4th 36th Vol. 17--Oral Questions

Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us this morning sixty Grade 7 students from Bruce Middle School, under the direction of Mrs. Marie Blake and Mr. Kevin Dyck. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this morning.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, we have been continuing to receive calls from residents of the southeast Winnipeg area, residents of St. Boniface, nurses, doctors that have pointed out to us that the number of staff that this Premier has cut is not 200 but in fact, since 1992, close to 900 people in the hospital, and they are absolutely shocked that this Premier, after cutting their staff, after closing down parts of the eighth floor, after cutting the swing beds at St. Boniface, contrary to the advice that they had given this Premier, would then blame the "management" of St. Boniface, management, of course, which has been put in place by the voluntary board of St. Boniface Hospital.

I would like to ask the Premier again today to apologize to those people, to those volunteers, to that community for his vicious comments the other day and his inaccurate comments about the situation at St. Boniface.

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Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I am very cognizant of the fact that our rules do not permit me to call the Leader of the Opposition a liar, and so I will be very careful not to do that.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, the Premier is totally out of order. Beauchesne is very clear that the members cannot either directly or in this case indirectly use terms like that. Given the discipline we have shown in not using that word to apply to that Premier, I think it would be only appropriate that you would call him to order and once again ask him not to break the rules of this House.

Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order.

Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I was not going to contribute to this discussion, but the discipline in the New Democratic Party ranks is clearly lacking. The honourable member for Thompson has clearly not been listening to what has been going on if he suggests that honourable members on his side of the House have not been breaching the rules respecting this sort of language since this session resumed just a week or so ago.

The honourable member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) has very clearly breached the rules in reference, and I have raised this matter with your colleague, Madam Speaker, so I will not re-raise it, but the Premier has clearly breached no rules in his comment this morning, and I urge you to rule accordingly.

Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, I would caution the honourable First Minister that any reference even to that word causes disruption in the House, and the rule is very specific in that the use of any word that causes disruption in the House is always identified as being unparliamentary.

Madam Speaker: The honourable First Minister, to complete his response.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, firstly, I appreciate your ruling. I will say very simply, as I said yesterday, that the member opposite ought to be careful in the manner in which he misrepresents statements that he alleges that I have made. I would just say to him that at no time--at no time--did I in any way blame the staff at the hospital for the circumstances that prevail there. I repeat that this province invests $1.93 billion a year in health care, over 34 percent of our budget, the second-highest level of support of any province in Canada. We remain committed to investing in health care in order to support the needs of the people of Manitoba.

Mr. Doer: When given the opportunity to take the highroad and apologize to the people that he commented on, the Premier again demonstrates his low-road approach to health care. I am very disappointed in the lack of leadership on the part of this Premier, both in terms of the integrity of this House and in the integrity of the cuts he has made in health care.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I would like to ask a further question. According to the minutes of 1997 at St. Boniface Hospital, labour management minutes, the government intends the establishment of the new WHA to take approximately $47 million out of health care and put $10 million back into the community health services. Can the Premier confirm again that this is a further set of cuts that is being anticipated by the WHA? Are these cuts going to be introduced now, or is he going to plan and not actually have a chance to implement these cuts after the next election campaign?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the member for Concordia, the Leader of the Opposition is referencing minutes of the Labour Management Committee meeting. I imagine in the course of that meeting a lot of issues get dealt with, some dealing with speculation about the future role of WHA plans. They are certainly not a representative body of decision making nor are they intended to. One of the great benefits of the WHA--and I should say very clearly it is not their intention to go in there and find savings to be taken out of health care; it is their intention and their purpose to find better ways of using the dollars that we do provide. I would reference what happened last winter with respect to the Grace Hospital, where we had a decline of some 3,000 births in the city of Winnipeg annually. By closing the obstetrics ward at the Grace, moving those mothers who would have given birth there to other facilities, where the marginal cost was virtually zero, it freed up $1.8 million annually to do more hip and knee replacements. Those are the kinds of things we are looking for.

