Thursday, March 26, 1998
The House met at 1:30 p.m.
MATTER OF PRIVILEGE
Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, I want to rise on a matter of privilege in regard to comments that were made by the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) in Hansard yesterday wherein he said that if I had not been inciting conflict in Cross Lake, the chief and council members of Cross Lake would have been to the table to finish negotiating the terms and conditions of the Northern Flood and ready to be implemented.
Now, Madam Speaker, on Thursday afternoon, while I was here, I received a fax from members of Cross Lake telling me, advising me what they had done. That same afternoon, I went to the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Newman). I asked him if he had a fax and he said: Yes, I have one. I asked him what he was going to do. He advised me that a letter was being written up and he was going to send it to the members of Cross Lake. That was Thursday afternoon.
Friday I was in The Pas, I believe it was four in the afternoon. I received a call from the Minister of Northern Affairs asking me if I would be willing to accompany him to Cross Lake, if he were willing to go. I said yes, I would be willing. Then towards the end of our conversation, he said: But you have to be invited by the chief in order for you to go. At that point, I became confused as to what he was driving at. In any event, I promised that I would do whatever I can to resolve the situation. If he needed me, I would be willing to go.
As a matter of fact, he went so far as to say: Do we have a deal then? I said: What deal? Well, that you are going to come with me to Cross Lake. He said: I will make arrangements for us to be paired for Monday. I said yes, fine. That was the conversation I had with the Minister of Northern Affairs.
Now, if I had been to Cross Lake organizing a blockade, as the First Minister is saying, would I have been talking to the Minister of Northern Affairs, offering my services, offering my advice and guidance wherever he might need me? [interjection] Yes, with a smirk on your face, because that is the kind of attitude you have had right from day one. This morning, the First Minister was interviewed by his buddy Peter Warren at CJOB. I listen to them every now and then when they meet with each other, and the Premier apparently said on radio that I had gone up to Cross Lake to organize the blockade.
Madam Speaker, I find those comments to be offensive. I find those comments to be demeaning. I find those comments to mean that I, as a representative of the riding of The Pas, cannot go to my constituents when they invite me to talk about issues that affect them directly. Also, when I refer to aboriginal people and the problems that they face, I always say--and I have said it in this House before--I as an aboriginal person have a vested interest that my people are being treated right, that we are being treated right. When the woman and a child were shot by the RCMP in Alberta, it affected me. It affected me greatly. As one of my friends said to me, if you prick my people, would I hurt?
So when things like this go on, whether it is in Cross Lake, The Pas, Norway House or Alberta or Garden Hill, it affects me because I am an aboriginal person, and I have said that over and over again in this Chamber. Whatever happens to my people, it affects me; it affects my daughter; it affects my family and my community.
So for the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to say that I had gone up to Cross Lake to organize a blockade, Madam Speaker, he is wrong. He is totally wrong.
So, therefore, I move, seconded by the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson), that the Premier apologize to this House for comments he made in Question Period yesterday in regard to myself on the blockade at Cross Lake.
Motion presented.
Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader, on the matter of privilege.
Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Thank you, Madam Speaker. As I understand the rules, there are two matters to be decided at this point: first, whether the honourable member for The Pas has raised his question of privilege in a timely fashion. I do not propose to argue on that matter as this will have been the first opportunity the honourable member would have had to comment on the printed Hansard.
On the second matter, that being whether the honourable member has a prima facie case of privilege in order to raise the matter, his argument falls very far short of what is required, Madam Speaker, in my opinion.
The honourable member, for whatever reason, failed to quote from Hansard the words of the First Minister about which he is concerned. I believe the words he is referring to are found on page 1066 of Hansard for yesterday, which I will read into the record as follows, quoting the First Minister: "This government has operated in good faith, has negotiated to try and arrive at fair and reasonable settlements, and I might say four of the five First Nations involved in the Northern Flood Agreement have resolved their issues and have settled with hundreds of millions of dollars being flowed to those First Nations. I think that is a record of which we can be very, very proud. I say to the member opposite, rather than stir up discontent and conflict, he ought to get involved in attempting to ensure that the people of Cross Lake come to the table to complete the negotiations for the benefit of all of the people of Cross Lake."
Those are the words, I believe, the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) finds so offensive, and he uses other words to describe those words. But what is really happening is--as a matter of fact, what we have here is a difference of opinion on the construction of these words by two honourable members, one being the First Minister and one being the honourable member for The Pas. But as an observer and not one who was part of that discussion between the two, it appears to me the honourable member for The Pas is being extremely defensive about his own rhetoric and his own behaviour with respect to the matter about which we are talking, sensitive about his own position and his own actions, and this is what gives rise to his question of privilege today, or it may also be a wish to carry on with the kind of behaviour on his part which has been to bring about some disorder in that part of Manitoba.
