Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon twenty-one Grades 11 and 12 students from St. Maurice School under the direction of Mr. Shaun McCaffrey and Miss Maria Marasco. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Vodrey).

Also, ninety Grade 7 students from Stanley Knowles School under the direction of Miss Joanne Kroemer. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, it has been reported today that there is a plan from the City of Winnipeg, CentreVenture plan, a dynamic set of ideas to deal with housing, entertainment and attracting people to downtown Winnipeg, the capital city of our great province of Manitoba.

I would like to ask the Premier: has his government been involved in discussions with the city, and what is their position on these ideas and plans for the future of the city?

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Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Of course, the health and vitality of the city of Winnipeg is important to all of us in Manitoba. The throne speech speaks to that in terms of our willingness and desire to continue the efforts to revitalize Winnipeg, particularly the downtown area. We, of course, entered into the tripartite Winnipeg Development Agreement, a $75-million, five-year plan that included significant development and contributions towards the revitalization of the centre of Winnipeg. I know from my discussions with the mayor that he is very much aware of how many of the economic programs and initiatives of this government have contributed towards the strengthening of Winnipeg's central downtown area. Certainly we have, through ourselves and our Crown corporations, moved thousands of jobs out of the suburbs and into the centre of the city and helped to dramatically begin the effort of revitalizing what was becoming a very serious area of deterioration. We have not been directly involved in the development of this plan and so I have not personally seen it, nor do I believe our Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Reimer) has. We will be very interested in seeing it and working with the city to develop a co-ordinated and co-operative response.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, I know the government would also be responsible for developing its own vision for the downtown area of the city of Winnipeg, so I would like to ask the Premier what is his vision and how close is the proposal that was released today by the city to the provincial vision for the ability to bring more people downtown in terms of entertainment, housing and other developments that will excite the dynamic nature of our city.

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, as the member opposite knows, it takes more than just doing capital works. He was a member of a government that spent tens of millions of dollars on the North Portage redevelopment but at the same time, in co-operation with others, saw many, many hundreds and thousands of jobs move out of the core of the city. We have done the reverse, and indeed we have created a circumstance whereby in the telecommunications field there are probably 5,000 or 6,000 jobs that are created in the downtown area. This is people who are there for a considerable period of the day. They are there in the evening; they are there longer periods of hours. They are shopping in the stores; they are eating in the restaurants; they are making access to all of the amenities.

We are involved with taking 30,000 square feet, I believe, for the Department of Health in a revitalized heritage building that is being redone. We have another request for proposal that I believe will see some 15,000 square feet and the Department of Family Services down in the core area bringing hundreds of people there throughout the period of the day and the evening so that we will get the vitality, we will get the revitalization. We will ensure that we are doing the right things to get the core area of Winnipeg revitalized, unlike what was done by the member opposite when he had a chance as the Minister of Urban Affairs.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, I had the privilege of working with former Minister Epp and former Mayor Norrie on the planning with the public of The Forks. I was pleased to see that this government carried on with those plans, and I think we should start taking the high road about our city and the need to revitalize our city, unlike the shots opposite.

I would like to know, besides telemarketing jobs, what entertainment proposals, what proposals for housing–we were involved in the Ashdown warehouse–what other proposals for transportation are part of the provincial vision?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the University of Winnipeg is taking over the Citadel building and going to be creating opportunities for expansion of its performing arts and film industry training. We have by way of recreation a ball diamond becoming very close to completion in the downtown area. We have literally hundreds of jobs, the entire Workers Compensation operation centralized there, the jobs for the Department of Health, jobs for the Department of Family Services. I certainly am an admirer of Minister Epp and former Mayor Norrie. They just needed a better partner.

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Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, we have raised the questions of skill shortages in Manitoba and Winnipeg on a regular basis in this House. But it is not just the opposition who is raising this, but also the Canadian Federation of Independent Businesses, the construction industry, Duff Roblin, and CIBC have all expressed concerns over many, many years.

I would like to ask the Minister of Education to confirm the most recent KPMG report on Winnipeg which concludes that there is a serious and growing shortage of skilled people for high-tech industries and that the growth of some industries, and hence Winnipeg itself, is constrained by this continuing shortage of skilled labour.

