ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, yesterday, new and serious allegations were made concerning the Conservative Party and the election in 1995 with the Native Voice candidate Darryl Sutherland, allegations that were backed up by Tory candidate Kim Sigurdson and confirmed at meetings that took place with Mr. Sale and Mr. Evans. Today, again, Mr. Sutherland has gone public with a written statement saying that the entire campaign was funded by the Conservatives.

Now yesterday, the Premier said that all of these matters had been investigated by Elections Manitoba, and today Mr. Wilkie admitted that the powers of Elections Manitoba are limited: AAfter the 1995 elections we recognized . . . the tools we had weren't sufficient.@

I would like to ask the Premier to do the proper thing today with these serious, serious allegations of the political process, of the democratic process here in Manitoba, and clear the air and have an independent judicial inquiry so that all people can speak out under oath so the truth can come out and democracy can be served.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I might point out that the statement that was made yesterday, some three years after the alleged incident, by Mr. Sutherland was entirely different from the statement that he made at the time of the election and in fact the election finance return that he filed--an entire change.

I would like to point out, as well, that yesterday in questioning here in this House members opposite alleged that Allan Aitken had confirmed that he had had a meeting and had done all sorts of things. I heard him this morning on CBC Radio saying that: I was not at any meeting where Darryl Sutherland was asked to run. I was not with Evans and this other guy or with Sigurdson. So be it.

Madam Speaker, there appears to be a lot of allegations--[interjection] Or did you get to Sutherland? [interjection] Yes.

Madam Speaker, these are the kinds of things that we hear always from members opposite, and quite honestly there seems not to be any credibility in the things that they put forward.

As I said earlier, Elections Manitoba has looked at it before. If they want to look at it again, I would be happy for them to do so.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, why is this Premier trying to cover up the truth? Why does he not want an independent judicial inquiry? Elections Manitoba has admitted that they do not have the power. This is an allegation of corruption right in the office of the Premier. He can smile all he wants; he can laugh all he wants. This is not funny.

Madam Speaker, his election campaign was co-chaired by the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) and the member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Vodrey). These are serious, serious allegations.

Yesterday the Premier confirmed Mr. Sokolyk was not interviewed by Elections Manitoba. Mr. Sigurdson, a Tory candidate who was at meetings in April of '95 accusing the government of being involved in this money transfer to the Native Voice candidate, was not interviewed by Elections Manitoba. Mr. Sutherland today in a statement says he was never interviewed by Elections Manitoba. Mr. Sutherland is now saying that he wants to tell the truth under oath before this committee. Mr. Sigurdson wants to tell the truth; Mr. Sale, Mr. Evans want to tell the truth. Why are you afraid of a judicial inquiry? Let us have one right now.

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I am glad to hear that Mr. Sale wants to tell the truth. That might be a novelty.

We are repeating, with the same cast of characters, allegations that were made here in this House, only different allegations this time by the member for Crescentwood who brought sworn affidavits in between October 21 and October 23 of 1996, brought sworn affidavits, sworn by, I might say, Mr. Kim Sigurdson, Mr. Allan Aitken and at that time Chief Pascal Bighetty. The member for Crescentwood brought those sworn affidavits about fishing, about illegal fishing, allegations that were made against the member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) and the member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger). For three days, he pounded away in this House waving around these sworn affidavits.

Then, when the matter was about to go to court, what happened was that the people who signed those affidavits withdrew their allegations and wrote a letter saying that they were--and, in fact, Chief Pascal Bighetty said that this was all politics. In fact, he said that this is a publicity stunt and I have been set up, he said, by members opposite, all for their own cheap politics, by the member for Crescentwood, all for his cheap politics. We have more of the same today. Now it is being, of course, perpetrated by the Leader of the Opposition.

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Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) would tell us the truth about who paid for his hotel room if he was at the Olympic Games, unlike the Premier opposite.

