PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
PROPOSED RESOLUTIONS
Res. 11--Aboriginal Justice Inquiry
Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): I move, seconded by the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen), that
WHEREAS the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry found that the justice system has failed Manitoba's aboriginal people on a massive scale; and
WHEREAS the AJI report released on August 29, 1991, is the most comprehensive study of the justice system ever done in this country; and
WHEREAS the AJI report made 306 recommendations and only a tiny fraction of them have been acted upon by the provincial government; and
WHEREAS the provincial government has not released its studies and analysis of the recommendations; and
WHEREAS the provincial government has also not released an action plan for implementing the recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry.
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request the provincial government to release all studies and analysis of each of the recommendations of the AJI report; and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this Assembly request that the provincial government immediately consider commencing work with aboriginal organizations to implement the recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry; and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this Assembly request that the Minister of Justice consider releasing publicly an action plan for the government on implementing the recommendations of the AJI.
Motion presented.
Mr. Robinson: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am honoured to move this resolution. I am asking for all members to support this very, very basic resolution concerning the lives of aboriginal people in this province and the recommendations that the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry made when it commenced its work in 1989 till a tabling of the report in 1991.
The Report of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry contains methods under which system, such as aboriginal or nonaboriginal governments and departments, communities, families and individuals can achieve harmony in their associations with each other.
Each system must learn to coexist both within and for the benefit of one another. What affects one system has implications on the rest. Thus, in order for a co-operative relationship to exist, no single system can work in isolation from the others, and there must be room for change and adaptation.
Now, specific attention directed toward law and justice--it proposes that balance would be achieved through change, thus fulfilling its mandate, which was to inquire into and make findings about the state of condition with respect to aboriginal people in the justice system in the province of Manitoba.
The Aboriginal Justice Inquiry presented 306 recommendations to the government of Manitoba. As the resolution says, only a fraction to date of the recommendations have been followed up on. In following up on his recommendations, the government responded to only certain issues through separate means, contrary to what the First Nations and the other aboriginal leadership in this province felt was proper.
By addressing each problem area identified within the report on a piecemeal basis, the government abandoned the purpose of the inquiry, which on the whole required both a plan and a commitment for change.
The AJI also identified ongoing problems with the aboriginal population where historical actions on the part of government had severe consequences on First Nations, perpetuating social problems from one generation to the next.
Each of the sections of the report implies that government's approach, justice issues, through comprehensive and co-operative programming across departments can promote concepts of noninterference; caring, community-based solutions; self-determination and healing in their overall vision for a fairer system for aboriginal people by respecting and ultimately practising these traditional principles.
The adjustment for both aboriginal and nonaboriginal systems can be less compromising, which traditionally was the relationship between government and First Nations.
The report goes into great detail about the historical relations between aboriginal and nonaboriginal people, specifically how each situation destroyed its traditions and culture of these people, such as the treaties and the reservation system, colonial influences, residential schools and the Indian Act.
These governing factors must never be taken out of context when dealing with any matter affecting aboriginal people. They are the roots behind each of these problems. Therefore, in order to achieve any change for the benefit of aboriginal people, we must first have a complete understanding of each problem; second, devise a plan to address the problem; and third, implement a plan with as many resources as possible.
While evaluation and assessment is important for the success and outcome of each activity, governments must understand, what works in one community does not necessarily mean it will work in another. This is what makes aboriginal systems unique, that each nation or population is autonomous with their own traditions, beliefs and practices. Thus each community must have the opportunity to achieve change according to their identified needs.
Since the release of the AJI report, we have asked many questions around the government's intentions to implement the recommendations, particularly the major ones. Specifically questions around the analysis and the plans of governments were raised to determine intentions of governments. I think that aboriginal people have been truly patient in this respect.
Four years have passed now since the releasing of the report, and government can only come up with a handful of responses to specific recommendations.
We would like to know, both on this side of the House and also as an aboriginal person, when does this government plan on implementing the rest of the recommendations? When will this government release an official response or analysis of the report? And has this government initiated consultation with the federal government, and what is the extent of consultation between this government and the federal government, and what has resulted from these consultations?
In Estimates the minister alluded to a variety of undertakings of government in response to the AJI recommendations. For example, the minister stated that the portion of the $1 million AJI fund was allocated to the St. Theresa Point youth court model which was only a pilot project and whose funds have been exhausted and is no longer an operation. What types of programs have been receiving funds from the AJI fund, which is in the neighbourhood of $1 million, and how much of the fund remains to be spent? And when will the government update the public on the programs that have been receiving funding to date, and under what sort of criteria does the program have to fit to receive a portion of this funding?
The AJI reported statistics on the make-up of the aboriginal population as a percentage on the whole prison population. In 1965, 22 percent of the total Stony Mountain population was aboriginal. In 1984, it was 33 percent. In 1989, 40 percent, and today in 1995 the population is 48 percent, and those are figures that are obtained only by those who declare their aboriginal ancestry.
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We believe that if more of the recommendations from the AJI had been acted upon in a prompt and comprehensive manner, especially those relating to the creation of an aboriginal justice system, jail location and capacity responding to aboriginal needs, aboriginal people in the child welfare system in Manitoba, and aboriginal youth and the justice system, to name only a few, this statistic would not have increased. In fact, in our opinion, it would have decreased. By allowing four years to pass without intense programming for aboriginal people, these factors contributing to overrepresentation have become perpetual.
Is it the position of this government to allow for the entire institutionalization of aboriginal people, and what percentage of the whole will the aboriginal population in Stony Mountain have to reach for this government to take action?
We have commended the minister on many of the endeavours that this government has acted upon. Last summer in Estimates the minister went into great detail about some of the initiatives, and we commended her for those initiatives and those activities. However, we would like to get down to the specifics and find out exactly what studies have been done, and as the resolution itself talks about, we would like to get down to the specifics of these matters, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
I would like to talk about some interesting statements from the AJI. First of all the AJI, page 653, says that we must "Ensure that child welfare and youth justice services are integrated and coordinated." On page 535, "It is false economy to reduce services to children and families in need, because the effects of such reductions will inevitably show up in other systems."
"We see the opportunity for Aboriginal child and family service agencies to be a building block towards the development of more comprehensive social and justice services for Aboriginal communities." That is talked about on page 538. "Young offenders be removed from their community only as a last resort and only when the youth poses a danger to some individual or to the community."-- page 565. "What is needed is to have the justice system and the child welfare system develop a coordinated and cooperative approach to the problems of young people. They should be working in unison . . . . Youth with problems should receive assistance from both services."--page 571. Alternative Measures in Manitoba: The power to develop guidelines for alternative measures programs be removed from the Department of the Attorney General--page 580.
The youth justice system must be different. It must truly seek to provide minimal interference and allies the youth by developing alternatives to criminal changes and to a formal court processing. We believe the answer to dealing with the problems of young offenders is to provide services that take into account the culture, background and needs of an aboriginal young person. The services must be supportive rather than punitive--page 589. So we believe that boot camps are not the answer.
We would like to refer back to an action plan that was drawn up by the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, the Manitoba Metis Federation, the Indigenous Women's Collective and the Aboriginal Council of Manitoba. They came up with an option to develop an aboriginal justice secretariat that would act as a collective resource for the aboriginal organizations to use in preparing for the working groups. The secretariat would be comprised of four or five technical staff, secretarial assistance and computer facilities.
Also with this proposed mechanism, it was felt that this mechanism would best be able to act upon the major recommendations of the AJI working with the provincial government, the federal government and also the city government, whatever government level some of these issues may affect. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the resolution is straightforward. We are not doing anything controversial here.
Simply what we would like to do is request that the provincial government release all studies and analysis to each of the recommendations of the AJI report. If it has not, to begin that work. Also that this Assembly request that the provincial government immediately consider commencing work with aboriginal organizations to implement the recommendations of the AJI. It is important to remain in contact with the leadership of the aboriginal community, both at the First Nations level and at the Metis level.
Finally, we request that the Minister of Justice consider releasing publicly an action plan so that all Manitobans know exactly where the course of the AJI will take us in the time to come. I ask for the members in this House to consider supporting this resolution, and I thank you for the opportunity to speak on this, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I am very pleased to speak to the issue of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry and what has resulted from that plan, which was commissioned by this government. I will tell you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that I do intend to move some amendments to this resolution which was put forward.
I would like to take a little bit of time first of all to speak about all of the work which has been done on the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry. It was first of all this government that commissioned the inquiry. One of the major recommendations which flowed from that was a totally separate native justice system. However, that simply is not possible to do within the existing constitutional framework, so this government, in looking at that matter, saying that it is not possible to do that, has undertaken to do a great deal of work in all areas of the justice system.
We are looking at a great deal of work which is being done at the policing end, which is being done through our courts process and which is also being done at our Corrections end. It has been a very holistic approach. I would not want to leave any suggestion on the record that we are not working with aboriginal communities. That in fact is quite wrong. As I go through the initiatives that this government has put forward, I would be very happy to demonstrate the work that we are doing with communities across this province.
(Madam Speaker in the Chair)
In fact, the work of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry and the results where it applies to the province simply would not be possible to accomplish this without the support of the aboriginal community itself.
Madam Speaker, I am going to begin in the Corrections area and speak for a few moments about some of the work which has been done in the Corrections area, which I believe is making some very positive changes and as a result of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry.
