Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Please come to order.
This section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Energy and Mines.
Does the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines have an opening statement?
Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Energy and Mines): Yes, Mr. Chair, first of all, I would just like to thank my critic. She appreciates some of the scheduling difficulties I have today with my constituency, and as a consequence of her understanding, I am going to reduce my statement and just touch upon a few points.
First of all, let me welcome the member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) to this Legislature. I know she has a--the word I am looking for is a very close or had a close relationship with the Department of Energy and Mines, having been an employee of our department. She and I have had a chance to discuss that, and I know she is probably very cognizant of many of the issues and operations of the branch during her time with the department.
I would just like to touch on a couple of points that I know members of the committee may be most interested in and that, of course, in this department is our need to improve exploration in the province. There is obviously a long lead time between beginning to look for mineral deposits, discovering them, proving them and getting to the point where they are actually developed as an active mine employing people and generating wealth, which we as a province obviously tax and benefit from.
Over the last number of decades we have not had the kind of exploration, particularly in parts of this province that are difficult to access--I am thinking of the northeast. One of the challenges of this department over the last few years and which I take on as new minister will be to put in place the type of initiative that will lead to that exploration, particularly in those target areas.
So I say in my opening remarks that that is a major objective of this department over the next few years. It obviously involves a host of things being done, one of which is giving some certainty to land tenure which involves the settling of land claims issues, or at least of limiting them to the areas where land claim settlements or land for those settlements will be found. So that certainly is a priority that we will be taking on.
I am also very pleased to speak a little bit about our mines and minerals conference which we host annually. My predecessor, Mr. Orchard, was the host of last year's. This has become a very exciting event in Canadian mining and attracts a large number of delegates from across Canada, I think more than 550 last year for the mining, mineral and petroleum portions of that conference.
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I am also pleased to indicate that because of some of the policies that my predecessors were able to put in place in our incentive programs--and some of them have difficulties which we are working on correcting--the indication that we are getting by many in the industry is that Manitoba is becoming the place to be in the mining field in Canada. Certainly with an industry that today generates approximately $1 billion in revenue as an industry, it is one of the more significant sources of income to us as Manitobans, and an industry that we must continually look for new opportunities and continue to see play a significant role in our province.
I am also pleased to announce that this year on the petroleum side, we had one of our best year's ever in the petroleum lease process this spring. We had some very, very good results, and I think they are reflective of some new technology and opportunities that exist because of horizontal drilling and some other activity that is taking place in our neighbouring province of Saskatchewan and south of us in the United States, which are all part of the Williston Basin. We are looking, as a department, at some significant opportunities in this area to again increase the activity, the expenditure and ultimately the economic activity of the petroleum sector in this province.
Mr. Chair, those are two points that I wanted to touch upon, and, as I have indicated, I wanted to make a very brief statement. I look forward to the questions and the discussions that we will get into in the course of these Estimates.
Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: I thank the Minister of Energy and Mines for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk), have opening remarks?
Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Yes, I do. First of all, I would like to thank the minister for his kind remarks and I do look forward to actually learning about the department. In a lot of different areas I am quite familiar with part of the department, and geology is a very complicated field and so we are specialized in various fields. So I too will be learning as the new critic in this portfolio, and I look forward to that.
First of all, I would like to say to yourself, how having worked in the department for many years that I know you have a very capable staff, very dedicated and with a great deal of expertise. Many of the people in your department I know are out in the field doing that exploration you were talking about, working in very difficult environments, in conditions that most Manitobans do not realize that our civil servants are out there doing what they can to stimulate our economy and provide, hopefully, more employment for Manitobans and bring in more revenue.
Clearly, in this department, I know that the civil servants we have go beyond what we would expect, and it is always seems to me that we do not recognize the economic value of our team. In fact if we recognized the amount of exploration work and put in claims where those geologists found or discovered new deposits, mineral wealth in the hard-rock sector, in the soft-rock sector, in the aggregate sector and in the energy industry, we would then have a better idea of how valuable those staff are, so I just wanted to put it on record that you are fortunate to be working with a group of people so dedicated.
I do want to just mention that I am disappointed that the Manitoba Mineral Resources has been sold by the government, I understand, or is in the process. It was established in 1971 by our government, by the NDP, and did bring in a profit for Manitobans over the years; $2.3 million in 1992. Fundamentally, I guess this is where our political philosophy differs.
I do believe there is a role for the public sector to be involved in this type of initiative and we did see this corporation bringing in good for Manitobans, so I am disappointed to see Manitoba Mineral Resources no longer being the prominent role that it did have.
In addition to that, over the past numerous years we have been involved in mineral agreements with the federal government. We have been successful in negotiating two five-year agreements, I believe, and, out of that, I am sure, have seen many developments that perhaps would not have been done in other circumstances. It is very disappointing for myself and our side of the House that the federal government has made an announcement in February of this year that they are no longer interested in that agreement. It is my hope that the minister will continue to pursue that avenue and indicate to the federal Liberals, which seem to be fairly shortsighted in their vision, that that type of investment is indeed a benefit to Manitoba and a benefit to Canada.
In terms of the department itself, the goal and the mission of the department is to protect Manitoba's nonrenewable mineral resources under the principles of sustainable development, and we have seen that focused through the new Mines Act. That is, I think, a very positive step. We do not, I believe, as Manitobans wish to see high grading, the depletion of our reserves in a haphazard manner. We need to see a managed control of the resources that we have in Manitoba so that we can see a stable economic future.
