4th-36th Vol. 39-Oral Questions

Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us this afternoon Mr. Luis Hernandez, Consul General of Peru for Ontario and Manitoba.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): In 1996, we repeatedly asked the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to table information dealing with the analysis of the Manitoba Telephone System's sale and the information on the analysis on a public asset.

Madam Speaker, just recently the CRTC indicated in writing that the government sold the telephone system for a discount rate. The Premier went on to say that we got this advice from the best people in the brokerage firms that we could.

I would like the Premier to explain why, in testimony before the CRTC, Wood Gundy was quoted as saying: at the time of the sale of the telephone system, relative to other Canadian telcos, the stock appears to be undervalued. Can the Premier explain why they sold it at a discount or undervalued rate, and could he table any analysis to show that the public of Manitoba was protected in this broken election promise?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, we are certainly satisfied with the price that we received for Manitoba Telephone System. An analysis was done by three independent brokerage firms, the same firms, by the way, that have represented Manitoba over the last many decades. The member for Concordia earlier referred to a project, Limestone, that was financed, as he referred to, through U.S. investments and so on. The brokerage firms that led those issues were the same firms that did the analysis on behalf of government, so they have a long-standing record of serving the Province of Manitoba and the people of Manitoba.

That analysis showed very clearly a benefit in terms of the sale, a benefit above the book value of the assets, and in terms of the comparison of other assets, other telephone companies across Canada, the selling price was a very fair one, and we certainly were satisfied with the proceeds that we received on behalf of the taxpayers of Manitoba. Again, the price was fair in terms of the value of the assets and the book value of the assets.

Mr. Doer: Who is the public to believe, the minister who was in charge of this broken election promise, along with the former minister of the telecom company and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and Mr. Stefanson, or the Manitoba Telephone System whose green sheet, which was produced in evidence, a confidential memo, says: the price earnings ratio and the price-to-book value were both below the average for other telcos in Canada, and the yield exceeded the average, the dividend yield exceeded the average?

A statement that totally contradicts what the minister just said to this Legislature. Who are we to believe, the confidential green memo or the minister here today who said we got the value of other telcos in Canada, when the opposite is true?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, when the companies that do the analysis look at the value of a company, they look at various aspects, they look at price-to-book value, they look at issues like price to earnings and all of those kinds of comparisons. As I indicated earlier, the value of MTS compared well to many other comparable telcos in Canada. So, in terms of the value of the company, we were certainly satisfied with the value that was put on the assets of the company. That is quite different from when a share is launched and a share is put out into a market. It is not uncommon for shares to have a discount to them when they are selling to the public and through the market. That is a different issue and a different reference made by people who appeared before the CRTC than the comparisons done by the brokers relative to price to book, price to earnings, dividend yields and all of those kinds of analyses. Those were done by the brokerage firms, and certainly the ultimate price for Manitoba Telephone System fared well in terms of that kind of comparison.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, it did not fare well for the employees that have been laid off; it has not fared well for the consumers who have had their prices increased; it has not fared well for the capital investment in the telephone system which was reduced by some 50 percent. Perhaps it fared well for the shareholders; perhaps it boded well for the chief executives and members of the board, some of them who have become millionaires through this, but it has not fared well for average Manitobans who were not told the truth in the election campaign.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I would like to ask the Premier: will he agree to table the information that they had, because the green sheet just absolutely contradicts what the Minister of Finance said in this House today that this earning ratio and price-to-book values and dividend yields were both below the national average for other telcos and the yield was expected to be higher?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I am happy to confirm, as I did during my Estimates, that we are prepared to table that information for the member.

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Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): It took us a few weeks to put together one part of the jigsaw puzzle, that is the sale of MTS and what it has resulted in in terms of key people at MTS, particularly Tom Stefanson and the stock options. We are now seeing the other part of the puzzle which confirms that pretty well every major broker indicated that this stock was undervalued, whether it be Wood Gundy, who was mentioned earlier; Edward Jones, the stock is undervalued; Levesque Beaubien, an outright bargain; Nesbitt Burns, that stock is expected to settle at a level above its issue price.

