Tuesday, May 30, 1995

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Tuesday, May 30, 1995

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

PRAYERS

MATTER OF PRIVILEGE

First Minister's Comments

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, I rise on a matter of privilege.

I want to start off by saying how disappointed and hurt I was last evening by comments made by the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) in regard to myself. The First Minister made comments to the effect that I am a racist. From his seat, the First Minister very clearly told me that I was a racist. The First Minister went on to say that the people in The Pas say: You are a racist. That is how you deal with people--in a mean-spirited way.

Madam Speaker, these comments came about as a result of my response to the throne speech last evening. In my speech last evening, not once did I directly tell the First Minister that he was a racist. Throughout my speech I made reference to policies of his government regarding aboriginal people that in the view of many aboriginal people, including myself, believe to be racist.

Then I went on to list or substantiate my statement by talking about the kinds of programs and services, the kinds of legislation that the Premier and his government have enacted in this Legislature since I have been here, and that is nearly five years. I talked about programs that have been eliminated. For the most part, those programs are being run and administered by aboriginal people. He eliminated, I told him, funding for AMC, for MKO. He eliminated funding for the friendship centres.

I went on to explain to the House, Madam Speaker, that programs which are geared specifically for aboriginal people such as ACCESS, BUNTEP, New Careers have either been severely cut back or eliminated.

I also mentioned legislation like Bill 10. I made the assertion last evening, which I have done before in committee, telling the Premier (Mr. Filmon) that, in our view, Bill 10 was a back-way approach to attacking treaty and aboriginal rights. In committee, I had asked for an amendment to the legislation. It was not able to go through.

I said last evening that I could go on and on. I mentioned the AJI--293 recommendations, 101 of which do not need federal government authority. One hundred and one recommendations of the AJI are strictly provincial. The provincial government could have gone ahead and implemented some, if not all, of the 101 recommendations in the AJI. I mentioned a whole host of other programs which, in our view, reflect the attitude of the Premier and his government, Madam Speaker.

Now when the Premier got up to make his speech, he, of course, went on to talk about his trips into northern Manitoba when he was younger and then started to attack me, not only me personally, but I think the Premier has attacked also the people of The Pas.

The Premier knows very well that when I was chief of The Pas Band, and I was chief there for nearly six years, I worked very hard with the town of The Pas, the mayor and council. As a matter of fact, the former mayor, Bruce Unfried, and I took great pride in the way that we tried to work together in bringing the communities together.

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When the AJI hearings were being held in The Pas, Madam Speaker, I always took precautionary measures in my dealings with the press that we do not overdo it, that we do not cross the line. In other words, what I tried to do in my dealings with the press then was that I tried to create balance between the two communities, and that was a difficult job.

I want to conclude by saying that the Premier not only attacked me personally but he also attacked all aboriginal people. He attacked the citizens of the town of The Pas, because he said that the town of The Pas says: You are a racist. That is how you treat people in a mean-spirited way.

Madam Speaker, as I said, I can handle a lot of things but when I have to listen to the Premier belittling me, calling me a racist, trying to turn things around--he first blames aboriginal people for coming into the city and creating havoc with his child poverty statistics--and then he goes on, when I ask questions, to call me a racist. I have been here four and a half years. I do not know all the rules and regulations, but I think those comments made by the Premier were unparliamentary, uncalled for and I believe that the First Minister should be made accountable for making such irresponsible comments in this Chamber.

Therefore, I move, seconded by the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), that the member for Tuxedo (Mr. Filmon) be asked to withdraw his comments concerning myself made yesterday in the House and that he apologize as well. Thank you.

Motion presented.

Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, the question of privilege in this House is one that is very serious in nature and one which all members ought to take very, very seriously. It ought not to be raised very often because it is so serious and because the individual privileges of members are sacred to the parliamentary process.

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The question, of course, that is being raised by the member for The Pas has to be raised at the earliest opportunity. A prima facie case has to be made with respect to the whole question of whether or not his privileges have been impugned in the manner suggested.

Madam Speaker, first of all, I think we have a question related to the matter of the prima facie case. First of all, we do not have Hansard from last evening with which to peruse other members on that side or members on this side to determine what at least Hansard heard and reported on, so that makes it extremely difficult and perhaps needs to be taken into consideration. Secondly, I think what we have here is a question of unparliamentary language as opposed to a matter of privilege.

The matter, Madam Speaker, as Beauchesne 485(1) says: Unparliamentary words may be brought to the attention of the House. When the question is raised by a member, it must be on a point of order not as a question of privilege.

Secondly, Beauchesne 485(2) says: "Except during the Question Period, the proper time to raise such a point of order is when the words are used and not afterwards."