We have entered into a number of community participation agreements with aboriginal band councils. What that means is that instead of simply looking at our Community Corrections as it exists within the government of Manitoba and the Department of Justice, we enter into agreements with the aboriginal community to conduct their probation services. These community participation agreements with bands obviously require the partnership with the community, so let the record show that there is a concerted effort to work with the communities in all areas and this is one example.
Madam Speaker, we have also looked at deploying Community Corrections positions to a number of aboriginal communities to make sure that there is an involvement. We have also again, on the staffing side, taken a look at our aboriginal recruitment. As I spoke about when we covered this in Estimates, I told the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) that this branch has an objective to increase the level of affirmative action staff in the branch and in particular aboriginal staff.
The strategies to accomplish this include making an allowance to interview native applicants in their own communities or in friendship centres, including an aboriginal staff member on interview panels, screening of bulletins by aboriginal staff to ensure that the content of those bulletins is clearly understandable, and publication of job bulletins to the aboriginal media.
Madam Speaker, we also have an Aboriginal Advisory Committee as part of our overall strategy for enhancing aboriginal program development and support for the aboriginal staff. At the moment I am speaking about the staffing side in the Department of Justice. We have developed Aboriginal Advisory Committees, and these committees can be used by individual operating units. They are active both at youth correctional centres and at our youth correctional centres in Manitoba.
We also have aboriginal staff consultations where we could have opportunities to discuss with the staff what are the issues and the priorities of our aboriginal staff. What flowed from those consultations was the continued liaison of the aboriginal staff within the recruitment process, our commitment to do that. The goal is to ensure that aboriginal staff be included in the total recruitment process from the bulletining of the position right through to the final board decision, that supervisory and management training for those aboriginal staff who want to be part of the EPM process also be facilitated, and that aboriginal staff attendance at training courses identified for aboriginal people throughout our organization and staff development be facilitated.
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Madam Speaker, the staffing side is only one part. It is an important part, and I do not believe the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) discussed the staffing issue in which we have made a large number of developments. I would just like to very quickly add on the staffing area, as well, native elders. Elders are in place at all of our adult and our youth institutions. We have a local elders council. A council of Manitoba elders involved in Corrections was established, and it meets every two months.
We have native liaison workers, Madam Speaker, to improve the co-ordination and the development of aboriginal-based programs and elder services. Native liaison workers have been established at Milner Ridge, at The Pas and at Headingley.
We also recognize that for aboriginal people within our institutions--and the member referred to Stony Mountain continually in his speech, but I am sure he is aware that Stony Mountain is operated by the federal government. Stony Mountain is for those offenders who are committed to greater than two years less a day. Our provincial institutions see offenders who have been committed by the court to two years less a day. Within our institutions, Madam Speaker, we have initiated a great deal of aboriginal offender programming, and this is both at our youth institutions and also at our adult institutions.
At our youth institutions, we have had the erection of a teepee at the Manitoba Youth Centre to foster native awareness and to provide a sacred place for aboriginal teaching. The Agassiz Youth Centre holds sweats which have allowed many residents to participate. Both institutions include native awareness as part of the basic training received by the JC1 staff. Several residents from the Manitoba Youth Centre have participated in sweats on reserves, and both institutions have developed native awareness programs. The Manitoba Youth Centre has designed theirs as a credit course, and the programs focus on the understanding of traditional ceremonies and traditions. There is reading and resource material purchased for residents to learn about aboriginal culture. The Agassiz Youth Centre has held powwows in '93 and '94 and are planning one, and I believe one occurred in June of '95.
Madam Speaker, we have, as I said, aboriginal cultural education at the Manitoba Youth Centre because we have understood that it is important for participants to understand the importance and place of prayer in native culture, to heighten the awareness and to promote discussion of current aboriginal issues and to help the participants understand and experience smudging, to help participants understand the Indian art and how it has impacted on aboriginal issues today.
There are a number of objectives which we continue to meet through our programming for young offenders. As I spoke about earlier, we have the native spirituality program which is operating at the Agassiz Youth Centre and reintegration of aboriginal young offenders from northern Manitoba that occurs at the Agassiz Youth Centre.
We also have an aboriginal spouse abusers program. The spouse abuse program material is very specifically designed for aboriginal male offenders who are abusers and is available throughout the province, but it is most appropriate for remote and the isolated areas of northern Manitoba.
We also have family group conferences which draw significant persons from the offenders community together to provide guidance and support to the formulation and the implementation of plans for offenders. So on the Corrections side, Madam Speaker, I believe that we have been working very hard with communities to identify what it is that offenders need and also which staff people need to make a difference in the area of Justice.
We also have honourary probations officers in aboriginal communities. These are volunteer citizens, designated by the Minister of Justice to assist probation officers in the delivery of Community Correction services.
The member also raised questions about the Aboriginal Justice Initiatives fund, and I was very careful during the process of Estimates to give him quite a list of some of the programs which have been funded through the AJI fund. Some of those programs were shorter term; others are longer term. I know that if he has a look at that, he will have the opportunity to remind himself of the use of the money set aside through the AJI fund.
Very quickly, additional funding for the Ma Mawi Wi Chi Itata Centre for the operation of the intensive supervision and judicial interim release program, funding for culturally appropriate programming for aboriginal offenders across Manitoba convicted of spousal abuse, and I gave some detail on that.
Madam Speaker, I know my time is becoming short, so I want to very quickly speak about some of the other initiatives which we have instituted following the AJI: employment skills program in our adult institutions at Headingley, and also the policing, the aboriginal policing agreements. That is one that most certainly requires the co-operation and the participation of the community. Under the framework of the agreement, it requires that it is a tripartite agreement between the federal government, the province and the aboriginal community who will determine themselves what type of policing they would like to have for their community.
In the area of courts, we have also moved to a northern paralegal project where three paralegals who are fluent in Cree and English are based out of Thompson and The Pas. These paralegals fly into communities in advance of the court party to help improve the quality of services being provided by duty counsel. We have an Aboriginal Court Worker Program. We have an aboriginal magistrate recruiting process. The department has nine aboriginal magistrates who have jurisdiction over matters such as swearing documents, assessing fines, releasing and remanding into custody persons who are accused of having committed offences. This is an example across the whole spectrum of the justice system, policing, courts, Corrections, that we have included and made, I believe, very significant steps in the area of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry.
The member said that he did in fact say that he supported a lot of what we have done. I will quote from the Hansard for the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson): I believe it has been my practice as a member to commend ministers of various departments on initiatives, particularly as they relate to aboriginal people, and I quote, Madam Speaker, and I will do that again tonight. Many times we are not aware of these initiatives.
Madam Speaker, now we have made the member across the way aware, I would like to propose an amendment to this resolution. I move, seconded by the member for Riel (Mr. Newman),
THAT Resolution No. 11 be amended by deleting all words following the first WHEREAS and replacing them with the following:
WHEREAS the provincial government issued its response to the Report of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry on January 28, 1992, with proposed initiatives in the areas of policing, courts, corrections and other justice services, as well as Family Services, Natural Resources and Northern and Native Affairs; and,
WHEREAS the provincial government has confirmed its support for the First Nations Policing Policy and this has led to the signing of several agreements with aboriginal communities pursuant to the First Nations Policing Policy; and,
WHEREAS there are 14 aboriginal community magistrates appointed by the provincial government of Manitoba who provide culturally appropriate justice services to a number of aboriginal communities across this province; and,
WHEREAS Legal Aid Manitoba will be opening an Aboriginal Law Centre to provide culturally sensitive services to aboriginal clients, and this will improve the access of the justice system to peoples of aboriginal descent;
THEREFORE be it resolved that the provincial government be applauded for its ongoing commitment to improve the access of the justice system to aboriginal communities and for implementing numerous culturally appropriate initiatives in the Department of Justice and across government.
Thank you, Madam Speaker.
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Point of Order
Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, I wish to rise once again on a point of order in regard to yet another amendment being brought in by the government. I would like to raise the issue once again of the admissibility of the amendment.
It is very similar in form to many of the amendments we have been seeing thus far in the session. I would like to cite I think a key quotation in Beauchesne which refers to the basic intent of amendments, which is to either modify a question in such a way as to increase its acceptability or present to the House a different proposition as an alternative to the original question. That is a citation that is originally found in Erskine May, page 395, 20th edition, 1983. While the amendment does satisfy some general aspects as making reference to the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, it certainly, I do not think, does much to achieve the clear intent of amendments, which is to come up with a different conclusion in the matter.
Now, if the government wishes to make an amendment that came to a different conclusion than that of the original motion brought on by the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson), that certainly is in order and in fact I would point to the government House leader and deputy House leader the various citations which refer to both admissible amendments, 570 through 572, and inadmissible amendments which continue, Beauchesne's Citation 579.
The key point, Madam Speaker, is I do not believe this amendment does satisfy the requirements of 567. Essentially what it does is it does not achieve a different conclusion on the original subject matter. What it does really is bring in I think a matter that would be best dealt with by a separate motion. If the government wishes to congratulate itself on something that it feels it has done, it has the opportunity to do that through a government resolution, and we can debate that matter on its merits.