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Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, this is a government that we do not trust. It said that it would put $600 million into capital after the federal budget. They said that that $600 million in capital would flow in spite of the massive cuts from the federal government, and then in June of 1995 they cancelled those cuts. They said that the reason then, after breaking their promise, was the fact that the federal budget forced them to do it, forced them to freeze capital for three years, but in fact at the same time they were freezing capital, they built up a pre-election slush fund of some $600 million, while they did not build our personal care home beds, which has led to the crisis in our hallways and in our health care facilities in Manitoba.

My question is to the Premier, who has gone through various Ministers of Health who have not been able to deliver on past promises. Why should we trust the Premier that their long-term plan is not to withdraw further money as indicated in the minutes of the WHA or the St. Boniface Hospital? Why should we trust him now, when he has broken his promise on capital in the past, he has broken his promise on staff in the past, and at the same time he has built up a slush fund of some $600 million?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, again, the Leader of the Opposition, if you listen very closely to his question, implies that these are minutes of the St. Boniface Hospital board. Earlier he indicated they were the minutes of the Labour Management Review Committee. That is a forum for discussing issues and concerns, and part of that is issues of rumours and speculation, and they are discussed at those meetings. That is part of the process, a very legitimate part of the process, but it is not an official body that is dealing with budgets.

I believe very sincerely that the efforts that we are embarking on in fundamentally reforming the structure of our system, we have seen those benefits, what can come out of that kind of centralization, regionalization in delivering our health care services. We have seen those benefits with the changes at the Grace Hospital, how dollars were freed up to deliver more and better services to the people of our province, and that is what it is about. Until we have that kind of regionalized approach and systematic approach for the city of Winnipeg, we will not be able to get the best out of our system. We intend to continue to move forward on that, and I believe very sincerely that once that has happened, we will start to see some very significant improvements in the delivery system.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, we are now saying that the government has three rules in dealing with the health care crisis. Number one is deny there is a crisis. Rule No. 2 is when that does not work, blame everyone and anyone except themselves, and the third one, when the first two rules do not work, the third rule is wait until next year. But we are starting to see what next year will look like with the release of the staffing for the regional health story in northeast, and I am wondering if the minister can indicate that the regional health authority will have six vice-presidents, a CFO, a COO and about half a dozen managers. Is this where the very little amount of new money for health care is going to go, into health care bureaucracy instead of patient care?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, this is where exaggeration leads to, I think, a very unfair debate. The North Eastman Regional Health Authority, when I visited their offices in Pinawa, which I do from time to time in meeting with their board, had their CEO and administrator; they had a person in charge of finance; and they had a secretary. They had three. That was some weeks ago. I suspect what the member is referencing is the fact that what they have done, and very responsibly, is they have identified people who are currently working in administration of the system and they have given them responsibility for various areas for the whole region. Individuals who were the CEOs of individual hospitals are now the chief operating officers because they work for the North Eastman Regional Hospital Authority. If the member would have visited their offices, he would have found three--it is a very sparse office, believe me. I have been there.

Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, I am wondering when the minister, who seems to have time to visit administrative offices but not St. Boniface Hospital which is in crisis, will face the reality that the Tory health care plan that we are supposed to wait until next year for is these new regional health authorities, new layers of bureaucracy, SmartHealth and cuts to patient care.

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Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I will never apologize for visiting with my constituents and the people who have sent me to this Legislature, nor will I apologize for meeting with regional health boards to deal with issues as we move forward. I meet regularly with officials from the Winnipeg Hospital Authority to deal with these types of issues, which is my responsibility and my role.

Madam Speaker, I can tell the member, in the North Eastman Regional Health Authority, because of regionalization, because of work in sharing resources of the region, we now have a dialysis program--because we worked co-operatively--we did not have before. We now have seen the use of our hospitals increase. We have an excellent physiotherapy program in Pinawa we did not have before, and we are moving towards major capital projects in Beausejour and Oakbank. The delivery of service in North Eastman is on a gradual progression of improvement because of regionalization. It is regrettable that members of the New Democratic Party do not want that to happen.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): A final question. Since the minister wishes to talk about meeting with people, will the minister do what we have done, go down to St. Boniface Hospital and talk to the patients who have been in the hallway, talk to the staff? Will he get out of the bunker, get out of meeting only with administrators in the health care system and deal with the staff and the patients that know we have a crisis in health care in this province?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I can tell you there is no bunker in which a Health minister can hide anywhere in this country, as myself and my colleagues would say.