Will the minister for MTS now confirm that one of the main reasons key people such as Tom Stefanson are going to be making up to a million dollars is because of the fact that they are able to get in at that cheap price, a floor price of just barely over $14, stocks which today are selling at $21 on the open market?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the member opposite obviously does not understand investment or the stock market, because six months after the stock was issued, it still was just running around less than 10 percent above its issue price. That was a reflection of the fact that markets go up and markets go down. Since that period of time, since the spring of last year, every single telco in Canada has gone up substantially, and in fact MTS has not gone up more than most of them. So what is happening is a reflection of investors driving up the market prices for all telcos, not for MTS in particular.

Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, I am wondering if the Premier now, who wishes to put himself forward as an expert on the stock market, can confirm that every major broker indicated prior to the sale that MTS was undervalued, and one of the main reasons that Tom Stefanson and other key people from MTS are going to be able to pocket upwards of a million dollars is because they are guaranteed a price of $14.63. The current selling price is $21. They knew right from the start that MTS was undervalued, and they are getting a sweetheart deal that is going to benefit them all the way to the bank.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I think it is important to go back to the CRTC ruling and clarify some of the issues that have been raised by members opposite talking about this issue of a premium for these shares. I will quote from submissions that were made that they have quoted from before from the Canadian association of consumers, I believe, and the Manitoba Society of Seniors and others that appeared before the commission. It is in the report from CRTC, and it goes on to say: while the new shareholders of MTS paid a premium for their shares over net book value.

Further on in the same report by CRTC, again, they go on to say: accordingly, the commission cannot justify a shareholder entitlement for MTS based on any portion of the premium that shareholders paid over book value.

So, again, the rulings from CRTC are perfectly clear that there was a premium paid over the book value of the assets of MTS. As I said to the Leader of the Opposition earlier, that does compare to other telco prices across Canada. So, again, from our perspective, the price was fair for the assets; we were certainly satisfied with the price we received for the assets of MTS, Madam Speaker.

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Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, as a final supplementary: will the minister responsible for MTS, who after several weeks still does not get the real bottom-line issue here that Tom Stefanson, his brother, is going to pocket, because of the deliberate undervaluation of the shares, which everyone including all major stockbrokers indicated--will he now take direct action to stop this rip-off of Manitobans, whether they be the people that owned the company before or the people who pay the phone rates, because they are now basically paying for Tom Stefanson and others getting a windfall profit at their expense?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, we have already indicated that we had professional assistance in terms of the valuation of the company. We have also read comments from CRTC in terms of the valuation of the company and the fact that a premium was paid over book value, which does compare to other telcos in Canada. What the member for Thompson fails to recognize--and I am not surprised by it--he has no understanding of how the markets work or how the evaluation of shares works. If he were to look at telephone companies right across Canada today, he would see that many of them are performing very well on the stock market for a whole range of issues. But, in terms of the valuation of MTS, we certainly were satisfied with the price we received based on the best information that was provided to us by firms that have provided advice to this province over the last several decades when members like the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) were a part of government receiving advice from those very same brokerage firms in terms of issues affecting the finances of Manitoba.

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Government Services. In what may be the biggest megaproject in 10 years in this province, this government is replacing the 7,000 desktop computers that are made in Mexico, assembled in southern United States, shipped to Manitoba from a Toronto warehouse, and all Manitoba suppliers have been cut out of the process, costing Manitobans over 100 jobs. Would the minister explain and confirm this information?

Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, you know, as members probably all well know, certainly within the realms of government, with the multitude of departments that we have and the staff working, the ability to be able to communicate electronically is certainly identified as a need. I do not think anybody would question the fact that we should be able to go with more electronic data transfer within government. Very simply, the ability to do this was paramount, and we did not have the ability ourselves to be able to handle this transfer over to the electronic data transfer medium, so therefore we asked for an RFP for this service, and at the present time we have Systemhouse that is putting this into place for us.

Mr. Maloway: Madam Speaker, can the minister confirm that the original tender required companies to quote prices with delivery to Toronto, placing companies at a competitive disadvantage, indicating an outright bias against Manitoba companies?

