LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Thursday, April 28, 2005

The House met at 10 a.m.

PRAYERS

ORDERS OF THE DAY

PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS

DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS–

PUBLIC BILLS

Bill 201–The Legislative Assembly

Amendment Act

Mr. Speaker: Resume debate on second readings, public bills, Bill 201, The Legislative Assembly Amendment Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Minto (Mr. Swan), who has five minutes remaining, and also standing in the name of the honourable Member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck).

What is the will of the House for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Minto, who has five minutes remaining? [Agreed]

And what is the will of the House for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Pembina? [Agreed]

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, it is indeed a pleasure to rise to speak to Bill 201, The Legislative Assembly Amendment Act, brought forward by our good friend and colleague from Inkster, our new ally in federal politics, the Liberal Party.

As you may have noticed, I wore some red in my tie today, Mr. Speaker, to commemorate this arrangement. What is interesting, of course, is at the federal level our friends from the Conservative Party, they are holding hands with the separatists. I say shame on them. They are joining hands at the federal level.

Mr. Speaker, we have had a chance to debate this bill several times in this House. Members have pointed out the attitude of the Liberal Party when it comes to signing a deal, signing an arrangement related to sittings in this Chamber and then breaking it. You know, that has been pointed out by several members in this Chamber, the Liberal Leader, the Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). They sign an agreement saying we are going to sit X number of days to try to bring some sanity to the operations of this House, and then they break it. Now they bring forward a bill saying they are going to sit for 85 days. Then they talk about one year when the House sat for 35 days. That was, of course, the election year. I know the Liberals would like to forget that election year. We know that they would like to forget 2003, an election that they would like to forget, but we will not forget that.

The Liberal Leader, he is, of course, in the Chamber today, and he would like to forget some of the comments that he has made here during Question Period, I am sure, where he said in the House here that he supports the floodway, for example, and he comes to Selkirk, and he says he is opposed to the floodway, Mr. Speaker. He has to be careful what he says because, as our leader pointed out yesterday in the House, Hansard takes very good notes, and they keep very good records of what we say in this Chamber. Also, someone has mentioned the arena, where he says at one time he is opposed to it. He is in favour of keeping Eaton's, and then he says he is now apparently in favour of the new arena. Apparently, he is there to attend all the gala functions that are held there. So we know where the Liberals are coming from.

Mr. Speaker, the Liberals are as the Member for Inkster. He wants to sit 85 days. It is easy for him, and it is easy for the Liberal Leader because they do not have any MLAs that represent any of the rural or northern communities in this province. I know, as the Whip of our caucus, that I have my colleagues who have needs to attend to constituency events to attend to in their ridings. They have a two-hour or a six-hour or an eight-hour ride home to get back to their ridings, things that the Member for Inkster does not need to be concerned about living where he does, or the Liberal Leader. They do not have the same challenges that my colleagues do who represent the rural and northern areas because they cannot elect a member outside of the city of Winnipeg. They have no members from the North. They have no members from the rural area. They do not understand some of the challenges that our members face.

They say, "Well, let us sit in the House every day." You ask the Member for Inkster, "Well, what is a sitting day?" He says, "Well, if we have a Question Period." What if we have 10 Question Periods in one day? Will that satisfy him? No, he said, "That does not satisfy me." So he continuously changes the rules to suit his own objectives. Plus the House has been sitting on Fridays. No, he does not count that as a sitting day. His point is that he is there to hold the government to account, which is great; that is his job as a member of the opposition.

Well, Friday we were sitting for Estimates. I know I was here, Mr. Speaker. The opposition members were here, and they were asking ministers of the Crown questions. They were holding the government to account, but that is not a sitting day he says.

Last fall we held several standing committees on Hydro, Lotteries, Liquor Control Commission, Manitoba Public Insurance, Workers Compensation, Elections Manitoba, and Public Accounts met several times. All those meetings were held in the fall when the House was not in session, but there were still opportunities for the members of the opposition to hold the government to account. So there is a lot more out there than simply coming in here for Question Period. As the Member for Inkster considers that is the only job that an MLA does is coming here or else, as someone said, holding court at McDonald's, as he often does. That is where he gets his advice from and that is fine. There is more to being an MLA, as, I think, the Member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg) pointed out, than sitting in this Chamber.

We do not want to discount the importance of what we do here certainly, but, Mr. Speaker, we are elected to represent our constituents. We are elected to deal with constituent matters, and we all have to attend to those weekly. Our constituents would like to meet with us in our own communities. The Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) has an eight-hour ride home or a twelve-hour ride home to Lynn Lake. He says it takes twelve hours to get home, and the Member for Inkster, well, he does not have those challenges, living where he does and meeting his constituents at McDonald's.

