Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Premier. Four months ago the Royal Canadian Legion wrote the former minister responsible for the frozen food about the quality of frozen food and the hardships that frozen food experiment had placed on war veterans residing in the Deer Lodge hospital. The Royal Canadian Legion has recommended that that contract be cancelled at the Deer Lodge hospital on behalf of the war veterans residing in that facility.

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I would like to ask the Premier, who was copied on the letter: has he accepted or rejected the recommendation to cancel that frozen food at Deer Lodge hospital?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, we discussed this issue on a couple of occasions in this last week. I have indicated to the member opposite that significant changes were made in terms of the delivery and provision of food at Deer Lodge hospital. I am certainly told that continual assessment is done in terms of the response to the food, and there is continually more and more acceptance that the food is of a reasonable quality and certainly appropriate nutrition. I also understand, and I think the member opposite might be aware, that just in the January issue of the Manitoba Society of Seniors, members of their board actually undertook to go to the Deer Lodge facility, to tour it and to sample some of the food.

I quote from the report from that board. It says: the food served on our tour group was a choice between a veal pate meal with potatoes, green beans, soup, a bun, cake and so on. It goes on to say that the group seemed to agree that the meals served were eye appealing, nutritional and tasty. So, again, this is coming from the Manitoba Society of Seniors who certainly have taken an interest in this issue. The objective throughout all of this is to continue to make sure that the food is of a reasonable and appropriate quality and nutrition for the people of the Deer Lodge facility. All steps continue to be taken to make sure that that is the case.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, I will allow the residents and the families to speak on the quality of the food. The minister has indicated that the economies of scale of preparing the food at one site provide greater, quote, efficiency for the preparation of the food.

We have received minutes from the residents and families of Deer Lodge hospital dated April 6, and they indicate that vegetables prepared for the residents of Deer Lodge hospital are first of all prepared in the frozen food centre; then they are shipped over to Deer Lodge hospital where they are steamed; then they are shipped back to the frozen food centre where they are frozen and trayed; and then they are shipped back again to the Deer Lodge hospital where they are thawed out and served. Is this the kind of efficiency that the government was talking about with the fiasco, the Filmon food fiasco? Why does the Filmon government not reject this proposal as recommended by the war veterans?

Mr. Stefanson: Again, Madam Speaker, it is a similar question the member has asked before. We have outlined for him that, first of all, the capital cost requirement at nine hospital facilities would have been in the range of approximately $40 million. The capital cost of one centralized facility is approximately $20 million, $21 million. You can certainly see the savings there in terms of the investment on the capital side of the facilities with one centralized service. Again, the member seems to have difficulty with understanding the concept that if you prepare services at one central location, that certainly can be and will be much more efficient than preparing things at nine different locations, again in terms of the economies of scale, the centralization of those services. So the objective throughout is quality food, nutritional food, done as efficiently and as effectively as possible so that the dollars that are saved as a result of that are left in the health care system for other needs to meet the needs of patients here in the province of Manitoba.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, you have got the legion saying the food is not acceptable and asking the government to cancel it. You have got a situation now where the food is being prepared at the frozen food centre, the $20-million centre. It goes to a second site at Deer Lodge hospital. The cafeteria is there so you are not going to be closing down that site. Then it goes back to the frozen food centre to be trayed and frozen again—so it is frozen twice—then back to the Deer Lodge hospital. Is the minister trying to tell us that that is more efficient than the way it was in the past where they just prepared the meals onsite for the war veterans at the Deer Lodge hospital?

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Mr. Stefanson: Well, Madam Speaker, I do not necessarily accept anything that the Leader of the Opposition is saying. As I have indicated to the members, certainly in the case of Deer Lodge, continual steps have been taken to make sure that the food is of appropriate quality and nutrition. I think, as I mentioned to the member opposite the other day, there are some 190 residents at Deer Lodge now that are actually receiving full dining services featuring a dining room style food service. I understand on that same tour that the Manitoba Society of Seniors undertook at Deer Lodge that there were some nine members of the legion that were there as part of that as well. They, again, also certainly suggested that the food was reasonable and nothing to complain about.

