts, in the area of theatre, there is a number of grants that are given out. There are some monies set aside for touring. There is money for visual artists, and, again, these grants tend to go to individuals; grants for writers, and for publishing, and a small grant for something called anniversary programs and arts program delivery, and also a small sum for communications. I had already indicated within their budget line that there is some permanent staff which requires some of the funds that we transfer to the Arts Council to take part of that particular budget.

Ms. McGifford: I think, from my experience, it is a very capable permanent staff. Since the Manitoba Arts Council then gives money to virtually every branch of the arts--we have mentioned dance, writing, music, theatre, visual artists; you mentioned publishing, money for touring--I am wondering if artists are included as councillors and if there is an effort to poll the community, see if artists in the community wish to nominate people to the Manitoba Arts Council?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I know that there are many times that the Arts Council receives advice from specific interest groups and specific arts groups. There is also an interdisciplinary advisory committee that provides background information to the board, and we do, in our nominations to the board, attempt to have a few artists on the board as well.

Ms. McGifford: Can the minister tell me if there are currently any artists on the board and who they are?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I do not have a list of board members here, but I can provide that for you when we next meet.

Ms. McGifford: I think that those are all the questions that I wanted to ask about the chart, and I thank the minister for his indulgence. I wonder if I could ask some questions under subappropriation 1.(b).

I have a question under salaries. I wonder, under professional and technical, first of all, who are these people, what are their positions, what are their salaries, and what do they specifically do?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, in my office I have an executive assistant and a special assistant, as all or most ministers do, and I also have three other staff. One is an appointments secretary and two clerical.

In the deputy's office there is the deputy minister and three office staff within his office. Are the salaries in your book there?

Ms. McGifford: I am referring to the line Professional/Technical and I see that there are two staff years and a total salary of $71,600, and I just wondered who was who and how much each person got paid.

Mr. Gilleshammer: The two Professional/Technical staff within my office would be my special assistant, his name is Keith Stewart, and the other staff would be my executive assistant, and his name is Derrick Turner.

Ms. McGifford: I am also wondering about the employee benefits, because I have noticed that in just about every department they seem to be lower this year than they were last, and I did not want to ask this with each subappropriation, but I wondered if there is a kind of universal explanation for that and if the minister would share that with me.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, you are absolutely right, there is a universal answer. I am told there is one less pay period.

Ms. McGifford: I thank the minister for that. I wanted to ask a couple of questions under subappropriation 14, 1.(d), and here I notice that under the Activity Identification, one of the activities identified is, co-ordinates and supports affirmative action initiatives consistent with government policy and progress towards established goals and objectives. It is quite a mouthful. As the critic for the Status of Women, I am very interested in affirmative action, and I wondered what the objectives of the department's affirmative action program are.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Our objectives are the same as the government objectives as set out by the Civil Service Commission.

Ms. McGifford: Are there any specific objectives for the minister's department?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Our objective is to meet those targets that have been set by the Civil Service Commission and meet them or exceed them, and if you want the specific goals of the affirmative action policy, the government goal with the hiring of women is that 50 percent of the staff be women, and I might tell you that as of September 30, 1994, which is some months ago, but this is still a good statistic, I think, because we have not had a lot of change, 67 percent of the staff in Culture, Heritage and Citizenship are women. I might also point out that division heads, the present figure we have is that 80 percent of the division heads within Culture, Heritage and Citizenship are women, and 57 percent of the branch directors.

As I indicated, we attempt to meet the guidelines and in many cases we exceed them.

Ms. McGifford: I congratulate the minister on his success in affirmative action for women. I am curious as to whether there is any specific explanation for this, because he may have hit upon a formula that he could share with other government departments or the world at large.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I would like to take the credit for it, but most of the staff that have been in this department have been here for longer than I have. I think that we enjoy a lot of stability within the staffing of our department and have many talented people who not only enjoy their role in serving the public of Manitoba but have, I think, an interest in the clients that our department serves.

I can tell you that the professional manner in which our staff conduct themselves brings forth many compliments from the public we serve. I know in the arts community, as I attend events across the province--I do not want to make my staff blush and feel self-conscience--I do get many compliments from the community we serve in the ability that they display but also the ability of government to maintain our funding and support for, I think, a very rich culture we have here in Manitoba.

As I said in my opening remarks, I see us as the department that is responsible to a great degree for the quality of life that we enjoy in this province. As I get to know the member better I guess I will get a better understanding of the interests that she has in the cultural field and the travels that she has done within our province.

