Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the acting First Minister.

The government announced last week another study on special education. As the Education critic has pointed out, the government has received a number of studies over the last number of years dealing with special needs and special needs in special education.

Madam Speaker, just over two years ago the government received a copy of the Healthy Child report chaired by Dr. Postl. It contained page after page of not only recommendations of what the government can do but also some criticisms about what the government had been doing in terms of cutting back and reducing services to children.

I would like to ask the government, will it be implementing the recommendations on special needs that are contained within the Postl report, embraced by the Premier (Mr. Filmon) during the election campaign, or are we going to see another drift and cut by this provincial government when it announced another study on the issue?

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Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): The study that we are doing currently on special needs review will be looking in the classrooms and into the particular treatment and services that students are currently receiving in the schools.

I should point out that amongst things that have already been done in terms of the whole child, through the Child and Youth Secretariat money has now been made available to the school divisions from the Department of Health for the purchase of services such as nursing, et cetera, within the schools. As well, money has been transferred over through Family Services for the training of paraprofessionals in the classrooms that school divisions can now make themselves available of to help with services to students that are not educational in nature but physical in nature.

Those kinds of initiatives have been underway now for about a year. The special needs review will indicate to us what within our current system in the schools needs to be changed or built upon. We look forward to that and have every intention of moving forward on recommendations in that regard.

Mr. Doer: We have a report that deals with special needs, and it talks about preschool children and then it talks about the impact of the cutbacks of the provincial government on speech services, on language services. It talks about the impact on the waiting lists already in the special needs in the special education program in the school divisions.

So I would like to ask whoever is in charge over there, or if there is anybody over there that cares about kids, are you going to implement the recommendations contained within the Postl report so we can give our kids some hope instead of just idle words that we get from the minister across the way?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the honourable Leader of the Opposition has singled out the issue of speech language and speech services for children, and I remind the honourable member that in the city of Brandon, for example, the New Democrats, without any thought for the future whatsoever, shut down dozens and dozens of hospital beds back in 1987 for no particular reason except to save money. In 1996, when ideas are floated by New Democrats in Brandon that speech therapy services are expected to be shut down--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would like to ask the honourable Minister of Health to respond to the question asked. I am not sure that his remarks relate specifically to the question.

Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I had thought that the honourable Leader of the Opposition was trying to get an understanding of which direction the government was going. That was what I was attempting to address.

When the New Democrats floated the idea in Brandon that perhaps we should shut down speech language services for children at Brandon General Hospital, I have been consistent on that point. We simply will not authorize such a shutdown unless and until it can be shown that services can be provided for children in some other setting if necessary but that services be provided nonetheless. So the honourable members, they ask a question and they do not want to hear the answer because they expected something far more negative than that.

Mr. Doer: This government tragically cuts services to kids, then it studies it, then they cut more services to kids and then they have a press conference to say they are going to study them, then they cut more services to kids and give us an answer that is totally off the topic.

I asked a very specific question twice. Are you going to implement the Postl report recommendations on special needs kids? The Postl report documents that the waiting list has gone up dramatically for preschool kids and kids in schools because of the cutbacks of this government on audiological services and speech services.

I am asking the government, now that the waiting list has gone up even higher and greater for those young kids in our province after this government has had the Postl report for two years, are we going to see the government implement the recommendations on special needs kids or are they going to cynically say they are going to study it while they go ahead and cut services to kids, Madam Speaker?

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Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition chooses to forget that it was some months ago, through the auspices of the Child and Youth Secretariat set up because of the Postl report, that hundreds of thousands of dollars were transferred from the Department of Health to the Department of Education to be used for services provided to special needs children and to be used for training for those who do provide services to special needs children.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, in July of 1996 Children's Special Services told a constituent of mine, Mr. Hodge, that funding has been cut for respite services by some 25 percent. Parents of disabled children have received in writing notification of these cuts. Yet the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) claims there has been no cut in respite care. Who is lying or who is telling the truth, the Minister of Family Services--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would ask the honourable member for Crescentwood to retract the word "lying."

Mr. Sale: I retract the word.

Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable member for Crescentwood.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, who is telling the truth, the Minister of Family Services or her staff?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, again I thank my honourable friend for the question, not the tone or the preamble in the way he presented it in a very unprofessional manner but in order to clarify to all Manitobans that indeed there is more money for Children's Special Services this year in the budget than there was last year, and some families have had some reduction in their respite services so that we could provide more services to some families that have been waiting. There is more money--[interjection]

Madam Speaker, there is not a cut in financial resources. There was a reduction in some families of respite care in order to provide services to some families that were not receiving services.

