NATURAL RESOURCES

Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order.

This section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Natural Resources. Does the honourable Minister of Natural Resources have an opening statement?

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): I am pleased to present my opening statement to mark the beginning of the Estimates debate in regard to the Department of Natural Resources. The Department of Natural Resources is a broad-based and challenging department, one of the most interesting and exciting departments of government. I have enjoyed my responsibilities as the minister of this department for the past two and a half years, and I believe there have been some notable accomplishments.

Natural Resources touches the lives of virtually every Manitoban, and many are interested in what this department does. My department has a mandate to protect, conserve, manage and sustain the development of the provincial forests, fisheries, wildlife, water, Crown land and parkland resource.

It is also a major contributor to the economic development of the province. Our province is blessed with fresh water and numerous lakes, rivers and wetland areas, with fisheries, wildlife and forests that provide many opportunities. My department ensures that these valuable resources are promoted and used in a manner that will keep them healthy and vigorous, not only for today but for future generations, our children and grandchildren. Incidentally, Mr. Chairman, I have nine grandchildren.

As you are aware, the major challenge facing Manitobans and my department in the past number of weeks is the flood of 1996. I have been in the flooded areas, and I have seen the satellite photos of the flooded region. It is amazing the area of Manitoba and North Dakota that has been covered by water in the past number of weeks. I am very pleased with the work of my department in preparing Manitobans for the various flood situations throughout the province and particularly in the Red River Valley.

While the situation has certainly been very difficult for many Manitobans, my department, in co-operation with other departments, municipalities--and, Mr. Chairman, I want to stress again that municipalities have played a vital part in this thing. They are well organized; they know their EMO organizations, their responsibilities; and they have done a tremendous job. I want to make reference to other organizations, many individuals who have been able to assist many people and prevent many millions of dollars in damage. I want to thank and congratulate all of the employees within the department and everyone involved for an excellent job. Many people went beyond the call of duty and spent many additional hours and extra effort to assist Manitobans in this difficult situation. The Red River Floodway, the vision of former Manitoba Premier Duff Roblin in the 1960s, once again proved its value.

A few weeks ago I had the privilege of hosting seven European journalists to discuss our fur industry and the fur trade with the European Union. I had the opportunity to discuss with them the significance of our wildlife. I also had two members of the opposition there, the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) and the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson), who participated in the discussions.

I explained to them how wildlife is an essential part of our heritage and that so much of our culture, traditions and identity is bound up in our relationship to the land and wildlife. I told them that we are committed to preserving that heritage and to the principles of biodiversity and sustainable development.

I also had the opportunity to communicate to them that there are not many alternatives for people who live in our remote communities unless they can access and develop their resources, including hunting, fishing, trapping and forestry, and all of them interconnected. I also explained to them the importance of the fur trade with Europe and the economic importance to our people.

This government is continuing to work with Ottawa, to intensify her efforts in promoting Manitoba's fur market interests with the European Union. There is an increasing strength in the international fur market, which is of significant importance to our economy.

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We enjoy a wide range of wildlife-based activities from observing wildlife to hunting and trapping. In this regard, the department has developed a tiered, computerized draw system, which will ensure that all Manitoba hunters will have an opportunity to hunt.

At the same time, I am pleased to report that illegal hunting activities in Manitoba have decreased substantially since new regulations and stiffer penalties were introduced by this government in the fall of 1994. Our special initiative to reduce illegal and unsafe hunting practices has been successful due to the co-operation of Manitobans.

We have received a great deal of support for these initiatives from hunters, hunting associations and organizations from across the province and North America. A number of vehicles have been seized for contravention of the new laws which provides for seizure and forfeiture upon conviction in illegal and dangerous hunting situations. The laws target those who disregard hunting laws and benefits those who are participating in safe, ethical hunting practices.

With the support of all Manitobans, the department will continue its commitment to enforce the new hunting regulations and fight against unsafe practices. We will continue to aggressively pursue economic opportunities, especially in the forestry sector where there is significant potential for growth. We continue to work closely with the forest industry in order to provide significant economic benefits and jobs to the province.

You will recall that in November of last year, this government and Repap Enterprises Ltd. announced a new development agreement that will provide up to 325 more forestry jobs than originally expected. Repap will invest more than $250 million in the next five years to build a new pulp mill and upgrade existing operations at The Pas. For our province this deal brings hundreds of additional jobs and millions of dollars of additional revenue. By working with Repap over the past six years, we have developed a forest industry that is much more diversified and stable. Northern Manitobans can look forward to stronger employment prospects in the future because this sector is now better positioned to face the demands of global competition and sustainable development.