Mr. Pitura: No, Madam Speaker, I will not accept what the member has just indicated. The proposal went out to companies to provide this service for the provincial government, and as a result of the request for proposal and taking a look at it through the regular process that government does with all requests of this nature, it was then decided that this contract would be placed with Systemhouse as they were the qualifying bidder.

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Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my final supplementary to the same minister is this: would the minister tell the House what this project will cost Manitoba taxpayers, and would he release a copy of the contract between SHL and the government?

Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): The member asks what the cost will be of converting over to the system. I am advised that--because of the fact that as the transition is taking place, and it is taking place as we speak--in terms of estimated numbers, we are talking about an incremental cost somewhere in the neighbourhood of around $15 million.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, to the Minister of Justice. The minister, who said he has been doing his utmost about the revolving door of bail and who has only to this point damned Ottawa, today made public a memo saying that he has not been doing his utmost. It says to the prosecutors: apply the law. It is a written confession.

My question to the minister is: rather than repeating a public relations exercise that did not work the last time because no additional tools had been given to prosecutors, when will the government start to deal with the threat of violent gang crimes and the causes of this cancer in our communities in a real way?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, again the member for St. Johns is criticizing a very important initiative that was undertaken by the Crown attorneys, and I want to thank them publicly for the job that they did in reviewing a new aspect of the Bail Reform Act which has only been in force for approximately one year. There have been a lot of concerns about that particular provision, and over the last year the matter has been clarified. The Crown attorney who wrote the particular memorandum to the other Crown attorneys indicated that this particular provision could be used in order to address a very specific need where the administration of justice may be in disrepute if someone were released on bail. So I want to thank that particular Crown attorney, and I also want to thank the police officers who contributed to that discussion with the Crown attorneys.

Mr. Mackintosh: Rather than business as usual, as we understand from the courts, and talking about slowing the revolving door of bail, will the minister do something to stop it by giving more than lip service to the report of the Honourable Ted Hughes that says we need marketable skills and job prospects for those marginalized Manitobans to stop people from getting involved in gangs in the first place?

Mr. Toews: Well, Madam Speaker, I know that our government is committed to approaching this issue under a variety of headings. We believe very strongly in the issue of suppression. We believe very strongly in the tool of prevention, and we believe very strongly in the tool of partnership. All three of those aspects are a very important part of our overall criminal justice system.

Now under the heading of partnerships, we also partner with the business community to ensure that people who do not have marketable skills find places to work. I know that one of the recent announcements with respect to the call centre that is being put downtown is one such example where people who may not have marketable skills for every type of a job at least find an opening to get into that job market so that they can become positive contributing members of society. I believe that they want to do that, and I believe that our government, and I know our government is committed to providing them with those opportunities.

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, if the government is truly committed to prevention, why did it cut all funding to the friendship centres in Manitoba? Why did the minister close down the Night Hoops basketball program in the north end? Why did it turn its back on the closing of the north Y? Why has it cut Access and BUNTEP? Why has it cut funding to foster parents, Madam Speaker?

Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, I totally reject the kinds of comments that the member for St. Johns has been making. In fact, the British Columbia NDP government has sent its officials here to look at our youth sports camp to see why they are working as well as they are doing.

In respect of the issue of prevention, one of the things that I want to say is how supportive this government has been of police. Back in 1985-86, the provincial government only contributed 60 percent, a sizeable contribution, and yet, that in fact amounted to $26 million. Today, Madam Speaker, for the '98-99 budget, the provincial contribution is $52 million and that represents an increase of 8.5 percent over last year. That is one aspect of where we are supportive of prevention issues.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is also for the Minister of Justice.

Today I spent part of the day over at the Provincial Court Building, and it was in essence to share with some individuals a press release that the Minister of Justice issued today. I think that the Minister of Justice is hitting a part of the problem. The feedback that I was receiving, overwhelming feedback, is that it is time--and we have to respect the need for an independent judicial system--but the time has been too long in the sense of government not fulfilling some sort of public requirement in terms of a judicial review.