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): We certainly recognize the challenge implicit in the honourable member's question, but I do say it is a very, very different environment from the one we had in the mid-'80s when there was massive unemployment in our province to today when we have jobs looking for skilled people.

We are pleased to have been part of the development of that "problem," and we are also very pleased to be part of the solution, for example the college growth fund which is enjoying this year an infusion of $4 million so that we can put another 1,000 students to work in our college institutions in Manitoba to meet the very demand that we helped create as a government. In addition, it is important to have colleges, universities and the workplace working closely together, which might be something new to honourable members opposite, but it is seen by us on this side as being the solution and something that will create opportunity in the future. That fund is amounting to $1.3 million in terms of strategic measures to be taken in the post-secondary sphere.

Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, the real issue is the decade of neglect of this government.

I would like to ask the minister: could the minister tell us why after 11 years in power the government's own report from the Economic Innovation Council last year directed the government to (1) initiate human resource policies to improve information technology training, and (b) even directed them to produce an annual report forecasting supply and demand in this area? Surely, these are fundamental things a government should have done over 11 years in power.

Mr. McCrae: Well, Madam Speaker, I will be so pleased to compare the performance of the past 11 years with the performance of the six and a half years previous to that. I cannot wait to be engaged in a discussion whereby the people of Manitoba can be reminded of the progress of the last few years.

Ministers on this side of the House can speak more eloquently than I about the growth in capital investment, about the growth in exports from our province, about the growth in value-added industries throughout this province, and all of the jobs that has created, bringing us to the point where we need to have a college growth fund and we need to have responses like that. They are not only responses, they are also on the leading edge, getting people ready for the kinds of high-paying, high-tech jobs.

I remind the honourable member what Nuala Beck said recently when she told us that some 39 percent of Manitobans were involved in high-end, high-education employment and compared that with the rest of the world and found only one anywhere in the world that was any better than Manitoba and that–

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

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Ms. Friesen: Could the Minister of Education tell us how he has measured not just the decade of neglect but the five years of actual cuts to colleges and universities, in one year amounting to $22 million, the continuing cuts in actual dollars to public schools? How has that impacted upon the future of Winnipeg and upon the provision of a skilled labour force for this province?

Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I find it quite incomprehensible that the honourable member for Wolseley can expect to be believed when I see the progress that has been and is being made in Manitoba. Here we are, just at the tail end of some of the worst economic problems that governments face and providing funding for our college sector to put 1,000 more students to work at their studies in this coming year, fully doubling, for example, the numbers of places at ACC for licensed practical nursing. These things are happening–

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Education and Training, to complete his response.

Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, it might be remarkable to many but not to me that this is happening so soon after the second worst recession in the history of this century in this country, after the massive cutbacks coming from our federal government in respect to health and post-secondary education, and all the while this government has had to carry the debt, the burden of debt to financing left to us by honourable members opposite. Still we are able to make these improvements in our education system.

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, at the beginning of this decade the Fire Commissioner's office provided fire code inspections for some 700 Manitoba schools at no cost to the school divisions. Effective April 1996, the government designated the Fire Commissioner's office as a special operating agency with the mandate to provide inspections on a fee-for-service basis, on a profit basis. It is our understanding that many Manitoba schools have not been inspected since at least 1996 when the government last changed the mandate of the Fire Commissioner's office. I want to ask the Minister of Education to confirm that some Manitoba schools have not had fire code inspections performed by the Fire Commissioner's office or other qualified inspectors in at least four years. Is this your new policy of only inspecting what can make money, not what is right for public safety?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I do not have at my fingertips the information respecting where, when and how frequently inspections are done, so I will obtain information and make it available to the honourable member.

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Mr. Reid: Can the Minister of Labour then, since the Minister of Education does not know, explain why the Fire Commissioner's office is now making a profit by offloading the costs of fire code inspections on to personal care homes, on to daycares and on to schools? Is this the way you run your government?

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Labour.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind all honourable members this is not a time for debate. This is Question Period, and the honourable Minister of Labour was recognized to respond to the question asked.

Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Labour): Madam Speaker, I thank the member opposite for that question, because that gives me an opportunity to tell members here the new role of the Fire Commissioner's office in Manitoba.

The Fire Commissioner's office has become a resource in order to instruct municipalities to offer opportunity for municipal officials to learn how to do the fire inspection function in Manitoba. They have a college out in Brandon which does a very fine function out there.

