Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair--[interjection] I understand there are some difficulties being experienced by the opposition in terms of the critic for Environment not being available this afternoon. The honourable opposition House leader and I have had some brief discussions. That was not made known to me a few minutes ago when we discussed it. I think prior to beginning Estimates, we may have to adjourn the House for a few minutes this afternoon. So I suggest we recess the House for 10 minutes.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Just to explain. I think part of the confusion came because I did raise the question as to whether we should be sitting at all. We are in the situation now where there are several ministers, several MLAs who are being called out for flood-related emergencies. Given the fact we had already scheduled Estimates this afternoon, the suggestion was to go into Finance, because I know the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) and the Finance critic are here, also Consumer and Corporate Affairs, which we could consider this afternoon.

I would also suggest, Madam Speaker--and I know there have been various discussions back and forth between the government House leader--we should I think assess what happens tomorrow. On a daily basis we are seeing a more rapid flood crest than was expected. People are being called out into their constituencies, and I think we all realize, too, that should be the top priority. I think our intent this week has been to try and operate as much as possible, but we have run into a situation today where there are several ministers out sandbagging, several critics. So what I would suggest we do, if we do that this afternoon, is assess tomorrow morning prior to ten o'clock and leave open the possibility of not sitting tomorrow and assessing that on a daily basis.

I want to indicate that, from the official opposition's standpoint, we are quite prepared to do that, not only not to sit but to reallocate any time that might be lost from the calendar plus set a calendar to another time whether it be Estimates or bills. So that is my suggestion--Finance and Consumer and Corporate Affairs today, and then let us assess tomorrow morning whether we even in fact sit tomorrow morning.

Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, those comments are helpful. Indeed, the honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) and I did discuss the potential of discussing the Estimates related to the Department of Finance. It was not made clear to me that that would happen instead of the Environment department, and I believe, having checked with the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), that would be acceptable.

I am always available and have been and so is the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) for discussions on how we might carry on the work of the House at a time when members do indeed need to be away. The key to all of this is indeed working together in co-operation, and that has been evidenced by honourable members in the New Democratic Party and the Liberal Party and by members on this side of the House as well.

So what the honourable member is suggesting, Madam Speaker, would call for an adjustment to the order of Estimates filed in the House on March 27 such that the Estimates for the Department of Finance would be moved from the committee and into the House. That would interrupt the proceedings with respect to the Department of Environment and move that down on the list after Finance. So I think that describes what needs to happen. Is that clear enough for the table?

Madam Speaker: Is there leave to have the Department of Finance Estimates moved from the committee outside the Chamber into the Chamber? [agreed]

Mr. McCrae: I thank the honourable member for that and apologize for any confusion, but it had been my clear understanding that it would have been something different from what we are talking about now. This is just fine, because we do have a very co-operative Minister of Finance and that is very helpful, and it is especially helpful at this time in Manitoba. With the accommodations that we are making, it should indeed be possible for us to carry on with the business of the people in this House while honourable members such as yourself, Madam Speaker, can be available to constituents, which is vitally necessary just about now.

So I move, seconded by the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck) in the Chair for the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs; and the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) in the Chair for the Department of Finance.

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Madam Speaker: As the Deputy Speaker is unavailable, the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) will be chairing the Committee of Supply in the Chamber, and the honourable member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck) will be acting as Chair of the Committee of Supply outside the Chamber.

When the committee last sat it had been considering item 2.(b) Residential Tenancies on page 25 of the Estimates book.

Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Chairman, I believe that as we adjourned last night my honourable colleague had asked me a question with regard to disposition of issues, the relationship between a landlord and a tenant in situations of domestic violence. I believe that my response I had perhaps formulated but not got on the record was that my honourable colleague had posed that if there were two individuals, male and female who had signed a lease, one of the tenants was to go to the landlord and to say, I cajole you, I plead with you not to let the other tenant have access to the property because of domestic violence or apprehension thereof, what was the status of the law at the present time?

My response to that is that at the present time, barring any restraint order, the landlord is obliged to give equal access to both signatories to the lease. If there is an individual in the flat who is not a signatory to the lease but rather a resident only, then I believe that the tenant signatory would have the authority to advise the landlord to bar somebody from the premises, but the way to ensure any sort of security in a situation like this would be to get a restraint order.

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): In this kind of a situation involving domestic violence, what the minister is saying is that the victim must get a restraining order, and yet the earlier question, it was going to be up to the victim to then inform the landlord. That was the other question, that it was up to the woman to inform the landlord, and that would still hold true that then once the restraining order--and that is the only way that there would be any legal recourse to prevent the entry of the abusive partner into the apartment.

So there must be a restraining order, and then it is up to the victim to then take that restraining order and show it to the landlord in order to have the person who is, according to the lease agreement, justified to have entry into the suite to not have that happen?

Mr. Radcliffe: I would agree with most of what my honourable colleague has said; however, I would add to her remarks that my knowledge of the zero tolerance application of the law nowadays is that if a partner or a person in a domestic violence situation calls the police, the police are obliged to attend. If, on an initial scrutiny, it is apparent to the police that any violence has occurred or that there is any apprehension of violence that is about to occur they must take the offending person into custody, and that person is then released on conditions.

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My experience, although brief with this branch of domestic law before I left private practice, was that if there was a domestic situation where two partners were living together, the person would be released from custody on the understanding that the presiding magistrate would order that that person not attend at the residential premises where the alleged victim was found, and so these would be interim orders until such time as the charges were disposed of before the court. So you can often have up to three or four months before one of these charges can work its way through the whole Provincial Judges Court process. During that interval both individuals would be functioning under an order of the Provincial Judges Court magistrate. The resident tenant alleged victim could then take a copy of those conditions of release, share that with the landlord and that would be, I would think, sufficient justification for a landlord to deny somebody access to an apartment and, in fact, further, call the police to have somebody barred from the premises and to have the balance of the Crown offered to protect any supposed victim.

Ms. Cerilli: So if all that occurred in the scenario that the minister has just described, then the landlord would have the responsibility for ensuring that locks are changed and keys are made for the tenant to ensure that the abusive partner does not have access to the suite.

That is the first part of the question. The second part is if all this scenario occurred, as the minister has just described, and a landlord still allowed the abusive partner into the unit, what could be the consequences legally to that landlord?

Mr. Radcliffe: I believe I should correct the record because I do not know, and I do not want to leave on the record any remarks that might be imputed to me to say that there is a positive obligation on the part of the landlord to actually change locks. That might well be, and it makes common sense, what my honourable colleague has mentioned, but I do not know that there has been judicial interpretation on that, and so I would hesitate to say that that is the status of the law.

With regard to the second question posed by my honourable colleague, I would say to that that if a landlord knowingly flouted or assisted in enabling an individual to flout an order of the Provincial Judges Court, there is due process which is to haul that landlord into Provincial Judges Court on a contempt motion and have the landlord answerable to the magistrate with regard to the security of the person at question.

Ms. Cerilli: This could be for some very interesting cases if that kind of situation occurred and there were injuries or even death to a tenant after a restraining order or even police reports were made, and the landlord did allow access to the unit, and if then charges could be laid against a landlord in terms of assisting in an assault.

I am not sure of the legal terms that would be used, the types of charges that would be laid, but I think that these are probably scenarios that not everyone has thought through, and I know that the other day, when we were discussing this yesterday, you did say that this would now be included in the training and information that goes forward for landlords and for tenants to make sure that they know of their responsibilities in this area. So I think that this has been a worthwhile exchange.

Mr. Radcliffe: I can add to my honourable colleague's remarks that I have been a solicitor in some of these cases where, in fact, women have been shot, clients of mine in situations like this, so that I have had a working knowledge of it and feel quite intensely about some of this material.

Ms. Cerilli: All right, then. That whole issue was actually raised by questions from the member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford), and I had been, though, discussing issues around rent control, so I want to resume dealing with that issue and going back to some of the arguments that are being put forward by some of the landlord groups and asking for the government's interpretation or their acknowledgement of some of their claims or if they have done any of their own research on this area. One of them is to do with the assertion, I guess you could say, that the rent control guidelines are contributing to having single-family residents ending up to have to have an increase in their property taxes because of the reduced assessment on the rental properties because of the effects of the rent control guideline, to put it succinctly, I guess.

So I am wondering if that has been part of the discussions in the department and through the ad hoc committee that has been working on these issues and if there is any additional research that has been done to clarify that type of claim.

Mr. Radcliffe: This argument was made to me by one of the landlord groups when they appeared in my office in late January. For purposes of the record, I would say that the argument runs thusly: that the capital value of a residential tenancy unit, a multiple unit, is determined by the value of the income that it can generate.

The landlords, this one group of landlords, argue that if you suppress the revenue and suppress it unjustifiably to keep it below what market would demand, then that suppresses the capital value because the revenue, the total income for that block, is depressed, and therefore the capital value is depressed, and therefore--and this is a real domino argument, and I would not castigate my honourable friend, but I might typify this argument as somewhat imaginative and reaching. Nonetheless, the argument then goes that the capital value of the building is depressed, and therefore the municipal authority is taxing on a depressed land base. I am familiar with that argument, and that is how the argument goes as it was explained to me.

I have no additional research on this at this point in time. There was an ad hoc committee assisting the director to consider many of these issues, and I received a report back from the director, I think, oh, about the second week in April, so all this material is quite fresh on my desk. I would advise my honourable colleague that I run a very open office where any pressure group or advocacy group is open to come to me and present their arguments. However, my policy is that any issues that are raised are then referred back through the deputy into the department for such advice and consideration as the department may consider. I will take no action and form no opinion and do nothing until I receive advice back from that chain of command out of the department.

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I can advise my honourable colleague that the consensus, I believe, of this ad hoc group--which is not a widely consultative group, I would add as well. It is a select group of a small number of individuals who met long and hard, did come up with a number of different suggestions of issues that I might consider, but there has been no economic information provided to me either by the landlords nor by the ad hoc group nor by the director nor by the deputy to date. I think, before we were to take any legislative direction or legislative steps on this, that some of those types of steps and research that my honourable colleague is suggesting would be well advised so that we can speak not from suspicion nor from a position of one particular advocate but rather from a balanced position and one of fact. For example, I would like to know what the tax base is for residential tenancies in the city of Winnipeg within the redline district, without the redline district. Does that cause a diminution in tax rolls and tax income? I believe that the argument may be spurious or may even be affected by the fact that I believe the City of Winnipeg has weighted their tax base--and I am no expert on assessment--against single-family residential rather than multiple and commercial, and that there has been a real shift or change in the policy of the City of Winnipeg over the last five or six years. I can say that because I used to act for some foreign landlords, some foreign landowners, I should say, who owned land in the city of Winnipeg, both houses and businesses, and we saw the shift come from year to year in the taxes we were paying as we were administering their property. I do not know if one can conclude, such as my honourable friend has posed, but it is certainly an argument and it is something that I would like to address.

Ms. Cerilli: In his answer the minister has sort of agreed with part of it, and I guess the question would be if you can equate those two issues together, the fact that the city has transferred a greater tax burden to single family-owned properties, residential properties as opposed to businesses and residential tenancies, but equating that with these other issues is the question that he has raised.

Just a quick question related to this, especially given that the minister has said that there is a need for more research and analysis in this area. I am wondering what the capacity is currently in his department to do that kind of research and analysis or if they rely heavily on CMHC. I know I get the benefit of a lot of their publications, as I am sure the department does, but I am concerned because I know there are a lot of changes happening over with CMHC and I am concerned if some of their research, the very good work they do in this whole area for the entire country is going to be reduced and if that is going to occur, is that really going to affect this department in terms of the Residential Tenancies branch and the ability for you to have access to information to do the kind of analysis we need to do for policy in this area.