I tell you, I just go to events in Brandon, in Dauphin and northern Manitoba and the client base that we serve feel the staff have worked very hard to provide both the funding and the information and the services they require. I think those compliments and that assessment of the department goes right through the community. I know that many of the staff have been developed within the department, as well, and have spent some time here. It goes right across the entire staff. They have a heightened awareness of the issues and the importance of providing the services and programs that we have, and I know that within the staff there are professional development opportunities that many of them avail themselves of from time to time, and I am pleased to see them do that.

In our Citizenship branch, for instance, where we are struggling with issues from time to time, they have developed a program called the Respectful Workplace which has been very well accepted by staff within the department, and we have other departments across government who are asking questions about us doing some training for them. I believe we have even had some out-of-province interest in that program and some private-sector interest in that program because everybody out there, of course, with budget decisions to make and wanting to have a workplace which is not only productive but one that is happy, are looking for ways to achieve that respectful workplace. I am very pleased that branch of our department has taken a leadership role in that area.

Ms. McGifford: I wanted to assure the minister that I do have rural roots and that I do enjoy travel in Manitoba. I am particularly interested in, I suppose, our heritage properties and heritage sites throughout the province. But to get back to the question of affirmative action, as I said, I think the record on women is most impressive, and I wondered about other groups, aboriginals and other visible minority groups.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, the government goal for visible minorities is 6 percent, and it happens we are at 6 percent. The native community where there is a government goal of 10 percent, we are far short of that. In the disabled community where there is a government goal of 7 percent, we are at 5 percent.

Ms. McGifford: So then I assume that the department will be working on those issues.

Mr. Gilleshammer: As my earlier comments indicated, we do have a department where I think we have not had a lot of turnover, and you can appreciate with people happy in the service that it is difficult to create those opportunities to work on those others. But we are mindful of those targets, and we will continue to work towards them.

Ms. McGifford: I wonder if we could talk about the Manitoba Film Classification Board. I said in my opening remarks, I think, that I was very interested in this board. I have always wanted to be a member of the Film Classification Board. I suppose because I love movies, and seeing free movies is extremely appealing. So I wonder if you could give me some details about membership in the Film Classification Board. Again, I think you did mention in your introductory remarks the number of members. I think the minister mentioned in his introductory remarks the number, but I wonder if he could refresh my memory, and again I am interested in how these people are appointed, what their specific qualifications are, and whether it is a term appointment or a pleasure appointment. Maybe I can pass it to the minister.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I mentioned earlier that this was a board of 21. We have just counted them up. There are actually 22 members on the board. They tend to serve basically in panels of three, as they are called in to spend a day here and a day there, to view some of the movies that are brought to Manitoba. Of course, before they can be shown, they have to go through this process. I am interested in the member's interest in serving on the board. I do think we have got a barrier, though, in that normally we do not appoint MLAs who are sitting to the board, but perhaps after the next election we could accommodate the member.

There is a lot of interest in the board. People write in from time to time, and names are suggested by community groups for service on this board. They are appointed basically for two-year terms, and again we try and get sort of a rural-urban balance, a gender balance, and one of the difficulties is finding people with a flexible schedule so that they can come in for that opportunity to serve on the board.

The film class board is one board that we have not had difficulty attracting people to, and I suppose maybe it is for the same reasons the member gave for her interest in it. Most of them are there for two years, and then they can be reappointed, if the interest is still there and their time permits. They receive per diems for attending the meetings, and again we try and get representation from various backgrounds. We are aware that some of the members have to be fluent in French. There are other qualifications we look for from time to time, and we often rely on the chair of the board to say: We have got three or four resignations. When you appoint members next time, we need somebody in this area or that area.

I do not know whether I have answered all the questions or not, but if there are others, I can take them.

Ms. McGifford: I would like to tell the Minister of Culture that if I am not the Minister of Culture after the next election, maybe I will sit on the classification board.

I would like to know who the chairperson of the board is and whether there is remuneration for this work.

Mr. Gilleshammer: The chair of the board at the present time is Barbara Cannell, and there is a per diem paid for that position.

Ms. McGifford: Is the per diem paid only to the chair, or is it to other persons when they are involved in the Film Classification Board's work?

Mr. Gilleshammer: All members who serve are paid a per diem.

Ms. McGifford: Could the minister please tell me what the per diem is?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I can. The per diem for the chair is $95, and for other members it is $75.