I think that one of the other major incentives is the rehab program for abandoned mine sites, pits and quarries that have occurred. I will be looking forward to asking the minister about some of the progress that we are seeing there. Given over 4,000 pits and quarries that are depleted, we have a long way to go in terms of that program. We all know in our communities in rural Manitoba that they are truly an eyesore and sometimes dangerous as people use them for recreational activity or swimming holes and whatnot, and it is better to have them rehabilitated.
There have been many new mining operations, as well, which have been initiated. As we see commodity prices go up, we are very excited, as there is more revenue for the government and that is very much needed at this time to be directed in other sources. Hopefully, we will see the increase of jobs. We see northern development. That is all very positive, so this is very exciting times for Energy and Mines, for the mining industry in particular.
Mining in Manitoba is the second leading primary resource sector after agriculture so we are aware how important it is, and we produce over a billion dollars worth of mineral product annually. It is unfortunate, however, that most of that mineral product leaves Manitoba with minimal processing, and whatever we can do to develop secondary and tertiary processing in Manitoba is, of course, a benefit to our economy and to Manitobans as they create even further jobs.
Mining, as the minister says, employs a great number of people and that is very important to many communities. Having worked in many northern communities, mining is basically the staple. Housing values drop, people move, economic security is always a concern as mining towns go through cyclical periods of boom and bust. It is very hard on families and people working up north or wherever the mine site is.
Employment and family is a priority to myself and, of course, to our party and we would like to see employment numbers actually rise. Given the present situation in mining with the technology that we are seeing, and I understand that the economy is basically driving this, we are seeing more and more technology doing the actual mining and less jobs in that field. But I am hopeful with projects such as the potash mines, the diamond exploration, the further base metal showings, the Cross Lake project, all of this as well as the gold prices make it an optimistic time for the mining sector.
I am going to be asking the minister and the department some questions about the environmental impact of mining. Although we have seen some major investment in the Flin Flon area, for example, sulphur dioxide emissions are still exceeding acceptable levels. That is a concern of mine; I am sure it is also a concern of the minister. I will be looking forward to learning about what we have in store for Flin Flon and how we are going to address the acidification of the lakes in that area and the air quality.
Overall, Energy and Mines as a department has remained fairly stable. I would like to suggest that investment in this department actually is a very wise investment. It would be our hope that we would see some increase in the amount of exploration, the amount of work done by Energy and Mines. The return on the dollar, I am sure, is doubled or tripled as we invest in this department and they bring back showings and other indications of mineral potentials. When the minister says that one of the goals is to increase exploration, I do look forward to, either in these Estimates or in the discussion, seeing where the line item is for additional personnel or additional geologists out there to do that exploration.
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I do not at this time see new programs, and I will be inquiring from the department as to what new initiatives are underway. I do know that the Mineral Development Agreement is winding down, but I would like to get sort of a synopsis of how the department feels, whether it was successful and to what level.
In terms of energy, the Conawapa project was cancelled over two years ago. We see no hints of any other hydro sales in the short term. There are 500 Hydro workers being cut while Hydro makes over $100 million dollars a year from limestone sales to the U.S. Hydro had a net profit in '94 of over $69 million. Clearly our resources, having an abundant supply of hydro, has been a benefit to Manitobans. As we reap some of the lowest hydro rates in Canada and we have some of the largest supplies, we look forward to more marketing. I will be asking the minister what outreach we are doing in terms of sales, of energy supplies, and what the future plans are.
In addition to the Energy Branch, and this is where I am going to be doing a great deal of learning, I am interested in the mission of the branch taking a leadership role in energy planning and policy development and in its role in promoting and encouraging energy industries to locate in Manitoba.
The energy sector is a very important one and the department overall since my time is a much leaner situation than it was when I was there, so I will be asking the minister what programs are available, what type of resources are available and ask him about the future of that branch.
In terms of the energy also, I am going to be asking questions of alternative energy sources and, in particular, the natural gas program and the oil industry--as the minister has said, it is one of the best this year--and what work we are doing in terms of the ethanol industry which has really been growing in Ontario particularly.
In terms of just a few other things, in terms of the North which I am somewhat familiar with, it seems somewhat of an irony when you look at communities that are close to our large hydro generating stations that do not have access to power. Recently seven reserves on the northeast side of Manitoba approached the federal government, actually in 1993, to have power available to those communities. A switch to hydro would actually save 100 percent to 200 percent less in their utility bills a month. Their power source is limited since it is generated from propane, so then a family, a person who is doing perhaps the cooking cannot have the washer going on.
The fact is that in a lot of those communities families are carrying water from the lakes, so what we are talking about is Third World conditions sometimes within sight of a hydro station. It is I think truly something that we need to address. I know that the northeast is not that close to Limestone and I will be interested in the situation at Cross Lake. But for northern reserves, I think that they deserve and must have the same equal treatment as we in the south. We do not worry whether we are able to cook and do laundry and whatever we consider basic and in the North they do. We take the resources from the North and we also must give back so that there is a fairness in how we handle Manitoba's economy and our resources.
That concludes my statements, Mr. Chairman, and I look forward to going through the Estimates today and learning more about the Department of Energy and Mines. Thank you.
Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: We thank the critic of the official opposition.
Under Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of the department and, accordingly, we shall defer consideration of this item and now proceed with consideration of the line. Before we do that we would invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask the minister to introduce his staff that will be present.
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, first of all, I would like to introduce an individual who is not here today. That is Mr. Michael Fine, who is the new Deputy Minister of Energy and Mines and of Northern Affairs. Mr. Fine joined our department about three months ago. He comes from the Department of External Affairs in Ottawa where he was a senior trade negotiator involved in trade negotiations at a very senior level about the world. He was recruited by us because of the direction in the mining department of wanting to take the initiative of marketing Manitoba in the mining world and the expertise that he brings ultimately from the international picture. He is also a very fine administrator. Mr. Fine, regrettably, is not here today. He is in Ottawa. I offer my apologies to members of the committee.
