Madam Speaker, yesterday in this House the member for Kildonan--and I will follow up my comments with a substantive motion if that is a requirement--came forward with samples of food that he stated to this House were being served at the Health Sciences Centre as part of the Urban Shared Services initiative to consolidate food services.

Indeed, I believe he attempted during Question Period to have those food samples provided to me, and because of our rules with respect to props, et cetera, he was not allowed to do that. However, following Question Period I did ask him for those samples which he provided to me. Because, like him, I honestly believe when we come to this House we have an obligation to bring information, we have an obligation to do so with the best accuracy we possibly can, and I was concerned that if these rather awful-looking samples of food were in fact the products that the member said they were, it gave me great concern. So I took them. He did provide them to me freely after Question Period, and I forwarded them to the Health Sciences Centre.

Madam Speaker, in the course of Question Period the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) said very categorically, and I think if you check Hansard--and I was able to do that today as yesterday's Hansard is now available--the member for Kildonan did say that--and he said: "I will ask one of the pages to," and I quote, "pass on to the minister some samples of frozen food that are now being distributed at Health Sciences Centre of which I cannot tell the difference whether it is porridge or vegetables, or whether this frozen food is in fact pineapple or whatever. I am going to ask the page to pass this on to the minister." And I quote again: "It came from the Health Sciences Centre." Further on, the member in the next question indicated that the food, and I quote, "is destined for the patients of Manitoba."

Madam Speaker, when we do those types of things, particularly when we are talking about food that is destined for people who are sick and in hospital, who have enough other things to worry about, the accuracy of what we bring to this House becomes very, very important.

Madam Speaker, because I share with most members of this House an interest in having factual debate, and I say where I have been wrong or where I have been mistaken, I have apologized. The member for Kildonan on one occasion pointed out an inaccuracy of some information that I unknowingly brought to this House, and I apologized for it. So, in the interests of being accurate, I forwarded those samples to the Health Sciences Centre, the facility from which the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) clearly indicated the food had come from and was being distributed to patients. I received this morning a letter from Mr. Jim Rodger who is the assistant to the president and corporate secretary, and as a result of our inquiry I would like to share that with this House. I will table a copy of this letter for members to share. But I would like to quote this letter.

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It is to myself, and it says, regarding frozen food items said to originate at the Health Sciences Centre: "Yesterday afternoon your office sent me three objects which, I am advised, were given to you with the suggestion that they (a) originated from the Health Sciences Centre and (b) had been supplied to the Health Sciences Centre by Urban Shared Services Corporation, (USSC). Your office has requested that we identify the objects by substance and source, if possible.

"I advise as follows:

"Object 1

Description: Frozen yellow substance contained in small plastic bowl.

Substance: Scrambled eggs.

Source: Unknown, but definitely not the Health Sciences Centre. The small plastic bowls are not containers we stock in our Department of Nutrition & Food Services nor is this packaging like any we have ever seen from USSC.

"Object 2

Description: Frozen grey substance contained in small plastic bowl.

Substance: Porridge made from rolled oats.

Source: Unknown, but definitely not the Health Sciences Centre."

See comments above on containers which apply to this object as well.

"Object3

Description: Toast slice contained in plastic bag."

I know, Madam Speaker, this particular matter where toast is being made has had great public debate among some in the labour movement, with an impression trying to be made that toast is going to be brought in from Toronto. But what is very interesting is the comment on this matter. I know this may give jest to some, but it is a serious matter when one is bringing to this House and making allegations.

Substance description--a toast slice contained in a plastic bag, I quote again, Madam Speaker.

"Substance: One slice of rye bread, toasted and unbuttered."

Source--of course, it is impossible to determine. It certainly "could have come from any hospital (including this one), institution or personal residence with access to rye bread and a toaster. It is not toast provided to this hospital by USSC."

A very important point because that is what the member said it was.

"We do not provide toast to patients in plastic bags, in any case, so unless the toast was placed in the bag after it left its source we can definitively say it did not originate in this hospital."

What is also interesting is "This item less the plastic bag is, however, representative of the quality of toast we are able to provide patients with our present food production facilities. It is noteworthy that recent tests of the USSC production/distribution system at this hospital demonstrated the ability of that new system to provide toast to patients of a quality unquestionably better than our present antiquated production facilities enable us to do.