But I would ask that you take the matter under advisement, as I know you have under other circumstances involving amendments which were drafted in a very similar form. I do believe, Madam Speaker, that it does raise the very serious question as to the very purpose of private members' hour, which is for private members to be able to bring forth matters of significant concern to them, such as the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, this particular motion we are dealing with. It is not and never has been a forum for governments to bring in self-serving amendments to resolutions or self-serving resolutions themselves. This is private members' hour and I believe that this matter, if it were to be dealt with at all, should be dealt with as a separate motion, a government motion, and we ought not waste the time of private members' hour on what I believe is a very questionable amendment.
Point of Order
Hon. Darren Praznik (Deputy Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, the point raised by the opposition House leader, the opposition House leader has quoted some of the relevant sections of Beauchesne and he talked about the ability to come to a different conclusion.
The honourable member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) in the WHEREAS section of his particular resolution outlines the general nature of the topic, which is the release of information, action on the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, and draws a conclusion that urges this House to get on with the business. I think, when one examines the remarks made by the honourable Attorney General (Mrs. Vodrey) on this matter and outlines some of the facts with respect to the actions that have been taken by her department, by the government to respond to this matter and the facts as to what has been done and what goes on, it leads to a different conclusion for the same general subject that the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) has raised.
We would submit, Madam Speaker, to you that this amendment is certainly within the order of the rules. It certainly proposes a different alternative or a different result, but still deals with the same issue, which is the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry and the actions that had been taken, and it recognizes the facts of the matter as the Attorney General has put out. Given other similar amendments that have been put forward and accepted by the Chair in this House, we would argue that it is within the rules and the way in which those rules have been dealt with by the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.
Madam Speaker: On the point of order, I listened with interest to both the honourable member for Thompson and the honourable acting government House leader. I think there is considerable room for larger debate with the intent and purpose of private members' hour, and I certainly would love to participate in that debate.
Also, I think all members in this House should be cognizant of the fact that miracles take a little longer, and sometimes, with these very convoluted amendments coming forward and being presented to the table officers as upon completion of reading, it is almost a formidable task, an almost impossible task for both table officers and Speaker to make very, very honest rulings relative to the content of this without consuming private members' time, which each honourable member indeed is entitled to during the time allotted.
As Speaker, I have great difficulty spending 10 or 15 minutes here on my feet trying to ascertain whether indeed the amendment is or is not in order. What I will be doing now--I was going to do it in a private meeting with House leaders, but I will be serving notice that until both sides of the House have a meeting and come to a resolve with relation to how they want to deal with private members' resolution, I will indeed be taking all amendments under advisement.
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Madam Speaker: To continue debate on the original resolution.
Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, I can fully appreciate your sentiment of a plague on both your Houses, but this is the House from the left speaking now.
I want, first of all, to join with my colleague from Rupertsland and say to the minister that, yes, there have been some good things done, and we appreciate that. Specifically, we commend her for the provincial government's involvement with affirmative action advisory committees and the involvement of elders and so on. I do not know if those are new things. I am sure they were also done in the past, but we do not want to simply be talking negatives only.
Madam Speaker, in 1989, the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry commission, I believe, was in The Pas, and the chief of The Pas at that time, Chief Oscar Lathlin, in, I think, a rather prophetic statement said the following, and I would like to read it to you: This is the biggest fear that we have of this inquiry that nothing will be done once the inquiry is over.
This was Chief Oscar Lathlin. Well, he was not far wrong. The Aboriginal Justice Inquiry report has been all but shelved. There have been some good things, but we are talking piecemeal. We are not talking a grand strategy here. We are not talking about the paradigm shift that would be necessary for the nonaboriginal community to really understand what is happening with the aboriginal community. This is most disappointing because, of the over 300 recommendations made by the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, only a handful have been implemented.
The political will to take AJI seriously, to take the recommendation seriously, I believe, is missing, and it is missing possibly for a variety of reasons. I do not think it is bad will. I just believe that Canadians, Manitobans, do have a sense of fair play, but they are very much culture bound. They are very much in the European tradition, and it is extremely difficult to get out of that tradition and to understand and to feel, to really be part of where the aboriginal community lives.
We know that something is terribly wrong. I need not tell the honourable members that. Twelve percent of Manitoba's population is of aboriginal descent, and well over 50 percent in our jails are people of aboriginal descent. We know there is something wrong. We know the violence, and we know the abuses. We know this happens everywhere where there are people under stress, where there is a people under stress, and that is what we have to address, that stress. Something is wrong, but how do we improve it? How do we change it?
Madam Speaker, I do not need statistics to tell me, of course, that something is wrong. We talk about solitudes all the time in Canada. Quebec is a solitude. Anglo-Canada is a solitude. I believe that is nothing as compared to the solitude between aboriginal and nonaboriginal people. I think there are two tremendous solitudes there, and we have not even begun to bridge them. I understand the aggravation and the anger and sometimes the violence that explodes from aboriginal communities because they feel that they have been neglected and shelved to the periphery of this country and to the periphery of the political agenda.
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I think, Madam Speaker, I am not amiss here when we talk about justice and the Justice Inquiry to take a look at some of the elements that make up the classing cultural imperatives, the world views of these two communities, the nonaboriginal, mainly European, and the aboriginal.
Let us talk just about a few of them, because the inquiry itself also deals with them. For example, aboriginal people tend to believe that humanity is the last link, perhaps the worst link, the final link, the most destructive link on mother earth, whereas we from European descent tend to believe that we must dominate nature, that we must subdue creation, that we are the pinnacle of creation. That is why we have these hierarchical models, whether it is a pope at the top or a president or a premier. Usually they are white middle-class males or whatever, wearing ties. That is a pyramid, Madam Speaker, and that pyramid symbol does not fit aboriginal people. They have the circle, and the circle is flexible and it opens and it closes. It is much more comprehensive; it is much more inclusive. It is much more, I think, connected with nature.
We tend to be, in the nonaboriginal tradition, much more individual, much more nuclear family, whereas in the aboriginal community, the extended family is important, the large contacts are important. When you deal with justice, we are not simply dealing with getting even, if you like, or even rehabilitation, but with an equilibrium in the community itself, trying to recreate, trying to re-establish that equilibrium. That is important to notice. I think we have to be aware of the noncompetitiveness, the sharing of the aboriginal community which is so sadly lacking in our own culture even though many of us claim to be Christians.
The emotional restraint of native people is something you have to appreciate and you have to understand. The nonspeaking, the purpose of silence. We do not have that in our culture. We are very loud. We are very brash. We are very media oriented. We are looking for that five-second sound bite. The aboriginal culture puts tremendous pressure on the elders, pressure in the sense that their wisdom is sought. We tend to shove our elders into old age homes. The aboriginal culture--and you have to get used this, and I have great difficulty with it--is very flexible with time. Time does not mean the same as it means for the nonaboriginal people. Those are all things we have to take into account when we deal with justice.
We have to realize also that aboriginal cultures tend to be connected to the earth. Their spirituality is earthbound. It is not that transcendant stuff, you know, heaven and God or whatever over there. It is a lot more immediate. It is a lot more visceral. It is a lot more real. It is a lot more honest. Some of the most honest, some of the most real people you will ever meet, you will have to go and visit Tadoule Lake or Lac Brochet or some of those aboriginal communities.
Madam Speaker, I know that we are to talk about the inquiry itself. The commissioners, Justices Murray Sinclair and Alvin Hamilton did a remarkable and thorough job investigating the justice system and making recommendations. Two of my colleagues, the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) and Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson), both played important roles in this investigation. I congratulate them for their efforts. The inquiry travelled over 30 communities, many of them remote, and listened to over 1,000 people during the course of their investigation.
The release of the report four years ago led to a great deal of optimism and hope. Regrettably, four years later that hope has turned to disillusionment largely. The record of this provincial government in dealing with First Nations of this province has been for the most part neglect, but in all honesty there are some good points and I have pointed them out to the minister. Overall it has been piecemeal; it has not been a grand strategy at all. It is no understatement to point out that this has been a deliberate policy by the current government, we believe.
A recent commentary in the Winnipeg Free Press called aboriginal people pawns in a power game with the provincial government. For residents of South Indian Lake and Granville Lake there is absolutely no doubt on this issue. Both communities have been pushed back and forth between the federal and provincial governments over which government is responsible for basic rights such as social assistance.
The Aboriginal Justice Inquiry commission was set up by the former NDP government because we recognized that the system was not working for the First Nations of this province. We did not believe that the high incarceration rate of aboriginal people in provincial prisons was acceptable. Justice was clearly not working for the First Nations of this province.
It was the NDP view that the perpetrators of the horrible murder of Helen Betty Osborne deserved an investigation, as did the circumstances surrounding the murder of J.J. Harper.
As the AJI report states on its first page, and I quote: "The justice system has failed Manitoba's Aboriginal people on a massive scale. It has been insensitive and inaccessible, and has arrested and imprisoned Aboriginal people in grossly disproportionate numbers. Aboriginal people who are arrested are more likely than non-Aboriginal people to be denied bail, spend more time in pre-trial detention and spend less time with their lawyers, and, if convicted, are more likely to be incarcerated.
It is not merely that the justice people has failed Aboriginal people; justice also has been denied to them. For more than a century the rights of Aboriginal people have been ignored and eroded. The result of this denial has been injustice of the most profound kind. Poverty and powerlessness have been the Canadian legacy to a people who once governed their own affairs in full self-sufficiency."
