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CULTURE, HERITAGE AND CITIZENSHIP

Mr. Chairperson (Jack Penner): Will the committee come to order.

The honourable member for Point Douglas, to continue his opening statements as we left off on Thursday.

Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): Mr. Chair, when I left off, I was talking about the immigration into Canada, and I was making reference to some of the statements made by a couple of members of Parliament. I strongly feel that could do a lot of damage to the possibility of our whole immigration program of people taking a different view of Canada as a friendly place to live. So I was referring, and I had mentioned at that time, and I would like to re-emphasize that I hope that our minister in Manitoba had written a letter or made some form of communication contact with Bob Ringma and David Chatters and Preston Manning and the Reform Party.

When we talk about immigration from other countries I really feel that we have to look at the whole family class. When we look at our own families and our families that are here in Canada, and we look at new citizens that come to Canada and have a difficult time, now anyway, have a real difficult time of bringing their families over from their initial country, I do not think that helps portray us as friendly Canada.

When I say that, all I have to do is just go back to when I was growing up as a youth and I remember, and I am sure we all have these kinds of memories, where at one time or another our grandparents gave us some very good, sound advice and taught us many, many things that today make us who we are and I am sure that we value very much. So when a person comes from another country to make Canada their home, I feel that they should have the right, and they should have the opportunity to bring their extended families because without family it is very lonely, and I do not think that it is right.

I was really pleased when the minister had mentioned that he was involved in negotiating immigration policies, Manitoba with the federal government, and I hope in those negotiations that he asked the federal Liberal government to rescind their awful head tax and the incredible immigration fees that are charged to individuals that want to make Canada their new home. You look at the exorbitant cost, and I have heard from many, many people that said that the costs are so high that it really, in some cases, is next to impossible to bring family members or other people to move to Canada because, like I mentioned earlier, Canada was really built on immigration.

The other thing, with those fees and the head tax that are imposed, what happens to poorer regions of the world that might see the golden opportunity to advance in their careers, in their lives, and they choose Canada as their new home? What happens to those individuals? Because all we have to do is look at our past immigration policies and all it is doing is just encouraging immigration from richer western countries. They will have more opportunities to immigrate because of the cost, and also because of the emphasis and importance that this government has placed on the ability to speak English. That is why we have English as a Second Language programs, so that way all people in the world could be treated, hopefully, on an equal basis upon wanting to make Canada their new home.

These policies are putting obstacles, I think needless obstacles, to new immigrants. Also it puts a tremendous economic obstacle when you move into a new country and you are trying to get new employment, and a lot of times when your degrees or your accreditations are not or do not meet Canada's standards and you have to upgrade yourself, and you have to get into education opportunities to better your own opportunities and the opportunities for your family. You are trying to get an education, trying to hold down jobs, and a lot of times those jobs are minimum wage jobs. You are trying to make a new life, feed your family, house your family, pay your education opportunities plus trying to pay the money that you had to pay for the fees and the head tax, because in a lot of cases I am sure they have had to borrow it from families or friends or other means.

I have talked to different people, and a lot of people have said to me that these new policies are racist policies. They feel very strongly about that, they say, because what it does is it is designed to keep the poor and people of colour from immigrating to Canada. All that it is doing is encouraging emigration from the western regions, from Europe, and it is discriminating against people from poorer regions of the world.

Also, when the minister was making some of his comments, I was very encouraged when he mentioned that they are negotiating bringing in, I think the figure he mentioned was 200 sewing jobs. I hope when the minister negotiates those jobs with the federal government that there will be in place training opportunities, language training opportunities, and adjustment assistance to these individuals, because I think we are giving some people a tremendous opportunity. Also, when negotiating those 200 sewing positions and negotiating with the government, I hope that the minister will also try to include some kind of a clause to help these new immigrants to Canada to assist them, if they choose, with the family reunification. There should be a package in there. I feel very strongly about that because I emphasize about the strengths of family and the importance of family.

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I will be asking some questions a little later about the Multicultural Grants Advisory Council. I will be asking later who was on that council and what roles each individual is playing in there. Then I would like to ask some questions later about the whole provincial accreditation program, because I think that has to be one of the most important aspects of immigration. If there is an accreditation board or an organization that would view new immigrants to Manitoba, look at the accreditation of each individual and not just throw them out the window and say, I am sorry but we cannot recognize your degree or the accreditation that you have received from your country, but to look at breaking it down and compare it to our standards that each individual has to meet.

In a lot of cases, the individual and governments will spend extra money putting people through, say, a four-year program or a seven-year program for a doctorate degree or whatever, instead of looking at coming up with personalized adult education training programs. I have seen it work in different programs in Manitoba. New Careers was a good example where you did the task analysis and you took an individual's personal qualifications or certification programs, and then you designed your program to accommodate the individuals of that group.

I think it would help a lot of people, and I think it would help Manitoba. When I say that, for an example, an engineer or a doctor or a lawyer from another country, they might not have to go through the whole seven years. There might be a program where they could take for three to four years and then challenge our Manitoba standard. Meanwhile, there should be assistance provided where there is money set aside for individuals to be funded throughout that three to four years or in some cases it might be two years, and training allowances given for individuals to have the proper time to spend with their family, to do their studying. Then, upon graduation, you could look at the repayment of the cost of that degree or accreditation, whichever is needed, when a person is making a good salary in whatever career that they are qualified in.

The other opportunity that we have, and we could be very innovative here in Manitoba, is to look at some of our very high-skilled needs areas in Manitoba. As you are aware that in the North and some of our rural communities, it is hard to get doctors, or some communities need lawyers or some need engineers or some need electricians or some need plumbers. I think we should seriously, really take a serious look at that.

If a person is willing to relocate, say, three years or five years to one of those highly--and a lot of times when a person relocates to a lot of our wonderful places in Manitoba, they end up staying there anyway, but if we could look at the opportunity of a forgivable loan of the education costs, if they stay, say, three years or five years. If they choose to work in Winnipeg, fine. People have that choice, and then if they do stay in a bigger centre, then they can repay the cost of the education when they are gainfully employed in their career, instead of trying to hold down two jobs trying to feed a family, trying to pay your mortgage, trying to pay your education costs, and, on top of that, trying to find time to study. We are, I think, placing people in very difficult situations, and I know some succeed, but a lot of people who could succeed do not even have the opportunity to even attempt that.

I think those are some of the examples that I hope the government will look at. It would probably save us a lot of money because it would be a wise investment. It would be an investment in people who have chosen to call Manitoba their home.