I do want to indicate to Manitobans and to you, Madam Speaker, that in fact we are reviewing the whole issue of special needs in the Department of Family Services, and we are hoping to come up with some resolutions in the very near future.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Crescentwood, with a supplementary question.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the Premier (Mr. Filmon), or whoever is acting over there, instruct the minister to restore respite services to all parents needing such services, including Mr. Hodge, who writes, and I quote: I am at a breaking point; I am struggling and only able to work half-time due to the effects of a bone marrow transplant?

I will table this letter, Madam Speaker.

Will somebody over there get services back to these children?

Mrs. Mitchelson: What all Manitobans need to know is that in fact we have an ever-increasing demand for the services, for Children's Special Services. We have year after year put more money into the system, into Children's Special Services, than was there the year before, but it is very difficult to meet the demand.

We are just now undertaking a total review of the whole program, and we recognize and realize that families who are caring for children with special needs at home are putting a lot of time, effort and energy into those children through their families. Madam Speaker, we want to try to do what is right and what is best for those families, and we are working on it.

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Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, will the minister, who has now admitted that there have been cuts to services in specific families, admit that in general the Postl report, and specifically on page 137 of that report which she has had for over two years, gives a very clear direction to safeguard the needs of families in regard to respite care and other care for children with very special needs?

Will she now admit that her government has had this report for two years? It says, go this way, and the government has been going this way unceasingly for two years now.

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Again, I repeat that we have put more money into services for special needs children year over year, and it just never seems to be enough. There are ever-increasing demands, and we all know that children are being born today and are living today that would not have lived in years past.

Madam Speaker, there is an ever-increasing demand and a need for support--[interjection]

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I guess my honourable friend in the opposition believes he is the only person who cares about children.

Madam Speaker, I want to tell you that our government cares very much about the families and children who need our support. There is nowhere in my department--[interjection]

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable Minister of Family Services, to complete her response.

Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

There is no other area within my department that has received an increase in support year after year, and it is in the area of children with special needs, Children's Special Services and services for those that are mentally disabled. We will continue to place our energy and our efforts to try to meet the demand as it arises, and we all know that there is an ever-increasing demand.

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, when families with children with special needs heard the minister say in the Chamber on September 25 that there have been no cuts and an increase in budget, they were truly astonished.

I would table a copy of the July 29 letter that was sent out to hundreds of parents with children with special needs informing them of reduced hours for respite workers. In fact, the recipient of this letter had her hours reduced by 37 percent.

I would like to ask the minister how she can tell parents that there has been an increase in the budget when they are receiving these letters informing them of less hours. Whom are they to believe, this minister or the front-line workers who signed these letters?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, again I say that there is more money in the budget for children with special services than there ever has been in the past. It is very difficult to meet the increasing demand. What happened, in fact, was that some families were reduced in respite hours in order to give other families that needed that very critical support the opportunity to have some support for respite.

I would not want to mislead anyone in Manitoba to say that there is not an increasing demand for more resources. I indicated earlier we are reviewing the whole program, and I hope to be able to assure all Manitobans that need that kind of support that it will be there in the future.

Mr. Martindale: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the minister how she can explain her rationale for an apparent increase--which we believe is a decrease--when the director of the Children and Youth Secretariat, Mr. Reg Toews, said that these cuts in respite hours are due to the new realities of balanced budget legislation and the resulting cash squeeze to departments.

Who is right here, this senior civil servant or this minister?

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Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, again I repeat, because I think my honourable friend has some difficulty in hearing and understanding, that there is more money. We all know that there are ever-increasing demands as children are born with more special needs and are surviving today because of increased technology when in years past they would not have survived. Families are committed to ensuring that they keep those children in their families, and there is an ever-increasing demand for resource. We believe as a government that these are the kinds of families that we need to support.

We are reviewing the program as we speak, and I am hoping that we will be able to assure families that are putting the time, the effort and the energy into keeping their children at home and working with them that we can provide that kind of support.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Burrows, with a final supplementary question.

Mr. Martindale: I would like to ask the minister how she expects us and parents with children with special needs who are having their hours cut that she is taking a review of all the services when just last week a parent who contacted us signed a new contract with fewer hours--whom do we believe, this minister or what is actually happening to parents with children with special needs in the community who are getting fewer hours?

