Home Care Program
Privatization
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My question is for the Acting Premier.
Madam Speaker, 30,000 petitions were received today by people across our communities urging the government to reconsider their ideological position on privatizing home care and asking the government to keep home care as a nonprofit program. This follows on letters the government has received that we tabled last week to the government asking the government not to proceed with the privatization of home care.
In fact, the Manitoba seniors say they have very serious concerns about it. In their newsletter this week, they talk about the fact that home care is working well as a nonprofit entity in the province. They further say in their letter that they are going to resubmit material to the government and ask the government whether they will put their ideological decision to privatize on hold until the Manitoba seniors and other recipients that rely on home care can respond to the government so that we can have an open debate about the merits of the government’s decision.
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, if ideology guides decisions around here, it is decisions taken on the other side of the House when it comes to lack of support for clients in the home care system, lack of support for patients in our hospitals from honourable members opposite.
I refer not only to the patients and clients of today but those of the future. Honourable members opposite, their ideology, the blinkers that they put on do blur their vision very badly when it comes to looking ahead to the future.
The honourable Leader of the Opposition suggests that home care is working well and it is hard in a general sense to disagree, but there are some very specific problems with the way our home care system has been run and they have been brought to our attention by honourable members opposite.
It is in this area where I remind them they cannot have it both ways. They cannot conjure up all of these problems that we have with our home care system and then be critical when we try to fix those problems.
Mr. Doer: We are aware of a proposal from the McMaster family that owns the We Care home care program, and the minister is aware of this company and this family that has proposed changes to privatize the home care system here in Manitoba.
Madam Speaker, the last independent report conducted on home care was the Price Waterhouse program. It indicates that the program is cost-effective, and in fact it goes on to say that it is the best continuing care program in all of North America.
I would like to ask the Premier, does he have another independent study besides the McMaster proposal that would indicate that Manitobans would be better served by proceeding to privatize a system right now that is publicly run, publicly owned and publicly managed?
Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, it is difficult to engage in a discussion about home care in Manitoba with the Leader of the Opposition or the Health critic for the New Democratic Party, the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), when they fail to acknowledge that spending in home care has increased so substantially in the last eight years. They argue that no additional services have been laid on so, therefore, where is the cost-efficiency if all of those dollars that are recorded in our budget documents year after year and expenditures made--if all of that has happened and there is no increase or no improvement in the service, then honourable members, the onus is then upon them to demonstrate that the argument they make is correct, which is quite impossible for them to do because they fail to acknowledge these very, very significant expenditure increases.
I put on the record last week the number of units of service that have been added to the service over the years, from $4 million on an annual basis back in 1988 to $5.5 million today, the fact that we had some 24,000 clients back in those days and 26,000 today.
Well, if we are not serving enough new clients, it is because there are not more clients to be served. But, Madam Speaker, there will be very, very significantly more, and there have been incremental increases in the number of clients served as well.
Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, the minister did not answer the question about putting the decision on hold to listen to the submissions that would be forthcoming from the Manitoba seniors society. He never answered the question of whether he has an independent report that Manitobans could review to study his decision.
Members of the Legislative Assembly
Wage Freeze
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon) a further question.
How in this House, how in this Legislature, how can MLAs in this House take an increase in pay for the MLA’s salary and cabinet minister’s salary and Leader of the Opposition's salary at a time when the government is proposing close to a 30 percent wage cut for people working now in home care? How can we in all conscience do this?
Should not the Premier (Mr. Filmon) propose a wage freeze for all MLAs and cabinet ministers, as proposed by our House leader a couple of weeks ago?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the honourable Leader of the Opposition continuously fails to recognize some realities that we are working with in the present environment, and one of those realities is that the demand on the Home Care program will continue to increase very, very significantly as we address the inappropriate use of acute care in our hospitals and as we address the issues that will arise with a population that will continue to age. The honourable member should be aware that what we want to achieve is something that will be affordable and cost-effective, that we can provide more services to more people.