Madam Speaker, I regularly make it a habit of touring facilities, of dropping in. I like to use the opportunity to drop in sometimes very unexpectedly on facilities. I have toured many facilities. I have not been in St. Boniface this week, but I have been in St. Boniface Hospital on a number of occasions. I even indicate to the member, I hope that--depending on planning with Estimates, I would like to visit his facilities in Thompson within the next few weeks. I would hope I would be welcome there.

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, in this budget the Minister of Finance wants to trumpet an increase in education funding, but in fact the truth of what has happened in education funding is that we have lost close to a hundred million dollars in the purchasing power of the provincial support for education, numbers which in fact the Minister of Education's staff have confirmed.

I want to give the Minister of Finance an opportunity to be straightforward, to be clear in his political discourse and to tell us the truth of what has happened in education financing, and that it has been a deliberate and systematic cut to public education and a planned long-term increase in the property taxes of Manitobans.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Absolutely not. I think all the member for Wolseley need do is look at our 1998 budget, and she will see a very strong commitment to education right across the board here in Manitoba. If you look at funding for kindergarten to Grade 12, Senior 4, you will see an increase of in excess of $16 million in funding for that very important area, 2.2 percent. If she looks at the funding for our post-secondary institutions, she will see in excess of $8 million provided directly to those institutions. If she looks at support for students directly, she will see many millions of dollars, $4 million to $5 million more of support being provided directly to students. She sees commitments for capital for our schools, for our maintenance and renovation of our school facilities, capital at our post-secondary institutions and so on.

In total, Madam Speaker, the increase in funding for education in this budget is almost $50 million. That is a significant commitment to education. We know the value of quality education, and we are supporting it with the dollars required.

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Ms. Friesen: I would like to ask the Minister of Education to explain why she promised stable funding for this year to school divisions--to quote from her press release: in a move designed to assist school divisions with planning for the future--when in fact what she intended was that more than 29 school divisions, some of them with little or no decrease in enrollment, would be facing severe provincial cuts and higher taxes.

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): The member knows and knows very well, as do school divisions, that in the last budget, when we indicated that for the first time we would be able to give an indication of multiyear financing, at least in a floor, so that they could plan for the future, we were able to announce that overall funding for education in Manitoba for public schools would stay the same in terms of the provincial amount put into all public schools. That in fact is the case. That did happen.

It was very clear at the time, and school divisions knew this and appreciated it, that because of fluctuations in enrollment in their school divisions, assessment changes in their school divisions, that did not mean that every division would get the same amount, or more, as the year before. It would depend upon--in some divisions where the enrollment has dropped, of course they get money per pupil and the funding that would flow would be less accordingly, but all school divisions indicated appreciation to be able to plan more accurately for the future as a result of knowing a floor for the next year.

Ms. Friesen: Could the Minister of Education explain why she has so little respect for those trustees in those 29 or more divisions who are now facing tax hikes of 11 percent, 13 percent; why she gave them no transition time, no time to prepare for the broken commitment that she has had?

Mrs. McIntosh: Most school divisions--in fact, I believe all will take the formula which is known to them which they helped us write, which all have said they wished to see stay in place, and take their known assessment, their known enrollment projections and work out a variety of scenarios based upon what they think the province might be giving. So they have plenty of opportunity, and they do develop certain scenarios based upon whether it is going to be a 1 percent increase, a 2 percent increase or what they estimate might be coming from the province. Based on that, they are able to make some pretty good guesstimates as to what their mill rate will be.

In the case of the division she mentioned where there is a 13 percent increase in the mill rate, which of course would be in their tax assess levy--is Brandon, of course. Yet in that area that school division had an 11.5 percent increase in funding under that formula for the years prior to this year, so they were coming from--

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Wolseley, on a point of order.

Ms. Friesen: On a point of order, Madam Speaker, I wonder if you could direct the minister to answer the question which dealt with transition time and advance notice about the impact of a broken commitment.

Madam Speaker: The honourable minister, on the same point of order.

Mrs. McIntosh: On the same point of order, Madam Speaker, I spent some time explaining to the member how school divisions have adequate time to place their own known figures into the formula, and that was indeed the answer that she specifically asked for.

Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Wolseley, I will take the matter under advisement to check in more detail both the question posed and the answer given.

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance. In his budget the minister has been bragging about the economic health of Manitoba and how everything is so great, and yet the unemployment data released this morning, if you take a good look at it, if you take a careful look at the data, you will see that employment growth in this province is stalling. Looking at the seasonally adjusted figures, which are there to give us annual estimates per month, show that we have got 1,300 jobs fewer in February than we had in the previous month's, January.

The question to the minister is: how can the government continue to ignore the current employment trends in Manitoba and continue to portray rapid employment growth when in actuality we are stalling?

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Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, that question and that preamble just shows how out of step the member for Brandon East is with what is happening here in our province, and he need look no further than the community that he represents. To date, year to date, 1998, there are some 1,700 more jobs in Manitoba, but I think most importantly is in 1997 Manitoba did have a very strong year, and in 1997 there were over 538,000 Manitobans employed on an average basis, the largest number in the history of our province. In 1997 our job growth was 2.4 percent, the third best in all of Canada. When you look at full-time jobs in Manitoba in 1997, there were over 14,000 new full-time jobs in Manitoba created in 1997, the best growth in full-time jobs in all of Canada. When you look at growth in private-sector jobs in 1997, over 16,000 new private-sector jobs, the second-best job growth in all of Canada. Those are the facts, those are what Manitobans know, and our economy is doing very well today.

Mr. Leonard Evans: Will the Minister of Finance take off his blue-tinted coloured glasses and take a real look at the economy and acknowledge that the labour force is declining, with 3,400 fewer people in the workforce in February compared with last February and, indeed, lower than in January? People leave the workforce; they stop seeking jobs when the job opportunities disappear. Why is the labour force indicating that it is now declining?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, the reality is our employment rate today in Manitoba is the lowest it has been since 1981, 5.8 percent, and for the last 11 months it has consistently been under 7 percent, and it is consistently either the second or third lowest in all of Canada. And what a challenge that is creating, by having one of the lowest unemployment rates and by having amongst the highest employment rates, that is actually creating a skilled shortage in various areas, like construction, like trades, like trucking. There have been articles written on that. In fact, today, if the member gets a chance to read one of our local papers, the headline is "Province looks good bank economist says," and this is a senior economist for one of the banks, one of the forecasters, and I could quote at length, but I will quote one important point for the member for Brandon East. This economist says: "The only problem with the economy growing is getting enough skilled people in place. These shortages are hard to offset in other provinces and in Manitoba it is doubly hard."

The reason it is doubly hard is because of our low unemployment rate and our excellent job growth here in this province.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Brandon East, with a final supplementary question.

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Mr. Leonard Evans: Will the minister acknowledge that low unemployment rates can occur if people leave this province and will he acknowledge that this decline in the rate of job creation is reflected in the sharp increase in outward interprovincial migration whereby we lost 5,000 people in the first nine months of last year, two and a half times greater than the previous year? Why are we having this massive increase in outward migration if there are so many jobs available in the province of Manitoba?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I will acknowledge no such thing, and our low unemployment rate is a direct result of the kinds of jobs that we are seeing created here in Manitoba, over 12,000 jobs in 1997. I have already outlined for him the growth in full-time jobs, the growth in private-sector jobs. I am certainly prepared to share all of that information with him again.

If you look at Manitoba, we currently have a situation--we have the second highest level of participation in terms of the portion of our working-age population working in our economy. Only Alberta has a higher portion. That again is an excellent indicator of the opportunities and the number of Manitobans working, and I wish the member for Brandon East would get out and talk to individuals in Manitoba and individual businesses, because he will see the real results with his own eyes by going into all kinds of businesses. I could give him a list of all the businesses that are having job growth increased activity because Manitoba's economy is performing very well today, and Manitobans know it, and Manitobans are very optimistic and positive about the future of our province and the future of job growth. The only negative people in terms of Manitoba's opportunities are those people sitting across on the other side.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of--

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): The member for Brandon East made some accusations--

Madam Speaker: Just a moment, please. The honourable minister was not recognized because I could not hear if I was even asking to recognize him. The honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism, on a point of order?

Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker, yes, and I have to apologize for my excitement as the economy of Manitoba keeps booming along. I would like the name that the member put forward from across the way so that we could assist the individual he has referred to in getting a job in the trucking industry.

Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism does not have a point of order.

Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface): My question is for the Minister of Health. Last week, when I asked a question to the minister, obviously there were some differences of opinion about how to administer the emergency room at the St. Boniface Hospital, and that is democracy. However, I think it is now time for logistics, not for politics. Could the minister indicate to this House if he is prepared to get involved personally in order to rectify this unacceptable situation at the St. Boniface Hospital?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): First of all, it is a matter of logistics, the debate that has been going on on the issue of how we structure and responsibilities. It is a matter of logistics in governments.

I am pleased to say that the signal that we have been having from the administration of the St. Boniface Hospital is one that is moving towards an increased level of co-operation with the WHA. I can tell the member that staff of the WHA, senior staff, have been working very, very closely with St. Boniface Hospital. I work very closely with them as we deal with problems in the system in transition. Part of our capital budget has included--I believe it is some one million dollars towards the capital retrofit of the emergency stage 1 getting underway shortly. Dr. Chochinov, if he was quoted correctly in many of his interviews, has indicated that Manitoba Health has been involved with the WHA in trying to resolve these issues.

Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface): Could the minister indicate to this House what measures he has taken to get the sick people out of the hospital hallways and get them to emergency rooms where they will receive the quality care that medical staff wants to deliver with the dignity and respect to those patients?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, obviously, we have talked about the long term, but the short term is of great concern as well. One of the benefits of the regionalized system--and already as it works to co-ordinate with facilities--is being able to manage on a system-wide basis so that any particular hospital which is under a particular pressure at a given time--and I think the CJOB report of yesterday demonstrated that you could have a great variation in demand on particular facilities at any given time. The ability to have proper co-operation to be able to move resources around the system or to be able to move patients to where beds are available is essential to helping to minimize difficulties in times of stress, and that work will continue.

Mr. Gaudry: Could the minister get personally involved to see that doctors and nurses at the St. Boniface Hospital emergency room get more help and better working conditions in the best interests of Manitobans?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I can tell the member that one of the first issues with which we had to deal in improving and stabilizing emergency conditions in the city of Winnipeg was negotiating an agreement with the emergency physicians of Winnipeg. I was very personally involved and hands-on in that. In fact, I even, in our process of negotiation, met with the negotiating committee of the emergency physicians. I think I spent three or four hours with them one night dealing with a number of these issues and having that discussion, so I have been very much involved in many of these issues on a very systematic basis.

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, we have raised a number of examples--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Radisson has been recognized to pose a question.

Ms. Cerilli: Madam Speaker, we have raised a number of examples where this Finance minister has had inaccuracy in his budget and has brought inaccurate information forward and withheld information. This is a definite pattern. I want to ask the minister why last May, in Estimates, he insisted that the $122-million budget for the Pan Am Games would be adequate to meet all the requirements when the chairperson of the Pan Am Games Society said that all three levels of government knew well before that that $122 million would not be adequate and that the budget would have to be more like $157 million.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): I hope I am not reading into the member's comments that she and her party do not support the Pan Am Games which will generate significant economic activity for our province, create a lot of facilities and obviously create a lot of lasting memories and opportunities for our citizens, our volunteers, our athletes and so on.

As the Pan Am Games Committee themselves have indicated, they returned to governments back in May of last year with revised proposals in terms of their budgets. We then started negotiating with the Pan Am board, with the federal government, with the City of Winnipeg, everybody involved, to try and find a solution. We ultimately were able to find a solution. It did require the province putting in some more money, it does require the federal government putting in more money, and today the budget and the financial plan of the Pan Am Games is on very solid footing, which I think is something that we all want. I certainly hope that is something that the members opposite want and support so we can move forward to have a very successful quality event that will benefit our economy and our citizens in many ways.

Ms. Cerilli: Madam Speaker, my question for the minister is: did he know last May when I asked him about revised budgets for the Pan Am Games that the $122 million was not going to be enough, as the chair of the Pan Am Games Society has said, and if so, why did he not disclose that last May in Estimates?