My specific question to the Minister of Justice is: is this government prepared to have an independent review of our courts, in particular, our judges?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I think the member raises an excellent issue, because I know I had occasion to talk to his father who spends a lot of time reviewing the court system. I had a very interesting talk with him. In fact, he brought a lot of good points to my attention. So I guess, like father like son, he is raising these in the Legislature in a very timely manner, and I thank him for that.

I note that the Alberta government has instituted a review of the judicial appointment process and the whole concept of judicial independence, and I think it is a timely inquiry in Alberta. I am looking forward to seeing the results of that particular inquiry. I think much of what they will learn there can be considered here. So I am looking forward to the results of that particular inquiry.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, will the minister acknowledge, with respect to the individuals that I have talked to, there is a great need for us to have that independent review? It does not have to be professionals per se, but we do need to review the issue of our judges. Will the minister make that commitment to do that?

Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, what I can commit to today is that we will continue to review all aspects of the justice system, whether it is issues of bail, whether it is issues of other policy initiatives that need to be undertaken, issues like urban sports camps, and, yes, the issues of the judiciary. We will continue to monitor that entire situation to see what needs to be improved.

Now, specifically with the judiciary, I want to say that, generally speaking, our judiciary here in Manitoba is comprised of very, very fine individuals; however, I know that from time to time there are issues that arise, and my staff continues to monitor that. Should there be a specific need for any type of a public inquiry into any aspect, my staff will review that and make recommendations to me as well.

Mr. Lamoureux: Can the minister then indicate to the House when the government sees itself in a position in which we can strike an independent review? Because, when we see the press release that went out today, it is a step forward, but you are really missing the most important point, and that is this particular independent review. When can we actually see a very positive step towards that?

Mr. Toews: In view of the Supreme Court of Canada's decision in respect of the payment of provincial judges, they made very clear statements and very broad statements about what judicial independence means.

What we need to do is to see how the application of that particular judgment goes over the next period of time. So I think at this time it is premature to look at any kind of inquiry. I know that my colleague the Minister of Justice in Alberta has other very pressing issues that prompted him to proceed with an inquiry as to the appointments' process. That again is something that I know our province was a leader in and also issues such as whether judges should be appointed for life or simply for terms. That is one of the issues that my colleague in Alberta has been concerned about and indeed has communicated with me. I look forward to seeing the results of that inquiry.

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Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, last night Justice Estey held public meetings on the grain transportation and handling system. Although there was a very small group of people there, they expressed very well their concerns about the transportation system. One of the major concerns was the problem of operation of short-line railways, and given that the primary objective of the branch line abandonment provision of the Canada Transportation Act was to promote short-line railways rather than to discontinue services, in reality this is not working because railway companies are retaining control of key sections of the railway lines that make it difficult for short lines to operate.

I would like to ask the Minister of Transportation if he has made contact with the federal Minister of Transportation on this issue. If he has not, will he contact them to ensure that the problem with the Canada Transportation Act is corrected so that short-line railways can operate in this province?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Last week the four western provinces met with Judge Estey and talked about all the issues around the grain transportation review, and clearly Mr. Estey has found out that this issue is a lot more complex than he might have first thought. I think he has a good handle on all the issues from all directions and will probably be challenged to come up with the appropriate recommendations by the end of December. That is a pretty short time frame.

With regard to short lines, certainly the Province of Manitoba strongly advocates the use of short lines to bring grain to the main lines. We have certainly passed an act to facilitate that process, and we continue to work with, as the member had mentioned, the federal minister and the railways to try to identify the opportunities that exist for short lines. Clearly the Hudson's Bay route was certainly the best short line that we have been advocating that has happened in Manitoba and parts of Saskatchewan, bought by OmniTRAX, and will function as a very effective line in Manitoba for movement of goods to and from the Churchill port.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): The other issue that was raised, Madam Speaker, was the opportunity to save farmers' money by using the Port of Churchill. I would like to ask the minister why, in his presentation that he made to Judge Estey, he did not even offer Churchill as an alternate route to offer some competition to the mainline railways so that farmers could save money and get their grain to port cheaper. Why did you not make that offer in your presentation?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): All ports have been discussed in the process. The joint submission has covered all the ports, and clearly advocates of Churchill bring forth the cost-effectiveness of it and nobody disputes that. So it has been recognized and presented, and I clearly indicate that Churchill will play a much greater role in grain movement in the future than it ever has in the past, because now we have strong advocates operating the port and the line as opposed to what was the case in the past.