The objective throughout is to be sure that the food is of appropriate quality and appropriate nutrition. Certainly the system that is in place can provide more efficient delivery of that food, thereby leaving more resources to meet other health care needs in the health care system that we are committed to provide.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, the Health minister has defended the quality and nutritional value of the frozen food served to patients, and yet a review of the minutes of the long term advisory council dating from November of last year reveals a litany of problems still there today, including mashed potatoes with lumps so hard they cannot be cut with a knife or fork by the patients, soups with lumps of flour in them that are indigestible, vegetables that are too hard to chew and swallow and present a choking hazard.

Does the minister, in light of the minutes of this committee from November of last year, roughly a month or so after it was introduced at Deer Lodge, still defend the quality of the food being served to Deer Lodge patients?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, as usual, the member for Crescentwood lives in the past. I have indicated to him he is talking November of last year, and I have indicated to this House and to him very clearly that steps have continually been taken to improve the quality of food at Deer Lodge. They have changed how the food is being served to a significant extent at Deer Lodge. They also continue to work at making sure that the food is of a reasonable quality. Tests are continually done at all of the facilities that are now providing this food.

As I have said before, I can certainly cite examples that show the approval rating continues to improve and increase. In fact, at one facility the approval rating for this food was significantly higher than the approval rating at the facility under the previous system.

But, again, the objective throughout is to provide quality, nutritional food done as efficiently and effectively as possible. This system certainly will and can do that. That is the overall objective, and that will meet the needs of Manitobans and leave more resources for other health care services.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, what does the minister have to say to families, for example, to Pat Courtnage who is with us today in the gallery, who have watched continuing weight loss in their loved ones in the months since the frozen food was introduced, weight loss so severe that incontinent patients have had to be placed in smaller diapers? What does he say to Mrs. Courtnage?

I am going to table this chart, Madam Speaker, the weight losses and gains from one ward of 36 patients in one of these facilities. Fourteen of these had to move into smaller diapers since November of last year.

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Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, first of all, I certainly would be concerned about the health of any individual in any of our health care facilities, but I am not so certain that the member for Crescentwood has specific information to suggest that this is a direct relationship to food because, again, the assessment that has been done by the panel that reviews the quality of food, the assessment that has been done by the individual facilities, the feedback from other facilities that have come on stream with the new food services shows that the approval ratings for the food continue to increase, continue to improve. In fact, the survey showed, as I have already indicated, that the approval rating is higher at facilities today than under the previous food system.

Again, in terms of an individual's health, obviously I think we are all concerned about the well-being of all of the people who are in any of our health care facilities, but the objective of this process, with the support, I should remind everybody, of the nine hospitals themselves that are providing these services, is to do it through a centralized service to provide quality, nutritional food.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, does the minister continue to believe that weight loss among 33 of 36 patients on one ward averaging 5 pounds and in many cases exceeding 10 pounds is not in fact an obvious reflection on the nutritional value and the quantity and quality of food being served? Will he not put this frozen food experiment on hold and let our patients have decent food, at least–

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): I have sat by as Minister of Agriculture and heard this constant attack about the quality of food my farmers are providing for our hospitals. Manitoba Peak of the Market, the growers of Manitoba, supply all the vegetables for our hospital facilities, and they are of the finest quality in the world, under any measurement stick, under any measurement. I resent this talk and this implication about the nutritional value of the vegetables we grow in Manitoba. I resent the talk about the quality of the vegetables that we grow in Manitoba. It is a personal attack against the farmers of Manitoba.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I recognize it is Friday, but I would appreciate the co-operation of all members in having a more fluid running Question Period.