Madam Speaker, I commend members opposite to find out more about the Fire Commissioner's office and the fact that they are the source of information, skill and resource in order that the safety and fire inspection of premises be done on a local level.

Mr. Reid: Since those two members do not know, I pose my third question to the Premier, Madam Speaker.

Will the Premier explain why the Fire Commissioner's office can provide services to Libya, to Cuba, to Chile, to Brazil, to Argentina, but they cannot ensure that the inspections of our very schools to which our children go every single day are inspected by the Fire Commissioner's office? Is this the way you operate your government?

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, because I take that matter as a serious issue, I will take the matter as notice and have the information that the member opposite has brought forward verified as to its accuracy and have the Minister of Labour bring back the answer.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, one of the sorriest periods in Manitoba history of course was the occasion of the 12 deaths of the children at the Health Sciences Centre Children's Hospital. In September when the inquest after four years wound up, the head of the inquest said, and I quote: I believe I will be able to formulate and finalize the report within the next few months, and some time early in the new year the report, I anticipate, will be delivered.

My question to whomever minister wishes to respond is: can you please update us as to the exact status of that report with respect to the 12 deaths at Children's Hospital, insofar as it is very crucial to the planning of the hospital system and all of the changes that are anticipated in the next few years?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, that report has not been received as of yet. I am certainly prepared to follow up again when it can be anticipated. I gather from the most recent information I have been provided that it is still a few months before the report will be completed. But I am prepared to certainly look into the matter one more time and get back to the member opposite.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the minister might also report to the House, since we have been contacted by several of the parents in this regard who had anticipated at least recommendations from the report would be finalized, whether the minister can inquire whether or not recommendations with respect to the report can and will be forwarded in the near future so that these matters can be dealt with. It has been long standing, as we all know, for a long time, and clearly this issue should be dealt with as quickly as possible.

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Mr. Stefanson: Again, certainly as part of my follow-up on the status of the report and various aspects and nature of what one can expect, I am certainly prepared to undertake the request from the member opposite, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): My final supplementary to the minister is: since significant changes are taking place with respect to Children's Hospital and some recommendations that we have made, such as the interim intensive care beds that are being anticipated be put in place, can the minister indicate whether or not the planning with respect to Children's Hospital and accountability in the hospital function in general will be reviewed in light of this report, which will obviously have recommendations dealing with accountability and other matters as it relates to the operations of hospitals in Manitoba?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I am glad the member acknowledges some of the announcements recently relative to some changes in terms of the intensive care unit for pediatrics at the Health Sciences Centre which is part of that. There are also going to be some additions of additional equipment required, an echocardiogram and other additions and improvements. But his specific question as to the relationship to the full-scale development of the Health Sciences Centre, I am certainly prepared to look into the issue of how any other changes might interact with what will be ultimately a hundred-million-dollar renovation and rejuvenation of the Health Sciences Centre.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I look to the Minister of Health in the hope that he will acknowledge that the expectations built up by this government when it announces a capital program in excess of hundreds of millions of dollars–that they look to the government to be straightforward and honest with what they really and truly expect to construct.

My question to the Minister of Health: does the government have guidelines in terms of criteria in terms of getting the projects off the ground, the shovel to be hitting the soil? Part of that is that 20 percent. My question to the Minister is Health is: what percentage of the programs that are in that capital program actually have the community resources raised which would initiate the beginning of those programs?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, as I indicated to the member the other day, a good number of the capital projects, the $123-million health capital projects that were just recently announced will not require any community contribution. I have also indicated that to the best of my knowledge, with the number of capital projects that are currently underway across Manitoba, the community contribution has not been an impediment because communities are able to make that contribution, in most cases an up-front contribution of 10 percent through a number of options and funding sources. I am certainly prepared to provide the member with detail as to which projects on that listing will require a community contribution, and I will undertake to do that.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, a supplementary question for the Minister of Health in the sense that, given that there already has been four announcements with respect to the Emerson health care facility, can he indicate to this Chamber when they actually initiated any sort of fundraising to get their percentage requirements?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, let us first of all recognize that in Manitoba there has always been a form of community contribution. If you go back several years, it used to be 50 percent. Then it became that you had to contribute serviced land and other amenities to the facilities. Now the policy is that the total project is costed out, including the serviced land and so on, and then there is a community contribution of 10 percent if it is done up front or 20 percent if it is done over ten years interest free. So, again, when we look at Emerson, that is a $5-million project approximately. The community contribution will be on an up-front basis of about $500,000. If the community owns the land, which I believe is the case there, they will get credit for the land being contributed against that cost. Again, they then have options to look at any foundation funds that are in place. They have options to raise within the community and the surrounding area. They have the options of having the municipalities make a contribution. Again, communities have played a very active role in all of these policies, and I think that has been very healthy in terms of being absolutely certain we are getting the most appropriate facility in place in all of our communities right throughout Manitoba.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I am sure the Minister of Health can appreciate that the expectation is–