On a point of clarification for Mr. Martindale, the member for Burrows, I want to be co-operative on this committee particularly because of the flood and I know that our critic for Consumer and Corporate Affairs may have received an evacuation notice today, so we are trying to give some more certainty to the proceedings of the committee. I am prepared to go until five o'clock, and I am wanting to ask the minister if at that time we could have the head of the branch for Vital Statistics here, so the member for Burrows would ask some questions and then after that we would proceed back with the critic for Consumer and Corporate Affairs.

Mr. Radcliffe: Absolutely, I would be delighted to do that. My honourable colleague had asked me what the capacity for research was in the Residential Tenancies branch of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, and I would advise that the director does rely on CMHC for their vacancy information. They apparently have vacancy stats that they supply on a regular basis.

I would also advise that Consumer and Corporate Affairs has a Research department, albeit modest, of two research analysts and a support person. The department is headed by Mr. Ian Anderson, and they research a whole plethora of activities for us right across the department. So, for example, if there was an issue which as we are discussing now of what is the impact on the assessment rates on residential rent control on the capital value of commercial property in the city of Winnipeg, residential tenancy property in the city of Winnipeg, this is quite logically and reasonably an issue which could be referred to the Research branch of the department.

In addition, I have seized the initiative. There is an advisory group of landlords and tenants which had been dormant for some time, and I have just completed some appointments to this group. It is my intention that this group be started up again and that they would meet. I do not believe they have met for a couple of years, and it has become quite inactive. They do not have research capacity per se, but what they do, I think, bring to the mosaic is public opinion, street sense. They would bring the milieu, the temper of the milieu in which we are functioning. So I think that, before one commits oneself to any branch of legislation, you have got to do some consultation with the people involved.

I would cite to my honourable colleague that I had the experience in the Child and Family Services environment to travel across the country and found it very rewarding to speak to or hear presentations from an incredible cross-section of individuals in the province of Manitoba on Child and Family Services legislative proposed changes. That proved to me the value of consulting the individuals that you are going to be legislating over before you can take any such steps, and so therefore I would look to this advisory group to bring this sort of wisdom to the table.

Ms. Cerilli: The other part of that question, then, given that the minister has said that they would rely on CMHC for this type of analysis and research, does the minister have concerns or knowledge of changes at CMHC that could affect the availability of information in these kinds of areas, and is that a concern, I mean, if we are going to then have to seek to get that information elsewhere?

Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, we have no information at this time that CMHC is going to discontinue providing vacancy rates, information for the city of Winnipeg at this time. So I can respond to my honourable colleague that in fact we do not see that any prospective changes of CMHC of which we are aware right now will impact on our research capacity in this department.

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Ms. Cerilli: One of the other things that the minister had said yesterday during this discussion was that public housing was filling a gap in the availability of accommodation at the low end for low-income Manitobans, and one of the other claims by some of the landlord groups is that public housing is unfair competition, that they would like to see the government "get out of the housing business." We see that the federal government, in a large way, is doing that, and provincial governments are following suit, even this provincial government. Since the feds have stopped funding new construction of social housing in '94, there has been no new money from the provincial government of Manitoba either for new social or public housing.

I am wondering how the minister and this government respond to the assertions of groups like AIM or other landlord groups that try and suggest that the government has no business in providing housing for low-income Manitobans or seniors or those with disabilities or any of the other Manitobans that benefit from Manitoba Housing properties programs?

Mr. Radcliffe: Well, Mr. Chairman, I am sure you are aware, as is my honourable friend, that when you occupy public office, you are subject to a full range of opinion from the entire spectrum of the business world in the department in which you administer, and one must be tolerant and open to listen to everybody's views. But I can tell this particular member that I would have great difficulty--given the level of information and knowledge that I have at this point in time, the arguments that AIM has presented to date to me in support of abolishing subsidized housing or public housing because it was undue competition for their particular niche market, I do not believe it really has a lot of weight at this point in time.

Ms. Cerilli: This gets me into another area that I want to spend some time on, particularly because I do have with me the rent market report for '96 from Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation. This report provides more than just vacancy rates. It also provides the average costs for apartments in the province and breaks down the city of Winnipeg into different areas and then shows some comparison between capital cities across the country. So it is a really good resource, and one of the things that we are concerned about is the availability of a full range of housing across the province.

I know, again, from talking to some of the landlord groups, one of the things that they have said to me is that there is a shortage of two-bedroom units in the province. I am wondering if the ministry has any information of their own or if they could confirm that or produce some information to show that there is a lower vacancy and there is a need for two-bedroom units in the city or in the province.

Mr. Radcliffe: In response to my honourable colleague, the information we have in the department is that we know what the supply of two-bedroom housing units is in the province, but we have no way of assessing what is the demand for that. Of course, obviously, all you can do is assume or conclude if the supply is very low that there is a high demand.

My honourable colleague's remarks now are the first that we have heard of this information that the supply of two-bedroom housing units does not meet the current demand for this type of rental accommodation in the city of Winnipeg or the province of Manitoba, and, in fact, we have no way of measuring the demand. We know what the supply is because we see the vacancy rates, but we do not know what the unqualified or unsatisfied demand is that is out there for that.

Ms. Cerilli: I guess one would be able to make some assumption though. If there is a higher vacancy rate, then you would know that there perhaps is a greater demand in there. But one of the other reasons that some of the landlord groups are raising this is because they believe that there is a problem in terms of--again, this deals with some of the rent control issues, but one of the things that they are concerned about is the cost. The difference between a one-bedroom and a two-bedroom is reduced. I guess they are equating this, that people tend to stay in the two-bedroom units, perhaps then the rent control guidelines, or there has not been as much increase in the rents because people stay there longer.

What is happening is there is a skewing in terms of the rents in Manitoba. I am just trying to look through the statistics here from this report and see if this is borne out in this research from CMHC, and I am wondering if that is something that the department has had raised with them through this ad hoc committee, through meetings that you have had, and if this is something that is of concern or being looked at.

Mr. Radcliffe: Again, Mr. Chair, on a general philosophical basis, whenever one enters an economic market with a regulation or a regulatory environment of any sort, be it on the Public Utilities Board level or on the Residential Tenancies board, you are interfering with the free flow of economic forces of supply and demand.

So it cannot but skew the market to some extent or another, and I would define skew as to change away from the unchecked forces of supply and demand. However, I have not been met with the argument that the people are retaining, unjustifiably or unduly, the occupancy of two-bedroom units to the detriment of people searching for that sort of accommodation or to deplete the market of that supply.

If somebody were to make that case to me, I am certainly open to doing the appropriate research on it to see what is available, but this is the first time I have heard that.

Ms. Cerilli: I guess it can just be added to the list. I am starting to, after listening to the minister, have more questions about this department's role through Research or the branch, the Residential Tenancies branch in trying to do some type of analysis. I am glad to see that you have your committee, your tenant and landlord committee up and working again, because I think that a lot of these issues will come forward. I mean, there are all sorts of other issues we have not even started dealing with yet in terms of rental properties.

I guess what I am wanting to find out is the attention that is being paid in this department through Research or the Residential Tenancies branch to issues of social policy around residential tenancies, of trying to have--I do not know if there even is any kind of mandate within this department to pay attention to housing for low-income people, to do research in this area, to look at some of the issues around, like I am wanting to get into yet, the percentage of the market that is available at the low end, or if the government simply views that as the purview of the Department of Housing, through social and public housing, and that there is no social policy role as part of the mandate for Consumer and Corporate Affairs and the Residential Tenancies branch.

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Mr. Radcliffe: In response to my honourable colleague, I would say that the cabinet in its deliberations from year to year where it sets the recommended level of increase, not an automatic increase, I might add, but the allowable ceiling to which rents can rise, taking into account the rising costs and the rise and the devaluation of our currency and all those sort of imponderables, does consider the overall impact of the availability of decent, clean, safe accommodation for our citizens at all ends of the economic spectrum. So from a broad philosophical base, I would say that is the consideration. Then, more particularly, my sense, and albeit I am very new in the chair as the minister responsible for residential housing, but I can add that the sense I get from listening to the reports coming up from the department is that great focus is placed on mediation, resolution of disputes by conciliation, that there is a very collegial and open environment in the Residential Tenancies which tries to be open to the disenfranchised, those individuals who do come forward, and albeit we only see the ones who do come forward, and I am aware of the argument that for every one that comes forward, there are probably many, many others who suffer in silence.

Nonetheless, I would say that the environment created by the director with his employees, with the processes that he invokes and with the constant checking, the constant education of the employees and the quality of the employees in the branch, are such that they are aimed at making this a responsive environment for both sides, not only for the landlords but for the tenants as well. Of course, as my honourable colleague would argue, the landlords have an economic advantage that the tenants do not have, and they have the advantage of organization and probably access to research and development that individual tenants do not have because they do not appear in this province to be an organized group of individuals.

However, I would not say that the department has a particular bent or a particular overriding philosophy in favour of one group or the other. They try scrupulously to maintain a balance so that housing of all types are available to the citizens of Manitoba, and in fact, being mindful of the issue, that it has got to be a source of investment which is appealing to individuals so that people will invest their capital to produce private housing of a quality and nature that people want to live in. This is over and above the public housing which my honourable colleague has referred to.

So I have not given you much specifics. I have given you sort of a generality of what the direction and focus of the department is. From my observation to date, is there any special mandate. I know of no special mandate at this point in time, but I can tell you that we are in a self-analytical evaluative process right now right across the department, in fact right across government, whereby we are looking at benchmarking, we are looking at measurements of objectives, we are looking at accountability from our departments and asking our employees to bring back to us their concept of measurement, so that we have government that is responsive so that we can then give some direction to the front-line workers rather than having it as a mindless reactive entity.

Mr. Chair, I was wondering if I could prevail upon the kindness of the committee to have about a two-minute adjournment. I just want to step outside the committee room for one minute.

An Honourable Member: Recess.

Mr. Radcliffe: Yes, if I could have a recess for two minutes. [interjection] Wonderful, thank you.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Is there leave from the committee? [agreed]

The committee recessed at 3:25 p.m.

The committee resumed at 3:27 p.m.

Ms. Cerilli: I guess what the minister has said is in some ways then rent control is a social policy or social justice policy, and, other than that, there is not really a mandate to do research or try and develop other similar policies. But they do, through The Residential Tenancies Act, they have tried to develop a fair act, and their job is to uphold that act in a fair way. I accept that, and I know that there are some things built into that act to try and address the imbalance of power between tenants and landlords.

One that comes to mind is the fact that landlords are not to bring lawyers to Residential Tenancies Commission hearings. I know I have, though, had complaints given to me by tenants who feel that that has not been followed all the time, but that is another issue.

I am stilling wanting, though, to press the minister a little bit more on this to see if I am understanding this correctly, if I am understanding his answer correctly, and if there are any other initiatives in his branch to deal with socioeconomic inequities in the whole area of residential tenancies. You know, I was talking the other day about how low income people still really do get gouged in terms of renting housing, and the minister had also said that part of the responsibilities of his department is to create the climate for investment, ensure that is one of the purposes or one of the priorities of the department. I am wondering how the whole issue of the fairness and the social and economic justice for tenants fits into that in terms of other social policy and research and development in this whole area of housing Manitobans.

Mr. Radcliffe: I would add to my previous answer, I guess, to my honourable colleague, in part in answer to this question that she has posed, that the preamble to the act, Chapter R119 of Continuing Statutes of Manitoba, which was passed in September of '93, has a preamble, about four whereases which set out the philosophical base for the functioning of The Residential Tenancies Act. In part, it says that the mandate is to preserve the ongoing harmonious relationships between landlords and tenants, require innovative dispute resolution which is informal, accessible, expeditious, amicable; that to resolve these disputes in an informal administrative setting and that skill be brought to the table by the individuals who are settling these disputes.

