Hon. David Newman (Deputy Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.
Motion agreed to.
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Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, we had an agreement for today that we would sit till six o'clock in Estimates. I am just wondering if that was approved formally in the House, and if it has not, I would suggest we do that currently which would be to waive private members' hour and continue sitting in Estimates till six o'clock, if there is agreement.
Madam Speaker: Yes, unanimous consent was received last Wednesday, I believe, in the House to waive private members' hour and sit consecutively through till six o'clock this evening.
CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION
Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Civil Service Commission.
When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 17.1.(c) Human Resource Management Services (1) Salary and Employee Benefits on page 22.
Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Yes, we were talking about the Management Internship Program, and I have some other questions for the minister regarding that program. The minister said that they actively recruit at the universities. My understanding is that there is actually a seminar or has been a seminar or a presentation made to the potential applicants or to people who might be interested at the universities prior to sending in or actually making an application. Is that accurate?
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister charged with the administration of The Civil Service Act): That is correct.
Ms. Barrett: I actually spoke with someone sort of serendipitously over the weekend who had gone through this process--I cannot remember whether it was the first year or the second year; I guess this is the third year, so it would have to have been the first or the second year--who at that seminar someone asked the question--I do not think it was this person--about the references that had to accompany the application. They had asked if the references could be connected or should be or what would the plus or minus be if the references were connected in any way to a political party, and the answer that was given was: yes, it could hurt you--you being the applicant--if the references were from one party or another party.
I am wondering if the minister has any response to that, seeing that this is a Civil Service Commission program and one would think, as would the internship program that is dealt with in the caucuses, applicants of which I have been a part for the last four years, applicants often, or sometimes, not often but sometimes have references written by people who are clearly, or can very clearly be identified as being connected with one political party or another, and that has not made any difference in our determination of whether they should be an intern or not, and I am wondering if the minister has any comments on this. It would appear that that kind of a comment does not have any place in the civil service process.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I have been an MLA for 10 years and a few days now and been Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission for a year and a few months and I can tell you in my relationship with any of the staff at the Civil Service Commission, I have nothing but the highest respect for the manner in which they conduct themselves. I am full of confidence that any of the competitions that they are responsible for, any of the activities that they undertake, any of the processes they are involved with, with individuals across this province, it is a very professional relationship, and I believe that they always act within the guidelines of the legislation. I have tremendous confidence that they will follow the legislation and follow the guidelines that have been laid down for the Civil Service Commission.
Ms. Barrett: Then would the minister say that an answer such as was given to this person at this public meeting that, yes, references from a political party or another could potentially hurt an applicant? Would he agree that would be outside the guidelines of the Civil Service Commission and certainly outside the guidelines of the Internship Program?
Mr. Gilleshammer: This is an apolitical process that the civil service conducts, and any attempt to inject politics into the process would be seen as inappropriate.
Ms. Barrett: I would agree that it is an apolitical process, and I think it should actually be even more apolitical than the caucus internship program which has been operating since 1986, where ultimately the young people who are selected to participate in this program actually work with the various caucuses in the Legislature. They do very political things. Although it is technically a nonpolitical position, they work with the most political part of the governing process, which is with the caucuses, and there we do not take cognizance--or we would never say that a reference could hurt you in this context, so again I am not imputing any--I do not have a clue who made the comment. I can go back and try and find some more information out if the minister wants, and I do not have any reason to disbelieve the person that said this to me. When this person said this to me, it triggered something in me that said very quickly: this is probably not appropriate. So I wanted to raise it with the minister and ask him if he thinks that if this were the case, would it have been an appropriate thing to say?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I have indicated that this is an apolitical process, and I think the member readily admits that she was not there and does not fully understand it, and neither do I. But I think that, in anything that the Civil Service Commission does and says, they try to leave the impression that the references that one uses should not be of a political nature, that they are not going to be given any weight, and one might be wise to have people act as a reference based on knowledge of that person's ability and work experience and suitability for a position.