* (10:10)

I do not want to speak ill of our new-found federal colleagues, but we have to say that I think the Member for Inkster should take on a new challenge rather than this one, Mr. Speaker, because it is proven time and time again that he is wrong when it comes to the operations of this Chamber.

So with those few comments, I will yield the floor to one of my other colleagues. Thank you.

Mr. Bidhu Jha (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I am extremely happy to talk against this bill for a simple reason. I did prepare a pretty good write-up to speak. Unfortunately, I have not brought it with me, but I will talk extempore. I think my choice of politics was to come here and sit down with dignified, honest, honourable members from various constituencies and work on making laws. I think that this bill that we must sit for 80 days or 83 days or 90 days really is not what I read the role of an MLA is, with the manual I read first time. When I came, I read the manual. What is an MLA? What are the responsibilities? What are the duties? From that, I understand that our duties are to make laws, to work on regulations, work on committees and also work in constituencies.

I come from the private sector and I work very hard, but I must tell you, Mr. Speaker, for the record, that I have never worked so hard in my life as I do as an elected MLA and a backbencher. I think that there are a lot of things that we do in constituencies. There are individual cases that we attend to, there are some policies that I study, there are some committees that I sit. I see the member from Inkster is not here even today, and I think that–

Mr. Speaker: Order. It is against our rules to mention a member's absence, and I would expect the co-operation of all honourable members.

Mr. Jha: I do apologize, Mr. Speaker, but what I want to say, that the idea of sitting here for a number of days is not that important as is what we do here. The types of questions asked also reflect what are we trying to achieve here. How many bears were shot, things like that, are not really going to even help the consituency that the member represents.

I think it is important for us to understand the purpose of having an Assembly here is to make laws and to work together to make sure that we do things that are required by our own constituencies and the Assembly in general.

I also know several members come from the rural constituencies, that they travel, and it is very hard on them, on their families, and on their personal lives and, most important, on their duties in constituencies. I think that a lot of things have been talked. I would rather see more work than points of orders, Mr. Speaker, which also I consider not really very useful. I mean, you have ruled out most of the points of order not to be points of order but a dispute of facts.

We are honourable members here, we are wonderful people. We are elected by our constituents to work on issues that are important and work hard and diligently, and not only by sitting the number of days that the member has proposed. So I would say very strongly, Mr. Speaker, that I am opposed to this particular bill very strongly and request all honourable members to do their jobs as an MLA.

In the manuals, it is all written. What is an MLA? What is our duty? I think there does not say number of days are required. What you do is more important, what you achieve is more important. I think we have achieved a lot of things by working hard together, so I totally oppose this bill. Thank you very much.

Mr. David Faurschou (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I do appreciate the opportunity to address the honourable Member for Inkster's private member's bill in regard to the number of sitting days here in the Chamber.

When we are assembled in the Chamber for legislative business, it does provide for opportunity to dialogue and to make certain that all of us are on a daily basis up to date with activities of government, and also to be engaged in debate in the public's interest to make absolutely certain that legislation that comes from the Manitoba Legislative Assembly is the best legislation that all of us can subscribe to.

Right now, though, we are engaged in debate of the number of sitting days, and what we do have to do is to have balance between the time spent within the Legislative Building and within the Chamber and also, too, time spent in our communities. I know there is a lot of the public that believe the only time that we as MLAs actually earn our stipend is when we are assembled in the Chamber. That is far from the truth, Mr. Speaker, as you well know, that many, many hours are spent each and every day in representation of the communities to which we are elected.

It is incumbent upon us to spend as much time engaged with those within our constituencies to make absolutely certain that we are fully apprised of the issues and concerns that face each member of our community and to truly understand the challenges that are before them and to assist in any capacity we can. There is no direct job description, as we all know, that confines us or restricts us as MLAs. We are elected to represent, and all of us find our way within our own time as MLAs as to how to best take on that duty of representation and to make all efforts to provide for our constituents and to address their concerns.

Now, this legislation is an attempt to put into law the number of days that we are required to sit in the Chamber and to address the Orders of the Day in the legislation that is presented before us, but, Mr. Speaker, I believe that all of us should take a longer, harder look at how we conduct business of the Chamber and also, too, undertake the time required within our own communities. As I stated earlier, it requires us to strike a balance between time spent in our communities and time spent within this Legislative Building.

I truly believe we should look at our federal counterparts that have effectively created a formula that gives certainty to each and every elected member of Parliament so they can plan for their schedule throughout the year. They know when they are going to be in the Chamber on Parliament Hill, and that affords them the opportunity to be engaged within their ridings and to make appointments and are able to keep those appointments.