By the year 2000, the Repap and Louisiana-Pacific operations will employ up to 1,575 Manitobans, 325 more jobs than were expected from the original Repap agreement. This government with its commitment to the principles of sustainable development has developed a new forest management plan which provides a framework into the next century. The plan is based on environmental and economic stability and provides many opportunities to change and modify the way we manage our forests. This strengthening of partnerships, including all members of the forest sector, is a major factor in the new forest plan.

On the subject of economic benefits, Manitobans now have the opportunity to elk ranch. While this has been a controversial development, elk could prove to be a very profitable venture for farmers wanting to expand beyond traditional crops and livestock. I can ensure all Manitobans that precautions will be taken to protect the integrity of the wild elk. A self-sustaining elk management fund will be created to fund research, blood and DNA testing, identifiction tags and a computer tracking system. These safeguards will prevent poaching, as well as the exchange of disease and genes between domestic and wild elk herds.

One of my main projects is a Rat River Swamp restoration project in southeastern Manitoba. It was a project that took many years to come to fruition. It is a project that symbolizes what my department is all about, sustainable develpment in action which will provide important benefits to agriculture, wildlife and the local economy.

Like so many projects in my department, this wonderful project has been a success because of the partnerships that have been developed with Ducks Unlimited Canada. Many local individuals, organizations and governments working together with communities throughout the province is a key to success in many initiatives and projects that we have undertaken. As minister responsible, I will be very pleased to officially open the Rat River Swamp restoration facility in the very near future.

In Manitoba we are very fortunate to have an excellent supply of the best fresh water anywhere. The protection and wise utilization of our ground water resources is one of the fundamental issues addressed in the application of the province's water policies.

I have had the pleasure to announce in the past year that the government has established four new protected areas in northern Manitoba as provincial parks. The four parks cover a total of more than 2.1 million hectares, and with the addition of these provincial parks the province has increased the total area designated for this purpose to 5.5 percent. This was a substantial step forward in the province's desire of protecting and representing 12 percent of its natural regions. As well, I was very pleased to participate in the official announcement of the establishment of a national park at Churchill, Wapusk National Park, with His Royal Highness Prince Charles, our Premier (Mr. Filmon) and representatives from Ottawa at the official signing ceremony. I also had the privilege and pleasure of taking along the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) to participate in the activities at that time.

As well, this government, in co-operation with the federal government, is continuing its consultation process with all communities involved to establish a new national park in the Manitoba lowlands region. The development of this park would be a significant boost to the Interlake region and the province.

We continue to build and develop our sport fishing industry which contributes $90 million to $150 million annually to our economy. Part of this is the urban sport fishing plan which will see the development of the Red and Assiniboine rivers sport fishing potential.

Ladies and gentlemen, I would just like to say that the past weekend was not necessarily a banner weekend for fishing or for camping, but then the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings) is the one who controls the environment, not myself. I am there to try and provide opportunities for the people who love to enjoy the outdoors.

As well, my department will continue its efforts to stock fish throughout the province. In the past year my staff and commercial fishing organizations have stocked lakes with more than 85 million fish. These efforts demonstrate the commitment of this province to sustaining fish populations. The Fisheries Enhancement Initiative program has been very popular and successful. The program has successfully promoted the conservation and enhancement of fisheries through various groups and organizations across the province. We will continue to work in partnership with these groups. We will also continue to communicate and work with commercial fishermen throughout the province, including the Lake Winnipeg commercial fishery, to look at all options and help resolve some of the many concerns that are out there.

I am pleased to report that there have been no layoffs within the department in the past year. By this summer most of our Winnipeg staff will be in modern office facilities in one building, which we believe will make the department more efficient and effective. I believe we will provide an enhanced service to our customers which includes all Manitobans and our visitors. An additional benefit is that the move into new facilities will save the taxpayers of Manitoba more than $200,000 a year. I am very proud of the accomplishments of my department and the services it provides and delivers. We are in exciting times and are looking forward to the future. Our goals and objectives include the enhancement of our services and to serve the people of Manitoba to the best of our ability.

I have touched on a number of issues within my department. Of course, there are many more issues, some of which I am sure will be discussed and debated during the Estimates process.

Mr. Chairman, when you ask me to, I will ask my staff to--

Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister for those comments. Does the critic of the official opposition, the honourable member for Dauphin, have an opening statement?

Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Mr. Chairperson, I am pleased to be able to partake in the Estimates process again this year. It is my second one. I want to begin by expressing my appreciation to the minister for continuing to walk me through the Estimates of the Department of Natural Resources. I have found him a great fountain of knowledge and information for a rookie critic in Natural Resources, and I look forward to continuing that in this process as well.

I have to agree with a few of the things that the minister has said in his opening statements. I agree that this is an exciting and probably the most interesting department of all that the government is involved in, bar none. I see it as a department that offers a lot of opportunities for Manitobans, not just economic opportunities, but on the side of recreation as well as the economics involved in the wealth of resources that our province has available to it.

Last year at this time we took a lot of time talking about floods and fires. It is good to know that this year we will only have half of that equation to deal with so far. That will probably offer some more opportunities to get a little deeper into other parts of this department.

Sport fishing, commercial fishing, those are two of the opportunities, I think, that we have in Manitoba to really get people involved in what it is that originally brought our ancestors to this part of the world. My hope is that groups like the Intermountain Sport Fishing Enhancement group, the Swan Valley Sport Fishing Enhancement group and other enhancement groups around the province will not be pushed to the side in the development of government policy, that their advice is good and that it will be acted upon by this minister and his department. I would hope that the minister would continue to get some advice when it comes to hunting and guiding and the guidelines and regulations involved in those two areas as well, because I think that also represents very much an opportunity for Manitobans and an opportunity for us to showcase some of the resources that we have in this province.

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I am hoping that the discussions will, over the next little while, as we go through Estimates, focus on parks and tourism as well. I put forth parks as something that is very much an opportunity for growth in our province, and I have some very real concerns, not just my concerns, but as an opposition member, concerns that have been expressed to me by constituents and people in Manitoba.

Also, the availability of fresh ground water in Manitoba is something that I think has been underestimated, undervalued and not given the type of prominence that it should in the development of our province economically, and I would like to encourage the minister to proceed in the area of development of ground water with a little bit of caution. It is too good a resource for us to be wasting.

(Mr. Frank Pitura, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

Some of my concerns are to do with privatization. We have seen privatization in a number of departments, and Natural Resources is no exception. Over the course of the last year since we last spoke in Estimates, we have seen in Natural Resources everything from parks to elk being privatized, and I have some very definite concerns in the area of taking Manitoba's resources out of the public sector and setting it up for the use of the very few and predominantly the very wealthy, who can become involved in seizing property that belongs to all Manitobans.

In that regard I just throw out the example of the increases of park fees that have occurred recently, the abnormally high increases in park fees, the whole plan towards elk ranching that the minister referenced in his comments, and I am also very concerned about where we are headed in the area of forestry. There is a natural resource out there that is being exploited for the use of the very few at the benefit of not a lot of people, so I have some concerns in those areas. I am sure we will go into that a little bit later.

In a general sense, I just want to wrap up by expressing a concern over the lack of objectivity that I see within the Department of Natural Resources. The public processes are there for a reason. They are there for a very specific reason. They are there to make sure that the public has a say in all of the resources that belong to all of us. So far in the year or so that I have been the critic for Natural Resources, I have had several cases, several instances, where the public process has been circumvented by this government, and this department has seen fit to not address in a very public manner the concerns that different groups and people in Manitoba have when it comes to the use of land that contains resources that are there for everybody and not just a few.

Mr. Chair, with those comments, I would like to begin the Estimates process. I would ask that we take the line of the Minister's Salary and bump it to the end as is--[interjection] Not delete it yet. We will see how well he does over the course of the next little while in Estimates.

I would like to bump that to the end of the Estimates process and begin at Executive Support, and at that line, I would like to deal with all the issues that I have that I can bring forward and allow some of my colleagues a chance to ask some questions and then deal with the rest of the lines in a very quick manner, if that is fine by everybody.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Pitura): We thank the critic from the official opposition for those remarks.

Under Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of a department. Accordingly, we shall defer consideration of this item and now proceed with consideration of the next line. At this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce his staff.

Mr. Driedger: I would like to take this opportunity to introduce a few of my staff people here. First, on my left, is my Deputy Minister Dave Tomasson--I think everybody knows Dave pretty well--and my director of administration Bill Podolsky.

Mr. Chairman, I have no difficulty how yourself as Chairman and the critic decide how we are going to deal with my Estimates. I comply whichever way you want.

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Mr. Struthers: One further question, sort of on the process, I would ask the minister--

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Pitura): Order. I probably should identify the line first before we proceed, so I will identify it. It is Item 1. Administration and Finance (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $389,400.