The honourable Leader of the Opposition does not have to look ahead to the future, because he is not going to be on this side of the House ever. He does not have to deal with that, but the honourable members on this side of the House have to look beyond the ends of our noses.
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Mr. Doer: I have a new question, and perhaps we should treat our nose the same way as we are expecting to treat other people's noses if we are talking about providing leadership.
Health Care System
Advertising Campaign
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my new question is to the Premier (Mr. Filmon). We have been informed that the government is proceeding with a massive advertising campaign in health care, that the campaign will be costing over a million dollars. It will include four TV ads and a direct mail to every home in the province.
I would like the Premier to confirm whether his government is proceeding with a major advertising campaign dealing with health care and how much is it going to cost.
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I do not know how many times the honourable member has been involved in discussions like I have, but I have been told many, many times that if there is any perceived problem with respect to home care it is the fact that we do not have everyone in the province of Manitoba being aware of what the issues are, everybody in the province of Manitoba being aware of what the challenges are that we face, Manitobans not aware that we are working with diminished resources in our province.
I have made no secret for some months now that I fully intend to include the people of Manitoba in the discussions. I fully intend to keep Manitobans informed the best way I know how. Indeed, if there has been criticism, it has been that there has not been enough public information distributed to Manitobans, and that will be happening.
Mr. Doer: How can the Premier (Mr. Filmon) justify spending close to a million and a half dollars on Tory feel-good propaganda ads on health care that will be paid for presumably by the taxpayers? I cannot imagine why the Tory party would not be paying for these ads.
How can the Premier justify this propaganda campaign that they are embarking on run by Barb Biggar and many other communications staff of the government at a time when they are cutting home care, they are cutting Pharmacare, they are cutting acute care hospital care?
How can he justify the priority of having propaganda campaigns paid for by the taxpayers for the good health of the Tory party rather than the good health of Manitobans?
Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, for the honourable Leader of the Opposition and his friends everything that gets done is a partisan thing. I happen to know from talking to Manitobans of all political persuasions that health is a matter that transcends all political persuasions. We all care about our own health and we all care about the health of our fellow Manitobans. So, if the honourable member wants to make something political that is not, let him go right ahead. The people of Manitoba just want to know what is going on and I think they are entitled to know what is going on.
Mr. Doer: Can the Premier confirm that the ads will be on nurse-managed care, day hospital programs, laser surgery and breast screening programs and will not be educational ads on issues that are changing and being cut back like Pharmacare and home care and acute care hospital beds at Seven Oaks and Misericordia, that it will not be dealing with the needs of the public to have public education on the Tory cutbacks, it will be merely a propaganda campaign for the Filmon government?
Will the Premier admit today that these ads should be paid for by the Progressive Conservative Party of Manitoba and not by the taxpayers of this province?
Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, what I can confirm is the hypocrisy of the Leader of the Opposition, because I recall as a member of this Legislature how during the years of the Pawley-Doer government here in this province they spent millions of dollars on advertising the Jobs Fund and in fact had one campaign which was just simply to publicize Limestone for their re-election in 1986, where they spent $3 million on that campaign alone.
That is the hypocrisy of the people like the Leader of the Opposition, and Manitobans know about his hypocrisy and they know where he is coming from on issues like this.
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Health Care System
Advertising Campaign
Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier.
How can the Premier justify spending $1.5 million of Manitoba taxpayers’ money when you do not have money for Pharmacare, when you are closing hospitals, when you say that money cannot be used for eye examinations and you are using it for Tory party propaganda in order to talk about the feel-good Conservatives?
How can the Premier justify that in light of these cutbacks to our health care system?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, there are people who hear news, for example, about the Pharmacare program and changes in that program and they ask themselves, well, now, why is this necessary?
If you listen to the honourable member for Kildonan and his Leader, the member for Concordia, those people are not going to get the answer from honourable members opposite because by their own admission as demonstrated in their questions, everything they do is political. So they are not going to get a straight answer from honourable members opposite.