As it currently stands here in the province of Manitoba, we have a significant amount of uncertainty because we do not know when we are going to be recalled to the Chamber because as it stands at the present time, you, Sir, receive indication of the date to which you are going to call us back to this Chamber from the First Minister. We cannot as individuals know what the Premier (Mr. Doer) is thinking, and this spawns uncertainty and our inability to make definitive plans that engage us within our communities. Also, I might make mention that all of us have families that we would like to have some time with as well, and without being able to schedule holidays and to schedule appointments because we are uncertain as to the dates which we are going to be required to be within the Chamber.

* (10:20)

So, Mr. Speaker, I believe that if we looked to creation of a formula similar to that which has been adopted by Parliament, then we truly can strike that balance and to have some certainty in our lives and to carry out the responsibilities which we are elected to do. So I think this is a step in the right direction. However, I believe it is a wake-up call for all of us to take that opportunity to truly give thought to, and to potentially provide guidance to the government.

I think that, even though I support the intent, I do not support the legislation because I do not believe it has the flexibility or is able to adapt like the formula that has been adopted by our federal counterparts. I might just say that I believe that some co-ordinated, similar type of formula should be adopted by Manitoba. That, then, would allow us to be within our constituencies the same time–[interjection]

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. Faurschou: I believe it is very important that we are in our constituencies the same time that our federal counterparts are because all of us can appreciate the crossover between provincial legislation and federal legislation and that it is vitally important that we are given the opportunity, or that a formula is adopted that provides for the opportunity, that we have the time to spend with our members of Parliament when they are back in the ridings from Ottawa and that we can meet together.

As it stands at the present time, the members of Parliament this past week have been on break and throughout Canada, in their ridings. I can say I have not had the opportunity to engage our federal member of Parliament, Mr. Brian Pallister, in any dialogue because I have been engaged in debate and the process of committee of Estimates.

I feel that is rather unfortunate because there are issues that I am aware of, that I need to have time to dialogue with the member of Parliament from our area and I know that there are issues that he has that he would like the opportunity to dialogue with myself and other MLAs that are within the federal riding of Portage-Lisgar.

So, Mr. Speaker, although the intent of the legislation, as I have stated, has, indeed, merit, I cannot support the legislation because I do not believe it goes far enough and it is definitive enough. I believe, without an adoption of a formula which can be applied each and every year and does not require negotiation between House leaders, it does not require modification through legislation each and every year, it is a formula that does acknowledge needed breaks, so that it creates balance between the time spent within the Legislative Building and time spent within our constituency. Without striking this balance, I do not believe that we are able to fully engage our responsibilities that we are elected to do.

So I appreciate the opportunity to participate in debate regarding the legislation put before us from the Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). I look forward to, hopefully, the members of the government and colleagues listening to my proposal of creating a formula that can be applied each and every year to give us structure within our lives as MLAs.

Mr. Drew Caldwell (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to get up as the Member for Brandon East to put a few words on the record with regard to the legislation proposed by the independent Member for Inkster.

Seldom have I seen, in my five years, a piece of legislation that speaks to the heights of hypocrisy and the heights of grandstanding as this particular piece of legislation. The member from Inkster's motives in this regard are suspect at best. The independent member from Inkster was party to an agreement concluded by all parties in this Legislature which defined the sitting days of this House. He put his name and reputation, dare I say his integrity, on the line when he agreed with other parties in this House to define the sitting days of this Legislature. No sooner was the ink dry when the independent Member for Inkster walked away from his signature, walked away from his pledge, walked away from his commitment and essentially back-stabbed the other members of this House with this outrageous piece of legislation that he has proposed. This legislation proposed by the independent Member for Inkster, who does not represent any recognized party in this House, is grandstanding, pure and simple. It has no other merit.

The Member for Portage (Mr. Faurschou) spoke just before me. All of us in this House have constituencies we attend to diligently. We have constituency work we attend to diligently. I know the Member for Portage. I drive through the member's home community once or twice or three times a week, depending on the degree of constituency business I have to attend to in my home constituency of Brandon East. I know Portage very well. My grandparents, my mother's side of the family, were from Portage, are interred in Portage.

My colleague from La Verendrye suggested I may run in Portage next time. I can assure the member from Portage I will not be. However, we will have a vigorous campaign in that constituency next election. Mr. Speaker.

I am always very happy to visit Portage, to visit my family in Portage, and I have spent many Christmases and Easters and summer holidays in Portage. I have a very fond spot in my heart for Portage. The member has a beautiful community that he represents, and he has to spend a lot of time in Portage, in his constituency. All of us have to spend a lot of time in our constituencies attending to the concerns of our constituents.

It seems the only concern of the independent Member for Inkster is that he gets his five minutes of face time during Question Period, Mr. Speaker, so that he can grandstand in this House for the media and give the appearance to the public that he is a hard-working, responsible, diligent representative of the people in the province of Manitoba.