The honourable member for Thompson, on the same point of order.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On the same point of order, Madam Speaker, reluctant as I am to contradict the most senior member of the House, I suspect that is not a point of order. In fact, I think if the minister had been listening carefully, our concern is about the deliberate policies of this government putting in place a system of food preparation that is jeopardizing the situation of our war vets and many other patients.

Madam Speaker, I would appreciate it if the Minister of Health, without the assistance of the Minister of Agriculture, would deal with the question and stop dealing with our patients and our war vets as if they were part of a bottom line. Let us think about the people when it comes to frozen food in this province.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable Minister of Agriculture, the honourable minister did not have a point of order.

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, there is a long-term care food advisory council that meets regularly. It actually includes family members of residents and staff from Deer Lodge and from Riverview, continues to make recommendations in terms of continually providing quality food, and so on. I should remind members opposite that 100 percent of the food being used through Urban Shared Services Corporation is accessed right here in Manitoba, and well over 50 percent of it is produced right here in Manitoba.

So the comments of my colleague the Minister of Agriculture are absolutely correct. The objective throughout all of this is to provide nutritional, quality food to the people in our health care facilities, and that is being done, Madam Speaker.

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Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I know the Minister of Finance likes to come up with good- news statistics all the time, but I would invite the minister to look at Statistics Canada data on wage trends in this province, and he will see that between the time that his government was elected in 1988 and last year, 1998, the increase in average weekly earnings has not kept pace with inflation in this province. As a result, real wage, that is, after inflation is removed, has declined by 2.8 percent, which is equivalent to a drop of almost $12 per week in the purchasing power of Manitoba workers.

Will the Minister of Finance explain to this House why the standard of living of workers in Manitoba has actually declined significantly under his administration?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Finance): Well, the member is quite correct. On this side of the House we do have an optimistic view of the future as opposed to the rather negative one that we hear from members opposite on a continuous basis. I think it is important that the member look at the real disposable income that Manitobans have. This is the money left in their pockets after income tax and CPP and EI. This also includes farmers, pensioners and the self-employed. Because we have had no tax increases for over 11 years and in fact some tax reductions, I am pleased to report that the disposable income of Manitobans has grown faster than the national average in five out of the last seven years.

Mr. Leonard Evans: I have a supplementary question, Madam Speaker. I would point out that I have also checked personal disposable income, and we do not look very good there either. We decline there as well. Tell me, how can the minister explain that, in the same period, 1988 to 1998, we have Canadian average weekly earnings increasing? They increase by 2.7 percent or $12.57. Why did Manitoba workers suffer a decline of nearly $12 a week while workers in Canada as a whole realized an increase of $12.57?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Madam Speaker, the latest statistics from Statistics Canada on average family incomes show that in Manitoba the family income is $54,000, the fourth highest in Canada, exceeded only by Ontario, British Columbia and Alberta. Members opposite want to talk about the minimum wage. Certainly we have increased that to $6, which is only exceeded by B.C., Ontario and Quebec. We also have the lowest unemployment rate in the country at 5.4 percent.

Mr. Leonard Evans: Madam Speaker, I wish the minister would address the concerns of Manitoba workers who look at their pay package and see that it is declining when you take the inflation into account. In fact, Manitoba wages--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Is there a question?

Mr. Leonard Evans: Will the minister explain, Madam Speaker, and acknowledge that Manitoba real wages were 91.7 percent of the Canadian average in 1988, but last year they had dropped to 86.7 percent. In other words, in 1988 there was $38.40 less per week. By 1998 this spread had gone to $62.95. We were worse.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Leonard Evans: Too many low-paying jobs.

Madam Speaker: The question has been put.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I would encourage the member to look at the tremendous economic activity that is taking place throughout the province of Manitoba, particularly in his backyard with the tremendous expansion at Simplot and the hog producing plant that is coming on stream there. Family incomes in Manitoba have increased by 4.2 percent, which was the largest gain in the country by far and more than four times as large as that of Canada. So I would urge the member to look at all of the statistics, to recognize from visiting communities across Manitoba, including Brandon, that there is a tremendous amount of economic activity happening in this province.

Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, tomorrow is the day that all Leaders have been invited to address the educators of Manitoba at a conference called The Future of Public Schools. My question to the Acting Premier: is the Premier of Manitoba going to be in attendance at this important conference talking about the future of public schools?

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Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I understand the Manitoba Teachers' Society will be hosting a panel tomorrow, and it would be my hope that I would be able to speak for the government of Manitoba in respect to matters related to education at that panel. It is not clear to me today whether I am invited or not invited, but I am certainly available and hope to take part in that very, very important discussion because I know that the people of Manitoba want to know the position of the governing party of Manitoba in such a discussion, and I would hope to be taking part.

Ms. Mihychuk: To the Acting Premier: can you explain why your party has decided not to attend this important conference when the Leaders of the NDP and the Liberals have both confirmed and only the Conservative Leader has refused to confront or face educators of Manitoba? Why will he not show up?

Mr. McCrae: Just a few short weeks ago the Leaders of the various political parties in Manitoba participated in a Leaders panel before the Manitoba Association of School Trustees. It was a very good discussion of the positions being put forward by the various parties. The honourable Leader of the Opposition and the Premier took part in that discussion, as did the Leader of the Liberal Party, Dr. Jon Gerrard. I think all in attendance were pleased that the positions of the various parties were put forward.

Similarly, that is possible to happen, that the positions of the political parties can be put forward in the panel discussion sponsored by Manitoba Teachers' Society. I am certainly available and quite willing to speak for the Progressive Conservative Party at that debate. I understand the Leader of the Opposition will be there and Dr. Jon Gerrard. I think the issue that the honourable member for St. James is raising–the issue is whether the people want to hear the positions of the three parties. So the honourable member might want to direct her comments to the Manitoba Teachers' Society to ensure that I indeed would be welcome at that particular debate.

Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): I think the issue is: why is the Premier afraid to face educators of Manitoba, or is it that the Premier thinks public schools and the future of public schools is secondary to his other commitments?

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Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): The implication in the honourable member's questions is quite offensive to me, especially when I know the commitment of the First Minister of this province to the education of our children. It was under this First Minister's leadership that this province took on the next century by making preparations in our school system. It was this First Minister who ensured, through his government and his ministers, that we have a curriculum in Manitoba that is second to none, that we have standards in this province again, that we test to meet those standards. It was this Premier and this administration that made sure that happened.

I do not need any lectures from the honourable member about commitment to education. We on this side do not accept that.

But, more importantly, Madam Speaker, does the honourable member want to have all the parties represented at that discussion or not? If she does, then she might use the considerable influence of her office to ensure that the Manitoba Teachers' Society understands that all three parties ought to be represented at that discussion, because I am ready, willing and quite able to discuss the matters with my colleague the honourable Leader of the Opposition and Dr. Jon Gerrard.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro.

Unlike the Conservatives, who failed to mention the purchase of Centra Gas in the throne speech, Liberals view the expenditure of more than $500 million of public money as important.

Will the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro not admit that the efficiencies and savings claimed for the takeover of Centra Gas by Manitoba Hydro are in fact overstated, as efforts in part were underway to do joint billing before Centra Gas nationalization and that the efficiencies claimed would likely have been achieved independent of the takeover?

Hon. David Newman (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Madam Speaker, quite to the contrary, the business transaction does have sufficient quality that the management and board of directors of Manitoba Hydro are very enthusiastic about this being brought to a conclusion. The main beneficiaries of this are going to be the customers of Hydro and of course the owners of Hydro, the people of Manitoba.

The customers of Hydro are going to benefit from an integrated system of not just billing but of course of having one streamlined management providing energy services, with all the advantages to the customer of having the ability through public education to make informed choices as to what is best for them.