But let us deal with the facts of this case. Mr. Sutherland has entered a statement that has $4,913 that has been contributed to his Native Voice campaign by himself. He has now stated that this money came from the Progressive Conservative Party, the party to which the Premier is the Leader. He has stated that this money was passed to him, and he has admitted that, at the time he donated that money to himself, allegedly he was on social assistance. I would like to ask the Premier: why is he afraid for a judicial inquiry to review the $4,913 and review where that extreme amount of money came from for that candidate? What are you afraid of?

Mr. Filmon: The member opposite knows that we have all sorts of rules and procedures that must be followed under Elections Manitoba's rules and legislation. He knows very well that it would be very easy to determine whether or not the Progressive Conservative Party gave that money to Mr. Sutherland, and I know that is just not so. It did not happen. Just because members opposite want to make those allegations does not make them true.

Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): A couple of days ago, on June 21, marked the 8th anniversary of the Meech Lake Accord dying in the Manitoba Legislature. At that time First Nations people and aboriginal people had a sense that they had some control and that the system was out there to work for them.

In our meeting this morning with Darryl Sutherland, who has been mentioned here today and yesterday, this matter concerning what we are talking about in this House has indeed troubled him ever since. He feels that he has been used and manipulated, as well as other aboriginal people, Madam Speaker.

Simply, I would like to ask the Premier to clarify or explain as to why the campaign manager for the Interlake met with the candidates of what were supposed to be opponents to give them money and advice.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, those are questions that the member opposite might want to ask Mr. Aitken. I am not aware of nor did I take part in those meetings. My only awareness of it is from what I read in the media. But I will say that what Mr. Sutherland is saying, of course, is similar to what Chief Pascal Bighetty said when he got involved in the allegations and the accusations brought to this House by the New Democrats. He said: this is a publicity stunt and I have been set up. So I can understand how he would feel used by New Democrats in this process.

Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, simply what Mr. Sutherland would like to do is clear the air, and I am sure the Premier would like to do that as well.

I would like to ask this Premier again, simply will he call for a full independent judicial inquiry?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I have said before that we deal with allegations that change every day, with so-called evidence that changes every day by members opposite. They say Mr. Aitken said one thing; he denies that the next day, Madam Speaker, and those are the kinds of things that--[interjection] Yes, just as you got to Sutherland, sure, same thing.

Madam Speaker, these are the kinds of things that are not the subject of judicial inquiries. These are allegations, unsubstantiated, that are made by members opposite for their own political purposes.

Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, the statement I was referring to by Mr. Sutherland, I would like to table that for the House. I also want to give the Premier an opportunity, if he does want to meet with Mr. Sutherland and call him a liar to his face, he has that opportunity. Mr. Sutherland is in the gallery this afternoon.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health. It follows the same line of questioning that I was asking yesterday.

Madam Speaker, for many, many years, rural Manitoba has been in desperate need of doctors. In the province of Manitoba, we have individuals that have the ability to in fact practise medicine. This government has not been addressing that issue, and I ask the Minister of Health: what is the Minister of Health prepared to do to ensure that those individuals that are here today are given the opportunity to practise medicine, something which, in many cases, they are qualified to do?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Those in fact are the key operative words, Aqualified@ and Aability,@ and that is what the College of Physicians and Surgeons have the responsibility to determine. Now I do not always agree with all of the policies that the college puts in place, both in Manitoba and across the country, but they are the licensing body that has that responsibility to license physicians to practice in this province, and Madam Speaker, in order for any foreign-trained physician to be able to have the legal ability to be able to practice in Manitoba, they are required to be licensed by that body.

There are a host of factors that fit into why some physicians are not able to be licensed: having their qualifications confirmed from their place of education; being trained in an acceptable educational environment to our college; and secondly, meeting the local nuances of practice. Being able to practice in a North American environment is also part of that test. We want to work with people to overcome those obstacles, but they are not dictates by the government. They are set by the College of Physicians and Surgeons.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, maybe the Minister of Health can explain to me how it makes sense that the government travels the world in order to get doctors for rural Manitoba, when in fact we have doctors that do have the ability here, who are on social assistance as a direct result of this government's inaction. In fact, we have one in the gallery today.