Well, Mr. Speaker, as we all know in this House, the work that takes place in Question Period, while important, constitutes a very small amount of the workload we all have as members of this House. We have committee work to attend to, morning, noon and night, I might add, hundreds of days of that in a year. We have our constituency work, as I mentioned earlier. We have our business for our political parties that we represent, the work of our caucuses. We have meetings both in Winnipeg, in our constituencies and elsewhere.

We are charged with individual responsibilities for various interest groups, being responsible for various interest groups, whether it is the current issue around agriculture in the province or issues with Chambers of Commerce or issues with labour councils, issues with teachers, issues with health care, issues with school divisions, so we really work 365 days a year.

* (10:30)

I know, Mr. Speaker, that this afternoon I will be leaving this House sometime after 4:30, five o'clock, to rush back to Brandon to meet with a grandparents' support group in the city of Brandon who are currently engaged with members of this House around grandparents' rights.

Tomorrow, Friday, which is essentially for me a constituency day, and for many of us in this House a constituency day, will be engaged with constituents from 8:30 tomorrow morning, and my day will end sometime after ten o'clock at Rural Forum tomorrow night, a 14-, 15-hour day. These are the facts of life and typical for members of this Legislature.

On the weekend, Mr. Speaker, I know that many of us, I dare say all of us, have a great deal of constituency work to do on weekends. This weekend in Brandon I will be participating in the May Day activities with the Brandon District Labour Council and working people in Brandon, both commemorating the achievements of labour, the global achievements of labour and working people in creating a better world for all of us, as well as remembering and honouring those workers who have died and been injured in the workplace, which are ceremonies that are going on today, in fact both in Brandon and in Winnipeg as well as other parts around the province commemorating workplace safety issues and honouring those who have been injured in the workplace.

I may have a few hours on Saturday afternoon this weekend to do some grocery shopping and maybe do some yard work in my home in Brandon, but Sunday is a work day, Monday is a work day, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and generally Saturdays are too. I fully expect some work to emerge during my case work tomorrow, on Friday, that will take me to the office for a few hours on Saturday to be able to address constituents' concerns.

As I said, this bill that has been introduced by the independent Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), is nothing more than a grandstand by the member. All members in this House now know what his word is worth when he signs a document. We know what his word is worth, his integrity is on making a commitment in this House, and it speaks very sadly and speaks very ill of the member and his integrity in this regard.

This bill is about nothing more than grandstanding, Mr. Speaker. It is about nothing more than the member attempting to keep his seat in Inkster. I know he spends a lot of time in McDonald's, probably more time in McDonald's than he spends in this building. So there is not anything good to say about this bill whatsoever. It reflects ill on the member. It speaks to the very worst impulses of members in this House, and we will all be happy at the end of the next election period when we have a new MLA from Inkster. Thank you.

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to speak to Bill 201 and follow in the footsteps of a great member from Brandon East and continue on with the saga of the Member for Inkster in his attempt to promote, what he thinks anyway is to promote more sitting days in the Legislature.

The fact of the matter is, the member does not recognize how much work is actually done by the members of this Legislature on a year-round basis and is choosing to pick and choose his disagreements. For example, when the parties got together, and he does not represent a party in this Legislature, he is an independent member, he agreed with the agreement that the government and the opposition developed at the time.

The ink had not even dried on the contract and the member is running around introducing bills. It does not take a lot of effort to introduce a bill. You simply look at a little spot and get somebody to draft the bill for you, and then that gives you a hundred spots on TV and radio and so on, complaining about that we do not sit enough.

That is what this is all about is giving the member some much-needed media exposure and air time. There are other issues he can develop, and he has a couple of others he has been doing quite well with. It is just that I do not see his point on this one. In any event, the member mentioned this is full of hypocrisy and grandstanding and that is exactly what it is.

The member actually takes a very active interest in procedures and has since he was first elected back in 1988. It would be different if he was not so active, but he is involved in the procedures on a daily basis so he has the inside scoop on what is being negotiated, and then as soon as he sees an opportunity, he agrees, and then a few minutes later, he sees an opportunity and boom, he is right out there doing a little press conference and doing a 360 on this.

The member talks about the fact that there were not a lot of sitting days back in 2003, and the member should know that 2003 was an election year. As a matter of fact, if you look back to the beginning of the Manitoba Legislature in 1870, you will find that for many years the Legislature only sat a couple of times a year.

Those were the days when the MLAs were just part-time. As a matter of fact, they did not even get their pay on a biweekly basis. They got paid, I think it was, part of it at the beginning of the session, and part of it at the end. That was the procedure we followed in Manitoba up until very recent times. It was only I believe in the 1970s, late sixties, early seventies, that the Legislature developed a policy of paying the MLAs on a paycheque basis.