The synergies of having one company, as I indicated, are estimated to be worth $12 million a year. The suggestion that the major competitive advantage in the international marketplace is not for the benefit of consumers is also a problem for the honourable member. The fact is, it means prices will continue to be lower for consumers in Manitoba.

Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, Madam Speaker, I take it the answer is yes, that that was in fact the case, that there were efforts towards joint billing between the two companies.

Madam Speaker, my question then to the Minister responsible for Hydro is: has the government calculated the loss in taxes that Centra Gas is not going to have to pay because of the nationalization of Centra Gas?

Mr. Newman: Madam Speaker, I can tell all honourable members that in giving general approval of the direction that was being taken by Manitoba Hydro, the position was taken by me representing the government that in any calculation of the business case that the factor of taxes not being paid by a private sector corporation, by a public corporation, should not be a consideration in evaluating the business case.

However, the fact is that because of the tax laws of Canada, there is almost like an up-front payment of taxes in one year. So there is triggered a payment to the province of Manitoba and the federal government of something that might approach $30 million, Manitoba something more than that, and something approaching $60 million to the federal government. This is amortized over a period of time, and when that period of time is past, there will be, pursuant to an arrangement with Manitoba Hydro in the form of an agreement, a social dividend to the people of Manitoba from not having to pay those taxes.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, we lost the annual tax loss. The minister did not make reference.

My question to the minister is: given the minister has had so-called independent evaluations, can the minister indicate to us is he prepared to share with the MLAs and in fact Manitobans what the estimated asset value was of Centra Gas, and to what degree is the minister prepared to have public consultation before the Public Utilities Board deals with this?

Mr. Newman: Madam Speaker, of course we are precluded, because there is a negotiation towards a final agreement, from engaging in any public sharing of the detailed information relating to this transaction. We are precluded by the vendor from of course doing that and the constraints that they have as a publicly traded private company. So that is just not possible to do until a deal is consummated.

Also, we have the Public Utilities Board that has a decision pending which might deal with the honourable member's question. So stay tuned and the process will ultimately allow, as the honourable member knows, for public participation. The standing committee of this Legislature, ultimately, through elected members, all parties can participate in an open, public discussion of this.

We have made sure that there will be an open access to information. That was one of the conditions of the whole transaction.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): My question is to the Acting Premier.

I am just wondering if now that the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Newman) has confirmed the social dividend of public ownership of the gas company, whether the Acting Premier will now confirm that we in the New Democratic Party were absolutely correct when we said there was a social dividend to public ownership of the Manitoba Telephone System. And will the Acting Premier also explain his government's stand through its four appointments on the board for MTS, which is now seeking a huge rate increase because of the loss of the social dividend, seeking a rate increase because of the loss of the taxes?

I wonder if he might explain why they did one thing on MTS and are doing another thing on Centra Gas.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Deputy Premier): Here is where we differ from members opposite because we assess each individual corporation, each individual situation on its merits at a particular point in time.

Obviously, the steps taken today with the acquisition of Centra by Manitoba Hydro is the right thing to do in terms of the kinds of services that can be provided to all Manitobans, unlike members opposite, who are driven solely and purely by socialist ideology, which is government ownership at all costs, no matter what it does to services, no matter what it does to cost, no matter what it does to rates.

We need just think back to their management of Crown corporations in the province of Manitoba and the fiascos we had with Manitoba telephone services and the losses there and the mishandling of Manitoba Public Insurance, and so on. When it came to Manitoba telephone services, that was a company that 70 percent of their business was going to be in competition. They had significant financial requirements. There were a number of reasons to make the changes, and today Manitoba still has the lowest residential telephone rates in all of Canada.

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Incredible, Madam Speaker. At the same time this government has introduced a new policy on child care centres in schools, school divisions are offloading this government's cuts of $482 per pupil onto nonprofit child care centres in schools. I want to ask the Minister of Family Services if she thinks it is acceptable under their new policy for children to offload the costs of education onto nonprofit child care centres by having school divisions charge rent.

