LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF
Thursday, May 13, 2004
The House met at 1:30 p.m.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
Highway 227
Mr. Ralph Eichler (
These are the reasons for this petition.
It is unacceptable for
the residents of
Inclement weather can make Highway 227 treacherous to all drivers.
Allowing better access to
Highway 227 would ease the flow of traffic on the
Residences along Highway 227 are not as accessible to emergency services due to the nature of the current condition of the roadway.
The condition of these gravel roads can cause serious damage to all vehicles, which is unacceptable.
Residents of
We petition the Manitoba Legislative Assembly as follows:
To request that the Minister of Transportation and Government Services to consider having Highway 227 paved from the junction of highways 248 and 227 all the way to Highway 16, the Yellowhead route.
To request the Premier of
Manitoba to consider supporting said initiatives to ensure the safety of all
Manitobans and all Canadians who travel along
Submitted on behalf of
Carl Fleury, Shirley Fleury, Stacy Sorenson and others.
Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House, and this will mean for all future petitions.
Minimum Sitting Days for
Legislative Assembly
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (
The background to this petition is as follows:
The Manitoba Legislature sat for only 37 days in 2003.
Manitobans expect their Government to be accountable, and the number of sitting days has a direct impact on the issue of public accountability.
Manitobans expect their elected officials to be provided the opportunity to be able to hold the Government accountable.
The Legislative Assembly provides the best forum for all MLAs to debate and ask questions of the Government, and it is critical that all MLAs be provided the time needed in order for them to cover constituent and party duties.
Establishing a minimum number of sitting days could prevent the government of the day from limiting the rights of opposition members from being able to ask questions.
We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows:
To request the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba to consider recognizing the need to sit for a minimum of 80 days in any given calendar year.
Signed by J. Cannon, D. Normand, and R. Richard.
Mr. Speaker: Before recognizing the honourable Member for Charleswood, I would like to ask the House if I could have agreement to instead of repeating after every petition, "when a petition is read it is received by the House," if I could just do it once after the first petition which would be applicable to the rest of the petitions for each day. Could I have agreement of the House?
Some Honourable Members: Agreed.
Mr. Speaker: I thank you very much.
Alzheimer's Disease
Mrs. Myrna Driedger
(Charleswood): I wish to present the following
petition.
Alzheimer's is a debilitating disease.
Cholinesterase inhibitors are known to slow or even prevent the progression of Alzheimer's.
The provincial government asked for the development of an Alzheimer's strategy in 2000 and was presented with nine recommendations in 2002, none of which have yet been implemented.
In the absence of a provincial Alzheimer's strategy, the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority put in place a policy in November 2003 whereby Alzheimer's patients entering personal care homes are being weaned from certain Alzheimer medications in a move that the WRHA's vice-president of long-term care has referred to as a financial necessity.
The administrative costs of the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority have more than tripled since 1999, to a total of more than $16 million a year.
In a move that amounts to two-tier medicine, the families of Alzheimer's sufferers in personal care homes may request that the drugs continue to be delivered at the family's expense.
We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows:
To request the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) to ensure that his attempts to balance his department's finances are not at the expense of the health and well-being of seniors and other vulnerable Manitobans suffering from this debilitating disease.
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To urge the Minister of Health to consider reversing his decision to deny Alzheimer's patients in personal care homes access to certain medications.
To request the Minister of Health to consider implementing a provincial Alzheimer's strategy.
Signed by Bernie Goertz, Ron Broten, Dennis Cavanagh and others.
Proposed PLA–Floodway
Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.
These are the reasons for this petition:
The
The Premier of Manitoba plans to subject all work related to the project to a Project Labour Agreement (PLA).
The proposed PLA would force all employees on the project to belong to a union.
Approximately 95 percent
of heavy construction companies in
The Manitoba Heavy Construction Association has indicated that the forced unionization of all employees may increase the costs of the project by $65 million.
The chair of B.C.'s 2010
Construction Leaders Taskforce has stated, "Major industrial projects
built under project labour agreements from the energy sector in
Organizations including the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, the Manitoba Heavy Construction Association, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, the Merit Contractors Association of Manitoba, the Winnipeg Construction Association, the Construction Association of Rural Manitoba and the Canadian Construction Association have publicly opposed the Premier's plan to turn the floodway expansion project into a union-only worksite.
Manitobans deserve an open and fair competition that protects taxpayers from unnecessary costs and respects workers' democratic choice.
Manitobans support the right of any company, both union and non-union, to participate in the expansion of the Red River Floodway.
We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows:
To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider ending his Government's forced unionization plan of companies involved with the Red River Floodway expansion.
To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider entering into discussions with business, construction and labour groups to ensure any qualified company and worker, regardless of their union status, is afforded the opportunity to bid and work on the floodway expansion project.
Signed by R. Fraser, R. W. Powell, R. Gosling and others.
Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach):
I wish to present the following petition to the
Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.
These are the reasons for this petition.
The
The Premier of Manitoba plans to subject all work related to the project to a Project Labour Agreement (PLA).
The proposed PLA would force all employees on the project to belong to a union.
Approximately 95 percent
of heavy construction companies in
The Manitoba Heavy Construction Association has indicated that the forced unionization of all employees may increase the costs of the project by $65 million.
The chair of B.C.'s 2010
Construction Leaders Taskforce has stated, "Major industrial projects
built under project labour agreements from the energy sector in
Organizations including the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, the Manitoba Heavy Construction Association, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, the Merit Contractors Association of Manitoba, the Winnipeg Construction Association, the Construction Association of Rural Manitoba and the Canadian Construction Association have publicly opposed the Premier's plan to turn the floodway expansion project into a union-only worksite.
Manitobans deserve an open and fair competition that protects taxpayers from unnecessary costs and respects workers' democratic choice.
Manitobans support the right of any company, both union and non-union, to participate in the expansion of the Red River Floodway.
We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows:
To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider ending his Government's forced unionization plans of companies involved with the Red River Floodway expansion.
To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider entering into discussions with business, construction and labour groups to ensure any qualified company and worker, regardless of their union status, is afforded the opportunity to bid and work on the floodway expansion project.
This is signed by Ryan Olfert, Rolando Giesbrecht, Orlando Braun and others.
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Pharmacare
Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): I wish to present the following petition.
These are the reasons for the petition.
Pharmacare is a drug benefit program for any Manitoban, regardless of age, whose income is seriously affected by high prescription drug costs.
Under the Doer government, Pharmacare deductibles have been increased by five percent each year for the last three years. As a result of the 15% hike in Pharmacare deductibles, individuals are facing increased costs ranging from $36 to $660 a year. Seniors, fixed- and low-income-earning Manitobans are the most negatively impacted by these increases.
We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows:
To urge the Premier of Manitoba to consider reversing his decision to increase Pharmacare deductibles by 5 percent in Budget 2004,
To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider reducing health care bureaucracy, as previously promised, and direct those savings into sustaining Pharmacare.
To urge the Premier of Manitoba to consider re-evaluating his Government's priorities and to consider suspending his Government's plans to spend $100 million on new VLTs at a time when seniors and fixed-income Manitobans cannot afford medication.
It is signed by E. Pourier, E. S. Piper and M. Dessureault.
Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister of Advanced Education and Training): I am pleased to table the 2004-2005 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for Manitoba Advanced Education and Training.
Hon. Jim Rondeau (Minister
responsible for Healthy Living): I am pleased to
table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for 2004-2005 for
the Departmental Expenditures for Healthy Child
Also I would like to table the Departmental Expenditures for the Manitoba Seniors Directorate.
Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): I am pleased to table the Culture, Heritage and Tourism Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for the Departmental Estimates 2004-2005.
Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Energy, Science and Technology): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for the Department of Energy, Science and Technology for 2004-2005.
Introduction of Guests
Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all
honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us Mr. Nishish Jha from
On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today.
Master Labour Agreement
Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Manitobans have watched with some disgust and some disappointment over this Premier's continued bungling of the floodway expansion project. His refusal to listen to the vast majority of Manitobans who are fundamentally opposed to his plans to force workers to pay union dues and force companies to be part of a union organization is causing undue delay in getting on with the work at hand, which is building the floodway.
His failure to take the issue of forced unionization and forced union dues off the table has, and is, surely causing unnecessary delays as Mr. Wally Fox-Decent prepares his report and has denied all parties the ability to reach an agreement on the floodway expansion project agreement. Mr. Speaker, my question to the Premier: Has he received the report from Professor Wally Fox-Decent?
Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I have not received the report. I will consult with our minister, but I just want to make some corrections on the rhetoric of the member opposite. Firstly, we have continued in our work that was scheduled to take place in 2004 after we reached an agreement which was signed off in November of 2003. We have continued in our design work, particularly dealing with the design of the floodway and its impact upon ground water and wells. We have not lost a moment in terms of that.
Secondly–and the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) asked questions previously about going to a separate federal and provincial process–we have condensed that time through the good offices of Mr. Gilroy from a potential three-year environmental licensing process to a one-year environmental process. The information on the ground water and wells is crucial for the environmental licence.
If we were to proceed
building the floodway now without an environmental licence, we would be
breaking the law. I know some surrogates are suggesting that. Is the member
opposite suggesting the
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Mr. Murray: No, Mr. Speaker. I am suggesting the Premier take forced unionization and forcing non-union workers to pay union dues off the table. That is what I am suggesting.
I think all of us in this House have heard the radio ads and all of us have seen the television commercials that are playing around this issue but perhaps the Premier has not, or if he has, perhaps he is not listening to them the way that he is not listening to the vast majority of Manitobans who tell him to do the right thing and take forced unionization off the table.
I would like to repeat one from the Premier, and I quote, "The clock is ticking, draining weeks and months from the critical job of expanding the floodway." Government says it is a top priority yet they continue to delay, leaving all of us waiting. Let us tell them it is time. It is time to make a decision. It is time to end the fighting. It is time to build a floodway, Mr. Speaker. It is time for the Premier to make a decision. It is time for the Premier to end the fighting. It is time for the Premier to take forced unionization and forced union dues off the table. It is time to get on with building the floodway. Will he do the right thing and take forced unionization off the table?
Mr. Doer: The member opposite tells us to build the floodway. He is telling us to break the law because we do not have an environmental licence. We are applying for an environmental licence based on the new science and engineering work that has been completed. I am surprised the members opposite would be quoting from an ad that tells us to break the law. Surely to goodness in this Legislature we should be following the law.
Mr. Murray: I am surprised, Mr. Speaker, that this Premier was unable to deal
with the business community in
All he had to do was
simply take forced unionization off the table to allow those companies, 95
percent of which in
Now, I am going to ask the Premier, because we have seen in this House, Mr. Speaker, where a committee that he put together to talk about funding of education in Manitoba that spent two years working very hard, one of the recommendations they put forward to this Premier was to increase the provincial sales tax by 1 percent. He stood in this place and he said, no, he would not agree to that.
I want to ask this First Minister: If Professor Wally Fox-Decent brings forward a report that in any way, shape or form talks about forced unionization, will he also say no to that forced unionization, no to that recommendation, and get on with building the floodway?
An Honourable Member: –a seven-year-old's answer.
Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, speaking of seven-year-olds, the little echo from
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An Honourable Member: Grow up, Mr. Premier, grow up.
Mr. Speaker: Order.
Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would point out to the honourable member that this side of the House will be bringing in pension legislation, when we bring it in, that will protect spouses, not like his legislation.
Master Labour Agreement
Mr. Kelvin Goertzen
(Steinbach): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Water
Stewardship has stated publicly that all workers on the floodway expansion
project would be forced to pay union dues. Industry representatives have stated
that this unnecessary provision would add to the cost to
I wonder if the Minister
of Water Stewardship has given even one moment to finding out and doing an
analysis on what the costs of forced union dues would be to taxpayers in
Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Water Stewardship): I am very surprised that members opposite have not acknowledged that there is a very significant amount of work that is ongoing. In fact, we made a very significant announcement that members opposite, I thought, would have been asking questions about, the design of the floodway, which, thanks to the excellent engineering work being done by the engineering consultants and by the Floodway Expansion Authority, is going to result in deepening of no more than two feet compared to the original design of no more than six feet.
You can ask the Member
for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), who raised this question yesterday, how important that
is to his constituents. It is also important to constituents in
We are continuing with the work and, indeed, that will be done with the same budget we have been talking about all the way along. So the members opposite who keep tabling petitions saying the floodway may be built, I can tell them it will be built. We are doing the preparatory work now and we are ensuring it will be built, unlike turning it into a political football as they have.
Mr. Goertzen: Mr. Speaker, either the minister did not listen to the question or
he simply does not care to hear the question. I did not ask about the design of
the floodway. I did not ask about the depth of the floodway. I asked about what
the additional costs to the
Has anybody in his department, has the minister even cared to look what the cost to the taxpayers would be if there is a suggestion for forced union dues on the floodway? What would that kickback cost, Mr. Speaker?
Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, members opposite may not have noticed–
Mr. Speaker: Order. I have not recognized the honourable member yet.
Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I am just very anxious to answer the question. In fact, my apologies.
Mr. Speaker, I want to indicate that Wally Fox-Decent, who is a very well-respected Manitoban, has been working with all the stakeholders. Due to some personal circumstances, Mr. Fox-Decent has, in fact, had to cancel a number of other obligations. We all hope that he will be in a position to provide that report soon and will provide us some clear direction based on the stakeholder input which is very important.
I want to stress to the member opposite again, the working data work on the environmental work, the engineering work, and the budget for the floodway remains unchanged. In fact, we are going to be able to stick to that budget and minimize ground water effects.
Those are real issues, Mr. Speaker, unlike the political footballs that members opposite keep trying to recycle in this House.
Mr. Goertzen: Well, the minister said that he was eager to answer the question so it is funny that he did not bother to answer the question. I did not ask about the environmental impact. I did not ask about the depth of the floodway, and I did not ask about the design of the floodway.
What I asked this minister very clearly, and I will ask it again on behalf of all Manitobans: What will the additional costs to the forced union dues on the floodway project be? Has his Government done any analysis on what amounts to a kickback to his union buddies will be? Or has he not even bothered to ask? Or is he incompetent? Or both?
* (13:55)
Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, the floodway remains unchanged, the member opposite did not understand. I would remind him that before he now wants to go back to criticizing the process we put in place, that indeed the Winnipeg Construction Association, the Construction Association of Rural Manitoba, the Merit Contractors and the Heavy Construction Association all urge us to appoint publicly Wally Fox-Decent, to put him in place.
Apparently stakeholders
in
Auto Theft Rates
Reduction Strategy
Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac
du Bonnet): Auto theft rates in
Why has the Minister of Justice not reduced auto theft rates when he has promised us time and time again to do so?
Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Imagine getting lessons from Conservatives on the auto theft rates, Mr. Speaker?
It is my understanding that the auto theft rate last year increased 5.6 percent, a rate that was still lower than 2001. I remind members opposite, when they were in office the auto theft rate increased 285 percent.
Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Speaker, just when we thought auto theft rates could soar no further, they increased another 6.7 percent last year. They probably would have gone even further, except that the police stolen vehicle phone line was busy for three days and those who had their automobile stolen could not get through.
Is this the minister's answer to decreasing auto thefts? Do not answer the stolen vehicle line and therefore it does not form part of the stolen vehicle numbers.
Mr. Mackintosh: I regret that the Opposition would focus an attack on Winnipeg Police Service. Mr. Speaker, I think that is unfortunate. The Winnipeg police, as members know even from the last couple of days, have been most effective at apprehending suspects in some auto thefts, which demonstrates two things, not only the danger of auto theft, but also the dedication of the Winnipeg Police Service in partnership with Manitoba Justice, MPI, Citizens on Patrol, other groups, to deal with this challenge.
But we need no lessons
from members opposite. When auto theft rates were going up almost 300 percent
in
Mr. Hawranik: I ask the Minister of Justice not to deflect the blame to the
Winnipeg Police Service but to accept full responsibility for increased auto
thefts in 2003. In 2003, the number of stolen vehicles in
Mr. Speaker, is this the
Justice Minister's strategy to decreasing crime in
Mr. Mackintosh: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think the members are concerned about the
operations of Winnipeg Police Service. I will certainly pass on that to the
police. We have formed a good partnership with our police agencies in
I want to remind members
that this Government has brought in the toughest car theft legislation in
Emergency Room Services
Overcrowding
Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): On Easter Monday, my constituent, Stephen Fielding, took an ambulance to an emergency room because he was having heart palpitations and breathing difficulties. After being triaged, he was told he would have to wait in a very overcrowded waiting room. He was feeling very unwell so his mom asked if he could lie down on a stretcher. She was told there were no empty stretchers and that Stephen should lie down on the waiting room floor.
I would like to ask the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) how he has been able to say he has fixed hallway medicine when sick patients are now being told to lie down on the floor of an emergency room waiting room.
Hon. Steve Ashton (Acting
Minister of Health): As Acting Minister of Health,
I know that we have more than 200 000 visits to emergency rooms in
I can undertake, Mr. Speaker, to follow up in terms of any particular circumstances that have arisen. Our basic approach as a government, in fact the approach of the entire health care system, is to provide the best possible care to those 200 000 Manitobans, but where problems do occur, we do not sweep them under a carpet. We do look at ways of improving the situation in the future. That is why we have made some very significant progress since 1999 in terms of our emergency wards and particularly in terms of hallway medicine.
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Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, the reason there were no stretchers was because the ER, including the hallways, was full. Yet this Minister of Health likes to pat himself on the back and say that he has fixed hallway medicine.
Can the Minister of Health tell Stephen's dad, who is sitting in the gallery today, why his son was told to lie down on the ER waiting room floor? He was sick. He needed help. He could not sit, and he was told to lie down on the waiting room floor. Can this Government please explain that to Stephen's dad?
Mr. Ashton: I indicated that we take very seriously each and every one of those patients that go into our emergency wards, in fact, anywhere in our hospital system. Mr. Speaker, where we have had incidents in the past, we have responded. We have put in place a whole new system of dealing with that, but what is important is not so much the systems, but recognizing that where you do have 200 000 Manitobans visiting our hospital wards, situations will occur that need to be prevented in the future.
What I will say to the member opposite is please provide me with those details. I will work with the Minister of Health. We will look at what happened and, as we have done in the past, our commitment is to try and improve the health care system wherever possible.
Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, there is absolutely no excuse for that kind of situation to happen in a Canadian hospital. Stephen's mom was so taken aback by the suggestion that her sick son should lie on the floor of the ER waiting room, in fact she felt that they were visiting a hospital in a Third World country.
I would like to ask the Minister of Health if he will now admit and if the Doer government will now admit that they misled Manitobans in the 1999 election when they said they were going to fix hallway medicine in six months with $15 million.
Mr. Ashton: I wondered where the politics would come into the question, Mr. Speaker.
What I would explain would be that if the members opposite had been elected, they had promised a 1% increase for health care. We put in place a 5.2% increase this year. That is $100 million less that would have been in the health care system if they had been in government and, given their record in the 1990s, we do not need any political lectures from members opposite.
I take very seriously, as does every member of this Government, the situation that occurred. If they want to get into the politics, they should recognize that their record of the 1990s is we had people lined up in the hallways. Our commitment was to reduce that. We reduced it by 80 percent. We will not stop until it is down to zero. That is our commitment.
Emergency Room Services
Overcrowding
Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): The attitude of this Government is spend more and get less.
Almost five years ago the Premier (Mr. Doer) and the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) said they would end hallway medicine in six months with $15 million. Today, almost five years later, patients are dying in hospital hallways waiting to be seen and they are being told to lie on the floor to wait for the care that they need. When will this minister and this Government act, take responsibility and fix the problems that exist that they promised to fix five years ago?
Hon. Steve Ashton (Acting Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I indicated very clearly that in terms of the particular circumstances that happened, we take that very seriously. In fact one of the reasons we indicated in 1999 how unacceptable the hallway medicine was, was that there was at that time very little recognition by the members opposite when they were in government that it was even a problem.
We have decreased it by 80 percent despite the fact that we inherited a legacy where they had taken 1500 nursing positions out of the system, a reduction in terms of doctors of more than a hundred. We have, since we came into government, increased the number of nurses by 879. There are 156 more nurses in. We have targeted, particularly the last two years, the shortages of staff in our ERs. We are working very hard, Mr. Speaker.
That does not make what happened acceptable. We will review the specific circumstances, but the members opposite should not lecture us about hallway medicine. They are the ones that left the system in a mess.
Mrs. Mitchelson: Well, I am sure that the Fielding family takes a lot of solace in that kind of arrogant response from the minister.
Mr. Speaker, there is a physician shortage in emergency rooms. There is a nursing shortage in emergency rooms. Patients are dying in emergency rooms waiting to be seen. Patients are being asked to lie on the floor because there is no space for them in emergency rooms. When will this Government and this minister indicate how they are going to fix the system that they promised to fix five years ago? They promised a quick fix. When is that going to happen?
Mr. Ashton: Well, I need no lectures in terms of arrogance. That member was part
of a government for 11 years that allowed the situation to develop in
Mr. Speaker, I indicated to the member who raised the concern, the Member for Charleswood (Ms. Driedger), about the specific circumstances, that we always take seriously each and every one of the patients in our hospitals.
In terms of dealing with shortages in the ERs, we have taken action. We have reduced the nursing shortage by more than 50 percent just in the last number of years alone. We have three more physicians coming through in terms of ERs. We are making a difference, but the bottom line here is again, we take each and every one of those patients very seriously.
What happened in this case, I would like to get more details, and I can assure the members opposite we will look very seriously at what happened. That is what a caring government is all about.
Mrs. Mitchelson: There was a time when lying on a stretcher in a hospital hallway was unacceptable to this Premier. Now it appears to be acceptable to this Premier to lie on a floor in the emergency waiting room. When will this Premier take some responsibility for what is happening in our emergency rooms under his watch and fix what he promised to fix five years ago?
Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): The member opposite and I will be at the
An Honourable Member: Why do you not tell them that at dinner tonight and see what they say?
Mr. Speaker: Order.
Mr. Doer: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I think members in northeast
The whole challenge of dealing with patients in the hallways and in emergency rooms, we now have a management system at noon that kicks in–
An Honourable Member: Lie on the floor. That is how we will manage it.
Mr. Speaker: Order.
Mr. Doer: We have put in place a system where–[interjection]
Mr. Speaker: Order.
Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Winnipeg Regional Health Authority now co-ordinates areas where there are too many patients and too few beds, and other situations where there are beds that are available. The specific–
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Speaker: Order.
* (14:10)
Mr. Doer: The incident that has been raised by the member from Charleswood, I assume that the Minister of Health is investigating because he has been given the opportunity to investigate the specifics. If not, if he is only finding out for the first time in the Chamber, we will follow up. I think there are legitimate questions raised and the family deserves answers, and we will provide that to the family.
Gaming Addictions
Impact on Suicide Rate
Mr. John Loewen (
Mr. Speaker, I would ask them how they can proceed on this expansion of gambling without even bothering to record or to investigate how many Manitobans each year take their own lives as a result of gambling addictions. How can you proceed with this expansion?
Hon. Scott Smith (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Mr. Speaker, I am glad to see at least the Member for Fort Whyte did not do the shoddy work that the member previous, from Steinbach, had done yesterday asking the Minister of Gaming one question, not focussing on lotteries.
Lotteries, I can tell you
the difference between then and now is that side of the House had absolutely
zero policy on responsible gaming in the
Mr. Loewen: This minister believes that responsible gaming is expansion of gambling. He should be ashamed of himself for that.
There are 5300 VLTs in
Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask this minister when he will take the time to do the proper studies, have a socio-economic study, study the impacts of gambling on this province, before he expands gambling operations.
Mr. Smith: Mr. Speaker, I will give you a piece of what their responsible gaming policy was from the member of River East in 1993. Here was the Tories idea of responsible gaming. "Ultimately, people choose whether or not they are going to spend their disposable income on gambling or smoking or drinking. People do ultimately make those decisions. No one is forcing Manitobans to gamble in any way." That was a policy of the Filmon government.
In 2001, under this
Government, the MLC developed a
responsible gaming policy strategy, the first of its kind in
Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, I asked this minister a serious question, and the best he could do is go back to read Hansard from 1993. He ought to be ashamed of himself.
The numbers, the facts, are startling. There are probably 10 to 15 Manitobans that take their lives every year as a result of gambling-related addictions.
Why does this minister, why does the Doer government, continue on the road of expanding gambling without even taking advice of every coroner in Canada who has agreed that this is a serious health issue, has agreed that reports need to be presented to every provincial legislature to indicate how many people die from gambling every year?
Mr. Speaker: Order. I ask the co-operation of all honourable members. It is very difficult to hear the honourable member trying to put his question. I am sure the honourable member appreciates all the help, but I am sure he can put the question on his own. I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. The question that was put, I did not hear it. I would ask the honourable member just to put the question.
Mr. Loewen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
My question to the minister is: When is he going to abide by the information that he has from every coroner across Canada who has indicated that it is essential that provinces start to gather information on how many people commit suicide every year as a result of gambling-related incidences? I want to know when that report is going to be presented.
Mr. Smith: Mr. Speaker, I gave the member from
Mr. Speaker, the Member for
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Speaker: Order. Once again, I would like to ask all honourable members, I need to be able to hear the questions and I need to be able to hear the answers. I am sure members in this House also feel the same. I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please.
Mr. Smith: The reality is the member across is completely wrong. The prevalence
rate in gambling is one of the lowest in
Pension Plans
Withdrawals–Hardship Cases
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (
I am asking for the Minister of Labour (Ms. Allan) to acknowledge that seniors do know better on how to spend money than this Government, and ask in relationship to it the very least of hardship withdrawals. Mr. Speaker, will this Government allow for seniors to access additional monies from their own retirement funds?
Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): It gives us an opportunity today to praise a pioneer who, of
course, came from
Mr. Lamoureux: I have represented areas in which Stanley Knowles is represented and
I can tell you Mr. Premier, you are no Stanley Knowles. Stanley Knowles I do
not even think would have been paying so little attention to such a critical
issue. He had more faith in the seniors knowing how to spend their own money.
He did not say that seniors in
My question to the Premier is: Will the Premier acknowledge in hardship cases that there is a need to allow our seniors to access their funds? It is a simple question.
* (14:20)
Hon. Nancy Allan (Minister
of Labour and Immigration): I would just like to
remind the member opposite that the Government that is going to bring in
pension legislation is an NDP government. This legislation has not been
reviewed for over 20 years. It is this–[interjection]
Mr. Speaker: Order.
Ms. Allan: It has been over 22 years since The Pension Benefits Act has been reviewed. We will take all of the information, we will weigh it very carefully. It is very complex and the legislation that we bring in will stand the test of time.
Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, it is not all that complex. The other provinces have
already done it.