"I trust this information will be helpful to you."

Madam Speaker, I will table a copy of that letter, in fact, several copies of that letter for members opposite, including the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak).

I believe Erskine May, in his 21st edition, indicates very clearly that the facts on which a question is based may be set out as briefly as practicable within the framework of a question provided that the member asking it makes himself responsible for their accuracy.

Madam Speaker, from time to time, we, as members of this House, are given information that proves to be less than accurate. The member for Kildonan and I have always, I believed, had a relationship where we tried to be as accurate as possible. If the member has been misled by someone, if some individual or organization involved in this dispute provided that material to the member for Kildonan unsubstantiated, I will accept that. That happens to us all, but if the member for Kildonan, as would appear from his comments and from the facts of what he in fact did bring to this Assembly, attempted to leave the impression with members of this House that that very poor-quality-looking food was what Manitoba patients could expect, that is unacceptable. That is unacceptable because it does not--because members of this House have an obligation to the best of their ability to debate the facts and bring factual information to this House. They have an obligation to debate issues on the facts, and if the member has brought that substance and made the claim, as he did in his comments, that it was being served at Health Sciences Centre and is part of what Manitoba patients will get under the new system, then, Madam Speaker, that is not factual. Not only is it not factual, but he is deliberately then trying to mislead this House by implying that it were so.

I would very much hope that is not the case, that the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) in fact may have been misled by someone who provided those samples to him. I would hope that is the case, and if it is, I will gladly accept that and withdraw my motion. But if the member opposite has brought samples to this House, claiming, as he did, as I quoted from Hansard, that they were being served at Health Sciences Centre, that they were destined for the patients of Manitoba when in fact they are not in any way part of that kitchen--in fact the toast that he brought to claim would be poor-quality toast is the quality that is being served today in the hospitals of our province--that would be, I believe, a gross misrepresentation, a deliberate one, and would not be worthy of a member of this House.

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Consequently, and with great sadness, and I say very clearly--[interjection] Well, some members opposite like the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) appear to be saddened by this, but they forget that the patients of Manitoba who will be in that hospital rely on factual information in public debate. They rely on us debating the facts, and I will debate the facts with anyone. If I am wrong, then I will change my view. But what was brought to this House yesterday, when sent back to that facility, was in no way, as the letter indicates, from that facility. One can only assume from that that there was a deliberate attempt made to mislead members of this House and the people of Manitoba.

So, consequently, Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded by the honourable government House leader, that the honourable member for Kildonan apologize to this House and the people of Manitoba for placing inaccurate and false information before the House which caused unnecessary concern and fear about the quality of health care food services in Manitoba.

Motion presented.

Madam Speaker: I will now recognize the honourable member for Thompson with relation to advice on this matter of privilege.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to begin, by the way, by suggesting that the prime reference for deciding whether there is a matter of privilege might be Beauchesne, and I look at the member for Riel (Mr. Newman) who seems to feel that Beauchesne is an outdated reference. I would suggest that perhaps now that the government is taking an opportunity of bringing up a matter of privilege, I will be interested to see if the member for Riel now gets up and suggests that this is not a matter of privilege under an irrelevant text like Beauchesne. I say that ironically because the key deciding point that we have to provide advice to you is indeed whether under Beauchesne there is a prima facie case of a matter of privilege.

Now, first of all, I want to say that it takes some gall on the part of this minister one day after the Question Period that we had yesterday when the issue of the--what is the term?--rethermalized food that is going to be served is currently being served in a number of medical institutions in this province. I find it interesting because the minister--and I did, I admit, indicate some sense of crocodile tears from this Minister of Health who expressed concern that somehow the member for Kildonan might create some fear about the quality of this to-be-served frozen, rethermalized food.

I find that interesting because the Minister of Health--I want to read to you what he said about the existing food. He said: "Yes, we want high-quality food, but who can stand here today and tell us that hospital food currently is wonderful and delightful food? When my daughter was in hospital, I can tell you it was not the most appetizing food that she received regularly." Madam Speaker, I think the Minister of Health should apologize for the people that work very hard to provide that food, nutritional food.