The other area that I would like to touch a bit on is the Manitoba Intercultural Council. I have been at some meetings. I have been in contact with the membership there, and I see a lot of work they are doing. It is a wonderful organization, and it is an organization that is made up of various organizations throughout Manitoba, even throughout the city. Wade Williams is the president. I know that there are Portuguese associated, Filipino, Chinese, East Indian; all different members of each organization are part of that, I guess it would be, umbrella organization. So that is a strong voice and an easy way of communicating with the community.

I wish the government would look at assisting that organization and working closely with that organization because it would benefit the government, and it would--[interjection] Well, dollars or whatever commitment that the government can give, too, because I know that they try to fund-raise. You go to events and they always have an excellent turnout. I think it is a very strong organization that warrants support of the government because it has the support of a lot of the people from the city and from Manitoba.

So those are just some of the comments I want to put on record, and then I would like to go into some of the questions I have pertaining to this year's budget. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chairperson: I have been asked by one of the members of the committee whether there would be leave, whether she would also be able to put a few comments on the record. Is there leave from the committee? [agreed]

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Mr. Chair, I am sorry to have missed the minister's opening address. I am particularly sorry to have missed his remarks because I understand, among other issues, he discussed films and libraries. So I look forward to reading his remarks in Hansard.

I am very concerned about libraries. They are very important to me, both as instruments for community development and instruments for education. I will be asking some questions later about libraries, particularly about the Future of Public Libraries in Manitoba, the 1994 publication.

I also understand that the minister mentioned at least two films, For the Moment and My Life as a Dog. I want to say that I enjoyed both of them. For the Moment, I particularly enjoyed the historical and cultural elements. Of course, it is always touching to see a film that is set in our province and where one can recognize particular geographical locations, so I certainly enjoyed it. Also, at least one of the installments of My Life as a Dog was filmed in my constituency and I was observing the filming as I walked by with my dog, so I am proud of my constituency for having the filming.

I would like to take this opportunity to recognize the contribution that film does make to our economy. I know that the minister shares this with me.

Second, I want to agree with the suggestion made by the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) concerning the insulting remarks of Bob Ringma and Dave Chatters. I agree with the member for Point Douglas that a letter of censure is in order, and I hope that will be delivered.

Last year in Estimates, most of the questions I asked were about publishing and film classification, although I did ask a lot of questions about boards, especially the Manitoba Arts Council. This year my questions will be more wide ranging.

Later on we may be joined by the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) who wishes to ask some questions about Fitness. We see that Fitness is now part of this ministry. My caucus is particularly concerned about the decreasing hours of phys ed in schools and what the impact will be on the already sagging physical fitness of Manitobans. We are disturbed, too, that despite the poor physical fitness of women and girls in Manitoba, physical education programs in Manitoba generally encourage competitiveness, competitive sports, rather than physical fitness and well-being, but I am sure the member for Radisson will take this issue up when she comes in, if indeed she is able to.

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Having read the minister's news release on the discussion of new privacy legislation regarding the protection of personal records and health records and balancing this with the right to access of information, it certainly seems to me that the legislation is needed, but I think what I would like to put on the record is that it is needed because the government created the need by privatizing government records. I am referring to steps like the SmartHealth card, like the sale of Manitoba Data Services and the privatization of phone records through Faneuil. So certainly protections are needed, and we compliment the minister's initiative in repairing the damage caused by other areas of his government.

On a more salubrious note, I want to congratulate the winners of the Prix Awards, and I will be passing along my personal messages of congratulations when I receive the addresses of the recipients. I am very sorry to have missed the evening. There was a conflict with the YWCA's Women of Distinction Awards and I attended that event.

In conclusion, I want to say that I think the minister and I are both extremely fortunate to work with culture and heritage. These are aspects of our civilization which exalt the human spirit and honour human achievements both past and present. I am sure the minister shares this perspective. I look forward to working with him and his staff in helping to provide a supportive environment, the kind of environment which is of course necessary if art is to flourish and if heritage is to be honoured and celebrated.

I thank the committee for giving me leave to make these few introductory remarks.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Chairperson, I would seek leave just to give some brief opening remarks.

Mr. Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee to grant leave? [agreed]

Mr. Lamoureux: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson and committee members, for allowing me the opportunity to be able to say a few words.

In the past, I had been the critic for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. I tend to give a lot of focus on the multicultural side or the citizenship side of this particular side of the Estimates, and it is only due to time. I recognize the importance of the whole department, and it is not to underestimate how important a role the whole department has to play in terms of the development of Manitoba's society and having some sort of influence in terms of preservation of heritage, whether it is through museums, films, whatever else is out there or in addition to whatever else is out there.

What I wanted to focus my few remarks on is the whole issue of immigration, and the reason why it is immigration is because it is a very important issue not only for me personally but also for my constituency. This is an issue which I ultimately believe the provincial government is playing a larger role in as the federal government has chosen to allow the provinces to become more involved in immigration.

What we believe in the provincial Liberal Party as a positive thing that the federal government did was the creation of the provincial nominee classification. That ultimately was used to be able to garner the sewing machine operators, along with co-operation in terms of enhancing that to 200 as opposed to 100, and I think potentially is a tool in the future that this is something that Manitoba could benefit from tremendously.

The member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) points out what the New Democrats classify as a head tax. Even though we disagree with the federal Liberal government in terms of instituting a $975 fee, we do not perceive it as a head tax. Head tax does imply a lot more than what is actually being instituted. I have really yet to hear the arguments that clearly demonstrate that this is a racial action by the government. But having said that, Mr. Chairperson, ultimately we would like to see some change in that area.

More importantly from a provincial perspective anyway at this time is the immigration bilateral agreement which is still under negotiation. I have argued in the past and would argue today that what is in Manitoba's best interests is quite unique than what is in other provinces' best interests, in particular the whole idea of family reunification. What we have found is that through family reunification, Manitoba has been successful in terms of attracting immigrants to the province and retaining those immigrants in the province of Manitoba. They have also contributed in many different ways within the economy and the social fabric of our society. Ultimately, any bilateral agreement that is achieved should take that into consideration.

The other thing that we believe that has to be taken into consideration is that quite often the government plus the New Democratic Party here fall into a bit of a trap. That trap is that

if Canada receives, just using round figures, let us say 100,000 immigrants in any given year, many would argue that we should get 3.7 percent. I have put on the record in the past what our position is, and that is that we should not be arguing for 3.7 percent. What we should be arguing for is what would be the optimum number of immigrants in the different classifications and how they would complement each other for the province of Manitoba, in essence saying that if Manitoba can receive in any given year somewhere, let us say, between the range of 8,000 to 11,500 immigrants, then that is, in fact, what we should be attempting to negotiate with Ottawa.