Mr. Struthers: To deal a little further on the process, I would ask the minister if there will be other officials made available to us as we go through questioning, not doubting the talents and abilities of the two gentlemen he has introduced, but from time to time in Estimates, I was wondering if there would be other people that could be made available.

(Mr. Chairperson in the Chair)

Mr. Driedger: Not necessarily, but I will give the undertaking that if there are any questions that between the three of us we cannot satisfactorily respond to, I will give an undertaking that the proper response is going to come back to members of the opposition.

Mr. Struthers: I have some questions. Just to start off with, the minister referenced the Brundtland Commission and the 12 percent of the province that is going to be the goal towards which we work in protecting lands.

Upon going through the Estimates book as presented by the minister, it was not clear to me just exactly how much money has been put towards the endangered spaces commitment that his government has made. I am interested in knowing the full range of resources from dollars and staff years and which branch will be mainly involved in reaching that goal of 12 percent.

Mr. Driedger: The member raises the question as to how much financial resources will be put into the designation of Endangered Spaces. I have to tell you that I do not think it has much bearing as to the amount of money that basically we put into there. It is a matter of how much land we have available to put aside and the process that we do that with.

The Parks department is the one that is working with that whole Endangered Spaces Program. I just might add that in spite of the fact that the member is well aware of the grading that we got from the World Wildlife Fund--and I take exception to that, of course; naturally, I would--because of the fact that we put aside over two million hectares worth of provincial parks and then got a downgrade when some other provinces had no increases and got a better grade, I feel there is a bit of a political arena taking place here with that. But having put that aside, I know what our responsibilities are and the challenges that are faced in terms of the designated 12 percent of the space within the province as Endangered Spaces.

I just want to tell the member--and, Mr. Chairman, with a little bit of tolerance from both you and the critic--I would like to maybe just explain where we are at right now. The fact that we are at 5.5 percent, we are looking at going through the process. The Parks Act was passed three years ago, and we still have not proclaimed the act basically because of the process of consultation in terms of establishing categories and classes of all the provincial parks in the province--and we have well over 100 of them.

So we are in that final process. We have gone out once. We have come back. We have compiled the information, and we are now going at the second round. We are looking at proclaiming The Parks Act, hopefully, in June or July--and I would have liked to have done it sooner. But once we do that, once we do the proclamation, it will give us an opportunity to identify certain provincial parks which would also qualify under the Endangered Spaces Program.

Further to that, my deputy and the federal deputy of parks have been working very diligently with groups, and we are looking at establishing a lowlands national park. The member is well aware--as I mentioned in my comments before--of the Wapusk National Park which is a tremendous undertaking out there in Churchill, but we are looking at establishing one in the lowlands area. A lot of progress, a lot of time has been taken on it, and it is actually a three-phased lowlands proposal that we are looking at--with Hecla not being part of it--but Black Island and certain islands in there which sort of would be the gateway to it, and then we would be looking at parts of Long Point and Limestone Point. So there are three different elements involved in that lowlands park which we hope the federal government is very receptive.

In talking to the past Minister of Parks, Sheila Copps, she was really on a fast schedule with it, and I certainly had no objection to it. I do not know whether that will change after we have the by-election at the federal level; but, certainly, she was very receptive to moving forward. I think we are still looking at the possibility of maybe having some announcement by the time of June or July when we can at least get into a Memorandum of Understanding for the lowlands park. So when you take the provincial parks and the potential national lowlands park, we think that our percentage is going to get up much higher again.

The challenge that we face, and I have to tell the member that, is that in the developed southern area it is very hard to establish because they want the same percentage preferably in each area, and in the developed agricultural area in the south we are limited in terms of how much land is available for the designation of this. We are working on programs under the wildlife management areas. We are looking at a series of options where we can maybe get some designations taking place. But the undertaking that I and my staff have basically given to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) is that we will try and see whether we can reach that. We have a commitment to reach the 12 percent by the year 2000.

Mr. Struthers: In order to meet that commitment by the year 2000 I would hope that staff within the Department of Natural Resources have been assigned to that task. What I would be interested in knowing for the upcoming budget year is, how many staff years would be designated to move towards that goal?