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Ms. Barrett: So what the minister is saying is that he thinks that perhaps the answer to this question was do not send in political references but send in nonpolitical references. Now the minister, no more than I do, has any way of knowing for sure what was actually said. But I got a very clear feeling from what was said to me that it was not. This is an apolitical process so you should not do political references at all but, yes, depending on which party it could hurt you. If that were the case, is that an inappropriate thing to have said at this part of the process for the internship program?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I think the member is saying that not only does she not know exactly what was said nor in what context it was said and is asking me to speculate on it, and I do not think we are going to go anywhere with this. I have said to the member that I am comfortable with the guidelines, the regulations under which the Civil Service Commission conducts their competitions and their business on a day-to-day basis, and I would think what staff were trying to engender amongst students is that this is an apolitical process. Do not feel that you have to load up your resume with how many political campaigns you have been involved with or whatever political background you bring. I do believe that the experience that we have had within the recruitment for this Management Internship Program has been very straightforward and following guidelines by which the civil service has acted over a long period of time.
Ms. Barrett: I will not carry on with this, because past experience with this minister leads me to understand that I would not get any further than I already have gotten, which is not very far.
There is, as the minister said last week, a written exam or written information that was required after the first cut, if you will, of applicants. What form does that written exam take?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told we use the federal government written entrance examination.
Ms. Barrett: What kinds of things are involved in that, not specific questions, but what kinds of categories are there?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The examination that is used is an attempt to evaluate the existing skills of an applicant to be able to read a document in précis form, reproduce the essence of that in one's own words to show not only written skills but understanding of what a document is, the ability to write very succinctly what could be termed briefing notes, to give a thorough but brief explanation of a particular subject.
Ms. Barrett: So the written exam was just dealing with the précis and the ability to distill the essence of something or was the other part of the written exam, the personality test that we were talking about last time. Are there other elements to the written exam?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The personality test inventory that is used is completely separate from what we are talking about here. This is simply a tool to evaluate the written skills of an individual, one that is used by the federal government, and it deals with the ability to comprehend and ability to, in writing, explain what one has read.
Ms. Barrett: So at what point in the process would the personality profile test, which the minister said last time was called the preview assessment, take place? At what point in the examination process or the hiring process would that exam take place?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I am told that this exercise could probably be referred to as the fifth step in the evaluation of candidates.
Ms. Barrett: What, may I ask, is the fourth step, and what, may I ask, is the sixth step then?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The fourth step is the preliminary interview and the sixth step is the selection board.
Ms. Barrett: So the fifth step which is or includes the personality profile also includes the written exam dealing with the précis, et cetera, and if not, where does that come in?
Mr. Gilleshammer: It does not. I am told it is the third step.
Ms. Barrett: So the written material that a prospective intern would deal with and the third step is the ability to write and reproduce succinctly briefing notes, et cetera. If they get past that, the fourth step is the preliminary interview at which time the preview assessment is undertaken or is part of that fourth preliminary interview?
Mr. Gilleshammer: This interview, called the fourth step, reviews the evaluation of the candidate in the previous steps.
Ms. Barrett: So after that review of the previous steps, the fifth step then includes the personality evaluation?
Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct.
Ms. Barrett: Is that a written personality assessment?
Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct.
Ms. Barrett: What happens in step six?
Mr. Gilleshammer: That is referred to as the selection board interview.
Ms. Barrett: The selection board interview is the interview that takes place often with the Family Services, Treasury Board and Civil Service Commission people that the minister spoke of last week?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I believe the third part to that was the Department of Education.
Ms. Barrett: Are there any established criteria that are used when determining whether a potential intern gets past the third step, the fourth step or the fifth step?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The interns would be evaluated at all steps of the process.
Ms. Barrett: Who evaluates them at all steps of the process?
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Mr. Gilleshammer: That would be the program staff of the Civil Service Commission.
Ms. Barrett: The program staff would be within the human resources division of the Civil Service Commission?
Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct.