I have met with the former Minister of Immigration, and I have full intentions of meeting with the new Minister of Immigration at some point in time in the not-too-distant future hopefully, whenever time allows for it, to emphasize that point primarily because, as has been illustrated in the past by the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) and the Minister of Culture and Heritage (Mr. Gilleshammer), Manitoba has benefited tremendously through immigration. In Manitoba, I believe the elected officials of all three political parties have recognized the role that immigration has played in the past, and its future role is so vitally important not only to the economy but also, as I have indicated in the past, to the social fabric of our society.

There are many, many different agenda items that need to be addressed with the government of the day, and this has to rank as one of the top priorities, because Manitoba really and truly has not done well through immigration in terms of numbers in the past. We need to be more aggressive, and in some areas it means providing constructive criticism of the federal government and some of the things it might be doing. In other areas, it means working in a very co-operative fashion in order to achieve what is in Manitoba's best interest.

I think that we have a golden opportunity in the sense that Dr. Rey Pagtakhan, who represents a north-end Winnipeg riding, was appointed the parliamentary secretary to the Prime Minister of Canada. This is an individual that, I believe, and the minister has paid compliments to Mr. Pagtakhan in the past, does carry a tremendous amount of clout in Ottawa, and the minister brought an editorial with respect to Dr. Rey here today.

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But, Mr. Chairperson, the point is what we have to do is we have to maximize whatever communication links we have to ensure that Manitoba is getting more immigrants to the province, because, ultimately, we will be a better society if we are successful in achieving that. I bring up Dr. Pagtakhan because I know his commitment to the issues of immigration, and I feel that he would be a very strong ally with the provincial Legislatures of all political parties to work in co-operation, as many members from all the different ethnic groups have made representation to this particular individual. I know I have, and other MLAs have done just that.

Another important provincial issue is the whole area of immigration consultants. I have sponsored a private members' bill suggesting that what we need to do is to have some form of registration of immigrant consultants. Whether it is a certificate, something ultimately has to be done in that area, Mr. Chairperson, and I look to the provincial government in terms of just to what degree they are prepared to act on that very important issue, because as the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) and the minister are fully well aware, in the current system that is in place, there is a heavy reliance on seeking and getting immigration advice. That advice could quite often be dealt with through a local member of Parliament or even possibly an MLA. I know a significant percentage of my caseload is dealing with immigration, but there are a number of different areas; same thing with David Walker.

The availability of this sort of a profession is important in ensuring that those individuals who claim to be immigration consultants--and anyone can say they are an immigration consultant. It is important for us to ensure that people who might use these immigration consultants can feel at least somewhat comfortable that the province has granted some sort of a certificate, at least indicating that maybe a test was written, that certain standards, a basic understanding of immigration law, some sort of experience, has been taken into account, maybe a notary public, that something is there to indicate that this individual can give advice, especially if they are going to charge.

That would the key. If they are going to charge a fee as an immigration consultant, there should be something put into place to ensure that this fee that is surrendered is, in fact, getting something back of value in return, especially because, and just given the number of cases that I have dealt with, these are people in most part who want in a very desperate way to get something resolved and are very reluctant to pass on anything that might enhance their likelihood of being successful, whether it is an immigration appeal or a sponsorship of someone else.

Having said that, Mr. Chairperson, there is no doubt a number of questions that I could ultimately go through this whole department, not only in multiculturalism and immigration issues but, in essence, the whole department. Unfortunately, I am not going to have the time this go around, but, hopefully, individuals will not interpret a lack of sincerity on my not being able to do that. It is only because I have other responsibilities in other committee rooms.

Having said those few words, I appreciate the members providing me leave to say those few comments. Thank you.

Mr. Chairperson: Does anybody else seek leave to make an opening statement? No? I will grant leave if there is a wish to.

Under Manitoba practice, the Minister's Salary is traditionally left as the last item considered for the Estimates of the department. Accordingly, we will defer consideration of this item and now proceed with the consideration of the next line.

Before we do that, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce his staff to us. Come forward, please.

We will be starting with the area of Citizenship, Section 14.4 of the Estimates.

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): I am pleased to introduce the staff who are joining me. Roxy Freedman, the Deputy Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, recently joined us. The Deputy Minister of Citizenship, Doris Mae Oulton, and the person in charge of Administration and Finance Division, Dave Paton.

I look forward to your questions, and I hope that some of the comments that you put on the record in your opening statements will find their way into questions so that we can deal with those in some detail. If not, I will find some time to respond to them before we finish the proceedings.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Minister. We welcome your staff.

Mr. Hickes: I welcome the opportunity to ask some questions on citizenship and immigration policies. When I made the reference to head tax, that has been a term used by many citizens of Manitoba and Canada. When I say that it is an unfair fee paid to individuals who choose Canada as their new home, all we have to do is look at the $975 fee plus the processing fees and the exorbitant costs for people who want to make Canada their home.

All we have to do is look at the Asian countries, look at the wage structure of the Asian communities and compare it to the European countries and the wage structure from the European communities. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that the people from the European communities would have an easier time to come up with the funds to immigrate to Canada.

Also, if you compare the Asian countries to the European countries, I am sure a lot more people would have the ability to speak English than a person who is in one of the Asian communities. That is why I think we are headed the wrong way. We are forgetting about families of people who are already living in our province and in Canada who wish to bring their extended families closer to them.

All I have to do is look at, for an example, in the Chinese community and in the Philippine community and look at the extended families from those great countries. If you look at the wage structure and the cost compared to Europeans and if you look at the ability to speak English, well, who is going to be given the best opportunity? I do not think that is too hard to figure out.

So making those clarifications, I would like to ask the minister, how far are we in negotiations of a Canada-Manitoba immigration policy and has he made some of those concerns that I raised to the federal government?

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Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Chairman, I would be pleased to answer those questions and comments that the honourable member for Point Douglas has made. Certainly, we have opposed the putting in place of a number of different forms of fees to enable the federal government to cost recover some of the expenses of that department. I have spoken to both Minister Marchi and the new minister Minister Robillard to that effect, to indicate that Manitoba has been a tremendous net benefactor from immigration and that we, like some other parts of the country, welcome immigration to Manitoba and see the cultural diversity that we have in this province as a real strength and we, in fact, need more immigration.

I know the honourable member recognizes that it is the federal government and the federal government alone that makes those rules, puts in place those fees and truly is the gatekeeper. I know as he weaved his way through the opening statements and comments that sometimes, I am sure it was not deliberately, but that was lost, that Manitoba does not have the ability nor the interest in putting those roadblocks in the way, which slows down or speeds up immigration to Canada.