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Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I will get the exact dates when the Pan Am board came to us with their revised budget. As the chair and the CEO and others have been saying, it occurred in late May and June, and the reason they did not make it public at that point in time was they were very sensitive to a federal election that was taking place, and they did not want to roll it into a federal election at that particular point in time. That was a decision that they made. But in terms of it coming to us, it came to us in late May, early June, in terms of a revised proposal. We dealt with the federal government in terms of what we were prepared to do. The federal government has made an additional commitment, and we now today have a budget plan that is very solid that allows these games to move forward with the support of three levels of government, with the support of the private sector and with the support of our community. That is what is most important, and that is what we will prepare to be a part of.

Ms. Cerilli: Is the minister saying that he knowingly gave wrong information in Estimates at the committee last May, and then can he explain the contradiction between himself and Sandy Riley, the chairperson of the Pan Am Games Society? Who are we supposed to believe--the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) or the volunteer chair for the Pan Am Games?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, no, I am saying no such thing. The member for Radisson can believe both of us because what Sandy Riley, the chair of the Pan Am Games Society, is saying and what I am saying is exactly one and the same thing. There are no discrepancies, there are no differences, and that information was provided to us, as I have already outlined, late May, early June. We negotiated with all the governments and the private sector came forward with a package that was revised from the original budget of $122 million and became the revised budget subsequent to all of that.

Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): My question is for the Minister of Finance. On December 22 the minister wrote back to me concerning the proposed Flin Flon sewage treatment plant and the Channing project. In this letter the minister stated that the sewage treatment plant would proceed in phases beginning this year. Could the minister state when the first phase will begin and the estimated costs associated with each phase?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I think as the member for Flin Flon knows, this has been an ongoing issue. We have had several meetings with representatives from the community of Flin Flon. I believe he has been at least informed of those meetings and some of the outcomes of those meetings. Flin Flon recently came forward with a phased plan in terms of providing the improvements that are required. That has been analyzed and dealt with, really, by our Department of Rural Development. I did inform the community that we are prepared to move forward on this phased basis in terms of starting the first phase of the improvements to the sewer and water, and I will certainly undertake to get the specific details, in terms of the various elements of the phases and the timing, for the member for Flin Flon.

Mr. Jennissen: I thank the minister. Could the minister detail what his improved service commitment to Channing involves exactly?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, the details of the entire project are being dealt with by Rural Development. Obviously, we have approved the first phase in terms of the funding commitment for the first phase of the improvements. In terms of the various phases, the aspects, the total commitment, as I have already indicated, I will undertake to obtain that and provide as much as I can to the member for Flin Flon.

Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance as well. Between 1991 and 1996, $1.15 million was cut out of the Water Resources Branch, and in 1994 this government withdrew 43 percent of its share of the federal-provincial water monitoring services. That led to a lessened ability for us to predict the flood of the century last year. In this budget we see further cuts to the Water Resources budget. I want to ask the Finance minister: within a year of the flood of the century, why is this provincial government putting less money into water services in this province?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I am sure the member did not mean to misrepresent the ability of the Water Resources Branch to forecast this flood, but he did imply that we somehow are not going to be able to maintain our share of monitoring responsibilities. I can tell you that there has been an ongoing shared responsibility that at one time was a hundred percent funded by the federal government, and as that responsibility has changed, we have been picking up an increasing share of that.

We have been prioritizing our monitoring responsibilities so we do have the best flood forecasting capability, and we will be increasing that this year. Not only that, we are going to be increasing the ability to service a number of the severely damaged infrastructures or in some cases what needs to be upgraded infrastructures through that section of our department.

Mr. Struthers: This government is cutting more money out of our ability to predict.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Question.

Mr. Struthers: When will this government stop cutting the amount of money going into Water Resources as portrayed in this budget from $650,000 to $628,000? The facts are there.

Mr. Cummings: Madam Speaker, obviously this member's only way of managing is to compartmentalize his questions. If he has to look at the budget of Natural Resources, he will find it is up, and it is up significantly in the coming year. The Water Resources Branch, if he wants to get into the details of where we are spending each dollar, I will be quite glad to get into that with him during the Estimates. But I emphasize, we have been working with the federal government, and we said that our forecasting capability would be maintained and enhanced so that we have the ability to forecast, and that is being done.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.

For the record, I would just like to ensure that the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) did table the message of the Lieutenant Governor.