Ms. McGifford: Could the minister tell me under what budget line that money appears?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I am told it is under subappropriation 14.1(e) the Manitoba Film Classification Board, 1.(e)(2).

Ms. McGifford: I am confused. I cannot find 1.(e)(2) in my book. I can just find--thank you for the help.

Which particular line is it? Is it Personal Services? Is it Supplies and Services?

Mr. Gilleshammer: The per diems are listed under Personnel Services.

Ms. McGifford: Could the minister tell me how much we pay, the Province of Manitoba pays each year for per diems, a total figure?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, last year's actual was $58,000.

Ms. McGifford: So $58,000 is the cost of per diems for the Film Classification Board?

Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct.

Ms. McGifford: Does the board ever meet with the public?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that they normally do not unless there is new programming or changes, and they do have some public meetings.

Ms. McGifford: If a member of the public had a complaint, for example, about one of the Film Classification Board's decisions, would members of the board meet with that person?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I might just add for the member, we also do have some permanent staff there, so the letters of concern or expressions of concern may go to the staff. They may be directed to the chair of the board, or in fact from time to time they may write to the minister's office.

Ms. McGifford: Yes, I had a couple of questions about licensing. I understand that last year there was a licensing--or I suppose this is an Expected Result, 900 video retail outlets. I am wondering if these outlets are licensed every year, and I am also wondering if the licence has a--do the retail outlet people pay for the licence?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, they are licensed every year, and there is a licence fee.

Ms. McGifford: So inspectors go to the video stores on a yearly basis and determine whether it is going to be licensed?

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Mr. Gilleshammer: The inspection is done when there is a complaint registered, and from time to time they do visit other outlets, and the licences are applied for and received on an annual basis.

Ms. McGifford: Just a point of clarification then. These 900 video retail outlets--and presumably the number will be growing--are, I guess, licensed each year. They pay for the licence and then when there is a complaint they are visited to investigate this complaint.

Mr. Gilleshammer: For the most part that is correct.

Ms. McGifford: What is considered in the granting of a licence?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, they have to have a retail operation and be of good character and be legitimately in a retail business.

Ms. McGifford: I am interested in good character.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I guess the example I would give is, if they have a conviction under the Criminal Code they are not licensed.

Ms. McGifford: I think I understand from the objective of the Film Classification Board that the point is not to censor but merely to categorize.

Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct.

Ms. McGifford: I do not think the minister told me the cost of a licence.

Mr. Gilleshammer: The official fee is $95 and there is a slight discount for early payment of that to encourage compliance.

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Ms. McGifford: One of the reasons for my questions about licensing is, as a member of a number of women groups there are of course, as I am sure the minister knows, groups in Winnipeg who think that there are some video retail outlets that are apparently licensed that should not be, but I do not really want to pursue that line of questioning.

I would like to ask a couple of questions about the inspection of theatres. I read that the expected result is that there will be an inspection of 20 theatres. Is that province-wide, first question; second question, what is being inspected for at theatres; and third question, why 20, is that an ad hoc number or what does that figure represent?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that about 20 theatres are inspected annually. That is both rural and urban. There are other inspections if there are complaints, but I am told that there are very, very few complaints that come in. The inspection is, I suppose, for the purpose of complying with the regulations that exist within the province of Manitoba to see that operators are living up to the guidelines that have been set within regulations and to see that they are adhering to the age restriction that is part of the regulation.

Ms. McGifford: So then the inspection of theatres is really more an inspection of films than it is of theatres?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I guess the two are kind of entwined, are they not? The operator of the facility has certain responsibilities that they have to live up to. Some of those responsibilities relate to the clientele that are being served, relate it to the film that is being shown. They are also subject to other inspections, of course, by building inspectors and others who have an interest in seeing that safe conditions exist, and that the regulations that are in place for public buildings are being adhered to.

Ms. McGifford: When I read that there have been licences--900 for video retail outlets and 175 inspections of video stores--are video retail outlets and video stores indeed the same thing and is it that 175 are inspected but they are all licensed?

Mr. Gilleshammer: My staff indicate generally yes. I guess in many endeavours that government is involved in you could always have more inspectors if in fact it was deemed appropriate to inspect everyone annually or more frequently. We have a rather limited staff in this particular branch. I think it is a staff of three who have other responsibilities as well.

Basically it is a complaints-driven inspection, but there is also, over and above that, some annual inspections so that these places can be expected to be inspected every few years. Again, there are not a lot of complaints that come into the branch, but when they are made they are taken seriously. In many cases there has been some misunderstanding either on the part of the person making the complaint or perhaps on the retailer. Through discussion and meetings, often these issues can be clarified and the complaints can be satisfied. I will just leave it at that.