Our role is to make sure that people around the world who want to immigrate to this country recognize and realize that Manitoba is a good place to come to, that there are opportunities here and that they have a correct impression of what we have to offer.

So both in writing, in a number of speeches I have made in the House and other places and in direct meetings with the former minister and the current minister, we have put forward Manitoba's viewpoint on that, and while they have to set national policy and they may have some difficult issues to wrestle with in Toronto and southern Ontario and other places, that national policy cannot be put in place to penalize jurisdictions like Manitoba.

So I want to put his mind to rest about that, that we have made that known and I believe other ministers have also made that known with their colleagues at the federal level.

I am pleased that the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), for instance, mentioned that a member of Parliament from Manitoba is now the parliamentary secretary to the Prime Minister, truly a lofty position and a great honour for Mr. Pagtakhan, who I think has been a tremendous supporter of emigration from all lands to Manitoba. The expectation is that he is going to take on this fight, and he is going to deliver for Manitoba a level playing field. We certainly look forward to hearing about the work that he is going to do with the Prime Minister and the federal cabinet to modify the impact of these fees and have the federal government truly take a second look at this to see that even though they are looking for additional sources of income, this has a detrimental effect on Canada and on Manitoba.

The fees certainly will slow down the family reunification and the family class immigrants that Manitoba has benefited from in the past, and on every occasion we make that point with the federal minister to have them rethink that policy and look at it.

The member also talked about the ability to speak English and sort of deliberately or inadvertently left the impression that Manitoba somehow was becoming the place where certain immigrants perhaps were not coming or were not feeling comfortable or that immigration was being targeted to people who spoke English, and I know in his comments this morning he went much, much further than that, and I will maybe deal with those after I see them in print, but I would like to read into the record the source countries that Manitoba has relied upon for immigration, and I think that perhaps he will understand that the comments he put on the record this morning and again today are not accurate.

Mr. Chairman, 1993 was the last full year that we have immigration numbers to Manitoba that have been finalized. The top source country was the Philippines and, in fact, in a six-year period of source countries that I have listed, the Philippines has been the top source country each and every year. In 1993, India was the second highest. We had the second highest number of immigrants from that particular country. The third place was Hong Kong, the fourth place was Vietnam and the fifth place was the United States.

I do not think those countries that provide immigrants to Manitoba necessarily would fit in with the view that the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) was enunciating. In 1992, the top five were the Philippines, Hong Kong, Poland, Vietnam and India. In 1991, it was the Philippines, Poland, India, Vietnam and the People's Republic of China, and the same in 1990. In 1994, although figures are not fully completed, these are preliminary, again it was the Philippines that provided 22 percent of our immigrants, Hong Kong 12 percent, People's Republic of China was 8.2 percent, Bosnia-Herzegovina was 6.4 percent and India 6 percent.

So if the member feels that only English-speaking people and people trained within English schools are coming to Manitoba, the statistics do not back that up, and I would be pleased to go into more detail at any point with the member to show that his concerns there are simply not warranted.

I think the question revolved around the agreement with the federal government. I indicated in my opening remarks that we are still in negotiations with the federal government. We feel that there has been sort of a more positive environment in Ottawa since the change in the ministry there from Minister Marchi to Minister Robillard. As well as changing the ministers, it would seem that they changed the deputies, as well, and many of the senior staff, and there has been a much more receptive attitude until recently in terms of negotiating immigrants and an immigrant agreement for Manitoba. The member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) had mentioned the fact that the provincial nominee class is a new avenue.

We have been able to achieve some things even without an immigration agreement. We are still going to work very, very hard, but the sewing machine operators are being recruited and allowed to come into the country based on that new category, the provincial nominee class. We have also been working very hard on a special movement from the Ukraine. So I think even without an agreement signed we are doing some very positive business with the federal government under the new minister.

What is complicating negotiations at the present time is this whole issue of what the federal government is going to be in the future, and many, many departments are looking at areas of overlap and duplication, and the federal Immigration Department is asking the question, do we need to be in the settlement business, that we think maybe the province should take this over entirely. We are saying that we have some interest in that as long as the federal government recognizes that they have an ongoing and enduring role to pay costs for settlement programming.

So that has been sort of levered into the discussion on an immigration agreement and it has kind of complicated things, but we will continue to soldier on and attempt to bring an agreement about hopefully in the near future.

So I trust that that would give the member some more insight into that. I can assure him again that we have put forward our concerns about any of the roadblocks that are being put there by federal immigration officials that are a detriment to Manitoba.

Mr. Hickes: I think when I made the example of Asian countries versus European countries, that the minister would understand that immigration in the future, because of the extra costs for people to come to Canada, that it will be much easier for people to emigrate from the European countries versus the Asian countries.

Also, in your opening statement, you mentioned about recruiting, I think it was 200 sewers for the sewing industry--I think it was 200?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes.

Mr. Hickes: Was not one of the criteria of recruiting the ability to speak English, in your opening statement?

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Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I am pleased the member has clarified that his concerns are not over immigration patterns in the past but immigration on into the future. Time will tell whether the member is correct or not. We will certainly be watching that, and I know the federal government will be watching that, too. The pattern has been that the Asian countries have been by far a greater source of immigration in the past to Canada and certainly to Manitoba.

I guess Canadians can take pride in the fact that we have opened our borders to people from all over the world. The member talked about that this morning, and many of us who sit in this House are sons and daughters of immigrants, or grandsons and granddaughters, and we know of the importance of immigration and what it has done for our country.

I think we are going to have to rely upon people like Mr. Pagtakhan to be sure that the Prime Minister and the federal cabinet are aware of these things. I know from talking to the federal government that to a large extent, while they are interested in cost recovery, they are not sure where they are going. Some of the policy ideas they have floated have been withdrawn; some of them have been put in place on a temporary basis. But I think we would all be wise to be vigilant as this unfolds to see that the country as a whole and Manitoba in particular is not adversely impacted by national policies. At the moment, we feel very strongly that we will be, particularly because many, many business-class immigrants who come here with a truck full of money are going to be going to the three cities that they prefer to go to, that is, Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal.

I am sure that as these policies take effect, we are going to have to be sure that our federal members, particularly since in Manitoba, I think, out of our 14 federal members, 12 of them belong to the governing party, that the federal Liberals and the provincial Liberals take an active role in monitoring this. Federal officials are telling us that it should not have a detrimental effect. We can already see by our numbers that it has affected us, and we will continue to press them to change their policies.

My comment on the sewing machine operators, most of the interest and most of the applications we have had are from Asian countries. Some of those families here in the city of Winnipeg, in particular, are ultimately going to have to sponsor these families because this was one of the ways we were able to convince the federal government that these people would not be a drain on the federal government, is that we had families here who were prepared to take responsibility to sponsor these immigrants, and if the sponsorship broke down, rather than that cost and the responsibility falling back on the federal government, the families that are already here would take that responsibility. We think that will certainly work in Manitoba's favour.