Now that is exactly what happened. At the time that the alleged words were spoken, the question was raised as a point of order, I believe, by the opposition House leader. At that time, you took that matter under advisement and said you would peruse Hansard and report back to the House. That matter, I presume, has not yet occurred because Hansard is not yet available. So rather than a question of privilege here, albeit the member may well be offended, I do not think his privileges or rights as a member of the House have been impugned, but rather that perhaps certain words, parliamentary or otherwise, were used last evening in the debate. We do not know that; we have to peruse Hansard in order to determine if that is the case.

But I submit, Madam Speaker, that we have a case here of order as opposed to privilege. The fact that it was raised at the time and that you did take it under advisement--and we will deal with the matter in an appropriate period of time--is the case and not a case of privilege.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I wish to rise and speak to the motion of privilege that has been put forward by the member for The Pas.

The member for The Pas, of course, is raising an issue today of what he alleges to be privilege on the basis of a debate that took place last evening. A debate which he initiated by virtue of numerous occasions during a diatribe of some 20 minutes, he made the statement that he objected to the racist policies of this Premier and this government. As supposed evidence of those racist policies, he raised, for instance, the issue that he has now repeated, of a withdrawal of funding to MKO, the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs and the Indian and Metis Friendship Centres, three aboriginal organizations.

What he did not say was that at the time that funding was withdrawn from those three organizations, funding was withdrawn from more than 50 agencies and organizations, which were primarily advocacy organizations. It was a policy decision of this government to remove funding from all primarily advocacy organizations. They happen to be three of more than 50 organizations that were affected. In no way was that a racist policy or a discriminatory policy.

He went on to repeat the allegation about this Premier and this government being accused of implementing racist policies-- again, as he has said today--by virtue of what he said was cutbacks in funding to ACCESS, BUNTEP and New Careers. What he did not say was that, as part of the overall attempts to restrain the expenditures of this government, they were treated, as were literally dozens and dozens and hundreds of aspects of government expenditure, as this government, during that particular budget year, during consecutive budget years, had to reduce its overall expenditures in all of the areas of government, including health, education and social services over periods and in specific areas.

It was not racist, but it was in fact fiscal policy of the government of Manitoba, and the Estimates will demonstrate that there were numerous areas of government in which expenditures were reduced.

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Madam Speaker, as I have said on many occasions, the expenditures of my department of Executive Council were less in 1994-95 than they were in 1988 in the last budget of the policy of the Pawley administration. There were reductions in funding throughout government, not a racist policy, not a discriminatory policy.

The charge of racist policies is not one to be made lightly. Yet this member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) rose in the House and willingly and knowingly made those charges time and time again throughout the remarks that he made last evening. Indeed, it is that kind of behaviour and it is that kind of attitude that I believe does not have any place in this Chamber. Indeed, if I am to be accused of saying--what I did say, which was that people in The Pas made the same allegations with respect to the member for The Pas, then, Madam Speaker, if this is out of order then it is out of order on both sides of the House and by all members of the House regardless of their own personal circumstances, regardless of their race or colour or religious background or whatever they represent in this House.

The rules of the House apply equally to all members of the House and the privileges of the House apply equally to all members of the House. If this member for The Pas wants to be able to be treated as an equal, then he ought to treat others as equals and not make the kind of discriminatory, inflammatory and irresponsible allegations that he made in this House last evening, because the fact of the matter is that this government has worked and has worked closely, as I said on numerous occasions last evening, with him, with the people of the North, with people of all backgrounds.

In fact, I was privileged to be able to work closely with the member for The Pas when he was chief of The Pas Indian band at that First Nations band at that time in the evolution and development of the northern and native nursing baccalaureate program. I stood on the same forum as he as he complimented me and our government for those initiatives.

I take very seriously his allegations, and I suggest that he ought to take seriously his own words as he looks for comfort in this circumstance.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): This is not the first time we have had a matter of privilege raised regarding comments made by members of this House. I do not believe we are dealing here with strictly a matter of unparliamentary language.

To stand up in this House, for any member to accuse any other member--we are not talking about policies here. We are talking about the First Minister, of all people, saying to a member of this House that he is a racist. That was the direct comment. He said that people in The Pas were saying he was dealing in a racist manner with issues. I have never seen anything of that nature in the entire 13 years I have been in this House.

When a member, in 1989, had accused another member of being a disgrace--this is a direct quote--to your community, the member who made that comment withdrew that prior to Speaker Rocan having to make a decision, and the Premier had that opportunity now to deal with the matter raised, the matter of privilege, which were the comments that were made by the Premier last night.

I want to establish why it is not strictly a question of language, Madam Speaker, unparliamentary language. If one looks at what privilege entails, one of the key elements of privilege is the member's capacity to serve the people who have chosen him as their representative.