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That is perhaps the philosophy that has already gone into this whole area of governmental administration. Then in addition to that, I would add that Section 125(3) of the act itself sets out some criteria, that before making an order under this section, the director shall consider the rents charged for rental units, the increase in actual expenses, change in service and facilities privileges, any grounds for objections from a tenant, findings by the director that the landlord is in contravention of an obligation to repair; that the residential complex has been sold, et cetera, et cetera. So there are minutiae list of criteria there that go into the making of the order which, I guess, is the culmination of research, thought, policy planning of previous governments in previous years.

Over and above that, the Residential Tenancies tries scrupulously so far as is humanly possible to maintain an impartial face to the community, so that they cannot be perceived as an advocate or as being prejudiced either for one group or the other in order to maintain a face of credibility. That is, in part, answer to my honourable colleague's question.

The other part of her question was, are there any other facilities for research with regard to social planning within this department, and I would say no, not at this time. With the volume of work, with the area of responsibility that, in fact, the resources of this department are currently taxed, not beyond their capacity, but as you can see from the annual report there is a carry-over of issues from year to year, so that they are working to full potential at this point in time and do not have a capacity for research or think tank on social issues.

Now, having said that, of course, I think it is probably incumbent upon the minister from time to time, being responsive to the winds of opinion and needs of the community, to bring issues to the attention of the director and to have those directed either on a policy level, a regulatory level or, indeed, on a legislative level.

As my honourable colleague knows, if any minister of a department gets out of touch with the community whom he or she may represent, then there is a right-sizing or a change that would be made in the fullness of time by the electorate, if any government is not truly representing the social policy that the community itself demands.

So that is perhaps a global solution and goes into the thinking. I say that quite sincerely, that I think many of my colleagues and cabinet, when they sit down once a year to set the allowable rates, that they are mindful of those sort of issues of social planning.

Do we have a group within the department that looks upon domestic violence or on poverty issues? No. No, there is nothing within the department on the specifics that my honourable colleague is referring to.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, toward the end there, the minister started getting into the kinds of questions or concerns or even suggestions that I might have, and that is looking at the big picture beyond just trying to have a fair process for a fair Residential Tenancies Act and then a fair process for enforcing and following that act. I understand that that is what the department is trying to do.

Beyond that, I know that--I do not know how recent the statistic is--but that low-income Manitobans and Canadians, the lowest quintile pay now more than 30 percent of their income for rent, and that has gone up since the late 1980s. The percentage of their income has gone up. On the other hand, the highest quintile of the population in terms of income, they pay only, I think it is 9.5 percent of their income into housing, that their percentage has gone down since the '80s and that this is a trend which shows that the gap between the lower-income citizens and higher-income citizens is growing.

I know that your government now is--through the throne speech, they have made claims that they want to address poverty. We have been raising a lot of these issues for a long time. Housing policy is one of the best areas to do that in terms of any department, whether it is social allowance, residential tenancies, housing, wherever. One of the other things that is always a concern is the millions of dollars that are expended through social allowance each year that go directly to landlords. When the social allowance changes were made with the reductions this year, all those reductions were taken out of food and other allowances. None of them came out of rent.

Now, in some ways that has guaranteed landlords that they will not lose any of their revenue from social allowance tenants, but what it means is there are a lot of low-income tenants on social allowance who have to take from their food budget and supplement their rent, and that that problem is getting worse as well.

I have heard the figure of $90 million in Manitoba goes from social allowance to landlords every year. That figure includes a lot of housing that is substandard, that as the minister has acknowledged, all these tenants are out there fending for themselves, and this is a complaint-driven process.

I was surprised to learn when I became the critic for Housing that even the rent supplement programs in the Department of Housing, which benefit landlords, the SAFER and the SAFFR programs, there is no inspection tied to those programs. Again, provincial revenue or tax dollars are going to landlords without ensuring that prior to that the properties are meeting standard. So this is the kind of area that I am talking about.

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When I am talking about having a mandate to look at social policy, socioeconomic justice through all departments of government, and what all departments can do to try to close the gap between low-income people and higher-income people, realizing that housing is one of the areas where wealth is transferred from low-income people to higher-income people, that in paying rents--and I raised this the other day--if you have a house in the inner city that is divided into four apartments, and each of those tenants, for example, are paying I think it is about $286 now that can go toward rent--I am not sure that is the exact figure, I cannot remember off the top of my head--what ends up happening is the amount of social allowance that is allowed for rent is what ends up being charged in the market or by the private landlords. Then what ends up happening is a given landlord who has separated their house into four apartments collects that amount from all those tenants and ends up often more than paying for their mortgage, more than twice what they are paying in their mortgage. They make quite a hefty profit on housing low-income Manitobans or those on social allowance.

These are the kinds of issues that I am encouraging the minister to take a look at and asking if there is the capacity in his department, or if this can be raised with the social policy group of cabinet. I do not think the minister is part of that group. I know he is not. These are the kinds of issues related to residential tenancies and housing that really need to be addressed, because as I have said, the trends are meaning that things are getting worse. That is the other thing I was going to ask the minister. From listening to his answers so far, I do not think he is going to be able to tell me if they have done any research on it in this area, or if there is any information to confirm that those trends are getting worse. The rents being paid by lower-income Manitobans is getting higher and more costly, while it is not going up to the same degree for those that are more advantaged and affluent.

Mr. Radcliffe: I would agree with my honourable colleague that I cannot tell you at this time, and I have no research which I have available, which I have at my fingertips. I am aware that there are policy people who research even beyond the limits of the department in government, but I do not know if they even have addressed this issue. The only response I can make at this point is to say, no, I have nothing at this point in time. I think these are some very meaningful and very important issues and perhaps touches well on some of the other departments, that of my colleague Mrs. Mitchelson and perhaps even Mr. Praznik in Health, because I am mindful that poor housing begets the sort of mindless cycle of poor education results, poor health, lack of social motivation, justice, et cetera, which I am sure my honourable colleague is aware, so there may be some research in some of these other departments that I am not aware of.

Ms. Cerilli: To continue on the same vein, I would like to ask the minister then if he is confirming he will be having discussions with the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) and Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik). I could also suggest Education, because one of the other things that occurs, particularly in the inner city of Winnipeg with the problems with affordable housing for many families, is many schools in the inner city have their entire enrollment turn over in one year because the families move so frequently, and there is that disruption on the education of students.

I know that there are a number of agencies in the city of Winnipeg that do research on this. CEDA, Community Education Development Associations, are very active on these kinds of issues. They have staff who are looking at alternatives, as we speak, to develop affordable, stable, safe, up-to-standard housing for low-income citizens, and as the minister said, there are issues related to health and all sorts of different areas.

So I am wanting to just emphasize that and see if he is making then the commitment to have discussions dealing with some of these issues with his cabinet colleagues.

Mr. Radcliffe: I am certainly quite prepared to do that, to have that conversation with my honourable colleagues.

I would add, Mr. Chair, as a model perhaps, I am sure my honourable colleague is aware of this, but I have had occasion through my contact with Child and Family Services to come in contact with an individual woman by the name of Josie Hill. Josie Hill was an aboriginal woman who was instrumental in starting up the Andrews Street station. [interjection] My honourable colleague says she is aware.

I have had the opportunity to attend at the Andrews Street station to meet a number of the residents who use that facility. In fact, I went there one morning and cooked breakfast for them. I bought breakfast, cooked it and served it. It blew them away that a little boy from the south end would come up to Andrews Street and do this for them, and we had a wonderful morning on that.

I think the telling point there was that Andrews Street station, as I see it, was started with a modicum of seed money from the provincial government, but basically the empowerment, the motivation and the drive for that community activity came out of the community itself, rather than somebody coming from the outside and saying I am going to do good to you whether you like it or not.

In fact, I think the approach that was used there was, what do you want; what is meaningful to you; what are your real needs and, in fact, that the Andrews Street station started because a number of women in the district said look, we need a safe, clean, secure place where we can go and do our laundry, because many of the homes in that area did not have at-home laundry facilities. The local wishy-washer laundromat was across from a needle park. Their children were subjected to abuse and violence. These women desperately wanted a place where they could go and, as I say, do their domestic chores in some sort of sense of security.

Then the whole project expanded and layered from that, but the important part is that the individuals who use the program drive it. My observation of it was that they have a real sense of ownership, they have a real sense of pride of accomplishment, so they are not subject to the attitude of somebody from a paternalistic height giving them a handout, which is even more demeaning in itself. Rather they have helped themselves.

I would also recommend to my honourable colleague the issue of the Lions home on Portage Avenue where a number of the individuals who reside there pay according to their means. I have some family friends that reside in that tower. Again, there, there is the sense of pride of ownership which I think is essential. I think that that is an issue that my honourable colleague Mrs. Mitchelson is actively trying to promote; first of all, a truly consultative process to determine real need and then a neighbourhood empowerment, rather than something that is administratively or bureaucratically ridden, something that comes out of the community itself.

Ms. Cerilli: I think at the beginning there, the minister said that he would agree to discuss these issues with his cabinet colleagues.

Mr. Radcliffe: Absolutely.

Ms. Cerilli: I also appreciate his enthusiasm for the Andrews Street Family Centre. I, too, have made and served breakfast there. I think that they make it a policy in trying to educate government and other agencies to invite people to visit there and make their staff breakfast. So I think they have done, and Josie Hill especially has done a great job of educating people about the realities of the residents in that community.

The other thing I do not know if the minister is aware of, that that agency is connected to William Whyte School, the Hope Centre and the north end housing project, and the study they did which was initiated because of the number of substandard rental properties, boarded up buildings, sniff houses, crack houses in the area. They did a door-to-door survey which then, in turn, has led to a lot of the needs assessing that has gone into this centre that you are talking about.

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So projects like that need revenue, they need support, and I agree that a lot of good things have come out of this centre. I know one of the other things that that neighbourhood is looking at doing is creating a co-op to help with renovation and retrofitting of buildings, of housing. One of the groups that is looking at how to finance housing for low-income people is working out of that neighbourhood as well.

My concern is that the population that we hear, in some ways, so little of, but in some ways a lot about in sort of a statistical way, is Manitobans who are really struggling. I am concerned that while we are in a phase of reducing government support through reductions in social housing--there have been reductions in social allowance, there have been cuts in all sorts of health care and education programs--that the housing standards drop as people have to take money that would have gone there and transfer it to purchase other services.

Also, this is all occurring in a climate where the affordability of housing is just becoming more of a problem as well. I think this whole issue needs some attention and I do not know if this minister, in co-operation with the Minister for Housing--I did finish my Estimates already with that ministry and they are preoccupied with the devolution of social housing from the federal government. I am concerned that there is no vision in terms of how--if the public sector is backing out--we are going to ensure that we are not getting into more problems for middle- and low-income Manitobans in terms of housing.

Mr. Radcliffe: I just want to put on the record and I am sure my honourable colleague has heard the rhetoric from my side of the House many, many times, but I just wanted to make the point that in health care there have been no global overall cuts and that, in fact, we are spending $1.87 billion in Manitoba on supporting our health care in Manitoba.

We have heard the Honourable Mrs. McIntosh, who does not waste an opportunity to tell us that we are spending $115 million more over '88, albeit with the import of the school boards and the inflation and the growth of collective agreements, that less and less of these dollars are trickling down to program and more and more of these dollars are being consumed by wages in these areas.

So, therefore, we are being cast as cutting back on education, whereas overall year over year, there has been an increase and, in fact, I would point out to my honourable colleague, that last year just in the area of home care alone we budgeted for, I think it was $80 million to go into the home care budget and we exceed that by $60 million, and government spent that in support of home care. I would react and say that cuts to health care--there are changes going on in health care, there are technological advances.