If you look at how the legislatures have sat over those years, you will find that when there was a crisis in Manitoba and they had to sit, they called a special sitting, and they did not sit again until the next regular sitting, but there is no guarantee that if we sat here 365 days a year, the member would be any better than he is with his 80 days, or any of us for that matter.

Then we get down to the definition of what he calls a day. I ask him every day or two, "Is this a real day or not a real day?" He has his own calendar. He kind of makes it up. He calls it as he sees it, and if he does not see it, he makes it up.

It is kind of a case of the tail wagging the dog. You have one member here, and he is trying to throw 56 other members around, but the member does enjoy this House, probably more than a lot of other people do. I do not know what he would do if he was not here, so there is always a part of me that really cheers him on because it has to be a very lonesome existence–

An Honourable Member: Hopeless.

Mr. Maloway: –hopeless existence to be a single-member or a two-member caucus in a House of 57. I mean, it has got to have its own special challenges. We have to give him a little bit of leeway here, and I do try to see things from his perspective as much as possible.

An Honourable Member: The seating plan.

Mr. Maloway: Oh, the Member for St. Vital (Ms. Allen) reminds me of one of the big issues of the two independent Liberal members when they first got elected here. They develop a big public fight here over the seating plan of where they want to sit. Dr. Evil and Mini Me, right. If you have ever seen the movie and if you have not–

* (10:40)

Mr. Speaker: Order. All members in this House are honourable members and they should be addressed by their constituency or ministers by their title. I ask that–[interjection] Order.

Mr. Maloway: I happen to know that the member does have a sense of humour. So I expect that the member will be encouraged by all of our attention. I do hesitate to spend too much time on this because now he will just look for another bill to come up with.

I do want to mention, Mr. Speaker, if it is acceptable, that very recently we had an airline bankruptcy in the province, well, in Canada, and a number of people lost money. I do want to say that it was the foresight of this government that it was the only jurisdiction in all of Canada following, I think, two jurisdictions in the United States that had the wisdom to put into the new consumer laws protection so that anybody buying a product on the Internet, if they do not receive the product, the credit cards are required by Manitoba law to give them their money back. I think this is incumbent upon all members that when they are talking to their constituents we should be publicizing this a lot more. I know that we are not, because every time I put this in my leaflets and so on, my constituents tell me they have never heard of it before.

It has been the law here for at least three years. It is designed to promote the use of the Internet and Internet purchases. So you should be able to tell you constituents, or anybody that asks you, that they should fear not, that they can buy things on the Internet. If they do not receive the item, by Manitoba law, the credit card company will be held responsible. I think we should be taking credit for this because we are the only province in Canada to have passed such legislation. We are going to see a lot more confidence in Internet purchases in the future because of this, right, because anybody who lost money, and I know some people in this Legislature, people who lost money, all of them, are going to get their money back from the credit card companies that they–[interjection]

This is legislation, to the Member for Inkster, I am not sure how he voted on it, but the e-commerce legislation was passed by this House. I would hope that he is on record as voting in favour because I know that his constituents would not be happy to find out that he had voted against this. So maybe we will have to check that voting record.

So, Mr. Speaker, I know there are other people that want to speak to this bill, so I would be very happy to listen to the next speech.

Mr. Speaker: Are there any other speakers? If not, when this matter is again before the House, the honourable Member for Minto (Mr. Swan) will have five minutes remaining. It will also remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck).

Bill 202–The Health Services Amendment and Health Services Insurance Amendment Act

Mr. Speaker: We will now move on to Bill 202, The Health Services Amendment and Health Services Insurance Amendment Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Inkster, who has six minutes remaining.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): It is a pleasure for me to speak on Bill 202. It is a bill which, Mr. Speaker, we hope within the Manitoba Liberal Party that we will get other members engaged in debate and ultimately see this bill voted upon. I have argued in the past, and will continue to argue, that private members' bills should all be provided the opportunity to be voted on so government and all members are clearly on the record as to whether or not they support or they do not support the principle of a bill.

Bill 202 really and truly is a bill which one would think that the New Democrats would get behind. I am sure their federal cousins in Ottawa, Mr. Jack Layton and company, would support it. In fact, you will recall it was the then-Prime Minister Jean Chrétien that appointed Roy Romanow to look at health care to come up with some solutions so that we will have health care well into the future. One of the major platforms or principles that Roy Romanow came out with was that of accountability. He, in essence, indicated that we should allow for health care to be operated on the principle of accountability, and that is why we believe it is indeed most appropriate for the Manitoba Legislature to recognize the importance of accountability as one of the additions to the five fundamental principles of health care.