These are powerful words, Madam Speaker. They were also fair comments on a system that was not working. The report has been considered the landmark Canadian investigation of how justice systems work in this country and is required reading in many courses in Justice departments in this country.
Regrettably, four years after its release, there is no evidence that anyone in the cabinet of this provincial government has ever really read this report thoroughly. The current Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) has never said a word about the report in the time that I have been in this Legislature--I will exclude today--nor have any of her colleagues.
Despite repeated requests by my colleagues and First Nations organizations, the province has never stated which of the 306 recommendations it accepts, which it opposes or the analysis of the recommendations themselves.
After four years, the provincial government has failed to even meet with aboriginal organizations to work on implementing some of the recommendations. The cabinet has put forward a budget line called AJI Initiatives but refuses to outline what the details of these initiatives are and how these secret initiatives are chosen.
To most independent observers, this government simply has shelved the report and is hoping that people have forgotten about it. This lack of action has worsened an already tragic situation. The lack of interest of the province in the report has created further cynicism and despair among many First Nations people.
Bad as the incarceration figures were before the AJI, they have actually worsened now. It is time that the province started working in partnership with the First Nations of this province. There is much that can be done by the province which will not only save tax dollars but will mark real progress in this province.
The First Nations of this province are not looking for handouts, let us make that clear. They are not looking for handouts. They are looking for changes to a system that clearly is not working. It is my hope that this resolution can come to a vote, that the passage of this resolution will encourage the cabinet to rethink their position on the AJI recommendations.
I would like to conclude by saying that, yes, I agree with the minister, we should have a tripartite approach, and we should have some grand strategies. We should have some strategies for action. These would have to deal with self-government. It would have to deal with the justice system. Now if it cannot be completely their own justice system, it has to be fairly independent.
We need a claims tribunal to adjudicate, fairly and honestly, resources such as wild rice, dealing with hunting, fishing, co-management, even such things as membership codes for aboriginal people because some Metis are now status and C-31 problems have arisen lately.
Let us make no mistake about it, the aboriginal people are under stress. They are a people in poverty. There are some serious problems there. They are a people who have been incredibly patient considering what is happening, but that patience is just about ending.
Madam Speaker, I think we have to work in conjunction with these people, the province, the aboriginal people themselves and the federal government. We have to look for some swift solutions or there could be some serious problems in the near future. Thank you.
Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Labour.
Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Northern Affairs): Madam Speaker, it has been some time since I have served in that portfolio.
Madam Speaker: I apologize, the honourable Minister of Northern and Native Affairs.
Mr. Praznik: Thank you very much. I would not want to be confused, Madam Speaker, with my good friend and colleague, the member for Rossmere (Mr. Toews), who now serves in that capacity as Minister of Labour, and doing a very fine job, if I may offer him that compliment at this particular time.
Madam Speaker, I want to thank the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) today most sincerely for bringing this topic to discussion in the House and having this kind of debate on this very important subject. I know that he comes to this debate with great sincerity, and he comes to bring to the floor of this House, and represents a vast constituency in this province, the concerns that are certainly there with respect to justice issues and the aboriginal community. Knowing the member for Rupertsland I know that he does bring this issue very sincerely to the floor of this House.
One great regret, I think, with the whole private members' process, and this is one that I share, I believe, with the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale), the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), myself, the member for Emerson constituency (Mr. Penner) who spent a great deal of time over the last couple of years representing our caucuses in debate and discussion about rule changes.
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This process does lead, very regrettably, to the scenario where we have resolutions come forward, many of them come forward to meet a certain political demand of the moment or attempt to in the way they are even drafted, often put information that a government does not feel truly represents the facts of a particular situation. The response is amendments that come forward that attempt to, as my colleague the member for Thompson said, pat the government on the back, et cetera.
Most regrettably to the people of this province, that process has over the years, going back through many administrations, lead to this kind of process of resolution and amendment in our Legislature. I, for one, as a legislator feel that it is not an adequate means to discuss issues, that is not an adequate vehicle to bring to the floor of this House discussions that have to be had from time to time on issues that are of importance to the people of our province. So, as a member of this House, I hope that at some time in the future agreement can, obviously, be struck to reform this whole private members' process in a way that I think takes out the kind of forum we now have where process and procedure dictates how we deal with issues, and often in not a very complimentary way to those issues.
So, I want to preface my remarks, because knowing the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) I have a great deal of respect for that member. He does come sincerely to this debate with this issue.
Madam Speaker, the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen), a new member to this House, spoke about secret initiatives, shelved report, lack of action, et cetera. Those, of course, are words that, I believe, talk about an issue to which there are two sides to that coin. I say that sincerely to him, because I do not think that there have been secret initiatives. I do not think that there have been shelved reports or lack of action. I think, quite frankly, the problem with the aboriginal justice process and the problem with the report is it is such a massive document that makes 300-and-some references, I understand, or 300-and-some recommendations, some of them very general, such as on land claims that have to be settled, others that are very specific.
Many of those recommendations are in a jurisdiction that this Legislature does not have. Many of those recommendations rest in federal jurisdiction over which we, as legislators, have no control or no input, or very little input but certainly no control. And so, in such a massive document as the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, initiatives that are made by the government, attempts to change--particularly the more innocuous things, but nonetheless very important things in process and procedure and the way departments operate, et cetera, get done--they do not attract the kind of fanfare, they do not attract the great media attention that allows the public to fully be aware that those matters have been done.
I do not blame anyone for that. That is the reality of public life. There are many things, many parts of that document that have been implemented and done in a very quiet, everyday way where they should be done that affect the way aboriginal people are dealt with in our justice system. They have been done in the Attorney-General's outline, many of them both today and in previous speeches. There are many areas that are far more complex that we do not associate with the AJI.
If my recollection serves me well, Madam Speaker, one particular area, of course, is in the settlement of land claims, a great frustration. We have heard that come forward. That is an area for which I have responsibility, and I can tell the member that that is not, as the member knows, an easy or a simple process. The fact that we have made great progress in the last couple of years on Northern Flood, although I have not yet been able to come to this House to report that we have firmly concluded another arrangement, although we are very close.
As we speak today, the Nelson House community is continuing, I understand, with their voting on an agreement that we have concluded. York Landing is very close to calling a referendum, if they have not done it already. Norway House had a couple of issues that we have met on recently, and that I understand one in particular may have been resolved by my colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Driedger), thereby allowing that agreement to go forward. Cross Lake is one that is somewhat more distant. We are not currently at the bargaining table, but in discussions I had with Chief Sidney Garrioch last week when I met him at a particular meeting and some of the other issues that have come up, I think Cross Lake is very close to having some significant movement at the table.
So in that area, and an area I point out to the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen), where the problem of the flooding of those northern communities and the Churchill Diversion happened before this minister was even in grade school. They happened, some of them, before I was even born. So I have to ask as a minister today to put things in context is, why? Here I am in my early thirties dealing with settling issues that took place really when my father was a very young man. Where was everyone else?
I am not trying to become overly partisan in this, but there have been a lot of MLAs sitting in this Chamber in that 25 or 30 years that have elapsed since the problem and the settlement. There have been a lot of people who have sat in that Premier's chair. There have been New Democrats, two in particular: one Mr. Schreyer and one Mr. Pawley, who have sat in that chair. People who represented most of northern Manitoba, MLAs representing constituencies like Flin Flon, Thompson, The Pas, Rupertsland and the old Churchill constituency sat here and at the cabinet table, and yet those matters were not settled.
In fact, when one goes back over the years and you look at Northern Flood, just for example, probably one of the most significant and disastrous decisions was made by Howard Pawley as a newly arrived Premier, when he did not hold the process firm to the dates that were required by the original Northern Flood Agreement because he made it a never-ending process. If he had held firm to the dates that had been in the original agreement, you know, with maybe a small extension, the pressure would have been on all parties to come to conclusion. It never happened. The result was, a decision made by Mr. Pawley's cabinet opened up the whole agreement, as has been told to me, that it went on forever. Quite frankly, the only people who benefited were the consultants and the legal advisors and the whole industry. That was the decision that was made.
Point of Order
Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. With all of the issues and the concerns that are raised by the AJI report and the lack of implementation, I ask that the minister keep to that very important issue rather than dealing with the Northern Flood Agreement.
Mr. Praznik: On the same point, Madam Speaker. The settlement of land claims is one of the issues in the aboriginal justice community. In fact, it is perfectly logical for the Minister of Northern Affairs to be addressing the issues that are particular in his competence. The member for St. Johns makes a mockery of the rules of this House.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. I was listening very closely to the minister's comments, and I was actually shocked and very surprised that he was being, in my opinion, relevant. The honourable member for St. Johns does not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts.
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Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the only thing I can draw, the only point I can draw from the comments of the member for St. Johns is that I have certainly hit a sore spot for the New Democratic Party, because the New Democratic Party, who governed this province for many years during this period, quite frankly did nothing or very limited effort to settle those difficult and outstanding grievances of our aboriginal community.
The member for St. Johns, I have obviously touched the sorest point with him, and I say that with no disrespect to the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson), because the member for Rupertsland comes sincerely to this issue. In my dealings with him, he has always wanted to move to conclusions and not relive the past of whoever has been in government but his colleague the member for St. Johns has a different issue.