We are not talking about government money. This is their own money which they have invested in retirement funds and there are incidences that, at the very least, this Government should acknowledge in hardship cases where seniors should be able to access those funds. This Government has no business telling these seniors that they do not have a right to their own funds. Shame on this Government. We want this Government to take action. [interjection]
The Premier wants to know who said it. It was the Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) who said it. Mr. Speaker, whoever said it, all we know is that this Government is all in sync. The issue is when are we going to see action on this issue.
Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, unlike the Conservative surrogate that sits behind the
Member for
Mr. Speaker: Order.
Point of Order
Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for
Mr. Lamoureux: I am somewhat sensitive in the issue that the minister, I think, might have attributed me to be a Conservative. I do not think it would be appropriate, given I like to think that I have many friends from all political parties, and for me this particular issue is about our seniors. It is not about a political party.
Mr. Speaker: The honourable First Minister, on the same point of order?
Mr. Doer: Yes, Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order, "Conservative" is not out of order and "surrogate" is not out of order. Therefore, his point of order is without merit.
Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for
* * *
Mr. Speaker: The honourable First Minister, to conclude his comments.
Mr. Doer: We are keeping track of the member's voting record. There is an
accountability. At the end of the day we will add up how many times he is
accountable for his decisions but, having said that, the bottom line is the
bill that is before the House, and it shows you kind of the vacuous kinds of
positions made by the Member for
Mr. Speaker: Order. Members who wish to have a conversation, I see two empty loges. Feel free to use them. Question Period is over. We are going to move on to members' statements.
Speaker's Statement
Mr. Speaker: I was in the Chair this morning when we were dealing with private members' business and there was a resolution that came forward dealing with Sgt. Tommy Prince. Many, many speakers on both sides of the House were talking about and giving their thanks to Sgt. Tommy Prince and war heroes like him and they were saying, well, the democracy we enjoy today, we can thank those veterans.
I always thought one part of the democracy that we enjoy is the freedom of speech, and if that is true, if we all have the right to enjoy freedom of speech, then we should have the right to be heard. Members do not have to like what we say, but we still have the right to be heard. I think it is incumbent on all of us to respect that which is in our rules and also to the respect of the veterans who, like all members said in this House, sacrificed themselves for us to enjoy that kind of democracy. And I know freedom of speech is one of them. I ask all honourable members to think about that and hopefully we will give the courtesy to whoever has the floor. Whether we agree or not, they still have the right to be heard.
Model United Nations
Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski
(St. James): The 2004 MUN, or the Model United
Nations assembly, took place last week here in
As a Rotarian, I am very
proud to say that every year we give Grade 12 students first-hand experience in
the workings of the United Nations. They gain an understanding of the
responsibility of individual citizens for the success of the United Nations and
how to make the United Nations a better understood instrument for world peace. Mr.
Speaker, with the assistance of the Canadian Institute of International Affairs
and the
Because of the success of this initial venture in international service in 1957, Model United Nations Assemblies have been held almost every year since. The Model United Nations Assembly is what the title suggests, a reproduction of the United Nations itself.
* (14:30)
Mr. Speaker, a number of
nations that hold membership in the UN are represented by Grade 12 students.
Students are selected from high schools in
The program has practical education value to both high school and adult participants. It provides each with an opportunity to examine foreign policy and to increase their knowledge of many nations. Mr. Speaker, I would like to recognize the participants and organizers of the 2004 Rotary Model United Nations Assembly. They are truly making a positive contribution to world citizenship.
Junior Wildfire Ringette
Team
Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): I am pleased today to share with this Assembly the success of a very talented ringette team in my constituency, the R.M. of Macdonald, the Junior Wildfire.
In March, the Junior Wildfire, a team made up of young women aged 14 to 16, travelled from the R.M. of Macdonald to St. Jean Baptiste to participate in the provincial ringette finals. I am proud to say the Junior Wildfire brought home the gold medal. Each player on the team played extremely well and worked hard to earn the success they have achieved this season. Throughout the regular season, the Junior Wildfire held first place in the Winnipeg Ringette League, finishing with the bronze medal in the finals.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge each of the players on the Macdonald Athletes Junior Wildfire team: Jackie Dryden, Justine Shirtliff, Cari Penner, Chelsea Anseeuw, Carliegh Friesen, Rachel Campbell, Allison Kirk, Brittany Keddie, Amber Penner, Pauline Ammeter, Erika Friesen, Rhea Dufort, Cindi Lecuyer, Karina Zinn, and coaches Kevin Mackay and Christin Zinn.
It is young athletes like the Junior Wildfire who deserve our recognition not only for their success but for their participation in the community and their inspiration to others. Participating in organized sports promotes health, positive peer relationship and in general an active lifestyle.
Once again, congratulations to all Macdonald Athletes Junior Wildfire team members on their victory in the Provincial Ringette Championships. On behalf of this Assembly, I wish them all the best in future seasons.
Canadian Citizenship
Ceremony
Mr. Cris Aglugub (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure today to bring attention to a very special event that took place this week. This past Tuesday, I attended at the Legislature the Canadian Citizenship Ceremony. The event began with the judge, Arthur Miki, addressing the audience. There was also administration of the Oath of Citizenship, a presentation of Canadian Citizenship Certificates and greetings from the Government of Manitoba by the Minister responsible for Multiculturalism (Ms. Allan).
This event is very
important for us and for those new citizens who come from many corners of the
world, including
Together as a community
with a common humanity, we will face all our challenges, struggle side by side,
preserve the legacy of
The contributions of all
Manitobans have made our province a fine place to live, raise our children and
to grow old. Many new immigrants will continue to contribute to this bright and
beautiful future. Therefore we must celebrate and appreciate our common future,
as citizens of
It is also a time to
remember the importance of freedom and equality for all individuals. Together
we will work toward this common good. I would like to finish by extending warm
and good wishes to all the new citizens of the province and to welcome them to
their new home,
Maurice Butler
Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): I am pleased to share with this Assembly the recent success of one
of my constituents. Maurice Butler, a
former councillor for the town of
Mr. Butler received his
award at the Volunteer Awards banquet on April 21, which I know some honourable
colleagues had the opportunity to attend. Receiving this award was another
confirmation of
At the awards banquet
In addition to his many public involvements, Mr. Butler has also quietly gone about serving Morden residents. In the past few months he has provided transportation and emotional support to people receiving cancer treatments and generally has been willing to help out wherever he was needed.
Mr. Speaker, we all know that volunteers are essential to building strong communities and maintaining many different programs throughout this province. Volunteers give of their time, talents, abilities and creativity in order to serve others. It is people like Maurice Butler who truly deserve our appreciation for their sacrifices, contributions and often-overlooked efforts.
I would also like to take this opportunity to congratulate all the nominees and successful candidates for this year's volunteer award. We know that each nominee has had a positive impact in their local community. On behalf of all honourable members, I wish to extend our congratulations to Maurice Butler on receiving the Lieutenant-Governor's Make A Difference Community Award.
Mr. Harry Schellenberg
(Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, the Concordia Hospital
Foundation's 21st Annual Gala Dinner will be taking place tonight. This
impressive event highlights the leading role of
Currently Concordia
offers service in medicine, surgery, orthopedic surgery, rehabilitation,
geriatrics, critical care, oncology and emergency medicine. The new
state-of-the-art oncology unit was opened in 2001. Concordia will become part
of the
Mr. Speaker, this past
fall
Mr. Speaker, the
The Premier and I
appreciate the co-operation and commitment of the foundation in promoting
health and wellness in the community and meeting new challenges. We also thank
the management and board of
It is an honour to
recognize the good work taking place at
The Premier (Mr. Doer) and I will be attending the event and we invite other MLAs to join us at this annual gala dinner.
Mr. Speaker: Grievances.
Order. Is there leave for the member to finish?
Some Honourable Members: Leave.
Some Honourable Members: No.
Mr. Speaker: Leave has been denied. I heard a no. When I asked if there was leave, I heard a no. Order. We are going to revert back to members' statements because there seems to be a doubt of my hearing. So I am going to test my hearing once more.
Reverting back to members' statements, does the honourable Member for Rossmere have leave to conclude his member's statement?
Some Honourable Members: Leave.
Mr. Speaker: The honourable member has leave so I will get my hearing tested later, but he does have leave.
* (14:40)
Mr. Schellenberg: Mr. Speaker, I thank you, but I had completed my member's statement.
Mr. Speaker: I had already called Grievances, so now we will move on to Orders of the Day.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
House Business
Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I would like to announce that the following–
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I need to be able to hear because we are dealing with government House business. Please. I have to be able to hear.
Mr. Mackintosh: I would like to announce that the following bill will be referred to the Standing Committee on Justice for the meeting previously called for Tuesday, May 18, at 10 a.m., Bill 29, The Public Trustee Amendment Act.
Mr. Speaker, in addition, I would like to announce that the Standing Committee on Social and Economic Development will also meet on Tuesday, May 18, at 10 a.m., to consider the following bills: Bill 9, Manitoba Immigration Council; Bill 14, Gas Tax Accountability; Bill 20, University College of the North; Bill 26, Certified and Management Accountants.
Mr. Speaker: It has been announced that the following bill will be referred to the Standing Committee on Justice for the meeting previously called for Tuesday, May 18, 2004 at 10 a.m., Bill 29, The Public Trustee Amendment Act.
It is also announced that the Standing Committee on Social and Economic Development will also meet on Tuesday, May 18, at 10 a.m., to consider the following bills: Bill 9, The Manitoba Immigration Council Act; Bill 14, The Gas Tax Accountability Act; Bill 20, The University College of the North Act; Bill 26, The Certified and Management Accountants Act.
Mr. Mackintosh: Would you please canvass the House to see if there is an agreement
to change the Estimates sequence such that, for this afternoon, the Estimates
of the Department of Transportation and Government Services will be considered
in Room 255? Further, would you determine if there is agreement to change the
Estimates sequence for Friday so that the Estimates for Advanced Education and
Training be considered in Room 255? Finally, would you see if there is consent
to change the Estimates for Room 254 for Friday so that Healthy Child
Mr. Speaker: Okay. I will deal with them one at a time.
Is there agreement to change the Estimates sequence such that, for this afternoon, the Estimates for the Department of Transportation and Government Services will be considered in Room 255? Is there agreement? [Agreed]
Is there agreement to change the Estimates sequence for Friday, May 14, so that the Estimates for Advanced Education and Training be considered in Room 255? Is there agreement? [Agreed]
Is there unanimous
consent to change the Estimates sequence for Room 254 for Friday, in order that
Healthy Child
Mr. Mackintosh: Would you please call Supply, Mr. Speaker?
Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 23(5), the House will now resolve into the Committee of Supply.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
(Concurrent Sections)
EDUCATION,
CITIZENSHIP AND YOUTH
* (14:50)
Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Education, Citizenship and Youth. As had been previously agreed, questioning for this department will follow in a global manner.
The floor is now open for questions.
Hon. Peter Bjornson
(Minister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): Prior
to the first question, I would like to read for the record some items that we
had taken as notice, the first item concerning
The second item taken as
notice dealt with broadband access and the answer is based on the following
definition of broadband: high speed Internet access provided by a commercial
provider such as a local cable company or Manitoba Telecom Service. Of all the
schools in
Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. The floor is open for questions.
Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): A couple of issues that I would like to raise with the minister, and I am going to just pursue the line that we were on when we last sat, which had to do with transfer of tax credits from municipalities and property owners to the school divisions. I would just like the minister to outline for me the process on how this is actually going to happen.
Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Chairperson, the proposal announced in the 2004 Budget is to provide the resident homeowner advance portion, which is approximately $100 million, directly to school divisions in 2005. As a matter of process, the municipalities will remit the net school taxes collected from homeowners to school divisions. School divisions will show a new provincial revenue line in their budgets and financial statements for the value of the residential homeowner advance and an offset line in equal amount against the municipal tax requirements. There will be no change to the total school division revenues as a result of this process.
Mr. Derkach: Can the minister give me some indication as to the timing of the payments to the school divisions regarding the tax credits?
Mr. Bjornson: They would be paid end of June early July.
Mr. Derkach: So the minister is saying that the entire amount of the tax credit will be paid to the school division for that school division within that catchment area for the entire amount at the end of June.
Mr. Bjornson: That is currently the manner in which the funds are transferred to the municipalities now and when it switches to direct transfer to the school divisions, it would follow the same time frame.
Mr. Derkach: Municipalities collect their taxes throughout a fiscal year. Sometimes taxes are paid on time, sometimes they are paid on a time basis, sometimes they are not paid until the end of the fiscal year, and, yes, they carry some penalty with them but the penalty does not equal the carrying charges that a municipality has for that portion. Can the minister tell me how the municipality is going to be reimbursed for carrying those costs for taxes not collected?
Mr. Bjornson: Well, there is the benefit that municipalities have with taxes added that allows them to collect the taxes assessed that do not have to be paid out to the school divisions. The tax is added to the rolls. So that is one of the benefits that currently exists in the tax structure and the tax rates take into account on collectibles and those in the tax rates as well.
Mr. Derkach: Can the minister explain that please?
Mr. Bjornson: Could I ask for clarification on the question? Are you talking about uncollected taxes? If you could just clarify, restate your question, please.
* (15:00)
Mr. Derkach: Well the minister's answer is not very well defined. I am wondering whether he would expand on his answer so that I could understand exactly what it is he means by the terminology that he has used in terms of how municipalities are going to get compensated for the interest costs that they have to endure as a result of carrying people whose taxes perhaps are not paid on time.
Mr. Bjornson: What is being introduced here does not change anything with regard to the collection or non-collection of taxes under the current rules and regulations for municipalities.
Mr. Derkach: Well, then, I am going to ask the minister again if he would explain the process because he indicated that the grants, or the homeowner tax rebate portion, instead of going to the municipality now, is going to go to the school division, yet the municipality is the one that endures the cost when they give the homeowner the rebate.
Mr. Bjornson: This is not a non-collection issue, as the municipalities would have received the $100-million transfer from the rebate, but now the $100-million transfer from the rebate is simply going directly to the school divisions.
Mr. Derkach: The minister still has not explained the process. The municipality, as I understand it, collects the taxes from the taxpayer as they always do. In the collection of taxes is a homeowner rebate program which is a credit to the homeowner. The department, Mr. Chair, has two ways of funding school divisions: one is the ESL and one is the special levy. The homeowner grant, or the homeowner rebate, is part of the ESL. Is that correct?
Mr. Bjornson: No, the rebate is not part of the ESL.
Mr. Derkach: Is the homeowner rebate program a credit to the ESL or is it a credit to the special levy?
Mr. Bjornson: This is a credit against the special levy.
Mr. Derkach: The homeowner rebate program is a credit against the special levy; that is what the minister said. Now, when the homeowner rebate is received, it is received by the municipality right now.
Mr. Bjornson: That is correct.
Mr. Derkach: The rebate is then forwarded to the school division by the municipality.
Mr. Bjornson: That is correct.
Mr. Derkach: Do the municipalities in total transfer the equivalent of a $100 million today, or do they transfer the equivalent of $179 million? There are no trick questions here. This is straightforward.
Mr. Bjornson: Yes, $100 million is the correct figure.
Mr. Derkach: Can the minister tell me what happens to the $79 million?
Mr. Bjornson: Individuals will pay their taxes and they will receive the credit after, through income tax.
* (15:10)
Mr. Derkach: That is not the question. The question is what happens to the $79 million that is Education funding as well.
Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Chair, it is transferred from the municipality to the school division and it is built into the tax bill, as such.
Mr. Derkach: Could the minister just repeat that answer, because I perhaps misunderstood?
Mr. Bjornson: The money is paid through the tax bill and credited through their income tax. That is the process.
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, either the minister is not understanding my question or he is confused, because what I am asking for is, at the present time, the homeowner rebate portion is worth $179 million in total. The Province has said that it will transfer $100 million directly to school divisions.
That means there is $79 million of credit owed to the school divisions that has to be forwarded to them in a different way. My question is, how is this going to be forwarded to the school division.
Mr. Bjornson: The expenditure level for '04-05 for both the residential homeowner advance and the income tax portion of the property tax credit is approximately $179.4 million as identified. The $100 million goes to the residential homeowner advance which, as I said, had previously been forwarded directly to the municipalities but will now be forwarded directly to the school divisions. The remaining $79.4 million is paid by the individual taxpayer to the municipality and the municipality pays to the school divisions. Individuals are credited with that amount through the income tax system. That would be the process.
Mr. Derkach: I think the minister got it right. So the individual taxpayer being the landlord, because this $79 million I would presume is all rental property, housing and those kinds of units. Rental and seniors basically. Is that correct?
Mr. Bjornson: That is correct.
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, so it is the landlord who pays the taxes and in the rent payment to the landlord it is assumed that part of that is education tax, so the individual who is renting property gets a credit on their income tax statement. Is that correct?
Mr. Bjornson: That is correct.
Mr. Derkach: Having said that, the municipalities do receive that $79 million from the taxpayer.
Mr. Bjornson: Yes, they do.
Mr. Derkach: The taxpayer then gets it back in a rebate program.
Mr. Bjornson: Some of them.
Mr. Derkach: Under the present system, that $79 million is credited to the municipalities by government. Is that correct?
Mr. Bjornson: The only change would be on the residential homeowner advance and nothing changes on the portion of the property tax credit that flows through the income tax system. Nothing changes there.
Mr. Derkach: I am aware of that, but I am asking the minister how that $79 million that is not going to be transferred to the school divisions right now as part of the direct transfer gets transferred to the school divisions after the new process is in place.
Mr. Bjornson: The new process will not change the $79 million in the way that money flows.
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, I want to know from the minister whether or not the total amount of tax credit that a municipality has on its books, total amount of tax credit the municipality gives out to its taxpayers throughout this province equals $179 million. Is that correct?
Mr. Bjornson: The municipal portion is $100 million, approximately $100 million. The municipal tax credit portion is $100 million.
Mr. Derkach: It is my understanding and according to the printed Estimates or the
Budget, the total amount of tax credit in
The Government has said that it is not going to transfer the $179 million, it is going to transfer $100 million of the $179 million directly to school divisions. I want to know how $79 million gets into the hands of the school divisions.
* (15:20)
Mr. Bjornson: Well, what we have here is two different types of tax credits where the $100 million, as I said before, is part of the residential homeowner advance but the 79.4 goes through the income tax system, and again that is something that is paid to the municipality, the municipality then to the school division and credited to the individual through the income tax system.
Mr. Derkach: Either the minister is confused or I am confused. Maybe both. I would just like to ask the minister how the $79 million, it was part of the whole global amount, I do not care how it goes to the individual taxpayer, that is not my issue, my issue is that $79-million portion, how does that get from the Government to the school division?
Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Chair, the $79.4-million portion in question is paid to the municipality by the taxpayer; then from the municipality it is paid to the school division; and then the individual is credited through the income tax system for that balance.
Mr. Derkach: Okay, so let me understand this clearly. The $79 million was always collected by the municipalities from the property owners. The renters got their credit through the income tax system. Therefore, the municipality was the one who was responsible for transferring the money over to the school division because that was not a credit, that was simply taxes collected.
A hundred million dollars in total across the province was money that was paid directly by homeowners, residential people. This same amount of money that was paid to municipalities, the exact same amount of money that was collected by municipalities from the Province previously is now going to be collected by the school division.
Mr. Bjornson: That is correct.
Mr. Derkach: Is the minister telling me that the money used to be paid to municipalities by the end of June?
Mr. Bjornson: I understand it has traditionally been the end of June, early July.
Mr. Derkach: We will not argue about a month here at all. Now that money was then forwarded to school divisions, not immediately, but there was a formula in place where I think the municipalities forwarded the money to school divisions three or four times a year. Is that correct?
Mr. Bjornson: The regulation requires that those funds be remitted to the school divisions 30 days after collection.
Mr. Derkach: That the hundred million dollars be transferred 30 days after it is paid by the Government to the municipalities. Is that what the minister is saying?
Mr. Bjornson: Yes, the regulation requires that 30 days after collecting, the taxes, including the $400 tax credit, would have to have been turned over to the school division.
Mr. Derkach: But that is a play on words, Mr. Chair, because municipalities collect their taxes from taxpayers throughout the year. Now the bulk of them might be paid when they are due, but I know that municipalities report significant amounts of money of taxes not collected that are, in what we might call, they are not in arrears, but they are not collected until sometimes in the later part of the year. My understanding is that, when those taxes are collected, instead of remitting them on a piecemeal basis, there is, I do not know if it is an agreement or a formula, where municipalities submit them to the school divisions at established intervals throughout the year.
Mr. Bjornson: Yes, all taxes collected have to be submitted to the school divisions 30 days after the due date, and there is another deadline for all taxes due to be remitted by January 31.
Mr. Derkach: Well, the minister is telling me taxes due to a school division from a municipality are to be paid 30 days after they are collected.
Mr. Bjornson: Yes, after they are collected.
Mr. Derkach: So is the minister saying that taxes that are collected have to be remitted 30 days after they are collected. Can the minister tell me when the portion that represents the homeowner rebate must be remitted to the school division from the municipality at the present time?
Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Chair, nothing has changed around the regulations for submission of the taxes to the school divisions based on the collection by the municipalities. They are required, 30 days after the due date and the collection, to submit their taxes to the school divisions with the final deadline for all taxes to be submitted the 31st of January. The only difference would be the $400 tax credit flowing directly to the school divisions from the Finance Department as opposed to going through the municipalities.
* (15:30)
Mr. Derkach: The minister is saying that the only difference that is going to take place now is that school divisions will get their money 30 days sooner than they would have had the money been transferred over to the municipality.
Mr. Bjornson: With respect to the $100 million attributed to the $400 property tax credit, that is correct. The school divisions would be getting their money earlier.
Mr. Derkach: Can I ask the minister whether or not the homeowner tax rebate was previously calculated as the Province's contribution to division education programming?
Mr. Bjornson: The education property tax credit was transferred to 2000-2001 and is indicated as such in our FRAME Report.
Mr. Derkach: I think, as the statistics indicate today, the province makes up about 57 percent of education funding. The rest of the money comes from the special levy and other revenues I suppose. Can the minister indicate whether that $100 million was calculated as part of the 57 percent previously?
Mr. Bjornson: No, it was not part of that. The adjusted total in the FRAME Report indicates that it would be part of the 72.2 percent.
Mr. Derkach: Now that it is being transferred directly to the school divisions, is it going to be part of the calculation of that portion of provincial funding of education?
Mr. Bjornson: Yes, it would be indicated as part of the operating fund.
Mr. Derkach: So what would that $100 million translate to in terms of percentage of funding of education in this fiscal year with the relative number right now being at 57 percent?
Mr. Bjornson: It would be 64 percent.
Mr. Derkach: The Government can now, without giving the divisions any more money, claim that its percentage of funding to school divisions has increased from 57 percent to 64 percent. Is that correct?
Mr. Bjornson: This more accurately represents the funding of schools. The intent was for transparency by taking this $400 credit and applying it directly to the school divisions as opposed to going through the municipalities and having the municipalities submit it to the school divisions. We collect that. We take that $400 property tax credit and the $100 million goes directly to the schools, so yes.
Mr. Derkach: The minister said yes, so now we have a situation where, without putting an extra dime into education, the Province can claim that its funding of education has gone from 57 to 64 percent and can claim that this is more transparent and more accountable. Yet they have not spent an extra dime on funding education in a more equitable and fair manner. Is that correct?
Mr. Bjornson: In five years, as you know, we have contributed $105 million into the base. We had a significant contribution to education, and it is a way of acknowledging the realties of how education is funded with respect to the $400 credit that has been applied to offset the support levies as assessed by municipalities. We are reducing our education support levy, so, yes, we are providing transparency and providing a truer picture of how the Province is funding education. Indeed, $105 million into the base is a very significant contribution.
* (15:40)
Mr. Derkach: I am not interested in the minister's smoke-and-mirror answer. I am simply asking for the facts. The fact is that, in this particular instance, we are talking about the tax credit here. Without putting an additional cent into education, the Province can now claim and will claim that its funding support to education has increased from 57 percent to 64 percent, which the minister said yes to and it is done under the guise of the minister's, quote unquote, "transparency and accountability measure."
Mr. Bjornson: This does not change the 72.2 percent as identified in the FRAME budget when you consider capital, the Pensioners' School Tax Assistance and the Teachers' Retirement Allowance Fund contributions. It does not change that figure. It simply provides more transparency in how we are funding education.
Mr. Derkach: The minister is at the edge of babbling here because I am not talking about 72 percent. I understand the issues the minister talks about when he talks about capital support, when he talks about teacher retirement. Let us not hide behind fictitious numbers. We are talking about direct support to those elements of education that have been measured, not just in this last four years, but have made up the basket, if you like, of measurement for the percentage of funding of those educational programs that has been constant over time. We have always excluded that portion that makes up the 72 percent, the capital, the teachers' allowance fund, and so forth. We are talking here about that 57 percent that is common to the measurement of how much funding the Province gives vis-à-vis school divisions. That is the portion I am talking about.
All I was doing was trying to clarify that this portion now is going to rise from 57 percent to 64 percent because the Province is now going to transfer the tax credit money directly to the school divisions. The minister said yes to that. That is a fair response; that is the accurate response. My only comment to that was that we have to make it clear to the public and to Manitobans that this 64 percent was achieved, not through additional funding for education, but, Mr. Chair, simply through an accounting transfer and a transfer of how money is transferred into the school division's pocket.
Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Chair, this is not new money. It is providing better disclosure and transparency, and I would take exception to the reference of fictitious numbers; $100 million is a real number and it is something that we are providing, better transparency to Manitobans as to how education is being funded in this province.
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, I thank the minister for finally coming around to acknowledging that. I was not trying to play games with the minister here. I know education funding is a complex issue. Certainly, over time, funding to education has been an issue that taxpayers, that educators, that school boards have found somewhat problematic, not only in the amount of money that goes into education and such items as textbooks, but also the place where the money is collected from. So I appreciate that the minister is forthright in those responses.
I have a question in a different area and it has to do with textbooks. It almost seems, in today's day and age, intolerable that we are allowing $10, I believe it is, per student, per textbook, per year. Can the minister tell me whether in fact my number is correct or whether that number of $10 per student per year has increased beyond that?
Mr. Bjornson: The textbook grant is $50 per pupil per year.
Mr. Derkach: As I understand it, the textbook grant is also including in it more than just the classroom textbook. It includes library and video materials as well, does it not?
Mr. Bjornson: The library grant is a separate grant. It had been $90 per student, per year for a number of years, and we raised it to $92 per student with our recent 2% funding announcement increase. So that was one of the priorities that we placed on resourcing our libraries, and it was increased from $90 to $92 per pupil per year.
Mr. Derkach: Can I ask the minister whether or not he is saying that the $50 is exclusively for student textbooks?
Mr. Bjornson: That is for all resource materials in the classroom.
Mr. Derkach: I did not understand the minister's response. Just repeat it, that is all.
Mr. Bjornson: The $50 per pupil is for all resource materials in the classroom.
Mr. Derkach: So I go back to my first question. Is it accurate to say that approximately $10 per student per year is for pure textbook materials for classroom purposes?