I have to say that the federal government is still the gatekeeper; they still will allow people in by their criteria, not Manitoba's criteria. It is a national criteria that is put there for all jurisdictions. One of the criteria that they have always had in their point system is the ability to speak English, and this has been there for a long, long time. To achieve that magic 70 points, they look at things like financial resources, they look at the educational levels, they look at the ability to speak English, and that point system that has been in place for so long has not changed. So it is one of the measures that they use.

By the same token, the member will know, and so do I and I think all committee members know that people who came from all parts of the world who have immigrated to Canada where they needed assistance in settlement, they needed assistance in education, they needed assistance in training and assistance to get jobs, those settlement support services are still there.

If the member wants to see a change in the point system and the criteria, then, again, I would urge him to talk to Rey Pagtakhan, and perhaps he could take the member's concerns directly to the Prime Minister since he is the parliamentary secretary there.

So that has not changed. Even though these financial barriers have been put in place, I believe that will continue to be one of the criteria that the federal government uses as they evaluate and analyze people from other parts of the world who want to come to Canada.

Mr. Hickes: When I raised those concerns, I was trying to draw a picture for everyone in this room, that if we follow the policies that are in place today, it will be a lot more difficult for people from Asian countries to come to Canada versus people from European countries. I think I heard the minister verify that. I am not sure. The stats he was quoting were from 1993, but if we follow the immigration policies we have in place today and look ahead five years from now to see if your stats would still be the same, would they still stay the same, I do not think so.

That is what I am worried about because we have a lot of people who have immigrated before these changes and exorbitant fees were put into place who want to have their families close to them who will have a much harder time to get their families over now, but when we require, and we always do every year, immigration from other countries, it will be much easier for people in the western part of the world to immigrate here.

The other thing is, because one of the priorities is the ability to speak English or French to immigrate to Canada, then if we happen to lose the funding for English as a Second Language or if, say, the requirement is lowered, then what happens to some of the people that we will have immigrating here? That I am also concerned about.

I understand that the responsibility is a federal responsibility, but you are the Minister of Citizenship in Manitoba, and what I am referring to is immigration moving to Manitoba. You as the minister, I hope you will or that you have spoken to the minister in Ottawa and said, hey, look, what is happening here? Are we only going to be bringing in immigration from English-speaking countries or from European countries that can pay your high fee? From what I have heard, I do not think you agree with those new charges that are put in place for people, from your statements. I hope you will clear that up, because that is a very high fee for people from Asian countries and plus the priority for English and French, if they are going to maximize it, that is going to be very difficult.

On that note, when we talk about sewing machine operators, and you were saying you are recruiting from the Philippines, which is great, but I hope that you have looked at the opportunity of the 200 that were coming to Canada the possibility of somehow encouraging family reunification for those individuals. Also I am sure some will need English training programs. So I will just leave that with the minister. After the minister responds, my colleague has a couple of questions that she has asked if she could ask, so she will be asking the next, but it will be in the sewing machine operator area.

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Mr. Gilleshammer: I am not sure what part of my answer the member was not clear on. I have indicated that I have spoken to the federal minister in person, face to face and over the telephone. I have in my speeches many times and in a letter to the federal minister indicated our thorough unhappiness with the fees that have been put in place, so I think we are on the same side on this, that we think that all of those fees, whether it is a bond, whether it is the right-of-landing fee, whether it is a processing fee, medical charges that have to be paid every few months, those things do not work in favour of Manitoba.

I have stated that and I guess I do not know how I can make it more clear. My other colleagues around the table I think are fully understanding this, that we have said that time and time again.

The Premier (Mr. Filmon) has stated in the House, we are not happy. We feel that those policies have been put in place by a federal government dominated by central Canada to solve a problem in Toronto that really is not a problem here in Manitoba. We know that our immigration numbers have been going down and that the federal government again is the only gatekeeper. They are the ones that can tinker with the formula. They are the ones who are putting those roadblocks in place.

The history of immigration to Manitoba certainly shows that the majority of our immigration has come from Asia over the past number of years, and I suspect it will continue to be that way for some time basically because of crowded conditions there, the opportunities for a better life in America. Again, the federal government sets that criteria. They set the test, and I am sure that there will always be points in there for a level of education that potential immigrants have, for the ability to speak English or French, for the training they have had, for the financial resources they have. Again, I do not anticipate that that formula that has been used for such a long time is going to be changed.

In Manitoba, our Citizenship Branch is responsible for settlement. We will continue to be responsible for that. It is a joint responsibility with the federal government. The feds have shown some inclination to change that with all governments across this land. They want to divest themselves of settlement responsibilities.

I trust and hope my honourable friends in the official opposition will join with us and be sure to pressure federal members to see that they have an ongoing, enduring responsibility for settlement. They simply cannot take that responsibility and give it to the provinces or give it to the private sector and say, well, we will be with you for a few years and then our money is out of here. We have to be sure that they are committed to the settlement issues for a long time.

Basically, I do not think we are disagreeing on very much as far as the recent policies of the federal government on immigration are concerned. I appreciate if in the activities that honourable members are involved in they can raise that within their communities and with federal members. I know Mr. Pagtakhan has spoken out on that. We are relying to a great degree on him to be sure the Prime Minister understands Manitoba's point of view.

Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, just a brief comment, I think I can speak for the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) and members of my caucus and assure the minister that we will indeed lobby our members of Parliament to accept their responsibilities for resettlement. We do honour and believe in a level playing field and pluralism and multiculturalism.

What I really wanted to ask the minister was a question related to the garment industry, in which I have taken an interest because of my status as the critic for women. The minister has spoken about recruiting 200 workers for the garment industry, and I believe he identified the main countries from which these workers would be recruited as being the Philippines and the Ukraine. I understand that a lot of Filipino women do speak--I guess the workers would not necessarily be women but there would be that tendency. Anyway, I understand that many Filipino people speak English, and this is probably true of the Ukraine.

My information is that the garment industry has no room for employment, that the garment industry has moved towards seasonal employment in short runs with layoffs in between. The layoffs in between used to be times when uniforms were made, but this is no longer the case. I am not sure this is the type of employment that we want for immigrants. We probably do not want to bring them into an uncertain market where families will become responsible. I wonder if the minister could comment, or am I asking the wrong person these questions?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I can comment and the member already apologized for not being here this morning, but I want to read again part of my comments this morning about this particular initiative. As we have been able to announce it and make the information available within Manitoba, and, in fact, throughout the world, there have been 700 sponsorship packages which have identified 850 potential candidates abroad in 32 different countries.