The member for St. Johns raises treaty land entitlement. More has happened in the last few years in this province to move forward the settlement of treaty land entitlement than ever before in over a hundred years--a hundred years.
Madam Speaker, let us not forget that the obligations under treaty land entitlement are not with the province of Manitoba, they are with the Government of Canada; they are with Her Majesty the Queen in right of Canada, and our obligation is to make available only such unoccupied Crown land as satisfies the federal obligation pursuant to the 1930 transfer agreement but, given our small role, we have been working--
Madam Speaker: Order, please. When this matter is again before the House, the honourable Minister of Northern and Native Affairs will have four minutes remaining.
As previously agreed, the hour being 5 p.m., time for consideration of Proposed Resolution 12.
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Res. 12--Community Safety
Mr. David Newman (Riel): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), that
WHEREAS Manitobans of all ages have the right to safety and security in their homes, their communities and in their schools; and
WHEREAS the provincial government has pledged to protect Manitobans through a variety of measures such as tough antistalking measures, boot camps for young offenders and increased funding for provincial policing; and
WHEREAS partnerships have been formed between the provincial government and police, crime prevention organizations, the justice system, victim's services, municipalities and community organizations in order to help increase safety in Manitoba neighbourhoods; and
WHEREAS the safety and security of the individual, their families and their communities is essential to our quality of life.
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba endorse and support the provincial government and the Minister of Justice in their efforts towards the advancement of safety in our communities.
Motion presented.
Mr. Newman: Madam Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise today to speak to this resolution. We are, no doubt, all aware of the devastating effect crime can have on families and communities. The increasing concern on the part of the citizens of Manitoba and the amount of time dedicated to justice issues in the Assembly even today attest to the importance of community safety.
Our society is founded upon several key principles. Our Constitution tells us that everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice. To me, liberty and security are inextricably linked. A lack of personal security denies us the liberty to choose the way we live our lives.
Our government has continually demonstrated a strong commitment to protect the citizens of Manitoba and preserve their freedom. The proof of this commitment is found in our comprehensive initiatives and programs aimed at protecting the citizens of Manitoba.
When it comes to law and order, community involvement is the essential key to lasting and effective solutions.
Our government is battling crime on two fronts. On one hand, the myriad prevention and intervention measures are reducing the frequency and severity of crimes within our communities. On the other hand, stricter enforcement measures and stronger penalties emphasize the strength of our commitment to making our communities safer for all Manitobans.
Our history in Manitoba has proven that the great accomplishments of our society spring from the heart and will of the community. Governments can legislate, but real results must come from within the community.
Manitoba communities have expressed to our government that public safety and security are of paramount importance, and our government has listened. We have been working with concerned citizens and community leaders throughout Manitoba to make our neighbourhoods safer for all.
Grassroots initiatives such as the youth justice committees demonstrate how the community is taking an active role in the safety of our citizens. These committees have tailored their roles to suit the specific needs of the communities they serve. Of the 67 committees, 12 are in Winnipeg, 13 are on reserves and 42 others are established throughout rural Manitoba. While they have many roles--court liaison, mediation, victim-offender reconciliation and healing circle--they have in common their community development and crime prevention approach to justice issues.
What I find so impressive about these committees is that they are virtually entirely community driven and that they function almost solely from the efforts of community volunteers. Their fundamental focus is crime prevention through the development of community resources. They present an excellent example of the tremendous accomplishments achieved through partnerships between our government and the community. While the Department of Justice provides support in the form of training, administrative support and consultation, the committees themselves identify their needs, develop strategies to deal with problems specific to their area and decide their own course of action, and, Madam Speaker, I have witnessed first-hand that this process works.
I had the privilege of participating as an observer at a St. Boniface-St. Vital community justice meeting this summer. Three young offenders with the consent of their victims opted for the youth justice committee process rather than the courts. With their parents in attendance, these young offenders acknowledged their crimes and accepted the consequence of their actions.
These young Manitobans realized the severity of their crimes, but, more importantly, came to appreciate the effects of their criminal behaviour on other people in their community. They apologized in their own words to the people who are directly affected by their criminal actions. This represented an important first step in the healing process for both the victims and the offenders. They also promised never to repeat such criminal acts again and agreed to perform a prescribed number of hours of community service work within their very communities. In return, if they lived their lives within the accepted rules of society for two years, their criminal records would be cleared.
I am advised that the recidivism rate is low for young offenders who opt for this process. They learn their lesson and give back to the community at the same time. I am confident that these three young Manitobans who have accepted responsibility and the consequences for their crimes because of this process will be better and more productive citizens. I was impressed by the quality and commitment of the volunteers on this youth justice committee. They represented various segments of society but were all motivated by their genuine desire to help their community be a better and safer place to live.
This is the community in action. This is effective law and order. This is a made-in-Manitoba solution that is working. The anecdote I have shared is just one example of the positive results which are achieved through Justice initiatives every day throughout Manitoba. I am sure that within your communities, all of us in this Assembly, there are many other similar examples.
Discover for yourselves what great accomplishments these initiatives are making in your communities and share them with us in the debate on this resolution. Just as communities work together to find solutions, so must we during the private members' time allotted in this Assembly. The variety of initiatives suggested or implemented by justice committees is notable. Communities finance scholarship programs for high school students, anti-shoplifter programs, community workshop and information evenings, establishing Safe Grad, Block Parent and Neighbourhood Watch programs, to name a few.
They are all having a positive effect on the quality of life in this province for each and every one of us. Where justice committees are active and visible in the community, the result is increased public awareness, particularly with young offenders, that criminal behaviour is not acceptable. Their existence translates into improved community vitality and a greater sense of personal security.
In short, this process of empowering the community to make our neighbourhoods and homes safer is working. We have all heard through the media and from the mouths of those more cynical than ourselves that people in society are apathetic to crime. Perhaps this is true for some individuals in jurisdictions throughout North America, but I maintain that the citizens of Manitoba are by no means apathetic. On the contrary, community concern and involvement remain important values in Manitoba. When the Manitoba public feels strongly about an issue, such as they do about the safety of their neighbourhoods, they do get involved, and that involvement is what makes the difference.
The example of the youth justice committees underlines the fact we need more such initiatives. When we think about developing Manitoba's resources we should always keep in mind our most valuable resource, our citizens. We all have worthwhile contributions to make for the betterment of our society.
If life, as I have heard it referred, is a classroom, then society is the teacher and our youth are the students. Our values are often determined during the early years of our lives. This makes it extremely important for us as a society and as a government to help our young people determine the direction their lives should take. This government has encouraged the development of programs to help youth find the right path and help them regain it once lost. The No Need to Argue initiative is one example of how our government is assisting our youth, the future of Manitoba. Who better recognizes the challenges facing our youth than our youth themselves? Students ranging from elementary years to senior high school participated in a pilot project and addressed the issue of violence in their communities and schools.
Nordale School brought together students, police, parents and community members to begin developing positive alternatives to violence, drugs and crime. Other schools such as Gordon Bell, General Wolfe and Vincent Massey have developed conflict management and peer-assistant programs based on the premise of youth helping youth. This is another excellent example of the community identifying challenges and working together to find solutions. What I find most compelling about the program is that, after having been developed by Manitoba Justice and its key partners, it took on a life of its own. This youth-oriented initiative was supported by the communities, by corporate sponsors, by the school divisions and by the Winnipeg Police Service. The students identified their projects and implemented them. Violence, drugs and racism in our schools are some of the problems faced by our youth, and this program focused on youth ideas and results.
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The honourable Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) and this government have realized that punishment is not the only way to improve community safety. Lasting solutions can be developed within the community. In this day and age it is more important than ever for all of us to play a role in making our communities a safer place for our children and grandchildren to grow up. It has often been said that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I agree, this government agrees, and so do the people of Manitoba.
I have mentioned that we have introduced measures which will help youth find the right path after having lost it. One of these measures is the establishment of two youth night courts. This will encourage more parents to attend court with their children and cause less disruption to the school attendance of the youth and work schedule of the parent. The role and responsibilities of families and parents in the prevention of children becoming involved in violence and crime was a critical theme that evolved from the Summit on Youth Violence and Crime.
While the recommendations made by summit participants varied widely, it was generally agreed that parents, educators, community leaders and government must promote positive values and endeavour to set an example to youth by operating and living by those values. This includes ourselves as MLAs and our conduct inside this Assembly and elsewhere, I submit.
In September of 1994 this government introduced a made-in-Manitoba boot camp program. While we recognize the importance of prevention measures, we also realize that we are unable to prevent all offences. However, the boot camp program may be viewed as a prevention measure as well. While in the boot camps young offenders are exposed to intervention programming, academic programs, anger management counselling, substance abuse programs, aboriginal cultural awareness and victim awareness.
This new approach to youth corrections allows us to get tough on crime while addressing some of the reasons that offences are committed. Boot camp program presents a holistic approach to corrections in addition to intervention programming. It concentrates on community service work, academics and work preparation and a stringent release preparation and supervision program. Instead of giving up on young offenders, we are helping them regain the right path. We now have a tougher system with clear rules and known consequences, while at the same time we are working with the young person to change the attitudes and beliefs which lead to criminal behaviour. By providing young offenders with supports and services upon release, their reintegration into the community is far easier for them. This is not a lock-'em-up-and-throw-away approach. It is that we are firmly committed to making Manitoba safe for all, and that includes addressing problems faced by young offenders.
The Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) has worked on many other initiatives to keep our community safe. For instance, she continues to press the federal government to toughen the Criminal Code provisions which govern antistalking legislation. This government has made many proposals that are intended to toughen up that area. Our top priority is the protection of the victim and the security of the community.
Early in 1995, the Minister of Justice unveiled the procedure whereby information is released to the public where high-risk sexual offenders pose a danger to Manitobans. This is now implemented. We have increased our funding commitment to the RCMP in order to put more officers on the streets where they are needed. The urban safety program will support measures which enhance the safety of neighbourhoods while preventing crime and violence, particularly among youth. Again, partnerships with community groups is a fundamental element of this program. This government feels strongly about the issue of community safety. These strong feelings are echoed by the people of Manitoba. The Manitoba government is committed to further protect our citizens, and we will continue to do all we can to make Manitoba a better place to live, to work and to raise a family.
The unanimous endorsement of this resolution will demonstrate to all Manitobans that personal, ideological or political differences are secondary to the safety and security of Manitobans. A sharing of success stories and reasons for failures in the safety and security initiatives in our respective constituencies during the debate on this resolution will contribute to developing improvements. It is also a time to table new ideas which are practical and achievable.
As a private member during this private members' time, I have every intention of exercising my independence of mind and heart in the public interest whenever it is the responsible thing to do, and I believe it will be beneficial to all concerned for me to do so. In order to make this private members' hour more beneficial to all concerned, I want to encourage others to do likewise.
As a first step in this direction, I would like to indicate my appreciation for the resolution on fetal alcohol syndrome proposed by the honourable member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) as amended by the honourable member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale). With only a few constructive amendments invited by the honourable member for The Maples already, I would be able to support that resolution with enthusiasm. Thank you.
Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, I think the strange coincidence that this resolution appeared right after the resolution of the member for Rupertsland on the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry and its lack of implementation and just before my resolution which comes up tomorrow on the lack of proclamation of the Crime Prevention Foundation Act is very interesting, and I think it points to the two realities, the two different views of what is happening in Manitoba by this side versus what is happening on the other side of this Legislature.
I want to first of all deal with the member's comments on youth justice committees. I certainly endorse many of his observations about the value of youth justice committees as they are operating in Manitoba. I think, as one person on the Summit on Youth Crime and Violence said, it is one of our best-kept secrets. Manitoba, I understand, is leading the way in Canada in the development of youth justice committees, which is a tremendous way not only to ensure the accountability of a young offender to the community but to involve the community in what is essentially a community problem.
I trust that the member has read the discussion document that was distributed by this side in February of 1994. Actually, we were proud to have distributed 2,500 of these documents, mostly on request. The document entitled a Safer Manitoba, Empowering Community Action on Youth Crime, and in there we said a crime does not just affect the victim, it affects the whole community. The roots of crime are found in the community, so solutions to crime must come from that community.
As members of our various communities, we need greater ownership of the justice system. Once government allows a community to become empowered, long-term and immediate solutions to crime can be implemented with the support of the community. What works in one community may not work in another.
We then proposed a simple proposition. Allow community enforcement groups to deal effectively with less serious offences. Leave the serious, violent offenders to more focused courts. That means a better use of resources to ensure meaningful consequences to all offenders. Let us enable these community groups to have a say in local policing priorities and to pursue local crime prevention measures.
With that we went out and discussed this document with hundreds and hundreds of Manitobans, and particularly youth, particularly parents who were concerned about growing youth violence. This was heartily endorsed.
We then moved on with the course of the development of our platform and what we have been saying in this Legislature, that the youth justice committees have to be expanded, not only in their number but in their mandate. There is no reason why we have to deal only with young offenders in this kind of forum. Adults as well could be dealt with at the community level by facing up and making up to the victims so they know, this is not just another video game. It is not another body count. There is someone who is hurt. There is someone who may have lifelong consequences to bear as a result of a crime. We have to increase the number of youth justice committees so that neighbourhoods, not just broad communities, over a large geographic area have access to these committees. The mandate of these committees should be expanded so that they can get involved in recommending crime prevention initiatives.
I would also like to see the charges being referred not just from the Crown attorneys department, which often takes months to refer. I believe that references should also be made from the police directly. It is interesting that in many youth justice committees outside of Winnipeg that is taking place now, but in Winnipeg the charges must be referred through the Crown's office.
So we have identified what the good points are of youth justice committees and where the youth justice committees are wanting and where we can enhance their role.
I look forward to hearing more from the minister talking about youth justice committees, but I ask her to reflect and ensure that she is not thinking that community justice committees just spring up on their own.
It is easy to say that crime is a community problem and solutions must be found in the community because that can excuse people in government from seeing the role of this province in spurring positive change.
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I cannot think of any other agent in our community that can be as instrumental, as effective in empowering community action than the provincial government. It has a role to plant seeds. It has a role through funding. It has a role just with youth justice committees of sending out someone from the Department of Justice to parent organizations, for example, parent councils, to ask them to consider a youth justice committee in their neighbourhood.
There is no agent such as the provincial government that can work with the community, that can work with the police and the schools for a comprehensive crime strategy.
Now, getting to the essence of this resolution, I know the member said that he was bringing an independent spirit or an independent mind to private members' hour. I ask him, because I know the atmosphere that he lives and breathes in now over there, to truly be independent and really ask, what is a boot camp? Because in no way, shape or form is there a boot camp in Manitoba. I was very disappointed in the new member getting sucked into that spin. It was one of the most hideous PR stunts that has ever taken place in this province.
There are no boot camps in Manitoba, and all of the rehabilitative programs that the minister listed were in place before the minister made her announcement of minor tinkering to youth corrections in September of 1994. It boggles the imagination that any member of the government would bring into this Chamber a resolution stating as it does in the face of the disastrous record of the minister's nine-point plan on youth crimes.
That nine-point plan introduced over a year and a half ago, nine points, Madam Speaker, including the establishment of a provincial council on youth crime, was to be a committee of experts so that we could develop long-term solutions and look at crime prevention seriously, a plan that has promised a youth advisory council. I shudder to think now, a year and a half later, that if we had the youth advisory council in place I think we would have had some real good solutions from those who know best, the youth themselves, as to what can be done to reduce the crime in Manitoba.
I can go on down this list of broken promises. In fact, of the nine points that were promised over a year and a half ago, we can find no more than three that are fulfilled or now in place. That is a hideous record, and with that kind of a record, how could any resolution like this be seriously brought into this Chamber? This is not a judgment of the government on NDP terms or on my terms. No, this is a judgment of the government on its own standards, its own nine-point plan, an utter failure.
We have Casper's councils. We have three councils that the minister says exist, the minister's public relations exercise. We have got the crime prevention council; we have got the provincial council on youth crime; we have got the youth advisory council. We do not have any of those. Three of them--Casper's councils. It is like Fatso, Stinky and Stretchy, Madam Speaker. But the nerve of a government--to say something exists, let alone promise something, and fail to implement it after a year and a half.
What has happened in the meantime? For the second year in a row, Madam Speaker, for the second year in a row, Manitoba is the only province in Canada to have an increasing crime rate.
Actually, to be very specific, in 1993, we had the company of New Brunswick. This year, Manitoba is the only province in all of Canada to have an increasing crime rate. In most categories of crime, we have either the highest rate or the highest increase of rate. I know, Madam Speaker, how carefully we must review crime statistics, because there is no single measurement of crime, but there are indicators of crime, and I think Canadians all agree that there is no better indicator of crime than the incidence reported to police, which the report of Statistics Canada shows that Manitoba is at the bottom of the barrel. We are not doing well.
Now, is it the government's fault? Well, Madam Speaker, I respond this way. The solutions are complex. There is no easy solution. As I said earlier, there is no more effective tool than this government to try and spur community, school and police responses, but this government has failed even with its own plan, just for itself, let alone how this government's economic and social policies have in no small way bred the crime that we are having to deal with today, why this government's policies--and I do not have to go into all of them, but I look at the friendship centre, the friendship centre in central Winnipeg, in the core area, that provided a safe place for kids to go. It provided mentors. It provided youth programming, and what did this government do in its crime prevention strategy? It cut every nickel of support to that friendship centre--every nickel.
I understand that eight youth workers were let go as a result of that decision. They call that area and that neighbourhood the war zone, Madam Speaker. That is what is happening in this city. It is not going well. I wish this government would get out and see what is happening and see what is happening in this city, in particular.
There are communities of despair in this province, particularly in this city, and this government has to look to itself and to its own policies, Madam Speaker. In conclusion, I do not think we have to look further than the information that came to this House this morning.
We had the mother of a young victim who came down here after sending three letters to the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) with her concerns and not getting a single reply, except for a form letter from her assistant. She had to come down here to raise attention to how the backlogs in the youth court are letting violent young gang members get away without consequences for over one year.
One year after the offence took place, Madam Speaker, the young offender who was responsible for that incident has yet to face justice.
Point of Order
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): On a point of order, Madam Speaker, the member is bringing forward a case which he well knows is before the court. He invokes the privilege of this House to bring forward details which would not be acceptable if he stepped outside of the Chamber.