Mr. Bjornson: There is flexibility in that grant. The whole of the amount could be spent on textbooks, depending on the local priorities or the priorities of the schools, the principals, whatever the case might be. So the entire amount could be for textbooks, or it could be broken down for a variety of resources as identified as priorities by the school.
Mr. Derkach: As I understand it, a classroom teacher would have to decide whether or not this entire amount of money is going to be spent for new textbooks and/or for other resource materials that are required to teach a particular curriculum. Is that correct?
Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Chairperson, that would be part of a general discussion with staff and principals to decide what their priorities would be and what the most appropriate method would be to resource the programs that they are offering.
Mr. Derkach: Can the minister tell me how long the $50-per-student amount has been in place and when it was last increased?
Mr. Bjornson: It has been in place since the new formula was introduced in '92-93 and it was last increased in '96-97.
Mr. Derkach: So there has not been an increase in this grant since this Government has been in office and I would acknowledge, first of all, that regardless of which government has been in office, this amount is absolutely so far out of date today, that it does not make sense. We have had significant numbers of new programs introduced into the classroom. Is there any recognition of classroom textbook costs when new curriculum is introduced into a classroom?
Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Chair, again, the $50-per-student grant is flexible and discretionary with respect to the priorities that are identified by the staff, by the principal, by the school division and how to resource their courses, whether those courses are new courses that are introduced or whether they are existing courses that they care to expand or deliver for the first time, whatever the case might be.
* (15:50)
But there are also other things that we have been doing with respect to computer technology and, as I mentioned at the very beginning of this afternoon's Estimates, the number of schools that are now accessing broadband and Internet, so there are a number of other media now that are available that students can use.
We are also providing a lot of professional development opportunities for teachers to look at alternative methods of course delivery as well. I mean, in my experience in the classroom and as a matter of personal history, I was using social studies textbooks that were quite dated during the 1990s, and, as such, just had to be more creative in how we chose to deliver the courses, and made very good use of the resources that were available to us.
Certainly, for the number of resources that are available, you cannot spend enough on these resources. Mr. Chair, there are so many things that are available to our students, but that is a matter of priorities being identified by the schools, by the principals, by the staff in terms of how they chose to resource those courses.
Mr. Derkach: Well, Mr. Chair, I understand that there are new technologies available to teachers, to students, to all of us, but I also understand that $50 does not buy today what it bought in 1996 or '97. I am quite concerned that as the minister responsible for the education of children, this grant for individual textbooks and resources has not increased at all since 1997.
Regardless of computers, regardless of Internet broadband, et cetera, I am talking about raw textbooks, and what we are finding today and what I am sensing from my constituents is that there is a growing concern from parents who are seeking a quality of education for their children about the fact that children are not able to have a textbook in the classroom.
As a matter of fact, some of them have to share, others have to copy, sometimes they Xerox, sometimes they are just told, "Sorry, we don't have the money to buy you textbooks, but this is the program we have to teach."
Mr. Bjornson: Just as it is the priority of the school or the teachers that is reflected in how they choose to use those resources, that $50-per-student grant, we also have our priorities as a government to look at how we expend our resources in other areas by increasing funding to special needs, to Aboriginal education, to English as a Second Language, early numeracy, early literacy.
So, just as we have priorities identified by schools and they make those choices around how to use those resources, we as a government have identified priorities where we are investing more of our funds to address the educational needs of our students.
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, I am going to paraphrase what the minister just said. He said, "School divisions have to have their priorities and we have our priorities." He talks about Aboriginal education, he talks about special needs, as though the rest does not matter. So we are going to bring everybody's level down in terms of the quality of education because our priorities are over here and not over here.
I find that appalling. Any Minister of Education would know that your priorities are to enhance the opportunities for education for all students, whether they are above average, average, below average, whether they are Aboriginal, Ukrainian, German, whether they are black, yellow, white would not matter.
We are not a country that practises apartheid, and for the minister to say that our priorities are over here and not over here is absolutely appalling. The minister said, "School divisions have to set their priorities. We as a government have set ours, and our priorities are special needs and our priorities are Aboriginal education."
That is a damnation. Mr. Chair, I cannot believe what I just heard from the minister. I mean, regardless of whether I have a child that is an exceptional student or not, that child has to have the best possible opportunities that we as a province and we as a society can afford, but to say that is not a priority is not a very wise statement from the minister in my view.
Mr. Bjornson: I do not believe that is what I said, and I think our Government's priorities in education are very clear. We have put $105 million into the base.
I lived through the nineties as a teacher where I saw minus 2%, minus 2.6%, 0%, minus 2%, 0% announcements on education as a priority. I saw during the 1990s over 800 teachers who retired or were let go and not replaced, thus impacting the ability to deliver quality education in our province. I saw a number of initiatives by members opposite that were a direct attack on the teaching profession.
This is a government that values education and that value is reflected in the actions of this Government. A $105-million investment–
An Honourable Member: But you segregate the races.
Mr. Bjornson: I cannot believe that I am hearing this from the Member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), comparison to apartheid. This is unbelievable. It is unbelievable.
Mr. Chair, we have identified our priorities. We are investing in our priorities. You started to talk about $50 textbook grants, it is the priorities of the school to decide which resources they use–
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. It is getting difficult to hear the person who has the floor. So, if you wish to speak, you can go back there or out in the hall. All right. I would like to hear the person who has the floor speak. Honourable Minister, you have the floor.
Mr. Bjornson: I was referring to the $50-per-student allotment as schools identified their needs and their priorities with how to resource programs. As a government, it is our purview to identify our priorities in education which, as I mentioned, include increased funding to special needs; increased support to special needs; increased funding for Aboriginal academic achievement and Aboriginal action plan, which was something that was sadly missing during the 1990s; English as a second language supports; early numeracy. Our list of priorities go on and on with respect to addressing the educational needs of our students.
In fact, we even go beyond the classroom and start early with our Healthy Child initiative, looking at the holistic approach to education, dealing with providing prenatal support for parents, giving the child the healthiest possible start; having early childhood learning indicators where approximately 70 percent of Manitoba students now are assessed in the readiness to learn program before they go to kindergarten.
We have our priorities very much focussed on education, and I am very proud to be a part of the Government that has made education such a priority after going through what I went through as a teacher, as a professional, in the nineties.
Mr. Derkach: I think it is a sad comment on the minister when he is questioned on his own approach and his own philosophies for him not to be able to defend it, but to be able to hearken back to the nineties. The reality of the nineties is there, and I am not going to debate the nineties. We are now in the new millennium and this is the reality before us today. It is the minister that has accountability for what happens today. That is what we are questioning here in Estimates.
It is too bad that the minister has such a low esteem of how he can defend his Estimates that he cannot defend his Estimates on their merit, but, indeed, harkens back to the eighties, the nineties. We have seen this in the House, Mr. Chair, and it is a sad comment on the minister. I think I will just leave it at that. If the minister wants to make a final comment, we can proceed from there.
* (16:00)
Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Chair, once again, I would like to put on the record how proud I am to be a part of a government that values education and values education starting with the holistic approach, the Healthy Child initiative, as I said. That value of education is reflected in a $700,000 commitment to the Early Childhood Development Initiative, 70 percent of our students being assessed before they go into the school system to see if they are ready to learn, looking at assessment models that provide meaningful feedback so we can have a meaningful look at our system and identify needs within our system, providing predictable, affordable, sustainable funding with $105 million over the course of five years, and our commitment to post-secondary education and reducing and freezing the tuition fees. I am very proud to be a part of this Government and the value that this Government puts on education. I appreciate that the Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach) has given me an opportunity to comment as such.
Mr. Chairperson: The floor is open for questions. I think we are ready for passing the resolutions. I will read Resolution 16.2.
Resolution 16.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $25,042,100 for Education, Citizenship, and Youth, School Programs, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005.
Resolution agreed to.
Resolution 16.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $8,387,800 for Education, Citizenship, and Youth, Bureau de l'éducation française, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March 2005.
Resolution agreed to.
Resolution 16.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $182,664,100 for Education, Citizenship and Youth, Education and School Tax Credits, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005.
Resolution agreed to.
Resolution 16.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $847,755,900 for Education, Citizenship and Youth, Support to Schools, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005.
Resolution agreed to.
Resolution 16.6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $5,004,700 for Education, Citizenship and Youth, MB4Youth, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005.
Resolution agreed to.
Resolution 16.7: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $31,459,800 for Education, Citizenship and Youth, Capital Grants for School Divisions, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005.
Resolution agreed to.
Resolution 16.8: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $503,800 for Education, Citizenship and Youth, Costs Related to Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005.
Resolution agreed to.
The last item to consider for the Estimates of this department is 16.1.(a) Minister's Salary, contained in Resolution 16.1. At this point, we request that the minister's staff leave the table for the consideration of this last item. The floor is open for questions.
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairperson, I think this minister has demonstrated, and although he is a new minister, he has demonstrated that he does not value the importance of resources to classrooms and, he has, unfortunately, left a very important part of education to the whims of the school divisions to try to wrestle with.
An Honourable Member: To the whims of teachers.
Mr. Derkach: Yes, and the whims of teachers. Mr. Chairperson, the teachers have a very difficult time in trying to prepare and present programs to students when they do not have the resources to buy the necessary classroom resources that are required to present those programs so the minister has a responsibility here.
Mr. Chairperson: There is too much talking and we cannot hear the speaker very well. I can still hear people talking and if I cannot hear the speaker, we do not know what is happening.
Member for Russell, you have the floor.
Mr. Derkach: As I was saying, Mr. Chairperson, the minister, a former educator who prides himself as an educator, and I am confident that he is a good educator. I am not going to reflect on his teaching ability whatsoever, and he has proven himself as a teacher, as well. That is not the issue. The issue here is an issue of management of a department which is responsible for the well-being of the educational qualities and opportunities of children throughout this province.
I know the minister has to balance that with his staff in terms of how the resources are shared, but there is one area that is fairly important to teachers and to classroom children and to parents. That is the whole area of direct reading textbook resources to those children. We can talk about implementing new technologies, we could talk about broadband, we could talk about Internet, we can talk about all of those things.
This Government, Mr. Chairperson, has made an about-face. When they came into government, they were very proud of the fact that they nixed the YNN program but this year they are now launching into partnerships with private industry and allowing for private industry to come into the classrooms with such things as computer software, et cetera. The deal with Microsoft is the one that I am referring to. Now, that is not a bad deal. We, on this side of the House, supported that. We were, when we were in government, constantly looking at opportunities that would allow for students to access those types of technologies, those types of resources, by partnering with the private sector.
Microsoft is not a public-sector, it is a private-sector company, and they are out there to make money. But they, as do other companies, feel an obligation because they know that investing in our children is an important part of growing our society and ensuring that we have a knowledgeable, well-informed workforce for the future of this country. That is certainly something that the Minister of Education (Mr. Bjornson), I know, as an individual, wants, but he is restricted in terms of the Budget. Also, I think the Government's philosophy comes into play here, and the minister has to abide by that as well.
I feel very strongly that the whole area of textbook and resources into the classroom is an area that is very severely underfunded. I felt that way when we were in government too, to be honest with you. That was an area that we somehow do not seem to have an ability to address and I wish we could.
* (16:10)
I want to make a statement about that for the record here in this Chamber. On reflecting on the minister's salary, I will not move a motion to reduce the minister's salary to the cost of a textbook or the cost of the grant that is afforded for each student. That would be probably a message that we would send to the minister so that he would be cognizant of that for the next year. I simply want to talk about that issue and simply put it on the record that, I think, as an educator, I want this minister to focus his attention to that area, because I think any resources that we can help to provide to the classroom teacher is only going to assist in the overall education. I do not care, as I said previously, whether it is to Aboriginal education, or whether it is to a particular cultural part of the educational experience in a school. I believe that those are important elements of education. I believe that we need to enhance things like cultural education. We need to enhance the arts part of education.
Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): You are the one that wanted to abolish all those things in the election campaign.
Mr. Derkach: Well, that is an important point that the Member for Burrows makes because during the election campaign, as a matter of fact, I was quoted as wanting to cut those things, and the reality was I was saying the exact opposite. I will explain.
An Honourable Member: You were misquoted.
Mr. Derkach: Yes, I was not quoted. As a matter of fact, there was no quote from me. It was just the–
An Honourable Member: Misparaphrase.
Mr. Derkach: That is right. It was the misconception of the Free Press and Mr. Nick Martin of the Free Press, but let me explain why I am strong on that part of it. I come from a family that is very strong in terms of the performing arts and in terms of artistic education. As a matter of fact, I have a son who is an artist and I, as well, was a performing artist at one time as well, so, Mr. Chair, in that regard, you cannot say–
An Honourable Member: Were you a dancer?
Mr. Derkach: No, I am not a dancer.
Mr. Chair, nobody can say that I do not value the importance of the performing and the cultural arts. To me those are very important, so that is the area that I see that we need to put some focus on in terms of enhancing education.
Secondly, I believe that we need to expand the whole area of music in the schools, and I do not know how we would do that. One way is to partner, perhaps, with–and I go back to the whole concept of partnering with communities, partnering with the private sector.
In my own situation, we
do not have a music program in our school. What we were blessed with in our
community was an individual who gave of herself 150 percent to make sure that
students would have the benefit of a music program. It is in that way that my
son became a musician and an artist. It was because he was able to take
advantage of that individual's skills and her commitment to education. For that
reason, I have always been very strong in terms of wanting those kinds of
programs as a part of the integral component of education. I would look at the
minister today and say that we should launch–and this is not a partisan thing.
I think it is time for us to launch an investigation into how we can expand in
the
An Honourable Member: We are already doing that.
Mr. Derkach: The minister says he is already doing that and, certainly, he will not ever see me condemn him for an action in that regard.
It was interesting during the election campaign as well. I might say, that a week after that story came out where the Free Press said they misunderstood the whole issue completely and thought that I was against all of these programs, the Premier (Mr. Doer) actually came out with a policy that was exactly what I was trying to promote in the province. That is okay, because I think all of that is for the benefit of children regardless of who wants to take credit for that. It is not important. The important part is that children receive the benefit of that program.
I come back to this whole issue of the $50 per student for resource materials. That, I find, is really inadequate and, as I said, if I were to move a motion here on the minister's salary, that is the area that I would focus on, because that is the area that I would say needs to be addressed by the minister, Mr. Chair, needs to be improved for the ability of teachers to be able to deliver an appropriate kind of curriculum and enhance the opportunities for our children. I leave it at that and I will not make the motion.
Mr. Chairperson: Any further questions from the floor? If not, I will read Resolution 16.1. into the record.
Resolution 16.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $5,331,400 for Education, Citizenship and Youth, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005.
Resolution agreed to.
This completes the Estimates of the Department of Education, Citizenship and Youth. The next set of Estimates to be considered by this section of the Committee of Supply is for the Department of Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade.
Shall we briefly recess to allow the minister and critics the opportunity to prepare for the commencement of the next set of Estimates? [Agreed]
We will have a short recess.
The committee recessed at
4:16 p.m.
________
The committee resumed at 4:23 p.m.
Mr. Cris Aglugub, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair
AFFAIRS AND TRADE
The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Cris Aglugub): Will the Committee of Supply come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply will now be considering the Estimates of the Department of Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement?
Hon. MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade): Yes, I do. It is my pleasure to present for the committee members' consideration Estimates for the Department of Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade for 2004 and 2005 fiscal year. I will try to keep my remarks brief.
The Department of Intergovernmental
Affairs and Trade formed in the recent government reorganization in November
2003. Trade and local government initiatives have been consolidated into a
single department recognizing that strong local governments are critical to
Mr. Acting Chair, also, as part of this reorganization, programs that were formally within the department have been transferred to other portfolios. The Manitoba Water Services Board and the Conservation Districts Program are now housed within the new Department of Water Stewardship. Rural economic development programs such as the REDI-funded programs and the co-operative development program are now in the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives.
Mr. Harry Schellenberg,
Chairperson, in the Chair
The new Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade is embarking on several priority initiatives this fiscal year. In the planning area, critical initiatives in the area of planning demonstrate our ongoing commitment to providing local governments an effective land use planning framework.
Our planning resources are focussed on the following priority areas. We have introduced Bill 40, The Planning Amendment Act, to encourage municipalities and planning districts to do better up-front land use planning, especially for agriculture and specifically, for livestock operations. We have worked very closely with the Association of Manitoba Municipalities and other stakeholders to develop a bill that fairly balances the interest of the province, municipalities, producers and the public.
We are taking action and
partnership with municipalities on the Capital Region. In support of the recent
historic signing of the memorandum of understanding by mayors and reeves of the
Capital Region, including the mayor of
Infrastructure: Mr.
Chairperson, in recognition of the infrastructure needs of our communities, the
department supports infrastructure renewal initiatives in local communities
across
The current
Canada-Manitoba Infrastructure Program along
with upcoming new initiatives provides for a sustained federal-provincial
commitment to renew infrastructure of all types, sizes and levels throughout
the entire province. We are actively negotiating two new agreements with
A new Canada-Manitoba
Infrastructure Program, under what
Economic development:
Building on the success of previous Manitoba-Canada Economic Development
Partnership Agreement, a new five-year $50-million Canada-Manitoba Economic Partnership
Agreement was announced in March. Mr. Chair, the new EPA provides matching
federal-provincial contributions in partnership with stakeholders to strengthen
To date, federal and provincial governments have announced support for one EPA project, some $1 million for Forintek's Value-Added and a wood technology program, Mr. Chair, with a major focus on enhancing opportunities for Aboriginal and northern communities in the wood products sector.
Support to Municipalities: Key to the long-term sustainability of our communities are strong, healthy municipalities that are equipped to address the emerging challenges of our rapidly changing society. Departmental initiatives in '04-05 will strengthen the local government framework. Examples include the Tools for Change program developed in partnership with the AMM and redeveloping our Web site and statistics publications to provide local governments with timely, relevant and helpful information and management reports.
* (16:30)
A review of The Local Authorities Election Act will be undertaken to modernize local election act laws that are severely out of date and no longer in sync with today's available technology. We plan to have new local election laws in place for the 2006 general election.
Mr. Chair, we are gearing
up for the province-wide 2006 general property assessment which ensures
municipalities have a stable and a predictable tax base. As municipalities
across
Our financial support to local governments gives municipalities more flexibility to provide the services its citizens want, while keeping property taxes reasonable.
Our unique, unconditional tax-sharing program, the Provincial-Municipal Tax-Sharing Program is the foundation to our joint financial relationship and the envy of municipalities in other provinces. We also continue to share on an unconditional basis video lottery terminal revenues with municipalities. These funds help meet locally determined priorities, supporting projects like recreational facilities, community organizations, community development services or economic development projects.
Funding under Neighbourhoods Alive! is making a contribution to community-driven revitalization in inner city neighbourhoods in decline. Mr. Chair, the same success is evident in Brandon and Thompson, where Neighbourhoods Alive! is also being delivered.
Building on other
success, tripartite agreements, the department is working with
Trade: On the Trade side
of the department, key programming areas are
Mr. Chair, Manitoba Trade
and International Business Development,
In 2003,
With the support of
Manitoba Trade,
On the advice of my trade advisory council, I convened a strategic planning session on December 22, 2003, to bring together major trade partners in the province to identify areas for action and improvement.
Recommendations included the need to profile the importance of exporting to Manitoba's business community, in particular, Mr. Chair, businesses in rural Manitoba, the need to encourage and develop more new exporters with the capability to successfully pursue international business opportunities and, thirdly, the need for the Province to initiate a broader consultation with the business community for their input into a made-in-Manitoba trade strategy.
I am pleased to report
that on May 25, 2004, the Province, in consultation with their other provincial
and federal trade partners, will be hosting a trade summit in
Canada-U.S. and
International Relations: The Department of Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade
will provide leadership in the implementation of the Province's international
agenda and ensure co-operation, communication and co-ordination between
departments,
Through the Department of Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade, the Government of Manitoba will develop criteria and processes for assessing proposals for international activities to ensure that they reflect the relative importance of the region in terms of current levels of export from Manitoba or, in essence, in Manitoba and the opportunity for growth or export and product diversification; reflect the relative importance of the sector involved in terms of existing levels of exports from Manitoba and the opportunity for growth; maximize the potential for attracting skilled workers, professionals, entrepreneurs, foreign students, researchers; and contributing to the growth of Manitoba's knowledge and innovative sectors.
Maximize return on
investment to
We will help our private sector get to the foot of the door by building upon the many government-to-government relationships that Manitoba has nurtured and will supplement our private sector capabilities with expertise that already exists within the Government of Manitoba.
International Education Branch: The estimates of the international student enrolments for 2003-04 show that there is an overall year-to-year increase of 25 percent across the educational sector. This is impressive growth that is strong across all sub sectors within education. The increase is expected to push the estimated economic impact from these students to above $50 million.
The two main targets for
market development for 2004 and 2005 are
We will continue working
on building provincial capacity to grow and develop the international education
sector. Several presentations at meetings have taken place with
Internal trade:
We continue to be at the
forefront in addressing barriers to internal trade. The Council of the
Federation identified internal trade
barriers as one of their first priorities, and Premier Doer, along with Premier
Lord of
* (16:40)
Mr. Chairperson: When we refer to members of the House, we refer to their constituency or to their portfolio. Thank you. You have the floor.
Ms. Mihychuk: I beg your pardon. The Council of the Federation identified internal trade barriers as one of their first priorities, and our Premier and the Premier of New Brunswick took the lead on this issue.
Premiers have developed a work plan that identifies the key issues, necessary actions and specific timelines for addressing them. The Council of the Federation approved and released the internal trade work plan at its meeting on February 24, 2004, and ministers met on April 28 to begin the process of addressing trade barriers.
Ministers at the April 28 meeting agreed to move forward on the issue of procurement by Crown corporations. This will add an estimated $20 billion in annual procurement to that covered by the agreement on internal trade. Until premiers launched this initiative, these negotiations had languished for over eight years.
The work plan tasks provincial and territorial ministers with a series of priority actions that include internal trade barriers in a wide range of areas, including agriculture, energy, business subsidies and the recognition of foreign credentials. Ministers will continue to provide regular reports to the Council of the Federation, which will remain closely involved to ensure continued momentum.
We have faced a number of
important challenges in ensuring open markets for Canadian exports
internationally. In particular we continue to face significant barriers in our
exports to the
In response to this we
have been actively engaged with the federal government and with other provinces
in pursuing all avenues to open the
We have participated in
trade dispute panels under the World Trade Organization and under the NAFTA to
reverse these protectionist
In the coming year, we
will work to continue to ensure
Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable Member for Arthur-Virden, have any opening comments?
Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Well, only brief comments, Mr. Chair, because I am sharing this responsibility with one of my colleagues, the Honourable Jack Reimer, the honourable Member for Southdale, pardon me for using the name of a member of the Legislature in Estimates, who will be dealing with a number of the issues around urban circumstances as his responsibility in our caucus is for Urban Affairs on the Intergovernmental side.
I will be dealing with
some of the rural ones as well, although when it comes to Trade we overlap in
those areas. I believe that Mr. Eichler, the Member for
Certainly, the
circumstances in
Mr. Chair, of course, dealing with the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Initiatives (Ms. Wowchuk) on that particular file, I think, has probably been perhaps more of a responsibility in that area than the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs has had in that regard.
I would just like to let
her know of the urgency of that in the area of rural
There were a number of
reasons. The politics of that one in my experience, for the minister's benefit,
have always been that when you are dealing with them as I was as a farm leader,
they were very, very entrenched in regard to anything to do with wheat and
hogs. It was not so much beef in those days, Mr. Chair, but R-CALF, the Ranchers-Cattlemen
Action Legal Foundation group out of
Of course, I am sure the
minister is very aware of the debate that Messrs. Dorgan, Conrad and Palmeroy in
Mr. Chairperson, we need
to continue with some of the agreements that we have in regard to the auto
industry, that other provinces, perhaps, are more impacted by than ourselves,
but there is a lot of farm equipment trading back and forth across the border
daily. We need to make sure that those kinds of areas are kept open for many of
the small companies that operate businesses in
Mr. Chairperson, I know the minister has an engineering background and so does my brother. So I appreciate the fact that there is a need in that particular area for all of the development that we have, but agriculture equipment has been developed by I think people like my forefathers, who were good with a welder and needed something done in those areas. Perhaps a good many of our small towns have a small business with two or three or five to ten people working in them that has been developed in that area.
It is very, very important to those particular locations to keep those communities open, or the borders open, in regard to those communities' needs. I would just reiterate and urge the minister to work with their Minister of Agriculture and Rural Initiatives (Ms. Wowchuk) to make sure that we continue to move forward on that.
I want to just say that I
will, I think, move into questioning. Mr. Chair, I believe that the minister
has outlined–I appreciate her opening remarks and comments–I know there are
priorities, that she does not have some of the ones I was listening to when I
followed the Association of Manitoba Municipalities around the province. I look forward to coming up with some of
their district meetings or AMM's meetings
and some of the other association meetings that the minister will be in charge
of coming up throughout
I know as well that the
area of conservation districts, while very important to rural
Of course, we know that water is with the new Water Stewardship initiative of this Government. The new minister in charge has a great deal of concern around the whole issue of the floodway and a number of other areas. Whether we have a minister in charge of water or not, I think the minister will find as she moves into a lot of rural areas in the province, if she has not already found that in the city of Winnipeg and other urban areas; those people will be asking her questions on water in relation to the kinds of importance that it has because of its interconnection with municipal affairs and the politics of rural Manitoba and, in fact, the makeup of those communities and the importance of it.
I will end my remarks
there. I may save an opportunity if I could, Mr. Chairman, that, when the Member
for Southdale (Mr. Reimer) and the Member for
* (16:50)
Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. I just want to inform the Member for Arthur-Virden that they can do that by leave. So we thank the critic from the Official Opposition for those remarks.
Under
At this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table and we ask that the minister introduce the staff in attendance. Would the staff please come forward. Would the minister please introduce the staff.
Ms. Mihychuk: Mr. Chair, with me today is Denise Carlyle, director of Finance and Administration; Linda McFadyen, ADM Community and Land Use Planning; and Diane Gray, Associate Deputy Minister.
Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. Does the committee wish to proceed with the Estimates of this department in a chronological manner or have a global discussion?
Mr. Maguire: I would like to proceed on a global discussion if we could, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Mihychuk: I normally like to be as flexible as possible and maybe what I would ask is if there could be a heads-up as the department really has two different sections, the Trade section and the IGA. Then we would not need to call perhaps those folks, depending on where you want to lead your questions, and then they could be off doing very important business.
Mr. Maguire: Yes, let me clarify that, Mr. Chair. I agree with the minister in regard to that. We will not be doing areas of Trade today. From that circumstance, at least, and my relation, I am looking at doing a number of some of the rural issues on policy and broad questions there. We will leave it up to the minister as to when she can come back to Estimates after today.