I have with me Mr. Garry Barnes, who is the director of our Administrative Services. Mr. Barnes is today acting deputy minister, and he also served for several months, I understand, as acting deputy minister of the department over the course of the last year until Mr. Fine's appointment, so he is very familiar with the workings of the Department of Energy and Mines.
I also have Mr. Craig Halwachs, who is the manager of Financial Services; Ms. JoAnne Reinsch, who is the manager of Personnel Services; Mr. Lyle Skinner, who is the acting director of the Marketing Branch; Mr. Barry Hadfield, who is the chief mining engineer, and he is here today in place of Mr. Art Ball, our director of Mines, who also could not be here today; Mr. John Fox, our chief petroleum engineer, joins us, as well as Mr. Dave McRitchie, director of our Geological Services Branch.
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Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: I thank the honourable minister for that. We will now proceed to line (1) Administration and Finance (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 50 of the main Estimates book.
Before we move on into the Estimates, the normal process is that we do go line by line in terms of the Estimates, is it the will of the committee that we proceed on that basis, or does the committee wish to take a different approach?
Ms. Mihychuk: Yes, please.
Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: Agreed and so ordered. Line by line.
Ms. Mihychuk: We are in, let me see--okay. Are we talking about the Minister's Salary being moved to--[interjection] Yes, I agree. Now it would be the time to ask some questions about the deputy minister--would that be correct?
Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: We are on Executive Support, line 1.(b).
Ms. Mihychuk: It is disappointing that the deputy minister is not here. In fact, I have not had the opportunity to meet Mr. Fine, and I looked forward to that. Can the minister share with us the experience that Mr. Fine has in terms of the mining industry specifically or in the energy sector?
Mr. Praznik: I cannot answer that specifically as to his background in either sector. I would imagine it somewhat limited. His experience is that of a senior public servant, as administrator, and also with expertise in the area of dealing in the international community in trade negotiations with a host of countries and companies.
By way of background, what I can tell you, I guess, I quote from his biography that: prior to joining the Manitoba government he was a member of Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada, where he was responsible for managing and negotiating Canada's textile and clothing trade policy relationship with supplier countries. He previously held positions as director of personnel; deputy director, Technology, of Export Canada. He was a consul and trade commissioner for Canada in Orlando, Florida. He was first secretary, commercial, at the Canadian Embassy in Washington, D.C. and vice-consul and trade commissioner at the Canadian Consulate General in Sidney, Australia.
I think as the member will appreciate what Mr. Fine brings to us in Manitoba--and again we start with the premise, and I think an accurate one, that mining is very much an international industry, that if one is going to be trying to see this industry develop and grow, it is important that we are able to make a thrust with companies and players in the industry who operate in a very international world. It was felt by my predecessor and the Premier that it was very important to have somebody who was comfortable in this field, who had experience in this field and was a competent administrator, and Mr. Fine certainly meets those requirements. I have had the opportunity to work with him over the last number of weeks as his minister, and I find him to be an excellent individual. I am very, very honoured to have him as part of our team. I am very excited by that.
Ms. Mihychuk: The deputy minister is the hands-on person with the department in most cases. Given the, I suppose, limited experience that Mr. Fine has in terms of Energy and Mines specifically, can the minister share with us, who are your main advisers in terms of this sector?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, I can tell you that the senior directors and senior staff--as the member well knows, the Department of Energy and Mines employs some excellent individuals who come with a wealth of experience in their particular fields, in geology, in petroleum, in the whole array of work that is done in the department. I have had the opportunity to meet my new staff, as has my deputy, and as she well knows, I think we can ensure that we have very excellent people with a very solid background and understanding of the technical aspects of the industry and of the work that has to be done by the department.
I also share with the member that my special assistant, Mr. Bill Hood, is a geological engineer by trade, was a geologist with TANCO mines in Lac du Bonnet for a period of time, had an independent geological consulting service which he operated until he came to work with me a couple of years ago as an assistant and is very cognizant as well with the industry, so I must share with the member that I feel very comfortable to date as the Minister of Energy and Mines with the kind of technical expertise and experience in the mining industry that exists in the Department of Energy and Mines today. I am very proud of what I have seen so far in the group of people we have put together in this department.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister share, have we in the past had deputy ministers without experience directly in Energy and Mines, say in the last 10, 20 years?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, I cannot answer that. I have only been Minister of Energy and Mines for a brief period of time, and I must admit I have not paid that much attention to who has been the deputy minister. I can tell the member that when I was Minister of Labour my deputy minister, Roberta Ellis-Grunfeld, who was an excellent deputy minister, did not have experience in the labour community.
I think what one has to appreciate with deputy ministers is deputy ministers are chief administrators. The kind of experience that one needs to be an administrator is often very different from the experience that one would have as a geologist. I think if one looks at management generally throughout government, throughout large institutions, et cetera, it is very valuable to have a good administrator as your chief administrator. That is not to say that a geologist cannot become an administrator, et cetera, but the role of a deputy minister is to be the chief administrator of a department.
The technical expertise that comes in any particular area, whether it be in labour relations if one is Deputy Minister of Labour, whether it be in personnel services if one is Deputy Minister of the Civil Service, whether it be in special soils and crops if you are a Deputy Minister of Agriculture, or in geology if you are the Deputy Minister of Energy and Mines, should be housed and exist in the department and be available to a deputy and to a minister.