Madam Speaker, he knows well that as Attorney General I am unable to respond to any case before the court, and I think he should be very considering of his words and how the court will view them. This case is not yet disposed of.
Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): On the same point of order, I think the Minister of Justice is mistaken. The details brought to this House by the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) relate to the process, relate to the process undertaken by the Department of Justice, are not related to the specific issue dealing with the case in question, and it is perfectly in order of an elected member to bring to the attention of members of this House the process by which the Justice department is failing to invoke justice on the citizens of Manitoba.
It is a question of process; it is not a question of substance. Further, Madam Speaker, with regard to the question of substance, it is within the right of the member for St. Johns to bring particular matters to this Chamber dealing with issues raised by constituents.
The Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) is hiding behind her cloak of Minister of Justice in refusing to answer questions.
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Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member for Kildonan that his comments should not be personal. His comments when addressing a point of order should be explicit to the original point of order that was raised.
On the point of order, I indeed will take the point of order under advisement. I do want to consider our rules regarding sub judice in the context in which these comments were spoken. I do want to review the Hansard printout and tape in detail, and I will report back to the House.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, I did not intend my remarks to be personal. If they were, I certainly withdraw and apologize.
Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable member for Kildonan.
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Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns has two minutes remaining. The honourable member for St. Johns, to continue debate.
Mr. Mackintosh: Madam Speaker, further to my obligation to raise matters of public interest in this Chamber at all times, and in light of my obligations even within whatever roles the minister may be wanting to cite and she did not cite a single one--and I might remind the member that sub-judice convention does not prevent a member from doing anything in this Chamber, that the minister would like to get out of her responsibility and accountability for having a youth court system with one permanent Crown attorney, overseeing backlogs--and I look at this particular case--backlogs of an average of 11 months for the five offenders involved in this particular incident, backlogs of an average of 11 months.
It is interesting, Madam Speaker, because when I raised the issue, as I have on regular times, but when I raised this issue in Estimates in May or June, the minister said, oh, is the member thinking that delays of two and a half to three and a half months is somehow a delay.
Madam Speaker, the time has come when this minister has to face the music because there are going to be parents coming down here; there are going to be victims coming down here. Manitobans are fed up, and there must be some responsibility on the shoulders of this government for what is happening to crime in Manitoba. This is not the same province it was just a few years ago, and I say that because I do not think the fear for our safety has ever been as bad as it is now.
In conclusion, I commend the member for focusing on this important issue, and I commend him for his views on youth justice committees, but I regret that he has failed to take an independent view, particularly of what this government has promised in its nine-point plan, what the government's record is in trying to deal with young offenders.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member's time has expired.
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I, too, would like to put a few words on the record with respect to this particular resolution. It is an interesting resolution. I think the member for Riel (Mr. Newman), much like the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) the other day, we at times attempt to see a resolution debated and in fact ultimately voted upon.
In most cases what we see is, we will see resolutions amended in some fashion, but as a general rule, and I have had opportunity, as many individuals inside the Chamber, to have seen numerous resolutions actually passed with unanimous support of the Chamber. Generally speaking, if it is perceived from an opposition that you are patting the government on the back or if opposition is overly critical of government, the chances of the resolution passing are not that great.
I could comment fairly extensively on all the different issues which the member for Riel raises this afternoon, but a chord was struck when the youth justice committee system came up and the Young Offenders Act, and that is the reason why I thought that I would stand up and just comment in essence on those two issues. Had the resolution been of a nature in which it was fairly specific and seeking opinions and if it were complimenting all members on efforts that they might be putting forward in their own constituencies, then I would be speaking up saying, geez, this is a resolution that we should be passing, in fact.
Having said that, Madam Speaker, the youth justice committees are something which I first learned about just a short couple of years ago. I did that in my capacity as a campaign manager, actually, to my colleague for The Maples. As every night when we had the debriefing in terms of how things went on during the day, I found out what it was that these youth justice committees were all about. I would encourage very strongly that all members of the Chamber look into what actually can be accomplished through youth justice committees.
I personally actually sit on a youth justice committee. It is called the Keewatin Youth Justice Committee. I have derived many benefits out of that committee that go far beyond even dealing with justice issues in the province of Manitoba. It is always nice to be able to contribute back into the community efforts on a volunteer basis. This is one of the ways in which I personally have taken a great deal of pride in being able to assist in making the Keewatin Youth Justice Committee something that has been very supportive of that Keewatin area. It virtually serves the Meadows West, Garden Grove, Tyndall Park, Shaughnessy and Mynarski areas of the riding which I represent.
The member for Riel made reference to cases. I have had opportunity to sit in on our subcommittees, if you like, with the justice committee on numerous cases. It is very gratifying to see parents getting involved with the young offender. It is again gratifying to see the young offender in most cases coming forward and trying to explain why it is he or she had done what they were there to admit was in fact done. It is absolutely delightful to see the interest that the community itself has at participating in justice committees.
I have found, at least in the assisting of the establishment of the Keewatin Youth Justice Committee, that very few people know what a youth justice committee is all about. If MLAs, in particular MLAs, but other community leaders were to become better acquainted on just how a justice committee could benefit the community as a whole, I am sure that we would see many more justice committees. The current government and members of the opposition should be very supportive on any initiatives that the government takes dealing with youth justice committees, because I am of the personal opinion that the role can be greatly enhanced, Madam Speaker, and would like to see that in fact occur over the next number of years.
Another issue dealing with community safety--and that is the way I am going to address this particular resolution--is that of the community constables. There was an announcement from this government dealing with community police officers. I believe it was a commitment of 40-some officers and $2 million and, Madam Speaker, I hope that this government is very persistent with the city and look to in particular the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Reimer), the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) at ensuring that those dollars actually do end up going into community police or safety or whatever it is that we want to name them offices, and they should be neighbourhood based.
Now, how small of a neighbourhood? Well, that is somewhat debatable but, in fact, these community safety or police offices, if you will, can in essence be the hub of a particular geographical, hopefully small geographical area in which individuals who are interested in dealing with safety issues, whether it is youth justice, whether it is Neighbourhood Watch, whatever it might be, have a place to which they can go, express their concerns, share their concerns and start building more as a community to try to make the communities in which we live that much more safe and a pleasant place to be.
I for one over the next few years have made this a very high priority and will persist at all levels of government--actually, it was not that long ago I was at the current Minister of Justice's constituency office out in Ontario and had an opportunity to meet with some of the staff there and express some concerns that I had in terms of things such as the Young Offenders Act, things such as the justice committees, in hopes that the federal government will be supportive, Madam Speaker, in seeing the types of changes that constituents, not only my constituents, but I would ultimately argue constituents through the province are looking to see, and that is in fact leadership.
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But I would underline the importance of the fact that not as many people as I would like to see are as familiar and knowledgeable about the benefits of the youth justice committee. I am talking about, I would like to see 30, 40 percent ideally of our population being aware of what these justice committees and the great potential of community offices are all about. I think that as elected officials, all of us could put in a great deal of effort at ensuring that our constituents are in fact made aware as much as possible and promoting community leaders in getting involved in things of this nature.
I ultimately believe, Madam Speaker, that if we did just that, we would be living in a lot better place today. I appreciate the opportunity to say a few words. Thank you.
Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): It is a pleasure to get up and speak on this resolution put forward by the member for Riel (Mr. Newman). We, on this side of the House, I think, can support several of the WHEREASes in the member's resolution, and that is: the first, "WHEREAS Manitobans of all ages have the right to safety and security in their homes, their communities and in their schools;" and "WHEREAS the safety and security of the individual, their families and their communities is essential to our quality of life."
No reasonable person would deny the importance or the validity of those WHEREASes. However, I think that the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) has quite eloquently outlined some of the areas where we do have concerns with the rest of the other WHEREASes of the resolution. Most certainly, we have a great deal of concern with the RESOLVED portion of this resolution, that we "endorse and support the provincial government and the Minister of Justice in their efforts towards the advancement of safety in our communities."
The reason we have problems with the RESOLVED in this resolution is that we do not believe there has been nearly the kind of advancement and support for community safety, for individual safety, for the safety of individuals and their families in this province that the minister and the government would have us believe in this resolution and also in comments made both in and outside the Chamber by, most particularly, the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey).
I would like to spend some time going over specifically the government nine-point plan on youth crime, this nine-point plan that came out quite a while ago as a result of a workshop that was held with members of the community that came up with, I believe, 700 recommendations. The government, in its wisdom, distilled those several hundred recommendations into nine points.
Of course, no government can implement all recommendations from all of that nature, 300 or 400 or 500 or 600 or 700 recommendations. It would be impossible to logistically do that. But to distil that kind of recommendation down to nine points, many of which are very detailed and narrow in their focus, is something that we have said in this House in the past and repeat that this kind of plan does not begin to address the underlying issues that we have before us in the whole area of youth crime.
But that aside, Madam Speaker, just to deal with the nine points that the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) has spoken about so much, I would like to, as the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) has provided a report card on that nine-point plan, briefly go over those nine points.
The first promise, the first point, is a provincial council on youth crime. Now, none of these ideas are bad in and of themselves. It is just that we feel that they do not deal with the broad range of issues that should be dealt with in youth crime and they certainly in and of themselves have not been implemented.