The people of The Pas have chosen the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) as their representative, and I have sat with him for four and a half years, and I have seen him speak out for each and every one of his constituents. No one can say that he has not done so. The fact that the people of The Pas supported him again--just over one month ago was clear evidence of that.

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Privilege does include charges made against members, reflections made against members, and, you know, Madam Speaker, there is a long history of matters of privilege that have been raised often with comments that were not even made in this House, often in the media, but, you know, in researching this today, I was not able to find one similar charge by any member made against any other member of the House, not only in the time I have been in this House, but researching back into the last century, because the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) not only said, you are a racist, he accused the member of dealing with issues in a racist manner. What I thought was perhaps the most unfortunate use of phrase--and I could use other words, but I will leave it at that, was when he talked about people in The Pas saying that is the way the member raises issues.

You know, Madam Speaker, I have had the privilege to represent a northern community for 13 years. I represent First Nations people, Metis people, nonaboriginal people, and you know what? I have heard the racism, and, by the way, it is not racism that is directed towards myself as a nonaboriginal member. Never once in representing seven aboriginal communities and many aboriginal constituents in Thompson, not once have I had anyone, any aboriginal person, make one comment towards me of any racist nature.

Madam Speaker, I have heard it all too many times, and believe you me, it is often targeted towards aboriginal people. I know the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) did not say this in this House, but I think he can speak from personal experience about the reality of being on the receiving end of racism. I can think of nothing more offensive to any aboriginal person sitting in this Chamber than to have another member, let alone the First Minister (Mr. Filmon), accuse that member of being a racist.

I sat here yesterday, Madam Speaker. I heard the member for The Pas do what he is elected to do, which is to critique the policies of this government. He spoke out on behalf of his constituents who have very great concerns about the policies. As was the case in the House last year when there was clear precedent--[interjection]

Well, the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) talked about immigration policies, and there was a ruling from the Speaker that clearly this was not a reference to an individual member. It was made very clear. It was a description of a policy.

But do you know what I find perhaps the most disturbing here is we have--[interjection] Well, and to the Premier, I would hope that for once he would just listen. He had his chance to speak and to withdraw those comments, but if he would just listen for once.

We are all honourable members. The First Minister had the opportunity from his feet to do the honourable thing. The honourable thing is to withdraw the comments, some of the most offensive comments I have heard made in this Chamber.

I say to the Premier that if he believes that the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) is only speaking from his own personal perspective, I would suggest he talk to not only the many people who have talked about the issues that were raised but even to perhaps some of the people whom I am sure watching this today will be looking at whether there is not a growing gap in this province, a growing gap that he as Premier perhaps should do the honourable thing and attempt to bridge, because I hear from many First Nations people the alienation. It is not just from a government, the current government of the day, but it is a growing alienation, a growing sense of frustration at the poverty, at the fact of being ignored, and indeed, in many cases, and let us be up front about this, about racism, because it is a fact.

I say to the Premier, the honourable thing to do is two-fold. One is, on this very specific incident, to do what I think any member of this House would do, and apologize, but perhaps to take it as a lesson that we all in Manitoba I think have to do a lot to bridge the growing gap that is occurring out there that the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) so eloquently spoke about last night.

I ask the Premier to withdraw his comments, Madam Speaker.

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Madam Speaker: Order, please. A matter of privilege is indeed a very serious concern. I am going to take this matter under advisement to consult with the authorities, and I will report back to the House with a ruling.

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

TABLING OF REPORTS

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I would like to table the Supplementary Estimates for the Department of Natural Resources for the year 1995-96.

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for the Department of Health 1995-96 departmental expenditure Estimates.

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, I would like to also table the Supplementary Estimates for the Department of Highways and Transportation for the '95-96 Estimates review process.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): I, as well, would like to table the Supplementary Estimates for the Department of Finance 1995-96.

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): I would like to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for 1995-96 for the Manitoba Seniors Directorate.

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): I would like to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for the Department of Education for the 1995-96 departmental expenditure Estimates.

Introduction of Guests

Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to direct members' attention to the Speaker's Gallery firstly, where we have with us this afternoon His Excellency Annan Arkyin Cato, High Commissioner for Ghana.

Also with us this afternoon, seated in the public gallery to my right, we have fifty-eight Grade 5 students from Dr. D.W. Penner School. These students are under the direction of Mrs. Pat Brolund and Mr. Larry Schroeder. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Speaker of the Legislative Assembly.

Also in the public gallery this afternoon, to my left, we have from Ryerson Elementary School sixty-five Grade 5 students under the direction of Mrs. Marjorie Trenholm. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

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