Most of us who come to this place as politicians are not experts in the field where we are asked to serve as a minister. What is critical with deputies is they be very good administrators. Mr. Fine has that experience as an administrator, and he also has an added expertise in international marketing which we feel is very critical to the kind of work that we want to do.
I should also point out to the member for St. James that when I arrived at this place, and my staff jogged my memory, but when I arrived in this place in 1988, the deputy minister who was appointed by her party in power, Mr. Charles Kang, had absolutely no experience in mining nor in energy. So I think it has been a long-standing tradition in government that deputy ministers, wherever they are, are appointed for their administrative experience and competence, and that is why from time to time deputy ministers are moved around from department to department. The technical expertise that is needed is housed in departments and that has always been a very important part of the British parliamentary system.
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Ms. Mihychuk: I would just like to say the sector of energy and mines, as I said earlier, is extremely complex. Having gone through some education myself I feel that I am on a major learning curve here, and I would expect that the minister too has a great deal to learn in terms of the energy and mines, particularly, I would say, the mines sector, and so to have that type of expertise is indeed valuable.
It would seem to me, it is my understanding, that you had other, say, opportunities when you were reviewing the position. I am cognizant that the only factor here was not administrative skills because you do indeed have a selection within your department that are excellent administrators. So I would take from the statement that the deputy minister was indeed--that the focus was on administrative but, more importantly perhaps, the trade sector that the minister opened with, talking about the deputy minister.
I would just like the minister, if he could, to perhaps indicate the people that are in the Executive Support section. Here we see seven individuals. Could the minister outline who they are?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, my staff are giving me the exact list so that I provide the member with accurate information. I just make the point that in most government departments, and I use Health as an example, by and large, their job is not to operate on patients, their job is to administer a health care system. In the Department of Energy and Mines, our job is not to go out and find mines, develop them, mine the ore, process the ore and do the work of mining, our job is to regulate, to gather certain geological information and to administer policies which encourage mining.
That is why one hires an administrator as a deputy minister, not a miner.
Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The committee has been called to the Chamber for an important formal vote. The committee will recess.
The committee recessed at 12:12 p.m.
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After Recess
The committee resumed at 12:36 p.m.
Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply for Energy and Mines please come to order.
When the committee last met, we were considering the Estimates on line 23.1, 1. Administration and Finance (b) Executive Support.
Ms. Mihychuk: Mr. Chairman, I see that we are missing the staff support, and perhaps, with the minister's agreement, we should recess for five minutes or--[interjection] You will take the questions? Okay.
I have a question in terms of the deputy minister--just wrapping up a few questions. Oh, we were going to go for the names, were we not? I am sorry, and the minister was responding, if I remember correctly.
Mr. Praznik: Yes, the seven positions that are referenced are: Mr. Bill Hood, who is my special assistant--there is another staff position of executive assistant that is currently shared on a split basis between two individuals who, I expect, will be leaving my employ during the course of the summer and will be replaced by another individual who is currently working for me in the constituency. The appointment secretary or the ministerial secretary is Mrs. Velma Davis. There is a secretary as well, Ms. Pat Chapko, and I do have to check on that because, having Northern Affairs, I have three secretaries in my office. One, I believe, is assigned to Energy and Mines, one to Northern Affairs with the paper flow there. Velma Davis is the ministerial secretary. The deputy minister, Mr. Fine, also has two secretaries who work in the Executive Support area.
Ms. Mihychuk: Well, I am sorry that I am still somewhat confused. Perhaps clarification could be made if we actually went down through the section. Now, the managerial would be your deputy minister. Is that correct?
Mr. Praznik: Yes, Mr. Chair. Because I have two ministries, two departments, there are administrative office allotments between the two, and if the member is willing, when the financial people who work these out between the two departments and their allotments return, I can provide you an exact answer.
Perhaps we can move on to another area.
Ms. Mihychuk: That leads into my second question. Given that the deputy minister is also Deputy Minister for Northern Affairs, are there any plans, for example, to merge the two departments?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, no, there are not. I was Minister of Labour and then also was given responsibility as Minister of Northern Affairs, and I shared the same deputy. What we in fact did was, where we had the abilities between the two departments to find some savings in sharing administrative costs and functions between departments, we did. With my appointment as Minister of Energy and Mines and relinquishing the Ministry of Labour, we unencumbered any of those relationships. Again, we will build practical ones between the two departments, but they are certainly not being merged in a formal way or an informal way, just practical level.
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Ms. Mihychuk: Is the minister aware, or the department staff, of a situation where Energy and Mines has not had actually a full-time deputy minister. What we learn now is that the deputy minister is half-time Energy and Mines and half-time Northern Affairs. This seems to me to be fairly unusual. Can the minister enlighten me as to whether this has happened in Energy and Mines before?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, I cannot go back all over the years of history. I know at one time the Minister of Energy and Mines was also with what is now the Department of Natural Resources and had one deputy.
It is not unusual in government, over the years, where ministers have had two departments and deputies have had two departments to manage. Again, much of the work as an administrator is very much the same. I imagine whether one can handle the issues or not depends on how many issues are there at any given particular time with what you have to deal with and the complexity of them.
Both Northern Affairs and Energy and Mines, by comparison to many departments in government, are relatively small departments. Many of the issues which they have to deal with over the next while are very much intertwined. Once before in the history of this government both departments were under the Honourable Jim Downey and Mr. David Tomasson, as deputy minister, and they worked very well.