Mrs. Mitchelson: I had the opportunity to meet with several families earlier this year just at the end of the summer around the services for children with special needs. They have agreed and want to work with government to help us understand the kinds of needs that are out there and how we can use the resources that we have in a more efficient and effective way to serve their needs. I would prefer to work with the families of children that have special needs to find the solutions than to listen to the rhetoric from the opposition.

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, I am going to table two things first: First, a letter to the minister from July 2 confirming a request for information on the financing of services for children and youth and, second, a copy of Hansard from June 6 when she said: "I will undertake to get that information and provide it to my honourable friend."

That information is the information we are inquiring about in the financing of services for children and youth.

I want to ask the minister will she keep her word, will she be accountable and when will she complete this endeavour and provide that information to this House?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I will be very open and forthright with my honourable friend and indicate to her that we are, through the Child and Youth Secretariat, co-ordinating services between the Department of Education, the Department of Justice, the Department of Health, through recreation in the Department of Culture and my Department of Family Services. There has been a lot of ongoing activity through the Child and Youth Secretariat, and as we move through the process of making changes and restructuring our programs, I certainly will share that information with my honourable friend.

Ms. Cerilli: Madam Speaker, I am going to table two other documents. One is from a report, Children First: Restructuring Services, called Extracting 2%, and the second is a page from the '94 to '95 report from the Children and Youth Secretariat which says--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Radisson was recognized for a supplementary question which requires no preamble. Please pose your question now.

Ms. Cerilli: I will ask the minister to explain the quote in this report which says: The secretariat has completed the first cut of identifying the financial resources in each department that are spent in responding to the needs of children and youth.

Will she explain that sentence in the document from her secretariat?

Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, I believe that sentence would indicate that the Child and Youth Secretariat has their first indication of the resources that are being provided from all different departments to support children and youth and that that is exactly the intent of that statement and that, in fact, as that identification is passed on to us as government and to departments, it will help us to better co-ordinate and ensure that there is efficient and effective delivery of the services for children and youth in Manitoba.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Radisson, with a final supplementary question.

Ms. Cerilli: Will the minister confirm or deny that the secretariat is looking at all the funding for children and services in the government so they can prioritize which services they are going to cut, and will she tell the House now which other children and youth services are going to be cut by this government?

Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, I have said on many, many occasions that in order to use the resources that we have for children and families in the most efficient and effective way governments are going to have to have the courage to look at what programs are working and what programs are not working. In fact, if there are programs that are not working, we are going to have to redirect resources into areas that are going to better serve children and families. I make no apologies for making that statement. One of the roles of the Children and Youth Secretariat in fact is to look at outcomes of programs that we fund presently and if they are not working, redirect those resources into the most appropriate programs.

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Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Madam Speaker, my first question is for the Minister responsible for the Status of Women.

I would like to table for the minister a copy of the jury recommendations from the Chahal murder inquest in Abbotsford, B.C. For those not familiar with the case, Mr. Chahal murdered nine people with a firearm, including his estranged wife. The coroner's inquest into the tragic event has come with some important recommendations.

Will the minister agree, Recommendation 19, which would require the federal Minister of Justice to mandate that spouses or ex-spouses, partners or ex-partners be required references on firearm acquisition certificate applications, if adopted, would be a significant step forward in the battle to lessen violence against women?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister responsible for the Status of Women): Madam Speaker, our government is particularly concerned about the area of violence against women. In this report, I will be very interested to look into what the recommendations are. However, just for the member's information, he may know in Manitoba we already have a registry; I do not believe that registry is in fact available in B.C., and so, when an individual applies for an FAC, any restraining orders or other such orders that would be important in the protection of women are available both for the person doing the investigation of the FAC, also available 24 hours a day to police. So Manitoba in fact itself has acted, and we will be interested to see if the federal government also acts.

Mr. Kowalski: Will the Minister of Justice mandate a provincial investigation policy, since no policy currently exists, that would require police forces in Manitoba issuing FACs to ask spouses or ex-partners if they believe an FAC should be issued?

Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, as I said, it is a very interesting proposal that has come forward which requires or would require a spouse to give some comment as to whether or not someone could receive an FAC, but at the moment, because the federal government of course will have to look at some of these recommendations, I think it is very important for the member to be well aware of the system within Manitoba now which does deal with things such as restraining orders and I believe has been very helpful in terms of the checking for the granting of an FAC because it is very clear right away whether or not there is some cause for concern on behalf of the person who is applying for the FAC. Now we know that system will in fact be removed beginning in early January and, as he knows, our province has taken a position on that. The federal government should administer the system.

Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Will the minister commit to her view of the provincial firearms acquisition policies, one that includes representation from women's organizations and police forces rather than waiting till tragedy like what happened in B.C. happens in Manitoba?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister responsible for the Status of Women): Well, Madam Speaker, our government supports all areas which in fact deal with public safety and we have spoken up very strongly in matters of public safety, particularly in the area of Bill C-68. I would be interested to know, however, if the member from The Maples, a member of the Liberal Party, will also speak up on behalf of women, because it has been the position of this government that within the Criminal Code we should not be dealing only with additional sentences for the use of a firearm, but that we should in fact be dealing with additional sentences for the use of a weapon. We have never had support from the provincial Liberal Party on that matter. That is the issue that really deals with safety for women.

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Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, 90 percent of Manitoba adolescents keep their babies, and when an adolescent has a child, there are two lost children. In response, the Postl report recommended that, and here I quote, renewed emphasis be directed to the prevention of adolescent pregnancy and that one of the principal sites should be the school system.

The Youth Secretariat's June report on adolescent pregnancy agreed and yet late in 1996 there are more and more lost pregnant children in Manitoba. I want to ask the Minister of Education exactly what her department has done in order to ensure that there are fewer lost children in Manitoba, and how long must our children wait before she implements the recommendations of Dr. Postl and the Youth Secretariat.

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I am fascinated by the tone of the questions in Question Period today. I think it reveals a tremendous amount how threatened the other side feels by a popular initiative, an important initiative that we have undertaken.

I indicate that, after a prolonged period of time in which the opposition demanded that we go into a study in the special needs in education in Manitoba, saying that we were taking too long to get around to doing the study, we now have announced the study. They want us to immediately stop doing that study and direct our attention back to an area in which we have already begun implementation. So I am a little perplexed.

I would indicate to the member, however, that she has identified a very important issue and in the establishment of the Child and Youth Secretariat--and I know they do not want to hear this, but I think it is a very important thing that they hear--when we look at the whole child, and we finally have put together something that should have been in place decades ago in Manitoba, a co-ordinated effort between the Departments of Education, Health, Family Services and Justice, so that we deal with the whole child and not just pieces of the child, that looking at the child from birth also leads us to looking at how children are born with fetal alcohol syndrome and other problems, necessitates work during pregnancy and before pregnancy, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Osborne, with a supplementary question.

Ms. McGifford: Madam Speaker, turning to the Minister of Health: Since Postl also recommends that Manitoba Health promote the co-ordination of comprehensive supports for adolescent parents, I want to ask the Minister of Health for details of his department's comprehensive supports for adolescent parents, and I wonder how long adolescents and newborn children have to wait before he acts on the Postl report.

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the honourable member speaks again in favour of the recommendations that we are acting on now in Health to reintegrate, to reorganize our health system province-wide to take account of the needs that exist in our communities. I think heretofore there have been problems with getting our programs integrated and rationalized and working together and getting people working together. I think the opportunities are very good there for us to develop, through our long-term and community health agency that we are going to build in the city of Winnipeg and through our regional health authorities throughout Manitoba, to do a better job for people province-wide. I am glad to know that the honourable member would be supportive of those kinds of moves.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Osborne, with a final supplementary question.

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, in view of the Minister of Health's nonanswer and considering the Premier's (Mr. Filmon) election promise to put children first and provide, and here I quote, community-based co-ordination prevention and early intervention for adolescent pregnancy, I want to ask the Premier exactly what his government has done in answer to the tragedy of pregnant adolescents.

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, indeed, the issue of adolescent pregnancy is one that is very high on the public's mind and high on our mind as government, but I want to say that government alone cannot solve the problem. It is going to take a community effort, and it is going to take many working together to try to find the answers to adolescent pregnancy.

Yes, today 90 percent of adolescents that are having babies are choosing to keep those babies when 20 years ago, 90 percent of those parents chose adoption as an option, Madam Speaker. The whole review of our Child and Family Services Act deals very proactively with bringing our adoption legislation into the '90s and ensuring that that is a very positive and proactive alternative to choosing to parent.

There are many things that are ongoing. We look at the Andrews Street Family Centre which has a moms helping moms program. There are community organizations out there and volunteers that have to be involved in finding the solutions. It will not be government alone that finds the answers.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): My question is to the Minister of Justice. It was a number of years ago that the British Columbia government established its youth advisory council, now comprised of about 25 B.C. youth, which became extremely successful developing some of the most creative and effective antiviolence programs in all North America. It also gave input into government programs, not just in areas of justice.