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Inkster was recognized for a final supplementary question to which there should be no preamble.

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Mr. Lamoureux: Can the Minister of Health indicate to this House how much of that 10 percent actually has been raised, given that it does have an impact with respect to what the community's expectations are in terms of what this government's real intent is? So, in fairness to them, indicate to the House what the current status is.

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I can certainly undertake to determine the current status, but I think the member opposite has to recognize in the development of health capital projects we obviously work with the communities, we work with the regional health authorities within their region. They prioritize the various health capital projects. The Department of Health works with them in terms of determining the final allocation, the final projects that are going forward. Certainly, from the Central Regional Health Authority, the Emerson facility is one of the highest priorities. So we have made a commitment to that project. I do not see the community contribution being an impediment for all of the reasons that I have outlined already. It has not been an impediment in any other area. Quite the opposite. Communities are ready, enthused and prepared to get on with their capital projects. We certainly expect that to be the case in the community of Emerson.

Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, I have some questions for the Minister responsible for Lotteries. Two years ago the government released a First Nations gaming policy review, and this review stated that consolidation and refurbishment of Club Regent and McPhillips Street Station was expected to be completed by the spring of 1999.

I would like to ask the Minister responsible for Lotteries as to the state of negotiations with First Nations in Manitoba especially with respect to gaming. I would like to ask him to what degree the negotiations have been occurring with the First Nations of this province.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, there are two particular issues in that area. One, of course, is the issue of aboriginal casinos; the second, of course, are a number of First Nations who, when the first freeze and reduction in VLTs came, were caught in a situation in that freeze because they were in the process of having their gaming agreements as First Nations concluded with the provincial government. So there are two sets of particular issues. We have had recommendations made from a variety of committees and sources, and cabinet is still in the process of making decisions on these issues before we get into negotiations if they are warranted with the respective First Nations.

Mr. Robinson: Madam Speaker, Saskatchewan has a model where an agreement was reached and signed four years ago and has had some success with bringing jobs, development and revenue to First Nations communities. I would like to ask why this government has been the only western province not to have an agreement on a First Nation casino in the province of Manitoba.

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, Manitoba was one, if not the first, jurisdiction, I believe, to begin the process of entering into gaming agreements with First Nations. Although those did not involve, in themselves, the casinos, they did establish a mechanism for First Nations to where they so chose within their jurisdictions to be involved in gaming. As I think the member is very well aware, the issue of expansion of casino operations in this province is one that has had a great public debate, and obviously I think we all have to be somewhat cognizant of the feeling of Manitobans with respect to this issue. As I have indicated, a decision has not yet been made as to how we as a province will proceed on this matter.

Mr. Robinson: Madam Speaker, it is widely known that Manitoba probably has more VLTs per capita than any other province in Canada in First Nations communities. It is also estimated that 20 percent–

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member please pose his question.

Mr. Robinson: I am trying to pose a question, Madam Speaker.

It is estimated that 20 percent of the patrons of the Regent Street and McPhillips Street Station are aboriginal people. My question is simply this: is there a fear that in the event there is a casino operated by First Nations people it would give competition to the Province of Manitoba?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I would indicate very clearly to the member that that is not a fear at all. In fact, if one looks at the development of gaming in our province, I think there are now some 600 tour buses a year that frequent our province, bringing people in from outside to participate in gaming, and it is estimated that there is at least another 400 potential tour buses coming into our province. So the industry is one that has had some growth driven by people from outside of our jurisdiction coming here to enter into gaming.