I just share with her one point that illustrates the relationship. Because the bulk of mining exploration is in northern Manitoba, for example, one critical factor in mining exploration is certainty of land tenure, and the settlement of land claims issues, Northern Flood Agreement, is absolutely critical to being able to pursue further mining exploration. Also in finding land that is available and identifying land that is available for Treaty Land Entitlement, et cetera, the ability to know what other interests exist there becomes important.
So there are a lot of relationships between the departments that make a lot of sense to be together as policy develops in the next while. Having Manitoba Hydro, also part of my responsibilities, so intimately involved in northern development and Northern Flood Agreements makes it a lot easier as a minister to bring the parties together to be able to make the kind of decisions you need to advance those issues.
Ms. Mihychuk: Yes, there are links between Northern Affairs and Energy and Mines, but I would argue that there are probably stronger links between Energy and Mines and Natural Resources and, perhaps, the Department of Environment.
These decisions about executive support are made at the senior level by the minister, and I just wish to put on the record my concern that, given what I hope to be a very exciting time in the mining sector and a very challenging time in the energy sector, it is perhaps shortsighted to look at one deputy minister versus half. I do look forward, now that the administration is back, for a further explanation. Is it then accurate that the managerial component, under line 23.1(b) is the deputy minister? So the deputy minister's salary is incurred in the Energy and Mines budget?
Mr. Praznik: First of all, let me just point out to the members and new member that the appointment of ministers and of deputy ministers has always been, and remains under our British parliamentary system, the prerogative of the Premier of the province. Premiers, in structuring their cabinet, have the prerogative and make decisions on the amalgamation of ministries or the creation of ministries, or assignment of departments and portfolios, based on a host of objectives, in both the short and long term.
The Premier of Manitoba, when he gave me my mandate as minister, indicated to me very clearly that we have a major mines program that we want to take on, and, obviously, that the settlement of land claims issues is very important, and northern flood with Hydro. Amalgamation at this particular time of having these three areas under one minister certainly makes eminent good sense, given the issues that are facing us as a government in this area in the next few years.
I have absolute confidence in my deputy and staff that they will be able to rise to the occasion. I should also point out to the member that the Assistant Deputy Minister of Northern Affairs, Mr. Oliver Boulette, is a very senior civil servant, based out of the North, the senior provincial civil service in northern Manitoba, and as a practical matter he handles much of the day-to-day operation of the Department of Northern Affairs.
The point I make with respect to the assignments, as I would hope the member may appreciate--I am sure she appreciates at this time that this Estimates book, which was prepared for the budget that was passed by the Legislature prior to the general election, had the Energy and Mines portfolio under one minister who had no other portfolio. We go forward with these Estimates as part of that budget, and so for this current year the salary of the deputy minister will be in this department, as are the two staff positions.
Next year, in the Estimates book, there will be a proper split made between the two departments, as we did in Labour. So, given the cabinet shuffle took place after the preparation of these documents and of this financial structure, we have had to kind of unencumber Northern Affairs and Labour, and there will be some reassignments of money, I am sure, by Treasury Board to ensure that there are actually additional dollars to the system. Otherwise, the Minister of Labour may find that they only have half a salary for a deputy, while Northern Affairs has half a salary, obviously with no deputy. These adjustments will be made accordingly.
Ms. Mihychuk: That is helpful, but it still does not clarify who the minister has in terms of executive support. Given this change, can you provide me with information as to your support staff here that is responsible for Energy and Mines?
Mr. Praznik: Within the minister and deputy minister support staff, there is, as I have said, Mr. Bill Hood, who is my special assistant. I have an executive assistant position, which is currently divided between two part-time employees who are in the process of departing from my service, and I will then be replacing those two part-timers who are sharing a salary, in essence, with one individual and that person has not yet been appointed. She is currently working for me in my constituency under the constituency allowance rules. I hope to have that change made by the end of the summer.
Mrs. Velma Davis is my ministerial secretary. Mrs. Pat Chapko is also a secretary. This is where I think there was some confusion whether Mrs. Chapko was on Energy and Mines or Northern Affairs, on that support. There is also the deputy minister, Mr. Fine, who has two secretaries, Lina Desjarlais and Sonja Starr. In addition to this, in the ministerial office is a further secretary, who, I gather, is on the payroll of the Department of Northern Affairs, Mrs. Lori Evans (phonetic).
If I did not have two departments, I would only have two secretaries, but with two departments I have a ministerial one for each of the departments.
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Ms. Mihychuk: Do I understand correctly the two secretaries that the deputy minister has are both for Energy and Mines, or is one for Northern Affairs and the other for Energy and Mines? Who is responsible for their salaries, Energy and Mines or Northern Affairs?
Mr. Praznik: As we sort out these relationships between Northern Affairs and Energy and Mines, the deputy minister had one secretary. I believe normally there is an allotment for two, one which he did not fill. After also having added responsibility for Northern Affairs, it was felt, given the paper flow with that department, that he required a second secretary in his office. This is when Ms. Sonja Starr was hired.
I gather now the departments have sorted out that given where the workload is coming from, this position will be accounted for in the Department of Northern Affairs. So in terms of the seven to the department the member refers to, there may be one that is vacant as we sort this out. I ask for the indulgence of members of the committee simply because both my staff and both departments have had to do a lot of shuffling to ensure that there is a fair allotment of staff between the two departments' budgets.
Ms. Mihychuk: I take the assurance of the minister that this department in fact is not perhaps covering more than its share of executive support and that will be worked out in the future. I understand that amalgamating has created some difficulties. I am prepared to move on off of this item.
Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: Item 23, 1.(b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $341,800--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $75,300--pass.
Item 1.(c) Financial and Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits.