I can advise my honourable colleague that, in fact, a member of my family had some surgery about two weeks ago, and she was in the hospital for two days on a procedure that a decade ago she would have been there probably for eight to 10 days. So there are radical changes that are ongoing with health care. I think we in many, many cases are better off for it, although, you know, we can always anecdotally point to particular cases where individuals have been released too quickly, they have gone home, and there has not been a support system for them.

I would also note, and I believe I was corrected by members opposite at one point in the Chamber, but I think that Manitobans can take pride in the fact that the category of children 12 to 18, if you remove the housing component from the social allowance award, they receive the highest level of support, that category of children on social allowance, of anywhere in the country. When I heard that figure I was astounded. I had the opportunity while sitting in Treasury one day to see those figures going by. In fact, I do not think that this government gets enough recognition of that fact, that comparing it across the country, this is the best level of support for our marginalized and our poor in that category of people.

The Manitoba government tries to at least maintain a middle of the road level of support for our less enhanced individuals. But I just wanted to point out to my honourable colleague and for the purposes of the record in this discussion today that, in fact, this government is a pragmatic government and is doing its best with the resources that we have available to us without raising significant taxes, although costs are going up, to supply a sustained level of support.

Now, my honourable colleague raises the issue of there are Manitobans out there whom we do not hear from who may well be the truly bereft. My reflection on that would be that there are probably what I would typify as the working poor. The truly socially sustained people on public assistance have access to a myriad, a plethora of programs that they can use for self-advancement and development, but probably the working poor are a category of people who get caught.

I do not know that there is enough attention paid to that category of people. These are people who are paying their bills, getting by, but they get caught. They are the first ones to suffer with the ravages of inflation. So I think, from a social policy perspective, that some attention ought to be given to that category of our population as well as the individuals who fall on the public assistance rolls.

Ms. Cerilli: I guess the purpose of these Estimates to some extent is to debate. The minister has opened this wide up in terms of other departments. I am going to encourage him to take a look first of all at his reference to education and teachers' salaries, at the Administration line in the Department of Education. What he will find is it has gone up. So while the Minister of Education (Mrs. McIntosh) has been harping at school divisions to reduce their education administration costs, her own department administration has increased.

The other thing is, ask people who are going to get their eyes tested about costs in health care. Ask people who need drugs and the reductions under this government of Pharmacare. The cuts, the real cuts in social allowance, as the minister has said, are affecting the people who are collecting social allowance.

I was amazed that the government rejected recommendations from its own Children and Youth Secretariat on the SAFER and SAFFR programs in the Department of Housing, where it was recommended that they promote those programs which I have already said are a guaranteed supplement for landlords to get the rent from lower-income people and rather than using that program to the utmost that it has budgeted in the Department of Housing, by promoting the program to low-income Manitobans, because the uptake on the program in the last couple of years has left approximately $300,000 in the budget, this government chose to eliminate $250,000 from that program budget line in the budget this year, even though they have recommendations in a government report suggesting that they promote it and use up the slack rather than cutting it out of the budget.

One of the other things that I will follow up is the claim that the minister has made in terms of if you take out the housing costs and this government being the most affluent in the country, but I would encourage him to look at the percentage of income spent by the people that he is talking about, the working poor, those who are earning $5.40 an hour to even like $8 or $10 if you have a family--you would probably still fit into that income level--and look at the percentage of their income that is going to housing. I think that you will find that you will understand why there are 34,000 Winnipeggers using the food bank.

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I guess I am encouraging, and I have used quite a bit of time here in Estimates today, but I think it is worth it because I can see that the minister is taking notes, and I believe that he is going to follow these up. So I feel like the time here is well spent, but what we are finding is that, as I have said, rent issues and housing issues are a large part of the expense for these families and that the policy in this area is desperately needed. I am concerned that the situation is going to get worse as governments back out more and more of social housing, not only the buildings in public housing but even programs for rent supplements like SAFER and SAFFR and all those other ones.

This government no longer has any program other than the Emergency Home Repair--[interjection] the Home Renovation Program is gone. It is just the emergency loan program which is very small that still remains, so there is nothing anymore for people to improve the standard and quality of their housing. Some of those programs did not apply to residential tenancies properties. They were for homeowners. The point that I am making is this whole area deserves some attention in terms of government policy. If you are really serious about dealing with poverty, you have to look at rental issues for these families.

Mr. Radcliffe: I concur with many of the remarks that my honourable colleague has made with regard to these issues. It is scripturally based that I remember a great leader and personal philosopher once said that the poor will always be with us, and that was in response to somebody wanting to wash his feet with oil, but one of the philosophical issues I guess, which I have often reflected upon and I had occasion to encounter this personally, is the universality of programs. I had occasion at one point--I have a 20-year-old son and he had a lump on his head, so I had occasion to take him down to a surgeon. I was told by that surgeon after he had looked at him very quickly that I could pay $60 for a tray fee and come back at four o'clock on Thursday, which was the next day, and in five minutes the problem would be looked after, or I could line up and in six months the child would be looked after. So as far as I was concerned, there was no doubt what I chose. I chose the $60 route, and the child was looked after the next day.

Now I realized that my honourable colleague would be bristling with this, but I wonder why provision is not made for people who have the means to get service supplied to them immediately, where physicians and facilities are underutilized--and I have done some survey of health care institutions across the city. I have had occasion to go into the St. Boniface surgeries, the Pan Am centre surgeries, and see facilities brand new, up-to-date operating rooms that are not being used. We say we are not using them because we do not have the money, and yet I know there are waiting lists for individuals who want service. I know that there are professionals who are dying to supply the service and, yet, because of the philosophical bent of universality and a rigid, doctrinaire application of that philosophy, we are unable to put together the two components of the society, those people with the need and the means and those people who are willing and able to supply the service.

I cannot but help reflect that that is also an inequity in our community today and should deserve some address. Now that is, perhaps, a major leap from residential housing and rent control, but it touches on some of the resolution of poverty issues and social philosophy that we have been discussing today.

Ms. Cerilli: It sure does and it sure is. It sure is a straying away from the issue of residential tenancies, but it does relate to what we were just talking about in terms of social policy. The question of universality is always brought up by the right who want means tests and then to institutionalize a two-tier system rather than having it be developed by starving the existing system is what we have seen happening across the country.

Both situations, I think, are abhorrent and not what we want to see, but I will tell him and I believe that he is listening that the problem is--and what we are trying to do is redistribute services and we want to create more equity and condition. We want to ensure that the services provided to all those people you are talking about are going to be the same quality and level of services. So you do not want to have a situation where someone who can afford the $100 to go the next day, is going to get better care, particularly in health care.

The other point then is, what we really have to see is a change in the tax system so that people do pay, but they pay through their taxes. Then it does not even just rest on the individual. It rests on society and those that generate wealth for the large part in our society, industry and business and commerce. We could get into a long discussion about the inequities of our tax system and how we are not doing a very good job of ensuring that they invest into the community through paying, what I would say are, fair share in terms of taxes to ensure that the employees that work in their factories and offices do, indeed, have adequate health care and education.

So that is the big picture and I do not know if the minister is now going to defend the banks that some of his colleagues had and claim that the banks indeed are paying their fair share, but I know that from surveys I have done with my constituents--recently I asked them about service charges and banks and regulating and having more accountability in that area and there is, I think, a lot of revenue that could go into our health care system, education system, systems to increase the quality and standard of housing in this country, if we would look to where the money is.

I agree to not continue to look to citizens as individuals to increase taxes, but to increase taxation in other ways. We could get into a long discussion about that. I mean, there are a lot of other ways we could generate tax revenue from industry, but I wanted just to put that on the record as why--I know the party that I belong to has fought long and hard for universality, particularly in the area of health care. We could talk about fee for service and how part of the vision is to deal with that issue.

The other thing I wanted to raise with the minister in terms of the question I put to him about looking into the whole area of the percentage of income, from working poor families, that is going toward housing. The other part of that would be to look at the percentage of the housing market in residential tenancies that is available to those families, both that are on social allowance and then those that are not, but are still struggling and are working at minimum wage.

I do not know if the minister has ever sat down with any of his constituents and gone through their monthly budget, but when I do that with some of my constituents, whether they are seniors, whether they are single parents, I cannot believe it. I cannot believe the way that they have to be often more frugal in terms of their budgeting than any Minister of Finance or any government official to try and ensure that they are able to buy glasses when they need them, to be able to ensure that they can get a bus pass, to be able to ensure that their kids are going to be able to go on a school trip. All those kinds of things that could come up and yet, when they are going to have to pay the ongoing expenses of hydro and rent and food.

So, I think that if the minister is saying that he is willing to look at some of these areas, if he would also look at the percentage of the market that is available to the kinds of families that we are talking about. I wish I had with me some other information that I know I have downstairs in my office in terms of the statistics that are available. There was a wonderful report that was just put out by some Canadian association on the status of children and youth. It shows what we have been saying for ages it seems, that the income for the lowest two quintiles is going down. It has gone down for the lowest quintile by a lot. It has gone up by over 8 percent for the highest, the fifth quintile.

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So when you look at those kinds of statistics and you look at the amount of money that people are having to spend on rent, you can see that that is one of the areas where a government could really develop some social policy that would make a difference.

Mr. Radcliffe: By way of response, I just want to make sure I have the issue squarely. My honourable colleague's point is to look at the percentage of residential tenancy housing that is available to the categories of the population that we are talking about. So of all the rental accommodation that is available, what percentage is either in subsidized housing or in the lower rental areas that social allowance or income-producing people just slightly above that would be able to access?

Ms. Cerilli: That is correct. What I am also saying is--I can also provide him with some charts that I have and information I have downstairs which shows the average income. It is a national study, so it is Canadian. It is not specific to Manitoba, but it divides it. When we are talking the lowest quintile, we are talking in Canada of people who are earning $7,000 a year.

So when you look at the housing that is available for them and then the next quintile up--the middle quintile, if I am remembering correctly, is approximately $23,000 a year. So even going to that level, if you look at the housing that is available, the percentage, the standards of the housing, the location, all that kind of thing, I think that would be very illuminating, and it would be important work to do for our city and our province.

Mr. Radcliffe: I would also, perhaps in sort of the free-ranging discussion that we have moved to, comment that my information that I am told is that a lot of these surveys to which my honourable colleague makes reference do not take into account many of our people who live in the North, many of our people who live on reservations, many of our people who are in the bush, who would change the proportions, the averages, the numbers and the stats significantly more.

My information is that many of these surveys and stats are derived from information basically coming out of eastern Canada or eastern United States and then forecast across the country.

Ms. Cerilli: I know that when the statistics on unemployment and poverty are often quoted, they do not include aboriginal people on reserve in the North. If you want to start talking about housing standards, I know that this department probably does not have a lot of responsibility for residential tenancies in any of those communities. I see the minister nodding.

But that is an entirely other world and other issue. The conditions in some parts of Winnipeg may approach that, but we know that there are entire communities in the North that have housing situations that would never even begin to come close to meeting the standards that are laid out in your act, in The Residential Tenancies Act, in terms of sanitation, in terms of heating and ventilation, any area, in terms of locks on the doors.

That would be an interesting question for me to ask. How many properties in the North are governed by the legislation that we are dealing with through this department, through The Residential Tenancies Act, particularly on reserve communities, if there are any?

Even in communities like Churchill and The Pas, they would have properties that were governed under this legislation, but I am sure that if we looked at some of those properties there is probably a lot of concern that you get.

That was one of the other questions I was thinking of asking when we were dealing with the staffing in the department. I notice that there is specific consideration for Brandon and Thompson, but I was wondering if there is provincial government responsibility to do inspections on housing in other communities in the North and in rural Manitoba besides those, and if some of that is up to the municipalities. So there are a few more things to throw at you.