Madam Speaker, I think the whole concern for any government dealing with this particular issue is the feelings of Manitobans. There is a debate among Manitobans about gaming, how much, concerns about the effects of gaming, and I am sure that the leadership in the First Nations community must experience the same debate too within their communities. It is a very difficult issue, I think for all of us in public life, to wrestle with because there is such a great variety of points of view, all of which have some very legitimate concerns on both sides of the argument.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, responding to an issue I took as notice from the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) the other day.

The other day the member for Crescentwood tabled information in this House having to do with an issue of weight loss for patients at the Deer Lodge facility. I undertook to look into the matter and to get back. I would like to table some information, a release from Deer Lodge and the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, for this House. It outlines that the new food service at Deer Lodge is not causing weight loss. It goes on to say that: "There has been no change in weight patterns among residents of Deer Lodge Centre since the new food service was introduced." A second weight audit was conducted last week by the Winnipeg Hospital Authority Rehab/Geriatrics Team, who obviously are the experts in this area, at Deer Lodge as a response to some suggestion. "The results of the audit were consistent with weight patterns of a long-term and geriatric care centre." In fact, "the average weight loss was greater before the USSC food was served at Deer Lodge." I quote–

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Health, to complete his response.

Mr. Stefanson: It is a very serious issue, Madam Speaker, and Dr. Elizabeth Boutscha, the medical director of the geriatrics team, says: "'Results have been consistent. For those who have chronic illness, there is an inevitable loss of weight associated with physical and cognitive decline. Many clients take medications that can affect weight." For example, certain of them lead to weight gains, others lead to weight losses, and she outlined the changes over that period.

But I think what is equally as important is out of the 36 records that were tabled by the member for Crescentwood, only three had no errors. So the information provided was either inaccurate or manipulated or that was done by the member opposite, because it is absolutely incorrect. Less than 10 percent of the information provided had any degree of accuracy, and that is absolutely fundamentally wrong. When we come to this House–

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Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, I thank the minister for tabling the information which I actually received yesterday and which I note–actually on the page he was quoting from–absolutely to the tenth of a pound confirms the data that we released last week, to the tenth of a pound: from July '98 to October '98 average weight loss, 2.5 kilograms, exactly 5.4 pounds, which is exactly what we tabled, to the tenth of a pound.

Will the minister confirm that far–

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Crescentwood, to quickly pose his question now.

Mr. Sale: Will the minister confirm that far from an acceptable state of affairs, the continuing weight loss has now caused Deer Lodge Centre's staff to order a very wide range of blood work and other tests to ascertain why patients in that facility have lost on average 22 pounds since last July? Will he confirm that diagnostic work is now underway?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, it is shameful what this member does, because again, he is absolutely wrong with what he says that the average that they showed in that chart that they tabled was 5.4 pounds; in fact, the average is 1.6 pounds, a significant difference. He only had three right out of 36. Out of 36 records, he had three right, less than 10 percent. What kind of an accuracy ratio is that? That is pathetic. So either the information was incorrectly provided to him, or he is either incompetent in terms of bringing it here, or he manipulates it when he brings it here. In either case, that is absolutely unacceptable. When we bring information to this House, it should be accurate, particularly when we talk about health care issues and the health care of the citizens of Manitoba.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the minister explain to the House how data that is tabled with numbers against patients, no names, no initials, no identifying information, no ward identified, how is he able to tell this House that there are any errors in this data, and how can he explain that the data show a weight loss from November to March of 5.4 pounds on average, exactly what the data from Deer Lodge shows, precisely?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, put quite simply, obviously Deer Lodge, the WHA, the physicians, everybody involved, took this issue very seriously, and they dedicated the resources to go and try to track down what the source of this information was, even though, again, members opposite like to bring anonymous information. They will not bring any sourcing of it.

They were able to determine what the source of these 36 records were. They were able to determine that only three out of the 36 were accurate, and again–

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Health, to quickly complete his response.

Mr. Stefanson: Well, again, Madam Speaker, so they were able to confirm that only three out of 36 were accurate, a pathetic performance on the part of the member opposite, and one can only wonder what his objective is but nothing better than to try and scare people, to try and scare families. That is absolutely shameful when it comes to the health care of Manitobans.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.