The people of Manitoba need to know that there are opportunities here in addition to challenges, and we look for their partnership. It is an effort to ensure that Manitobans are at least informed about the changes, informed about the facts as we have them today and the need for change, the danger that we face if we do not change, the fact that they will have no health care system to pass on to their children.
If we listen to honourable members opposite that is where we would be. We cannot abide that, and we need the people of Manitoba to know what is going on in health care.
Mr. Chomiak: My supplementary is to the Premier.
Can the Premier confirm how it is that this health expert, Barb Biggar, the Premier’s former press secretary, the person who did all of the Tory campaign ads, is the person who has prepared and headed up all this entire advertising campaign? Why is it that Barb Biggar, the Premier’s former press secretary, is heading up this campaign? [interjection]
Mr. McCrae: I guess “fraudulent” is a new word for honourable members opposite, and they have decided to use it as often as they can remember to do so.
Madam Speaker, there was a proposal call with respect to this particular contract. The vendor who achieved the contract achieved the contract because they met the criteria. That vendor was appropriate and the bids were appropriately evaluated, and the decision was made as a result of that.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, will the Premier undertake today that the province will not spend the $1.5 million, will not produce these TV ads by Barb Biggar, will not mail out to the householder, will bring the information to the Legislature and have an all-party committee of the Legislature review this information prior to distribution so that it does not become anything more than Tory propaganda which has been launched by the very person that ran the Tory campaign in the last campaign?
Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I keep listening to honourable members opposite in a sincere wish that they might offer some help, and I cannot remember the last time they did, but I am sure they have some useful suggestions to make along the way.
The trouble is, their agenda, as just admitted by them just a few minutes ago, has nothing to do with people’s health. It has to do with their own political future, their own partisan approach to things, and so that is where they are coming from. Their partisan approach could not be demonstrated better than their condonation of people who go around telling senior citizens in Manitoba things that are incorrect with respect to home care such as that, with the changes that we are embarking on, there would be user fees or that there would be changes to the core services that are delivered under the Home Care program.
If I waited for honourable members opposite to inform the public, there would be, indeed, what they have suggested on occasion--chaos.
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Pharmacare
Income Statement--Student Loans
Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health.
The government has now released what the Premier (Mr. Filmon) calls its new, improved Pharmacare application form which enables some benefits based on this government’s definition of income.
My question to the minister is, where an applicant has no tax return or where income changes more than 10 percent in a year, why are student loans considered as income, not mortgage loans, not personal loans, for example, even from parents to children?
Why take Pharmacare away from the neediest students while turning a blind eye, for example, to inheritances, to lottery winners?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, as I outlined to honourable members opposite last week, every effort was expended during the process to develop the new Pharmacare program to ensure that those who need help the most get the most help and that it is available for them.
With respect to how these forms work and how income is arrived at, I am sure we can discuss that during the Estimates process or, if it is important for the honourable member to know sooner, he can raise that question with me privately and we will get the response for him.
Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister just tell Manitobans who need to know now, is including student loans as income just meanness or is it incompetence? A constituent was told by an official of Pharmacare last week that it was in fact just a big mistake.
Is this minister going to get it right maybe on the third time?
Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, as I told the honourable member, the intent as we developed our new Pharmacare program was to provide the most protection for those least able to provide it for themselves, those who need the most drugs, those who have the lowest incomes.
What is included in a calculation of income is what is included in a calculation of income, and I can look at the specific case the honourable member is referring to and discuss it further with him.
Income Statement--Information Release
Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Would the minister then explain why applicants for Pharmacare must consent to the release of information from federal income tax if they are going to receive any benefits, without so much as anything in these new regulations to protect that information from other uses by whether it is his department or other departments of this government or indeed pharmacists?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the honourable member I think understands what the concept of income-based assistance is all about and why it is necessary to have an income from which you can calculate what your deductible is going to be.
Surely the honourable member understands that.