(Mr. Mervin Tweed, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

Mr. Radcliffe: I would advise that our department has no jurisdiction constitutionally on reservations. We do have jurisdiction in northern communities, nonreservation communities, and in fact are active in Thompson, Snow Lake, The Pas, Flin Flon. Staff do inspections in those communities albeit my honourable colleagues realize that this is a complaint-driven system so that it has to depend upon that.

The director has brought to my attention that a number of years ago, apparently in Thompson, there was a housing complex in an area of Thompson called Cree Road which was quasi-derelict, and the owners refused to respond to repair orders. Therefore, the department went in and closed them down and took the property into receivership. This property has been subsequently renovated and is open for business again. I am not sure who the owner of that is today, but, nonetheless, just to give my honourable colleagues some idea of the fact that the department does work out of northern Manitoba as well.

Ms. Cerilli: Okay. I think that I want to move on to another area. I appreciate the minister's answers so far. I must say this minister is, compared to other ministers, you are a pleasure to do Estimates with. I have enjoyed your answers. There is not a lot of rambling. We get some good information, so I am pleased. I am just looking for my file that has the next issue I want to deal with.

Mr. Radcliffe: I would say those comments are reciprocal.

Ms. Cerilli: Here is a good issue to ask you about. I am pretty sure that this would be through this department, given that I have looked at the list of legislation you are responsible for right now, but I am wondering if the government is looking at any legislation in the area of life leases.

Mr. Radcliffe: Yes, indeed, we are. We have a draft bill coming up which we will be presenting imminently. In fact, a lot of work has gone on with regard to life leases. The areas that we are concerning ourselves with on life leases right now is, first of all, the issue of disclosure and to make sure that the--I guess you would call them the developers of the life-lease projects do give full and adequate disclosure to the individuals who are proposing to buy in, and then the other principle or concept that we are concerned with is to try to create an environment where there is some assurance that the individual who is leaving the life-lease environment is able to get their money out.

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As my honourable colleague is smiling, I am sure she is very much aware that this is dependent upon the reserve that is created in the life-lease corporation. The other thing we are concerned about as well is that the life-lease interest, which is an almost inchoate incorporeal right to ownership of property is in some way secured on the title to the land. What we perceive is that there are perhaps a number of well-meaning, well-intentioned individuals who are starting up these types of multiple-housing units, and they are dealing with unsophisticated purchasers, and that out of the best of intentions that people do not fall into difficulties and not be able to get money out of the life-lease operation when they are heading to the nursing home or if somebody should die or they decide to move to Arizona or whatever their personal circumstances might be. So these are a number of the issues that we have been coping with. We are not through with the polishing and the drafting at this point in time, but I can advise my honourable colleague that a lot of time, effort and expertise has gone into these issues from the department.

Ms. Cerilli: Just a few follow-up questions on this issue. So the situation could occur right now, that if someone invested a few thousand dollars into property for a life lease, let us say four or five tenants did that and decided to all move out at the same time, there could be a problem where they would not be able to get their money out. That is a situation that could occur.

The other thing is I am wanting the minister to give me a little more information about what will be involved in the requirements for full disclosure, and when are we going to see the legislation. Will that be in this sitting?

Mr. Radcliffe: Yes, first of all, working backwards, yes. We propose to introduce this bill in this sitting. The extent and nature--and that is God willing and the river does not keep on rising, but the extent of the disclosure touches on the issues of how much is in the reserve account. We are proposing that there will be annual disclosure to the individual members, I guess you might call them, of the life-lease organization

Mr. Chairman, I just had to refresh my memory. We had this conversation about four or five days ago, and some of these ideas were still rolling around in my head.

Some of the extent of disclosure that we are discussing and debating right now is to make sure that the prospective purchaser coming in--at the outset, they sign almost a statement of intent when they sign up for a life lease, so the member should have a clear idea of the specifications of the space that they are buying. If they take their $40,000 or their $60,000, whatever it may be, which they have rolled out of a free-standing home and are going into a life-lease, multiple residential tenancy, that they know that they are going to end up with a two-bedroom, a three-bedroom or whatever, in fact, the specifications of the space is. So that is important.

It is also important to have the manager or the developer set out the limits and the availability of the refund, so that the individual knows before they go in, do I get my money out on demand; do I have to wait for my money to come out; am I guaranteed that my money is going to come out, and this is a very, very important issue, I think, in these sorts of projects; then the nature and extent of the capital reserve, the nature and extent of the refund reserve, because there has to be an allocation for common area expenses, and then there has to be an allocation for the reserve itself.

What we are proposing is that there be a trustee, an individual independent trustee, who would be the recipient and the stakeholder for these funds. Then there has to be some annual communication of the operating expenses, so far as the common area is concerned, along the lines of how we run a condominium, because this is truly a hybrid cross between a condominium ownership and a rental tenancy arrangement, so we are incorporating concepts from both those environments. Now, I have not discussed or outlined exhaustively the areas of disclosure, but these are some of the concepts on disclosure.

One of the areas of concern right now which we are struggling with is that we believe some schemes in the province are saying that there is a tax advantage to be determined, that you can pay an additional lump of capital and get a diminution in your monthly contribution to your common-area expenses. These we want to be very clear, and this probably comes in under the disclosure area, that one must be very careful that the individual going into this project knows that there may be some attribution of tax, taxable benefit coming back. So the individual who is going into this must have the full package of information, as much as we can anticipate, before they commit the money.

Then one of the other issues with life leases is when does the money roll over from the initial stakeholder to the contractor. There is an optimum time, there is a critical mass level of when you have so many people signed up for the project then the capital rolls over to actual construction, and until then it is held basically in an escrow account.

Ms. Cerilli: I appreciate the minister for that information. Just to wrap up in this area, I am wondering if the minister knows the number of life-lease properties currently in the province right now. I am also wanting to know if the department knows how many of those are vacant and how many new constructions are sort of on the way in terms of life-lease units and then, finally, if there are currently any disputes in court related to this issue, because there is not legislation to protect people currently.

Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chair, I can advise my honourable colleague that there are approximately 60 multiple units right now, either in existence or in the hopper ready to go at this point in time. In other words, they are new construction that is almost imminent--[interjection] Sixty, and I can advise my honourable colleague that this is perhaps the most active form of multiple-unit building that we have seen in the province in a number of years. The apartment building has flattened out and there has been no new construction for a number of years in Manitoba of any appreciable amount, whereas this seems to be a very fashionable, very active, very vigorous area of activity right now as our population ages.

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I am sure my honourable colleague is aware of the demographics of Manitoba, that it is a greying face and that as people roll out of their independent, free-standing homes, they look to this as a viable option if you do not have the income level to buy a condominium and, in fact, in some ways this gives further advantages because it is almost a ready-made community structure in these life-lease organizations. Often they are an outgrowth from either church community organizations or service groups so that there is social fabric and a network involved with many of them that are sponsoring them.

The disputes go to the Residential Tenancies board at this point in time and that is because these are still tenancies. So there are no court adjudicated disputes that we are aware of.

With regard to vacancy, there may be a number of units that are vacant within the projects, but we do not have any figures on that. There are no multiple-unit groupings that are vacant, the whole unit being vacant.

Ms. Cerilli: I just want to clarify then. The minister said that there are no cases in court relating to disputes--

Mr. Radcliffe: Correct.

Ms. Cerilli: --related to life leases, but are there disputes that are either at the stage of the Residential Tenancies Commission, and how many?

Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, there are a small number of cases, I am told, before Residential Tenancies. I do not have the exact number at hand at this point in time, and I would advise my honourable colleague that, in fact, the whole concept of mediation is fruitfully evoked with these sorts of groups, and I think that the Tenancies branch has had some success rate at resolving many of the disputes that are involved, and there have not been a large number.

Ms. Cerilli: One of the other areas that I wanted to deal with, as well, is something that the minister mentioned in one of his other answers, and that is the whole issue around redlining insurance and mortgages.

I am wondering if there are any working groups or committees active in the department related to this since the minister has brought it up, and he had also mentioned that there is a line, that there is a red line, so to speak, in the city of Winnipeg that has been identified by his department by either receiving complaints or doing any work that they have been involved with.

Can he describe sort of the area that is being affected by this?

Mr. Radcliffe: Well, I can advise, Mr. Chair, that I, in company with my colleague Mr. Newman, had occasion to call on the president of Wawanesa last year when, I believe, this issue was in the local press. I had received some information by way of correspondence as well, an individual complaint, not from one of my constituents but from an individual in the community who I think had copied all government MLAs.

The response I received at that time from Wawanesa was that they definitely rated areas, communities, in the city of Winnipeg and that the premiums they charged were actuarially driven and that they were predicated and based on risk, so, consequently, if there was a high vandalism rate, if there were poor construction materials, if there was a high incidence of violence and break-ins, then those areas of the city which were subject to that sort of human behaviour definitely were identified by the insurance companies privately, and the premium that they charged reflected the elevated risk.

One of the solutions--and actually it was a very proactive conversation that Mr. Newman and I had with the chap who is the head of Wawanesa. He pointed out that where the citizens in a community get together and combat the crime, combat the incidence of vandalism and break-in, that the insurance companies were prepared to readdress the issue. I cannot recall them now, but he did cite to me some incidents in areas of the city where this had happened.

I am further advised, Mr. Chair, that this is a matter of some concern to our government because we must again walk the tightrope between the sanctity of contract, the ability of private individuals to choose with whom they will contract, and the overriding social needs of the citizens of the province.

To that end, our efforts to date have been more persuasive and of a nature, such as what I have just described to my honourable colleague, of individual members calling on and discussing the problem with members of the insurance industry. We have received assurances in the Insurance branch--this is perhaps more an issue for the insurance--that the industry wishes to be more proactive themselves as well. Having said all of those warm, fuzzy things, I am certainly very much aware that it is an ongoing social problem. It has not gone away, it has not diminished, and we have no legislation to mandate or order that insurance companies must extend coverage to areas of the city that are at high risk.

At this point in time, I do not believe we have any legislative will or intent to do this, but we are mindful of the problem and moral suasion, I guess, is the extent to which we have entered into this forum at this point in time.

Ms. Cerilli: Those are two different issues here. The issue, first one, is what I think the minister is dealing with and that is for insurance for properties, homes, so that they can get insurance on the home and the contents. I am wondering if he is talking about both for residential tenancies properties and for homes owned by the homeowner.

The other question I have based on his answer is he has acknowledged that there are areas of the city that are being priced differently in terms of insurance coverage, and that is based on risk. I am wondering if the insurance industry is basing that on reports from the City of Winnipeg on crime or how are they assessing that risk. I appreciate what he said is that the community has sort of organized itself and has made an attempt to deal with some problems, that there is a response by the insurance agency. I am wondering how they assess that as well, once their community decides that they want to do something about the problem.

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The other whole area is for acquiring mortgages for properties in certain parts, particularly in the city. I am wondering if that is also part of the problem that is being identified for Winnipeg or if it is only for insurance, but it is for actually getting a mortgage, having the financing on a certain property and getting a mortgage.

Mr. Radcliffe: Just by way of clarification, my honourable colleague is referring to the fact that in order to get a mortgage you have to have fire insurance on the dwelling with first loss payable to the mortgagee, is that what she is addressing?

Ms. Cerilli: No. I am talking about banks agreeing to do a loan for a mortgage for a certain part of the city.

Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, in response to my honourable colleague's remarks, we have no information, nor history of complaints or issues related to a dearth of insurance in residential tenancies in apartment dwelling. We are not aware that there is a problem with regard to that with the redline insurance. I am aware, and I guess probably from the same articles in the newspaper last year that my honourable colleague is, that the problem relates to free-standing homes. Many of those were in the core area of the city.