Ms. Barrett: Do those staff members have guidelines that they base their evaluations on? I assume a précis is kind of anything that is in an essay form or not multiple-choice, question-answer, that it has a quality about it, rather than just a quantitative definition. You will have to have a subjective element to it. I am not saying anything negative about that, but there surely must also be some guidelines or parameters or criteria that the people who are assessing at stage three or four would connect with or would put their evaluation up against?
Mr. Gilleshammer: They are evaluated against the standardized criteria that the federal government uses and is marked by them.
Ms. Barrett: So if they are evaluated against standardized criteria, does that mean that those applicants who score highest in step three would then make it to step four, or are there other elements that come into play here?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I think it is fair to say that those students who grade at the upper ends of the grading scores proceed on, and those at the lower end are the ones who do not.
Ms. Barrett: The qualifications listed in the large information sheet that the minister gave me last week include under Additional Considerations a high level of commitment to the program. I am just wondering how that is determined.
Mr. Gilleshammer: The member is correct. Under Additional Considerations, there are a number of items, including appropriate work experience, strong interpersonal and leadership abilities, effective oral and written communication skills, problem-solving skills, volunteer experience, a language other than English, and a high level of commitment to the program. Those that evaluate the potential interns bear this in mind at all steps of the process.
Ms. Barrett: I apologize. Could the minister repeat his last sentence, please? I have in front of me the Additional Considerations. He does not need to read those out again, but the question I had was about the last one, which is a high level of commitment to the program and how that is determined. I apologize to the minister. I was distracted by my colleague and did not hear the very last sentence of his response.
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am pleased to accept your apology. What I said was, in all those considerations, these are taken into consideration by those who are doing the evaluation at all steps of the evaluation process.
Ms. Barrett: Well, I would hope they would be taken into consideration, because they are listed under Additional Considerations. How does one measure a high level of commitment to the program?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I guess it is fair to say it is not like taking somebody's temperature where you get an exact reading--
Ms. Barrett: That is exactly why I am asking the question.
Mr. Gilleshammer: --but it is part of the evaluation process that the evaluators, who are skilled and trained at this, will use as part of the criteria when they ultimately make a decision.
Ms. Barrett: What kind of skill and training or components of that skill and training specifically? Do they ask questions? Are there written questions that they respond to? Do they say: how will your family look at this? How do they determine this?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, they would look carefully at the courses that they have taken. They will look at the activities that they have been involved in. They would also evaluate the correspondence, the letter of application, with the view of evaluating the commitment to the program. Again, it is not a scientific test that is given to the candidates, but I would say that these are people who are skilled in human resource development and that they would keep that in mind as they ultimately make their evaluations.
If you are asking: is there a great deal of difference between the sixth candidate selected and the seventh one, probably the difference would be very narrow, but we rely on the expertise within the Civil Service Commission and the tools that they have at hand to make those decisions.
Ms. Barrett: The minister said on Thursday or whenever, I guess it was Thursday, that the interns, once they have been selected, go through an orientation session and then a rotation through various departments and would probably have three or four departments during their internship and that the assignments were based on the interns' background and interest.
Can the minister tell us, of the six interns who are graduating this year--well, let us start with that--what were the departments that these interns have gone through in their two years?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, some of the departments that have been involved are Labour, Intergovernmental Affairs, Government Services, Education and Training, Treasury Board, Civil Service, Justice, Culture and Heritage, Highways, and Industry, Trade and Tourism--Government Services, I have already mentioned. So there are a variety of departments that have been involved.
Ms. Barrett: The minister said that it was at least partly based on the background and the interest of the interns as to where they were assigned, but I would assume that over three or four assignments your background and interest would vary. I mean, there are about 10 departments here, so it is going to be based partly on the interns' interest, but I assume as well on the department's interest. How does the program go about assigning interns to the various departments and at what level within the department? Who decides what the intern is going to do within each department?
Mr. Gilleshammer: That would be the senior managers in the departments.