There was a committee of experts that was to be appointed that I am assuming would make up this provincial council. This committee was never appointed, although the volunteer chair submitted names to the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) in 1994. Over one year ago the Minister of Justice got names for the provincial council on youth crime from the volunteer chair--[interjection] Well, the minister has asked me to check my dates, and I would be more than willing to check my dates, but I think that the important point to be made in this is that this point No. 1 in the nine-point plan on youth crime has not been implemented, a provincial council on youth crime. The minister and the government have talked time and time again about the importance of volunteers in dealing with youth crime, dealing with all of the issues that face us in the province of Manitoba and here they have made a pledge to implement a volunteer organization and they have not done it.
The second promise, an expanded mandate for the youth justice committees. According to the report card that we have put together, there has been no comprehensive action to empower the committees to develop antiviolence plans. Again, a wonderful idea that has not been given the resources or the ability to implement it. These promises were made well before this last election, a year and a half ago my honourable colleague the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackinstosh) says. Actually a year and a half ago is just about the time that there possibly might have been a provincial election campaign, but it would be inappropriate of me to say or to even intimate that there was any connection between the nine-point plan and a potential provincial election. I would never, ever do that. I would like the record to note that my tongue was firmly in cheek in that last statement.
Madam Speaker, the third promise was a youth advisory council. Again, another very good idea. We are dealing with youth crime. We would like to have the input of youth into something like this, a youth advisory council. There was a chair that was proposed who declined early last year, and as far as we know to date there has been no follow-up or appointments made for this youth advisory council.
An Honourable Member: Not yet?
Ms. Barrett: No, a year and a half after the original nine-point plan was put in place. We will wait and wait and wait.
The fourth of the nine points is a school violence prevention co-ordinator. Again, a wonderful idea, Madam Speaker. Schools are the one place in our province that virtually all children and youth attend, some more often than others. It is the one spot where there is access to children and to youth. What better idea than to have in place a school violence prevention co-ordinator. The schools are also the location of some major elements of violence in our society. Why can we not do something? Why should we not put in place one of these--
An Honourable Member: When was the appointment? When was the co-ordinator appointed?
Ms. Barrett: There has been a half-time person seconded for the entire province--one half-time person seconded, which means that this person's half-time position is taken away from another government role, but I am sorry to say, Madam Speaker, that not even that position, that seconded position, has been filled. Currently, there is no school violence prevention co-ordinator, half time, quarter time, full time, no time. There is no school violence prevention co-ordinator, another broken promise.
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The fifth promise urging changes to the Young Offenders Act--let me state here that we are not just here to be negative. We will say that the minister has taken a role in urging changes to the Young Offenders Act. So, yes, one out of five so far has begun to be implemented.
The sixth promise, a youth gang and violence line, again, an identification of a major part of the problem of youth violence, the problem of gangs, wonderful, there is a recognition there. What has happened? There is a telephone hot line. Is it staffed, Madam Speaker, by even a seconded one-half position? No, someone has information on street gangs, youth violence that relates to street gangs, it is an answering machine, no personal contact at all. Now, someone takes the initiative and someone takes, in many cases, probably, their safety in their hands to say that I have some information on street gangs. This is a very major step for an individual to take, and what kind of response do they have at the other end of that telephone line? It is a telephone message. There is no personal contact at all. No guarantee that any response is going to happen at all
The street gang unit, there is a street--
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Wellington, to continue debate.
Ms. Barrett: Madam Speaker, there is a street gang unit in the Winnipeg Police department. I know I have spoken with one of the high schools in my constituency, Daniel McIntyre Collegiate institute, and they have said that the street gang unit has been extremely helpful to them in dealing with problems in regard to youth violence and gang activity, so I would like to make that positive statement. However, this youth gang and violence line is not located in the offices of the street gang unit at the police department.
An Honourable Member: Yes, it is.
Ms. Barrett: Well, the minister says that it is located in the street gang unit at the police department. I stand corrected. So that is, again, the second part of the report card that has been fulfilled.
The seventh of the nine points was surveillance by Winnipeg Youth Crime Intervention Team. The action to date is, there is no promised team surveillance of gangs and high-risk offenders. Well, excuse me, but, if you are going to surveillance of youth crime to intervene, if you do not provide surveillance of gangs and high-risk offenders, then you do not have any surveillance, you have not implemented it at all. There have been half a dozen meetings of officials to discuss a possible mandate. Well, Madam Speaker, this is a year and a half ago that these recommendations came out. There have been nine of them, and this surveillance by the Winnipeg Youth Crime Intervention Team is still in the discussion stage, a year and a half later.
School violence prevention training, the eighth promise, again, another very good idea. Let us talk within our school setting to prevent violence in the school setting and perhaps that will have an impact in the larger community.
Well, Madam Speaker, this is the third of the nine that I can say there has been something done on, but it is not by any manner of means a complete yes as far as being fulfilled or in place. What has been done on a school violence prevention training is that there was a one-day workshop offered by the London Family Court. When one might ask was that workshop offered? It was offered in April 1994, almost a year and a half ago and there has been, as far as we know, no follow-up to that one-day workshop.
Anyone who knows the school system knows that you have new people coming on stream as teachers. You have new resources. You have change that takes place. Madam Speaker, a one-day workshop--and I would suggest that perhaps a one-day workshop was not enough to begin with--but even that one one-day workshop a year and a half ago has not been repeated. You cannot just do it once and assume that it will carry on. That is not a responsible response.
Finally, Madam Speaker, the ninth of the nine-point plan on youth crime is the boot camps. I would like to quote a couple of comments on this. One, we must view it as an empty gesture or facade--and this is from a detention counsellor, someone who works in this area all the time. Another quote, really there have been no substantive changes. This is from a youth lawyer. We have talked in this House a great deal about the boot camps so I will not go into it anymore. I know that my time is almost at an end.
I would just like to say, Madam Speaker, that I think it is very clear that the government has not followed through on their promise made a year and a half ago and their continued statements in this House and outside this House that they are dealing with youth violence. They have not, they have not, they have not and they show absolutely no inclination to move on any of the issues that are facing us, the enormous issues that are facing us in Manitoba when it deals with youth crime.
So this resolution brought forward I am sure in all good conscience by the member for Riel (Mr. Newman), we can support the two WHEREASES, but we cannot under any circumstances support the RESOLVED of this resolution because the people of Manitoba know that the government has not dealt in any way, shape or form with the issues surrounding youth crime and youth violence in our province. Thank you.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, I, too, join with my colleagues in congratulating the member for Riel for bringing forward a resolution of this kind. It allows us as members of this Chamber to have an opportunity to discuss the issue of crime and community, an issue of social injustice in general that exists in our society today.
One of the difficulties I have with the resolution is the fact that it goes on to congratulate the government for initiatives, and we certainly argue on this side of the House that most of the initiatives that this resolution goes on to congratulate the government on are only initiatives in name only and not initiatives in practice. That is unfortunate, Madam Speaker, because this resolution really does afford us an opportunity, and I think we should have an opportunity, to have a meaningful debate as to the serious issue facing our society in general.
Any member who has been out on the doorstep and all of us have, recently coming out of the provincial election, or any member who has recently been on the doorstep knows how pervasive and how deeply felt this issue is amongst the citizens of Manitoba. It certainly ranks within the top two or three issues that are mentioned by my constituents on a regular basis, and it is certainly something that all of us need to be concerned about. None of us should be smug about it; none of us should be self- righteous about it. We should actually be joining genuinely in this Chamber to try to do what we can to resolve this issue. It certainly is, it is a classic issue of something where we in this Chamber who are the lawmakers, I might add, Madam Speaker, ought to be spending time and energy devoted to discussing ideas relating to this fundamental issue which affects our society.
It goes much further than programs as was mentioned by the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh), and it goes much further than self-congratulatory press releases that have been put out. It goes to the essence of what we are in this community and what we are in our society. I dare say that some of the developments that have occurred in the society of Manitoba, in our urban centres, have resulted in, in many ways, a very dysfunctional approach and a very dysfunctioning and a breakdown of many of the basic values of our society that we have held so dear for the past 100 years. It goes beyond in some cases politics, and it goes beyond some of the rhetoric that we hear in this Chamber and I think fundamentally we have to look at.
The member for Riel (Mr. Newman) talked about values. I think we have to look at where we are going as a society, and how we are determining what our goals are and what our values are as a society, Madam Speaker. I think to a large extent we have lost a sense of direction, and as a result we are seeing a serious difficulty in our urban centre, serious difficulty in having functioning communities, serious difficulty in getting to those individuals and those members of the community who actually need the help and the support of all of us in the community in order to prevent crime but more importantly to prevent the social deficit that is occurring on a regular basis in our society. I need look no further than the community that I represent, the area of Kildonan. I need look no further than the fact that we have had difficulty putting together--
Madam Speaker: Order, please. When this matter is again before the House, the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) will have 11 minutes remaining.
The hour being 6 p.m., I am leaving the Chair with the understanding that this House will reconvene at 8 p.m. this evening.
Erratum
Volume XLV No. 31, Tuesday, September 19, 1995, on page 3068, first column, last paragraph, Mr. Mackintosh's comments should read: My question to the minister is, now at least six months after the legislation was passed out in this House . . . .