Mr. Chairperson: All right. I understand it that we have agreed that questions for this department to follow in a global manner with all line items to be passed once the questioning has been completed. Is that agreed upon? [Agreed]
The floor is now open for questions.
Mr. Maguire: I only have a few questions to begin today. I would like to, if I could, just briefly ask the minister in regards to some of the political staff that she still has working with her, just names and numbers of political staff that she has and the names of those persons if I could.
Ms. Mihychuk: In my office, my special assistant is Joseph Warbanski; my executive assistant is Audrey Paynter; and then two secretaries who are staff more than I would consider political. So I have two political staff.
Mr. Maguire: Can the minister indicate whether there has been change in that or if those people worked with her in previous departments?
Ms. Mihychuk: Audrey Paynter has been with me for about five years, and Joseph Warbanski has joined us with the change in departments. On November 19, 2003, he came on with IGAT.
Mr. Maguire: Mr. Chair, I notice we have moved through some of the locations of the other staff changes, but I wonder if she could just indicate to me the office staff that she has in her office as well.
Ms. Mihychuk: In my office are two secretarial or admin positions, Margaret Ali and Linda Freed. We have reduced the number of support staff in the senior executive sort of office suite and are trying to put resources where they are really needed and that is at the front lines.
Mr. Maguire: Yes, I know we are looking at these. Just one moment. I wonder if
the minister could indicate, while I am looking this other up, just the staff
that they have in the
Ms. Mihychuk: There are three positions in the
Mr. Maguire: In Human Resource Management in the Supplementary Estimates book, it indicates a small change in Salaries, but no change in Managerial. Can she indicate to me why there is only one managerial position there and whether or not there has been a change in that person, or did they just take a cut in salary?
Ms. Mihychuk: The budget allocation was for a certain step. The position became vacant and the individual that was hired was started at a lower level so that netted a saving.
Mr. Maguire: I am going to take the liberty of turning the Estimates over to my colleague from Emerson to provide him some time to ask some questions in regard to concerns that we have in that area.
An Honourable Member: Concerns in Emerson.
Mr. Maguire: Well, he is the Member for Emerson, but I am sure his concerns are much more broad than just those of the area of Emerson so I would turn it over to him.
I may try to get back to the minister today; otherwise, we will continue with our Estimates at her convenience or whenever our House leaders get together on that issue.
Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr. Chair, I thank the honourable Member for Virden for giving me the opportunity to ask a few questions in this department.
I want to first of all congratulate the minister for having done, I think, an exemplary job as the minister in the department that she is serving in the Government. I really am serious about that. From what I hear from my councils and members of councils, they have a high regard for you, Madam Minister, and I just want to pass that on. I say that with all sincerity.
I want to start on page 5, if you do not mind. The first question I would like to ask is I would like for you to give me a bit of an indication as to what parts of the department have been transferred to Agriculture and what amounts of money have been allocated to Agriculture. I know what the Agriculture budget said, but I have not been able to fully appreciate where the money came from in here and how it was accounted for and what staffing moved with it and that sort of stuff. My question is can the minister identify for me what part of the department was moved to the Department of Agriculture
Ms. Mihychuk: Mr. Chairperson, Community and Regional Development Initiatives, Economic Development Initiatives, Co-operative Development Services and Rural Economic Development Initiatives, the total amount transferred is $18.523 million.
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Ms. Kerri Irvin-Ross, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair
Mr. Penner: Thank you very much for that. There was another item just under that, Water Stewardship, so there is another $14.565 million transferred to Water Stewardship. What is that comprised of?
Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Chair, the Water Services Board, the conservation districts, sewer and water capital, conservation districts capital grants, make up the $14,565,000.
Mr. Penner: When I look at the total appropriations for Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade, I see that the appropriations last year, and I stand to be corrected, but last year the way I see it was $116,920 and this year is $110,627 and yet you have moved out of the appropriations a total amount of $33 million out of the printed Estimates of $145,768.
Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Chairperson, the member needs to look at the Summary Table at the bottom. Printed Estimates for 2003-2004 showed the budget for IGA at $145,768,000. So the 116.9 printed in this year's Estimates are the adjusted number with the transfers removed from that total. So last year was $145 million.
Mr. Penner: Thank you very much. So, when I look at these numbers, I wonder then what has stayed with the Department of Intergovernmental Affairs. What is the minister responsible for now?
Ms. Mihychuk: The department is made up of a number of different opportunities and programs. There are services and grants to municipalities. There is community and land-use planning.
Of course, we will probably be talking about the new planning schemes, the planning document that we have brought forward in Bill 40, the provincial-municipal support services, assessments are in the department, the grant agreements, the tripartite financial agreements are in the department. Then there is the whole avenue of government relations, so the negotiation with other municipalities, interprovincial and then international agreements and relationships and trade activities as well.
Mr. Penner: The minister has kept the responsibility for provincial trade.
Ms. Mihychuk: Yes.
Mr. Penner: Can the minister give me a bit of an overview as to what progress
has been made in
Ms. Mihychuk: I wish I could answer the member. Our staff from Trade, under agreement, have just left given the understanding that we would talk about the IGA component of the department, just to sort of facilitate more effective use of our staff time. I do not have an update, unfortunately, for the member on that specific agreement.
I understand that the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) has been working on that actively, but I do not have the definitive answer. We would be glad to get back to you with that.
Mr. Penner: And here I thought I was going to be dealing not only with the minister of pork, but the minister of pork and beans.
The reason I refer to this, I am quite serious, the pork industry is a major industry in this province, as we all know. I know that the minister has been very involved in the past in dealing with matters such as planning and other matters in the municipality.
When I talk about pork
and beans, what a perfect fit. We are now the biggest bean producer in
I think we have
demonstrated that we can produce both pork and beans very economically,
probably more economically than companies such as
I guess I am asking the
minister whether she has had any discussions with that industry, with the food
processing industry, and whether she might have received some receptiveness in
encouraging them to come to
Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Chair, on the Trade side, I think it is absolutely logical to
look at our strengths. We can see the development of a number of sectors,
including potatoes. We are now, I understand, the largest potato producer in
The bean industry has been growing rapidly because some of our traditional crops have not been as lucrative for farmers as in the past. I have to say that producers have been very innovative looking at new options. On my quarter that I lease out, we had organic soybeans last year. The production of beans has become a mainstay. This is a valuable option.
As the member may know,
the Government is promoting an opportunity for manufacturing here in
A number of initiatives
are out there. We do recruit on food processing. It is clearly a strength area
for
Madam Chairperson, there
have been other examples of jurisdictions that have been proactive and gone
after markets. They have been successful. I give it serious consideration. That
type of strategy is being discussed by the trade council and how we go about
landing new opportunities in
* (17:10)
Mr. Penner: I appreciate what the minister said.
Madam Chair, on trade-related matters, we all know that the pork industry is under attack again from our American friends charging that Canada is subsidizing its pork industry and has put a challenge on countervail as well as trade distortions via subsidies before. I am not even sure what they have done, if it has gone to court or is before the trade panel. However, the challenges are there.
Can the minister give us an indication as to whether she is involved in that discussion at all or whether she has had any discussions with the American trade department or the trade panel that has been established? Have we any discussions to give us some indication as to where we might end up in this whole discussion, this whole matter of clarification and trade restrictions?
Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Chair, the situation on hogs seems remarkably similar to some
of the other challenges that our neighbours to the south have taken on. In
terms of an update on the hog situation, it is my understanding that it would
be the American industry that has launched an investigation and a
The U.S. Department of Commerce is charged with determining if the petition has sufficient evidence. This is the beginning of a process. March 25, the deadline for initiation was extended by 20 days to April 14, as the level of support of the petitioners to date has been determined as 34 percent of the like-product industry, less than the required 50 percent.
The Government of Canada
will defend federal and federal-provincial programming.
So we are, again, into another file where it seems like domestic actions with our neighbours tend to be focussed, I think, on an election cycle rather than their larger positions. If you go to international trade conventions like the WTO, the Americans talk about open borders and free trading.
We have had a number of
aggravated cases. They tend to be primarily agriculture, but I am hopeful. We
had the
But, on hogs, it looks
like they are moving forward. Industry, at least, will have a number of
different steps to react to and we will fight these charges and continue to
defend
Mr. Penner: Madam Acting Chair, I thank the minister for that response. The
reason I raise this I found it very interesting that
Does the minister think that we have a better chance now to demonstrate our competitiveness without subsidies?
Everybody knows, including the Americans, that we are down to roughly about $1.1 billion of farm support annually over the next five years. That is the new APF agreement, and there was no other money identified in farm support federally.
That is both federal and provincial contributions, that $1.1 billion a year, while the Americans, I believe, are somewhere in the neighbourhood of $90 billion a year that they support their ag industry through numerous programs such as the disaster programs and various other programs, including direct subsidies on grains, cotton, beans, sugar and you name it.
Tariffication has been a
major part of that, and I relate to sugar alone. I believe that the
17-cent-a-pound tariff is still in place on sugar products coming into the
* (17:20)
I found it rather
interesting that our former Prime Minister, under his tenure, almost took
pleasure in poking his finger in the Americans' eyes every opportunity he got.
The question I have, I wonder whether the minister is aware of the difficulty
that has been created with our closest neighbours to the south of here by the
court action that the Province of Manitoba has initiated at the federal level
in Washington on the NAWS project and
the state court action that has been initiated by our Minister of Water, and
now challenging that he might, in fact, also initiate federal action on the
Devils Lake issue. We have seen since a retaliatory action taken by the State
of North Dakota on a road that exists between
I am going to ask the minister whether she believes that her Government should be a bit careful in how we deal with our neighbours and maybe start to initiative a more diplomatic approach to our relations with our neighbours, instead of the kind of approach we have taken now.
Ms. Mihychuk: It is, I think, very true that the Americans are a very large
market. They are our neighbours. Sometimes we do have rifts with them. It seems
that our closest neighbours are the ones where we have the most spats. But, as
the member knows,
We are active with the Government of Canada in encouraging them to support better relations. This was discussed between first ministers at the meeting on January 30, 2004. As a result of this meeting, provincial ministers met with federal Minister Pierre Pettigrew on March 19, and officials are now preparing options for strengthening Canada-U.S. relations and for meaningful provincial participation in international forums that will be presented to first ministers later this summer.
We are also working with
other provinces to promote stronger relations with the
Mr. Chairperson in the Chair
Mr. Chairperson, developing
bilateral relations has significant strategic importance. We are building
partners with
Fortunately, we have seen
some very promising news yesterday and today that
We are spending quite a
bit of time in the
Further targeted and strategic missions of this nature are being planned for the Premier, myself and other key ministers. So I think that there have been some initiatives by the federal government. They are looking at opening new offices.
Provinces have been
taking new steps to reach out to our American neighbours, and our Premier has
taken a very active role and believes strongly in building bridges. Now there
are some aggravated cases that are causing us difficulties, and I am sure that
we recognize how important the
Mr. Penner: I thank the minister for that response. I would strongly encourage the minister to keep working at those kinds of relationships and relationship building with our friends to the south because I believe it is important that we, instead of court challenges or court actions, you know, trying to outdo each other in the courts, should spend that money more wisely and sit down across the table with the Premier and the governor and try and work those matters out.
Mr. Chair, I think the
Americans will do what the Americans will do and we as Canadians in
I certainly hope that the minister did not call another staff person in for the discussion that we are having because it is certainly, if she would have asked me I would have said, no please do not because it is not–that is unfortunate if that happened. But, regardless, I want to strongly encourage the minister to have that discussion with her Premier and specifically our Minister of Water.
I realize that the Minister of Water is charged with the responsibility of seeing to it that we have clean water in our lakes and our rivers and our streams. We all agree with that, but I think there are better ways to achieve that than through the courts.
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please.
The time being 5:30, I am interrupting the proceedings. The Committee of Supply will resume sitting tomorrow at 10 a.m. (Friday). Thank you.
GOVERNMENT SERVICES
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Madam Chairperson (Bonnie Korzeniowski): Good afternoon. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will be continuing with consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Transportation and Government Services.
It was previously agreed to by this Committee to consider this department globally.
The floor is now open for questions.
Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Madam Chair, I guess I would just like to start off, thank the minister for answering some of the questions that my colleagues had yesterday in different areas and I would like to probably begin where I left off yesterday afternoon.
There are a number of issues, of course, around this extreme snow that we have just had. I know it has been a dilemma for the department to handle, but I need to ask just to finish off some capital questions in regard to the Budget that we talked about yesterday on the northern side as well, from the press release that the minister put out on April 27.
Madam Chair, first of all, I would like to ask just for the minister to confirm again that the numbers that we were looking at in regard to the capital budget that will be up for this year would be that $87.167 million that he was looking at on page 126 of the Supplementary.
Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Transportation and Government Services): Just wanting to touch on that, I believe the member is referring to page 126, I believe it is, where it makes reference to Capital Investment, looking at the investment the Province is putting forward.
If you take a look at net, it shows that it is under Highways Infrastructure Capital showing it at $87.1 million-plus. After looking at third party recoveries and taking a look at the net and taking a look at also the net under Estimates of Capital Investment '03-04, it shows it being $10 million more for this particular year.
I just want to state that partially, with regard to yesterday, I would just like to complete my response with regard to the honourable member's question about meeting the RoadWorks $600-million budget question that he had asked, as well.
The answer I stated was, yes, we would be meeting that and the RoadWorks commitment was to provide $120-million budget over the five years at $600 million over that particular period of time. Madam Chairperson, when you take a look at the preservation and the enhancement budgets were formerly shown together as a $120-million budget construction program in the Part A operating expenses as we explained yesterday.
So there was a decision made. I know the Auditor General has stated that the department has implemented a budgeting and reporting for highways infrastructure as tangible capital assets. As a result of that decision, the department's funding is separated into two votes and that is why we are looking at that number now of $87 million.
I just would like to say that not only taking a look at what the Part A expenditure is, but the honourable member would note that the combined Maintenance and Preservation budget has grown by 2 million this year as well from a budget of 109 to 111 and a half.
So the enhancement budget as well shown on Part B capital expenses in the vote B.14, it shows projects including a reconstruction of roads, twinning, intersection improvements and so on being Part B Capital. So the Capital Investment budget has grown by 10 million this fiscal year and is expected to grow by another 10 million next year.
Growth in both Preservation and Maintenance budget and the Capital Investment budget for enhancements will ensure that the RoadWorks commitment will be met and, possibly, exceeded over the five-year commitment period.
So, with regard to the investment as a Province, I just have to say that we are very pleased that the program is getting more money. We want to ensure that more money goes into Highways Capital or the highway infrastructure program because there is a need for it. Yet, as we would probably all agree, yes, in a perfect world you could use more money.
I made the case with regard to the federal government and it is not pointing a finger at the feds, it is just saying that, "Come to the table, we can do a lot more."
Hopefully, within the next week or so or whenever the Prime Minister decides to call an election, all parties, the New Democratic Party, the new Conservative Party and the Liberal Party will all have their feet held to the fire and will be pressed as to how much fuel tax and how much dollars are going to be putting back with regard to a highway infrastructure program.
I know the member touched on, briefly, about the weather, and I hope the member will just bear with me just for a couple of more seconds. I just want to thank the crews and the people who went out there to clean these roads and to work on the highway and to make sure that the trucks and regular traffic could get on the highway and get moving, because here it was for over 48 hours that the road was closed between Headingley and essentially the Saskatchewan border.
It is regrettable, but you know Mother Nature, no one expects to have a full-blown snowstorm, actually, two came through, in the middle of May. The system worked very well. It is regrettable. I know the trucking industry, I am sure they are going to have a loss with regard to some monies because of that, having trucks sitting still. But certainly, no one planned this and the crews got out there as quickly as they could.
After the police closed the roads down and the roads were cleaned, regrettably, there were trucks and cars that went around the barricades. Why? I have no idea why they were trying to make it through five-foot snowdrifts and trying to barrel ahead and make it through. The plows had to try and weave their way in and out of all these vehicles that were stuck. It took more time to clean. In fact, they had to do two cleans of that particular highway to get people through. Having said that, no one was killed. You did not have huge pileups as a result of drifting snow and people not being able to see the ploughs and so on.
I just want to thank those crews for all the hard work that they did and people should be commended for all the extra time they put in, not only the department of highways' crew, but also the private contractors that were called out to ensure that the traffic got moving.
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Mr. Maguire: I know that there is a great deal of commendation to be made to a lot of the workers in the province of Manitoba, but I think it comes downs to we have a circumstance now where there are a lot of priorities that need to be developed in the province of Manitoba and I think this kind of a circumstance, and a severe circumstance like this, shows why we have to be somewhat ready for these kinds of circumstances. I know these people have done their very best out there with the limited equipment and that sort of thing that they have.
I know that, as we move through the next short while in Estimates here, I think the minister needs to at least focus in the areas of his budgets with the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) in regard to maybe fighting a little harder for a portion of the Manitoba Budget to come into the Transportation, and particularly that side, I know Government Services as well.
I am really concerned and I know he has indicated that there is $10 million more, but I have a concern that all of last year's Budget was spent and I will show him why in a while. I wonder in relation to the Capital Investment that I did point out to him on page 126, that he has indicated to me under Capital Investment, B.14, 14.(a) Highways Infrastructure Capital at $87 million. Can he just give me a quick indication of where the $8,250,000 in Third Party Recoveries has come from? I noticed that it is about a $3.5-million increase, I guess, if you will, from last year because it is a smaller Third Party Recovery.
Mr. Lemieux: I thank the member for the question. The member is correct, it is down slightly. It is mainly the SHIP program and the Prairie Grain Roads; that is where that Third Party Recovery essentially comes from. To that extent the member is correct.
But just also to comment with regard to the Minister of Finance, as a government, and I do not want to politicize these numbers too much, but after all, we are in politics. If you take a look at numbers going back to the 1990s, the increase and the amount of monies that we have put into the transportation system has been substantial. Agreed, in a perfect world it should be more, but you know, there are health care challenges and there are education challenges, which we have made a priority of education, and you have to address that.
I believe that transportation is now becoming an area where it is starting to get on the radar screen with our federal government and many other areas of government. I think there are a lot of needs no matter what the area is, whether it is dealing in recreation or sport or transportation, and other areas have needs as well. Having said that, as a government we have been able to address many, many concerns in health care and education, but also we have been able to put some substantial dollars towards transportation and transportation infrastructure. In a perfect world it would be more. We do not live in a perfect world, so I believe that we are doing a fairly good job. We are not perfect, but I believe that with the additional $10 million as well as another 10 additional next year it will be able to help out in a number of different areas.
Mr. Maguire: Well, Madam Chair, I guess the question that I have for the minister is that, in a budget that has one and a half billion dollars more budgeted than it ever had in 1999 or previously, all I am saying to this minister is to fight a little harder for his chunk of it in highways so that the people out there can do their jobs, have some improvements in equipment and be able to move forward a little quicker than what they have. I know I would commend anybody that would put $10 million more into their capital budget for some of these areas, but when I look at the year-end statements from up to the 2003 level, at least, anyway, the increases in lapsed amounts to amounts that have not been used has some tripled or quadrupled in relationship to anything previous to 1997, 1998, 1999, in that area. That is a big concern to me. I think in 2003, it was just under $14 million that was lapsed, that we can see from the minister's own books. The other that comes to mind, I know it was just over $6 million even this year up to the end of that period.
If the minister can feel
strongly that he is fighting to get more money into those areas, all I am
saying is, maybe this $10 million is something that they have just pulled
forward from the previous year and said, "Well, we did not spend it last
year. The commitment that I will make to you is if we can get it back into
general revenue for the last year so that we would balance our books, we will
bring it forward and let you put it into an increased statement." I know
the minister said yesterday that there was no magic in making sure that the
$120 million was spent evenly over the five years. It is sort of the way
Can the minister provide me with some kind of assurance that that is going to happen in the future?
Mr. Lemieux: I can guarantee you absolutely that the twinning of Highway 59 south
is going to take place and will be done. I can absolutely guarantee you that
the northeast bypass will take place and there are many other projects that
this Government has committed to doing, in fact, even the one that runs past my
honourable critic's front doorstep, the twinning of Highway No. 1 to the
As far as the commitment
goes, we have committed to projects where the previous government had not
tackled those particular projects, whether it is the twinning of 59 south,
which needs to be done, or the northeast Perimeter. I guess all I am saying is
that the previous government had their priorities in wanting to do certain
projects and did them and had to make some difficult choices. The northeast
Perimeter is a huge project in
All I am saying is that there is a real need out there for a number of different projects to be addressed. I know the Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings) yesterday raised a number of questions with regard to a particular highway, Highway No. 5, and the issues related to Highway 68, and how that needs to be done. There are a lot of needs around the province; there is over a billion dollars of requests every year that come in. Again, in a perfect world, you might be able to address them all, but it is not a perfect world, so we are trying to address some of them.
And so, there are many projects that I can point to that have been done over the last four and a half years and many more that we are planning on doing in years to come. You cannot forget about the maintenance of the road and the preservation of these roads. A lot of the roads have taken a beating over a number of years, and they also need to be taken care of as well. So it is not just the new projects but the preservation as well.
Mr. Maguire: Well, Madam Chair, I appreciate the minister has many things to put on the record in regard to making sure we get more gas tax from the federal government, and I agree with him on that. I appreciate the fact that he has indicated that some of the areas are priorities, that the roads to be built, certainly in the north Perimeter, the northeast bypass there on Highway No. 1, I appreciate the work that is being done on No. 1 highway and the twinning of 59 highway south.
I appreciate that. Manitobans appreciate that. Manitobans expect that, though, from the government of the day, in regard to a statement that the minister himself made yesterday, that our roads are economic enablers in this province.
I think that is very important to remember, Madam Chair, as we move forward, and I would urge the minister to make sure that those budgetary items that have been put forth are, in fact, put forth in those areas as total budget commitments that are spent within the year that they are allocated. That has not been the case in the last few years in relation to the statements that we have got before us, and I just wanted to reiterate, then, that in this capital investment area, the $87 million that I talked about, less the Third Party Recoveries, smaller amounts from the SHIP program and the Prairie Grain Roads Program, I assume, are what the minister has meant there, that leaves just under the $79 million, $78,917,000, to be used in that capital investment area.
Mr. Lemieux: I thank the members for the comments. The SHIP program, as the member knows, he has been involved in the
agricultural community, and the Prairie Grain Roads Program are very, very
important to rural
What I will comment, though, is that from 1999-2000, highway infrastructure related expenditures, since that particular time, are around roughly $841 million, approximately. This represents an increase of about $59 million, almost $60 million, over the period of 1994-1995 to 1998-1999, the last five years that the previous government was in power. That is where expenditures total $781 million.
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Taking a look at this particular funding, you have an increase of almost $60 million in our short period as a government over the last five years or so or four years of the previous government. It is substantial, I mean, it is a lot of money. We have made a commitment to try to put more money into transportation and transportation infrastructure because we do believe it is an economic enabler and it is very, very important for tourism and for the trucking industry and for businesses and for agribusiness in Manitoba, and I think we would all agree to that.
To have that kind of money put in, I think, shows a real commitment on the previous ministers who were there, the minister now responsible for water stewardship, and now the Member for Brandon West, the Minister of Industry, Economic Development and Mines (Mr. Smith), they were previous ministers, and these ministers were committed and they also worked very, very hard, as I am working very, very hard with our Government.
The member said the Cabinet minister should work harder as a Minister of Transportation, to work harder with his Government to get more money. Well, in our government we are looking at this as a team effort and taking a look at the big picture of government. Health care will always probably be a major, major priority for Manitobans. It always has been. Education is extremely important. So when you take a look at what we have been able to receive, over and above what the previous government received in the last five years, almost $60 million is substantial. It is nothing to sneeze at. In a perfect world they would get more because this is an area that has a lot of needs is what I am trying to say, and we are trying to provide for that.
Without the help of the federal government we may not be able to totally address that. We are hoping that they will be able to come forward with more gas tax money, and so on, to the Province. Having said that, again I just want to reiterate, almost $60 million more since 1999-2000 since we became government compared to the previous government's five years.
So it is not meant to play politics with the numbers. What I am trying to do is make a point here that we have fought. You have had three ministers who have been fighting for more dollars to go into the transportation infrastructure program.
Mr. Maguire: Madam Chair, I am assuming, then, that the minister will agree that
the 36.7 million that he announced for northern
Mr. Lemieux: Yes, and I had mentioned yesterday to the member, and I thank the critic for the question, that a number of these projects that we work on are over and often spread and phased in over a number of years. So you cannot take a look at a particular amount and say that this lump sum comes out of–if the member is looking for a percentage, we are still looking as a percent to look into putting approximately 25 percent into the North as a commitment the First Minister made, the minister now responsible for Water Stewardship. This is something that, as a department, we have tried to incorporate in our planning, to put approximately 25 percent.
There are a number of projects there that are phased in over a number of years so that sum is not just coming out of that particular budget area. The member made reference to some years where we have lapsed money, or money has been lapsed out of it. Well, there are many years that we have spent more money in maintenance than was scheduled for it and so on. So it is a real balancing act but I hope I have clarified that with the member, that projects are often phased or spread over a number of years.
Mr. Maguire: Madam Chair, the $16.4 million in ongoing upgrades and improvements along PTH No. 6, though, that the minister announced, can he confirm that those $16.4 million will be spent this year?
Just a moment, I know we had some discussion on this yesterday and I know that the minister did indicate that most of those projects, I assumed, would be going forward. I just wondered if there was any change to that.
Mr. Lemieux: Well, I thank the member for the question. He is correct, we did talk about this yesterday. There is going to be the best attempt to address that money on PTH 6. I think I said that yesterday and that attempt is going to be there by the department to try to address that. There are a number of different projects, weather permitting, unless there are other surprises, other things that are unforeseen that is the intent
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Mr. Maguire: I thank the minister for that answer. The other projects, the rest
of the ones that are not for No. 6, the rest of the projects that are listed
there, I assume the same thing with them, that they will be projects that will
take focus for this year. We talked about the one from Flin Flon at the
Mr. Lemieux: I thank the member for the question, and I appreciate his questions
with regard to the projects and with regard to the announcement in northern
As I mentioned before, there is a situation where, if the engineering has started or has not started and people are going to begin to start to do the engineering or the tendering service, the commitment is there to do those projects. So what we are attempting to do is to be able to do those projects, as I mentioned, weather permitting, engineering and so on. If that is not there, some of the projects that we announced, the intent is to go ahead with them, the commitment is to go ahead.
Can I absolutely guarantee 110 percent that they are going to happen and take place and be done? No, I cannot, this summer, because I do not know if they will take place but the commitment on behalf of the Government to do something about transportation in northern Manitoba, as well as the other projects in the province, is to go ahead.