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Home Care Program
Privatization--Tender Process
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.
Earlier today both the Leader of the New Democratic Party and I were provided in excess of 30,000 signatures on a petition that opposes this government’s general direction on home care services, and I would like to table the ones that were presented to me, Madam Speaker, for the Minister of Health.
My question to the Minister of Health is, as of today there has not yet been an issue of tender for these private companies, nonprofit organizations such as VON to participate in what the government plans on implementing effective July 1.
My question quite simply is, when does this government plan on issuing the tendering to ensure that companies will have the criteria to be able to make a submission?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, that will be happening soon, but I remind the honourable member that tenders were let last year with respect to back-up services for our Home Care program and a number of vendors bid on that and the Central Health Services company achieved the contract to provide back-up services in an effort to be able to provide services on a 24-hour-a-day, seven-day-a-week basis.
I remind the honourable member also that tenders were let recently by the St. Boniface General Hospital for the expansion of their home intravenous therapy program. In that case, bids were received as well and in that case the Victorian Order of Nurses was the successful bidder.
So as I say to the honourable member, I expect shortly to see these tenders going out, but it has been done before and so far it appears the results have been beneficial, Madam Speaker.
Mr. Lamoureux: I talked to the Victorian Order of Nurses earlier today, and my question to the Minister of Health is, when is this minister prepared to give a commitment that the process is in fact going to be started in terms of the criteria released so that people know what the core package that this government constantly talks about is?
No one appears to know what the core services are. When can we see those criteria?
Mr. McCrae: I have spoken with the Victorian Order of Nurses, too, about these matters and others, Madam Speaker, and surely the honourable member is not suggesting that one vendor ought to be given some advantage over the others. I hope that is not what he is suggesting.
Strike Contingency Plan
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I am wondering if the Minister of Health can tell us what contingency plan he has if in fact there is a strike by home care service workers.
Does this then mean, for example, that we are going to see more individuals in our health care institutions such as hospitals?
What is the contingency plan of this government, or does it really have a contingency plan for the clients that rely on home care services?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): It would be my profound wish that a contingency plan would not be required. It would be my profound wish that people who provide services to their fellow citizens in Manitoba would not withdraw their services from them. That seems to me the appropriate course for the honourable member to be advocating and for honourable members in the New Democratic Party to be advocating instead of condoning such things as withdrawing services from people who require them, people who need help with their most personal of personal matters in their day-to-day life.
Honourable members opposite would condone the taking of a strike vote with regard to withdrawing services from people in those circumstances. I certainly have a problem with that. If that is where honourable members are coming from, let there be no secret about whom they are working for around here, whether it comes to their union boss friends or the clients in the home care system. Let us be clear about that.
But, unfortunately, yes, we do have a contingency plan should it be necessary.
Repap Manitoba Inc.
Environmental Licensing
Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): My first question is for the Minister of Environment.
Since 1992, Repap has been permitted to harvest millions of hectares of trees without the required environmental impact statements and public hearings. Although we welcome the jobs Repap provides, there is concern that the environment may be placed at risk because licences are routinely rubber-stamped.
Can the minister tell the House which year Repap will be required to fulfill the conditions of The Environment Act?
Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, I recognize the sincerity with which the member asks the question, but he represents a party that allowed this harvesting to continue in the North for 15 years without environmental review. Now he is wondering when we are going to get on with the job.
The fact is, it has been done yearly, and their full, long-term plan will be reviewed shortly.
Treaty Land Entitlements
Negotiations
Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): My supplementary question is to the Minister of Northern Affairs.
Given that this government gave Repap cutting rights to areas under treaty land entitlement and these concerns were raised as far back as May 1989, why has this government still not acted to resolve outstanding TLE issues in these cutting areas?
Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): I think it is important for the honourable member for Flin Flon to recall that the provincial obligation is to provide unoccupied land. There has never been an obligation on the part of the province to set aside specific land.
We have in fact some time ago offered to the treaty land entitlement chiefs interim protection zones to do just that. None of those were acted upon.