My question for the minister is: Could the minister, who announced a youth advisory council for Manitoba based on B.C.'s model at a highly touted news conference over two and a half years ago, tell Manitobans how many meetings her council has held?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): The member said this was based specifically on B.C.'s model. I do not believe that was a comment. However, we do have in Manitoba a Provincial Council on Youth Crime, and the provincial council is there to provide some expertise to youth justice committees that are operating throughout the province.

But I am particularly interested in his comments about youth making recommendations to government about a particular initiative because when youth and the initiative of street peace came forward the member simply was nothing but dismissive about that program, totally dismissive, and yet we had young people who worked on that program. So we have him now saying that he would like to see that. When he did see that several years ago he did not like it at all.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, with a supplementary question.

Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister, who should get a grip on what this side of the House says, who told this House, and I quote, the purpose of the youth advisory council--which is what we are talking about--was to say that the government took very seriously the input of young people, admit that her failing to ensure so much as one meeting of this council in over two and a half years says the very opposite?

Mrs. Vodrey: The member has certainly been wrong before. I think we see another opportunity where the member is wrong again. However, I would like to address the point of the fact--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mrs. Vodrey: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I would like to however address the fact that we have named members to our Provincial Council on Youth Crime. The member seems to confuse that consistently. He has--

An Honourable Member: Oh, that is a shame.

Mrs. Vodrey: Pardon me.

An Honourable Member: You are mixed up.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mrs. Vodrey: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The member has consistently confused exactly who is on this committee. This advisory council is made up of professionals in the field. It is made up of individuals who have a special interest in dealing with concerns around youth crime and violence. The committee was structured so that it could provide support to youth justice committees across the province when they require expertise in certain matters such as mediation or working with families.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, with a final supplementary question.

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, perhaps, could the minister who a year and a half after she announced the Youth Advisory Council, which is a youth group, not her Provincial Council on Youth Crime where two of the nine members happen to be youth that deal with the youth justice committee--she is mixed up, Madam Speaker--but after she reported that, she reported back to the House the astounding and I think belated observation, at least by her, that, and I quote: We have been able to find leadership among the youth.

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Madam Speaker: Order, please. Will the honourable member for St. Johns please pose his question now.

Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister who announced a year and a half after she announced her council that, and I quote: We have been able to find leadership among the youth--how much longer do we have to wait until she decides what to do with it? When is she going to get it together? How much longer do youth have to wait in this province?

Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, well, now the member finally agrees to the fact that the entity does exist, that there is the Provincial Council on Youth Crime, because, as he has identified correctly, yes, there are two youth who have been leaders within their community who do sit on that committee and do provide the youth perspective. I think that this certainly is a very good start.

However, we have seen a number of initiatives by youth that the member across the way has continually been dismissive of. We have seen Street Peace, the youth gang line. We have seen the projects that were done by youth over a period of time, some included plays and marches within their communities to deal with the area of youth gang and violence--the member completely ignored them. In fact, I think that was another area that he said that did not even occur. So we always see the member across the way with his eyes closed and his ears closed; he is always totally out of touch with the issue.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, health care facilities have been trying to get information from the Minister of Health regarding the expropriation of retainable surpluses. In fact, Swan River Valley Hospital wrote to the minister on May 11 but got no information from this minister; however, we are told now, they were told at a meeting, that the retainable surpluses will be utilized provincially to fund the interim administration structure of the regional health board.

Why is the minister not responding to the health facilities to explain this, and why is he punishing those facilities which lived within the guidelines and built up surpluses and are expecting to have those surpluses to use within their facilities?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): There was some discussion about this matter last summer, Madam Speaker. The honourable member and others raised that matter then. There was some displeasure with that policy and there were some discussions that flowed as a result of some direction given by myself. As for the outcome, I will ascertain that and share that with the honourable member.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Swan River, with a supplementary question.

Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, I think we know the answer. The surpluses are being used. Will the minister explain why he is punishing those facilities which lived within his guidelines and this government's guidelines and built surpluses and now is treating them unfairly? These people should be rewarded for their--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.

Mr. McCrae: This is not about punishment, Madam Speaker. The honourable member is still thinking about a time that existed 40 or 50 years ago. We are in the '90s now. We are here to try to look after the patients that we have in our system, and whatever arrangements are arrived at from the standpoint of Manitoba Health, it will be a focus on patient.

The honourable member has a focus still on buildings and on beds and on bricks and on mortar and those sorts of things. I would invite her and her colleagues to get with the program which puts the patient first.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.