We do have a lot of other projects besides that, besides doing our regular maintenance, and trying to keep the system together is very, very important. So the point I am trying to make here with the member is that there is the best intention to go ahead. I mean, there is a commitment to go ahead and move on projects because we feel that it is important to go ahead on these projects, whether they be the northeast Perimeter, which we are going to start on with $5 million, at least to begin with, and to do the engineering and so on there with regard to doing some earth work over top of the rail tracks and so on.
The commitment is there to do the work, and we are going to attempt to meet that commitment.
Mr. Maguire: Madam Chair, I know, that in relation to one of the projects here is
I note that the Province is indicating that they will put $10 million over the next two years as part of the funding of that. Can the minister indicate to me if the rest of the commitment to that, of course it says it is under the Northern Flood Agreement–can he give me details of how that bridge will be funded?
Mr. Lemieux: I thank the member for the question. With regard to the
This is something the federal government really is–it is quite obvious and blatant, in a sense, that they are not involved in this project whatsoever. You have a First Nations community there. I feel that they have, and I am not the only one that feels this way, an obligation to be a partner with regard to this particular project.
There are a lot of First
Nations communities in
Mr. Rob Altemeyer, Acting
Chairperson, in the Chair
We certainly have not
given up trying in our discussions with the federal government to have them
come forth. So we are expecting that the federal government would come forward.
There is no guarantee of this, but we are certainly hoping–"hoping"
is the wrong word–certainly pressing the federal government that they come
forward and assist with some financial contribution towards this bridge. This
bridge is very, very important for
Mr. Maguire: Mr. Acting Chair, the priority on this bridge, then, I assume that the minister has put the $25-million construction costs into his budget.
I see the minister has indicated to me this year, and so I will clarify that. Certainly, I would assume that the $5.5 million says that it is the first stage of construction of this bridge, My point is that, if it is a five-year project, then the $25 million would be in the $600-million RoadWorks Manitoba budget that the Government of Manitoba is going to expend over the next five years.
Mr. Lemieux: Mr. Acting Chairperson, the simple answer for this is yes, absolutely. That money that we have is within that $600 million, for example, that RoadWorks program. It is budgeted for and the money is there. As I mentioned before, it is approximately $11 million to $14 million. That bridge is underway now, and some monies have been put forward to that bridge. Within that $600-million package, those dollars are there, and they have been budgeted for.
Mr. Maguire: The news release says it is a $25-million bridge. The minister just referred to it as an $11-million to $14-million bridge. Can I get some clarification on that?
Mr. Lemieux: I mentioned to you that we are trying to get the federal government to be more of a partner with regard to this particular project, but Manitoba Hydro also is paying for a portion of this particular bridge as well. I am not privy to the details of that, but I just know what our share is, and I know that we budgeted for it.
Mr. Maguire: Well, I wonder if the minister could give me an indication of what his share is.
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Mr. Lemieux: Yes. Our share is, as I mentioned, approximately $11 million.
Mr. Maguire: I would thank the minister, then. So is he saying that, through the Northern Flood Agreement, which is the statement here, that it would be Manitoba Hydro paying the other $14 million? Or is he trying to get that money from the federal government?
Mr. Lemieux: I just wanted to make sure I was clear with regard to those dollars. The commitment from Manitoba Hydro, I understand, is part and parcel of the Northern Flood Agreement. It is part of the responsibility, I guess, of Hydro with regard to this project.
Now we have sent a number of different letters. My colleague the previous minister has sent a letter, I have been advised, to the federal government trying to get them to the table to take some responsibility for this particular project. Thus far they have not accepted that. So the point I am trying to make here is that we are trying to get the federal government to the table to accept part of the responsibility for this particular bridge.
Mr. Maguire: Certainly, I see in the Supplementary Estimates for this year on
page 126, at the bottom of that page on Capital Investment, the explanation
there is that 7.5 million is being incurred by Manitoba Hydro for construction
of the
Mr. Lemieux: Yes, I have been advised that is correct.
Mr. Maguire: I guess I wanted to just check on if that money, then, is the 5.5 million that the minister has announced here for this year; when he expects to see the money from Manitoba Hydro flow for their share of that.
Is that the 7.5 million included in the 78.9 million that he has in the Estimates this year under Capital Investment, or is it over and above that 78.9 million?
Mr. Lemieux: No, I was just going to say the Hydro money is Hydro money, and that is direct, I understand. That is not through us; that is directly from Hydro.
Mr. Maguire: So then, in essence, the capitalization of the provincial share of this bridge will be $11 million, placed over how ever many years of construction that it takes to complete the bridge.
Mr. Lemieux: Correct. Unless the federal government can come forward and then, of course, those percentages would change, possibly.
Mr. Maguire: The minister just indicated that the percentages could change. Can you just enlighten me again as to how, I did not hear his answer clearly?
Mr. Lemieux: Well, I guess the project itself is worth a certain amount or costs a certain amount. Now if the federal government comes to the table, my understanding is that the project is not going to increase.
Hopefully, somebody's costs would be reduced somewhat. I do not know if it would be done proportionally for the Province or proportionally for Hydro, but if you get another partner in it just would remove the burden of the costs off of the two parties if you have an additional party at the table.
Mr. Maguire: Can the minister indicate to me if this has been tendered yet, or what stage the tendering process is at?
Mr. Lemieux: Yes, this particular project was started last year. It was tendered, I understand, and it is underway.
Mr. Maguire: Well, I did note with interest that the $5.5 million, I guess that would be a two-year commitment on behalf of the Province then, $5.5 million each year, because last year's statement that the other minister, his predecessor, released on April 25, 2003, also indicated that $5.5 million was going to be put up for the first phase of the construction of the $25 million Netnak Bridge on PR 374 over the Pipestone Lake to replace the ferry crossing and provide an all-weather road to the community of Cross Lake. Exactly the same statement that is in this year's announcement from the minister, and I just wondered if that is the total commitment of the $11 million?
Mr. Lemieux: Yes, that should have read "the second stage" where it says $5.5 million for the first stage, it should have read "for the second stage", because this is for the second stage of the project, 5.5 and 5.5 making up the $11 million.
Mr. Maguire: Can the minister just indicate to me then what was accomplished in the first stage and when the second stage will proceed?
Mr. Lemieux: Thank you for the question. Just to go through a couple of items that have been completed or are certainly well underway, the engineering obviously was done as part of that first portion of money. The approach roads were also cleared and, also, the construction of the approach roads was also completed. The piers and the abutments related to the construction were also done. Part of the second phase would be, of course, the deck of the bridge and completion of the bridge itself. But as far as the first phase of the project and the first, approximately, $5.5 million, being part of the first phase, I have mentioned some of the things that have taken place to be part of that.
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Mr. Maguire: Well, I appreciate that there has been that much work proceeded with then. I would just request, if the minister could give me an update as to where Manitoba Hydro was at, and how much they have been billed for, where they are at with their share of the process as well. I am assuming that they have put in 40 percent of it as well.
Mr. Lemieux: Well, yes, I would like to take that as notice, and then we can get back to the member and let you know. I do not have those details right at the table with me today as to Hydro's portion and so on.
Mr. Maguire: I appreciate the minister's concern there. I guess somebody must have an answer to that because we have got piles in the ground. The minister has just indicated the kind of work that has already been done on this bridge and the project is well on its way. At some point, from the little bit I know about engineering, billing takes place on a regular basis. So I wonder what the minister can tell us. He has indicated that Hydro is responsible for $14 million of this project. If the Province has put in all of their share, have they been the only ones funding this project to date? Is Hydro going to be billed, I guess, under the agreement that is already apparently there for the rest of the project?
Mr. Lemieux: Hydro is a well-respected corporation, and Hydro always pays their bills. Hydro is a partner in this, and they have funded their portion accordingly. I just do not have the numbers at my fingertips of exactly what portion out of that engineering and approach road works and the clearing and the construction, the abutments and the piers, I do not have that. I would be willing to provide the member with those figures once I obtain them from another source. My department does not have those numbers at their fingertips.
Mr. Maguire: I would appreciate the minister being able to provide me with those then at his earliest convenience, if he could provide me with an update of the project. I would assume, though, that he has indicated that their $11-million share has been budgeted. Has it gone towards the work that has been done to date including the end of the second stage? When does the minister predict that the second stage will be finished, and how long a project will this whole project be, that is, the building of the bridge?
Mr. Lemieux: I am sure Hydro, I cannot say for certain, but they have paid their portion up to date according to what work has been done. The project itself we are hoping to be able to complete by year-end and according to schedule. No one would have predicted that we would end up with a snowstorm in the middle of May. So, weather permitting, et cetera, we are hoping that everything will work out fine and things will be complete. But Hydro has paid their portion up to date, and the costs, I understand, at least I have been advised, are certainly more than the portion we paid. So Hydro has paid their portion, whatever that is, up to date. I do not have the answer for that. I will have to just get back to the member, but by year-end we are hoping to have completed the project, weather permitting.
Mr. Maguire: So there are just two stages to the project then? You are hoping that the bridge will be completed by fall?
Mr. Lemieux: Well, I would like to correct that, by year-end. I would think, hopefully, before January 1, '05, that the bridge will be used again, weather permitting. I hate to repeat myself with regard to that issue, but you cannot control what happens with regard to that. We are hoping to have it done by January 1, '05.
Mr. Maguire: I noted with interest that the minister in this press release has also gone on to say that he feels that he has tripled the budget for the annual winter road system since 1999. I guess I would like to just confirm for the minister what I see in those financial statements; that yes, in fact there is just close to $6 million being spent on winter roads in the province of Manitoba, somewhere in that area.
But I want to draw to the minister's attention that in '99-2000 that budget was $5.5 million, and if he wants to go back to the '98-99 budget there was a drop. Yes, it was $2.18 million, somewhere in that area, and so I am just wanting to know if that to get the tripling of the budget that the minister must have gone back to the '98-99 level.
Mr. Lemieux: I thank the Member for Arthur-Virden for the question. The winter road system really provides access to about 25 different communities in Manitoba, and the communities depend on the winter roads for the delivery of non-perishable food items and a lot of other services; whether it be fuel or building supplies, by truck at a reasonable cost, and they are very, very important. The reason I mention that is because starting with, I guess it was two previous ministers to myself, they both continued with the progress that we felt was necessary. We added on a whole huge number of kilometres, almost double for that matter, going from about 1600 kilometres to around 2300 kilometres of winter road system. Along with that came a lot of operating dollars and even some capital dollars which we put in because we were wanting to increase the roads.
The
I think he feels that
that is just as important as roads in southern
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Mr. Maguire: Well, I just wanted to urge the minister, I caution him on
exaggeration. That is all I am trying to do there. I certainly do not begrudge
him in regard to trying to get as much produce to these citizens of
The minister also just
indicated that in a statement, in his answer to his question to me that they
almost doubled the kilometres. To go from 1600 to 2300 as the minister
indicated is not quite 50 percent, not 200 percent. So, I just caution him that
maybe we could look at some of those areas. But, I certainly do not begrudge
the fact that we are trying to do a better job of providing more produce to the
citizens in those areas of
I want to just look for a
moment at the area of
Mr. Lemieux: I thank the member for the question. With regard to the length of
span of the
Mr. Maguire: Being a farmer, I appreciate the size of measurements that you have
just given me, Mr. Minister, in regard to the front steps of the Legislature to
Mr. Lemieux: In the year '03-04, the start-up was April 11 in '03, and shutdown was January 10. In the year '02-03, start-up was April 24 in '02, and January 18, '03 was the shutdown. In '01-02, the start up was April 12 in '01, and the shutdown was January 20 in '02. I believe that addresses the member's question.
Mr. Maguire: Could the minister give me an indication of what the cost would be of running that ferry for the year?
Mr. Lemieux: Yes, the investment in that community is approximately $117,000.
Mr. Maguire: I think they are just going to clarify the cost of running that ferry for me, Mr. Acting Chair, for the '03-04, as long as it was an average kind of a year.
Mr. Lemieux: Sorry, I thank the member for his indulgence. The staff is just looking up the number. The number that was selected was not the correct number, but they are looking up and trying to find the accurate number. We do not want to put anything that is not accurate on the record.
Mr. Maguire: I guess my point, Mr. Acting Chairman, in all of this is to do with
the cost of that ferry, and I am assuming that it was borne by the Province. Is
it a private-public, or is it totally run by the
Mr. Lemieux: Yes, the ferry is totally run by the
Mr. Maguire: Mr. Acting Chairman, I appreciate the minister bearing with me in
regard to the tediousness of some of this questioning on this particular
location and this bridge, but I want to just raise this as an example of what
Manitobans think of this Government when it comes to its priorities and where
it is spending its funds in regard to capital projects in the Province of
Manitoba. We have got a bridge that, regardless of how you cut it, taxpayers in
It is nice to be able to
provide a better service than what we had. I do not know how many options were
looked at to see if it could be done for less than $25 million in that area.
But I guess I am looking at it when there are priorities, and the minister has
indicated that they were priorities of his own government, of economic enablers
like 59 south, like No. 1 highway being twinned, like the northeast bypass. Certainly
on all of those roads it is not just an economic enabler, it is a safety issue
with all of those issues. Days like the last two days that we have seen in
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Yet
Is it a priority at this
time to build a bridge like this in
I just want to get a
response from the minister because of his comments yesterday about how
important economic enabling roads are in the province. I know he has talked
about safety before and I have only outlined the three that we have pressed him
on in the House or his predecessors, at least, in regard to the bypass on the
northeast part of the Perimeter. We have seen two deaths in the last six to
eight months in that area, certainly last fall in regard to that area, that
region, and Highway 1 and my particular area. We have seen deaths on the area
from Virden to the
When we have priorities to look at in regard to these kinds of economic impacts, my colleagues and the citizens of Manitoba that I have spoken to or that have urged me to ask the minister these questions are certainly concerned, that we are limiting the amount of capital in a limited budget at a time when we do have a $1.5-billion increase in the overall budget of this Government. So I would just like the minister to respond to that.
Mr. Lemieux: It is more than a pleasure to respond to that. When this Government puts in more than $60 million over the last five years, compared to the previous government's last five years, I would be more than pleased to respond to our commitment to highways infrastructure and highways capital.
This is what we have
done. We have made a commitment. And the people up in Nelson House or
An Honourable Member: I did not say that.
Mr. Lemieux: No, no, the
member did not say that. But he is saying, "well, I did not say it,"
but I can tell you, this is that I am reading into it. When you are saying the
citizens he talks to–the citizens I talk to want to be fair to all Manitobans
whether they live in
I can tell you, in 1997 the Northern Flood Agreement was signed by the Manitoba Government–in 1977, the Northern Flood Agreement was signed by the Manitoba Government, Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board at the time, the Northern Flood Committee, the Government of Canada, several First Nations communities, to provide compensation to those communities for damages caused by hydro-electric development in Manitoba. Fair enough.
In December 1993, an
arbitrator ruled that the existing ferry crossing and ice crossing of the
Nelson River, as part of the access road to
What happened in February 1999, the Court of Appeal upheld the March 1997 arbitration decision. So, in essence, the court was telling the province they need an all-weather road. You need to build that bridge. Build it.
So we were doing so. I do
not want to let anything be left on the record that, somehow, there is
taxpayers' money being wasted here. There is not, and it is not to the
detriment of Winnipeggers or southern Manitobans. This is something that we are
trying to be fair to all parts of the
Mr. Maguire: I appreciate the minister's concern. Obviously, we have hit a little
nerve with him in regard to his priorities in the
Madam Chairperson in the Chair
I am going to turn it
over to some of my colleagues but before I do, I want to just for the record
say that no one on this side of the House did say that those dollars were
wasted. We are saying, "where are the priorities of this Government today."
My honourable colleague from Carman has indicated to me, then what do we use
road counters for in some of these areas of Manitoba, if we are not prepared to
look at improving the transportation mechanisms in those areas in regard to
some of the needed on that as well. I mean we have them. We also have speed
traps to make sure that we are there as well and obeying the laws that we have
out there. I appreciate that. But I will have some further comments and some
further questions for the minister in a short while, but I am going to turn it
over to my colleague from
Mr. Ron Schuler (
Currently what they do is they go on, off of PR 206, they turn on to a driveway going to a development. They turn off. And if I could, please, I would like to table five maps just so that it is clear.
What it is, they have to back into the driveway, approximately 300 feet to get to the fire hydrants. They then fill the tanker up with water and then they pull out. What they are asking for is another turn onto PR 206. Some of the recommendations that came forward in the discussions were what if there was a loop put around the pump station. The problem is there is not enough room because there is a tower. If you look on the map right where the R.M. is, there is a tower there. So there is not enough room for a turnaround. Another issue that was raised by the department is that they did not want that to become a turnaround for a lot of other equipment.
I spoke with Brian Wilkonson, who has been sort of driving this issue. He has said that they would have no problem with putting two posts and a chain across. They would pull the firetruck in. As it is being filled with water, they unlock the chain. They leave it there until all other trucks are finished, the fire has been extinguished. They have to, anyway, empty out the firetrucks that come back, and then they would lock it back up again.
So they are more than willing to make it a fire vehicle access only. In other words it would be blocked off and nobody would be able to use it other than that. I would comment to the minister and his department: when they are fighting these kinds of fires time is of the essence. As you know, the pumpers pump a lot of water, and they have two trucks right now that haul water for them, each time they have to back it up it is a problem.
The other thing is, and I
say this with all due respect to the hardworking volunteers that are on the
The R.M. of
So this is but a small request, and they really would appreciate it if they could get this issue resolved. I have been dealing with this issue now for over two years, and would appreciate it if the minister would have his department take a look one more time at the map and maybe see if they could not get permission. They are more than willing to accommodate the concerns of the department. Let us get that turnaround in there, so that some day it does not come back that there was damage or life lost because there was not enough water supply. I would appreciate it if the minister would task the department to look at this issue one more time.
Mr. Lemieux: I thank the Member for
When I take a look at
That 206 is actually a very busy road. I am not sure on this map the distance between Plympton and the intersection of 206 and 15. Highway 15 has become very, very busy, and the intersection of Provincial Road 207 and 15 is a very busy intersection, and also the intersection of PR 206 and 15 is a very, very busy intersection.
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I will absolutely refer this to the department and get them to take another look at it and see what they can do, if anything can be done.
Mr. Schuler: Just to that, to have the trucks loop around where you have that square box, which is the pump house, there is not enough room because there is a tower right behind that, the communications tower, and these trucks, No. 1, are big and they are heavy. One of the concerns is that that means somebody would always have to be clearing it, and you are starting to get in behind the building where it gets very soft. At least where it is right now you have a harder compact. Once they load these trucks up with water, they do push a lot of weight. This is on PR 206 and is far enough away from PTH 15. The traffic is not as strong. Again, I can say to the minister the traffic does slow down there. I believe that, when they see the flashing lights and they see the big firetrucks, citizens are always mindful; they give way and they allow them to proceed. People in the rural area know that in our communities it is a matter of life and death if you do not get the water there quickly.
Again, I would really appreciate it if the minister–and he has indicated he will task his department to look into it. I thank him for that.
Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): I know that this is not news to the minister and to his staff, but I
do feel that it needs to be re-emphasized again, and that is the four-laning of
Highway 32. I know that your staff has met with city council and you have met
with them as well. Again, just to reiterate the fact, there is a brand-new
Superstore coming out there. I know that the indication has been that this
would be done in stages, but with that, though, the traffic counts are
increasing as well. This is also traffic going, of course, south of the city of
Mr. Lemieux: The short answer is that where the project lies, it is within the large request queue. The member was not here when I mentioned this yesterday, that there is over a billion dollars requested and, regrettably, we cannot come close to putting that kind of money in. Yet every year there is over a billion dollars requested of either new highway infrastructure or roads just like the member from Emerson was asking that we put five inches of pavement on. I think it was Highway 201. It is fine to request it. MLAs are doing their job. They are hearing from their constituents, and I understand that.
The challenge that I, as
the Minister of Transportation, have is that you have a budget and you have a
queue that you are trying to work through. You have professionals who are
within the department. You have, in communities like Winkler–and I should say
this, that the community of Winkler is really a rapidly growing community, and
so is Steinbach. You have a couple of large communities in southern
So the long and the short of it is that the request is within the queue and people are looking at it. There have been no official confirmations of whether or not, or any time lines with regard to when this particular road and project would be addressed. There are other challenges with regard to that community, other access roads that are a real challenge because you have other businesses wanting to build, as well, in the community, and so you need turn-off lanes; you need intersections, possibly lights. All of those things are very expensive, and since we have been in government, we have had many of those businesses contribute towards those changes. As of to date, that currently remains the policy.
Mr. Dyck: I guess the frustration in this one is that this Government and this
minister continue to say that they are encouraging expansion. They enjoy the
growth that takes place and, of course, they tout those areas, but are not
prepared to put the resources out there and, for the city, that is a real
frustration. I do think that the Province does have a responsibility. It is a
provincial road. They are not looking for huge dollars. This is priority spending.
The minister made the comment of a billion dollars. It is absolutely right. I
have heard him say it many times and I am not arguing that point, but I think
that there is a responsibility that this Government, that this minister has to
an area that is growing, and it is one of the fastest-growing communities in
rural
We have immigration. Again, it is one of the highest immigrant areas within the province. But we do have to put resources out there. I know a year ago the minister was out there. He had the Minister of Education (Mr. Bjornson) and announced the school, but we have had the same frustration there, where that has been postponed for another year now.
So what is happening is we continue to promote growth, but we do not put the resources that are out there. The community itself, I think, is feeling that they are being neglected simply. They are not demanding outrageous things, but they are looking at some of those. But I will just continue. The other one of course is that this was on Highway 32 where there is a Superstore coming in. I think the city there is prepared to go for just a part of that but there are huge traffic counts there.
Now on Highway 14 just north of it there is a Wal-Mart that in fact they have started building and they are looking for a turn-off lane. They are not asking for huge dollars, and I know that it is under this administration that some of those parameters had changes to funding. But I would think that being Highway 14, again a major four-lane highway out there, that there would be some responsibility that this administration would have in being able to accommodate that. Yet though it appears that everything that is being asked for is either negative, negative or just postponed forever and a day.
Yes, I do realize that there are all kinds of pressures on this minister throughout the province. I do not rule that out. But I do think, though, that when there is growth the way we see it in southern Manitoba, and if you are going to continue to showcase that as something that is positive within this province, then I do think that some resources need to be put out there to be able to respond to some of that growth.
* (16:20)
Mr. Lemieux: I thank the member for the question. I know he works very, very hard on behalf of his constituents. I heard that as well when I was in the community last. Just with regard to the educational facility that we are talking about, the new school that is going in Winkler, I know it is a growing community. They said when I announced the school that it was very much appreciated, but that because the community is growing so fast that this may not be able to address all their needs. I can appreciate that.
The only example I can give the member is that in my own home community I have a Federated Co-op, a new store that is going up. That organization is responsible for putting in, you know, the turning lanes and doing all the work that is necessary there. So that is in my own home community of Lorette and it is a new store going up. They are looking to open sometime this summer.
Yet these are tough decisions that you have to make. Listening to a lot of other Transportation ministers, even though the federal Transport Minister, Mr. Tony Valeri, talks about transportation being an economic enabler and trying to assist companies and businesses to develop, we believe that and we have done that. We have tried to participate in that, yet you only have so many dollars in the trunk of the car. You are trying to expend those dollars to try to keep the system together, and you are trying to also look at new potential projects that are going up.
I know members are maybe sick and tired of hearing me mention this but about the northeast Perimeter. The northeast Perimeter is a huge project. [interjection]
Yes, for the City of
I know it can be awfully frustrating for people to hear this but when you have over a billion dollars requested you only have so much money to put into the infrastructure system.
Mr. Dyck: Could I have a definition of the queue? I need to know what is the queue. What is the scope of the queue?
Mr. Lemieux: The queue I refer to is the over a billion dollars in requests that
have been asked for by communities and rural municipalities in
Mr. Dyck: The minister is now prepared to give me a year as to when they will even start to look at this. I mean, it is in the queue, but are we looking at next year we are going to start four-laning?
Mr. Lemieux: I thank the member for the question. When we just look around this room, I am not going to mention how many members are here and so on, but all MLAs in this Legislature have a tremendous amount of requests with regard to needy projects in their own constituencies. I do not begrudge any MLA for bringing the concerns of their constituents to this table or to the Legislature. I am just saying that you try to have a system that is equitable. You are looking around. I mean, when you take a look at, for example, the community of Winkler, I think it was in '02–I stand to be corrected on the exact date–but we put about $2 million into their main street and to that community. It is a drop in the bucket, but I will get the correct date of that 2 million or so dollars that was put into Winkler.
It is just that, as I
mentioned, there are so many requests with regard to the amount of dollars, and
there are so many dollars with regard to being requested from the department.
It is a huge challenge. I guess I would just ask in this upcoming federal
election that the member from Pembina and other members hold the candidates'
feet to the fire with regard to this issue about federal dollars coming into
the provinces and try to put some of that gas tax money back into
Mr. Dyck: Okay, so basically there is not a light at the end of the tunnel.
I will now turn it over to the Member for Morris.
Mr. Lemieux: No, no, Madam Chairperson, I want to address that. I appreciate the
comments the member made. I am certainly not ruling it out and neither is the
department, but what we are doing is weighing a lot of priorities in the
province and a lot of needs in the province with regard to new projects,
compared to a rehab, and trying to keep the system together, is what I am
saying. Oh, no, I would never rule it out because it is a very important
community in
Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): I would just like to start by thanking the minister and his staff because, whenever I have asked for things from the department, they have been expedient and I have been granted access to members within the department. I thank the minister for that. The previous minister was not as comfortable with that.
I just want to confirm something from yesterday. You mentioned the number of kilometres that the Province is responsible for. I think you said 93 000. I wanted to confirm that.
Mr. Lemieux: Nineteen thousand.
Mrs. Taillieu: Nineteen. Thank you. I will refer that to a constituent of mine who questioned my 93 yesterday.
I know that, within the departments, there is a vying for scarce resources. We all recognize that, but I am wondering how actively the minister lobbies for finances for the Transportation Department?
Mr. Lemieux: I thank the member for the question. I will take it as, not a
cynical question, but I will take it as a legitimate question. When you have a
team or a government in place, and you are talking about lobbying–I do not
think, necessarily, that "lobbying" is the right word. You are
looking at a lot of needs in the province, whether they be Family Services and
Housing; whether they be Education, Culture, Heritage and Tourism; whether it
be Sport; whether it be Health. There are a lot of needs in the province, and a
lot of polling that is done in the
I will just try to conclude my quick comments about these 19 000 kilometres of roads. The department does a very, very good job of trying to hold that together. I know that the department has tried to be very, very helpful with any MLAs contacting–and I try to be as well. If anyone wants information, we will try to get it to them as quickly as we possibly can. I know the department tries to be very helpful that way too, and they do a very good job.
Mrs. Taillieu: No, the comment was not meant to be cynical at all. It is recognizing that there are many people vying for the scarce resources. As a minister, I expect that you would be doing the same within your department.