Mr. Driedger: We do not have designated specific people to take and just work with that. We basically have challenged the Parks department and the director, Gord Prouse, to take and make this a priority issue. Basically what is being done right now is, we develop the--looking forward to the proclamation of the parks act. Further to that, the activity that is taking place--I want to explain to the member, you cannot say, well, Joe Blow and one, two, three, four people are designated strictly to doing that. It is a broader picture in terms of many people have to play a role in this, because we have to have people from the Wildlife department, from the Fisheries department, from the Forestry department, components of everybody that plays with this, so it is hard to say, well, we have six people set aside who are dealing with endangered spaces. It is basically a generality where all the departments play a role with the Parks department basically co-ordinating it. So I charge not only my deputy but my director of Parks to take the responsibility of coming forward with options from me and the government to consider to reach that objective.

Mr. Struthers: My concern is that if we are going to meet the goal of 12 percent at the year 2000 and we are only at 5.5 percent today, we have had more years gone by to get not even halfway yet. We have got fewer years to go before we get to 2000. We still have to make up somewhere in there 6.5 percent if we are going to meet that goal. The minister has outlined that the southern part of the province is going to be tough for agricultural reasons. My suspicion is that maybe the first 5.5 percent would be the easiest 5.5 percent, that the last 6.5 percent is going to be tough, and we do not have an idea of who exactly it is in the department that is going to be moving us towards that goal.

I understand the minister's answer. I understand the problem that he may have, but I am concerned that we are not giving ourselves the chance to meet the goal of 12 percent by the year 2000. Maybe the minister would like to respond to that?

Mr. Driedger: The member is wrong when he says there is nobody in charge. There is definitely the director of Parks, who has been challenged with coming up with options for myself and for government to consider to make sure that we reach the 12 percent designation by that time. The member says, well, we have only reached 5.5 percent in this period of time, but I can tell you that a lot of work has been going on behind the scenes that is not obvious. I made reference to some of the more obvious ones, which are the National Lowlands Park and the designation of the classes and categories of provincial parks of which we have well over 100 of them. Those are just some of the things. But there is a lot of work that has been going on that has to take place.

From the time that the commitment was made--I have to tell you that we are well in the middle of the pack in terms of provinces across Canada, including the federal government, related to meeting our objective. I make no bones about it. I look to my deputy and my executive and my director to make sure that they come up with these options, and a lot of work is taking place right now. I alluded to, you know, the wildlife management areas, I alluded to other things which part of the lake system can be part of that system. So there is a lot of work going on. I have a comfort level that the 5.5 percent is--we are in a reasonable position at this point in time where we will be able to meet the 12 percent.

Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member--the member would have to have leave to ask questions from there for this bout of Estimates. We only received leave for the other Estimates.

Is there leave for the honourable member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) to ask his questions from the front row? Leave? Leave has been granted.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. I want to pursue the Linnet Graphics issue, and I would refer the minister to the Nordicity report which I tabled in the House today.

Every jurisdiction in Canada other than Manitoba has seen that base mapping is a public utility exercise, that there is no money to be made in the base map itself. Every other jurisdiction has recognized that. The reason that jurisdictions are willing to invest in base mapping activities at a high quality is that they are confident that development based on that public utility will far repay any investment in it. So every other province has now got high-quality base mapping in all of their developed areas and some limited base mapping of a high quality in some of the less developed areas of all of the provinces.

So I want to first ask the minister whether he accepts the proposition that Manitoba's existing base map is at a significantly lower quality and is significantly less complete than the base mapping utility in virtually any other jurisdiction in Canada. I would just caution him in answering that I am not making these statements on some presumed expertise personally, I am making these statements on the basis of industry people who have come to us from a wide variety of Manitoba industries, from smaller- to medium-sized companies. These companies have experience in all provinces in Canada, but particularly in western Canada, and they assert quite unequivocally that we have gone from average, middle of the pack or even a little bit above that in 1988 to bottom of the pack now and that our base map is significantly behind every other jurisdiction.

Mr. Driedger: Mr. Chairman, without trying to be argumentative , I take exception to the comments made by the member. He presented a report today, and I looked at the report and staff is analyzing it right now, but I want to challenge him and say that my information--and I am going to check that out. I will not just discard it, the comments that we are lagging behind the pack.

My information that has been given to me has been that we are the leaders in it. There are ongoing changes, depending on which way the member wants to look at it. For example, GPS has been playing a major role in terms of how information is being used and utilized. He made reference in his comments today in his press release that the identification of the surveying and establishing of the markers in the province was a very big issue. There is still a place for it, certainly, but not as dramatic anymore since GPS has come into the picture, depending on the kind of information that is basically wanted.