Ms. Barrett: That would be the senior managers in the departments that determine where the interns are placed and/or make application to the program for interns to be placed within them?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, the students make application, and there is a certain amount of, I suppose, latitude given to have students indicate some departments of interest. Middle managers within the departments are involved in identifying experiences that might be appropriate.
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Ms. Barrett: Okay, say I were an intern and I had identified an interest in education and some background in that and that looked to be a good fit, so I went into the Department of Education for my first rotation. How am I picked, or how do I go from Education to another one of the assignments?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The program staff within the Civil Service branch that we are dealing with work with the departments and with the students, the interns to facilitate these moves.
Ms. Barrett: I would like to spend more time on this program, but there are other things I would like to ask questions on. So I think I will move on to the next interesting program that is under the Human Resources area. That is the Aboriginal Management Development Project.
I am wondering if the minister has any information in writing, as he did for the Management Internship Program, on the Aboriginal Management Development Project.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Maybe I can do as I did last time and put a few thoughts on the record and give my honourable friend an opportunity to ask questions on that.
The Aboriginal Management Development Project is a two-year pilot project to train and develop existing aboriginal employees to acquire skills to compete effectively for management positions. This was announced in the fall of 1996, a partnership between the Civil Service Commission and departments to provide services to aboriginal people as customers, clients or partners.
There is an initial intake of nine management trainees identified and sponsored by departments on the basis of proven supervisory experience and demonstrated leadership potential. It is centrally managed, has work assignments, orientation, structured training, networking and mentoring over a two-year period. The ultimate goal is successful placement and enhanced ability to compete for management positions in government.
The current status, we have nine employees sponsored by the departments of Northern Affairs, Family Services, Highways and Transportation, Justice, Health, and Natural Resources, and they are commencing the second year of this project. An evaluation will be completed within the coming year regarding its success and potential for a second intake.
Ms. Barrett: The minister spoke about, as well in the annual report it talks about, employees who demonstrate significant leadership potential. How is that demonstration shown? How do you determine which ones demonstrate that leadership potential?
Mr. Gilleshammer: This could develop in two ways, I suppose: individuals could identify themselves as being interested in the Aboriginal Management Development Project, or they could be nominated by staff within the respective departments.
Ms. Barrett: When this pilot project first came on line in the fall of '96, I believe, were all civil servants notified of this program, or how did people get to know about this program?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The involved departments who are supplying the staff year made staff within their department aware of it. It was sort of an internal process for explaining and identifying the program.
Ms. Barrett: So how many departments then would have been involved in notifying internally their employees?
Mr. Gilleshammer: It would be the ones that I read into the record a few minutes ago. I can repeat them for the member just in case a question comes to mind, but if she would rather not hear it, okay.
Ms. Barrett: No, I took down the information. The minister spoke about the departments that provide customers, clients and partnerships with the aboriginal community, I think, in the context of listing then these departments. But are there not aboriginal employees in other departments or not?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes.
Ms. Barrett: So how would aboriginal employees throughout the government find out about these programs which are in these six departments?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Chairman, this was commenced as a pilot project, and we have just completed our first year. The intention would be to analyze the experience that individuals have had within those departments and hopefully expand this in the coming years. That evaluation has not yet been completed, and we look forward to it coming forward in due course.
Ms. Barrett: My question was: if I were an aboriginal civil servant working in the Department of Education, how would I find out about this program so I could self-identify that I was interested in it?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Chairman, the first step would be for that department, or any department other than the ones I had indicated earlier, to opt into the program. I know that there will be departments who are awaiting the evaluation of this first-year pilot project.
Ms. Barrett: So the pilot project is not open to all aboriginal employees. It is open to all aboriginal employees in these departments that have been listed because it is a pilot project.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Our first year of operation was fiscal year 1997, and it was restricted to those departments that I had indicated earlier.
Ms. Barrett: If the project is evaluated successfully, then perhaps other departments would participate in the project?
Mr. Gilleshammer: That would be my hope.