My information of how risk is assessed is that the insurance company will look at its claims record, and that is how it determines risk. They maintain a history of claims, and they then forecast those on an actuarial basis from their actual experience. So it is driven by pragmatic, objective evidence rather than secondhand evidence of what my honourable colleague was referring to.

With regard to mortgages not being granted to home owners in certain areas of the city, I have no knowledge on that. In fact to the contrary, I have had occasion when I was in the private bar to act for individuals who did purchase property in the core area of the city. The parameters of granting the mortgage was the creditworthiness of the mortgagor and an onsite, of course, evaluation of the real estate itself. Those were the two determining factors. The loan would be predicated on the worth of the individual building; in other words, was there a full basement, what was the heating process, how old was the wiring, what was the square footage, building materials, approximate age of the building, et cetera. So that is one of the determinants of granting a mortgage. Then the other thing, of course, is the net worth of the mortgagor, and do they have the capacity to repay the loan.

My honourable colleague was talking earlier, Mr. Chair, about the figure of 30 percent. I believe the banks do look on the fact that you cannot exceed 33 percent of your net income--I think it is net income--that must be available for repayment of a mortgage loan on a monthly basis.

Ms. Cerilli: Some of the issues that have been raised with me--and I am wanting to see if the minister can find out if they are occurring in any part of the province--are practices such as requiring down payments of a higher amount than are usually required for financing comparable properties in other areas. That would be one. Fixing loan interest rates at higher than those set for other mortgages in other areas, I do not think that is correct.

Mr. Radcliffe: Sorry. Repeat that, please.

Ms. Cerilli: Fixing loan interest rates at amounts higher than those set for other areas that are generally set. Perhaps, what I can do is, what I am considering doing on this maybe is putting some of this in a letter or just reading it into the record, and you can get the information back to me. I am just wondering if this is even related to residential tenancies.

Mr. Radcliffe: That is what we were just--interjection] I did not want to interrupt my honourable colleague, but that was just the debate that was going on on this side of the table, and we were speculating. My decision was that I wanted you to proceed, we would put it on the record, and then we would look at it and see if, in fact, this is information that we had accessible, but I would obviously be governed by my honourable colleague's discretion.

Ms. Cerilli: Maybe what I will do, since this is sort of related to my area in Housing, but it is not Residential Tenancies, I will do this in the form of a letter to the minister because it does relate to some other areas of his department.

I will move on to something else. Actually the next issue I was going to ask is not Residential Tenancies either so I will have to go somewhere else. So just bear with me for a moment.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): Just for the record, we will suggest that we are done doing Residential Tenancies, but we are still having open discussion.

An Honourable Member: No, no.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): You are back to that now?

An Honourable Member: Yes.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): It is a general discussion as opposed to line by line. We just want to have that on the record so when the next people come in they will know what we are--because we are moving ahead of the line by line process.

Ms. Cerilli: I guess some of the questions I was just asking pertaining to redlining were outside of the Residential Tenancies branch. However, that is the area we are going to stay on until I am finished my questions.

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One of the things that I had discussed previously at these Estimates, and I think that the previous minister had expressed some willingness in two areas, was to look at a program to have intensive inspections done in certain parts of the city of Winnipeg. Perhaps there are other jurisdictions of residential tenancies properties looking for particularly safety and repair questions. So I guess it would be a departure from the complaint-driven nature of the process, particularly given the demographics and the nature of some of the parts of the city of Winnipeg which have been identified in some cases through studies that are being done by different community groups: William Whyte, West Broadway. There are different areas in different parts of the city.

I am wondering if that has been pursued at all by the department. We had had some discussions about also having the city give more information to the province in terms of automatic referral of properties so that the full weight of The Residential Tenancies Act could be applied.

Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chair, I am advised that, in fact, the department does not have the capacity or facility to go out and to initiate on its own block by block or street by street inspections of residential tenancies in the city. It is, has been and remains a complaint-driven process.

However, having said that, the Residential Tenancies board has piggybacked with the City of Winnipeg on health orders, so that if there is a health concern or an order from the Health department coming out of the municipality that is lodged and registered with the Residential Tenancies board, in some cases the Tenancies board has gone in and either redirected rent or issued an order that no rents be allowed to be charged for a particular piece of property until certain renovations have been done.

In addition to those powers, Residential Tenancies has the authority to, as we mentioned earlier, put the property into receivership, and I think in rare cases this has been done.

Ms. Cerilli: I was just checking because we discussed the other day the number of times a year that the powers of redirecting rent is used and that it is not that often either, a few more than taking possession over a building or taking management over in a building.

But what I am suggesting is that there be specific projects, again, maybe with a community-based group co-sponsoring it where there are some specific areas where there are intensive inspections done. I have listed a few areas where I think that there are existing community groups to try and do this, and I think that they would be able to canvass the area, and the community would be more proactive either in having the tenants who are living there give their acknowledgement that they would like to be part of the program and then to call the health inspectors in and have them go down the block and clean up the area basically.

Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chair, in response to my honourable colleague, I would say that the initial crossing the threshold for the Tenancies branch, the way it is structured, the way it operates, is that there must be a response, an initial response, out of the community.

Now, having said that, the Tenancies branch does liaise and communicate with community groups, and perhaps picking up on my honourable colleague's remarks, I think there may well be a role for community groups to react as she has suggested in areas where there has been health abuse.

At that point, I think she would find that the Residential Tenancies board is responsive but, in fact, we do not have the capacity, the person power, to get out on the streets at this point in time.

Ms. Cerilli: Okay. I do not want to belabour that anymore. We could get into a whole discussion there.

I want to ask a couple of other related questions. I brought some different recommendations here for how to deal with absentee landlords. These are the folks we were talking about earlier that are raking in a lot of rent and not turning any of it back into their buildings. I know there are supposed to be some formulas that require a certain percentage to go back into maintenance and that for landlords. But what I understand often happens is the fines for noncompliance with orders or for requests for landlords to do certain things do not keep up with the benefits that they have in terms of the rent that they collect from these properties.

Basically what I am wondering is: What are the rates in terms of fines, if that has occurred very often? I have articles with me going back a few years where there are landlords that are well known to the city and to your branch for a number of violations to fire codes, to maintenance violations, health violations. There could be quite a long list of convictions, and what ends up happening is the fine is a few hundred dollars, and once that is paid the landlord continues on charging the usual rent and does not necessarily do much to the property. So there are a lot of problems in this system.

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The average penalty is $300. This, I guess, has to do with the City of Winnipeg as well. I am wanting clarification in there, and I do not know if there is a revenue line anywhere in government, I do not think so, for revenue that is collected under these convictions.

Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that in fact the process for violation of health, fire codes, maintenance, issues of this nature, contravenes City of Winnipeg building by-laws, and in fact the municipality, in this case the City of Winnipeg perhaps, for example, under discussion, would lay charges--and I do remember by-law court which used to be held on Friday mornings, but it would be proceedings that would go before a Provincial Judges Court judge, and there would be determinations made. Once the determination has been made that, in fact, there is a violation of a city ordinance or a city by-law, that order is then registered at the Residential Tenancies branch. The Residential Tenancies branch then becomes the enforcer of the order and at that point they have the power and do, I am told, redirect rents.

I am also told that there is an emergency fund, a body of money that the director has access to an emergency fund which can be used to implement immediate repairs to residential tenancies. Then the fund is built up again by virtue of an assessment against that particular building or that particular owner so that they are forced to repay from the rents back into the fund.

The role of the Residential Tenancies board is to implement the repairs and see that there is compliance. That is the role of the board versus the role of the city and the role of the court, all of which have different levels of activity. So we cannot comment on the penalties that are adjudicated because that would be beyond our jurisdiction.

Ms. Cerilli: What I am trying to clarify then is, these are all court decisions and court-determined levels. I am just looking here at one where it is the Provincial Court that decided that one landlord had $3,700, and there is no system, even with the city, for there to be fines that are directly levied by the City of Winnipeg, for example. This is all dealt with through the courts. That is correct, yes?

Mr. Radcliffe: I believe that is correct.

Ms. Cerilli: Unfortunately, I think that is all the time that I am going to have to ask the minister questions on Residential Tenancies, even though we could probably go on for a little while longer. I have not even got through all my files here, but let me just check with my colleagues here.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): Could I ask then, as we have been moving back and forth, are we prepared to pass line 5.2.(b) Residential Tenancies (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,474,600--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $634,000--pass.

Mr. Radcliffe: I would like to thank the honourable colleague for the discussions that we have had today, the quality of the questions that she has posed today. I have enjoyed the experience very much.

Mr. Chairperson: We thank the honourable minister. I would like to advise the members of the committee that the correct procedure for considering items in the Committee of Supply is in a line-by-line manner. In order to skip ahead or to revert back to lines already passed, unanimous consent of the committee is required. Agreed. [agreed].

Do we have an area that we would like to move into first?

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I believe by previous agreement we should be moving back to the Vital Statistics SOA. The member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) has a number of questions.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): Okay then. For the consideration of line 5.1.(e) Vital Statistics Agency, for no money--

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): I would like to thank the minister and his staff for being so accommodating. I would like to go back and clarify some of the answers that the minister gave me the last time I was here. I think the minister might have been obtuse or even obfuscating, however, the minister might want to use another "o" word. I know he likes words. He might think up a more appropriate word.

Mr. Radcliffe: Objective and omnipotent.

Mr. Martindale: I knew the minister could come up with other "o" words.

About the United Church archive materials, first of all, it is our belief, since I am on the United Church archives committee for the Conference of Northwestern Ontario and Manitoba, that our materials are stored appropriately and properly. They are actually in the rare book room at the University of Winnipeg which is a humidity-controlled, secure room. I appreciate that the minister acknowledged that the United Church owns certain records and he said that upon request the records would be returned.

My question for clarification is: Does the minister mean that the information would be turned over to the United Church or that the actual church registers would be returned to the United Church upon request?

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(Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that in fact there are some books at the University of Winnipeg, as my honourable colleague has indicated, and we believe that we also have possession of some other registries at the Vital Statistics office. In fact, the actual registers will be returned upon request to the United Church, because they are the property of the United Church. We have only been an instrument of safekeeping and, in fact, they should be returned to the original repository from whence they came.

Mr. Martindale: Mr. Minister, I think that the archives committee and the archivists will be happy to hear that positive response.

Just two other corrections. I intended to say that some of the records were gathered by the Wesleyan Methodist Church, named after the Wesley brothers, and also that I do know how to spell banns, just in case any future historian is reading these words. It was spelled correctly when the minister used the word "banns" but incorrectly when I spelled it, but I do know that it has two "n's." Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, I am sure the remarks and undertaking that I issued with regard to the United Church records would also apply to any other church records that we have which belong to other Christian denominations that formed part of the United Church which I believe came into being about 1925.

That brings up another issue which the department must be sensitive and mindful of is that I do believe, although I am not of the Protestant persuasion, that there is still a subsisting Presbyterian Church that still exists and functions today in Canada. So, therefore, if we do hold records of the Presbyterian Church, we would have to get the permission of the heirs at law to that original congregation of the Presbyterian Church if in fact they have any claim to them. So, therefore, albeit we want to be as proactive as possible, we must ensure that any other denomination that has any claim to this property is protected and so I am sure my honourable colleague is aware of this and would facilitate this sort of a transfer under that sort of understanding.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Item 5.1.(e) Vital Statistics Agency--pass. (d) Research and Planning (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $153,100.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, we have agreed that we would go back to this particular section, Research and Planning, and spend the next 45 minutes or so talking about this part of the department.