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I say that I will check into that and have staff clarify and have some of my key people, who are very qualified people who have been telling me that we are the leaders in terms of our Linnet organization and the kind of information that we are basically providing to other provinces that have desperately tried to set up this kind of a system on different lines over the years and have never accomplished it. We have finally hit that point where we are the leaders in this thing.

I will take his criticisms and his questions as to whether I agree or not very seriously and ask my people to basically respond and give me clarification as to where we are, because my information tells me--and right now I have a tendency to believe my staff. But I will have that confirmed by tomorrow morning. I will not leave this lay. An accusation of that nature, I take very seriously.

Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, if I could, through you, suggest to the minister that he talk directly with members of the Association of Manitoba Land Surveyors, with instructors in geomatics at Red River Community College, with the firms who do geomatics work in Manitoba, sometimes under contract to Linnet and sometimes under contract to municipalities and other organizations, and not rely on what I consider to be perhaps somewhat skewed information, which he might be getting from those who have a vested interest in defending decisions made in the past rather than looking at the real world of the future.

Let me also say that I think it is appalling that this minister does not apparently know about this study when his colleague, who is sitting right up behind him, the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey), commissioned this report through his department, and it was delivered to his department in July of last year. It was referred to at a meeting of geomatics purveyors of service at the University of Manitoba in the fall of last year, which is the first time that the industry association realized that this report existed, and it was provided to one member of that association on request in January of this year, of 1996.

So I think it is appalling that the minister does not apparently know about this study, or did not know about it, was not prepared to respond in some kind of detail to the very serious findings of the study. Let me go on to deal with some of those findings.

First of all, I would ask the minister if he could confirm the technical information that I have been given that essentially when you use the Linnet approach--which is to digitize what are called orthophotographs, which are essentially photographs that give depth as well as the picture of what is on the surface. They can be processed to provide elevation data. So that is what an orthophotograph is, apparently. Again, I am speaking from the information I have been given, not from personal knowledge.

When this information is digitized, Mr. Chairperson, the accuracy, the best accuracy you can get in the real world, not in the theoretical world of a laboratory, but in the real world is plus or minus 10 metres and sometimes it is as high as plus or minus 15 metres. Now the minister, I am sure, will appreciate that, for purposes of locating a gas pipeline or a utility corridor or even a street, plus or minus 10 to 15 metres is hardly an acceptable standard of accuracy. Can the minister confirm that that is his understanding of the accuracy level of digital orthophotography as the method for developing a base map?

Mr. Driedger: Mr. Chairman, the member says that he is appalled that he thinks that I was not aware of the report that he basically put forward today. He can be appalled all he likes, but I will tell you something, I was not aware of that report. I got that report today, and I turned it over to my staff and I am waiting for responses as to why it did not come to my attention and the impact of it.

The member has picked on a certain element of the Linnet organization, which basically I have tried to be relatively open in terms of bringing the information forward. That is why I had the briefing at the time and extended the invitation for the member to go down to Linnet and get all the information that you want. I do not even pretend to--he is talking technical questions here as to whether 10 metres this way or that way, whether I think that is accurate. I do not know. If the member wants to ask me specific questions whether I think that is adequate or not, I will take those questions as notice and get the information. I do not know the technical operations of Linnet.

My concern as minister responsible is that my deputy, who is a member of the board there, make sure that our interests as a government are represented in the 24 percent in a capable way and that the functions are proper and that the interests of Manitobans are being represented in a proper way and that the operations of Linnet move forward and accomplish basically what the guidelines or terms of reference have been set out for.

So the member can debate with me whether 10 metres this way or that way is accurate and whether I think it is proper. I do not know; I do not even pretend to know. If he wants to get into technical questions, please give me the questions, but I do not have that information. I will get the information; I definitely will.

Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I have asked the minister to ask his deputy and ask him right now, was the deputy aware of this study? If he was not aware of the study, what was he doing on the board? If he was aware of the study, why did he not tell his minister about it?

Mr. Driedger: Mr. Chairman, when I came--because I was given a copy today here in the House, my deputy did not give me a copy of that--I raised the questions with my deputy, as well as other people on the Land Information services, my director, basically, Jack Schreuder. We raised the issue with him less than an hour ago, right after Question Period. I said, what happened and give me a detailed report as to what this report basically says. The member thinks he has me at a disadvantage. That is his prerogative. I will take some minutes to get the answers of the information that he wants as soon as I have time to do that.

Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, the minister did not answer the question. Was Mr. Tomasson aware of the study? If Mr. Tomasson was not aware of the study, what is he doing on the board? If he was aware of the study, why did he not tell his minister? Would the minister please answer that question.