Ms. Mihychuk: In this sector, I have a couple of questions, and I am going to ask a series of questions on affirmative action. The Department of Energy and Mines over the years has tried various ways of including target group members in employment, both term, permanent and in summer service. Can the minister share with me the plans and progress over the past few years, and what our targets are in terms of affirmative action in the department?
Mr. Praznik: As I am sure the member for St. James will appreciate, over the last number of years within government we have--and I say this as a former Civil Service minister--reduced the number of positions in government by about 2,100. In the process of doing that we have actually laid off very few people, only several hundred. We have done that by way of vacancy management, by moving people whose jobs or positions may disappear in a budget process into other positions that remain that were vacant, with a voluntary incentive program, et cetera.
Why I raise that is it has meant that we have not done a great deal of hiring across government. The opportunities to hire people under an affirmative action program have not been there, to be blunt, over the last few years. Our first priority has been to keep working those people who have been employed with us and whose positions may have disappeared during these budget exercises. To that end we have been extremely successful, probably more than most any other government in Canada.
Certainly, when you compare us to the federal government, a far, far greater success in maintaining employment, maintaining some jobs for our employees as opposed to letting them go. So having said that, I think our affirmative action numbers have not been where many would expect them to be. I think there is a very valid reason for that, you cannot reach them if you are not hiring people.
In the past year, representation in all four designated groups has remained relatively unchanged. In the case of women, approximately 44 percent in 1994 and today it is 44.81 percent, 1995.
In the category of disabled, we have had a slight decrease from 3.33 percent to 3.25 percent, and that may be reflective just in the change of the staff of the number of staff, as opposed to the loss of any individual.
The visible minority category, we have gone from 2.67 percent to 2.6 percent, and again, I would suggest that is because the total staff has declined as opposed to staff changing or leaving.
On the aboriginal side, a slight increase from 3.3 percent to 3.9 percent, and I would suspect that is because we probably hired one individual. So affirmative action is still there in our hiring, but given the fact that there have not been a lot of opportunities for hiring, these numbers are not going to change significantly.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister share with me the number of females that are in the professional, managerial sector? Many of the females that are within the department are actually in the clerical component, if that is still the case. In fact, when you look at the hierarchy of the department, the percentage of women that are in the senior managerial or in the professional component actually are quite few. So perhaps you can share those numbers with me as well.
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, I do not for a moment pretend to understand all the ways these records are kept. I guess, whenever you are classifying people in positions and affirmative action categories, they are never entirely an easy thing to do. What I share with the member for St. James, what I have here is under our managerial SYs which would include everything from the minister to senior officers. We have 23 in total, of whom three are in the category of affirmative action, one being female, one visible minority and one disabled.
On the professional and technical SYs where we have 87.05, and I am never quite sure why we have .05 but obviously that is the amalgamation of part-times, et cetera, we have a total of 27 in the category of which 20 are female.
On the administrative support SYs where we have a large number of what are called administrative officers, so they are not secretaries per se, they have additional duties, et cetera, we have 48 on that side, of which eight are in the category of affirmative action of which three are female.
So the member can appreciate the bulk of the women working in the department would be in the professional and technical staff year positions and in the administrative support. Certainly the largest number would be in the professional and technical category.
Ms. Mihychuk: I think the minister would agree that we have a long way to go to have gender parity or reaching our targets in terms of a fair representation of peoples of Manitoba in the department, and I concur that it is very difficult when you are looking at downsizing and limiting the amount of movement there is in the departments.
I would ask the minister whether we have his full support in terms of the affirmative action program and ask that he perhaps share with us his vision for affirmative action.
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Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, as Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission, it was my responsibility to oversee that particular program over a number of years. Obviously, we always have to be cognizant of the importance of having people who are qualified for positions or within our own staff building the qualifications to give people the opportunity for advancement, et cetera. One has to be cognizant of those things.
My greatest frustration as a minister responsible for that area was the attitude of the Manitoba Government Employees' Union which I know her party has some relationships with. I must admit in many discussions we had at joint council the MGEU position was always that, yes, they supported affirmative action but only at entry level positions. Their position as the major representative of our employees was that they did not want any outside hiring for positions and they were not ever prepared to accept an affirmative action model beyond the entrance level.
They certainly did not want their current members who have employment to be denied opportunities to change jobs or seek advancement within the civil service because of the operation of an affirmative action program. So as a new member to this House, I would very much appreciate if perhaps in the discussion she may have with Mr. Olfert and his executive, which I know there is a relationship between her party and that particular organization, her Leader having been a former president of that organization, then perhaps the concern which I know she sincerely brings to this table today she might take or forward to that organization.
Although we may have ultimate responsibility here, it is somewhat politically ironical to on one hand be asked in the House about affirmative action, very legitimately about that, and on the other, at the bargaining table or in joint council be criticized by another group from the employees union about that issue. We always tried to balance that, of course, and did, but probably the greatest stumbling block is the attitude or position of the MGEU.
Ms. Mihychuk: Well, the issue of affirmative action is a sensitive one. As we look at downsizing and people's opportunities to keep their jobs, it is of course very sensitive. However, even in a department that has a stable population, certain positions come open. At that time, or in cases where--well, primarily in those cases where an opening comes open, training can be given to target group members. Opportunities can be given to encourage that type of movement, and those types of initiatives are benefited by the full co-operation of the senior management and the minister.
That is the assurance that I am asking from the minister. It is true there are other barriers but, where possible, movement can be made. In a field which is traditionally a male-dominated field, a male field, we would like to see movement I think, and the minister would concur. That was what I was trying to ask from him, for his full endorsement.