I am pleased to tell the honourable member negotiations in TLE have made some progress in the last while. We are confident that a process will be in place very shortly to deal with these specific areas, but at no time in the specific area that we have seen discussion with has a specific land been requested within that general area.
Mr. Jennissen: My final supplementary question to the same minister is, what role is this government playing in negotiations between Mathias Colomb First Nation and Repap over disputed areas right now?
Mr. Praznik: First of all, let us understand that there is not specifically a specific disputed area. The company Repap is operating under valid licence. That obviously has been dealt with to some degree by the courts recently. One has to appreciate that the amount of land in which Mathias Colomb is entitled is a very small area in a very large area in which there are many cutting areas.
We have certain lands that Mathias Colomb has requested, specific land selections. We had some discussion on those. Two of them in fact we have agreed to and have been prepared to transfer to the federal government. I think the answer in this specific case and one that we are attempting to facilitate--and I am pleased to indicate that there will be some discussions beginning tomorrow specifically with the band and the province--is for that community to get on and select specifically in that area the land that they are interested in and negotiate a fair selection to which everyone can agree.
To date in that area Mathias Colomb has not done that. They have done it in other parts of their treaty area. I am confident that if people are of good will, this can be settled in a reasonable fashion in a very reasonable period of time.
Sustainable Development Act
White Paper Release
Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Environment.
Madam Speaker, whether it is Louisiana-Pacific’s environmental review fiasco or the $20 million lost by this government in the failed attempt to develop a hazardous waste management system in this province, Manitobans have very good reasons not to trust this government when it comes to economic and environmental sustainability. Concerns have been raised that the government’s proposed sustainable development act will not adequately protect Manitoba’s environment.
My question is, if this government is indeed sincere about openness and accountability, which it claims that it is to the public of this province, will the minister release a white paper on the proposed sustainable development act in order to allow all Manitobans input on this very important piece of legislation?
Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Yes.
Mr. Dewar: I want to thank the minister for that quick response to our question.
Madam Speaker, my next question for the minister: Will he provide to the House a timetable for the release of this white paper?
Mr. Cummings: Yes.
Child and Family Services Act
Amendments
Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, too many children have died in the care of a Child and Family Services agency in Manitoba recently and too many died after recently being in the care of an agency, requiring the Chief Medical Examiner to write a report with recommendations to the Minister of Family Services.
My question to the Minister of Family Services is, will she amend The Fatality Inquiries Act and The Child and Family Services Act so that these recommendations will be made public, so that the public interest will be protected and particularly the lives of children will be protected, so that we will know what recommendations are made and so that future deaths do not occur?
Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I do thank my honourable friend for that question, because it does provide me with the opportunity to indicate that we take very seriously the death of any child in the province of Manitoba, particularly when those children are in the care of the province as a result of an apprehension for reasons of abuse or neglect in their own families. I take very seriously the question, the comments that have been made by my honourable friend.
We are in the process of undertaking a comprehensive review of The Child and Family Services Act, and that will be one question that we put to the public of Manitoba for their consideration. I do want to indicate also that in the manner that the reports are presented to government and to the ministry, at this point in time there is sometimes confidential information that cannot be released. We are presently looking at how we can pull out the information that could be made public, to make it public to all Manitobans.
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Mr. Martindale: Will the Minister of Family Services amend the legislation since she knows that the reports could be made public with confidential information such as names left out and that this is a recommendation of the Children’s Advocate, who was set up to provide independent advice to the minister? Will she now take that advice?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, again, I thank my honourable friend for that question.
We do take very seriously the recommendations that have been made by the Children’s Advocate. In fact, it was our legislation that put in place a Child Advocate for all children in the province of Manitoba. Those recommendations have been put forward, and I have indicated quite clearly that we will be going out to the public with a comprehensive review of The Child and Family Services Act and the specific question that he is asking today will be addressed through that process.
Petroleum Exploration Assistance Program
Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Energy and Mines.