Mr. Driedger: Mr. Chairman, whether Mr. Tomasson, my deputy, was aware or not as being a member of the board, it was not Linnet that commissioned the report.

Point of Order

Mr. Sale: On a point of order, Mr. Chairperson, so that the record is very clear, Nordicity Group Ltd. had a policy discussion paper prepared for Linnet Geomatics International Inc. and Manitoba Industry, Trade and Tourism.

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable member did not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts.

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Mr. Driedger: Yes, Mr. Chairman, whether it is a point of order or not, I do not really care. I checked with my deputy. I do when I have to check with him, and I did. My deputy informs me that he was aware of the report, but he had not informed me of it because it was still being reviewed and no report had come forward to me.

Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, let me then again say that I find this an appalling situation. This report was tabled in July of 1995. This is now May of 1996. Any government that has had a study in its hands for that long on this critical an issue, that is as critical as this study is of a company in which the government has 24 percent ownership and has not brought that study to the attention of the minister responsible for the company, it seems to me we have got a serious problem here.

The minister ought to be seriously discussing with his colleague in Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey) why this paper was not given to him through that route and with his deputy minister why that paper was not given to him through that route, so that he is not embarrassed and unable to answer and unable to respond to very important questions within his ministry.

Mr. Driedger: Mr. Chairman, the view of the member when he says this is a critical situation, I cannot see anything critical about it. In fact, I am very comfortable that the operations of Linnet are very well on stream, that they are doing a tremendous job. And the member, if he decides to take a different tangent on it, that is his prerogative. I repeat again, if he wants to take and put technical questions on the record, I will get the information, but I am not in a position and I do not make any apologies for it. I do not have all the technical information that is required of every one of my groups and boards that I have. I am there to be the general policy maker, and I work on that principle. I at the present time have a comfort level that with my deputy being a member of that board that we are accomplishing what has been set out to be and that we are looking after the interests of Manitobans.

* (1720)

Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I have asked but one technical question, and that was the level of accuracy in the photograph transmission into digitized form. I appreciate the minister's commitment to get information about whether that is an acceptable level of accuracy in other provincial base map standards. I have not asked any other technical questions. They have been, obviously, purely policy questions in regard to how he runs his department. I am very concerned that the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism, the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey), did not see fit to share a study that deeply affected a company in which the Minister of Natural Resources has a fiduciary responsibility, if you want to make it that, in terms of ownership of 24 percent of the shares at Linnet. I think we clearly have a textbook case of a conflict here in which the interests of the department in maintaining Linnet's pre-eminent position here are at odds with the interests of the public in having a quality database that is accessible to all Manitobans.

I bring the minister's attention to page 8 of the study and ask if he would respond to the assertion that is made on the lower part of page 8 that the number of private sector employees in Manitoba appears to be significantly lower than the national average, and the table on the next page shows that we run at about one-third of the national average in Manitoba.

I would also point out to the minister that these data are not the most current data in the world, that we have fallen further behind in the interim.

Mr. Driedger: Mr. Chairman, since I received the report, I glanced at that element of it, as well. I will take that question as notice and provide proper detail.

You know, the member can play politics if that is all he wants, but it is not an issue that is going to get many people excited. I still feel very strongly responsible for making sure that it is operating right.

However, I want to ask the member, aside from wanting to play politics with this issue, why he did not take the opportunity to avail himself of all the detailed information as to how Linnet was operating when that opportunity was given, and that opportunity is still there. In fact, less than two hours ago, I talked to the CEO. I said, listen, Mr. CEO, Bruce Graham, is that opportunity still there for people to come, and will you take the time to explain exactly what has happened and how we compare? This is after the member raised questions in the House. He says, anytime.

So if you want to play politics with it, that is fine. I can live with that, as well. I still extend the invitation to you to take that opportunity. If it is a matter of seeing whether you can embarrass me with how much you know about the issue, that is your liberty, as well.

Mr. Sale: I thank the minister for repeating the invitation. The minister very kindly made available to all of us a very detailed briefing in which Linnet was given every opportunity to make its best case for over two hours.

They also kindly provided us and the minister provided us with a copy of its overheads from that presentation which gave us a very clear view of what Linnet was accomplishing, and I would suggest to the minister that, again, if he wants to find out what is going on in this sector, he is a shareholder in a company that has a very great interest in keeping his good will.