I have a specific question now. In terms of the director of Mines position, which recently opened, was an affirmative action statement included on the advertisement? Were we able to receive any applicants in terms of that position, which is considered a fairly senior managerial position? Were there any target group members applying for that position and, more specifically, were any women applicants available in that selection?
Mr. Praznik: First of all, as a comment on the previous exchange that the member and I have had, I would like to point out that in terms of educational assistance to departmental employees, which I am sure the member will agree is important in building up the kind of skill set and knowledge base and understanding of issues in the department that are important to advance people within it, that the department continues to financially assist those employees wishing to further their education through college or university courses. In '94-95, three female staff members were provided ongoing financial assistance in this regard.
It should also be noted that during the same period, 45 percent of the department's designated group members either attended seminars or workshops sponsored by the government or outside agencies or participated in formal university college courses. So the department is very encouraging of that, and I certainly am for all people in our department, because I like to have a workforce that is up to date and thriving and being on the leading edge of what is happening.
With respect to the director of the Marketing branch of the department, the deputy and I had a chance to discuss this particular position in great detail after my appointment. I hope the member will indulge me in the explanation because it obviously is a key management position within the department. The expectations that we share for the Marketing branch and the kind of skill set that we are looking for in this position, that we feel we need, is a very, very unique one.
I know in the first round of entrants that we received--which had all of the affirmative action points made, and there were people from those categories who applied--it was felt by the deputy, who had discussions with me, that we really were not garnering the kind of skill set we needed here in the marketing area. That is a very unique skill set. One reason, quite frankly, may be that this position does not pay the kind of dollars for this very unique skill set.
We were not looking for sales people. We were looking for marketers, and there is a difference. Consequently, this position has been advertised farther afield.
I must compliment the acting director now, Mr. Lyle Skinner, who is doing an excellent job in that position in the administration. The deputy and I have an agreement on a different kind of skill set that we are needing today than that branch has particularly had, and if we are not able to attract someone we may have to look at how we structure that and maybe separate an administrative position from the kind of skills and have to look elsewhere either by contract or what have you to obtain those skills. So this position is far from being settled as to where we go with it.
It would not be a fair assessment to look at this particular position as one where we would use it for affirmative action. The skill set we are looking for is just so unique. I would be most pleased if my deputy could find one or two individuals anywhere in Canada who would have what in fact we are looking for. We may have to look at separating the function we think we need for our new programming from that particular branch and the administrative function. I just might say today, because Mr. Lyle Skinner who has been in the department for many years has been acting in this branch, the administrative work there has been excellent, and he has done an excellent job in that area. The skills that we want we may not find with an administrator, so we may have to separate that somehow, and we have not come to grips in our own minds yet with how we want to deal with this.
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By the way, this position was advertised some time ago and put on hold again because the marketing function just did not come together. So again we may have to look at this function and separate some of the aspects of it and leave the administration to good administrators and find another way to get that marketing skill set that we need for our new program. So it is somewhat in the air yet.
Ms. Mihychuk: Would the minister be willing to articulate those unique skill sets that he is saying that are difficult to fill, and will he assure us that once those are articulated that indeed the position be posted and perhaps, although the minister feels it is unlikely, across Canada we can find what I hope would be a target group member, or at least open it up for competition, that could fill that position? So my question is, what is that unique skill set that the minister talks about?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, my deputy minister, who is senior administrator of the department, posted this position. I think the description that we were looking for in rather broad-based terms was posted, and I know he had briefed me on the first round of applicants that we had, I think some hundred and something. The position was initially advertised locally in Manitoba and I think also in The Northern Miner, which is the main mining magazine. In his report to me, and obviously I am not privy to all the details of the applicants who applied, but his comment to me at the time was we had a lot of people with sales experience in a host of different products.
As one can appreciate, if you are building a program to attract exploration into the province, for example, you have to have someone who is very able to identify the target people--and the target group may only be some 200 companies in the country--have enough experience in that particular area or skills in doing a similar kind of marketing to be able to target that group, develop a strategy how as to best reach that group in a meaningful way, and to then plug in to make the introductions, to get them interested, to be able to follow up on that and to ultimately look after them in terms of working through their issues if you are able to attract them here to look at Manitoba. That skill set may not necessarily be consistent with an individual who has strong managerial skills for a branch which has other functions.
So I say to the member, we are still--this is the second, third time we have actually gone out now. This second time, I think, was a year or so ago under Mr. Orchard, and then that was cancelled. We went out again recently; it was when I assumed the ministry. We have now gone out again, and I think we are advertising in The Globe and Mail and nationally. If again we are not able to find an individual who the deputy and the hiring committee is comfortable has that marketing experience--and we have some concerns that we may be looking for two very different things in one person. That makes it rare, a good manager of a government department versus someone who is a very good target marketer is a hard package of skills to particularly articulate. That might be a reason why we are having difficulty in our information.
So we are struggling with this, but I can assure the member that should we go out with it again, as we are doing now, we will have a wide search and a fair articulation of those skills. That may be our problem why we are not catching the right person in our net now. We are working at this steadily, and I hope the right individual is found for this position. One problem may be the salary range as well. That, we are trying to sort out as we go through it.