There are a number of concerns, of course, within the constituency as other members have brought forward. I even hesitate to name all of the roadways that I have been questioned on, but I will ask about a few. One that I would like to ask about is Highway 305; it is a B road. The problem is, of course, that the person that has contacted me who lives on that road, who has farmed on that road for 36 years and, now, finds himself overweight the minute he leaves his farmyard is facing fines of up to $900 to haul his grain. The reason that this is happening is because grain handling has evolved quite substantially–
* (16:30)
Madam Chairperson: Order, please. We are having a little trouble hearing. I just remind all members to please give the speaker the courtesy of speaking so everyone can hear.
Mrs. Taillieu: Madam Chairperson, as I was saying, the person that lives on 305 has difficulty now leaving his farmyard because he is overweight with weight restrictions. That is because this road and other roads have not evolved to the same degree as the grain handling industry has. Through no fault of his own, he is subject to fines. I am wondering if there is any allocation or any way that a person in this situation could be grandfathered because he has been on that farm for 36 years.
Mr. Lemieux: I thank the Member for Morris for the question. I do not know the
particular circumstances behind the question and where the farmer is located
exactly. I have a map in front of me and I am looking at–there is Long Plains
First Nations there and there is also Swan Lake First Nations and also Dakota
First Nations. But I am not sure exactly where on that road–I think it was 305,
running south of
I just want to state that what the department has tried to do is try to look at, especially those level two roads where you have farming communities and farmers on those roads where you have an exempt commodity policy with regard to agriculture; where people can go up to 90 percent of spring weights where they do not need–but in other words, an exception is being made in a way to try to address the agricultural community.
Now what we are doing is bringing in a truck productivity bill, which is before the Legislature which will enable farming communities, as well as businesses, in Manitoba to address a situation where a road is being destroyed or affected in a negative way as a result of the traffic they can contribute in a way toward that particular stretch of road or bridge. So this is something that the bill is being put forward right now where there are many, many interested parties that are looking at this, because they realize that our infrastructure system is being damaged as a result of the increase in traffic and the loads that are going onto those roads.
The exempt commodity policy is trying to address the needs of the agricultural community and the agribusiness in a small way. I am not sure of the particular circumstances behind this, but I know that is something that I do not know, if this particular individual or individuals had been in contact with the department to discuss this exempt commodity policy that is in place.
Mrs. Taillieu: A letter was forwarded from me to the Department of Transportation, but it may have been to the previous minister. I can provide you with a copy of the letter and a map to show you it is on 305 south of Brunkild.
I will move on to another
question, though. I am wondering if there is an overall strategy for handling
the maintenance and construction of roads in southern
But there must be an overall plan in place, and I am wondering if there are specifics of that plan that you could provide me with.
Mr. Lemieux: Well, again, I thank the member for the question. I think this question actually is an extremely important question because the previous administration, without getting too much into the politics of it, I believe, did not have a five-year plan and did not have a four-year plan, and did not have a two-year plan or a twelve-year plan. What we are trying to do is that when the RoadWorks plan that we had is a five-year plan–$600 million over that period of time. We are looking at putting those kinds of dollars into the transportation infrastructure system.
We had a 20-20 vision committee go out and consult with the public in a number of different communities and talk to people about long-term vision as far as transportation and the transportation infrastructure system that we have, and where people want to see it go. A couple of the things that came out of that–and there has not been a final report, yet, completed, but I am looking forward to getting that–is that people want to be able to ensure that there is some transparency to the system; there is some equity to the system. I think that is very, very important to note because it is something that I firmly support as well, in a way.
Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff,
Acting Chairperson, in the Chair
I think that in order to
be able to plan long-range and take a look at the challenges we have in
I know there are a number of different projects that come into this billion-dollar queue that we talk about, and the requests that are continually put forward to the department every year–the department, with its engineers and staff, takes a look at trying to prioritize needs on roads which they monitor on an on-going basis. Also, now what we are finding is that the structures, the bridges that we have on highways, in crossing our provincial highways, have also taken a beating over the years. There are trucks travelling on these roads that we never expected to have the loads that they have, and never really anticipated that, in certain instances, we would not have the traffic in a particular jurisdiction that we do have now.
So the long and the short of it is that I believe that there needs to be consensus with regard to a five-year plan that is transparent and is open, in a way. Also, it is a plan, I think, that Manitobans can look at and know whether their community or road is on this particular plan and, at least, they can, I think, feel some level of comfort that there is some criteria that went into doing this planning. I think that is really where transportation should go. I think that is something out of the 20-20 consultation process. Some of this came out with regard to the openness and the transparency that needs to be in the system.
* (16:40)
Mrs. Taillieu: Just one more question with regard to Highway No. 1. There has been
some federal money allocated for the upgrading of the
However, I think the intent was to have that available for the 2004-2005 construction year, but the understanding is that is going to be delayed. I am wondering, when you talk about the upgrading of Highway 59 and we see that there is an allocation over maybe a five or six-year period, I am wondering what the time-frame will be to do the reconstruction on Highway No. 1 and, as well, not just stop at the intersection at Bridge Road, Highway 241, but to go further through the intersection at Dodds Road and just west of that.
Mr. Lemieux: I thank the Member for Morris for the question. I just want to comment that in many, many different projects, no matter what it is, I know you mention Highway 59 south which is also an important project, as well as the twinning of the northeast Perimeter. But with regard to all of those projects and the projects that we have mentioned previously today, there is often acquisition of right-of-way, acquisition of property. There is engineering that has to happen. Sometimes you have to deal with the utilities to ensure that that is taken care of. I know that we are looking at John Blumberg and the cover-all also at the Husky Station, in the Husky access. Part of that is also SHIP dollars. In '05 we are looking at possible utility revisions.
So there are a number of different issues that come into play when you are doing a particular stretch of road like the stretch from the Perimeter to Headingley. There is a lot of traffic that goes through the community of Headingley every day, and it is on our No. 1 highway as well.
So I just want to say that there are dollars in play right now, but it has a lot to do with the engineering and the up-front work. Often that is what has to happen instead of just jumping in and doing the work, you have to have the acquisition of property, utilities and engineering take place prior to the beginning of a project.
Mrs. Taillieu: Just on that remark on the allocation of funds for acquisition of property. How much of the Transportation budget is actually designated for acquisition of property and not meant for the construction of roads?
Mr. Lemieux: Well, the acquisition of land and the purchase of the land is a hand-in-glove situation where you cannot build a road, often, if you are building a new structure or redoing a road and changing the accesses and so on, without purchasing property. So it is all part of capital. It really varies from year to year depending if you are building new and what you are acquiring. So it truly does vary from year to year, but it is part of it if you are doing, as I mentioned, renovations to a road compared to building new. It varies from year to year and it is all included within capital.
Madam Chairperson in the Chair
Mrs. Taillieu: With this recent snowstorm and the stoppage of traffic along the Trans-Canada Highway, one of the problems that occurred in Headingley is the traffic took an alternate route and veered off at 241, went through the Village of Headingley out toward Beaudry Park and then got on to a gravel road and further found access to the Trans-Canada. In doing so, there is a three-mile stretch of road that has completely been destroyed and I have had a number of calls from residents along that road. I am wondering what the minister–will he address the problem with that stretch that has been torn up? The traffic routing, I think, was not properly managed there.
Mr. Lemieux: Just with regard to the snowstorm, I mean, no one expects a snowstorm to happen at this time of the year. Regrettably, most of us in this room probably had our lawnmowers out or golf clubs out, or fishing rods out, and getting ready–farmers, more in particular, were out there on the fields working and expecting to look forward to their crops coming up, not expecting to have a tremendous amount of snow dumped on them. I can tell you that the department, after the highway being closed by the RCMP, getting out there as quickly as humanly possible to address the situation, and after a couple of days having the roads cleaned without a fatality, without a serious accident taking place is extremely important.
What could have happened was there was potential there for a tremendous amount of accidents to take place. Regrettably, when the plows get out there trying to clean the roads, what happens? What do they encounter? Some semis that are buried in snowbanks, cars that are buried in snowbanks that tried to take shortcuts and go around the gates and take detours around. Why people do this, I am not sure. Those are the kinds of things the highways crew encounter trying to clean the roads. Yet they are unable to do it as quickly as they could because of the impediments that were there; people taking shortcuts.
It is regrettable if any other roads were damaged because of people wanting to dodge or take shortcuts around barricades where the police were there to protect them from any harm, because there were plows on the road. We do not want people running into snowplows or having plows running into them with the blustery conditions and the whiteout conditions that took place out there. It is regrettable that people want to do this and want to take it upon themselves to try to take shortcuts.
The only comment I wish to make is that I do not know whether or not the department has any indication yet as to the damage that is taking place on a lot of the roads that may have been used as detours or shortcuts. Again, it is regrettable people wanting to take those shortcuts and detours and it does have an impact on roads. I understand that. The department has not had an opportunity to evaluate any kind of damage, or extraordinary damage that would take place under these particular conditions.
Mrs. Taillieu: Will the minister then commit to have staff go out and have a look at this stretch of road on Highway 241?
Mr. Lemieux: I think in a situation like this where you have a lot of snow, melting snow on a lot of roads, whether they be gravel or otherwise, that the department is very diligent in taking a look at our provincial roads, our provincial highways, to find out what kind of condition they are in and what kind of state they are in.
That is part of the challenge. You only have so many bodies that work for the department and are staff of the department and there are 19 000 kilometres worth of highways in the province. I realize that the one that the member is asking about in particular–I am sure people will, if they have not already, they probably have because I know that in my short tenure as Minister of Transportation, calls come in immediately about a situation if they are living on that road. They will be on the phone contacting the regional office or phoning someone, if not my office the deputy's office or others, to have someone look at it.
So I will ensure that people, if they have not already, which I think they probably have, I will ensure that they take a look at the road. Thank you.
* (16:50)
Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Highway 59 south of St. Malo to 201 was scheduled for construction when the NDP government took over. Can we expect any construction on that road within the next decade?
Mr. Lemieux: I thank the Member for Emerson for the question. This if I might
just complete maybe a bit of a comment that I made to the member from Morris,
that on Highway 59 south being very, very important. As she stated, which I
agree with and mention that over five years that that particular project will
be done. We are looking at completing that project by the fall of '06. By the
fall of '06 certainly by Christmas on Highway 59, the portion that we are
twinning now. The next phase that we are going on from just west of Ile des
Chệnes. But with regard to the portion of highway south of St. Malo, or
even south of Highway 52, what I have heard from a lot of the R.M.s in the
area, as well as other people and even the professionals within the Department
of Transportation, is that the majority of the traffic really tapers off after
Highway 52. The majority of the traffic takes place from Highway 52 to
Yet there is a lot of
potential to tourism, to the campground in St. Malo. The community of
Unless the federal government, all of a sudden, decides to give us that $165 million in gas tax, that might change the circumstances. Even then, having said that, and I have mentioned this–and I do not think I am saying anything out of school here–to councillors in that particular area of the province that the traffic counts and the amount of traffic that is happening there, currently–it does not mean that will not change in years to come–but, essentially, does not justify to have that particular section of road twinned to the United States border.
I am not sure if that is what the member is asking at all, but I just wanted to put on the record that, even if the federal government were to come forward with that $165 million in gas tax, currently, those monies would not go down to that section of road because the traffic does not warrant it at present.
Mr. Penner: Just for the minister's edification, there was no intent of twinning that section of road. The highways department's plan was to put shoulders on that road and reconstruct the shoulders and resurface. That was supposed to have been done five years ago. The NDP administration, of course, took the money into somewhere else and spent it somewhere else. I was wondering whether the reconstruction would be done within the next decade.
The second question that
I had was Highway 210, which we were going to put basin-AST on from Highway 12
to
Mr. Lemieux: I thank the member for the question. I know that just having looked and talked to the department about what was in the queue and what was kind of scheduled, apparently, Highway 59, with regard to the work, was not concrete as far as work that was going to be done on that particular stretch. Mind you, when you take a look at that stretch of road south of St. Malo to the Stuartburn area, or Stuartburn corner almost, it is hard to tell with regard to the amount of traffic that might increase on that particular road, or the actual quality of the road. I am searching for a word with regard–not quality, but the stability of the road. How it is holding together and what is happening with the road is also going to impact on the department taking a look and the department staff that are in that region that monitor the highways and the roads all the time.
I know that the member from Emerson had large amounts of money poured into that constituency during the latter nineties, which was important. It is a growing area of the province, as well as Winkler and the Steinbach area. In one year, I think it was '94-95, there was $16 million put into Emerson. I am not sure exactly what took place. Then, another $12 million in '95-96; and, then, another $13 million in '96-97; huge amounts of dollars that were put into the Emerson constituency or that particular area of the province. I do not begrudge that in the sense that there must have been a need and the department did that. But the challenge is that when people are trying to evaluate and determine where the priorities are with regard to roads, again, there are very, very difficult choices that the staff and the department have to make. You are really dependent on the engineers and staff to make that call, to make that decision as to where the dollars go. Currently, my understanding is that there is no intent to address those particular stretches in the near future.
Mr. Penner: Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson and Mr. Minister. I want to just indicate my appreciation to the department of highways and the work that they did under the Conservative administration.
Hopefully, there will be a Conservative administration back there soon and we will be able to continue the work that we did. Thank you.
Mr. Lemieux: I will not thank the Member for Emerson for his comments, but I do respect the job that he does. He works very, very hard on behalf of his constituents. I have to say that. I mean, when you in a period of about five years get $41 million poured into your constituency, or thereabouts–maybe his colleagues do not even realize that, that we are part of that. That is fine, because I know that the Department of Transportation made sure that it was a priority. There was a need there, and there is no doubt there would have been a need in that portion of the province, and you have to respect that. Thank you.
Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Just a couple of quick questions to the minister.
Can the minister tell me how much of the Budget, what percentage of the Budget, is spent above the 53rd parallel?
* (17:00)
Mr. Lemieux: When we are looking at the North, there is a northern administrative
district that we look at. It is not just the parallel that we look at with
regard to the 53rd parallel. But having said that, I just want to state that
our Government has made a commitment to northern
The two previous
ministers, the former minister from Thompson and the former minister from
Brandon West, both kind of adhered to this policy of trying to ensure that
northern
Whether that is a fair
comment or not, I do not know. I mean, I was not a member of the Legislature in
the nineties. I am not that familiar with policies or what the previous
government had decided to do in northern
Mr. Derkach: Madam Chairperson, I did not get an answer to my question. I was not asking the minister to justify any expenditure. I simply asked what percentage of the Budget is being spent north of 53. The minister tells me that they do not keep statistics on a latitudinal basis, but they do it on a district basis. That is fine. If he can identify what the district is, where it is, and then he can identify what percentage of the Budget is spent in the northern district as compared to the rest of the province, that would be helpful.
Mr. Lemieux: I think the goal, initially, was set at trying to put 25 percent of the budget into northern Manitoba, whatever that description may be, whether it varies from person to person, but, essentially, I think we have been averaging anywhere from between 22 and 25 percent in there with regard to the last number of years.
Mr. Derkach: Madam Chairperson, is the minister telling me that 25 percent of the maintenance and the capital budget is expended in the northern district, or north of 53?
Mr. Lemieux: Yes, I know that the focus has been with regard to capital and not maintenance, as the member refers to. We looked at mainly capital with regard to this particular–whether it is the northern district or using 53rd, we are primarily looking at capital dollars with regard to that particular commitment.
Mr. Derkach: I would not ask the department to try and figure out the exact
amounts today but, if the minister could take under advisement the question
with respect to how much money is spent, what percentage of the budget is spent
in northern
Now that is a pretty big area, but it does include all the agricultural part of the province. If the minister could undertake to give me those numbers, not today, but at some near future date, that would be acceptable, and I will conclude my remarks in that regard.
Mr. Lemieux: We will attempt to get that for the Member for Russell. Not that we find the request that unusual, but in parcelling off the province into rural and north, I will take the question at face value and we will attempt to get those numbers and see what we can provide with regard to those dollars.
Mr. Derkach: Finally, I am not going to ask any questions on specific roads. I think I can approach the minister on those outside of this Chamber, but I simply know that the commerce in agri-Manitoba is under stress because our roads are falling apart, and there is, indeed, a tremendous amount of need out there. I think that we need to be able to answer our constituents and people who ask the questions as to how much capital money, how much maintenance money is being spent in these parts of the province.
It is not a judgment issue; it is not one that I am going to judge the minister on, but I think it is a question that has been asked, and a question that we need to have some answers for. With that, I conclude my questions to the minister.
Mr. Denis Rocan (Carman): I am hoping to move things along here in an orderly fashion, sort of expedite the process as we are moving along through the department of highways and transportation. I have several issues that I want to bring forward at this time.
I would be remiss right now because I have the floor, to take a few moments to publicly thank Marlene Zyluk and all her staff for the wonderful work they have done on behalf of the Government of Manitoba. I say that sincerely because there has never been an occasion where I have not had the opportunity to call Marlene Zyluk no matter how big or small the issue. She has always been kind enough to grant an interview with certain individuals from my constituency. We thought they had been hard done by and she has taken the time with staff to explain to the individuals. She has put out an awful lot of fires for you, Mr. Minister, and those who sat in that chair before you. I understand here, having made a few snide comments to Madam Zyluk that she is not moving along as you integrate the two departments. I publicly want to just thank Marlene Zyluk at this time for all her hard work and a great big thank you on behalf of my constituents.
Nobody is going to sit here and talk to me about roads and the kind of work that has to be done. Sitting here before you, Mr. Minister, is a former truck driver who did an awful lot of road construction, whether it be up at Thompson, whether it be up at Nelson House, Snow Lake, Flin Flon, Wabowden, Ponton, Grand Rapids.
I have lived in camps all the way along for numerous years working on these highways. I listened to your remarks intently when you say there would be nobody in this room who would begrudge anybody from the kind of work that is happening. Sir, I would want to agree with you because there are several roads up there–it might be small communities, but I believe individuals, everybody should have a right to try and get access to the greater world, and you need that by travelling up on a good road.
Needless to say, my constituents also who we take up the biggest portion of the province of Manitoba, and I am going to list for you, sir, several highways, and I say several highways that probably covers the biggest part of this map. If I was to say 2, 3, 23, 34, 240, 305, 242 to 350 to 342, the 245, the 532, the 449, the 338, the 336, the 332, the 306, the 428, the 432, the 244; these are all roads, Mr. Minister, that need help.
I will take a moment and
congratulate you for the little bit of work that we had done north of
Fannystelle on 248. I do understand
that you have scarce dollars. But you also have to understand our position
because the size of the loads, the size of the trucks are getting bigger.
Farmers have to take their goods to market. We travel further distances now
than we ever did. I used to think travelling 500 miles a day was a long way
when I was taking a load a day to
* (17:10)
We have several roads that we beseech the minister with. If you want to use the terminology, our wish list. We ask you to spend, spend, spend because when we see the size of the vehicles and the amount of repairs that the farmers have to put out there to try and keep their trucks up and running, in good roadworthy shape. We find that they have to bump-bump-bumpety-bump all over and down these highways that are falling apart and thereby coming to pieces, specifically in the springtime. So these are sort of the comments that I want to make initially to this minister, regardless of how scarce your dollars are, sir.
I hear the Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach), who is asking you the question, "Well, how many dollars are spent north of the 53rd?" You and I both know he is trying to set you up for a trap because, whatever dollar figure you are going to throw out, also you are going to hear the next question, "Yes, but 80 percent of the province, of the population is 100 miles from the American border, so why are you not spending that money there?" I know, sir, because of the questions that I have with you, you take it to heart. I kind of wrote that the road work that needs to be done. I am being very public today when I appreciate the effort and the time that you try to look after my roads.
Now you are going to want
a question after all that big diatribe–some of the simple ones, before the
Member for
Mr. Lemieux: Thank you very much for the question. I am not sure whether or not the department has looked at this particular situation already and has any kind of recommendations based on it.
I have had the pleasure of talking with the MLA for Carman on a number of other issues. Once again, he is a strong advocate for his constituency and his constituents and works very, very hard on their behalf and raises, not only in a forum like this, but even with the previous ministers, questions trying to address many different issues, not only transportation issues and highways and bridges issues, but raises all kinds of issues and does not need a forum such as this to do that.
I guess what I can say is
that I will endeavour to look into this for the member and try to find out
where this might be at, this particular situation. I cannot make any promises
or commitments, but I certainly will endeavour to find out and educate myself
and enlighten myself as to what the challenges are there. I have had the
pleasure of travelling on No. 2 and going to
Just with regard to
Marlene Zyluk that the member
mentioned, he was very gracious in his comments, as she has been a tremendous
civil servant for the
I would say that, with regard to the other comments about the Member for Russell's (Mr. Derkach) question, it is almost fishing season, so I would expect the Member for Russell to raise a question like that. Trapping season is over, but I am beginning, after five years, to recognize a trap when I see one.
In fairness to the Member
for Russell, too, I would just state that he will be correct in saying that the
majority of the population is in southern
We have two years left on RoadWorks on the previous five-year commitment we made in the plan. We look forward to looking at a possible five-year plan and bringing that forward, whatever moniker or title it might have on it. I think that is something that people are requesting and I think legitimately would need.
Thank you to the Member for Carman (Mr. Rocan) for that question. We will endeavour to look into it and find out what the situation is. In fact, I would almost be willing to guarantee that the staff have some idea of the challenges there, because their challenge is not recognizing what the problems are, their challenge, I think, within the department, and my challenge is trying to look at a possible way to fund the billion dollars' worth of requests that continually come in. We know it is impossible to do, and yet, if we keep saying that it is an economic driver, an economic enabler, as Minister Valeri has stated repeatedly, and I think we are all stating the same thing, that transportation is becoming more and more important, agri-business, tourism and so on. We are going to have to address many of these challenges in years to come.
Mr. Rocan: The minister, in his remarks to a previous question, talks about a bill, and I understand it is not the forum where I should be talking about it, but because he raised it in his answer, a particular bill which is being brought forward–and I want to use the terminology and I did not quite get what he said, the user-based–
An Honourable Member: Truck productivity.
Mr. Rocan: That is what it was. I notice his, and I cannot help but notice, but his deputy is sitting there beside him.
We had a young fellow,
and I will put it on the record, because the young fellow was adamant that he
was trying to get his road fixed which was north of St. Claude. The young
fellow's name was Andre Dequier. Young Andre Dequier inherited a farm from his
mother, north of St. Claude; it happened to be on a PR road. A beautiful
facility, but he had built it up in such a way that they were offloading cattle
from
Has the minister considered at all looking into the sort of dilemma that Andre Dequier presently faces, north of St. Claude?
Mr. Lemieux: These are situations that are not easy. When someone inherits a farm or business, they want to be, they certainly do not want to be a burden on the Province or anywhere else. They are a free enterpriser. They want to conduct their business. They are a businessperson. They are there to make a profit, but they are also there in a way to contribute to the Province. I think that is fair enough.
* (17:20)
In this particular situation, I have been advised by the department that when they spoke to the gentleman, and also took a look at the request and the road they were looking at, it looked like–you know when you are looking at putting RTAC weights or trying to do something on that road that the road has to be able to be, I guess, a good enough road to be able to do that, and be able to not only invest that kind of money in it. You want to make sure that it is going to remain and it is going to be there for a while. Under the expertise I guess and the professionalism that we have in the department, and the engineers that we have, the decision was made that it was not able to be done at this particular time.
So I guess the decision stands as is today. But it is situations like this where I can tell the Member for Carman this is something that I encounter almost literally daily, where there are so many requests coming in. The economy of the Province has changed, and I think you touched on it. I think the Member for Carman (Mr. Rocan) touched on this: how the trucks are different, sizes are different.
What we are trying to do
is where we are into a different economy. I mean, I guess it is a great thing
that the economy of
The easy comment is to say, "yes, we will do something about it; we will take care of it." But regrettably I cannot say that. It is more difficult to say, "sorry, or no, we cannot do it," particularly at this time. Regrettably that is the situation we are left in.
Mr. Rocan: Very quickly. Treherne yard, Carman yard, Elm Creek yard, Holland yard, and I appreciate the Minister for Healthy Living (Mr. Rondeau) trying to very quickly find for me the listing on full-time employees that the department of highways further may have.
I guess my question that I am putting to him: Is the minister reducing any of his staff within the department? Are you considering at all in those yards that I have presently mentioned? Is there any reduction of staff that is going to be coming out of that area?
Mr. Lemieux: The member, in some of the yards that he referred to and some of the
locations, is maintenance yards, primarily, I understand it. There is not
intent currently to look at that. But I should tell you that we are always
looking for efficiencies for the benefit of
Hon. Jon Gerrard (
The first point would be in terms of the fuel tax revenue that is attributable to motor vehicles. That would include presumably all of the gas tax and the diesel tax which is attributable to vehicles which run on roads. Does it include agricultural implements? What is included? What is excluded?
Mr. Lemieux: I thank the Member for
Mr. Gerrard: In terms of road infrastructure, does that include purchase of land, does that include bridges? What is all included?
Mr. Lemieux: Yes, it is.
Mr. Gerrard: In the report which we get, will that all be broken down in terms of the specifics of how the dollars are used?
Mr. Lemieux: I am not clear on what report the Member for
Mr. Gerrard: The report is six months after the end of each fiscal year, if this legislation passes.
Mr. Lemieux: With all respect to the Member for
Mr. Gerrard: Well, I would hope that the Minister of Transportation would be able to report on the various costs which go into road infrastructure, but I will, in the interests of time, hope that perhaps the Minister of Transportation can provide a written list of the items which would be included in road infrastructure.
Let me ask a couple of other questions. What is the timing for the completion of the Kenaston underpass?
Mr. Lemieux: Currently, this is a project that has been long in coming, and it is
something that I know we looked at when we were looking at the True North
Centre. It is something that we are very pleased to be a partner in. Again,
this question might be better posed to the Minister responsible for Intergovernmental
Affairs (Ms. Mihychuk) or possibly the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger). This
is not something that my department has necessarily a direct relationship to,
even though it is dealing with part of the transportation infrastructure system
of the city of
Mr. Gerrard: Well, I am sorry to hear that the Minister of Transportation is not
privy to transportation planning in the City of
Mr. Lemieux: Well, I thank the Member for
Mr. Gerrard: Right in Mather, and the people in Mather, in the municipality, would make the adjustments on both sides of the culvert. But it is up to the provincial department to lower the culvert to solve the problem.
Mr. Lemieux: Well, I would certainly want to take that as notice. I will ask the department to bring this to my attention with regard to this particular issue, and to determine what is being done, or what the status of this particular culvert is for this particular community. I think it is imperative that, well, it is not imperative, but I will ensure that I try to bring it back during this particular process. If not, I will get back to the member as soon as I can.
Just wanting also to complete, that–
Madam Chairperson: The time being 5:30, I am interrupting proceedings. The Committee of Supply will resume sitting tomorrow (Friday) at 10 a.m.