Madam Speaker, I tell you we have not got to the point yet where the major goal--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member for Thompson this is not the opportunity to debate the motion, but you are to be providing the Chair with advice regarding whether the matter is indeed a matter of privilege and should be dealt with expeditiously.

Mr. Ashton: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I was referencing a specific part of the motion of the matter of privilege.

I say to members opposite that the prime purpose I believe of hospital food--and by the way, there are echoes here of the former Leader of the Liberal Party. I remember the criticism that Sharon Carstairs received from government members when she, I think in the 1990 election campaign, said that we should be charging for nonessentials like hospital food.

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I heard the minister yesterday stand up here and talk about this terrible situation where we are spending money on hospital food. Madam Speaker, hospital food is essential. It is an essential part of maintaining patients' health, and it is indeed an essential item. We are very concerned about this government's move--you know, I find it interesting that a letter from the Health Sciences referred to a frozen yellow substance and a frozen grey substance. They are bringing in--they are already serving rethermalized, frozen food. Just ask the residents of Riverview. If the government doubts that people have concern--there was a very interesting media story yesterday, and it asked: what of the patients? You know, let us put aside for a moment--I do not think the Minister of Health and even our Health critic should be the judge of this. Ask one of the elderly patients in Riverview what had happened to hospital food when they brought in this frozen, rethermalized material. He said the quality dropped. Now does that surprise anyone? The Minister of Health can criticize the hard work of the many people who have worked for many years to provide nutritious hospital food, but I can tell you nobody in this province thinks that if you have rethermalized, frozen food, you are going to get better-quality food.

I realize there was some difficulty because the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) could not officially table this food, Madam Speaker, because we are not allowed to have exhibits tabled in this particular circumstance, but I do say to the Minister of Health--and indeed I know the member for Kildonan will indeed provide more examples of this, and I called it alleged food yesterday. But I think he should understand the point here. Whether indeed he is concerned--[interjection] Well, the minister talks about the truth. The truth is we are already having rethermalized, frozen food. If they eliminate the current system, not only of 300, 400 jobs, we are going to have no doubt the same thing that has happened in other provinces. It is going to happen here. We are going to have this frozen food brought in. Manitobans do not accept that.

The reason the member for Kildonan came here yesterday and tried to provide examples of this food to the Minister of Health is because we cannot believe that anyone on the government side has even seen this stuff yet, because if they have seen it, they will drop the plan and they will reinstate the jobs and the excellent work of the many people in the health care field who have been providing our institutions with very, I would say, nutritional food and certainly something that is better than this frozen whatever. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind all honourable members that, according to Beauchesne 501, "Speakers have consistently ruled that it is improper to produce exhibits of any sort in the Chamber." I would ask for the co-operation of the member for Kildonan in removing those exhibits from his desk so he not be tempted to show them. I thank the honourable member for Kildonan.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to deal with the issue that is raised by the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik). I have been on many, many occasions in this House on the other side of this issue. In fact, on many, many occasions the previous minister and the previous, previous minister and now the current incumbent minister have made statements in this House that are totally inaccurate, and I have been on the other side of the issue, and I have yet to receive an acknowledgement or an apology from members on that side of the House on the obvious, with one exception.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. A matter of privilege is indeed a very serious matter. The honourable member for Kildonan is attempting to justify the matter of privilege that has been raised against him and deserves consideration in putting his remarks on the record.

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Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, I think it is incumbent upon all of us in this Chamber to in fact be as accurate in the information we portray as possible, and I would dare say in my experience in this Chamber we have done so without question.

Madam Speaker, in 1992-93, when we said in this House the government was cutting home care, the member for Pembina, the then Minister of Health stood up and said we were making it up. One week later, after the budget, after the government had cut home care, we determined that, in fact, despite being called naysayers, despite being called liars by members opposite, which we were in the hallway, we were right. When we said Connie Curran would be paid $3.9 million plus expenses, tax-free U.S., they said we were making that up. When we tabled the contract, they did not apologize. When we submitted a Treasury Board submission that said this government was going to privatize home care, they said we were making it up, even though it was the minister from Brandon's Treasury Board submission and even though it had gone to cabinet and we tabled it. Did we hear a word of apology from members opposite? Did we hear a word of apology?