Ms. McGifford: I appreciate the lack of human resources that we sometimes have to deal with, so I did not mean to imply that all 900 video retail outlets should be inspected. I guess I was more interested in why these 175 would have been chosen for inspection and if it were complaint driven or if it were a rotating rostrum. If it is complaint driven, I wonder if I could have a copy, a list, is it possible to have a list of the 175 video stores that were inspected?

Mr. Gilleshammer: We certainly do not have that information here. I will check with the film classification people to see what sort of records they have. Again, a small minority of the inspections that are done are complaint driven but I would be happy to share whatever information we have with the honourable member.

Ms. McGifford: Again, I am interested in complaints about videos or, indeed, about movies more because of the feminist perspective that I bring to politics. I wonder if the minister could tell me the number of complaints that the department receives on a yearly basis or, at least, a ballpark figure?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that the complaints that come to the Film Board would be less than a dozen per year. I would also make the point that, I suppose, some complaints from the public may go directly to the police enforcement agency in that jurisdiction and, in fact, we may never hear about them because they may not be related to the evaluation or the category the film is put in. Justice may have some statistics on that but our statistics show less than a dozen complaints annually come to the Film Classification Board.

Ms. McGifford: The minister's remarks bring up another question for me about the actual work of the Film Classification Board and the idea that the work of the board is to classify but not censor film and videotape. If wonder if, does the board then look at everything? There are some quite violent, pornographic, sexist films around and I wonder what the board does with those.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told since 1972 that there has not been a censorship function of the board here in Manitoba. So it goes back a couple of decades. What they do is classify them and describe them so that the public in fact understands what the film is about. Then they make that decision about whether they are going to view it or purchase it or whatever.

Ms. McGifford: But if the Film Classification Board were to see a movie which it believed violated our legislation on pornography, for example, what would the board do with such a film? What decision would a board make about such a film?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that most product is not submitted to the board here in Manitoba. There is a lot of product out there that never entered this jurisdiction, but we leave the decisions on pornography and other issues to the law enforcement to adjudicate as far as how it measures up to the Criminal Code.

I am told that possibly the only jurisdiction, or one of the jurisdictions in the West, anyway, that has censorship powers is in the province of Alberta. I think in 1972 changes were made here in Manitoba which moved us in a direction where the board and government do not censor films, but even though that power in Alberta is legally there, it has not been exercised in over 10 years. So I do not think Manitoba is out of step with the western provinces.

I would tell you that there are other issues around the film class board that we are working on that might be of interest to the member. It has long been my belief that we do not need 10 or 12 film classification boards across the country, and most of the other provinces agree to that. There has been a fair amount of work done in recent years with film classification groups and governments in other jurisdictions to see if there is not a sort of national function or at least a western Canadian function of monitoring and classifying movies. I have not personally attended meetings with ministers, but I know staff here at the table have, and other events that are occurring at the present time in Saskatchewan and possibly in B.C. are preventing us from perhaps making a little more progress towards a western Canadian classification of movies.

At the present time it is an example of a lot of duplication that government is involved in across the country.

Ms. McGifford: Thank you for that information. Then, to get back to the workings of the Film Classification Board, it is possible for the board to have viewed and classified a movie that will be shown publicly and for that movie then to be seized by law enforcement officers and deemed to be--I do not know what the correct word is--ineligible for viewing, degrading.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, my understanding is that the Film Classification Board does not play the role of determining whether a film would warrant prosecution or not. That is the responsibility of the police and the Justice department. Again I go back to an earlier comment, or I make another comment first, that the Film Classification Board I guess is not in a position to make that sort of legal judgment and determination that has to be done by the courts.

I go back to a previous point that the vast majority of the type of presentation that the member is concerned about is not entering Manitoba and is perhaps vetted in different jurisdictions. Manitoba, again, a very small market for films, and even though the classification board is busy, there is a tremendous amount of product that is being produced worldwide, and I think that the producers and the distributors of the type of material that the member is concerned about are aware that there are other jurisdictions where that product is more acceptable and that our board does not see a lot of product that is objectionable.

What we tend to see has been carefully and skillfully chosen to be within the laws even if on a personal level we might be upset and deplore the presentation that is made in that movie or film. We also are aware that it is up to the Justice department to make those final determinations.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): The time is now 2 p.m. Committee rise.