* (14:50)
Mr. Chairperson (Conrad
We are on page 117 of the Estimates book. The table is now open for questions.
Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): My next question is with respect to an individual who was appointed a magistrate by this minister a couple of years ago. His character seems to have been called into question earlier this year, a magistrate by the name of Ken Courchene, who was appointed for the Pine Falls-Powerview area. It all came about as a result of a review that was done of the Auditor's report of a foundation that was on Sagkeeng First Nation. It was found that it raised some very serious concerns about a perception of poor judgment and conduct unbecoming of a judicial officer.
In fact, that came directly from one of the minister's own deputy ministers. I think justice is all about perception. I believed at that time and I believe at this time as well that Mr. Courchene should have had the courage and the conviction to resign at that point. I ask the minister, because he or his department appointed Mr. Courchene, at the time why did he not immediately suspend him from duty? I know that he referred it to a judge of the court in terms of determining the issue. But I think that he had the authority to grant him that position as magistrate. I think he should have had the authority to have at least suspended him in the meantime until these allegations were either proved or unproved.
Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Actually, in terms of the use of the word "authority," there certainly are very serious concerns on the part of the department as to whether there is legal and constitutional authority to do as the member suggests. They are very serious concerns.
Just a bit of background on this, magistrates are appointed by way of a process, and the process that applies is first, advertisement; second of all, application; third, interviews; then a recommendation to the Chief Judge who, in turn, will make a recommendation to the Government. Just as the Cabinet appoints judges, that does not mean then that Cabinet can at will suspend or revoke the appointment of a judge. As judicial officers of the court, it is important that there be a process and a respect for the constitutional independence of that branch of government, and I mean government in the broad sense.
The selection committee, as I understand it, regarding the matter in question, was comprised of the deputy mayor of one of the communities affected, Powerview, I understand; also, a representative from the First Nation, as well as a person from the court, as I recall.
The person complained about by the member was the only one recommended for appointment as a result of this process. I understand that there was a criminal record check done and there was no record of an offence or a conviction. So, therefore, the Chief Judge made a recommendation and the Government respected that recommendation.
So, once the appointment
has been made, the appropriate way to deal with concerns is for the court and
Chief Judge to consider options. Given that this individual is under the
management of the
It is my understanding that the matter was referred to the Chief Judge by the department, and information from the report cited by the member was provided. The Chief Judge considered the matter and made a determination that, in the absence of a criminal record, let alone even charges, it would be inappropriate to remove or suspend a person. It was also my understanding that if circumstances changed, that there may be other considerations.
That was the decision of the Chief Judge. I think for a government to interfere with that determination would be, I think, questionably legal or constitutionally suspect.
By the way, I know that if governments began to remove or suspend judicial officers based on political pressures or considerations, the judicial independence of the decision-making ability of magistrates could be called into question. So I think that process is very important here. I thank the Chief Judge for considering this matter that the department requested he do. So that is the background to that matter.
Mr. Hawranik: My next question is with respect to a crime that was committed about four years ago and, yet, no charges have ever been laid.
On October 25, 2000, Beverly Rowbotham, who lived near Selkirk, was killed. I understand that three years ago, the RCMP submitted its case in the Beverly Rowbotham murder to the Alberta Crown Attorney's office for review, I think, partly because of the fact that he held a senior advisory position, her husband, at least, held a senior advisory position with government. I am told that the file is still open and still no charges have been laid. I would like to ask the minister what is the status of this case, and is the investigation continuing.
Mr. Mackintosh: I have just asked the department if there is any information on this matter. I have just been advised that the RCMP have recently, I think within the last few months, three months or so, confirmed that there is an active investigation.
Mr. Hawranik: Can the minister advise whether he has communicated with the Alberta Justice department, and if so, on what date and what was the nature of that communication with respect to this case?
Mr. Mackintosh: No, my office is not involved in investigations. This is not a matter that has been one that I have been involved with. That is not the process.
* (15:00)
Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Chairperson, my next question is with respect to the abuse program. That is the partnership that pairs police with social workers to deal with domestic violence calls that police get every year; the Family Violence Intervention Program. I know there was an issue at one time, in fact, in January of this year as to whether or not it would be winding down. They stated if the provincial government does not agree to co-fund the project. I asked the question in Question Period with respect to that and the minister had mentioned that he was pleased to announce that there was funding available to the City. I take it from that he meant the money that would come from red-light cameras and photo radar. Can the minister confirm that that is what he was referring to?
Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, I understand there was support for that response from at least
one member opposite. But we have written to the City and I can say that in that
letter, we say that, we note that the initiative has likely provided cost
savings to the City of
We also noted in our
correspondence that we understood that Mayor Murray committed in the 2002
election to make that pilot project a permanent project, presumably in
recognition of the benefits and the objectives of the initiative. We also let
the City know that as a result of a decision by the Province to adjust fine
levels for certain offences, we anticipated that, and that is not with regard
to new cameras, that was with regard to increased fine revenue that came into
force for the current fiscal year. It was anticipated that an additional 1.45
million would flow to the City of
So we offered those
revenues to provide the City with an opportunity to continue this program and
perhaps it could expand this program with those dollars. That has been our
position. I think that is a reasonable way to enable the City to continue this
program, which by the way, is entirely a City program. It was piloted by the
City and I commend the City of
Mr. Hawranik: Can the minister confirm that in actual fact that there is no money in the current budget for that initiative, that, in fact, what he was speaking of was just reminding the City that they can use the funds that they were going to be receiving under photo radar and red light cameras and just reminding them that they could use that fund because it was for public safety and policing initiatives? Could he confirm that there is no new money coming from the Province, that all he was doing was confirming that they could, in fact, use existing money that was in place, and something that they were already aware of, that there was actually no new money coming in?
Mr. Mackintosh: Well, this is new money that flows to the City because of an announcement made at the very end of January on adjustments to fines. I will leave it to the City to make its own budget decisions. It has to make its own priorities, but what I do hear from the City is argument that they would like new revenues, not just new grants. So this certainly provides them with some flexibility as a result of the adjustment of fine levels, which was a decision of the Province.
Mr. Hawranik: My next question to the minister is with respect to the Driskell case. I noted that, in a recent article in the Winnipeg Sun, it indicated that the Justice Minister launched a second review in the Driskell case to see whether the Crown attorneys, who put James Driskell behind bars, disclosed all the evidence they had to defence lawyers. Can the minister advise who is doing the report; when it will be completed; and, if it is not completed, when will it be; and, if it is completed, can he provide me with a copy?
Mr. Mackintosh: The request was that the report be prepared as soon as reasonably practical. So the completion date is only within the powers of retired Judge John Enns. So this is phase two of Judge Enns's review of disclosure matters relating to Driskell. The first phase was done on a timely basis, and I hope that the second one is as well. But, you know, his inquiries depend on co-operation of third parties of individuals, indeed the Driskell team, in getting access to the defence files. So I have to leave it in his hands.
Mr. David Faurschou (
I would like to ask the
Minister of Justice as it pertains to the women's correctional centre in
Mr. Mackintosh: That is the Government Services budget, and so I will have to get
that determination from that minister. I will just add this, though, that the
matter is under review, as the member knows. It is my hope that the
consultation process will happen, and then we can do that in a fairly tight
time line. But my understanding is that the Government is reviewing that in the
context of the capital initiatives over the next number of years. So we are
waiting further decision on that one. I will certainly, and I have committed in
the past, but when the final decisions are made in terms of the composition and
scheduling for the consultation process, I will let the member know, because I
know he has been keeping close to this issue and facilitating a best foot
forward from
* (15:10)
Mr. Faurschou: I will forward my question to the Government Services Minister Ron Lemieux. In light of the changes in the federal legislation, the Youth Criminal Justice Act, that has resulted in significantly reduced numbers of individuals put into custody within Youth Corrections in the province, which has led to reduction in staffing at the Agassiz Youth Centre located in Portage la Prairie, I am wondering if the minister is projecting an ultimate closure of that facility, or whether there is going to be further redevelopment, or redeployment, of the facilities that are now at approximately 50 percent of capacity of that facility.
Mr. Mackintosh: You know units have closed at
Mr. Faurschou: I know that the two facilities in
I do, though, want to ask
the minister if he is aware of a recent meeting in
I know that it is within the guise of the judicial system as to what penalties are imposed when individuals are convicted of crimes. But the situation that involves conditional sentencing and has seen very little, only about 10 percent of the charges in that category of punishment, exhibit some portion of community service.
I would like to reinforce my community's sentiments to the minister here today, that there is a significant call and expectation from the public that a greater percentage of those receiving conditional or probation emanating from their conviction be spent in community service and thereby returning to the public some restitution.
Mr. Mackintosh: Just on the first issue: the more efficient initiatives with regard to laundry and food in Portage, I think, is an example of how we can always continue to find better ways of doing things. I remember the issue coming into the papers because of a member opposite raising concerns about it. Which perhaps the member will talk to his colleague and perhaps bring her around in terms of the thinking that is necessary in order to, in a cost-effective way, make sure that Justice dollars go to public safety and not duplicating laundry services, for example. But I thank the member, because he knows, locally, that that is a better way to do things.
What we call community
justice in
I think that if there is
anything that the member can suggest in terms of how we can better support
community justice in
So that is something that
I know the committee will be approached on more formally, but I just urge the
member to continue to support that initiative in
In terms of court sentences, it is my understanding that the member has had discussions with representatives of the department about his concerns. I think it is often not known the kind of consequences that come to bear, the community service that is required of offenders. I am one of the view that I think that there is a greater role for being sentenced to service. It does require supervision. It does require the community groups, though, to make that effort to supervise, sometimes, people who may not be that easy to supervise
There is a challenge, but I am certainly looking at ways that we can perhaps over this mandate make greater use of those who are sentenced and provide restitution, at least to the community at large, if not to the victim of that particular offence.
I think the department is
concerned about the perception and is looking at ways that there can be more
emphasis on what is being done because I know we have a very strong prosecution
team in
We also recognize that
there are social issues in
* (15:20)
Mr. Faurschou: Mr. Chairperson, I appreciate the minister's response. I want though
to inform the minister, if he already has not been informed of it, is that the
good work of former Mayor Carlson spawned
an opening of the crime prevention office in
The funding for that has since lapsed and the city officials rightly or wrongly with the lapsing of the provincial support have announced closure of that facility. That facility also was a venue for the community justice committee in which to operate.
It is something that will
not be available for that function, as well as the co-ordinator of crime
prevention programming will cease to be in
Whether that is a right decision or not, I will leave that with the elected officials in which to decide but certainly the lapsing of provincial support for this particular entity was the consideration that ultimately led to its pending closure.
So, I ask the minister whether there is any consideration, he recognizes good work that is being done out of that office, as to whether or not any further support from the Province could be considered.
Mr. Mackintosh: I recall being advised of this initiative some time ago and as I recall, the provincial government or Justice Department monies that flowed to Portage la Prairie for the crime prevention office was an initiative of the former administration with a view to funding it for a while to get it started and then expecting that it would be self‑sustaining by way of contributions from the community, or the municipal government or governments.
I generally support that approach for community-based initiatives because a pilot can sometimes demonstrate to a community the value of an initiative such that there is then reprioritizing of local resources to sustain it.
We saw a recent
initiative like this in Selkirk where for three years the Justice Department
helped to fund an anti-graffiti initiative that was also partnered in by local
business groups and the City of
Just this year, in fact
this week, the city and its new Crime Prevention Council took over the
anti-graffiti imitative so there was the model in action. It demonstrated to
the City of
It is unfortunate that
the Crime Prevention Office is closing. I think even those involved in the
decision view it as unfortunate. There was a difficult balancing of priorities.
I have had communications with Mayor MacKenzie on this. At the same time, I know that the department is willing
and able and in fact has been working with the city to see how we can assist in
ensuring a more co-ordinated approach, at least a co-ordinated approach being
maintained in some fashion in
The support for the youth justice committee is very important and housing for that, and I note the probation staff will be part of any solution there. The department will continue to work with the member or representatives of the community and do what we can recognizing that we cannot go back to just funding again because that was a deal, but we are not going to walk away either.
Mr. Faurschou: I appreciate the minister's understanding. It is balancing that
city council has to try and do in regard to scarce resources and the call from
the policing-sector that states that the number of case files that each police
officer is charged with in
This concerns not only me
but all persons in
I leave that for the
information of the minister. I have in the past requested consideration similar
to that of
In closing, I know the honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Hawranik) would like to continue with his line of questioning but, returning back to the women's correctional facility, dialogue had been initiated by the Province with the federal government in regard to a combined corrections facility offering the federal government a penitentiary component within the redevelopment of a provincial facility. I am wondering whether that is still ongoing or if there has been progress in that nature?
* (15:30)
Mr. Mackintosh: The discussions with the federal government have, in my view,
actually slowed a bit in this process and, although that is behind now, we did
have discussions both at the political level with the Solicitor General and at
the staff level. It is my understanding, my recollection, that there is an
interest, certainly, in the federal government partnering with the Province on
a facility so that women do not have to travel to
What the arrangement will
end up looking like will depend on a number of factors. I think that the
federal government certainly will be interested to know of the location, when
that is decided, whether it is in
What we do have is an expression of interest and I think that is very important. We will keep members apprised as to progress in that regard.
Mr. Faurschou: I just want to leave with the minister today a note of appreciation
for an opportunity to speak with Probationary Services and to fully
understand, as the elected official from
I do, though, want to
leave with the minister that there are significant challenges in other
departments in and about
I speak perhaps of
Conservation and Water Stewardship. Always projects, whether it is picking up
debris in the floodway channel of the
These are projects that are and could be very much considered by the public as enhancements to the community, recognizing the persons that have done the crime should indeed do the time and return something to the community, in light of their actions and activities within that community.
I leave that with the
minister to initiate discussions with his colleagues around the Cabinet table
that, without question, this is what not only the community of
Mr. Chairperson: Questions?
Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Chairperson, I have another question with respect to Driskell. I turn to a report in the Winnipeg Sun on December 3, where the Premier (Mr. Doer) stated that he would call an inquiry, an independent public inquiry if he is not satisfied with the results of the ongoing federal review of the Driskell case and I am wondering whether the minister can advise whether he supports that statement.
Mr. Mackintosh: There is the ongoing provincially-mandated review by former Judge
John Enns. There is of course the key outside review, which is the federal
government's 696 review. That may result in either appeal court decisions or
recommendations or a new trial in the Court of Queen's Bench of
Whether there are any other proceedings, I am not aware of at this time but some may unfold, whether civil or other, but if there remain outstanding questions that affect confidence, that should be addressed. Otherwise then there is the public inquiry answer. So, yes, of course.
Mr. Hawranik: In response to my previous question, the minister had mentioned that Judge Enns was doing a review and there are two parts to it. The second part, of course, he says has not been completed as yet but the first part has. Is the Justice Minister in possession of that first part of his review and, if so, can he provide me with a copy?
Mr. Mackintosh: Yes. I think it would be very important for the member to get that first phase report. The first phase deals with police disclosure to the Crown, deals with issues that the member has been raising in Question Period about court backlogs and the role that police disclosure plays in that as one reason for delay and also deals with a review of the current Crown policy on disclosure that came from the recommendations of former Justice Cory in the Sophonow matter.
The conclusion of Judge Enns was that the provincial policy on disclosure was strong and made no recommendations for further improvement, but there are other challenges that are noted in the report and the department has responded. For example, a police disclosure working group has been put together to deal with this ongoing issue of current-day police disclosure.
The review also found that there were nine matters that had not been disclosed by Winnipeg police to the Crown, although he found that substantially, largely, there was good disclosure, and of course, there have been a lot of recording and observations on that but I can undertake to provide the member with that report.
There was another, I think, very important outcome from that review on the issue of police disclosure. Coincidentally, just weeks before we received the report from Judge Enns, the federal government had announced for the first time a comprehensive review of Crown disclosure policies with a view to changing the Criminal Code to better facilitate and deal with some of the modern day problems of Crown disclosure, for example, electronic disclosure, large numbers of materials, those kinds of issues.
The federal government asked for the input of the provinces on an expeditious basis to get legislation rolling, to tune up the Criminal Code in this regard. I found it rather disappointing that there would be this interest in Crown disclosure and none in police disclosure so we wrote to the federal government and publicly urged that the terms of reference of this review be expanded to include police disclosure because, as I said the other day, quality of Crown disclosure is dependent on the quality of police disclosure, and so is its timeliness. We offered in, a constructive way, to be part of that process and provide our advice and considered views.
Mr. Hawranik: With respect to the Driskell case, legal aid at one point in that investigation decided to renege on a verbal agreement with Driskell's lawyers and cut him off any government funds with respect to legal aid funding for the defence. The minister argued consistently during that period of time. I remember him arguing that it would be inappropriate for him to interfere in the case because there has to be a separation between political and the prosecution levels of the department. There are instances where the minister has interfered and should interfere because there are instances when the administration of justice is really called into disrepute. When the Justice Minister has an obligation to become involved as he did in the case of the Thomas Sophonow case, I ask the minister: Why did you not become involved in the Driskell case with respect to the legal aid decision?
* (15:40)
Mr. Mackintosh: First of all, the Court of Queen's Bench in
Having said that, I think the member is looking at a Free Press story about a legal aid issue with regard to Driskell. It is my understanding that that information may well not be accurate. I believe I was advised at the time that there may have been some dispute on some disbursements between legal aid and someone. As I recall, I think there was some inaccuracy in that matter.
Mr. Daryl Reid, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair
Mr. Hawranik: In 2003, in
Mr. Mackintosh: That question really involves a consideration of the federal law and
the federal enforcement. As the member knows, the drug enforcement in
Mr. Chairperson in the Chair
The current sentencing
patterns in
Mr. Hawranik: I would like to leave the balance of my questions, I think, for concurrence and at this time I would like to proceed on a section-by-section analysis of the Budget.
Mr. Chairperson: Bypassing the Minister's Salary, we start with 4.2.
Resolution 4.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $97,830,600 for Justice, Criminal Justice, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005.
Resolution agreed to.
Resolution 4.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $24,609,800 for Justice, Civil Justice, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005.
Resolution agreed to.
Resolution 4.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $95,279,800 for Justice, Corrections, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005.
Resolution agreed to.
Resolution 4.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $40,235,200 for Justice, Courts, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005.
Resolution agreed to.
Resolution 4.6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1,426,500 for Justice, Costs Related to Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005.
Resolution agreed to.
Resolution 4.1, that would be the Minister's Salary, the last item that we have to consider. At this point, we request that the minister's staff please leave the table for the consideration of this item.
The table is now open for questions on Minister's Salary. Any movement here?
Resolution 4.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $5,451,800 for Justice, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005.
Resolution agreed to.
That concludes the
Estimates for this department. The next set of Estimates that will be
considered in this section will be the Department of Industry, Economic
Development and Mines.
Do we need a recess or shall we continue? Continue.
INDUSTRY,
ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND MINES
* (15:50)
Mr. Chairperson (Conrad
Hon. Scott Smith (Minister of Industry, Economic Development and Mines): Mr. Chair, I do have an opening statement. It would be a pleasure to present it here today. On behalf of the Department of Industry, Economic Development and Mines, I am pleased to provide some opening remarks.
Over the course of the past year, the department has undergone some significant restructuring. With the addition of the responsibilities for Manitoba Emergency Measures Organization and the transfer of the Manitoba Trade Development function and the Ottawa office to Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade, as well responsibility for the Horse Racing Commission was transferred to Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives.
With regard to the
economy in 2003, while we were well familiar with the challenges of BSE, SARS
and the forest fires presented to the
In 2003,
Almost all industries
posted real growth last year and despite the sharp increase in the value of the
Canadian dollar, manufacturing firms in
From 2000 until 2003, Manitoba's
employment increased on average by 6500 jobs per year, more than double the
average of the previous decade. Of these, 5100 were full-time jobs. The
unemployment rate in 2003 was 5 percent, the lowest in
Our population grew
overall by 7584 people from 2002.
The Manitoba Provincial
Nominee Program consisted of about
48 percent of all immigration in our province in 2003, and I am delighted to
point out that our department's business component of the program has
contributed significantly towards the economic and demographic growth to
By the end of 2003, 1151
prospective business investors had come on exploratory visits to the
Prospects for the overall economy in 2004 are
also very good.
In terms of the new
investments, my department is budgeting $400,000 this year to support the
establishment of the composite innovation centre known as CIC in
The advanced technologies
developed by the centre will enhance the competitiveness of
New, high-quality jobs
will be created for
Most recently, we welcome
the news that Winpak, a Winnipeg-based leader in packaging technology, has
committed to spend about $50 million
And the good economic
news is not limited to the city of
My department is also pleased to announce the Manitoba Film and Video Production tax credit is being extended for another three years. Several measures will enhance the tax credit including a frequent filming initiative and to encourage film activity outside the city of Winnipeg. A rural and northern incentive will be created and is being created.
An important aspect of
the department's operations in small business development is our focus on the
small business development in all of Manitoba. The Canada-Manitoba Business
Service Centre, a federal and
provincial partnership, has recently completed its sixth year of successful
operation and continues to extend the delivery of its services with 24
satellite offices throughout the province. Over the past year, the centre
registered over 50 000 client interactions and 9 million hits on the centre's Web site.
The
centre continues to be a leading example of multi-channel service delivery and
government on-line, offering extensive, on-line information, live-connection
technology, and various on-line interactive products.
The
Small Business Development Centre branch
also provides business development services for Aboriginal entrepreneurs, women
business owners, youth, entrepreneurs in the cultural industries, and
entrepreneurs with disabilities, as well as French language services in several
offices in southern
This
past year, my department, in partnership with the federal and provincial
departments, launched the first uniquely
* (16:00)
In
terms of mineral resources, with regard to the mining and mineral sector, a
remarkable recovery in prices for base metals and gold in the latter part of
2003 bodes well for 2004. Since last April, the price of gold has increased by
approximately 24 percent. Copper and nickel have almost doubled in price and
zinc is up 30 to 40 percent. This has resulted in improved profitability of the
base metal sector with mining tax revenue expected to more than triple in 2004.
Mining
fosters new opportunities for economic development in communities right across
the North. In support, mineral exploration and new mine development through the
work of the geological survey and through investment incentive programs such as
the Mineral Exploration Assistance Program, MEAP, Prospectors Assistance
Program, and the Manitoba Mineral
Exploration Tax Credit, which have been extended for another year.
The
Exploration Tax Credit is targeted
to encourage
Investment
in gold exploration in
Diamond
exploration continues to hold promise in
In
2003,
We
are also working successfully with the federal Department of Fisheries and
Oceans to develop best practices for mineral exploration. We are continuing to
work directly with companies to assist with the impacts of mine closure as well
as to build capacity with the Aboriginal and northern communities to more fully
participate in mineral exploration.
Following
on the success of our pilot prospector training program last June, we were
working with
In
the petroleum sector last year, it was another busy year in
Last year saw a
resurgence in the exploration of drilling in the province. Mr. Chair, 25 of the
94 wells drilled were exploratory wells. New oil discoveries were made in the
Sinclair, Goodlands,
The Manitoba Emergency Measures Organization part of the department is a new addition to the department, moving from Transportation and Government Services at the time of the last Cabinet reorganization. Manitoba EMO, which we are all proud of, is a provincial government agency responsible for the co-ordination of the emergency management and is committed to continuous improvements in all aspects of the emergency management in our province. A comprehensive approach to emergency management requires attention to the mitigation, preparedness, response and recovery. The result is a strong system for public safety in our communities which is among the highest priorities of this Government and any government.
Some of
The post 9-11 security environment requires flexibility and diligence to ensure our communities are protected from emerging threats. This has required an expanded focus by all parts of the provincial government in responding to these new realties. A growing part of Manitoba EMO's work has been focussed on ensuring a co-ordinated approach to these new threats and hazards. This work is being advanced through the activities of the security subcommittee of Cabinet and the all-party task force on security.
I would like to draw
attention to the co-operative work with municipalities that has occurred over
the last year to help improve their emergency planning. Amendments to The
Security Management Act, which was passed in 2002, created enhanced requirements
for municipal emergency plans. Manitoba EMO has worked closely with the
Association of Manitoba Municipalities in developing guidelines and standards
to provide technical assistance to municipalities as they complete this work.
It is an important initiative and when completed will result in a level of
municipal emergency planning that is second to no other province in
I would like to thank the AMM and all the municipalities for their co-operation in this work. It is an excellent example of how different levels of government can work together to achieve a shared and progressive goal.
Mr. Chair, just in closing, I would like to thank the senior management and staff for their support and continued commitment to the work of the department and would welcome any questions as we go ahead in our deliberations.
Mr. Chairperson: We thank the honourable minister for those comments.
Does the official opposition critic have any opening comments to make?
Mr. Ralph Eichler (
I would like to thank the minister for his comments and to just share with him that this is my second go at Industry and Mines and I am looking forward to trying to get some things on the record.
On behalf of the people
of
Mr. Chairperson: Before we do that, under
At this time, we would like to invite the minister's staff to join us at the table. We ask that the minister also introduce the staff in attendance. I would like to ask the question. Does the committee wish to proceed through these Estimates in a global manner or in an item-by-item chronological manner? Which is the preference?
Mr. Eichler: Global, please.
* (16:10)
Mr. Chairperson: Global. How about the minister's preference?
Mr. Smith: Global is fine. I would like to introduce the staff. We have Hugh Eliasson, the Deputy Minister that is here with us today; Christine Kaszycki, the Assistant Deputy Minister of Mineral Resources. We have Jim Kilgour, Director of Financial Services, and Craig Halwachs, Director of Finance and Administration.
Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. Global is agreed. The floor is now open for questions.
Mr. Eichler: Maybe we could start right off the bat with the mining tax. We went from $17 million in revenue last year to $57,230,000 for the Estimates for '04-05. In your opening remarks you remarked on the minerals being a good year and the price was there.
Could you provide me with a breakdown and is the tax rate the same as it was in '03-04 and for '04-05 is the rate the same and is there a breakdown?
Mr. Smith: The rate has not changed year over year. It is, you are right, an increase in value in the industry. We do not have a breakdown specifically sector to sector but it is an increase in both volume and in value.
Mr. Eichler: Is this mainly due to the U.S. dollar change? Is this why the increase in resources?
Mr. Smith: It would be more specific to the value increase in commodities as opposed to the U.S. dollar.
Mr. Eichler: Before we leave that category, how did the department get these numbers? Was it based on last year or is it a forecast? How accurate are they going to be a year from now?
Mr. Smith: The Department of Finance consults with the industries and gets the forecasts from the industries and bases the taxation on the numbers provided by the industry.
Mr. Eichler: Then, starting on page 17 of the Administration, under Managerial, for 117,000 is that Hugh, that individual?
Mr. Smith: That is the administration of Hugh.
Mr. Eichler: I am sure he is worth every penny. I would like to turn to Industry Consulting and Marketing Support. I notice we are having one person less there, from 10 to 9. Is that position being terminated, or is that not going to be re-tendered, or what?