So when we enter into an initiative like this, it is not country-specific. I guess we need to get that information out worldwide, but, certainly, the families who are in Winnipeg now, in Manitoba now, who are involved in the industry and have relatives who wish to perhaps have an opportunity to immigrate to Manitoba using this vehicle are the ones who are, I think, helping to identify relatives in those countries to see if they are interested in that opportunity to be here.

The industry working with other departments have indicated that there are anywhere from 1,500 to 2,000 jobs available in that industry. The long-term solution, as I indicated this morning, is to train Manitobans. If, in fact, a variety of jobs are there, even though it is nearly the lowest unemployment rate in Canada, we still have somewhere around 7 percent unemployment, which is not acceptable. I mean, strides have to be taken through I, T and T and Education and Family Services to identify some of those people who might want to find employment in the garment industry.

This is an extremely important industry in Manitoba. Very high quality garments are made that are sold around the world. It is a booming industry which at the present time is looking for more sites. I know quite recently, the Fashion Institute people have been in rural Manitoba in communities like Virden, Melita, Reston and the Brandon area, talking about the opportunities that exist there. There are factories now in St. Malo and in Steinbach.

It is a booming industry. The product is good. There are job opportunities there. I think we were certainly convinced by the work that was done by many departments that, in fact, there was a labour market shortage and that part of this problem could be addressed through immigration. It took a long time to get a number of federal departments onside to examine just what type of workforce was available, people who were on social assistance or on unemployment insurance, how many of those we could train. Again, we kept coming back to part of the solution being immigration, and we are pleased that in recent weeks that was achieved.

The member raises an issue about the labour market sometimes having a slowdown. This is certainly true. There have been times because of lack of product or other reasons when some of these factories have had a short-term layoff, but people who are professionals in the Department of I, T and T, Education and Family Services, as well as our own department at the provincial level, as well as staff from the federal Immigration department and the federal Human Resources department, examined this for many, many months and did come to the conclusion that part of the solution can be immigration.

So we are pleased that we have finally achieved that. There are some tight time lines in there that give us some cause for concern, but it is going to be an opportunity for immigrants wanting to come to Canada to achieve that through this particular side agreement that we have with the federal government and the fashion industry.

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Ms. McGifford: I thank the minister for his remarks. Unfortunately, I do not have my notes here on the garment industry. Again, the minister may not be the appropriate person to ask these questions of, but what I understand about the industry is that there are a couple of very intensive periods of work where, yes, more people are needed, but then they get laid off in the intervening periods and then become either a community responsibility or, I suppose, a family responsibility.

I do have questions about people coming as immigrants to a market that is as insecure as this. I know that workers were laid off at at least one of the Nygard factories during March. I think that the number of jobs available is at least disputable. I have heard some very different information from what the minister is presenting. I know that since NAFTA many of the garment jobs have moved offshore.

I just want to put those remarks on the record. If the minister wants to respond, I would appreciate it.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I would just comment that in talking to people that I have known for a long time who immigrated to Canada that the leaving of one's home and one's homeland and one's country and friends and relatives has always historically been sort of an insecure future, an uncertain future.

In many cases, they are leaving because of conditions within their own country, whether it was from war or famine or overcrowding. I think, given the numbers of people who want to come to Canada from all over the world, Canada is seen as a bright spot and, of course, recognized by the United Nations two of the last three years as the finest country in the world to live.

The uncertainty is always going to be there, and the insecurity is always going to be there, as people leave and often leave conditions that are very, very unpleasant. They come with hope. They come with the idea that there will be work for them. I know from talking to people who were born and raised in Manitoba and who have been through the school system who are wondering where this world is going and where they are going to end up, there is uncertainty there, but I think we will always welcome these immigrants, and they will always see Manitoba, and Canada in particular, as a wonderful place to come.

Mr. Hickes: I was just going through the material here, and it says here, it is under Expected Results: Co-ordination of the Interdepartmental Working Group on immigration related issues.

When you refer to Interdepartmental Working Group, could the minister tell me who is on that, or who makes up the working group?

Mr. Gilleshammer: At the federal level, I indicated there was the Department of Immigration and the Human Resources department who certainly took the lead from that level. Provincially, the Department of I, T and T, the Department of Family Services, the Department of Education, as well as this department were involved, and there were times when Rural Development was brought in for economic activity outside of Winnipeg. As well, we talked to departments like Health and Agriculture.

So this was a broad-based group of people brought together to examine this issue from many different aspects to try and understand what impact this would have on our province, and it truly is a fine example of government departments and government bureaucracy working together.

Mr. Hickes: Also on the same page, it says, placement of 25 newcomers in permanent employment in their respective fields. How are you achieving this? Is this through training or employment opportunities subsidized by government?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, there are many partnerships that develop within the community where we are able to assess credentials and place them in particular fields of endeavour where there are openings and vacancies within the province. Again, it is a matter of our Citizenship Branch working with other departments who are in the labour market area, whether it is the Department of Labour, Rural Development or I, T and T and trying to match skilled immigrants with actual positions that are out there.

Mr. Hickes: Just to go to the next one, it says, provision of a minimum of 400 immigrants with accreditation and employment counselling and referral annually. Do you meet that every year, of accreditation to 400 immigrants?

Mr. Gilleshammer: That is a target that we have within the department that is met some years and not others. Last year, it was 300-plus that we were able to provide referrals and counselling for, but that is a target based on historical numbers and based on our ability to deliver those services.

Mr. Hickes: When you say, like you said, some years it is being met and others it is not, are you going government fiscal year to government fiscal year on this program? If that is the case, how many do you have that are in the possibility of getting their accreditations for this year? How many do you have on apprenticeship programs?

Mr. Gilleshammer: That question would be better asked in the Department of Education. That has the responsibility for training and apprenticeship.

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Mr. Hickes: I guess what I was looking at was, if you are looking at 400 getting their accreditation or counselling or referrals annually and stuff like that, who does their referral and where is it handled out of?

Mr. Gilleshammer: The responsibility for that is the labour market credentials branch within Citizenship who make referrals to other agencies and other departments of government.

Mr. Hickes: I would just like to move down to--it says, Expected Results, delivering of five antiracism and Respectful Workplace training sessions to the public sector and the community and continued follow-up with those training sessions already initiated.

That is the target for this year. What was last year, or was it the same? If it was the same, was the target met?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Chairman, I am told that that target was met and surpassed, but it does give me the opportunity to talk a little bit about the code for a Respectful Workplace.