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Ms. Barrett: I assume that there is mentoring that goes along with this program and that the program itself requires time from existing staff or additional staff to provide the assistance that is needed to assist these individuals to accelerate their potential. So that may be one of the reasons why departments need to self-select themselves into the program, because it does require some realignment of staff duties. Am I accurate in that assessment?
Mr. Gilleshammer: You are accurate in that mentoring is a part of this. I cannot stress enough that this was a pilot project, one that we as a government are very much committed to, one that we think will succeed, but with any endeavour such as this it is always wise to evaluate what you have done before you expand it to a greater degree.
Ms. Barrett: Were any additional funds available for this project, or were the funds found from within the various departments where these employees work?
Mr. Gilleshammer: As I indicated earlier, departments were responsible for the staff years and the dollars involved. There was a reallocation of some operating funds within the Civil Service Commission to be able to manage this program.
Ms. Barrett: Can the minister give me a figure on the sum funds, and from where did they come?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes. The departments that I had indicated before--Northern Affairs, Family Services, Highways and Transportation, Justice, Health and Natural Resources--were the departments that housed these nine staff years, and, usually, we assign about $40,000 per staff year, if you want to use that, for the nine individuals. Then there probably would be some other costs associated, as well. As I have indicated, the Civil Service Commission also reallocated some existing operating funds to participate in this project.
Ms. Barrett: The civil service funds, how much were they and what were they reallocated to do in this project?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The existing dollars within the Civil Service Commission that were reallocated were around $60,000. This would be dollars that would have been used for orientation, for some structured training, for some mentoring, and for assessment.
Ms. Barrett: The minister talked about $40,000 per SY, approximately for the nine staff, you could say approximately for each of the nine staff. Now I do not know why, why would there have to be a reallocation? Is that because the people who are in the project are not doing the work that they were hired to do, they are taking some time off that work to do this project? I guess this gets down to what exactly does the project do? What does an individual in this project do?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The reallocation that I spoke of, the $60,000, was funding within the Civil Service Commission, and I indicated it was for a variety of topics such as orientation and structured training, mentoring, and evaluation. So those were the civil service dollars.
Ms. Barrett: Yes, I know, but earlier the minister spoke about the nine SYs that were involved in the project, and I am assuming that is the nine individuals who were actually part of the pilot project. You said take an average of approximately $40,000 per SY. I am asking why in the context of a reallocation of funds, does that mean that each of those nine employees is not doing their civil service work because they are in this project or part of their day is taken up with the project? Why does there need to be a reallocation?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, maybe it would help if I indicated to my honourable friend that while they were in the Aboriginal Management Development Project, they were in a staff year and the staff year and the work that they previously did, someone had to backfill to do that particular work.
Ms. Barrett: Yes, that is what I was getting at. So the project itself is, it takes these nine individuals and they do project work rather than their own job. So they spend the entire two years working on the project or being participants in the project, rather than doing the job for which they were hired originally.
Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct. The pilot year is dedicated to management development as the title indicates.
Ms. Barrett: So those nine members of the pilot project will have spent their year on orientation, training, mentoring and assessment, being assessed. Are there any other costs associated with the training part of it, the assessment, other than the $60,000? Are there other outside services that are provided?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The $60,000 that we mentioned was used, in part, to have somebody come in and do the assessment on their training and the skills that they developed.
Ms. Barrett: What is the total budget for this project?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, it would be just over $400,000.
Ms. Barrett: And the elements of that budget.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, there would be nine staff years, plus $60,000 within the Civil Service Commission for training.
Ms. Barrett: So nine individuals get a year of training for $60,000. That is the total cost of the whole year of training for all nine of those individuals. Are there no other training programs or other external or internal costs to this?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, the on-the-job training takes place by existing staff members within those departments, and they give up and use some of their time to do that training. The $60,000 that I referenced was the cost to the Civil Service Commission to do the things that I have indicated that they do.
Ms. Barrett: I think that completes my questions on that particular element. Now if you can hold for just a moment because I am not sure if this is all that I--
Yes, continuing on in the Human Resources element, some of the activities that are identified additionally to the two very interesting programs that we have been speaking about, one says "Identify barriers and issues related to employment equity and recommend program enhancements." Can the minister give me some examples of barriers and issues that still exist in relation to employment equity and what some of those recommended enhancements might be?
Mr. Gilleshammer: We currently have two staff within the Civil Service Commission who work with the employment equity co-ordinators who are in each department. The employment equity co-ordinators identify some of the barriers as they see them within the department that they are responsible for, and our staff will work with them to see if we can resolve or eliminate some of these barriers.
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One example that was given to me was in the Department of Justice where previously one of the academic requirements for candidates within the Corrections branch was that they have a Grade 12 certificate. This is no longer the case. It was removed. In place, their experience and activities were reviewed and that which had been seen as a barrier was removed, and others could apply to get into that particular position.
Ms. Barrett: Is there a report that the Civil Service Commission gets from these employment equity co-ordinators within each department, like an annual report of the issues and what has been done to enhance them?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, each of these employment equity co-ordinators does provide a report to staff within the Civil Service Commission on what would be called, I suppose, employment barriers. Working with our staff, they evaluate these barriers and attempt to, where possible, eliminate them.
Ms. Barrett: Is that report an internal document or is it accessible to anyone who would like it?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told it is internal to the commission.
Ms. Barrett: In the annual report, it speaks about the percentages of employees in each of the employment equity designated groups. I am wondering if the minister can provide me, in writing please, not reading into the record right now as has been done in the past, with the numbers of people in each of those categories. Like women 51 percent, what does that correspond to in an actual number? And also representation by the various categories, which are managerial, professional-technical and admin support. So if that report could be distributed to me, that would be very helpful.
Mr. Gilleshammer: I can provide some information for my honourable friend if I understand what it is that she is looking for. I have comparative statistics indicating the staffing percentages and staffing numbers of male, female, aboriginal, persons with disabilities and visible minorities. Is that the information you are looking for?
Ms. Barrett: That is half the information. The other half would be, within each of the categories in the Civil Service, which is managerial, professional/technical and admin support. Within each of those categories, what proportion are male, what proportion are female, what proportion are disabilities, aboriginal people and visible minorities? So total, and then within the three basic employee categories.
Mr. Gilleshammer: If I have heard my honourable friend right, yes, we can see that that information comes forward, and if it is not to her liking, she can simply tell me and we can redo it to suit her needs.
Ms. Barrett: Thank you.
Mr. Chairperson: Item 17.1.(c) Human Resource Management Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,010,800--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $674,100--pass.
17.1.(d) Labour Relations Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,187,700.
Ms. Barrett: I may have made a mistake here. I did. I would like to revert, if I may, to the Employee Assistance Program just to make a comment and a very positive comment on that item. Is it possible for me to revert to that?
Mr. Chairperson: Is there unanimous consent of the committee to revert to the previous section? [agreed]
Ms. Barrett: Under the Employee Assistance Program, one of my longtime friends is not a civil servant but is a worker in an agency that is funded by the government, so an external agency I guess. She had personal and work-related stress factors in the last six months that were very difficult for her, and she asked me what I thought she should do. I said to her: you should see a counsellor. She said okay. Then I was trying to get some names of people that I have known from my experience.
In the meantime, she phoned the Employee Assistance Program. I think within two hours she had an interview and she went down and saw the person at EAP. She called me back later the next day and said it was magnificent. She had gotten exactly the kind of assistance she needed and was very impressed with the quality of service that she had received and the expediency which she had been dealt with. So I just thought I would put that on the record, that one person's experience on this side was very positive.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I thank my honourable friend for those kind words. We will be sure that staff within the civil service do have a chance to read those. I think the Employee Assistance Program is very important to large organizations. I would just comment that just over 10 years ago I was part of the Manitoba Teachers' Society and employee assistance program workers were relatively new there at that time. In the initial start-up, I think there were people who were questioning expenditures of that nature and the need for employee assistance personnel. Since then, that particular unit within the Teachers' Society has grown somewhat, and someone that I am familiar with is also working in that area.