We have seen this government, more than any other government in Manitoba's history, increase the cost of health care to the degree in which they have in such a short period of time. They have thrown so much money into health care, and ultimately one has to question in terms of what sort of tangible results we have gotten from the amount of money that has been invested. Obviously, the government of the day is going to be able to say, "Well, we have put this over here, we have done this, and we have done that and we have done this." If you are spending the hundreds of millions of additional dollars in five to six years, you are going to be able to make those sorts of assertions. But the issue for us is ensuring that there is a stronger link for accountability of tax dollars that are being spent on health care. What accountability means is accountability for the cost of care, accountability for the quality of care, accountability for the provision of quick access to qualify for care. All of these things are critically important, and we ask the government to recognize that value, to recognize what Roy Romanow has talked about.

I appreciate the comments from the government in regard to the bill that I have introduced. You know, quite often it is difficult just to sit and listen and not interject because I think they bring a bias to the Legislature, a bias that maybe some might say has a kind of a lazy attitude towards democratic principles. It is all about accountability. If you carry it through, ultimately this government could argue, well, you know, in the name of efficiency we could sit 20 days a year and do all the other things that we want to be able to do in the other 345 days.

All we are arguing in that particular bill is a minimum number of calendar days of being in the session. The reason for that, Mr. Speaker, is because then it allows for a better sense of democracy and more accountability. That is really the core of what this bill is all about that we are now debating, is accountability. We want more accountability.

On the issue of health care, I would have thought the New Democrats would be gung-ho on ensuring there is more accountability. They need to take the blinders off. They will not be in government indefinitely. There will come a point in time, some of us believe a whole lot sooner than they think, where they will not be in government. When that occurs, I am sure they are going to be arguing that we want accountability or more accountability in health care. Well, they are in a position today in which they can ensure better accountability, not only for today but also for tomorrow. Why squander that opportunity? Why squander it? Why not accept the ideas, Liberal ideas. You know, their federal counterparts in Ottawa have acknowledged the benefits of good Liberal ideas, as we have acknowledged, in part, good New Democratic ideas, Mr. Speaker. No one owns a good idea. As the member from Steinbach often says, "When you see a good idea, let us act upon it. Let us jointly work together and make it happen."

* (10:50)

Well, this is something which is a good idea, should receive support from all sides inside this Chamber because it is something which Canadians as a whole want to see. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for the opportunity to speak.

Mr. Andrew Swan (Minto): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg), that debate on this motion be adjourned.

Motion agreed to.

Bill 203–The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Amendment Act

Mr. Speaker: Bill 203, The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Amendment Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Rossmere.

Is it the will of the House for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Rossmere. Agreed? [Agreed]

Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Just to put a few words on the record on Bill 203, The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Amendment Act, and certainly one can understand the frustrations and the dilemma that many people find themselves in, especially those that are very often not capable, and because of disabilities, find themselves in a position whereby difficulties occur in their ability to fend for themselves.

I think that this bill is largely drafted in respect of a situation that occurred in the member's constituency that is proposing this bill. I think the honourable Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson), in her attempt to address a specific situation that has occurred, is exemplary, Mr. Speaker, of issues that those of us that are elected to represent our areas, that are specifically in our constituencies, find ourselves in on numerous occasions although they do not always apply to public insurance and the public insurance act, but they are of a similar nature and deal with public insurance vehicles even such as Workers Compensation whereby individuals have, in some instances, even bought private insurance. Then, when they do have accidents or occurrences that do not allow them to go to work, they find themselves in a position whereby those corporations, those public corporations then have the ability to go back to those private insurance corporations, use that money to offset the money that should have actually been paid through either Workers Compensation or the public insurance fund.

I believe there is a broader public policy issue that needs to be addressed here. Is it the right, should it be the right, of the general public to set up insurance corporations? I think we have that right, and that has been demonstrated in Manitoba through public insurance corporations and the Workers Compensation programs. But should we have given them the right to walk into a couple's or a person's life and say that just because you privately took an initiative to buy further insurance or to be able to apply to another agency, federal agency in this matter for disability insurance, and should then a third party in that situation, in other words this person's spouse who are separated, should the corporation then have the right to go after that third party's spouse to recoup the monies that were initially designated as the insured's insurance rights and the insured's income. I think this is the public policy that we need to address.

I take it the honourable Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson) has taken the initiative to provide this House with an ability, first of all, to debate the issue, but secondly, to address by virtue of this bill specifically, an issue that confronts a couple in Manitoba.

I think we should take a hard look at this. I think we should do some serious soul-searching and support this bill as an initial approach to changing some of the processes from a public policy perspective that we have allowed to continuously happen.

I believe personally that it is every person's right, and should be every person's right to insure beyond an insurance scheme that is publicly funded and publicly held and then prescribed to by an individual to that Public Insurance Corporation, or through that, whether that be Workers Compensation or Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation.