We found over the last few years where we at one time had a program called Bridging Cultures, where a lot of the activity within that particular line in the budget was designated for antiracism activities and to help combat some of the more unseemly things that happen in our society, we were not happy with the results that we were getting there, so within the branch, this code for a Respectful Workplace was developed and has been put in place within the Citizenship Branch. It has also been shared with the Civil Service Commission and with some of the other departments of government.

I know from talking to the people who have been monitoring this program that they feel it has been very, very successful. Maybe I can just give you a little background on it. There is a statement of principle that has been put in place within the department where we strive for a respectful workplace, one where we believe and are reminded that we are important contributors to the harmony of our work environment, where we feel respected as individuals and know that diversity is treated as an asset. Collectively, we support each other and do not tolerate any behaviour that is or is perceived to be inappropriate or disrespectful. We are committed as individuals by being active participants and not merely bystanders.

This has been a very positive policy within our branch that has been shared with the rest of the department and with other departments of government. We have, I think, been asked by the Civil Service Commission for the details on it and believe that through this very proactive type of program, we can truly not only talk about what we are doing but sort of live this within the department and be an example of a model workplace that can be emulated by other departments of government, other levels of government, and, in fact, the private sector.

I am told that this workshop has been given in the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, the Department of Justice, for the City of Thompson, for the Delta Hotel chain, for the Human Rights Commission, for the City of Winnipeg and for a number of others.

So we think that we are taking a very proactive role in this particular approach and one that I suppose started as a bit of an experiment to try and promote a society that does have respect for other people and tolerance for other people. We look forward to this code being adopted by other departments, other jurisdictions and, in fact, having a very positive impact on the workplace, not only within government but also within society. I would be pleased to provide my honourable friends with a copy of this, so that they get a better understanding of it.

Mr. Hickes: I appreciate the opportunity to see a copy of the program because I would be interested in seeing how long those programs are. Are they one-day training programs, or are they a week long or two weeks long, and who delivers these programs? Are they through colleges or outside consultants or who?

Mr. Gilleshammer: The program has been developed by staff within the Citizenship Branch, and I think it is fair to say that it is a growing activity as other people find out about the positive aspects of it.

Some of the workshops are two-day workshops and some are longer. I think the important aspect of it is to buy into it in principle and believe that this is the appropriate way to go, so that after a thorough introduction to it that this becomes an ongoing activity within a department or within a branch of government and that the very many positive sides to this are appreciated, so that if, in fact, it can be achieved in a two-day workshop and be reinforced by further consultation later, it can have a very positive result. I think, also, we are prepared to train people in these other departments who can go back and sort of widen the circle of people who are interested in this.

Mr. Hickes: Is there any training of this nature going on in the civil service of Manitoba within the different departments and different branches as new people are being hired on? You know, it would be good.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I am told the Civil Service Commission offers this on an ongoing basis to interested parties.

Mr. Hickes: Would the minister recommend to his colleague, whoever is in charge of the Civil Service branch or the government, that new employees take this kind of training program, because I think it would be very important.

If there are new employees coming on and if it is a one- or two-day course, I think it would benefit everyone. I think it would be an excellent training program, and I think it would be very educational for a lot of people.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Again, I think we are in agreement that this is a wonderful program delivered by the branch. The Civil Service Commission obviously feels the same way and have bought into it. It tends to be offered probably on a group basis as opposed to an individual basis, but I am sure that literature is available for newcomers. Part of any branch would be an orientation into the job and the branch, and we would encourage the Civil Service Commission to continue to support this.

Mr. Hickes: I would like to move on to the bottom of 62. It says, co-ordination and development of three new curricula and curriculum support materials plus two editions of Prairie Reader.

I have never seen the Prairie Reader. Who puts these editions out and who gets a copy of them?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that this is provided through the branch to people in the ESL program, and we would be pleased to provide a copy of it for the member.

Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, what is the purpose of the Prairie Reader then? Is it used by students in ESL programs? Which authors are published in the Prairie Reader? Is this material from immigrant people?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that it is produced by our staff to be part of the training program for ESL, and they will attempt to find subjects of interest to people who are in the program who are attempting to learn the language. I am told one of the most recent ones was on fire safety, and it was developed probably through the Fire Commissioner's office and some of the staff there.

So, again, I think the previous time we met the member told me about her teaching background, and you would know that you constantly look for reading material that would be of interest but still serve the purpose of being able to be part of a language program, as well, so that the vocabulary would have to be appropriate and the material would have to be of a certain interest.

So this is an ongoing challenge, and I think perhaps if we share a copy of that with the member, you will have a better understanding of it.

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Ms. McGifford: It is not then a literary publication as such? It is to facilitate the learning of language, and that is its goal.

Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct. I guess the literary value is secondary to its role as a curriculum base to assist with the teaching of English.

Mr. Hickes: I have one more question, and that has to do with an accreditation program. I mentioned earlier in my opening comments about the possibility of looking at setting up an accreditation board or tying in individuals' accreditations from another country, to look at the possibility of assisting people to get their accreditations.

Through your department, could you see your government pursuing that further, to assist individuals to set up as a group, not just one training program for one individual, but you group the individuals who have the same need and set up training classes, instead of going through the whole seven years or four years or whatever, that you could look at training specific needs and then prepare people to challenge for their Manitoba degree or accreditation?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, this in my mind is not out of line with what we do, that we assist people in upgrading their skills and meeting accreditation, but often that accreditation is done by another body. If it is medical doctors who have come to Manitoba and want to be able to practise medicine, they have to get their accreditation from the provincial government and the College of Physicians. I know we all want to be sure that when we go under the knife, that we have somebody that understands medicine and is truly accredited. One of the difficulties, of course, in some countries, people who have some background in medicine, you know, are considered highly skilled and highly qualified in their particular jurisdiction and perhaps would even be referred to as doctor. We owe it to the people of Manitoba to be sure that, in fact, they do have those skills.

I sometimes remember my parents and friends of my parents talking about all these people that came from Europe who are engineers, and I thought, well, they must be training an awful lot of engineers in Europe. Then I found out that anybody that had any training in technology was referred to as an engineer, and not all of them could build bridges and tall buildings. It was simply a reference to technological training.

So I think that the Canadian government and the Manitoba government have a responsibility to check out credentials, to assist where someone needs a little bit of support and help to take that next step to be accredited, and that is part of what we do within our department and within the Department of Education.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 14.4, 4.(a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,369,200--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $467,400--pass; (c) Grant Assistance $1,391,600--pass.

Resolution 14.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,228,200 for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1997.

Now we will move to Multiculturalism, 14.5, 5.(a) Multiculturalism Secretariat (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $87,300--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $66,800.