So in my opinion, Madam Speaker, the honourable member for The Pas has been caught. He has been caught by his own rhetoric and his own behaviour and now wants to blame the First Minister for his own problems. The First Minister's words are, in no way, a breach of anybody's privilege either inside this House or words uttered outside the House, which I suggest--[interjection]
* (1340)
Madam Speaker: Order, please. A matter of privilege is a very serious matter.
An Honourable Member: Well, kick the Premier out.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. Could we all afford each other a little common courtesy? The honourable member for--[interjection] I interrupted previously when the honourable member for The Pas was having exchanges across the floor when he was speaking.
The honourable government House leader, to complete his remarks.
Mr. McCrae: As I was saying, Madam Speaker, the point raised by the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin), by no stretch of the imagination amounts to anything resembling or close to a question of privilege, and on this occasion--especially when we are dealing with such a serious matter as a question of privilege--the honourable member ought to have thought twice before raising this matter as a question of privilege.
Indeed, the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) himself, on the day previous to yesterday, day before yesterday on March 24, used these words in this House: "The blockade that we have set up in Cross Lake currently." Those are the words of the honourable member for The Pas. He has been caught by his own activity and by his own rhetoric in this House. He has no question of privilege, and honourable members ought not to abuse the rules of the House in this way.
Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, on the same point of privilege.
Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, I think it is important to recognize that the member has raised this at the first opportunity. It refers to comments made yesterday. We have received the Hansard. It certainly meets that aspect of a matter of privilege, and I would also suggest that this is particularly germane to the elements of privilege that are established through many centuries of tradition which enable members of the Legislature, members of any parliament, to come before the House and represent their constituents.
You know, Madam Speaker, the comments made by the Premier (Mr. Filmon), I would say, are not atypical of comments that we hear from the Premier. Unfortunately, I might add, they are not atypical of comments we have heard from this Premier regarding the member for The Pas in the past. I find it ironic that the member was censured for using the term "racist" in terms of policies, but I have sat here and heard this member, the Premier, accuse the member for The Pas of being racist.
You know, where have we come to in this province when we have the Premier and the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Newman) doing such things as the Minister of Northern Affairs, in his letter to the people of Cross Lake, saying I expect you to lead, being guided by the honour and value system of your people. Where is the trust, honesty, respect, courage, integrity and wisdom in what you are condoning supported with these actions?
The days of the great white father belong in the 1890s, not the 1990s. That minister and this Premier are showing a paternalistic and condescending attitude to aboriginal people in this province. That is unacceptable. Perhaps this Premier cannot understand that in 1998 the people of Cross Lake make their own decisions independently, and he should understand that and respect that, Madam Speaker, and not try and find others, point fingers at others. I say as someone who has been proud to represent many aboriginal people in my constituency that I think the attitude shown by this Premier (Mr. Filmon) and this Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Newman), with their condescending attitude, is at the root of many of the problems we face, the frustration aboriginal people face in this province.
I want to suggest that they have given away exactly what they think. I find it interesting that the Premier talked about the negotiations in four other flood communities and how the negotiations took place in terms of good faith. We now see that so long as there was an agreement, they consider it to be good faith, but when the people of Cross Lake say that they do not agree, that somehow is something that is not acceptable, and this Premier and this Minister of Northern Affairs then have a greater say.
Madam Speaker, negotiations are a multipart process. It involves people coming to the table with differing views, and fundamentally it must start with respect of those views. I say to the Premier and to the Minister of Northern Affairs, if you wish a resolution of this situation at Cross Lake, the way to start is by respecting the people of Cross Lake, something you have shown you are fundamentally incapable of doing. I say that if the government is looking for some of the root causes at what is going on in Cross Lake, they might want to look at what has been happening in that community. It is a community that I know well. It is a community I have managed to have the opportunity to visit many times. I have talked in Cross Lake. I remember-- and I was in Cross Lake--there were I believe five young people committed suicide in the space of six months. It is the legacy of the kind of poverty that we see in that community, the desperation that we see and we have seen in other communities. I know the frustration of talking to the elders and what happened in that process.
What is happening in Cross Lake is obviously a decision that that community has taken. No one should doubt that. Whether it is the right or the wrong thing is none of the business of the Premier or the Minister of Northern Affairs. It is fundamentally, first of all, the business of the people of Cross Lake. I ask the Premier to consider the following, what level of frustration there is in Cross Lake. I do not know when the last time he was in Cross Lake. Unfortunately, the Premier's travel schedule usually manages to include Switzerland before it includes northern Manitoba. I say that if he did take the time to talk to the people of Cross Lake, they would talk about such issues as the bridge, the arbitration, the fact that we have had rulings saying that we should receive, the people of Cross Lake are entitled to decent road access and bridge access. The bottom line, it is because of much of the frustration of a government that does not even take the time to go and visit the people of Cross Lake. I would urge you to consider this as being a prima facie case of privilege.