I believe we should seriously start looking at allowing an individual, because every individual has different needs, especially when they become aged, and many do not have enough income or contributed to an income scheme that will allow them to live comfortably. When disablement comes, and the application is made through the disability pension, then that person that has privately insured with his own money or her own money to give them that additional income should an accident occur, should something occur that would disable them, we then claw that back through the Public Insurance Corporation and through Workers Comp.

I think that is an area we should explore and give some allowances to those people that take that initiative upon themselves to address, not so much this specific issue, but on a broader base, an issue that might confront many of us in the future.

I would certainly urge that the members of the Legislature take a hard look at this and view this as an initial process of change when this bill is passed by the Legislative Assembly. I would urge especially the members on the government side of the House that they should seriously consider supporting this bill because this addresses a very specific instance whereby a couple were given, one member of a family was given an indemnity through disability, through Canada Pension, and that person's spouse then shared in that pension. Now the clawback comes by the Public Insurance Corporation and is clawed back from both individuals.

I think there is a case to be made here that those individuals' rights are being impeded. I think we as public servants, and those of us that are charged with the responsibility of looking at legislation and making legislation to ensure that people's rights are upheld, need to seriously consider this because I think this is an area where the public needs to address, and we represent the public, an issue whereby a claim on a person that should not probably be claimed on is happening.

I would hope that we as legislators will take it upon ourselves to review very seriously this matter and pass this piece of legislation that will give us the foundation to further discuss. Maybe government, at some point, will then see fit to bring a bill that would address the broader issue that I have touched upon here today.

Mr. Speaker, I would, with those few words, strongly urge everyone in this Assembly to support the passage of this bill, Bill 203, and help this specific incident, but with the intent to have further discussions on this matter to address the broader issue.

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Mr. Speaker: Any other speakers? When this matter is again before the House, it will remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Rossmere.

The hour being 11 a.m., we will now move on to resolutions, and the first resolution we have is brought forward by the honourable Member for St. James, Celebration of the 60th Anniversary of V-E Day.

RESOLUTIONS–COMMITTEE SELECTION

Res. 2–Celebration of the 60th

Anniversary of V-E Day

Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen):

WHEREAS World War II was declared on September 3, 1939, by Britain and France against Germany after they invaded Poland; and

WHEREAS the war eventually encompassed Europe, Asia, Africa and the far-flung islands of the Pacific as well; and

WHEREAS the war was the greatest and most destructive war in history which strained the economic capabilities of major nations and left many countries on the edge of collapse; and

WHEREAS more than an estimated 17 million members of the armed forces of the various belligerents perished during the conflict; and

WHEREAS in the six years of conflict, Canada enlisted more than one million men and women in the armed forces with over 55 000 wounded and 45 000 giving their lives in the cause of peace and freedom; and

WHEREAS on May 7, 1945, Germany surrendered and May 8 was declared V-E Day (Victory in Europe).

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, in celebration of the 60th anniversary of V-E Day, express on behalf of all Manitobans our deepest sympathies and thanks for the sacrifices of those Canadians who joined the forces and those that supported the war effort on the home base; and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this Assembly call on all generations and governments to be involved in the ongoing struggle for world peace and social justice.

Motion presented.

Ms. Korzeniowski: Mr. Speaker, I am very honoured to speak to this proclamation. The federal Minister of Veterans Affairs has proclaimed 2005 the Year of the Veteran. The Second World War was the world's largest and most bloody formal armed conflict.

Over 50 million civilians and soldiers lost their lives, more than all other preceding modern wars combined. It was truly a world war encircling the globe from the Atlantic to the Pacific and touching the far reaches of the Arctic.

In total, more than one million Canadians served in the Second World War, and of the million who served, more than 42 000 gave their lives, and another 55 000 were wounded. More than 23 000 Canadians lay down their lives serving in the army, 17 000 in the Air Force, 2000 in the Navy and another 1600 in the Merchant Navy.

I want to acknowledge the considerable contribution women made to the war efforts, but I will leave it for my colleague from Fort Garry to elaborate. The efforts of all veterans should never be forgotten.

A full year of remembrance is well deserved: 2005 is also the 100th anniversary of the Royal Canadian Horse Artillery. The RCHA are now located at Canadian Forces Base Shilo in Brandon.

Mr. Speaker, 2005 will be a particularly meaningful time for me. My father, Staff Sergeant Cleveland Grant, was a member of the 2 RCHA. His position took him to the Korean War after surviving the Canoe River train wreck, and then to northern Germany in 1952 as part of the NATO forces that helped to bring stability to Germany.

This was only seven years after V-E Day. My mother, Myrtle, sister Dorene and I joined my father in Germany as part of the contingent of Canadian families. The permanent married quarters were not yet built, so we fortunately had to live on the economy in a village called Langscheid on Sorpesee, Sorpesee being one of the three dams bombed during the war.