Is the minister saying the line abandonment we have seen in this province is just tinkering, and he wants to see more line abandonment in this province? What kind of tinkering are you proposing?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, I am not sure what direction the member is trying to go, but the statement means the grain review as a whole. We think that there are a number of issues in grain transportation as a whole that must be addressed, not just tinkering on this little issue and that little issue. We want, as four provinces, competition; we want accountability; we want increased efficiency; and we want more dollars back at the farm gate. That is what we mean by comprehensive review, not just tinkering. Everybody, every province, is on side with greater accountability, greater efficiency and more money for producers at the end of the day. That is what we mean by comprehensive.

Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Yesterday we raised some issues raised by the study that the government itself raised concerning students at risk. This was an independent study which brought together 18 focus groups as well as three of her own staff, three groups from her own ministry.

Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the minister, relating to this study: how can the minister ignore the clear loss of confidence by educators when all of the groups, including her own staff, agreed that Manitoba Education and Training should try and repair the breakdown in communication and trust and listen to the field? Is this not a clear vote of nonconfidence in this minister and her policies?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): I thank the member for the question because it does give me an opportunity to clarify for the House here and for others who may be listening what this study was about, what we hoped to gain from it and what we are doing with it. The member speaks about this as if it is something like the Roblin commission, when in fact it was simply part of the ongoing consultation that the Department of Education does on a regular basis with the field. In this case they are talking to eighteen 10-member groups of people who are working in the schools, getting their perspectives.

They came back with a whole series of the thoughts and ideas and feelings, some of them contradictory, some of them not contradictory, all of them worthy of examination. They came back with essentially seven thoughts of things they would like us to do, all of which we are in the process of doing. For example, they indicated that they needed an integrated community and service agency approach, which we have put in place. They talk about needing to get into early childhood development to help schools, which we are doing. We have many examples of what we are doing there, and I will continue with the next question.

Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, how can the minister explain the fact that the groups have identified that there is widespread belief across the whole province, including her own staff, including teachers, principals, administrators, superintendents and the public--that there is widespread belief that the provincial public policy and best interests of students at risk are moving in opposite directions?

Mrs. McIntosh: Of course, the member is not correct in her preamble because she again is talking as if this is widespread consultation with the public, à la the Roblin commission, et cetera. This was approximately 180 people working in the field; the workers in the field asked for their perceptions. It is not the broader public, or they are not formal consultations, and they are very direct in how they feel. Some of the results are contradictory as I say. Some are asking for solutions that were in place in other provinces, saying why reinvent the wheel. Others are asking for made-in-Manitoba solutions, directly contradicting each other.

Similarly, you will see coming through the particular concerns of the workers, which I am not saying are in contradiction to the needs of the students or the wider public, but they are the workers' concerns, and we are interested in them. But their concern with exam results, for example, was no one wanted the publication of exam results because they feared that teachers might be blamed. Of course, that is not the purpose; it is not the perspective that others might take on those issues. So she is leaving a direct--[interjection] I will conclude later.

Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, my final question today is to the minister concerning this report. This is clearly a massive condemnation of the minister and her policies from all educational sectors. Would she admit now that her priorities are her political agenda and not the needs of students, which is clear in her role for the past three years?

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Mrs. McIntosh: As I say, the department consults regularly with workers in the field, with parents, with others. This is with workers, and they have given seven recommendations, all of which we are either in the process of doing or have done. So, in the final analysis, despite the differing opinions that were held in the report, the conclusions they came to fall in line with a lot of what we are doing. This report confirms exactly what we have been saying all along about the system, that there are students at risk who require interventions to take them out of the at-risk category, and it is unfortunate that when they were in power, they discouraged this kind of consultation with workers in the field. We encourage it. We want to hear what kinds of problems are perceived by workers so that if there is merit in them, we can begin to address them.