Mr. Chairman, we had left off last day talking about franchise legislation and the merits of it or demerits of it, and what I wanted to deal with just initially today was for us to go back for a few minutes to talk about the condition of the Elmwood Cemetery. We spent some time talking about it the other day, but in the last hour or two I had occasion to visit the cemetery because of a complaint from a constituent about the water being almost high enough that it was going to go over the banks. There is some erosion very near, in close proximity to where the graves were removed just recently, that it is going to cave in any moment now. Whether that will lead to further erosion and get closer to the graves that you are trying to protect, and how quick that will happen, I am not sure, but just thought that you should know that.

What I really wanted to ask you today was that it is my understanding that the owner of the Elmwood Cemetery evidently owns another cemetery in Winnipeg. Were you aware of that, and is that in fact true?

Mr. Radcliffe: I am aware, Mr. Chair, that the owner of the Elmwood Cemetery did own another cemetery. I think it was the Garry Memorial. This was a graveyard out on McGillivray Boulevard, and I am advised that this particular piece of property was sold off a number of years ago and so is no longer in the corporate ownership of the corporation that owns the Elmwood Cemetery. Now I only have second-hand information on this. I have not done land titles research on this, but this is information that has been relayed to me so that, unfortunately, because I followed down the very path that my honourable colleague is thinking about right now, although I am being anticipatory, there is no other source of wealth or production of income available to this corporation right now. It has, in fact, been denuded or stripped of any other assets than the Elmwood Cemetery. I was also inquiring whether there was another source of income or revenue which could be used to flow into supporting or maintaining the Elmwood location, and I am told that there is not.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I just became aware of this myself, and it was suggested to me that one of the city councillors had made this suggestion that in fact this owner did own another cemetery in south Winnipeg and evidently came here occasionally to pick up his cheques, the point being that this south-end Winnipeg cemetery was supposed to be a profitable operation. So, if that were true--I have no reason to disbelieve an elected city councillor for the City of Winnipeg--then we have a situation where we are probably being played with.

The whole scenario has been presented to me as an owner who has done his best and who lives in Ontario and is just not here anymore and that the good times are all gone. There is no money left, and he is some financial duress in terms of having to take care of these problems. The problems are being shovelled off on the taxpayers at the provincial and the city level. But, if in fact this owner has another profitable cemetery here and is doing quite well in life, I do not know what moral imperatives there are here, but some effort should be made to, if not legally, enforce what we can to make him make amends here. There should be some effort made to get him to fulfill his obligations, as I see them anyway.

Mr. Radcliffe: The information that I have, and I am certainly willing to research this some more, is that there was another cemetery out on McGillivray Boulevard that was owned by the same corporation or the same individual. That second site out on McGillivray has been sold and the value for that has gone. I believe that that is a profitable graveyard and, in fact, has additional vacant land within that graveyard site which is available to be sold to members of the public to generate more income. What the particulars of that sale were, I do not know, but in fact the bottom line that I was advised was that there are no other assets within the province of Manitoba, which are exigible, owned by this particular individual.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, in the Research and Planning report given here, there is an indication of work that has been done by the Research and Planning department vis-a-vis the federal government and federal legislation regulating disclosure of the cost or credit, and then the harmonization of these two areas would make it easier for businesses to operate in more than one province. Can the minister update us as to what, in fact, is being accomplished here and what is being done?

Mr. Radcliffe: I am pleased to be able to advise my honourable colleague that under the harmonization of direct sellers, there were a number of Consumer Protection Act amendments effected last year under the act. They were passed in the last session of the Legislature. They have yet to be proclaimed, but they are as a direct result of research, planning and policy direction coming from this department of Research and Planning, with regard to harmonizing the regulations being imposed on direct sellers, to bring our environment into compliance with the regulatory environment of other provinces across the country.

I am told that currently we are now working on the regulations and the forms which will be used. Once that step is done, then the changes to the legislation will be proclaimed; that we are expecting soon.

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With regard to the cost of credit, I am told that here again there is a very distinct initiative that is being effected by our department of Research and Planning in communicating, conferring and collaborating with other provinces to develop legislative templates to again show consistency of wording, consistency of forms. This will be, I am told, a long-term exercise and a long-term product. We do not anticipate that we will see any tangible results in this department for at least one to two years, because it is a highly technical field, and it is a very collaborative exercise. We have a lot of players involved and a lot of people with different opinions and different environments that have got to be brought on line.

Those are just two examples in that area where Mr. Anderson and his department have been communicating, working and exchanging ideas and correspondence with all the different provinces across the country. I might add that the initiative of our department has been that although we jealously guard individual provincial autonomy on our regulatory areas, we equally are as vigorous and proactive at working as quickly as we can towards harmonizing regulations, harmonizing forms, harmonizing standards and regulatory environment, so that individual corporations or individuals operating in areas of commercial credit or in any areas of finance and security will have consistent treatment, be they operating in Vancouver; or be they operating in Sydney, Nova Scotia; or even operating in Winnipeg.

We believe that if we are able to do this, then the overall long-term impact to Winnipeg and to the province of Manitoba will be that it will not then be as significant where a particular direct seller or a security issue or an individual is physically located, and, in fact, if they so chose because of quality of life or family connections or whatever, they could locate in Winnipeg and not be obligated to gravitate to the large commercial centres of Toronto and Montreal or Vancouver or Calgary, but rather that would then put Winnipeg more on the competitive edge, and people would then look at Winnipeg as an opportunity of locating here.

The hodgepodge of rules would not work to defeat our commercial interest but rather make this a more advantageous environment for the financial and economic players to locate here and basically build up our economy, because what is interesting, for every individual, be they a security issuer or direct seller, who may choose to operate in the Winnipeg environment, they bring with them needs for support people, be they printers or salespeople or lawyers or accountants or actuaries. There is a whole resource group that supports this sort of activity.

So we see and recognize and identify that it is very, very important that Winnipeg reclaim its position in ranking in the country as a financial player.

Mr. Maloway: The internal trade agreement is the framework that you are working around, and I know from previous conversations with the department that you are grappling with different issues regarding the internal trade agreement.

I would like a bit of expansion as to what activities this particular section of the department has been involved in as it relates to the internal trade agreement, because you have referenced two of them here in your report, but I understand there are other areas that they have been working on. Can you expand on that a bit?

Mr. Radcliffe: I would advise my honourable colleague that some other issues other than direct sellers and cost of credit, which we have already touched upon--one of them which I feel very strongly about is co-operative enforcement of business standards which is an issue that is talked about from province to province and falls under Research and Planning.

For example, a practical application of that would be some sort of enforcement of penalties, regulation or sourcing telemarketers, because I am sure my honourable colleague is aware, and I am particularly aware and put on the record at this point in time, that there are individuals in our country who will have the telephone numbers of vulnerable people, specifically in the city of Winnipeg. They will phone them up and they will inveigle these individuals to make useless purchases of a doubtful nature, of a small nature. It is a constant barrage. It is a constant--almost harassment sometimes of some of these individuals. To me this falls often in the area of elder abuse or vulnerable person abuse, and as my honourable colleague is aware, if these people are operating out of Toronto or Vancouver, or areas beyond our jurisdictional reach, then we are in effect powerless to invoke any penalty against them or to be able to contact them to moderate or to regulate how they behave.

Having said this, I do not want to create any unreasonable expectations that we are about to crack the telemarketing abuses in the world, but what this department does is discuss with other regulatory areas and identify individual corporations or individuals themselves who are abusing the interprovincial communication and being able to access them and to chastise or warn or mediate where these people can be identified.

Then, I am told, an additional area under the Internal trade agreement in which the department interacts with their colleagues in other departments for research and planning is out of franchising which we have already talked about at some length.

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Thirdly, I guess there is almost an open national forum amongst the individuals in these corresponding departments from province to province where any issue of any national or intraprovincial concern can be put on the table and discussed. I have talked about four issues at this point in time, but it is in fact an open-ended forum so that it is a resource facility where, I guess, it sort of ties Canada together. Although we are spread across a vast geographic space, it means that we can communicate with each other and regulate our environment so that it is a more harmonious environment for people to do business and to live.

Mr. Maloway: I would like to ask the minister then, this Internal trade agreement, are there any pressures being exerted on the government of Manitoba to compromise in some areas of regulation such as the Securities Commission and other areas like this?

For example, I have been told that, I guess if you were to run a streamlined efficient country, everything would be run out of Toronto. I guess that is where it is headed ultimately anyway, but there would be a desire on the part of people in Ontario to have a big super securities commission, because that is where all the trading is done and stuff like that. So the provinces are at a big disadvantage, trying to maintain their authority and control over that area. I am just wondering just what is in fact happening regarding that particular issue.

Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to be able to tell my honourable colleague that Manitoba in fact formed a leadership position in being quite assertive with Mr. Martin, the Minister of Finance, to--not repel, because that perhaps has a diminutive or a deprecating overtone, but to respond to question, and challenge the need for a national securities commission. This is an issue that is very current, and it is intermittent. It comes and goes, waxes and wanes, but right now, as we are heading into a federal election, the pressure on the Manitoba jurisdiction for a national securities commission has now significantly diminished. But two months ago, I can tell my honourable colleague, Mr. Martin was writing to all the different ministers across the country recommending and advocating the imposition of a national securities commission. He had circulated a memorandum of understanding, which he was inviting us to sign. I can tell my honourable colleague that I chose not to sign it. I chose to respond very vigorously and say that I had no problem with harmonization, which I have indicated already, but that I had absolutely no intention of surrendering any local autonomy over our trust company here in Manitoba or our securities people here in Manitoba.

We have reflected at some length on the vagaries of this particular issue, and I can tell my honourable colleague that the individual brokers across the country, the individual traders themselves, are not in agreement with this issue unless they happen to work in Toronto, but the Montreal securities commission, of course, are fiercely independent. They have a linguistic factor to take into account.

The Maritime investment dealers are, of course, not a vibrant issue at all. They are not major players, and equally Saskatchewan, but there is a securities commission in Alberta and another one in Vancouver, as well as the one in Ontario. We feel that quite possibly the--and this is again bordering on speculative, so I would want my honourable colleague to take my remarks on that basis that we do not have any hard evidence to support some of these conclusions that we have come to. Nonetheless, we felt that from our observation, the Ontario Securities Commission was looking for a source for financing, for funding, and had not been generously funded by the market in Toronto, although 85 percent of the trading in securities goes on. That is a reality in the environs of Toronto at this point in time.

So my honourable colleague is quite correct that the preponderance of the activity in the securities world does go on around Bay Street, and that is an economic reality which we must face. However, Investors Syndicate, which is our trust company out here, has a very, very active mutual fund business and, in fact, is pre-eminent in that particular activity and is a leader across the country.

What I chose to do, with appropriate consultation from people in the department, was to respond to Mr. Martin and say that we in Manitoba had no intention of entering into the memorandum of understanding. The memorandum of understanding called for a mutual surrender, a voluntary surrendering of authority or jurisdiction under the BNA Act, because this is an area--and I am not sure whether it is Section 92 or 93 of the BNA Act--where there is concurrent jurisdiction. What the memo of understanding was going to call for was that the provinces would voluntarily surrender authority to regulate in this area to a federal group, that there would be a national presence in Winnipeg, in Calgary, in Vancouver and in Montreal; however, the decisions and the real authority would rest in Toronto.

I personally felt that this was perhaps--and this was, I might add, being very vigorously promoted by members of the Ontario Securities Commission. I felt probably because they anticipated that they might be able to access positions on that board and that a meaningful regulation and meaningful management of the securities world would then move out of the regional capitals. That would realistically mean that any viable and meaningful commercial activity, fiscal bond trading, the decisions would all be made then on a regulatory basis out of Toronto.