Mr. Hickes: I have a few questions dealing with multiculturalism. I do not have that many questions. I am just looking at the dollar figures, and I guess what really surprises me when I looked at the figures was under Salaries where we had in '95-96 Professional/Technical, you had three staff, and in '96-97 you have two staff, and the dollar amount goes from $140,800 down to $50,000, which is a difference of $90,800 for one staff salary. I would like to know what that position was and who was in that position.

Mr. Gilleshammer: The fact of the matter is there were a couple of staff positions there. One of them was vacant and had been vacant for some time.

One of the things we are doing within the department is moving the Multiculturalism Secretariat and the Citizenship Branch a little closer together, not only physically moving them but also having them work more in consultation and conjunction with one other. In the next short while, that office will be relocating to 213 Notre Dame. Some of the activities and expenses will be shown within the Citizenship Branch. We anticipate that the activities will continue very much the way they have in the past. The vacant position was one that, as I indicated, had been vacant for some time and we have given up. We now have three people showing in that particular part of the expenditures.

Mr. Hickes: You said one was vacant and the other position obviously someone went somewhere, so who is the individual who either got transferred or moved?

Mr. Gilleshammer: There is a two-SY reduction there. One was a Professional/Technical, and it was the vacant SY. The other was admin support. That work is being covered off through the amalgamation of the Multiculturalism Secretariat and the community access office. I am told the person was Joanne Prefontaine who is going to Regional Services.

Mr. Hickes: Under the same allocation in my figures here, you had five staff in '95-96, and in '96-97 you have three staff, and one is administrative support that will be running the whole Multiculturalism Secretariat. Is that to be?

Mr. Gilleshammer: That is the one support staff secretarial position, and there are two Professional/Technical staff years there.

Mr. Hickes: So you will be running the Multiculturalism Secretariat with a total number of three staff from five?

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Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct. That is part of our amalgamation that will exist between the Multiculturalism Secretariat and the Citizenship Branch.

Mr. Hickes: So who will be providing services to the individuals? Who will be picking up the extra work that is lost by the reduction in staff?

Mr. Gilleshammer: As I have indicated, there is an amalgamation there between the Multiculturalism Secretariat and the Citizenship Branch. Some of the programming that was of interest to both the secretariat and the branch would be something like the Respectful Workplace. We saw this as an area where additional co-ordination would be required and beneficial.

The work of the secretariat then will be done by the three people designated under that line, but, also, part of the responsibilities will be picked up by staff within the Citizenship Branch.

Mr. Hickes: I am looking at this chart here, and I see under Multiculturalism Secretariat, I presume it would be the director, David Langtry, and underneath you have different divisions, public libraries, Arts Branch. Do all these different divisions report to Mr. Langtry?

Mr. Gilleshammer: No, that is not correct. They report to the Deputy Minister of Culture, Heritage, and that is the deputy minister in charge of the Programs branch who is Lou-Anne Buhr, who is seated in the room. So the Arts Branch, the Public Library Services, Historic Resources, Recreation and Wellness Promotion, Regional Services throughout the province all report to her.

Mr. Hickes: So who reports to Mr. Langtry?

Mr. Gilleshammer: He has responsibilities in a number of areas. The Multiculturalism Affairs Committee of Cabinet, he is a part of that. Also the interdepartmental committee on multicultural affairs and staff within the Multiculturalism Secretariat report to Mr. Langtry who, in turn, reports to the minister.

Mr. Hickes: So who are these two staff who are listed as Professional/Technical under Multiculturalism Secretariat?

Mr. Gilleshammer: One is L. Fernandez. The other is M. Share.

Mr. Hickes: The roles and functions of these two staff, has it increased, decreased. or is it the same as from last year?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, we have found within the secretariat that there is a fairly consistent workload. As I have indicated, some of their functions and responsibilities are going to be more closely tied to the Citizenship Branch. We expect that there will be enough work for them.

Mr. Hickes: The reason I asked is because I was just looking at the number of staff in the past and the number now, and I look at multiculturalism right across the province in Manitoba, and I have heard many people speak, and they speak about the importance of multiculturalism to our communities and that we all need to support it; we all need to do this and that. I look at the total figure at the bottom, and the Multiculturalism Secretariat has almost been reduced financially by very close to 50 percent.

I do not know how that could be a strong commitment to multiculturalism for Manitobans when there is such a decrease in funding. If there is a decrease in funding, there has to be a decrease in activities. I cannot see how anything else can happen because you are going to have fewer programs, you have fewer people promoting the programs.

I hope the minister is committed to multiculturalism in Manitoba, and I hope he will explain why there is such a deep, deep cut.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I would certainly be more than pleased to explain it. I think I share the member's fondness for multiculturalism. I know I speak out on it often, that this is an extremely multicultural province and in many ways the envy of other provinces across Canada.

The multicultural activities within Manitoba have certainly not decreased in the last few years and probably increased. I think that the member needs to be aware that there are other lines within the budget of the department where multicultural grants are located and that we continue to support the many groups across the province who want to gather and celebrate their uniqueness, whether it is in northern Manitoba or rural Manitoba or the city of Winnipeg.

I can say that one of the real strengths of our province is the many different multicultural groups that not only come out at the time of Folklorama but, in fact, provide entertainment and education to Manitobans throughout the entire year. I am always proud when many of these groups come out to western Manitoba, whether it is to Brandon or Minnedosa or other communities to share their food, their colourful costumes, their dance, their language and all of the wonderful aspects there are to multiculturalism which leads to a greater understanding of who they are and allows us to join in celebrating their particular culture.

We have not changed. We have passed a multicultural act, we have done many things over the last number of years to make the various cultural groups within Manitoba feel not only comfortable but welcome and very much a contributing part of our society. I do not think the member needs to feel that there is any downgrading of the significance this government puts on multiculturalism.

I have tried to explain a shift and a closer tie-in between multiculturalism and the Citizenship Branch, because many of their activities have been quite similar in many ways that they have working with the same client base. We felt that there were some advantages to having these two particular groups work more closely with one another. The support is certainly there from our government and some of the responsibilities will be shifting, but we expect to continue to work with the multicultural community.

I recall just this week going to a wonderful folkloric ballet put on by the Chilean community as part of the lead-up to the Pan-Am Games. I do not know whether honourable members had the good fortune to attend that at the Pantages Theatre, but I can tell you the hall was full that night of Manitobans who were there to enjoy the dance of a group that was brought in from another country. One only had to be there to talk to the participants and the people who were enjoying the evening to understand what a rich part of our province this is and that our government fully endorses and supports them.

Mr. Chairperson: The hour being 5:30 p.m, committee rise.