As I say, of the seven recommendations brought forward, each and every one of them falls in line with what we think we can do to help students at risk.

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Housing or perhaps the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson).

The government desperately tries to portray the Manitoba economy as being buoyant and expanding, and yet data that we have on urban housing starts--the residential construction industry--now available show a decline, a very sharp decline, of over 23 percent in the first quarter of this year, whereas while we are declining, the province of Alberta is expanding by 22.1 percent, and our cousin province, our sister province of Saskatchewan, has grown by 34.4 percent. We rank, Madam Speaker, only seven out of 10 provinces.

So my question to the minister: if our economy is supposed to be in such great shape in this province, why is the demand for new housing declining and compares very, very poorly with the rest of Canada?

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Madam Speaker, the one thing that I have always enjoyed, being in this House, is when the minister--pardon me, the member for Brandon--[interjection] Former minister, yes. I believe he was a former cabinet minister so he realizes the importance of accurate figures and accurate interpretation of statistics. I am always amazed at how the member for Brandon East can sometimes come up with these.

An analysis of the housing starts across Canada and from province to province is done at snapshot intervals. The member must realize that taking out of context a particular time in the analysis of the figures sometimes can put a difference in balance between the various regions and the various cities. If you look at the overall economy and the overall stats, there are some times where there is a levelling off or an improvement in the statistics.

So, Madam Speaker, I would wait until there is a more finalized figure on the housing starts from various areas of Manitoba and Canada before we make an assumption like that.

Mr. Leonard Evans: Madam Speaker, the figures come out every month, month after month, year after year.

Will this minister acknowledge that our seriously declining real wages in this province, together with a very serious loss of population to other provinces, including Saskatchewan, Alberta and B.C., are contributing factors to this abysmally low level of urban housing starts in the province of Manitoba?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, we will accept no such thing. Again, I think the member for Brandon East, as he does on occasion, is being quite selective with his statistics.

I encourage him to look at the whole issue of housing starts over the last short period of time, because if he looks back at 1997, the growth in urban starts here in Manitoba was 33.9 percent, the second highest in all of Canada and well ahead of Canada's growth rate of 21 percent. Those are the facts for the year 1997.

To date, we have three months' data, and the member is right that for the first three months' data there is a decline. But what I point out to him and I encourage him to watch for is that the current CMHC forecast is projecting a third consecutive year of strong gains for Manitoba. They are projecting a gain of 11 percent which, if that is accurate, will be the second-best performance in all of Canada. That is the projection coming from CMHC, not from myself.

So 1997 was an excellent year. If you look over the last few years--in fact, out of four of the last six years, this province has exceeded the national growth rate here in Manitoba in terms of housing starts.

Mr. Leonard Evans: Madam Speaker, will this minister acknowledge--or the Minister of Housing (Mr. Reimer)--that the housing starts today--and he has quoted a number of figures--are indeed a very small fraction of what they used to be under the previous government in the 1980s? It is only a tiny fraction. Will he admit that today we only have about a fifth or so of what we were experiencing before this government came into office?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I have just given the member for Brandon East the facts in terms of how Manitoba is comparing on a national basis in terms of housing starts: four out of the last six years we are exceeding Canada; last year's growth rate, the second best in all of Canada, exceeding the Canadian average; the projection for 1998, again, to be the second best in Canada, exceeding the national average.

I encourage the member for Brandon East--because I know he takes an interest in economic statistics--to look at all of the economic indicators. Manitoba, in March of this year, at 5.2 percent, the lowest unemployment rate in all of Canada right here in this province, a record number of Manitobans working here in our province, amongst the best growth in export sales, amongst the best growth in manufacturing shipments.

I could go on and on, Madam Speaker, but everybody in Manitoba, including the people of Charleswood, knows that Manitoba's economy is performing very well today. The only person who does not recognize that is the member for Brandon East. I am certainly prepared to give him the data and a lesson.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.