Mr. Smith: I think if the member looks, the elimination actually is one vacant position, but it is elimination from 11 positions to 10.
Mr. Eichler: The new CIC program, your centre that you are talking about here, where will that be located? Is that a tendered process for that initiative?
Mr. Smith: That initiative is a private-sector initiative. The location is at
the
Mr. Eichler: The $400,000 that is planned to be spent there, what is the number of staff that is budgeted for that initiative?
Mr. Smith: The initiative is at its infancy, at its very early stage. The staffing is one person. They are seeking support from the federal government and other sectors, but right now the initiative is one full-time staff position.
Mr. Eichler: So is there going to be some capital cost involved here, and how much?
Mr. Smith: With the one person that they have on staff, they are developing an initiative to look generally at basic needs on a structured basis, going ahead. Their overall capital expenditures are yet to be identified. I guess, like a lot of other things, there may be a wish list of large expansion but, doable pieces, one step at a time is what is being developed right now.
Mr. Eichler: So the main purpose of this composite centre, what is the main purpose of it?'
Mr. Smith: It is generally a commercial composite development that will be able
to be used in commercial industry applications throughout
The future in aviation and in many of the other industries is certainly on the technical development of the research and development of a lot of these products. The energy industry, for example, possibilities could be Manitoba Hydro, could be many of the others, where we now use a lot of base metal and metal connectors where you can have high-strength, lightweight products that are out there with durability. They are being developed in some sectors and the application will be made through this initiative to look at applications of what the potential possibility could be out there for some of the larger industries and small ones as well.
Mr. Eichler: Will there be a fee for services then for this type of a service for perhaps Manitoba Hydro or aerospace industries? Will there be a cost for fee services passed on to them?
Mr. Smith: There will be a number of industry participants in the initiative. They will pay part of the costs of the initiative involving, I guess, the amount of usage or application that they are considering in the project. The amount of interest out there with the large industries as well as the industries and Hydro, as I mentioned, and some of the others will be looking at funding for this project.
Obviously, the airline industry and many others will certainly benefit significantly from this. We have had many discussions with industries of many, many types. As in any initial stage, people are looking at what is affordable for their particular industry on a go-ahead basis, but there are a number that will be charged for usage of the facility.
* (16:20)
Mr. Eichler: Thank you for that. Is there a budgeted amount of revenue that you show in your budget for that revenue?
Mr. Smith: This, basically the $400,000, is financial support to the private sector. It shows a small percentage of their budget that comes out of ours. Obviously, it is a budget developed and will be created by the private sector.
Mr. Eichler: It is kind of exciting to see your government taking the initiative
to try and help bring new business to
Mr. Smith: No, obviously, the application could be multiple in many, many different industries. Some of the key industries that will be part of this project, certainly up front, will see the benefits from it but there will not be any priority to any one sector, any one business. Obviously the development of these products could affect all businesses large and small.
I think when we consider some of the pressures that we have seen over the last number of years, I know the member and myself have talked about this in some detail, where we are seeing some of the outsourcing of jobs both from America and from Canada to a growing factor in another hemisphere, quite frankly in Asia and China.
We are seeing industry becoming very concerned with having a product, which we do now, which are good products, but how we can make those products better and have research and development put into industries where we can have products that are in development in other nations at the time.
So I think the outsourcing
of jobs has been quite obvious in
I think this is critical. The member opposite is quite right. This is something that is critically important to our industries, to our manufacturing sector and to the development of new products going ahead and competing on what we truly see now in even the smallest of businesses in our neighbourhoods as a worldwide competition of products and materials that are out there.
We have an advantage here
where we have some of the best aeronautical industry engineers and intellectual
minds here right in the
Mr. Eichler: Just to follow up a little bit on this before we do leave it, Mr. Chairman, once these products are established, the next thing, of course, is to get them into the marketplace. Is there through this particular part of your department, or is that in another department whereby we would take this next step to getting it into the marketplace? Where is the minister going with this?
Mr. Smith: Obviously, the initiative is by the private sector. It would be responsible generally for the marketing of the products as they are developed. We do have trade initiatives that we do support businesses in different forms, but generally it is market driven.
It would be a lot of the marketing done through each industry as they develop the products and look for applications of the products as they are developed as well. The initiative is probably best driven by the private sector for those type of meaningful applications.
Mr. Eichler: I had an opportunity to be a bit of a pioneer in this particular field in the livestock business and I had several products I took to the market and one of them darn near broke me but a heck of a product. We spent about $160,000 in the development of it. We did not have this initiative that you brought forward.
I would have liked to have had it at that point, but once I got the product up and running, the other criteria that we had was to get it into the marketplace and that cost me about another quarter of a million dollars.
Sometimes it is nice to have a friend in your back door, and I do appreciate the work that Trade did do for me and help me get through to these other countries to market my particular product, but sometimes, I do not think we go quite far enough in helping young businesspeople trying to put their products forward.
I think it is something the minister should take into account, maybe through BDC or through Western Diversification, I am not really sure where we would go with it, but I do know from personal experience it is quite intensive.
Mr. Smith: The member, and I have heard this story a number of times since I
have been in his story as well, where you have got entrepreneurs in the
That is a risk and, quite frankly, the advantage, I think, we have with small entrepreneurs is that they do take that risk, take that chance, and have enough confidence in themselves to put, in many cases, everything that they own on the line to follow along on something they believe to be viable.
Certainly, the cluster of the development of the centre, with the people working together and the sharing of information lines and with the research and development dollars, will assist many of those young and older entrepreneurs that are out there that do want to have those products taken to market.
I believe it is best done and best driven by those entrepreneurs that do know the business and industry and take those chances, but certainly through some of the business development assistance that we have in the branch with some of the young or start-up businesses that are out there, there are options of assistance that are there.
We get, as I mentioned in some of my opening statements, some of the 9 million hits that we had for our department, some of the 50 000 different calls we received throughout the year with the joint venture that we have with the federal and provincial governments together sharing that information.
Certainly, I take the comments of the member opposite to heart. I think any suggestion that we can have by folks that are out there that can see an area of where we can help or assist in some ways would be well-received by this department.
Mr. Eichler: Small business, in fact, is the backbone of our province here. We like to see it grow as much as the Government does. I guess the other thing that I ran into on a personal level was, and I am sure I am not alone in this, was the fact that with patents. I am wondering if there is some way that your department, or maybe we can look at something jointly as far as protection. You talk about the big companies, the big corporations that come around, and with small business, they sometimes have a tendency to get run over. I was wondering if the department or through industry, whether or not they are looking at some way to help develop some type of low-budget protection for new inventors.
Mr. Smith: I know the department, on a number of cases and obviously throughout the years, in consultation and with the federal government and agencies, works with folks that do seek information on patents, but there is no other way, other than having patent protection. Certainly, at this time, we will work and try to direct people in any way that we can to the proper authorities and work with them on how to develop and have patent protection.
* (16:30)
Mr. Eichler: Could we move then to the Business Start Program with the start-up business loan of $10,000. How successful was this program over the past year? Could you tell me how many businesses took advantage of that?
Mr. Smith: We do have some numbers, if you will bear with me, to assist new, small businesses with established, long-term relationships financially. To date the program has been very successful and resulted in the start of 860 new businesses and creating over 2200 new, full-time jobs. It has also provided business planning and training workshops to approximately 800 to 900 participants per year. From the commencement of the program, over 5000 participants have attended the business planning workshops, and the five-year benefit cost ratio has been approximately seven to one.
It is anticipated that approximately 1000 participants will be attending the business planning workshops in '04-05, which will be slightly up and includes workshops to be conducted in northern as well as many rural areas in the province.
For the year ended March
31 of this year, 2004, the branch has delivered 33 sets of workshops to 856
participants, including 12 sets of workshops in rural and northern
Mr. Eichler: Very impressive numbers. How does that compare to '02-03? Without going to a lot of work, does the minister happen to have a ballpark idea of whether we are up or down from previous years?
Mr. Smith: Over '02-03, it is up a little bit.
Mr. Eichler: Before we do leave that, are there any concerns, or is it too soon to realize there are some losses that will be written off there out of the loan guarantees?
Mr. Smith: Built into the loans is a loan loss ratio of about 25 percent. The losses, and they do vary year to year, have been less than what we have put in for the loan loss ratio, so on a ballpark figure, it has been quite good, quite successful on some of the high risk new businesses that are out there. So the loan loss ratio has more than covered what the actuals have been on the loss ratio. It has not exceeded 25 percent for the ratio we have put out.
Mr. Eichler: Just for information, what is the interest rate charged to these young businesspeople, or whether they are young or old, what is the rate of interest charged to the start-up business program?
Mr. Smith: The guarantee is with a particular institution or the bank and that is negotiated with the bank.
Mr. Eichler: Moving to the Manitoba Film Loan Guarantee Program, an industry that definitely has taken
off big in
Mr. Smith: This program, the Film Loan Guarantee is a brand-new program, so it
is just a start-up for this year. Some of the other programs that have been in
place certainly have been quite successful in the film industry, but the Film
Loan Guarantee Program for the
province does guarantee a maximum of 20 percent of the loan in respect to
So it is in the first year, it is too early, obviously no completed films at this point, but I guess, year-over-year, at this time next year we may have a couple numbers for the member.
Mr. Eichler: Then how many Manitoba Film Loan guarantees have you given out? Is there a number? Is there one or two or ten?
Mr. Smith: Under this particular program, it is estimated, it is early, but it is estimated to be approximately five or six guarantees that will be initiated this year.
Mr. Eichler: Do you have a budgeted number, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Smith: If we went to per loan, it will be $200,000. Obviously, if it is five or six you can times it by that number. Loan-loss provision will be 20 percent, which will be $40,000 on a $200,000 maximum loan, and then $8,000 of that will be for legal fees. So it will be $200,000, loan-loss provision of $40,000, provision for legal fees, $8,000.
* (16:40)
Mr. Eichler: On the consulting services and counselling services, I note that
you had 6500 clients you assisted throughout
Mr. Smith: The staffed offices of the 24 are
A lot of it is done
through linkages by satellite into the offices. The satellite offices also
focus on Aboriginal business in some of the northern areas. On the regional
satellites, they are in
Mr. Eichler: Could the minister tell us if he is planning on shutting any of these down, or do they plan on keeping the same number this year, or will there be an increase or decrease?
Mr. Smith: We certainly are not looking at shutting any of them down. It is very, very successful. We have heard a lot of accolades back on the program. Obviously it is something we do want to maintain and keep and certainly there will not be any less this year than there was last year.
Mr. Eichler: It is encouraging to hear that. It is a very successful program. I know of several people that have taken advantage of it. I encourage the minister to go ahead and keep as many open as possible. As long as they are serving a good need then definitely they warrant staying open.
Moving on to Business Immigration and Investment, I have a few questions there, Mr. Chairman. The minister in his opening comments said there were 41 new immigrants under their Immigrant Investor Program and they created a number of new jobs last year. Were there any of these immigrants that left and never got their money back, or are there any failures that he would like to talk about?
Mr. Smith: Out of all the ones mentioned last year there was only one that did
not settle in
Mr. Eichler: I did notice that you had budgeted for one less staffperson in that area. Is this position terminated, or just not a rehiring of an individual?
Mr. Smith: I guess that this is just a transfer over to the Manitoba Trade and Investment Corporation as opposed to a loss of the person, just a transfer of duties over to MTIC.
Mr. Eichler: In the operating revenue you made note that there was a decrease of $75,000 there in interest that was being generated from deposits in the Provincial Nominee Program. How much money is there in the program now that is being held?
Mr. Smith: The amount of dollars that are being held in the program right now are $17.9 million.
Mr. Eichler: Could the minister outline for me, I know I have had one complaint on this particular program where they had been here for I believe it was two years, I will check my notes, but it does not really matter, how long normally the money is held by the Government before they get the money back?
Mr. Smith: The monies are held for a period of two years until they have successfully purchased a business, or are in the process of purchasing the business and can verify that.
Mr. Eichler: What is the procedure for a participant to apply for his money back and how long does it take him once application has been made?
Mr. Smith: As I mentioned before, once they have successfully verified the fact that they have purchased a business and provided information of that, the money is refunded in most all cases very quickly.
Mr. Eichler: Under what circumstances would the money be held and not paid back to the nominee?
Mr. Smith: If in fact they fail to establish in
Mr. Eichler: I guess after 9-11 last year, we have to be very careful with our immigration process. Of course we all want to see our economy grow. What checks and balances do we have in the province of Manitoba to try and make sure that we are definitely allowing the right business clientele to come to Manitoba and establish business within the province? Can the minister elaborate on that for me.
Mr. Smith: Obviously, after they have provided the information, a background check does need to be researched and considered by the Government of Canada and information provided to the Government of Canada that fulfils that need.
* (16:50)
Mr. Eichler: The process is handled by
the Government of Canada then, rather than the
Mr. Smith: The process is the Government of
Mr. Eichler: I guess the next thing I have on this is there a minimum amount, is that the same amount as it was last year? How much was it for each individual provincial nominee?
Mr. Smith: The minimums are a minimum net worth of $250,000 and an investment of $150,000.
Mr. Eichler: Before we leave this department, is there a limited number of family
members under the nominee program that an individual for the $400,000 is
allowed to bring with him into the
Ms. Theresa Oswald, Acting
Chairperson, in the Chair
Mr. Smith: There is not a minimum. They can bring their spouse and their dependent children to whatever that number would be.
Mr. Eichler: The children then would be those under 18 years of age?
Mr. Smith: Yes, it is not up to 18 years old, it has to be a dependent child of the person.
Mr. Eichler: If a father-son wants to come over, does their combined investment $400,000, say the son is 40 and the father is 60, can they both bring their families in as one provincial program, or is that considered two then?
Mr. Smith: In a hypothetical case like that it would not be, the son being 40, with the family, would probably not be a dependent of the 60-year-old person. It would be two separate applications.
Mr. Eichler: I can see that. I did know of one particular family that was talking
about moving in to
Mr. Smith: The son in this case may apply under separate a category as a skilled individual, as opposed to under the business category side of it. So there would be an application on that side that would be potentially possible in that particular case.
Mr. Eichler: The program, is it intended to, or could the minister clarify for me the immigration process. Do they stay, then, as immigrants, or do they become Canadian citizens? What percentage is that, Madam Acting Chair?
Mr. Smith: The process is that they have to become Canadian citizens. No length of time, but immediately, in most cases.
Mr. Eichler: I do not know if I messed up on it last time during Estimates, but $75,000 is an awful lot of interest. Does the minister or his staff have figures from '01-02? Was there interest credited at that point, or is this a new line in the budget that you picked up with the $75,000?
Mr. Smith: Just for clarification, the member has a specific line. What it is is, each individual, it is a $75,000 deposit. On the interest, there is not a line that actually shows the interest that I know of.
On the previous question, when people do come they get an unconditional Permanent Resident visa once they establish and set up their business here. But, just for clarification, I will have a look just to verify. There is no line for interest.
Mr. Eichler: I am a bit confused, then. Maybe we will have to go back to that. It says, "the net decrease due to $75,000 operating reduction to be offset by interest revenue generated on deposits." My understanding, Madam Acting Chair, is that there was $17.9 million that we were receiving interest on, so am I wrong in assuming that that was $75,000 in interest revenue?
Mr. Smith: The $17.9 million, the interest from it in the Manitoba Trading Corporation, the $75,000 is part of the monies in the interest that is offset from the interest costs.
Mr. Eichler: Then I guess that leads to my next question. Then what is the total interest revenue from the 17.9 million?
Mr. Smith: The dollars are in the Manitoba Trade and Investment Corporation. It will be filed by September 30. It is a corporation so it is filed in the annual report under the Manitoba Trade and Investment Corporation.
Mr. Eichler: Does the minister or his staff happen to know what the interest generated off that 17.9 million was last year?
Mr. Smith: As the investments increase, obviously the dollar year-over-year will increase. The investments are up so the dollar increase very likely will be an increase and be up.
Mr. Chairperson in the Chair
Mr. Eichler: I guess before we leave this, I would like a little bit more clarification, and I will look forward to getting that report when September comes. Then under the Nominee Program, do the nominees then get interest on that money?
* (17:00)
Mr. Smith: They do not receive interest on the dollars. They get the investment back.
Mr. Eichler: Then the gain on the investment, that stays with your department or does it go into general revenue?
Mr. Smith: That money stays with the Manitoba Trade and Investment Corporation and pays for the administration of that program.
Mr. Eichler: The amount of money then that is surplus, how much money is that at this point in time then?
Mr. Smith: The surplus would be shown in the Manitoba Trade and Investment Corporation annual report when it comes out in September.
Mr. Eichler: Could you tell me what it was last year then?
Mr. Smith: We do not have the number of last year's dollars but we would certainly get that information when we get back to the office and get it to the honourable member.
Mr. Eichler: Thank you for that. It was definitely a well worth program, there is no doubt about that and would like to see it continue to grow, 41 new companies and I think you said there was over 800 new jobs as a result of that within the province of Manitoba, obviously mostly small business, but small business is definitely, as I said earlier, a program that I am in full support of and would like to see the minister encourage it, as easy as possible.
I would like to move to mineral resources then and look at some of the areas there. I did happen to notice that Professional/Technical support has been reduced by three positions. Could the minister elaborate on that?
Mr. Smith: That is vacant positions that just have not been filled.
Mr. Eichler: The tender process then, those will be posted and filled within the next six months, type of thing.
Mr. Smith: No, those positions have now been eliminated.
Mr. Eichler: Were they posted, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Smith: Those positions have been vacant in some cases for a couple of years.
Mr. Eichler: I had asked whether they were posted or not.
Mr. Smith: For those positions, the intent was not to fill them, so they were not posted.
Mr. Eichler: Under the Mines department, we are budgeting for an increase of $40-some million and under this particular department you are taking a hit in your other operating of roughly $25,000. Yet you are predicting increases. If your minerals are up that much as far as your sales are concerned, why would you be reducing the operating line?
Mr. Smith: I guess the rationale that could be applied is that it is based on the fluctuation in the commodity price. Obviously, commodity pricing has gone up considerably. We would not do it the other way, if in fact it dropped down to 17,000 on the negative either on the commodity price.
Mr. Eichler: The checks and balances when it comes to the royalties and taxes, what does the minister do to ensure that we are getting our fair share of the revenue? Is there not a process or are there people in place that look after this department?
Mr. Smith: Mr. Chair, the auditing and the reporting process is done through the Department of Finance and as my staff mentions can verify that the Department of Finance has a rigorous process of making sure that they squeeze the dollars that are due out of most corporations.
Mr. Eichler:
Mr. Smith: Obviously, that is something that is being deliberated between the
community of
I know the town believes that the number is a certain number. The mine, on the other side, believes that the value is a little bit overvalued on their assessment. I know through Intergovernmental Affairs and the Municipal Board that they will come to a solution on that in the next near term.
Mr. Eichler: Then, Black Hawk Mining, is
that a
Mr. Smith: I am informed that they still maintain the name of Black Hawk and they do operate out of the
* (17:10)
Mr. Eichler: Could you repeat that? I was saying goodbye.
Mr. Smith: Certainly. I am informed that the company does in fact still operate
under the name of Black Hawk and it
operates out of the
Mr. Eichler: I do have a number of questions, so I will not keep going on this much longer. Are there any checks and balances for a company moving in to, say, the province of Manitoba and, say, somebody wanted to go back in and start a business like this, to protect a town like the size of Lynn Lake where they are so reliant on this one industry? Is there any money that they have to put up, a bond, in case they do not make their obligations?
Mr. Smith: Since 1999, there has been a bond that has to be initiated in case of a closure. It was a change that was brought in and in fact does provide some sense of security to a company now, or to a community.
Mr. Eichler: Could the minister tell us what that amount of bond is, how much is it?
Mr. Smith: It will vary with individual applications. For instance, the smaller mine compared to a larger operation will vary. It will depend on projected remediation that will be required and it can vary greatly from the size of the operation. Security must be posted based on those estimates.
Mr. Eichler: Is this through the securities, or who holds the bond?
Mr. Smith: Yes, security is done through the Mines Branch, posted with the Mines Branch.
Mr. Eichler: Is there money that is being held now by the Mines Branch, and how much in the bonds?
Mr. Smith: I can inform the member that there have been three since 1999. It can be in forms of a letter of credit, cash deposit or a pledge of assets in various forms.
Mr. Eichler: At some point in time I would like to get a copy of those, who they are, if that is possible. It does not need to be today.
I would like to move on due to the time constraints we are under here, Mr. Chairperson, and move to the Premier's Economic Advisory Council. Could the minister tell us who the manager is now of this department?
Mr. Smith: We would be happy, on this previous question, to explain the names of the companies. Obviously, because of regulations, material will have to be taken out. We can do that.
Could he just repeat his question? I apologize, I did not hear it.
Mr. Eichler: I had said, due to the time restraints we are under, I would like to move on to the Premier's Economic Advisory Council. Could you tell me who the manager is of that department now, at the $108,600?
Mr. Smith: The manager of the department is now Pat Britton.
Mr. Eichler: Is that the same individual who was there last year, or is this a new appointment?
Mr. Smith: That is the same individual that was in last year.
Mr. Eichler: So, I believe this is an appointed position? Is that correct, Mr. Chairperson?
Mr. Smith: Yes, the member is right. It is done through Order-In-Council.
Mr. Eichler: And the term for the appointment of this position?
Mr. Smith: The appointment is done on discretion of Cabinet. The term is on discretion of Cabinet.
Mr. Eichler: It does not need to be right now, but how long has the appointment
been appointed for at this particular time?
Mr. Smith: There is no end date on the appointment. It is at the discretion of Cabinet.
Mr. Eichler: This manager, does he come into an office? I notice there is office space that is leased. Is this a day-to-day operation, or is it a monthly meeting, or semi-monthly?
Mr. Smith: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, she is in a leased space at 155
Mr. Eichler: I would like to move now to the Emergency Measures Organization. I understand from the Budget that was presented just recently regarding the allocation of funds for the upcoming year. My understanding is there is only $25,000 that is planned for expenditures for '04-05. Is that right? Am I reading it right?
Mr. Smith: No, I believe the member is referring to the line for the Emergency Expenditure vote. It is $25 million, we have our Chuck Sanderson with us here now, but I believe it is under the Emergency Expenditures, $25 million.
Mr. Eichler: Thank you for that clarification. I also notice that under your Emergency Programs, over the past number of years, you have had, in 2000-2001 you would be right on budget. However, 2001-2002 you had almost $38 million, then 2002-2003, you were again at $34 million and of course last year with the fires and BSE, is this $25 million realistic?
* (17:20)
Mr. Smith: Obviously, it is a budget that takes into account previous
Estimates. Those Estimates are used in all forms of budgeting. The $25 million
we believe is similar to historical and slight increases on historical levels
for emergency services. Last year, something that obviously was not predicted,
one of the largest forest-fire seasons ever in the history of the
Mr. Eichler: I beg to differ with the minister on this. Of course it is his budget and he will have to try and live within it. But looking at the past record, I think it is something that the minister should re-evaluate because fires are something we are going to have every year. It is just one of the things that I feel we need to learn to start budgeting for. I know just north of me we had a drought and we had fires last year. We went and made special warrant for these particular fires. I do not think that the $25 million is realistic when it comes to budgeting for fires and that is just one particular issue.
The other thing is that with the fires that we had last year, not only just in my area but across the province, there is a number of bills that are outstanding. I understand they did meet with the minister, and what percentage of this $93 million is going to be recovered through the municipalities?
Mr. Smith: Just to clarify for the member, the total amount is about 93 million, which is non-recoverable. What I believe the member may be referring to is the policy on water bombers when a municipality calls in a water bomber.
The outstanding on that, my understanding is, it is approximately $53,000 with a few municipalities that are outstanding. The 93 million is non-recoverable. Obviously, it is something that we have certainly been addressing with the federal government.
I think we saw some
movement in B.C. with the fires that they had there. It was a large fire season
there. Recoveries have been successful in some areas, and it is something that
we have promoted with the federal government that we should have the same
treatment as well. This was a historic year for forest fires, and fires in
general, in the
Mr. Eichler: Mr. Chairman, this $53,000 that is outstanding, is the Government going to pursue trying to collect that money or is it going be written off?
Mr. Smith: It is something that we have met with the municipalities a number of times in a few meetings. We are trying to come to a resolve. Obviously, it is a policy that has been in place for a period of time. It is a policy, it is something that municipalities and the Association of Manitoba Municipalities are well aware of. We have been looking through the Department of Labour, trying to address the concerns that the municipalities do have with them and hopefully we can come to an agreement and conclusion on that.
Mr. Eichler: Mr. Chairman, we all know that fire and, of course, any emergency, we all try and pitch in and do all we can when those emergencies occur. When there is a water bomber that needs to be called in or any other disaster, sometimes we just jump at our last resorts and take whatever it means to get that job done. I think that the minister should maybe have a look at trying to assist the municipalities in recovering some of this cost because I know, one particular municipality of Armstrong, I believe that is about half their budget.
Mr. Smith: I appreciate the member's views. It is something that I am aware of through my department that I know is a concern for a couple of municipalities out there. Obviously, it is a cost recovery model. It is not, certainly, by any means a model for a revenue source. In fact, it is handled through the Department of Labour through the Office of the Fire Commissioner, but I am aware of the issue and I have, in fact, spoken with AMM regarding the issue. We have looked at working together on some solutions in that area.
Mr. Eichler: We just have a few minutes left before we come back tomorrow and finish up. Is the beef development fund still part of your portfolio? Is it still in operation?
Mr. Smith: A portion of the beef development fund was positioned in our financial services area.
2
Mr. Eichler: Mr. Chairman, how much money is left in that fund then, or is there a balance?
Mr. Smith: There was about $200,000 allocated to that and slightly over $198,000 utilized.
Mr. Eichler: The processing plant in St. Boniface that we are looking at for the co-op, can the minister elaborate a little bit if the farmers do not meet the criteria is there a plan B for the processing plant if the farmers just cannot seem to raise the money?
Mr. Smith: Obviously, this is an issue that has been driven by David Reykdahl and a number of the folks that have been in it from the start. It is something that is industry-driven or driven by the cattle industry. In fact, we are coming up on the date very shortly. I believe the 20th of this month it has been a year since we have been faced with the problem.
Obviously, they have
recognized certainly the capacity has been limited here in
I know, moving ahead,
that they will be looking at meeting the business plan that they had developed
and created and I believe that they are working very diligently on that.
Obviously, it is something that we are supporting quite substantially with
support from the
They are working diligently. I would say that in fact the success we are all hopeful for, certainly it is driven and been driven by the industry. We are there to support it.
Mr. Chairperson: The hour being 5:30 p.m., I am interrupting the proceedings of the committee. The committee will be recessed until 10 a.m. tomorrow (Friday).