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It is dramatic the number of people who are seeking assistance, not only, as some thought at the time, young people just getting into that profession. It does span all age groups, all geographic areas of the province and is a source of some concern to some of us that so much of that kind of assistance is needed and particularly for people who are late in their career who should be coming to the end of a wonderful career where they have made a major contribution. Yet sometimes the case is in the final years they do experience a great deal of stress and discomfort. I know from what my honourable friend has just said and the people that I know within government and within organizations like the MTS, these people play a very valuable role and do a very needed job for individuals who are faced with that stress.
Ms. Barrett: It is not just individuals who are in their final years, as the minister suggested. I know the minister did not suggest that, but I did want to say potentially part of the stress might have been caused by the, in some cases, reduction in numbers of civil servants, in the uncertainty about their jobs and their future, in the uncertainly about programs, in all of the decisions that have been made, many of which we believe were not good management decisions and certainly have not shown to be good programming decisions for services as well as enormous stress placed on civil servants. So, again, the Employee Assistance Program has, I am sure, proven itself time and time again to be a very effective tool and I think in some cases probably has had to be utilized more than it should be because of some of the decisions made by the government.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I do have to take a moment to correct my honourable friend. I think she corrected herself, but I certainly did not indicate that programs of this nature were only for people at the end of their careers. In fact, I started my comments by saying that they served a wide spectrum of people from a number of geographic regions and the program, whether it is within government or within the private sector, is there for all employees. The member should be aware that in today's society there are lots of stresses on individuals, whether they are students in schools or universities, whether they are individuals that work for government or individuals who work for the private sector. I do not think any particular group has a claim to being the only group that feels this stress. It is widespread across society.
Ms. Barrett: I am not going to get into an extended debate with the minister on this because it could go on for a great period of time, and I do not want to take away from the positive work of the Employee Assistance Program. So I will move on and at some later date perhaps have an opportunity to put on the record some of my more general concerns.
I have finished with my comments on Employee Assistance Program, so are we now technically back into 1.(d)?
Mr. Chairperson: Item 17.1. Civil Service Commission (d) Labour Relations Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,187,700.
Ms. Barrett: In the Negotiation Services component of 1.(d), I would like to ask the minister who the Public Sector Compensation--who are the members of the Public Sector Compensation Committee of Cabinet. The Negotiation Services acts as secretariat to this organization or this body.
Mr. Gilleshammer: There are 18 members in Executive Council and a number of those from time to time serve on the Public Sector Compensation Committee.
Ms. Barrett: Other cabinet committees, the Urban Affairs Committee of Cabinet, the committee that deals with--that has on it the Family Services, Justice, Health and Education committee have concrete specific names of ministers attached or departments. Why is the Public Sector Compensation Committee of Cabinet not structured in that same way?
Mr. Gilleshammer: It is structured by Order-in-Council, and currently the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) and the Minister of Labour (Mr. Gilleshammer) are on that committee.
Ms. Barrett: It would have been easier had the minister just given me those three names at the beginning. Could the minister tell me how many civil servants there are actually in the government today versus how many there were at the end of fiscal '96-97?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The most current information that staff have put in front of me is that as of December of 1997, we had 14,591 employees, comparing that to December of 1996 at which time there were 14,475.
Ms. Barrett: How many positions does this represent, or staff years, perhaps?
Mr. Gilleshammer: For our purposes within the Civil Service Commission, we just count employees.
Ms. Barrett: So there is no way of figuring out how many of these people work part time?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Full-time equivalence, we have 11,219; part-time casual, 3,372 as of December 1997, which gives you that figure of 14,591.
Ms. Barrett: This is interesting, because in the annual report ending March 31, 1997, on page 43, Employment Statistics: Total Number of Civil Service Employees at Fiscal Year End 1995-1996-1997, the grand total of civil service employees and contract employees, March of '97, was 14,373. So is the minister saying that in the period between March 31, 1997, and December 31, 1997, that they added approximately 218 employees?
Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct.
Ms. Barrett: So the government is employing more people now than it has in the past. Is this a reversal of a trend that we are seeing?
* (1550)
Mr. Gilleshammer: The trouble that my honourable friend is having with the arithmetic is probably explained by the fact that there are seasonal employees, so the number of employees is not static through the entire year.
Ms. Barrett: When do most seasonal employees work?
Mr. Gilleshammer: That would be in the summertime.
Ms. Barrett: That is what I thought. But we have here two statistics, March of '97 and December of '97, neither of which period is summertime or even spring. Yet there are approximately 220 more employees at the end of December last year than there were in March last year.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I could give the member some numbers for each department showing what their staff complement was at four different times within the year, and then she would perhaps understand that these numbers vary. In March of 1997 our staff complement was 14,373. In June of 1997 it was 16,273. In September it was 15,209, and in December it is the aforementioned 14,591. But maybe I could select some departments that would help her understand this better.
In Government Services, in March there were 961 staff members. In June there were 937; September, 915; and December, 922--so slight changes. I will perhaps pick out another department, the Department of Labour. In March there were 268 staff; in June, 261; in September, 265; in December, 258. Natural Resources maybe is a good example of a more seasonal one. In March there were 996 staff; in June there were 2,174; in September there were 1,701; and, in December there were 1,099. So these numbers vary on a seasonal basis, and I have given my honourable friend an accurate snapshot of the number of employees at the end of 1997.
Ms. Barrett: I think what perhaps would be more helpful for me if the minister could provide it, again, I do not need it read into the record, but the March '98, if he has it, equivalent to the employment stats as were in the annual report, just the Civil Service employees, rather than adding the casuals on. If that is available at some future date, I would appreciate that.
Mr. Gilleshammer: The numbers for the end of March 1998 are, obviously, not available, but at a future date they will be.
Ms. Barrett: May I ask in advance for them to be sent to me when that future date comes to be?
Mr. Gilleshammer: It would be our pleasure.
Mr. Chairperson: Item 17.1.(d) Labour Relations Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,187,700--pass; 1.(d)(2) Other Expenditures $327,800--pass; 1.(e) Organization and Staff Development Agency.
Ms. Barrett: Who sits on the advisory board, please?
* (1600)
Mr. Gilleshammer: The gentlemen to my left, Paul Hart, is a member of the board; Tom Farrell, who is the Deputy Minister of Labour; Bruce MacFarlane, Q.C., Deputy Minister of Manitoba Justice; Jack McKay, vice-president, Human Resources, Investors Group; Herb Robertson, Director, Organization and Staff Development; and, Jim Robson, Information Services director, Great-West Life Assurance.
Ms. Barrett: The 1997 annual report, page 7, talks about training and projects, and the number of workshops that has substantially decreased from '94-95 to '96-97, half, actually, and almost a quarter of the people that participated in '94-95 participated in '96-97. Rural workshops went from 60 to seven, et cetera, and I am wondering if the minister can explain that decrease.
Mr. Gilleshammer: The organization responds to interests and needs of members of the civil service and, if you will look at the bottom table, there has been a shift from the workshops to more projects and training, as indicated in that second table. So I guess it is fair to say that the organization attempts to adjust to the needs of the workforce.
Ms. Barrett: So the projects are much more specific than the general training or the workshops are?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, the shift is from general workshops to more specific training as identified by client departments.
Ms. Barrett: I do not understand the column in both of those categories, the percentage column. What do the percentages relate to? Like the first column in the workshops, '96-97, that figure is 70 percent. What is it 70 percent of?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told it is vendors used as a percentage of the number of workshops. In other words, in the first line, 70 percent, there were 73 vendors out of 104 workshops.
Ms. Barrett: Okay. I think that is it. Yes.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Are we completed?
Ms. Barrett: Yes, for now.
Mr. Chairperson: Item 17.1. Civil Service Commission (e) Organization and Staff Development Agency zero--pass.
Resolution 17.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,258,000 for Civil Service Commission for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1999.