If he is serious about his duty to Manitobans, he needs to talk to some of the competition. The competition will tell you that some firms have been driven out of business by predatory pricing on the part of Linnet. We talk about a firm in Brandon, for example, on a project in Brandon, in which Brandon was muscled into using Linnet in a way which they were not particularly interested in doing. We talk about other companies that cannot get work in Manitoba and instead get work elsewhere.

You talk about playing politics. What I am playing here is the interest of companies to have employment and to be able to have career paths for young Manitobans, and when the majority of the industry, which is a small business industry, comes to a party that this government often describes as unfriendly to business, in error of course, but describes that way, when virtually a whole industry sector comes to us and says, we are dying because of this government's monopoly policy with Linnet, then it is not a question of playing politics. It is a question of the interests and needs of many Manitoba companies which are trying to survive in a very important sector in a global market. They are trying to become experts, and they are trying to make Manitoba a proud home of competitive geomatics industry companies.

That is not happening under this policy. It has not happened. In fact, we are going backwards. This is not a question of playing politics. Of course, in this forum we are debating political issues, but in this issue we are debating a failure of a policy that has led to loss of jobs, loss of opportunity, some firms going bankrupt and others teetering on the edge.

So if you want to investigate this I would suggest to the minister that he not just talk to his friends in Linnet and not just talk to those people who gave us a very fine briefing. I have no problem with Linnet becoming a global competitor, but I do have a problem with Linnet putting other companies out of business and creating a framework in which, for example, this report talks about the need to continue investing in the development of open and shared information resources. They are not open and shared. An observation emerging from interviews was that the complexity and cost associated with securing access to information may be one of the most significant barriers.

It goes on to talk about, assuming Manitoba takes timely and effective steps to remove systemic development barriers, the growth of Geomatics in Manitoba could, for example. It uses the future tense about the possibilities in this market, not the current or the past tense. It says that if we got our act together we might be able to. So I invite the minister to recognize that we did spend some time with Linnet, significant time. We read all the material. We read all the contracts, but we have also talked with the rest of the industry.

I would ask the minister, have you talked with the rest of the industry candidly about the situation of Geomatics in Manitoba, and will you do so before you respond to this very devastating study?

Mr. Driedger: Now I have a better idea of where the member is coming from because he is basically talking about the mom-and-pop operations out there, the smaller operators who feel--I do not agree necessarily--but who feel that they are being hard done by by Linnet. I can also tell the member, and I want to ask him that if he can maybe bring forward to me how many people have raised a concern about that, I know there are individuals that possibly have been but can also tell you that there are more people who are mom-and-pop operations out there that basically have jobs because of Linnet, because of the information base that they are establishing. They are using that to take and create jobs for themselves. This issue has been an issue that has been debated pro and con a long time, and I ask the member, in all fairness and all honesty, to tell me, because there is a meeting taking place at the university right now with some of these people, the member is aware of that as well, and I would like to know how many people have a grave concern and how many are on the positive side of the information basically and the work that they have gotten because of Linnet and the way it operates right now with their database.

It is my impression, because of the information that is available, that many more people have opportunities based on the contracts that Linnet is landing, that have job opportunities because of Linnet that would not have jobs otherwise.

I ask again, if there are issues out there concerning mom-and-pop operations who feel they are hard done by, I would like to have those.

Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I find the minister's terminology really derogatory and patronizing. These mom-and-pop operations, as you talk about, maintain businesses that employ significant numbers of people. They are not mom-and-pop operations, they are partnerships in a professional area.

Yes, there are some small businesses, as this study has found. Geomatics in Canada is in an infancy sector and on average it does have less than 12 people per firm, but to suggest that Pollock and Wright, for example, is a mom-and-pop shop, I think Pollock and Wright might not be terribly impressed to hear.

The real issue here is that the underlying approach that has been used, that is, the digitizing of these photographs, cannot pass for an accurate base map. There is real danger involved in using this approach and selling it as though it accurately represents reality, because there are many places in rural Manitoba where the digital orthophotograph representation is out by a very significant number of feet. We are not talking in this case about 30 or 40 feet, but a matter of several hundred feet in some situations.

You cannot overlay then what is called the cadastral or legal map on that digitized base because essentially you have taken a very accurate and necessarily accurate map that is accurate within a matter of centimetres and overlaid it on a database so it is not accurate within feet. You cannot do it.

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please.

The hour being 5:30 p.m., committee rise.

Call in the Speaker.

IN SESSION

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Marcel Laurendeau): The hour being 5:30 p.m., this House is now adjourned and stands adjourned until tomorrow at 1:30 p.m. (Wednesday).

Good night.