My question to the minister, Madam Speaker, is: why has this government been sitting back for years in trying to deal with this very important issue to all rural Manitobans?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, first of all, this is not just an issue for rural Manitobans. It is an issue for all Manitobans. But secondly, the member for Inkster in no way has offered any criticism of the college, and yet it is their responsibility to license physicians. I know in the work that we have done, and my legislative assistant, the member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) has done in this particular area, for example, I think it is the Part 2 Examination, which is the nuances and customs of practice in North America, that there are many, many of those students who fail that examination. We are working with the college now to find ways to be able to give them opportunities to hone their skills to be able to meet the qualifications of practice in this province that are set not by the Ministry of Health but by the College of Physicians and Surgeons.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Inkster, with a supplementary question.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, will the Minister of Health recognize, had he recognized the talents and abilities of those individuals that we have here in the province today, that at the same time in which he appointed this committee to travel the world to look for doctors, in fact we would have 12 to 16 more doctors practising in rural Manitoba in the next few months? How does the Minister of Health justify his lack of inaction causing more problems in health care delivery for rural Manitobans?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, first of all, there is no committee travelling the world. We retained a recruiter in South Africa last year because the physicians there meet the qualifications of our College of Physicians and Surgeons and have been able to be licensed. If it makes the member any happier today, I can say right here I recognize their qualifications, but legally that does not give those foreign-trained physicians the right to practise.

For the third time, I would remind the member that it is the College of Physicians and Surgeons who have that responsibility. If the member is advocating that we take away that licensing responsibility from the college and put it in the Ministry of Health, would he please clearly say so on the record?

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Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, my questions are directed to the Premier.

When I came here in 1990 it did not take me long to understand how this Premier regards aboriginal people. This Premier has absolutely no respect whatsoever for aboriginal people. When he is not telling them to go to the federal government instead of to him, he discriminates against aboriginal people in programs and services. A good example of that is the REDI program.

I would like to ask the Premier why he now has resorted to taking advantage of vulnerable people like Mr. Sutherland for his own political gain, and I would ask him today: will he do the right thing and call for an inquiry?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, with the greatest of respect to the member for The Pas, I would reject entirely his preamble. I recall in the days when he was Chief of Opasquiak First Nation how we worked together, our government and his First Nation, in the establishment of the northern aboriginal nursing program, which we hand in hand announced together in The Pas after a number of years of working together. I can tell him that when we were running for office, I said that one of our commitments was to resolve many of the long-outstanding issues between the aboriginal peoples and the government of Manitoba. That government, I might tell him, for the better part of two decades was New Democratic. They left outstanding treaty land entitlements for decades; they left outstanding that issue, and they also left outstanding the Northern Flood Agreement for over a decade.

Madam Speaker, since we have been in office, we have not only done the resolution to the treaty land entitlement with over a million acres of land being transferred by this government to the First Nations of Manitoba, but we have settled with four of the five First Nations on the northern--

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Point of Order

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Beauchesne Citation 417 is very clear that answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. The member for The Pas asked the Premier about whether he will call an inquiry into the tactics of him, his chief of staff, his political party, in taking advantage of Darryl Sutherland and showing disrespect for aboriginal people.

I would like to ask you to call the Premier to order and answer that very serious question that we are asking on behalf of all Manitobans today.

Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): On the same point of order, Madam Speaker. The honourable member for The Pas raised issues in his question respecting the policies of this government, respecting aboriginal people and went on at some length to deal with those matters, exactly the matters referred to in the answer given by the Premier. The honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) has no point of order.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I am not certain if the honourable First Minister had completed his response or not, but on the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, then, indeed, it is very difficult to rule if the honourable minister had not completed his response. He, therefore, does not have a point of order.

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I want to conclude with respect to the assertion that the member for The Pas has made about our lack of concern for issues to do with aboriginal people, that we have settled with four of the five First Nations in the Northern Flood Agreement; we have built the north central transmission line to be able to provide low-cost electricity to seven--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Point of Order

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I just quoted Beauchesne Citation 417. If the Premier wants to try and filibuster Question Period to try and get out of answering our questions, that is not only not in order in terms of our rules, but that shows complete disrespect for the question that has been asked by the member for The Pas, the kinds of questions many aboriginal people in this province want answers to. For the second time, I would like to ask you to bring this Premier to order and ask him to answer the question.

Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, on the same point of order. None of the authorities to which the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) refers so often requires any minister in Ottawa or in any of the Legislatures to answer questions. Nonetheless, the First Minister has answered that very question at least a dozen times. I have been counting over the past couple of days. So, again, the honourable member for Thompson has no point of order.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, I would request that the honourable First Minister quickly complete his response.

Mr. Filmon: And so, Madam Speaker, there is absolutely no substance to his assertion that we are not concerned about aboriginal people. We have been working very diligently and accomplishing many, many things for the aboriginal people of this province in the last decade. I say to him this is not an issue of what is the race or the nature of the person. This is to do with the allegations and the unsubstantiated allegations and the lack of credibility of the allegations, and that is why I do not believe that there is any merit to their requirement to call for a judicial inquiry.

Mr. Lathlin: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier another question and that is: why is he so afraid, if he has nothing to hide, to let people testify as to what his party workers and officials did or did not do during the election?

Mr. Filmon: We have already seen that much of the information that has been brought to this House by members opposite has not proven to be factual. We have seen it in the past. It has been demonstrated on the record. We have seen it over the last couple of days. That is the reason why I do not believe that there is justification to do what the member opposite is suggesting.

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, I have one last question for the First Minister, and that is: what explanation does he have as to why his campaign manager for the Interlake, in the '95 election, why did that person meet with candidates of what were supposed to be the opponents of the Tories? Why did he give them money?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, like the member opposite, I am sure he read as well as I did Mr. Aitken's explanations of that which were in the media three years ago.

Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Madam Speaker, yesterday in this House I confirmed that I had attended a meeting with Mr. Allan Aitken and others on January 6. I also confirmed that Mr. Aitken told us that the PC Party had funded the Native Voice candidates, and that he had also met with Mr. Taras Sokolyk.

Madam Speaker, my question to the Premier: since Mr. Aitken's statements today put my word in question since I am willing to state the truth under oath, will he allow this public judicial inquiry that we all are asking for?

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Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I find it very interesting that this member is so concerned about this today over five months after the meeting took place. I find it really interesting as well that he did not put down his allegations or his accusations in writing back at that time, but five months later when I guess he and his colleagues had clarified just what it was that they had heard, he eventually put it down in writing. That is really interesting. That is really interesting that he had to get his story right five months later in order to make it happen in Question Period in this House.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Interlake, with a supplementary question.

Mr. C. Evans: Thank you, Madam Speaker. As I said in my first question yesterday, I confirmed the meeting. Today I am asking the Premier to give us all the opportunity to establish what has been said, what has been heard, to tell the truth in this matter. Call the public inquiry. You will get all your answers. From whenever it started in 1995, you will get your answers.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member for Interlake that Ato tell the truth,@ when made in specific reference to a member in this Chamber, has been ruled unparliamentary on several occasions, and I would ask that the honourable member pick and choose his words carefully.

Point of Order

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, the term Ato tell the truth@ might be unparliamentary if it was used in regard to another member, but even--we are so concerned about this. You may notice the only person that has been questioning motives in this House is the Premier. All the member for Interlake was doing was saying he wants an opportunity, along with everybody involved in this, to put all the facts on the record, to tell the truth. That is not only not an unparliamentary statement, that is absolutely appropriate to this scandal we are seeing right now in this House.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson does not have a point of order.

Mr. Filmon: If the member opposite was so filled with a desire to have the truth come out and to put it all on the record--the meeting took place in January, he says, but it took him until yesterday to decide to speak about it. It took him until yesterday to decide to put down his recollections in writing. It took him until yesterday to raise this issue in the Legislature. That is a real burning issue, Madam Speaker, quite evidently, in the mind of the member opposite. He is really concerned, is he not, about his own circumstances.

Mr. C. Evans: Madam Speaker, will this Premier provide us with a judicial inquiry? The Premier, who yesterday said AI am satisfied from my investigations,@ will then have the opportunity to bring forward under oath all the investigations that the Premier himself did related to the '95 election.

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I repeat: this member for Interlake is now putting on the record something that he says is a burning issue, and yet presumably all of the evidence that he has, which is a conversation he says took place over five months ago, he sat on it for five months. He did not put it down to writing, his recollections or anything. He did not do any of that for over five months. He did not raise it in this House, and now it is a burning issue. I think he lacks a little credibility.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, before the Premier digs himself in any deeper, I should let him know that the notes to file were completed on January 8, and they were supplied to my lawyer very shortly thereafter--just before he digs himself in any deeper.

Madam Speaker, Mr. Billie Uruski, who was interviewed by Mr. Hanson, the former RCMP officer who undertook the investigation for Elections Manitoba, was told by Mr. Hanson, Mr. Hanson did not have the power to require people to talk to him. He did not have the power to require any of the candidates to speak. He did not have the power to take statements under oath. He did not have the power to require records. He did not even talk to Mr. Sutherland, and he said, even with that, Mr. Uruski's allegations were sustained in his view.

Will the Premier tell us how that constitutes an adequate investigation and adequate powers for Elections Manitoba?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, of course the member opposite says that his recollections were put down in writing, but of course conveniently they were not raised here until five months later. This is the kind of thing--and similarly we have of course the so-called affidavits that were brought to this House by the member for Crescentwood from this same Mr. Allan Aitken, from this same Mr. Kim Sigurdson, and from Chief Pascal Bighetty regarding another issue, in 1996, in October of 1996, allegations and in fact signed affidavits that were subsequently totally renounced and withdrawn, and that is of course the kind of basis on which the member for Crescentwood always operates. That is not the basis on which we should be investigating this issue.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, can the Premier explain, if he is satisfied that Elections Manitoba had all the power and the authority to undertake a full investigation, which of course we know they were not able to do, why is he now putting forward amendments precisely giving them the power of subpoena, the power of search and seizure? If they had adequate powers to do their job in the past, why is he increasing their power by a very significant amount by the act which he has laid before this Legislature? How can he explain that?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, if the member opposite had listened to or read my comments in Hansard when I introduced that bill, or when I appeared before committee with respect to a companion bill, he would know that I have said that we believe, and I think that his party believes, and I certainly know the Liberal Party believes, that these acts that govern our elections process and our elections finances ought to be the subject of nonpartisan review, nonpartisan consensus recommendations, and that all of the recommendations were those that were brought forward by the Chief Electoral Officer as part of his effort to ensure that he can do his job as well as possible. We accepted those, and we converted them into legislative changes. That is exactly why those bills are before the House in this particular session.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, the seriousness of the accusations that have been made about the corruption that took place in the last election, corruption to the electoral process, cannot be underestimated, particularly given the fact that Taras Sokolyk has been the director of the Premier's secretariat since 1991, continues in that position today, was also the central campaign manager in the 1995 election, a person who was described in the Tory newspaper as the person behind the machine, campaign manager refused to fail. Yesterday, on the record, the Premier stated, and I quote: AI repeat that I am satisfied from my investigations.@

I would like to ask the minister: what investigations? What did the Premier know about this corruption of the electoral process, and when will he do the right thing, ask Taras Sokolyk to resign, pending the result of an independent judicial inquiry?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I want to ensure that the members opposite know and that members of the public know that this is alleged corruption by the New Democrats, alleged corruption for which I can find no substance or evidence to support their alleged allegations.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.