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for that question. I do know that school divisions right across the province of Manitoba have different policies on what they allow to happen within their school buildings and their school facilities. I know that very often school divisions and elected school boards make decisions that sometimes are not in the best interests of the families that they serve within their communities. I would strongly encourage and I have encouraged those parents who need support for child care within communities and those who are working within the child care system to strongly make their voices heard among their elected school officials who set the policies within divisions. If those school trustees are not representing the interests of their constituents, they should be replaced by others who will make the right decisions for the right reasons in their own school divisions.

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Ms. Cerilli: I want to ask the Minister of Education or the Minister of Family Services to clarify their new policy on child care centres in schools which states, and I quote: any agreements reached between host schools and child care facilities will require a demonstration of a partnership between child care facilities and school divisions as opposed to a landlord-tenant agreement. This approach serves to address some concerns with respect to rental costs.

Does this mean that school divisions can no longer charge rent to nonprofit child care centres located in their schools?

Mrs. Mitchelson: I thank my honourable friend for that question. Again, it does allow me to indicate quite frankly that we have schools right within our communities that could play a greater role in ensuring that they are meeting the needs of the families that live in those communities.

Madam Speaker, I do want to indicate that, in the past, the old, flawed NDP policy on construction of new schools and building of child care facilities, whether there was a need in the community or not, was a top-down driven policy that did not work. The policy that we have in place today is working with the community. Where the community–

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable minister, to complete her response.

Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Where the community and the parents who live within that community identify a need for child care facilities and there is a renovation of a school or a new school being built, we are encouraging that community to work in partnership with the school division. Instead of the school division being the landlord and the child care facility being the tenant, we are asking them to be equal partners in ensuring that families and communities that need child care can access that service.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, Madam Speaker, that sounds like very nice rhetoric, but what parents in Transcona are wanting to know is does this new policy mean that they are going to have fees increased and the offloaded cost to education put on to their nonprofit child care centre in the form of a rent increase. Are you saying that it is completely acceptable under your policy for parent fees and child care centres in schools to be going up?

Mrs. Mitchelson: I have to indicate to my honourable friend that it has nothing to do with the policy that was announced and articulated, her comments the other day. Madam Speaker, I do not think that the families and the parents who are going to be receiving child care as a result of this policy at Montrose School and the people at Dieppe School and Sunnyside daycare think that our policy and our government's decisions are rhetoric when in fact they are getting the quality child care within their communities that they deserve as a result of working together in partnership to make that happen.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): To the Minister of Justice: would the minister confirm whether his department has recently paid money out of a disputed fund held in the court to several immigrant investors, but a big mistake was made; these investors were overpaid, I understand, by over $100,000? If in fact that has occurred, what steps is the government taking to ensure that this money is recovered?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I understand that there is an issue with respect to the payment to certain individuals of funds owing them, and my department is in fact looking at that particular issue.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Well, I ask the minister if he would assure Manitobans that taxpayers are not on the hook for this and that the government is going after that overpayment, or is the money long gone--I understand as far as Hong Kong?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, not only would I wish to reassure Manitobans that the department is in fact taking care of its responsibilities, but I certainly want to reassure myself that the department takes every appropriate step, and if there are ever any discrepancies, that those discrepancies and the reasons why they occurred are explained very clearly to me.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Well, can the minister assure Manitobans in this House that he is taking steps to ensure that this does not happen again, and indeed is he addressing the question as to whether this represents a more widespread problem in the court's administration? Is there a problem of lack of supports for staffing and technology, for example?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I thank the member for that question. I know that the department has received numerous changes that enable it to better perform services, additional technology. I am sure that that incident is in fact an isolated incident, and that the cause for that is being examined and any steps that can be taken to ensure that any discrepancies are rectified will be examined.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.