Madam Speaker, when the Minister of Health went in the hallway during the home care strike and misled Manitobans with respect to the emergency strike, and when his own deputy minister contradicted him, and when the officials who were at a meeting contradicted him, did the Minister of Health, even though I raised a point of privilege, stand up and apologize? No, that went right into the great black hole of deniability and arrogance of these members opposite who have been government too long, who have seen us through nine years of cutbacks.

Madam Speaker, I was approached last week and provided with samples of food. I was told that these samples were part of a pilot project at Health Sciences Centre. I was told this, and subsequent to that I went back to my source and I said: can you vouch 100 percent that this material came from Health Sciences Centre pilot project? My source said: Yes; it was a pilot done at the Health Sciences Centre.

Now I know that Riverview is doing this. I know that Riverview, as part of the major project, is doing this. You know, if we are talking about misleading the House, perhaps the minister yesterday who, in reply to my question, gave the implication that the food was not going to come out of the country and out of the province--and I said to the minister: why do you not talk to your own head of USSC who said, and I quote, the food we processed in a variety of kitchens across Canada, that is your hand-picked, hand-appointed head of your central committee. He goes on further to quote, and I quote, it will be cooked elsewhere and then flown here. It will be chilled and transported here primarily by truck, I would think. That is your head of your committee--so if an apology is in order, perhaps the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) ought to consider his comments yesterday.

But, Madam Speaker, I value the foundations and the integrity of this House. The Minister of Health came forward with a letter from the Health Sciences Centre. God knows how much time and energy must have been placed by the Department of Health with the longest waiting lists in the country, with the longest waiting list for CAT scans, the longest waiting list for MRI, and for people who cannot get cardiac surgery, who have to wait eight months to get surgery--and the Minister of Health has to send staff people to the Health Sciences Centre to get letters of confirmation, and does that not say something about the state of health in Manitoba? But having said that--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Chomiak: We know that Manitobans are going to get rethermalized food in their institution. That is a fact. We know that Riverview hospital is rethermalizing food. I was told that that food was a pilot project at the Health Sciences Centre. I have before me a letter from Jim Rodger, the assistant to the president, and I do not know how much, again, time and energy was spent on this particular issue. You know, this actually is very frustrating. I do not know how many issues we raise in this Legislature about waiting lists. I do not know how many times we raise real health concerns about doctors who are not available in rural communities, about the closure of hospitals, about the closure of beds, about the lack of nurses. The minister spent an inordinate amount of executive time running over to the Health Sciences Centre in order to make a political point, and that, Madam Speaker, I think speaks volumes about why this government has mismanaged health care for nine years and will not get another opportunity to do so after the next election.

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But I am faced with a letter from the Health Sciences Centre that denies that in fact this was the food. I am going to accept this letter. I will apologize for reference in yesterday's comments to the fact that the frozen food that is going to be instituted in the province of Manitoba, that is being instituted at Riverview Health Centre, according to this letter, did not come from Health Sciences Centre. So I will withdraw my reference to the Health Sciences Centre because of the letter that is on file, but I will not withdraw the obvious fact that Manitobans are going to be getting frozen food, and in references already indicated, rethermalized food, that it is presently happening in Riverview Centre.

But in the face of this letter, I do not think I have any choice but to acknowledge that this food did not come from the Health Sciences Centre, and I will apologize for that aspect of my comments.

Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, in a somewhat circuitous and circumloquacious way, the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) has accepted responsibility for his error yesterday. I will leave it for the honourable Minister of Health to determine how he feels about that, but depending on what the honourable Minister of Health may say at this point, may have disposed of the matter raised.

As I say, both honourable members for Thompson and Kildonan took some time to come around to the actual apology that we did hear. I know it came from the honourable member for Kildonan because, in spite of everything else he does around here, he is an honourable member and brought forward his apology, and we may want to leave it at that.

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I did not expect the member for Kildonan in any way to accept, as a matter of policy, changes that are helping in our food services system. We will debate that, and time will be the judge of it when that operates. The point that I wanted to make was that when we come to this House, information be as accurate as possible, and I understand that from time to time information is brought to us.

I would like to accept the member's apology and withdraw my motion because I believe that is all I wanted to be able to do, and that is acceptable.

Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) and the honourable Minister of Health for resolving this issue.