The recently announced Petroleum Exploration Assistance Program will be handing over a million dollars in a program that the oil industry spokespersons admit is virtually unknown these days.
My question to the Minister of Energy and Mines is, will the minister explain to this House and to Manitobans how a million-dollar giveaway to the oil industry can be justified when essential services such as home care, Pharmacare and eye examinations are being cut?
Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Energy and Mines): Madam Speaker, first of all, I would like to thank the member for St. James for her public comments in support of a very similar program in the mining industry which she offered. I imagine the same logic holds true there if she is making the argument against one program in petroleum, while on the one hand in supporting the other in minerals. It does beg the question as to where actually she sits in policy.
But the member should be very well aware that one of the difficulties we have with our oil patch is that we are in essence at the end of the Williston basin and that in order to kind of attract the development that we want to see, this incentive program was one that was viewed as a method of getting that kind of exploration activity.
As the member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Downey) pointed out to me the other day, because of this program we have activity in a number of areas of the southwest that we otherwise would not have. I can tell the member, last year, just for example, in our oil leases, we brought in some $2.6 million, if memory serves me correctly, and we had only budgeted for $600,000. So we are getting a very good return on this investment, and that is needed to support the social programs of the province.
Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, if the minister has time, I will explain to him the difference between mineral exploration and oil exploration.
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for St. James was recognized for a supplementary question.
Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, my question to the minister is, can he explain to us the basis for this so-called investment and how it was derived, given that he has eliminated the whole energy policy section of the Department of Energy and Mines? Is this decision based on this tabloid where the long-dead prophet Edgar Cayce predicts that Manitoba will discover a huge oil field this year?
Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I hate to answer a question with a question, but it leaves me--given the member bringing this forward, it sounds to me like that was the tabloid in which Mr. Pawley as Premier of this province set up the Manitoba Oil and Gas Corporation, which was supposed to bring millions of dollars of investment and, quite frankly, ended up in a very significant loss to the taxpayers of this province.
That point underlines a very different approach. The New Democrats in power had Manitoba Mineral Resources that year after year spent money on exploration and never produced one mine in the province, and we had ManOil which was a small corporation that only consumed taxpayers’ dollars.
In both situations, they were disasters for those industries, and we as a government are now in the process of rebuilding both the mining industry and the petroleum industry in this province and will continue to do so, Madam Speaker.
Provincial Parks
Seasonal Camping Fees
Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Natural Resources.
Last week’s budget falsely bragged of no tax increases while this government has increased seasonal camping fees in every provincial park in the province.
How can this minister justify gouging Manitobans with, in some cases, almost 100 percent increases in seasonal camping fees?
Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Yes, there are increases that we have announced for this year for seasonal campsites as well as for the nightly campsites. There have been no increases since 1989.
In doing our assessment in terms of trying to provide better service for our campers throughout the province, we have adjusted the rates, which had not been increased, and basically adjusted the rates on a formula. Where people have showers and cold and hot running water, things of this nature, they will be paying more. Where we had a standard rate before we now have differential rates, and in some cases, there is a substantive increase.
We hope that the people by and large will not find it too difficult to do that. I have discussed this before.
The cost per night basically worked out to an average of between $2.29 a night up to $4.58 including GST. That would be amortized over the usage of 30 nights, so it is a good deal.
Mr. Struthers: The services did not correspond with the increases in the seasonal fees.
Can the minister explain, in this new spirit of Tory openness that this government boasts about, why he surprised seasonal campers with this announcement? Why did he not seek their input before announcing this drastic tax grab?
Mr. Driedger: I do not think it was the intention of myself or the department to surprise anybody with the increase, but there is increase.
Madam Speaker, I do not want to repeat my answer that I gave before, but I just want to say that I think that the majority of Manitobans who enjoy the outdoors, as I do myself, will find that anywhere from $2.50 to $4.50 a night to camp out there on a site--which basically where we maintain the total park--is not unreasonable.
Madam Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired.