Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of Seniors Directorate. Does the honourable minister responsible have an opening statement?
Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Chairperson, as Minister responsible for Seniors, I am pleased to present the 1998-99 budget Estimates for the Seniors Directorate.
Seniors aged 65 and over are forming a growing share of Canada's population. Future population projections based on information on births, deaths, and migration tell us that by the year 2016 seniors will comprise an unprecedented 16.7 percent of the Manitoba population. Currently, the 85-and-over age group is the fastest growing segment of Canada's older population. Between the years 2011 and 2021, the fastest growing segment of the older population, with most baby boomers retiring or retired, is expected to be the 65 to 74 age group.
In Manitoba, according to the 1996 census, there are 156,258 seniors representing 13.6 percent of the Manitoba population. Manitoba ranked second among the provinces and territories in percentage of the total population who are seniors. As a group, they make an immeasurable contribution to our province.
A large portion of today's seniors are well educated, healthy, and have greater disposable income than ever before. Consequently, seniors' lifestyles and expectations are changing.
The role of the Minister responsible for Seniors continues to be a very important and challenging one. Our government is committed to preserving and enhancing the quality of life for older Manitobans.
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The Seniors Directorate continues its work to ensure that seniors' needs and concerns are addressed in the development of government policies and programs. They continue to work closely with government, nongovernment and community-based agencies which impact on the lives of seniors.
Through consistency and hard work, the directorate has maintained its close working relationship with seniors' groups throughout Manitoba, allowing the directorate to continue its ongoing dialogue with seniors.
The following are some of the highlights of 1997:
In my discussions with seniors and representatives of seniors' organizations, I am keenly aware of the public concern for individual safety and security of older persons. I consider this to be a very important issue and, in response, have worked closely with my colleagues in the Department of Justice and other sectors of my government in seeking a co-ordinated approach to services for older victims of crime.
Last year, I spoke to you of a much-needed legal handbook on safety and security for seniors. It was released in 1997 to overwhelming demand. To date, almost 16,000 copies have been distributed to Manitoba seniors, their families and the caregivers.
In March of 1998, I again attended the federal-provincial-territorial meeting of ministers responsible for Seniors across Canada. Ministers meet to plan collaborative approaches across jurisdictions and sectors to address challenges associated with the demographics of an aging society.
In 1997-98, we affirmed our joint commitment to include seniors' perspectives and needs in all relevant legislation, policy and program initiatives, and to continue to work co-operatively to this end. Ministers across Canada addressed the key issues of importance to seniors today--safety and security; palliative and continuing care; as well as supportive housing for older persons.
Highlights included the approval of the development of a national database of federal, provincial and territorial policies and programs for seniors, for use with the National Framework on Aging. It will contain information on health, social housing and income support programs and other services.
In 1997, a set of principles and policy questions were developed in collaboration with seniors across the country. The five principles are based on what seniors express as their consistent values and aspirations for a high quality of life--security, independence, dignity, participation and fairness. These principles enable the application of "a seniors' lens" to government initiatives at all levels.
The principle and the policy questions will make up a guide entitled Principles of the National Framework on Aging: A Policy Guide, which also received ministers' endorsement.
This is a project spanning three years that will provide government departments with a unique tool to enhance their ability to meet the needs and the priorities of our older citizens.
The Seniors Directorate continued to be the central point of contact for seniors and their organizations.
The seniors information line was again well used by seniors and their families, providing them with information, assistance and referral. The types of calls received reflect the issues and the concerns of seniors throughout Manitoba. In 1997-98, there were over 4,400 calls received on the seniors information line. This represents a continued increase in the number of calls requesting information assistance. This does not include the additional calls made by the directorate on behalf of callers to various departments and services.
The computerized housing directory continues to be a popular resource for seniors looking for a place to live. The directory lists rental units, condominiums, townhouses, mobile homes and residences for persons 55 and over around the province. The list includes housing available for rent, purchase or life lease. The directorate reviews and updates this list on an ongoing basis.
Directorate staff supported the Manitoba Council on Aging in undertaking its function as an advisory body to the Minister responsible for Seniors. The insight and the recommendations from the council have been an invaluable resource in providing a direct link between older Manitobans and government. The directorate continues to play a leading role in the area on abuse of the elderly. With the concept that service delivery reflects our values, the directorate provided abuse training workshops in 1997 for professionals in law enforcement areas. Elder abuse is a multifaceted problem that must be acknowledged and addressed.
Also, in the area of increasing sensitivity towards seniors and their concerns, I am very proud to inform you of the successful launch of Through Other Eyes, a training workshop targeted at business and agencies providing services accessed by seniors. The two-hour workshops help businesses and organizations see their establishments through the eyes of seniors. The aim is to remove physical and psychological barriers that may discourage seniors from using their services, products and facilities.
Staff delivered workshops to retail, banking and government sectors throughout 1997. In June 1997, during Seniors Month, special celebrations were held in the Westman and Eastman regions as well as in Winnipeg in the North Kildonan area. Each year the directorate works with host seniors' groups to plan these events.
My column in Seniors Today continues to receive a very positive response. Seniors have told us that the information is useful and helpful. The Manitoba Society of Seniors also requested a monthly submission from me for the Manitoba Society of Seniors Journal. I began contributing to each issue of the journal in June. In addition, the directorate published the biannual seniors newsletter, the Seniors Source, first introduced in December of 1994. This newsletter has assisted us in keeping seniors informed by providing them with updates on government programs and the services that could benefit them. Our next edition will be ready for distribution to seniors and seniors' organizations in the early summer of this year.
As you can see, 1997 was a very full year, and 1998-99 will continue with a busy schedule. The initiatives that we have planned in 1998-99 include safety and security, as it continues to be a priority for my government. During 1998-99, I will continue to work closely with the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) and his staff to further the rights and enhance the services for victims of crime. My staff will continue working with seniors and various agencies linked to ensure seniors are well informed about how to avoid undue risks.
My staff participate on a provincial government committee on crime and on a network of interagency representatives on safety and security. As well, staff is working with community-based organizations and the police on possible initiatives to promote safety and security at the federal-provincial-territorial level. I am working with my colleagues in other jurisdictions to establish a working group to identify concrete options to ensure safety and security of seniors. This includes consultations with the National Advisory Council on Aging and our Council on Aging in Manitoba.
In 1992, the United Nations General Assembly designated 1999 as the International Year of Older Persons. The United Nations theme for this year is Canada: A Society for All Ages. It is anticipated that it will foster a worldwide awareness of the importance of seniors' role in society and the importance of intergenerational harmony, respect and support. I believe it will also affect the way that we as Manitobans view the aging process and the values we place on respect and understanding for all, regardless of age.
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Our government will be promoting active participation of public, private and not-for-profit organizations in a range of projects and initiatives. It is our hope that, by working in partnership with groups throughout Manitoba, we will address some issues that are important to our province and benefit seniors now and in the future. Projects will involve not only seniors and agencies closely tied with seniors but people of all ages including projects with youth and school-aged children. It will provide Manitobans with the opportunity to enhance communication between citizens of all ages and build bridges of understanding between the generations.
Manitoba's Seniors Directorate will act as a central contact prior to and during The International Year of Older Persons 1999. It will publicize events across Manitoba and share ideas and provide assistance wherever possible. The year will officially be announced on October 1, 1998, The International Day of the Older Persons. As part of its educational mandate, the Seniors Directorate will continue to offer Through Other Eyes to raise awareness on the special needs of aging adults and people with disabilities. Responses from business and service providers has been encouraging. Those who have used the training within their organizations report it enabled them to make positive changes which benefited their older customers.
The directorate continues to respond to requests for educational print materials on topics most frequently requested by older persons such as legal, health care and safety. A new updated edition of the Senior Citizens Handbook, the seventh edition, will be issued early in 1998 by the Council on Aging. I believe that handbook has already been distributed and is available.
The Manitoba Council on Aging awarded the first recognition awards in 1997 to honour individuals, organizations or businesses whose exceptional acts benefited seniors or whose valuable services reflected a positive attitude towards older persons. The council is again hosting this prestigious award. The deadline for submitting nominations was April 15, 1998. Awards will be presented at a recognition ceremony to be held in the Legislative Building in June of this year, 1998.
As Minister responsible for Seniors, I will continue to actively participate at federal/provincial/territorial meetings of Ministers for Seniors across Canada. I will continue my commitment and my support for development of the national framework on aging, and I will also continue to collaborate with other jurisdictions on common issues such as the enhancement of safety and security for seniors, sharing models of service delivery to maximize quality care to older persons. I remain committed to increasing awareness of the choices pertaining to palliative care and sharing best practices in the provision of supportive housing. I will also ensure Manitoba has representation on the Canada co-ordinating committee to stimulate and co-ordinate activities for the International Year of the Older Persons, 1999.
I shall continue to strive to be in step with the aspirations and priorities of seniors in all undertakings of this government. To this end, a two-way communication system for the sharing of ideas, visions and plans is crucial.
In closing, I believe the Seniors Directorate and the Manitoba Council on Aging is continuing to fulfill an invaluable role within government by ensuring that we are meeting the needs of Manitoba seniors to the maximum extent possible. Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.
Mr. Chairperson: I would like to thank the honourable minister for his opening comments. Would the critic for the official opposition party have an opening statement?
Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Mr. Chairperson, the honourable minister mentioned issues high in priority as far as seniors are concerned. He mentioned individual safety and health care and housing and income support and observed particularly that there is an enhanced wellness among seniors who are now living longer today in a healthier lifestyle than before and who had secured for themselves some kind of secure base for their income support during late in life, particularly for those retirees who had pensions and other help in old age.
There are of course many issues that concern seniors in this province which the minister observed is about 13.6 percent of the population. There are other issues: the erosion, for example, of fixed income of those seniors who are not so lucky to have saved enough, and the loss of the age tax credit and the pension income clawbacks by the federal government.
In matters of health care services, they are also very worried about the loss and deterioration of medicare, of home care needs and high costs of personal care homes. In matters of personal safety and security, there is patent inadequacy in our justice system. We have heard about invasions of homes of seniors in our very own city, and there are also increasing costs in other items of ordinary life, like the increasing telephone rates in this province. There are municipal property tax increases for those seniors who are still able to manage to continue owning and maintaining their homes, and some seniors who are not so lucky are worried about daycare for older adults and for children and the adequacy of Pharmacare insurance coverage for some of them who are poor seniors.
There are some conflicts sometimes with seniors and their own kin, intergenerational social conflicts. They are sometimes exposed to frauds, not only by strangers, but also by abuse by their own relatives and children, especially financial abuse. Of course, the seniors themselves sometimes find themselves in a drug-and-alcohol misuse situation. They are concerned about transportation, how to move around, and generally about poverty
Let me focus on what the minister has said: enhanced wellness and sense of security of income for certain lucky and favoured seniors who happen to have lots of resources.
In our general sense, I like to focus on the price they pay sometimes in trying to accumulate all this wealth and all these assets that they give up moments precious in life of every person, so I would like to focus on their neglect of what I consider as an important part of life, namely, leisure for people.
What is leisure? Why do we need leisure time even in our work here, whether we are bordering on that category called seniors or not? What makes leisure pleasurable for us? Why do we have sometimes to attend social functions and other events in our life? When you are in the twilight of life in late adulthood or old age, why is leisure so useful for the quality of life, for a quality of existence that we enjoy?
In his book, Leisure in Your Life, Geoffrey Godbey defined leisure as living in relative freedom from external physical and cultural constraints so as to be able to act by internal love in ways both personally pleasing and intuitively worthwhile.
There are, at least, therefore, four aspects of leisure in our life, namely: the aspect of time, activity, attitude, and our own being.
Free time is a precondition to leisure. It may either be a voluntary free time, such as the time when a person voluntarily retires from employment or occupation, or it may be an involuntarily achieved free time if you are laid off work and become unemployed.
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Activity without necessity is another aspect of our leisure in our life. Time is related to activity, and any activity you do necessarily takes time. However, using free time to experience unknown events is not leisure, it is simply wanderlust, such as going out and exploring the rest of the world in a trip or something like that. Attitude is an aspect of leisure in one's belief that what one is doing is instinctively joyful so that one can let go of the self in the faith that the event will unfold as they should unfold all to the good.
Finally, our being, the end of our becoming, after a relatively free choice of a specific activity in life, is our own individual self-fulfilment. Leisure is a state of being, it is not mere recreation. Recreation is an idea that can be distinguished from leisure in our life, because recreation is simply a temporary, pleasurable activity such as a respite from work activity in order to refresh us, taking a holiday for a week and then coming back to work. That is temporary.
Why do we need leisure and why do we have leisure in society today? We know that our society prospered materially in terms of increased amount of goods and services produced by the economy. It does not necessarily follow that because we have more goods and services we necessarily have more and more leisure. It is a leisure that is enhanced if we take the proper opportunity by increasing productivity and by using more labour saving devices in our productive processes and by increasing our level of education and awareness, less physical fatigue in our jobs by means of appropriate work policy and of course by increasing discretionary or disposable income but, at the same time, we know that leisure is diminished by our insatiable greed for more and more. It is also accelerated in the rate of societal change taking place around us. We sometimes have to adjust and we have to give up our time for leisure.
Some people have to hold multiple jobs just to keep alive and take away from the time and therefore cannot enjoy any leisure time. Most of us oftentimes enjoy some kind of information overload that we cope with, that we are swamped by that information. We lack time for ourselves. Some people who are unlucky enough to be laid off of work become unemployed. They certainly have more free time if they are not working, but they lack the financial and educational resources in order to make meaningful use of involuntary time thrust upon them by being unemployed.
Even among those people who are educated, are able to do a specific task quickly and are able to do multiple tasks simultaneously, there are some people who can do two things at the same time. For example, some businessmen are driving their car and at the same time making deals on their cell phones. This is doing two things at the same time, and they are cutting idle time on their part.
Simple folks, however, in other areas of the world, in the nonindustrialized sector of the world, are able to combine their economic activities like fishing or harvesting with singing. While they are working they are harvesting and singing, they are group singing, they are laughing, they are enjoying. They have more leisure than us because they can find it even in the work situation. In the industrialized world we have to spend money to go to some other place like Florida or Jamaica in order to achieve some kind of leisure time.
What makes leisure pleasurable in life? A person's level of satisfaction in doing leisure activities is directly related to his own happiness as a person. If we ask a person for some reason why they engaged in their favourite activities, leisure activities, some of the answers we will get are the following: that they are doing it for the pleasure of doing it; that this is a welcome opportunity as a change of pace from their daily work routine; and that they have opportunity for contacts with their friends and relatives; and that leisure gives them kind of a new experience and makes life more interesting or they simply want to pass time and they enjoy doing so.
Engaging in leisure activity for the sheer pleasure of doing the activity means that there is some psychological appreciation and satisfaction by the mere passage of time in terms of personal perspective. This attitudinal perception of the sequence of events differs from person to person. A person who tends to race rapidly through all his activities through life also tends to do other things in a rather rushed, unleisurely way.
Leisure activities that a person does as a break period or a respite from the routine of work energizes him in order to be more refreshed when he comes back to work, and when leisure involves social contacts with friends and with acquaintances, including gossiping with friends, such experiences give a sense of freedom to the individual and give some sense of enjoyment doing what he is doing because we as human beings by nature are social beings. We cannot for a long time exist by ourselves alone. We have to talk with someone, and people talk sometimes too much on the phone, for example, that they forget that the phone is needed for other more essential purposes.
Leisure activities that provide new experiences, such as participating in tours of historical places or engaging in new sporting activities are there because of the excitement that they generate in the individual.
Finally, a mere passing of time in itself may give pleasure because of the serenity and inner peace that the person enjoys by just carefree time passing. Watching little robins, for example, chirp in the tree in your own backyard is apparently an idle passing of time, but if it gives you pleasure, it gives you an appreciation of what goes on in nature and the cyclical rhythm of the natural world, then it gives you real pleasure.
In our busy workaday world of our increasingly acquisitive and materialistic society, we sometimes trade away great opportunities for leisure just to earn more money, thinking that we will be able to afford later on some more sophisticated form of leisure activities, like going to some expensive place, without appreciating the fact that even simple things like watching the sunset or the flowers will give us leisure without expenses. Ironically, there are people who have lots and lots of discretionary income, but they simply run out of time to do the leisure activities in their life and, therefore, they do not have any time anymore to enjoy the pleasurable aspects of their life.
If there is a popular way of spending our free time, particularly among older adults and senior citizens, my guess is that it is television watching. Approximately about 40 percent of the free time of adults in North America is spent watching television.
Whether we are watching spectator sports or news, we thought that TV viewing is relatively inexpensive. Once you have the TV set, there is no more expenditure except to pay, of course, the monthly charges if you have cable privileges. Yet the more time we watch TV, the less time we have for other health-preserving leisure activities, like walking. Walking, itself, is a leisure activity. Even if you walk without any purposes, it rejuvenates your body, your physical body. You inhale more oxygen, and you enjoy the pleasure of walking, especially during pleasant times like we are having nowadays.
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Now, in late adulthood--the human being passes through many stages of life, like childhood, adolescence, adulthood and, finally, old age. Of course, in our youth, in our childhood, we are so absorbed by voluntary activities, but there are also many rules that are set for our play activities. Play is not part of real life, but we do it because children also want to have some fun.
In the adolescence stage, being a transition from childhood to adulthood, there is an uncertainly as to whether or not the teenager should behave as a child or as an adult. Uncertainty is the result of these contradictory tendencies. It is the stage of life where we desire more autonomy for ourselves, but at the same time, there are social strictures. We should obey our parents, we should obey our school authorities, and so on. So there are these contradictory demands, more autonomy, at the same time more constraints. That is why adolescents sometimes become rebellious against established order in the home or in the community. Adolescence also is the time when our sexual desire is most powerful, but it is also the time when the opportunities are the fewest.
When we reach the stage of adulthood in life, society accords the freedom that we seek as individuals. We say, now that I am an adult, I have the right to do what I want to do at the time that I want to do it, for example, the personal freedom to drive a car for pleasure. We say, well, I am an adult, I can afford a car. I want to buy a car. I want to drive at my own leisure time.
It is in late adulthood, during post-parental years when the children have already left home, that there is some noticeable changes in the attitudes and perspectives of adults, either as husband or as wife.
While the husband's sexual vigour is diminished in old age--not for all individuals, but for most of us, without any reference, this is general observation--with his head balding, with the stresses mounting as a result of children leaving the home, parents dying, the male crisis soon is overcome. The husband finds himself more and more dependent upon the wife, who becomes more and more managerial in the home and less and less sentimental.
Although the wife initially feels that she is neglected by children leaving home, she soon realizes that there is more freedom without children, and both husband and wife then gradually learn that in this post-parental stage of life, their economic resources are greater and their opportunities for leisure are better. They have many friends, and they realize they have many friends around them. Indeed, they may find physical and emotional well-being with friends, provided they are relatively healthy and they are free from serious illness of mind or of body. As human beings, our species evolved with changing values of society, changing environmental setting, that uniquely characterizes generations.
The older generation prefer leisure activities that cost very little. The middle generation often think that their leisure activities are their reward for their hard work in their life, while the young generation, who are becoming adult now, are able to spend more money on leisure, and they think that leisure is more meaningful to them the more money they spend.
In general, we all seek the full measure of life experiences, and, having more economic resources in old age, we could be happy in old age as we were happy in our youth. I think I would leave that subject because I do not want to indulge in that topic of leisure, but the only statement I want to make is that in our being engrossed with work activities and with responsibilities and with duties, and in our search for more and more resources and more and more assets, we should never, never neglect our own self, that we need some kind of leisure, pleasurable experience as adults, and we will not let the time pass without taking that opportunity for ourselves. All right? Now, let us ask important questions.
Mr. Chairperson: We thank the critic of the official opposition party for his opening remarks. At this time we invite the minister's staff to join us in the Chamber. We will be dealing with item 24.l. Seniors Directorate (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits.
Mr. Santos: May I ask an agreement with the honourable minister that I ask all the questions, and then we approve everything all at once.
Mr. Reimer: That is fine with me.
Mr. Chairperson: That is agreed, then we will just ask questions on an open basis. Does the honourable minister want to introduce his staff present, please?
Mr. Reimer: Yes, I would like to introduce my staff, my Seniors Directorate Ms. Kathy Yurkowski, and my Seniors policy director Dorothy Hill.
Mr. Chairperson: I thank the honourable minister.
Mr. Santos: We have a book here called Supplementary Information for Legislative Review 1998-99 Departmental Expenditure Estimates, Manitoba Seniors Directorate. On page 2 there, it specifies in print the role and mission of the Seniors Directorate. In the second paragraph--I will be very detailed about asking all these little specifics because of too many generalities in books of this nature. We would like to make it operational and meaningful.
It says and it reads: "The overall responsibilities of the Minister responsible for Seniors and the Seniors Directorate include," and then there is this enumeration, "representing the views of seniors and seniors' organizations to government."
Let us analyze that statement. How does the Seniors Directorate satisfy itself that the directorate is really representing the views of seniors and of seniors' organizations to government? How does it know?
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Mr. Reimer: It is something that I guess that we in the department take very seriously, and that is the overall consultations that we have with the various aspects of seniors, whether it is seniors' groups, seniors' organizations, and seniors' structures that we attend. When I say we, I mean not only myself but staff. My Seniors Directorate and my policy adviser will go to meetings upon request and also meetings that have been called for the specific idea of gathering information, for the specific idea of getting information, getting close to the community so that there is an understanding of what is required to bring forth, whether it is legislation or concerns to government, as to what seniors are talking about.
We also have a Council on Aging association that meets regularly, and that is made up of representatives from all parts of Manitoba. They act as an advisory council to the minister and to the directorate, and they bring forth another perspective. We also try to move them throughout the province, actually, in meetings so that the meetings are not always in Winnipeg but in other areas of the province so that there is a perspective brought in of the rural component and rural areas.
So we try to rely on a lot of contact physically with the various seniors' associations. I try to get out to as many seniors' functions as I can on a personal basis, whether it is a social tea or an annual meeting or something that they are organizing. I like to go to them in their setting so that there is a comfort and a feeling of expression that they do not have the formality of coming to my office to express their views. So it is a process that we feel works very well, and any way that there is a way to make contact with seniors' groups, we will explore those areas.
Mr. Santos: The honourable minister mentioned the Manitoba Society of Seniors, but there are also other seniors' organizations. Can the honourable minister identify some of the other ones other than the Manitoba Society of Seniors?
Mr. Reimer: I only mentioned them as one, but the member is right, there are numerous seniors' groups. For example, there is a group in Brandon called Seniors for Seniors that I have met with. I have been to seniors' associations in Portage la Prairie, in Beausejour, in Binscarth, Russell, Thompson, the seniors' centres Creative Retirement. We have met with the resource councils, the friendly one in North Kildonan, what is that one called? Good Neighbours club.
Also, just recently I had the opportunity to attend the annual meeting for the society for the French association of seniors. I have been involved and invited to some of the, as the member knows, the Philippine association of seniors. So I try to get to as many as I can. I have been invited to various ethnic seniors' groupings.
We are blessed in Manitoba that we have very, very active seniors' groups that get together on a fairly frequent basis in a lot of places throughout not only Winnipeg but Manitoba. A lot of them are very active, membership is quite high, participation is quite high. So these have become very, very valuable resources for us as a sense of outreach to them and, also, more importantly, as a very positive function in communities, not only in the city but, like I say, in some of the rural small towns, seniors' organizations have been very active in some of the church basements and community halls in some of the small towns. They have vans, Handi-Transit vans, that will go out and pick up people, and they have become a real focus of activity almost on a daily basis where there is something happening in some of these senior centres. So I compliment them quite openly on their aggressiveness, for the volunteers and the tremendous resource that we have in the community.
The senior volunteers play a very, very important role in Manitoba's lifestyle, and they should be recognized and thanked as many times as we can.
Mr. Santos: Does the Seniors Directorate keep a computerized listing of all these organizational names of seniors, their locations, their phone numbers and other information?
Mr. Reimer: Yes.
Mr. Santos: I do not have such a list. Would the minister be gracious enough to provide me with such a list?
Mr. Reimer: We can make that available to the member.
Mr. Santos: The second point there in Role and Mission states: "providing a central source of information for the public on government programs and community-based services available to seniors." Now the first part of that mentions government programs. What are some of the specific government programs that the Seniors Directorate could provide information about to seniors and seniors' organizations being the central source of information?
Mr. Reimer: Some of the things in regard to government programs that we get requests on from the public or from the seniors' groups, some of them have to do with housing components, housing questions. We get calls on pensions, and that is usually in relation to the federal pension, the CPP and general assistance pensions. We sometimes get calls on the taxes that seniors are involved with, to get some information; the 55 Plus program; we get some phone calls on regarding transportation. We get some calls on the SAFER program, which is the Shelter Allowance for Elderly Renters. We get calls on seniors' events. People will phone us and want to know where we have things happening.
One of the things we have just come out with is the new seniors' guide, and that has also got a listing of approximately--oh, I do not know how many entries are in there of various components that the people can go to find information on. It is available not only in English but in French, and that has become very, very popular, the Senior Citizens' Handbook. We have just had it printed, and already we have had very strong response from it, from the community in acceptance. So a lot of those things we make available to the seniors on an ongoing basis.
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Mr. Santos: There are at least three levels of government in Canada: the federal, the provincial and the city or municipal level. Of course, correspondingly, there will be three different kinds of government programs: federal, provincial, civic or municipal. Where the program of government is one of federal government or of municipal level of government, is the directorate concerned about such other programs?
Mr. Reimer: I should point out to the member that a lot of times when we do get requests from seniors, they are wanting to, you know, get the answer in a sense, and we go the extra mile, if you want to call it, in trying to accommodate the requests for the seniors. If it is something that is not within our jurisdiction, as the member mentioned, it may be federal jurisdiction or municipal jurisdiction, we do have an interrelationship with the other departments of the other two levels of government so that there is an update and a knowledge of what is happening, so that if the senior phones us we are able to redirect them or, in a lot of cases, we are able to give them the information because of our contact with the other departments to make sure that person is satisfied.
We try to accommodate the senior in a way that that senior does not have to continually shop through the system in trying to get the answer. We try to be a one-stop shopping area so that we can give him or her that information. So it means a lot of times co-ordinating with, as the member mentioned, the other two levels of government to find out what their programs are and how we can really utilize their resources too. So we try to make it as easy as possible, when the senior phones or makes an inquiry, to give him or her that information.
Mr. Santos: In other words, the Seniors Directorate is also acting as a referral unit to direct the inquirer to the proper person who has the information.
Mr. Reimer: Yes, that is right.
Mr. Santos: Would it not be more efficient in the course of the operation of the Seniors Directorate that all these frequently inquired programs of other levels of government be also kept in your database, the information, the sources and all those things, so that there will be no more referrals?
Mr. Reimer: The member is pointing in a direction that we have seen that there is a need to address these programs. This is one of the reasons that when we were at the national Seniors ministers meeting earlier this year that was one of the items that was up for discussion, and it created a fair amount of discussion, good discussion, from all the other ministers across Canada, this co-ordination of information into a central database type of thing so that we can all access it. That is one thing that we are working on, and we do see that it is a very positive initiative that we hope to have in place by the end of this year, possibly into the new year. Because the gathering of information and anytime there is a source of information that can be utilized from not only Manitoba but from, say, Nova Scotia it can only be of a benefit for us to utilize. So that is one of the recommendations that came out of the Seniors ministers conferences that we had earlier this year.
I am quite optimistic that we should have that up and running and have it quite ready for utilization. It will save a lot of time in trying to outsource a lot of information, plus it also will eliminate the need to reinvent programs, if you want to call it, when we know that there is a program that is similar to something that we may want to initiate that has been run in Alberta or something, and we can just access the database and get the program that way. So the utilization of information is always very beneficial to our government.
Mr. Santos: Relating to the Seniors ministerial conference, how long had this conference been going on, as far as the minister knows?
Mr. Reimer: Since 1992, there have been four ministerial conferences. I have had the opportunity to be at two of them. The idea is to have them on a yearly basis, in a cyclical manner. I believe they are working on one already for next year for June or July. We are trying to do these on a yearly basis.
Mr. Santos: So this will become an annual Seniors ministers' conference?
Mr. Reimer: Yes, that is right.
Mr. Santos: Is there a permanent secretariat that keeps all the records of these conferences in some central location?
Mr. Reimer: Yes, the federal government, I guess, would be the central link between all the provinces in co-ordinating the meetings. They are usually the co-hosts of the ministerial meetings. The meeting last time, I believe, was in Prince Edward Island--[interjection] Oh, pardon me, in Victoria, British Columbia, and the federal government co-hosted that one. So the next time, if it is in, say, Newfoundland, then it will be co-hosted by the federal government and the minister for Newfoundland. The central host is the federal government, so they would be the ones that would keep the continuity of the meetings and the correspondence and that.
Mr. Santos: Aside from the federal government, which is also only one government, there are so many provincial governments that could possibly be hosting this conference. Does it mean that the archives of the conference are scattered to the different hosts, depending on who hosted what conference?
Mr. Reimer: No. Every province would get a copy of the meetings and the minutes that would transpire. So we in Manitoba, though we may not host the meeting, would still be part of the minutes and the meetings, and we would have copies and access to all meetings. So it is just that when I refer to the hosts, I mean, the federal government is part of every annual meeting. The provinces may be different, but the minutes go to each province whether they are the host or not.
An Honourable Member: En français, s'il vous plaît.
Mr. Reimer: Mais oui.
Mr. Santos: Mr. Chairperson, what I am asking really is whether the conference, of which there have been four already, as far as the minister recalls, whether they have developed a permanent bureaucracy, a secretariat of its own, distinguishable from the federal government.
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Mr. Reimer: I do not know whether it can be classified as a permanent bureaucracy. I think what it is is that there is a group of my senior staff, like my Seniors Directorate here, that will meet two or three times a year with the various seniors directorates, if you want to call it, or senior personnel in the various governments from across Canada to co-ordinate meetings and items of commonality that they want to bring up at the annual meetings. It is not a formal structure in a sense that it is a department, but it is part of my department that will intermingle with other parts of the other departments to come up with agendas and schedules and items that should be brought forth for the agenda. So they do meet two or three times, maybe, a year in formulating the agenda for the meeting for the ministers, but it is not a formal, bureaucratic organization in that sense.
Mr. Santos: It does not need to be an extensive organization. All I am asking is whether the conference itself has its own executive director that will be the co-ordinating person who will contact all the other permanent officials of the various seniors directorates, whatever their name may be, in all the jurisdictions in order to set the time, place and conference and things like that, whether there is one office or one official doing all this co-ordinating function.
Mr. Reimer: I guess maybe the best way to try to answer the question is that there is a body or a central body, in a sense, made up of the officials that I referred to regarding my Seniors Directorate from our government and possibly other people in our department, but the co-ordination of it all is sometimes handled by the federal government by utilizing their resources in co-ordinating the meetings, but when the meetings are formulated sometimes they will be part of the discussions and they may not be. It depends on the topic that they are trying to pursue and some of the items that they feel should be brought up at the agenda so it sounds--I should not say it that way, but there is a certain informality of the structure. It is still functional in that there is a common goal to try to get the various agenda items and agreement on the agenda items and working that way, so that when there is a meeting called it is not a big long clothesline list of items. Most of the items are down to maybe half a dozen items of discussion, and that is what we usually will concentrate on when we do get together.
So the committee itself or the members themselves will do a lot of the structural formatting, so that when we do get together we are not talking about everything. We are talking about the most important things that the various provinces have brought forth to talk about, so I think that that is maybe the best way to explain it.
Mr. Santos: So the federal government designates a federal official or personnel for a particular year to co-ordinate. Who keeps the records? Where is it kept? And how is continuity preserved?
Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, I am getting a lot of help here from around the table. Everybody is trying to help me.
Just like there is a Seniors staff here in Manitoba, federally there is also that office of a Seniors Directorate or a Seniors staffperson who is responsible for seniors. It is presently under the Health department, and that person is, you know, in that department. That person, he or she, would be the person who would be the contact through the federal government, so that there is a structure in the federal government similar to ours in recognition and a profile on seniors. So just as we have it here in Manitoba, the federal government has it on a national scene, and each province has some sort of component of a recognition of seniors within their government. It may not be in the Health department, particularly.
In some provinces they have it affiliated with other departments. In fact, I think, if I recall the last meeting, one of the ministers was also the Minister of Municipal Affairs and she was the Minister of Seniors also. So there is always, within each province, a component that is geared towards the seniors of that particular province. That office there would be the continuity of meetings and files and recordkeeping and the planning of directions, so that continuity would stay the same. The politicians may change, but the departments would stay.
Mr. Santos: This is in fact the genius of our system. There are two levels: the political segment, changing all the time; and the career personnel--
An Honourable Member: No, no. This is not changing all the time, Conrad. You have that wrong. We have been here for 10 years and another 10 years are coming.
Mr. Santos: Well, the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) knows that nobody knows the future, and therefore--
An Honourable Member: And he has been here for 60 years.
An Honourable Member: Well, I have been here for a while, Conrad, and I am not moving yet.
Mr. Santos: He should not be speaking with too much presumption.
Mr. Chairperson, given that the population of seniors in this province alone is, according to the minister, 13.6 percent of the population now and in 40 years time it will be probably double--the projection is at about 24 percent or something--one quarter of the population will be seniors. Would it not be better that there is a contribution from the federal government and a contribution from the various provincial governments establishing a permanent secretariat that is concerned solely with the concerns, interests and problems of senior citizens all across Canada? May the honourable minister take the leadership on that point when he attends the conference. Maybe he can take me along.
Mr. Reimer: The member never ceases to amaze me with his suggestions and his directions. They are worthy of consideration and I commend him for his insight.
Mr. Santos: The mere fact is that even the federal government, with all its vast resources, is still at that stage where Seniors is a puny little section of the mammoth Health department, whereas in Manitoba we have established a Seniors Directorate all its own. It used to be part of Health, but now we have evolved faster than the federal government. Maybe the honourable minister will show that kind of leadership when he attends the next conference. Would he be able to do that?
Mr. Reimer: I share that enthusiasm with the member. I think that seniors should have a more prominent display and position within the various levels of government in recognizing not only their portion of the population, but, more importantly, their contribution to this wellness and this great province and this great country that we live in. Profiling seniors is one thing that we feel very, very proud of here in Manitoba.
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Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair
In fact, I am sure the member will ask me a few questions on it, but I will pre-empt him a bit on the tremendous excitement, I think, there is in the year 1999, where we will be celebrating the International Year of Older Persons here in Manitoba. I know that here in Manitoba there will be numerous events and functions and organizations that will come forth to showcase our wonderful contributions that seniors have put into this province. This is an excellent way to showcase seniors. Maybe, as the member has indicated, we should try to profile them even more on a national level, so there is this recognition that they are a very, very vital and a very, very important part and component of this wonderful way of life that we enjoy in this province and this country. So I have very little to argue with the member on his points.
Mr. Santos: Now that the minister has accepted this basic idea, maybe the year 1999 can be the initiation year for this kind of organization where all the records of all the seniors' activities all across the provinces are kept in one place, all the programs, all the benefits, all the duties and responsibilities kept by one executive director. Therefore, it will be easier to give information of whatever nature that is requested by senior citizens.
Mr. Reimer: I think that we are, in a way, headed that way with our direction in trying to compile information sources and data gathering on a national basis, and that certainly is one step in the right way to put more of a profile on the seniors and their importance. These are some of things that I think, as they develop and grow, if anything, once the awareness is there, the profile can be enhanced to some degree. This is something that maybe we should work upon.
Mr. Santos: Is the honourable minister amenable to the idea of initiating a project whereby all these provinces, even the richest ones like Ontario and Alberta and B.C., will be induced to contribute towards the development of this kind of structure?
Mr. Reimer: I think that we are in that direction. We are working on that way right now with a lot of the initiatives that we are undertaking at the present time. I look forward to the finalization of the model regarding the gathering of information, and that may be indeed a model to expand and to work forth.
It would possibly be a bit premature for me to speculate as to how far we can go with it, but I do know that, once there is a gathering of information and the sharing of information, it will make it a lot easier for us to plot directions and to look at possible better solutions to working with the seniors. Indeed, this may prove to be a very, very beneficial first catalyst in bigger and better things, in getting more of a profile, as the member mentioned, for seniors or a seniors directorate. I think these are some of things that we can look optimistically at in saying that, with the information co-ordinating project that we are working on, and with the fact that we feel we will have this in place possibly or have it available by the end of the year, an evaluation should not take too much longer after that.
Mr. Santos: With this age of computerization of data and database building and the Internet and computer links, how difficult would it be to organize such a central source of information all across Canada?
Mr. Reimer: I think the member can look at what we are trying to do here in Manitoba within our own government in trying to centralize all our computer database under one envelope at the present time and the task it is taking. The member is right, with computerization and database and the Internet and all that stuff, the access to information has become instantaneous, but I think that what has to be co-ordinated a lot of times is the input and the direction of programming so that there is a compatibility of programs and the security of information and things like that that have to be acknowledged between the provinces. A lot of times one of the hardest things to get established is an understanding between provinces. The member is aware that sometimes it is easier to trade in the area of commerce between the United States or to the world than it is to trade with our neighbour right next to us, which is either Saskatchewan or Ontario.
But in the gathering of information, with the advent of change, these things, the barriers are coming down very, very fast. I would think that it should not be that long before there is a standardization of programming between all provinces. That is one of the things that we are working on so that the programming can be standardized whether it is in Newfoundland or in British Columbia and at any time you can tie into it. So that is a program that is being developed or is being worked on. I guess it is like anything. Time is of the essence, and we feel that hopefully we can have this done by the end of the year with all provinces.
Mr. Santos: Information by itself is not so useful if it is exclusive to one particular user. Information is useful if it is shared by everyone. What kind of security should we be concerned about when information that it will provide will be useful to the citizens?
Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, with the gathering of information, one of the things that we did talk about at the ministers' meeting was that just as it is important to share information between the provinces and the various seniors directorates, seniors' organization in our province, one of the things that we have asked the gatherers of information to consider too is making it available to the public so that the public can also tie into this programming and tie into what is happening, you know, like I say, whether it is in Nova Scotia or Saskatchewan, and that is another component that we feel should be part of the information programming.
I know that it sounds simple when we talk about how you can Internet and talk to Australia from here, and why cannot we get this thing up and going right now? But I am told, and I think I share the concerns that are not only from Manitoba but other provinces, that getting it done sometimes just takes a little bit longer than the direction. This is one of the things we are trying to work on in a most expedient manner but, at the same time, we feel that we can still get, should have it ready possibly by the end of the year.
I am not that totally familiar with programming and working with computers myself, so I can only speculate that the people that are working on it are working on it expeditiously and trying to get it accomplished.
Mr. Santos: If the conference has been called by the federal government and somebody in the Health department federally is in charge and that somebody is later on concerned with other problems other than Seniors, of course, it will take long. But if there is one particular executive director agreed to and appointed by the conference where all the provinces are represented and the federal government is represented, and its only concern is this particular objective, so that it will coincide with the 1999 year of--what do you call it--the old person, then it will be really not so difficult to achieve.
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Mr. Reimer: Yes, I cannot argue with the member. I think that we are anxious to try to get it going as fast as we can too and getting the information in there and the compilation of it all. I can only reiterate that the people are working on it, and we are very optimistic that by the end of the year we will have this up and going so that we can tap into it, like the member says, for 1999.
I do not know what more we can do here in Manitoba other than supply the information that is requested from us on a very timely manner, which we have done. The requests we have fulfilled are ongoing, and we can only be one part of a 11-part puzzle, a 12-part puzzle, I guess, pardon me.
Mr. Santos: If they are targeting the year 1999, then it is time now in the next conference to project this idea that there should be one office across nationally who will be in charge of the project; otherwise, it will not be officially done if it is ad hockery that is going on, depending on who is hosting what. If only one puny little official in the federal department is seconded to do that particular job for a particular period of time only during the conference, and there is no stability of information, no continuity, maybe the honourable minister will be the mouthpiece of this idea in the next conference. Would he be able to undertake that one?
Mr. Chairperson in the Chair
Mr. Reimer: It is an ongoing committee that is compiling the information. We do not envision it as a one-time-only type of endeavour, because I think if anything it is a growing program, because there will always be programs that are being added to. There would always be improvements or modifications. There will always be the room for additions and possibly even deletions of programs as they possibly work their way out of the system.
So I do not see this as a one-time-only thing. We do not envision this either. We see this as an ongoing source of information for not only sourcing information but to update information and to put in more information so that there is a continuous sharing of information. So it is an ongoing, it is a growing program, if you want to call it. It is certainly not a one-shot affair and then it is closed down.
The continuity would continue because, as the member mentioned, on the political level we may change, but on the organizational structure and the bureaucracy structure, that structure will stay in place. So that will continue to keep the programming and the information feeding into the system. So I see this as an ongoing process and not just a gathering of information on a one-time basis. I think that maybe clarifies it for the member.
Mr. Santos: It is still not too clear for this member. There have been four conferences of Seniors ministers. Is the person who was in charge of the first conference the person also in charge of the second conference, the third conference and the fourth conference, as if he were the executive director of the conference, or is it a different person at different times?
Mr. Reimer: I was just getting some history on the committee, and actually the committee has been around a long time. The member has mentioned four years or four meetings, but the seniors' committee and the directorate have been around for almost 10 years. So it has been an ongoing continuity of people and philosophy within the department. There may have been some attrition in the department--in the departments, I should say--but the overall philosophy has been there, and it continues to be part of the directorate. So it is not as if it was just formed four years ago when the meetings started. It has been around for quite a few years. It is like any department. The philosophy of the department will stay, even though there may be some minor changes of personnel or people retiring or leaving or something of that nature. So the continuity has stayed there, even though, as I mentioned before, it may be only four years since we have had meetings.
Mr. Santos: If that is the case, what committee is the minister talking about then? Who constitutes the committee? Who are the members of the committee?
Mr. Reimer: I guess there was always the minister and a staffperson that have gone to these meetings, minister or staff, I should say, so that each province would have the minister and the staff going. The constant among all meetings has been staff. So ministers may change, but the staff and the philosophy would stay the same. That would continue to go through from meeting to meeting. So I may be the Minister of Seniors this year, and next year who knows, but the staff and the continuity of the philosophy would still stay the same as it moves through to these meetings. So I guess staff is the continuity that goes to the meetings.
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Mr. Santos: As generally is the case, politicians come and go. The office stays the same. The person occupying the office changes. The same thing with the staff, but the staff generally are not subject to the hassles of not being elected or things like that of an uncertain nature. Generally they have tenure in the civil service. This is staff people. You are saying these are the ones who are co-ordinating all these meetings all the time. What I am asking is whether among themselves--they report of course to different jurisdictions. What I am talking about is like comparable to the executive director, let us say, of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. They have a single office, they have a single archive, single library, and a single address, not an address changing depending on who is hosting the conference.
Mr. Reimer: I guess one of the ways to explain it is that there is an organizational component that is made up of the staff into various committees. What they will do is the co-ordination of the various meetings; they would be the continuity of meetings, the staff and the functions that they would provide through the committee formations, so that as topics for discussion would come up or areas of concern, the committees would be the ones that would sort of direct the ministers through the meetings as to what topics should be covered.
So it is an ongoing process in the sense that they do meet, like I mentioned, two or three times a year. The provinces rotate. It is just like all meetings. Every province wants to be a host or a co-host from time to time. We hosted it back in 1994. We were the host province at that time, and at that time it was the Honourable Gerry Ducharme who was the Minister of Seniors. So he was the co-host with the federal minister at that time.
But it was all co-ordinated through the seniors directorates and, you know, here in Winnipeg or Manitoba we were the co-hosts, so we got involved with the planning of events and functions, the various components of entertainment and food for the conference, and things like that. So it was something that each province would get involved with. The federal government would naturally be part of it again. They are part of the plenary systems to bring forth, you know, what they feel should be on the agenda. There is a continuity.
I know what the member is referring to regarding the Canadian Parliamentary Association. I am not that familiar with it, but I think that they work similarly, to a degree, because they move their meetings from province to province also. They also have co-hosts, you know, the minister of the host province along with the Speaker of the House from Ottawa would be the central figures, if you want to call it, for that meeting. It is the staff within their organizations that do all the legwork and get things organized, similar to what we do through the Seniors Directorate. So there is a similarity between what the member is mentioning regarding the Parliamentary Association and this one. It is a very good parallel, because they would work similarly to what we do in moving it around. I believe this year it is in Ontario, so the Speaker of the House for Ontario would be the co-host along with the Ottawa Speaker of the House and whoever would go would be--but the organization would still happen within the staff as a staff function. That is what we do, too, here with the Seniors Directorate.
Mr. Santos: This parallel at least does acknowledge that the hosting can take place from province to province, along with Ottawa's co-host. But, in addition, the Parliamentary Association had their own executive office, executive director, concerned exclusively with parliamentary matters, unlike a particular co-host province or Ottawa for itself, just a secondment from one of their officials in the Health department. There is no particular organization quite separate from the conference itself. The secretariat has an independent office.
This is the idea that I am trying to impart to the honourable minister. When he attends the next conference, maybe he can bring that up as a discussion among all ministers, that they should establish an executive director and a permanent office, given the importance of the senior segment of the Canadian population.
Mr. Reimer: The member is bringing up a good suggestion in a sense of bringing more recognition or profile to the seniors because of the fact that, as he has mentioned, the population is growing, the percentage is growing. It is something that is worthy of possibly exploring a little further. We do have the availability to do a better analysis of it with this compilation of information, because I feel that should give us a lot of good emphasis and good knowledge as to what is happening right across Canada in all our programming, and where the emphasis should be and how we can interrelate and help each other in getting better programs not only for Manitoba but for the people of Nova Scotia who may be able to benefit from our information.
It is that type of philosophy of co-ordination and co-operation between the various governments that I think we can build upon. Once we start to formulate a more accurate co-ordination of information and sharing of information, that, as the member has mentioned, is maybe some way we start to look at that type of direction regarding a more formal structure for getting meetings and co-ordination between the levels of government. I look forward to receiving the information, so that, when we do start to do some more critical analyzing when the next meeting is coming up next year sometime with the Seniors ministers, possibly I will have a better position to be a more strong advocate for that type of philosophy.
Mr. Santos: If the honourable minister bases his argument in the conference on fact-based information, factual and projections, population projection, I do not think he will have any difficulty persuading the other provinces that there is a need for a national executive director for Seniors quite separate from the federal government, because this will be a co-operative venture by all the provinces in partnership with the federal government, acting independently on its own for the interests of seniors all across Canada. It will be a secretariat of the conference, so to speak. Even if co-ordination may vary from year to year, depending on who is hosting, it will be channelled through that particular office. There will be one address people can write to and inquire information from. There will be one centre of information of all the available programs of government all across Canada for the benefit and for the interests of senior citizens.
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Mr. Reimer: I think, as I mentioned before to the member, that the gathering of information and the availability of information is something that can only be of benefit to everybody in trying to come to directions for decision making. It is with that in mind--this is one of the reasons why we in Manitoba have been quite upfront in trying to go after this type of direction in the assimilation of information. We are of the opinion, too, that once there is this network, or this linking, of provinces through the programing that we will be able to localize it in a sense of people wanting information through Manitoba.
I think that the seniors would rather work through an office here, whether it is in Winnipeg or Dauphin or Beausejour or through an 800 number here in Manitoba, and get a made- in-Manitoba type of solution for their problems. Granted, there are problems that possibly are national in scope and wider in their parameters, and those are some of the things that would affect seniors. I think that the home-grown solution, a made-in-Manitoba solution, is something that we would be very proud of, not only as the member for Broadway, but as the member for Niakwa, so that Manitoba can boast of its own programing and what is the availability for seniors here in Manitoba, plus make available for informational resource programs, that people may want to know what is happening in other areas.
So I would hope that once the information and the gathering of information is available, it will put even more focus on what we can do to try to help our Manitoba seniors, and that they would look to us as the resource, instead of Ottawa, because a lot of times in dealing with someone down the road, the home-grown solution usually is not what is applicable. So we would look at these programs but try to put a Manitoba flavour into it, so that we could localize it, or utilize it, and adapt it so people here in Manitoba would be of the benefit, and can look at the program through their eyes, if you want to call it, in making it work better. So I think that we would look at information gathering through that type of effort instead of trying to nationalize everything, in a sense of trying to broaden the scope so that it fits everybody.
There are programs that will fit everybody. There is no doubt about it. I think a lot of the things have to be brought down to a Manitoba flavour, and I think that is the way we would look at trying to utilize and gather information.
Mr. Santos: In a survey of longevity, one of the findings was that people who live in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, generally the west, live longer; they are healthier than the rest of the population. Given that factual information, would it not be our moral responsibility here in the west maybe to start such a kind of central location of new information for seniors, like new discoveries by gerontologists, by scientists effecting medicines and cures and prolonging life, all this information that justifies the creation of an independent unit, quite separate from the federal government itself, who will of course cosponsor all these conferences, but the output from all the conferences will be localized in a particular place.
The storage of information will be accessible nationally. Although, of course, each province will have its own subset of its own peculiar problems and peculiar solutions, there will still be a central information from which this can be obtained by anybody interested. Would it not be a better system than every year trying to co-ordinate the conference in one location and then the next year another conference and another co-ordinating effort when it could have been a permanent kind of administrative task, quite routine for this secretariat that I am trying to envision for the honourable minister to discuss and bring forth in such conferences.
Mr. Reimer: I think that, like I mentioned before, the gathering of information is an ongoing process. I think that it is something that we can utilize. I would not look at it as being a one-time-only type of utilization of information. I would look at it as a growing factor and that the sharing of it would be continuous. As we get new programs or we get exposed to new programs through some of our seniors groups throughout Manitoba and Winnipeg and they come up with some new ideas or some new programs, I think that these are the types of things that we would want to share with our neighbours and make them more aware of how we are doing things. Just as we are doing it, we would hope that the seniors groups or the seniors associations in other parts of Canada are also utilizing the database so that we can tap into what they are doing and we can sort of modify it to a Manitoba flavour and utilize it that way.
As for the idea of the sharing of ideas, it is always more informational when ministers do get together on a face-to-face basis to share information. I can only relate to a ministers meeting I just came back from regarding housing. It was very, very informative. On a one-to-one meeting with various ministers, you get a totally different type of approach and aspect as to what they are facing and how they are facing their challenges when you talk to them on an individual basis. So there is a tremendous benefit in the one-on-one confrontations or meetings with some of our cohorts and our counterparts from across Canada. You slowly realize that a lot of the problems are the same, but a lot of times the solutions and the way you get to them are different. That is where you benefit from.
So I look forward to a lot of the various meetings that we have to go to. Sometimes we complain about meetings, but you usually come out of it with a better sense of direction and a new approach to doing things. I think that the more that you can do these in a very constructive manner, the better it is in getting involved with your decision making. So I think that the way we have it set up in the sense of working with the database, going with a ministerial meeting possibly on a yearly basis, I look forward to these occasions and, hopefully, you know, we bring back some betterments that we can incorporate for Manitoba seniors.
Mr. Santos: We are still on mission No. 2 here. I just thought of the idea of extending that central source of information which is talking about government programs here in Manitoba on a national scale. It is just the model being projected on a national level. Now, there is a second component in the second mission here about the central source of information about community-based services here in Manitoba for seniors. So there is also a central single source of information for all these community-based services in this province available for seniors. Can the minister elaborate what he meant by community-based services, give an example of it?
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Mr. Edward Helwer, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair
Mr. Reimer: I guess when we talk about community-based services, it revolves a lot of what I had said earlier regarding the centres in the community, the senior centres that we have around Manitoba. We have the support services for seniors, we have the resource drop-in centres. We have, I think one of the things, one of the community-based services is Meals on Wheels, that type of program. These are a lot of the things that I am referring to in that second line that the member is referring to.
Mr. Santos: I thank the honourable minister for that clarification and for that example. This Meals on Wheels, that is a private organization or a public one?
Mr. Reimer: The reference to Meals on Wheels is something, I think, that a lot of us are aware of. It has really served as a very, very valuable resource for seniors. It is strictly a volunteer program that people spend of their time taking meals around, calling on people, delivering meals. It usually comes out of a kitchen which is possibly even part of a seniors centre, a resource centre, that they will make the meals, the meals will come out of church kitchens. They have got involved with Meals on Wheels, but it has proven to be very, very popular, and it is a real source of involvement for a lot of seniors, not only to supply meals to seniors but for seniors helping seniors because that is usually who it is.
A lot of seniors will volunteer their time and their effort and their hospitality to drive and to drop off meals and be part of a regular route that they go on through various parts of the city.
I have talked to quite a few drivers. They are very proud of what they do, and they are very proud of who they serve and who they drop in to serve and who they drop into see and talk to. They set up quite a network of friends and communications through the Meals on Wheels program, so it has proven to be very beneficial not only, like I say, to supply meals to seniors, but it also serves as a very, very valuable source of activity for seniors. A lot of the delivery is made by seniors who voluntarily give of their time and their money because it costs them money to ride around in their cars delivering the meals, so it is a very strong humanitarian effort by a lot of people and it serves an awful lot of good.
Mr. Santos: It appears to me there are many roles in that kind of service-providing activity-- meals provider, the driver, deliverer of meals, and the meals consumer, the one who eats the meal. Where do the meals providers get their resources to cook the meals? Do they get supplies anywhere or is it their own resources, is it a church or any other charitable organization?
Mr. Reimer: The ones that I have had the opportunity to visit are usually set up by nonprofit organizations or volunteer associations. I know from when I referred earlier to church basements I meant church organizations. I have seen those provide meals on wheels to certain sectors in certain areas of the city that they sort of block off, if you want to call it, as their--through the communities.
A lot of the funds are raised in the community, and some of the people that received the meals do pay for a certain cost of the meal. So it is not an exorbitant rate, but it does pay for some of the meal costs. So there is a collection of fees, not only for the people that receive the meal, but through the community drives, and the United Way funding is allocated to these various organizations and nonprofit associations. So they seem to manage themselves quite well, and it has proven to be very, very popular, but there is a little bit of money raised here and there and everything, and it keeps the program moving and expanding too.
Mr. Santos: So is there one network of Meals on Wheels, or are there many little coteries of Meals on Wheels depending on the number of organizations providing such meals?
Mr. Reimer: Yes, I think the member has more or less answered his own question in the sense that there is not one overall program. It is called Meals on Wheels, but a lot of various associations take their proportion of it and will supply the meals within their certain area. So there is a myriad, as he mentioned, of associations, and they will supply within a certain block or a certain radius or a certain building that they have adopted in a sense as their program area.
I do not know the number of Meals on Wheels programs there are because there is not only Meals on Wheels here in Winnipeg. A lot of the rural areas, they are even having them, the towns. Brandon I know has it. Selkirk has it. A lot of the towns are setting them up on a volunteer basis. A lot of them we do not even hear about, in a sense, because it is not a central monitoring, you know, the program that they get involved with. So it is a need. People recognize the need. They get together and they start to supply the meals to these seniors, so a lot of even the little, small towns in rural areas will supply the meals.
Mr. Santos: Given that there are many organizations in many different areas, and the Seniors Directorate does not even know of some of them, do you keep a record of all these organizations in your database, their names, their addresses, their contact person?
Mr. Reimer: I may have said something and misinterpreted when I was looking at my notes, but we do have a record of the Meals on Wheels programs. There is a record available that says where these programs are being offered. So we do keep a record of it.
Mr. Santos: Do they get any kind of government assistance or aids or grants in money or in other form from any department of government?
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Mr. Reimer: There are various components of supplying meals to seniors. There is the Meals on Wheels that I mentioned, and there is also a congregate meal program that seniors can take advantage of where seniors will go to a location, a seniors' home or a seniors' hall or something, and meals will be made available there. There is, as I mentioned, a fee associated with the meals. It is not a free program in the sense that these people get the food for free.
There is some government funding through the congregate meal program where the various associations may have the availability of government funding. As I say, a lot of the programs are run by the nonprofit associations, sometimes churches and various associations like that, and they will get involved with the funding through various programs like that. I guess in an indirect way that there is government funding that is involved. We have staff who are involved with some of that congregate meal program and things like that. Yes, there is some government funding involved.
Mr. Santos: We are now taking a variant of that provision for meals, you call it congregate meals, and this one is sponsored by voluntary organizations or by government agencies?
Mr. Reimer: These are provided by the resource councils, and these are usually, as I say, in the building where seniors will gather and the seniors will literally come to that building for their meal. The meal will not go to them. They will come to the building.
Mr. Santos: Let us take a specific example. Let us take 185 Smith Street. That is a building. It is also a housing complex, some seniors. I understand there are some who are not seniors, although originally designed to be a seniors' complex. When they request a congregate meal, what happens? Who arranges it? Who finances it? Who benefits from it?
Mr. Reimer: The discussion that I was just having was regarding 185 Smith. Because it is also under my portfolio as Minister of Housing, I am fairly familiar with it. I know that Age and Opportunity are the ones that occupy some of that building, and they put on programs for seniors in and around the area. One of the things that they are trying to set up is a congregate meal program. They have not as yet set up a program in that building, and it is something that they would be responsible for. They would be the provider of setting it up and charging the fees that are nominal or whatever they feel is reasonable. That would be more or less a process that I think that maybe the member is referring to, of who sets it up. A lot of times it is an association or a group of people who will want to run it out of a church basement or a hall or something like that or, as he mentioned, 185 Smith. They will get involved with it that way.
Mr. Santos: Take another setting, let us say a rural area, and let us say a church congregation. They want to sponsor a congregational meal for the senior citizens in their own community. Is the church the one that will provide all the personnel who will do the cooking, all the serving? What is the help from the government, the Seniors Directorate in that regard?
Mr. Reimer: If it is in a rural area like the member is referring to, the local church that wants to support it, they would be the ones that would physically be onsite doing the preparing of the meal and the serving of the meal and getting the advertisement of getting the people there and a lot of times even arranging for the transportation. So they would be the sole provider for it.
They do have the ability to make application to the regional health authority. There is what they call the support services grant, which will cover sometimes the cost of a cook or a co-ordinator or something like that. So they will sometimes go look at that area for some partial funding.
But it is surprising how a lot of them will just do it out of the Christianity or the good, the humanitarianism, of the community, and just do it on themselves and make it happen. A lot of them are like that. They just set it up on a three-meal-a-week type of program or something along those lines, and it becomes very popular, and the seniors do not mind paying. They do not mind paying the small stipend because it gives them a social evening; it gives them an evening of--possibly even they tie in some games or some programs or other activities at the seniors' centres. They use that, not so much as a meal program, but as a social program. It becomes very, very popular. So the people not only serve the nutritional needs on possibly a three-day cycle, or three-day-out-of-a-week cycle, but also more importantly the social aspect of getting out and being involved and participating in some sort of activity. So there is an intangible benefit to the meal program, if you want to call it, which is the social program, which is even more important, you know, the activities.
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Mr. Santos: In fact even the problem about seniors' loneliness, I think I have a feeling that the social aspect of the meal is much more important than the food aid.
Let us take another locale, West End Seniors building there on Burnell. They have a congregational meal program; apparently you can buy for $3.50 or something a lunch. Do they get any help at all from government?
Mr. Chairperson in the Chair
Mr. Reimer: The club that the member is referring to I believe does get a small Support Services to Seniors grant, and that grant is a grant to cover a lot of things. It is not necessarily just geared towards one specific area. The grant itself is multifaceted in how they use the money for the meal program. It is for a cook.