I am sure I do not need to tell my honourable colleague that from a demographic base, as I am sure my honourable colleague comes from a very strong populous background, that what passes for regulatory rightness on Bay Street may not be meaningful on Portage Avenue or in Calgary or in Vancouver. We had the example of what euphemistically used to be referred to as the Howe Street heroes, because they performed in the penny mining stocks. That was an environment that was unique across the country. So there would be behaviour, trades activity, which would be quite unique to British Columbia and to that environment, which could be shut down perhaps if somebody was looking at it from far away in Bay Street. So that we saw that there was a real risk for wiping out whatever chances we would have to be a trading centre.

What I would also add from a point of view of securities exchange or securities trading is that there is research going on right now as we speak into creation of an interactive exchange. We may be moving to ultimately the area of almost a virtual reality in securities exchange where it does not matter where you may reside. You could reside in Brandon or in Winnipeg or in Regina, and if you have a terminal and an outlet, you then would be able to conduct your business on a national level through an exchange. So therefore this would, I would suggest, give the impetus for the Winnipeg Stock Exchange to become a much more viable and active entity again as it was back in the '20s and the '30s.

I would further add, for my honourable colleague's information, that the different exchanges across the country are working on a system of harmonization of regulation called SEDAR, which will bring some harmony of regulations for prospectuses, for behaviour of professional ethics, for traders, et cetera, so that this is a major step towards making us a unitary, bringing the best of a unitary control without abandoning the federalist component which is, I think, an integral reality to the national fabric of Canada. Some of the proponents of a national securities commission point to the United States and say, ah, well, but in the United States they have a national securities commission so that somebody who is wanting to do an issue coming from abroad has only one authority to deal with and one set of regulations and one set of prospectuses that then can be issued. Therefore those type of environments prosper more because they get much more activity, because somebody who wants to do this financing only does it in one jurisdiction.

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I would counter that, and I did to Mr. Martin by saying that with the SEDAR harmonization, which is ongoing right now, that we will have all of the advantages of that unitary commission without giving up our local independence. I think that is really, truly a Canadian solution, plus this is something then as well that comes from the bottom up, and the participants are the local securities commissions as they are found across the country, and they participate and harmonize voluntarily rather than having something from a central government imposed from the top down, which I think would be a detriment to any sort of governance situation in our country.

Mr. Maloway: Well, it sounds like you are headed in the right direction on that one, so far anyway.

I would like to ask you which of the provinces then are allying themselves with Paul Martin on this issue then, or is this just the federal government versus all of the provinces?

Mr. Radcliffe: It gets even more byzantine and obscure, Mr. Chairman, because what I have further been advised is that Mr. Martin's power base, his financial base comes out of the province of Quebec. The Quebecois are virulently opposed to any national securities commission, albeit Mr. Eves, who is the chair of the Ontario Securities Commission, where I think the major impetus comes, is one of the chief proponents of the national securities commission. One thing that was rather curious was that there had been, on one of the earlier drafts of the memorandum of understanding, a discussion of compensation to the different regional jurisdictions, which, in my mind, went nowhere near being appropriate because, of course, I can tell my honourable colleague that we derive a significant source of income from this area of securities registration.

All of a sudden, that compensation issue was dropped. If I were a betting man, which I am not, of course, one might assume that there might have been some sort of negotiations that had gone on amongst some of the proponents of this scheme. Again, I am giving my honourable colleague some of the news, some of the gossip, some of the analysis of this issue. I can tell my honourable friend, from an objective, documentary point of view, that there has not been a response, although I invited a response to my letter from Mr. Martin, but there have been a number of other provinces who, subsequent to Manitoba's lead, did circulate--all the appropriate ministers copy each other when they do respond. There have been a number of other provinces, I believe Alberta and British Columbia, who both copied me, who said they wanted more information and they were not keen to get on board.

Now, one of the problems that we are facing in this environment as well, Mr. Chair, and I would point out to my honourable colleague, is that nowadays many of the brokerage houses are owned by the line banks. All right. The line banks are all federally regulated. In fact, that has been an economic strength of our country to have national regulation of the line banks, the federal reserve system, the Bank of Canada and all that that brings to the fiscal picture.

So when one talks to a senior owner of Dominion Securities or Wood Gundy or Nesbitt Thomson or whatever, when they are in the banking environment, they say, well, what is your problem with national regulation? We are regulated nationally. We have prospered. Look how prosperous we are. Therefore, your fears are groundless. That is another one of the components that we are dealing with.

I would suggest that, when you are dealing with the head offices of these brokerage houses that impact on the Securities Commission, there is a different culture there. It is not a simplistic, straight-line problem. In fact, there is some merit to what Mr. Martin has suggested from the point of view of harmonization because you want to simplify, you want to make it consistent, have consistent regulation across the country, but then I bring to the table, as do a number of my other colleagues, the issue of local autonomy.

Mr. Maloway: I guess what I have been getting at here is what the hook is, if there in fact is one. I mean we saw what the federal government did surrounding the harmonization in the combining of the taxes. I mean, where it reached a roadblock, it got its way around it by writing cheques, so I suspect but I do not know that that is the same sort of approach that they would use on you in this kind of a situation, where they would work a trade-off where you give us this and we will give you something else in another area.

We know this to be true, that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) must be under some pressure when he talks to Paul Martin to harmonize the Manitoba tax. We know that must be going on at every conference, every discussion they have.

So you have your own difficulties dealing with the national scene. I am sure that every minister in the government has the similar sort of problems, and at what point does it become sacrificed in a trade-off, or what is the price that at the end of the day the government will go along with some sort of national securities commission?

I know that you personally seem to be supportive and willing to fight, but how strong is the will and at what point does the dike crumble?

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Mr. Radcliffe: Well, I can tell my honourable colleague that it will not be at 26.5 feet for this minister.

I think that I try to come to the table with an open mind on this, but the parameters of what I am proposing are that I want to see a viable securities environment in the city of Winnipeg. I want to see a viable securities exchange. I want to see Winnipeggers have access to commodity trading, to securities trading, and, in fact, I believe that our Securities Commission is developing a niche market for what they call the small fundings, which is something under $50 million. To you and me, it is an academic figure, but in the world that we are talking about right now, this is looked upon as something almost beneath the interest or the notice of many of the security people who raise security financing in Toronto or Montreal.

We see the economic future of Manitoba and indeed western Canada to be based on support for small business. Small business has a need for public offerings, so if we have a securities exchange which focuses on producing financing where people can go public, corporations can go public, and solicit sufficient capital to finance enterprises in western Canada, that they do not have to go to Toronto for this, this again, as I mentioned earlier, not only enhances the viability of small corporations in Manitoba and western Canada, but it brings with it, as well, a whole support environment.

There are lawyers who are involved with this. There are actuaries and accountants; there are printers. There is a whole support group which comes with this sort of world which does nothing but add to the economic viability of Winnipeg and Manitoba as a whole.

Mr. Maloway: Before we leave this area, I would like to ask the minister whether he would endeavour to release a copy of the memorandum of understanding that he referred to that he received from Paul Martin and which I assume that he is simply not responding to or he has filed somewhere.

Mr. Radcliffe: I have responded and I have responded most vigorously to Mr. Martin, and I have my honourable colleague's request. I will take it under advisement and contact him very shortly on that.

Mr. Maloway: Then perhaps the minister would endeavour to table both the memorandum of understanding and his response to it. As it sounds like it is going to enhance his position, I am sure he would be willing to do that.

Mr. Radcliffe: I will also take that request under advisement, and I thank my honourable colleague for that.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, moving right along here in Research and Planning, I do have some very specific questions, but there is something that has come to mind that I should deal with because, as the minister knows, there is a time problem with the Estimates. We do not know how many hours we are going to have at this point.

I wanted to make certain that I would ask questions of the minister about the status of the grants that this department makes. There were a couple of years ago--well, you may not recall because you may not have been here then--but the government made a very political decision. At the same time while it was cutting funding to friendship centres in this province and cutting funding to a number of other valuable centres that had been receiving funding grants for a number of years, it, I think, increased the funding, and if not increased it, certainly maintained the funding, to the Consumers' Association. At that time that whole organization was subject to question because it was quite apparent to us that it was basically an extension of the provincial government. It was basically a propaganda outlet for the provincial government. The president, as a matter of fact, eventually moved on to be a Tory candidate in Crescentwood and was soundly defeated, as I recall. Anyway, she now sits on the PUB, on the Public Utilities Board, and has been on the--well, perhaps the minister could clarify that. In any event, now the minister is up to speed on where I am coming from with these questions.

I know that in the case, and the minister will recall the other day that when we were discussing--and there are just many examples. But, when we had committee hearings in this Legislature in 1988-89 and we were introducing bills to deal with the lemon law and franchising, but certainly with lemon law, I do recall that the president of the Motor Dealers Association at that time and the president of the Consumers' Association at that time were deliberately working in concert misrepresenting the intent of the lemon-law legislation saying that it was going to harm car dealers when in fact even they knew that it was designed to protect the car dealers, in fact, as much as the public, from car manufacturers. This alliance kind of continued in a whole range of areas, and basically the president was acting as a mouthpiece for the government.

It was very interesting to us that, when it came time to cut grants and save the government money, the friendship centres were cut and a whole range of centres was cut in funding, but this organization was not. So I just wondered, I had not heard much about this organization over the last couple of years, and I was not sure whether the past president, past defeated Tory candidate, perhaps past member of the PUB, is involved in this or not. We just have not heard anything.

Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, I can advise my honourable colleague that the individual to whom he is making reference is a fine upstanding member of our community by the name of Ms. Hillard, Jenny Hillard. He is quite correct when he recollects that Ms. Hillard did run for the Progressive Conservatives in, I think it was, the 1988 election or '90.

Mr. Maloway: It was a by-election.

Mr. Radcliffe: It was a by-election, indeed. It was a by-election, and despite her tireless efforts she was defeated and has gone on to greener pastures. She did continue, however, to serve the people of Manitoba because she is a consumers' advocate and has been a consumers' advocate for much of her life. I can tell my honourable colleague that I am personally acquainted with her because I in fact was her official agent during that election. So I can bring some personal, intimate knowledge to the table as to the quality of the commitment that she made to the people of Manitoba and the tireless effort she made in seeking public office. A finer candidate we would not want to find. I would, perhaps, question the perspicacity of the individual voters of Fort Rouge-Crescentwood when they overlooked choosing her as their representative.

However, I remember in the words of Charlie Mayer, who is another fine public servant, who said during the federal election when I was seeking public office, that you may not always agree with them, and they may not always be polite, but the voter is always right. So you know the bottom line: We must live with the will of the voter. However, I can advise my honourable colleague that Ms. Hillard went on to serve on the Public Utilities Board, and I believe she sits on the Premier's Round Table on Economic Development as well. She has since resigned her position at the Public Utilities Board because she has gone on to what I think is a national or an international consumers' bureau, and she felt that she was going to be in conflict.

So, to her personal acknowledgement, I applaud her moral integrity that she gave up a very, very high income-producing fiscal plum of sitting on the board, because she got paid handsomely for that, and she gave that up in order to pursue her interests. This is not a person who is financially independent. It was to her detriment financially that she surrendered her position on the Public Utilities Board, so I think the record should show that she is a person of high moral worth and character.

However, to resort back to the two issues that my honourable colleague was mentioning, we do support, to the tune of about $87,000, the Community Financial Counselling Service and the Consumers' Association of Canada, Manitoba branch. The Community Financial Counselling Service, we are one of their supporters, and I know a person, an acquaintance, Zoran Maksimovich, is the individual who is involved with that. These people go out and interact in the community, assist people who are having financial problems and give them advice as to how to get their financial affairs in order. Then, of course, the Consumers' Association of Canada, Manitoba branch, is a consumers' advocacy group which is a watchdog, perhaps a public watchdog for standards and values that we would want to see in the commercial world.

So these are the two groups that we have supported, and I am sure my honourable colleague is aware that--Mr. Chairman, you have indicated that my time is up.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Order, please. The hour being 6 p.m., committee rise.