Ms. Mihychuk: My original question actually dealt with the position of the director of mines, but it is interesting that we were provided the information on the position of the marketing. A couple of years ago, you had the opportunity to fill that, and it does not happen very often actually so I am glad that you shared the information on marketing. But the Department of Mines, a senior position became open. Can the department share what was the response with that position? Did we have target group members apply for that, and were the criteria used? Can the department tell us if any of those applicants actually met the qualifications required to fill that position?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, I cannot comment from personal knowledge or involvement in that issue, as I was not minister at the time. I am advised that when that position became open, Mr. Art Ball assumed the position as acting director. There was a competition, and an individual who was in the target category assumed that position. I am advised that during the course of the probationary period, it did not work out. I do not know if it was a mutual parting, or otherwise, but it did not work out. The position was again vacated. Mr. Art Ball assumed the acting position again and in a subsequent competition, I believe was the successful--no, there was no competition. He was appointed to that position.
I am not going to comment further on the detail, as I do not think it is fair to the individual who was involved. From time to time, people get positions. They may be mutually unacceptable, expectation levels being different for both. Skill sets may not be matching and that should not be a reflection on anyone involved, but the decision, I do not have personal knowledge of. I am only repeating here the history of that particular hiring.
Ms. Mihychuk: I agree. I do not wish to make any individual uncomfortable, and I am not questioning the capability of the director of mines or any of the staff.
My issue would be that this position was made by appointment. It was an opportunity to look at perhaps providing an opportunity at that level. When appointments are made you step out of the process which allows affirmative action, I think, to work. That is disappointing. So it is not in regard to the capability or the selection, it is in regards to the selection process.
Mr. Praznik: As I am sure the member appreciates, we in government, in hirings, are governed by a set of rules under The Civil Service Act and by collective agreements, obviously not applicable in this particular position, but it is not unusual when one does a competition that out of that competition one may identify two, three, four or five suitable candidates and hire off of that list if the first one does not work out or if another position becomes available a short while thereafter, as opposed to going through the competition again.
One should be cognizant that Mr. Ball was a participant in the first competition, obviously scored very well, and rather than go through the process of another competition, a direct appointment, which is provided for in The Civil Service Act, was of course made. I can tell you Mr. Ball is doing an excellent job.
The member's point, though, that we should always be cognizant of opportunities to advance and give people the opportunities to find significant positions in the Civil Service has to, of course, be recognized and appreciated, and I note her point. I know as Minister of Labour, those are always difficult things. My former deputy, Miss Roberta Ellis-Grunfeld, we had a very good relationship in developing those points and, regrettably in some ways, I lost her as Minister of Labour because she went on to better things in taking over the EITC. So opportunities to advance are important and I recognize the member's point.
Ms. Mihychuk: Just for clarification now, am I to understand that Mr. Art Ball is the director of Mines?
Mr. Praznik: Yes, the vacant position that the member, we assumed, was talking about was the Marketing branch. That is the only senior position we have today that is officially unfilled with a permanent occupant.
Ms. Mihychuk: I am going to move away from the affirmative action sector and under this line, one for information actually, is a category under Other Expenditures called public debt, where $20,000 is provided to cover debt, not quite enough to cover our debt, I believe, but it is a start I suppose.
Mr. Praznik: A good question to a new minister who now knows something about this issue. Under the old CHEC home loan program, the rates applied to recipients of that program were a set rate. The dollars borrowed by the province to fund that program may have been, from time to time, a higher rate. As a consequence there was a difference incurred, and that particular difference is a debt to the department which we are accounting for and, I gather, paying off.
Ms. Mihychuk: Thank you for that information. I just could not seem to understand how that line item was in this department. Is this the section that is responsible for all supplies, including the field program?
Mr. Praznik: No.
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Ms. Mihychuk: I do see under the section, Supplies and Services, there has been a fairly large drop from $106,000 to $82,000. Can we get some information as to what changes there have been there?
Mr. Praznik: I am advised that the difference there is the result in the lesser cost space that we now have at our St. James location. I am sure as a local MLA she will be most pleased that we moved from the downtown area. Her colleague Mr. Santos may not share that with her. The department did move to a one--all of our operations in Winnipeg under one roof, in a much less costly space in beautiful St. James. So there was a savings to the taxpayer and the department, and that is reflected in that requirement in these Estimates.
Ms. Mihychuk: Well, this just gives me an opportunity to promote my riding, and given the imminent closing of the arena, Mr. Chairman, it is a concern to us about the economic viability of that area. So I encourage all staff members to eat in St. James, shop in St. James.
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, as an MLA for Beausejour and not a resident of the city of Winnipeg, she speaking of course of the Winnipeg Arena. In my riding, we have to be cognizant of the Pinawa arena, the Lac du Bonnet arena, the Beausejour arena. I just want that clarification.
Ms. Mihychuk: Yes. For clarification, I am talking about the present Winnipeg Arena that may actually be shut down, I understand, and moved. A brand new arena might be built at The Forks for some $60 million more than the original site in St. James. So that is what I was referring to in terms of potentially--[interjection] Well, I am hoping that we would build the site which would be economically the best scenario, back in the original site.
Although that is a little bit off topic, I will--[interjection] We have got enough in Dauphin. We do not have enough in St. James.
My question is--sticking to this because we really do not have much time and I know that the minister needs to leave soon--in terms of the move to St. James, can you give me some information as to the cost of the move and now, the anticipated savings at the new location.
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, my staff advised me that they do not have that specifically, but we will commit to provide that to the member. I gather we will be going into Estimates again on Monday, so I will have that information for her at that time.
Ms. Mihychuk: Given that the department is going to provide that information, I am going to leave this section.
Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: Item 1. Administration and Finance (c) Financial and Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $624,600--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $150,400--pass.
2. Energy and Mineral Resources (a) Energy Management (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $845,500.
Ms. Mihychuk: Are we at 23.2? [interjection] I would like to ask some questions here.
The minister has another commitment, so--
Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: Is it agreed that committee will now rise? [agreed]
Committee rise.
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