The member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) has repeatedly, and I say the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) as well, have repeatedly had to face kinds of attacks on their individual characters that many of us in this Chamber do not have to face. I say if there is one thing we wish to see in this Legislature is that it reflects all Manitobans, and it is time that aboriginal Manitobans can come in this Legislature and not face the kinds of attacks from this Premier, the cheap personal attacks from this Premier. They are entitled to speak out on behalf of aboriginal people just as any member of this Legislature is on behalf of their constituents.
I conclude, Madam Speaker, by suggesting that the appropriate thing for the minister to do, for once, instead of taking these cheap, personal shots, would be be a statesperson, to put down the rhetoric of confrontation that he is stirring up, nobody else, that he has got his Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Newman) writing letters on. I say to the minister let us follow up what the original suggestion was. Let us meet, let us sit down, let us talk, let us withdraw the rhetoric, and fundamentally, let us start understanding that we have to respect the rights of aboriginal people in this Legislature, not attack their personal integrity.
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Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I am sure, Madam Speaker, you will have noted that the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) did nothing but engage in very, very aggressive, loud condemnation of members opposite but did not address the substance of the presumed attempted matter of privilege because there is no matter of privilege. In fact, the member opposite, in attempting to allege that something I said was a matter of privilege, did not even quote any of what I said. The only accurate quote of what I said that was put on the record was put on by the government House leader, and it was not even close to anything that I am alleged to have said by the member opposite because I did not say what he alleges.
The member for Thompson, (Mr. Ashton), of course, is embarrassed at having to defend that, and so he resorts, as he always does, into simple, low, personal attacks. I will tell you, if he wants to talk about people who are being personally slandered or personally attacked every day in this House, all he has to do is look in the mirror, as each one of his members does. Even just a matter of minutes ago, the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) shouted "redneck" across here and does not have the courage to withdraw that kind of statement. That is what we have to put up with day after day after day from this crew opposite, and that is why they are where they are because they do not have, nor do they deserve, the respect of the people of this province.
I will say that the reason that they attempt to have this kind of flimsy political issue as the basis of their attempting to get support for their position is because they are embarrassed at two decades of inaction by New Democrats in this province when they had a chance to do something for the people of the North, and particularly for our aboriginal brothers and sisters in the North.
I say to you all you have to do is look at their being in office for some 15 years and during that period of time not making any resolution of the treaty land entitlements in this province. Since we have been in office, Madam Speaker, we have resolved the treaty land entitlement for almost 30 First Nations in this province.
While they were in office, they did absolutely zero, zero towards the north central hydro system to provide hydro electricity, finally, to nine First Nations communities in that part of the province, that inaccessible part of the province. They were getting, finally, finally, the opportunity to live to a standard that others in the province are able to live because they had electricity provided for them, not only at a cost savings, but at a dramatic increase in their quality of living. This government did that for them, and they are embarrassed about it.
Finally, of course, there were the negotiations on the Northern Flood Agreement, negotiations that got absolutely nowhere under the New Democrats. I have spoken to many First Nations people in the North over the years when they were in office, and they said that they knew, despite the fact that they were represented by New Democrats, that they would never get a settlement out of New Democrats. They were just being given lip service all the time by New Democrats who represented them, and they got nowhere, absolutely nowhere towards the settlement of those northern flood agreements.
Because we treated those people in those First Nations with respect, because we acted in good faith at all times, four of the five First Nations were able to arrive at a settlement, at a comprehensive settlement. Even Cross Lake, under its former leadership and administration, arrived at an agreement in principle because we were determined to resolve all of the issues that were outstanding irritants left to us by the New Democrats between the aboriginal people and the rest of society. We did that by making a commitment in good faith and a commitment that was not delivered in any way by the New Democrats despite all of their rhetoric, and now they are embarrassed, and so all they can do is lash out in this phoney way to try and get away from the substance of the fact that we have been delivering all of the things that they could not or would not to the aboriginal people of the North.
Madam Speaker, I say to the member for The Pas that I agree with him completely when he says that when things are happening to his people, to his aboriginal brothers and sisters, that appear to be negative towards them, it hurts him. I agree, and that is precisely the point that I am making is that by not supporting their going to the table to complete this agreement, he is hurting them in the long term. He is denying them a hundred million dollars or more of compensation, and in supporting the blockade he has denied several communities the ability to have electricity for a full year. I think that hurts all of us, and that is the kind of thing that we have to be aware of. It is not rhetoric, it is not politics; it is helping the people of the North, and that is exactly what we are attempting to do by all of the things that we have been doing.
So I say the member has no point of privilege and did not even read the exact words that I said because they would not support his point of privilege. There is none, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: A matter of privilege is a serious matter. I am therefore going to take this matter under advisement to consult with the authorities, and I will return to the House with a ruling.