Mr. Santos: Going back to the Meals on Wheels, separating it quite entirely from the congregational programs, the drivers delivery role is done by volunteers in their own cars using their own gasoline and their own time. How long would such a program last if we ran out of such good people, unless there is some kind of systematic way of, I mean, replacing whatever resource they already used on a voluntary basis? Should there not be some kind of a place where they could ask for reimbursement for receipts, validated for use for such a purpose?
Mr. Reimer: It is a good point that the member raises, but sometimes it is amazing the good will and the willingness of people to serve and to be part of a sense of community in what they will donate as a sense of giving back to the community, and a lot of the drivers with Meals on Wheels may receive some gasoline allowance from the individual or the person that they are delivering the meals to, but a lot of them give it back into the program because they feel that it is a donation in kind by themselves to the community, because there is a revolving of drivers and a lot of times the drivers will change and they may only drive once or twice a week and other drivers will do it and there is an abundance of people that want to be part of community. So we are fortunate that we here in Manitoba have got that type of people that are available.
Mr. Santos: Focusing on the meal providers, the voluntary charitable kind of organization that provides the supplies and the cooking labour and all the other input that they need to produce the meals, where do they get their resources if the United Way or other charitable organizations have limited resources also to give them? Do they have any place to go if they want to continue with their program and they run out of money?
Mr. Reimer: I guess we are fortunate that we have not had that much problem with these programs, or these people who are running Meals on Wheels. We do not seem to have a problem with them staying viable. They just keep on rolling. There is a goodness of heart by not only the people who are driving but the people who are donating and the people who are involved. Like I say, we are very fortunate. I do not know of any that have folded. The people pay for it to an extent, so the money keeps rolling back into it through donations and through the meals that they charge. The programs perpetuate themselves, so it has proven to be very, very beneficial.
Mr. Santos: Does it indicate that the receipts they get from the proceeds of the meals when they sell it for a fee to the ultimate consumer is at least equal to the cost or maybe a little bit of margin there, a little bit of profit?
Mr. Reimer: The Meals on Wheels has proven to be very cost-effective, because it has been handled by people who are very, very shrewd with the dollar, in a sense, and they make sure that the one dollar will go as long as it can. They are very, very conscious of their costs and their programs that they run. They are quite shrewd in the management and what they charge, and they try to charge a minimum amount to, as the member mentioned, either break even or become very, very close to breaking even, taking into account the donations that they do receive from various organizations and various philanthropic people who donate to the local Meals on Wheels program.
So the management of it has been very, very critical, and it has proven to be quite beneficial to not only Winnipeg but all areas of Manitoba in how it has been handled. So I compliment the organizers and the people who are involved with Meals on Wheels because it has proven to be very, very successful, and more importantly, more cost-effective in their management of their food costs and their distributions. So it is very well managed.
Mr. Santos: Given that the recipient of the service, the one who takes the meal for a fee, are such that they are mostly probably a person with limited mobility and probably in a state of disability because they cannot go to the congregate meal locale, given that these are people who need the meal in any event, is there not some kind of a government responsibility there that these people should not miss any meal for lack of volunteers to deliver the meal?
Mr. Reimer: I think that when community takes responsibility to an extent of providing something that is voluntarily like this that they monitor it pretty close themselves. I have been in communities where they use the Meals on Wheels as a way to keep in touch with the seniors, to socialize with the seniors, and to make sure there is a quality of life that they can enjoy in the community. It serves two purposes: it serves itself, as I mentioned before, of supplying a meal to the individual who maybe cannot supply for himself; but it also gives the ability for the deliverer of the meal to work on a checkup system to make sure that that person is in proper health, or not hurt, or in suffering of some sort. So it has a spider web effect of keeping the community aware of looking after their seniors. That is something that a lot of communities are very, very proud of in how they operate their seniors' programs and how they operate their Meals on Wheels programs, so that there is a continuity of care in there.
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So I have a lot of confidence in the community itself in looking after a lot of the seniors, and it has proven to be very successful.
Mr. Santos: The impression is that they are successful because no one misses a meal? Is that a fact or just no one reported that they missed a meal?
Mr. Reimer: It is hard to say whether anybody is out there--I would not want to speculate and say that everybody is, you know, being fed, but at the same time I think that the reports of success are something that we can be very proud of, and we can feel that the community is itself looking after these programs in a very manageable way. I feel that the program can really work by itself in the community.
Mr. Santos: How long will it take, Mr. Chairperson, to pass this?
Mr. Chairperson: Three minutes.
Mr. Santos: I will reserve the last three minutes. You remind me, and I will use the time most efficiently.
Let us go to another unit here, the Manitoba Council on Aging. That is the next page. Who constitutes the council, other than Dr. Stuart Hampton?
Mr. Reimer: There are 15 members. They are from various areas of Manitoba. It is intended to try to represent people from all areas of Manitoba, the city of Winnipeg, rural areas, gender. I can send you a list of that if you like.
Mr. Santos: Thank you. Do they get any stipend for attending council meetings?
Mr. Reimer: Yes. We can send you the schedule on that, too.
Mr. Santos: How long do they serve?
Mr. Reimer: Usually, it is about two years.
Mr. Santos: Since the council was instituted, has there been any changeover of council members?
Mr. Reimer: Yes, there has been. I would think that we have changed over at least 50 percent.
Mr. Santos: Do they get re-elected as many times as they would like to?
Mr. Reimer: I think that what we look at is trying to rotate on about a two-year basis or so. The chairperson, Mr. Stuart Hampton, has been the chair now for--I think he is just going into his third year. But some of the members have been there for two or three years. There is a turnover of seniors. Either they move or they feel that they will move on to something else.
Mr. Santos: If one wants to serve there as many times as they have energy and resources and talents for, would they be allowed to?
Mr. Reimer: Oh, I think that we are always willing to--you know, people with talent, you like to keep them around as long as you can, certainly.
Mr. Santos: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairperson, the Chairperson will remind me of the time.
Mr. Chairperson: I will remind you.
Mr. Santos: Given the overall responsibilities of the council, I would like to focus now on the first listed responsibility there on page 3. It says: identifying opportunities for government by adapting programs, policies and institutions to accommodate the aging populations of Manitoba.
Could the honourable minister give us a specific concrete instance of opportunities for government which the Manitoba Council on Aging had identified for the Seniors Directorate?
Mr. Reimer: There was a program that we heard about in Ontario called Through Other Eyes. It is a program to make people aware of seniors' difficulties and problems that they perceive. We vented that through the Council on Aging, and their opinion was that we could utilize that here in Manitoba. They also came up with the idea of having an awards program for seniors of distinction or organizations or businesses that have contributed to the well-being of seniors, and that is something that we now initiate on a yearly basis that the Council on Aging recommended. So those are two of the incidents of where they have come up with opportunities for the government.
Mr. Santos: If the conference of Seniors ministers progresses to the one they envision, all this information would be immediately available.
Mr. Reimer: That is right. With the compilation of information, that is exactly what we would want to make available for all provinces to be aware of.
Mr. Santos: Does the minister promise to pursue that kind of development in the conference?
Mr. Reimer: Yes, we have made the commitment that that is one of the directions that we want to go.
Mr. Santos: Let us go to the second responsibility then: where appropriate, making specific recommendations and program policy and legislation to better reflect seniors' changing needs, issues and concerns. Now I would like to ask the honourable minister if he can identify any specific information or recommendations about programs, policy and legislation, precisely the handiwork of the Manitoba Council on Aging.
Mr. Reimer: Yes, a very specific recommendation, as I remember, when we were having the council out to one of the rural areas. I believe it was up in Dauphin area, in fact. The council was up there, and they had pointed out to us a difficulty they had with the scheduling of bus routes in that particular area. The council, we approached the Grey Goose Bus Lines to see whether they could try to accommodate the seniors in their travels through that area. I believe that they responded favourably to our recommendations, and that was something that came straight out of one of our trips up into the other areas.
We have always tried to get into some of the rural towns because they do have problems that we feel that we should be addressing too, so with that I will let the Chairperson move it.
Mr. Chairperson: One quick one.
Mr. Santos: One quick one. During the fiscal year 1997-1998, how many consultation processes through meetings with relevant organization groups and individuals have been done by the Directorate?
Mr. Chairperson: The honourable minister, with a quick answer.
Mr. Reimer: She has had numerous meetings. I emphasize her getting out and meeting with the community as much as is possible.
Mr. Chairperson: 24.1. Seniors Directorate (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $401,200--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $233,800--pass.
Resolution 24.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $635,000, for Seniors Directorate, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1999.
This concludes the Seniors Directorate.
The hour now being five o'clock, time for private members' hour. Committee rise.
Call in the Speaker.