I was a pre-teen at the time but the memories are still pretty vivid. The house we lived in bore evidence of the devastation of the war. I distinctly remember cupboards riddled with bullet holes, spartan furnishings, as well as a cow, two pigs and six chickens in the cellar where our toilet was.

However, the warm welcome and kind treatment we received far outweighed any sense of being inconvenienced. Our landlord was an older man, and his daughter, who lost her fiancee to the war only a few years earlier, never married.

I remember well the times we played in the forest and found evidence of battles. One badge bearing a swastika that must have fallen off a soldier's uniform stands out in my mind. I remember finding it difficult to comprehend that any one of the German people, who were so caring to us, may well have been part of the enemy forces that we sought to kill. I sensed I had touched a part of history that I would never forget and indeed, I have never forgotten. I cannot imagine what those in the heat of it all must have felt.

When I returned to northern Germany less than six years later, I could hardly believe the changes to the economy. The place I stayed at was less than a block from my family's original house. There were no cupboards riddled with holes, there were no animals in the cellar, only the warm welcome and kind treatment remain. The result of our soldiers' presence and their efforts to help rebuild the economy was phenomenal.

The most significant memory I have of that time in Germany was the day I came driving back to my residence and was greeted by numerous townspeople gathered in the street. It was 1963. They came running to me in tears, saying that President Kennedy had been shot and killed. These German townspeople were embracing me, a Canadian, and crying over an American president's assassination. It was during that moment that I realized the enormity of what all veterans had given people all over the world, freedom, not only to live but to love.

On June 6, 1944, or D-Day, Operation Overlord, the long-awaited mission invasion to northwest Europe began with Allied landings on the coast of Normandy. All three Canadian services shared in the assault. Canada's merchant navy also made a vital contribution transporting desperately needed equipment, fuel, goods and personnel. Of the nearly 150 000 troops who landed or parachuted into the invasion area, 14 000 were Canadians. They assaulted a beachfront code named Juno. While Canadian troopers landed just east of the assault beaches, although they encountered fierce German defences, the invasion was a success. On D-Day, Canadians suffered over 1000 casualties, including over 350 killed.

I am grateful that I have first-hand stories to help me understand and appreciate what it was like to be there. My stepfather, Sergeant Gordon Anderson, was with the Second Division of the Canadian Infantry Brigade. He told me that on the evening of June 5 he went out for a cigarette before retiring for the night. He was about 21 or 22. Standing on the cliffs of Dover, he looked out on the channel and saw hundreds of ships sitting in wait. He ran back to report to his commanding officer, who subsequently took him into his tent and showed him the plan that would unfold within hours, part of history. He was on the second wave of the plan. If I am able to picture it and put myself there, how must he feel reliving it? He does not talk about what he saw when he landed.

Our Legions and our veterans associations have done a remarkable job of keeping alive the memories and preserving the historical record of World War II through commemoration ceremonies, education in schools, museums throughout the province, et cetera.

Winnipeg is home to 17 Wing of the Royal Canadian Air Force. The RCAF's connection to Winnipeg dates back to 1922. The headquarters building is named after Billy Bishop, who with 72 aerial victories to his credit is Canada's greatest air ace of all time. Today the Bishop Building hosts 1 Canadian Air Division and the Canadian NORAD Region Headquarters.

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It is the centre point of command and control for Canada's Air Force and also is home to the Air Force Heritage Park Museum and park. The museum is a showcase of Canada's Air Force history that we can all be proud of. The Battle of Britain lace tapestry, which is the largest piece in the world, is two stories high with almost 40 000 kilometres of thread. Visitors to the Air Force Heritage Museum can also learn about the life and achievements of Victoria Cross- and George Cross-winning members of the Canadian Air Force, and one such winner, Winnipeg native Andrew Mynarski, although awarded the Victoria Cross many years ago, his memory lives on internationally. There is a local school, Legion and, most recently, a cadet squadron named after him.

Across the road, on Air Force Way, is the garden of memories located in the Air Force Heritage Park. It was created to commemorate the participation of Manitoba in British Commonwealth Air Training Plan during the Second World War. The first time they read the honour roll call I was amazed and deeply touched by how very young they were. At an average age of only 20, most of these pilots and crews died before they had a chance to really live. Each year, I am still touched. During World War II, the Royal Canadian Air Force Station Winnipeg became a major air force base as part of the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan which trained more than 130 000 pilots, navigators, observers, and wireless operators. The museum is located just north of Brandon. There are a number of excellent exhibits that record the history of both the plan and the base. We are lucky to have such a rich historical record of World War II in Winnipeg alone.

Fort Garry Horse Museum at McGregor Armouries and the Royal Winnipeg Rifles regimental museum in Minto are other noteworthy examples of efforts to preserve Manitoba's military history. We also have a fine naval museum in Manitoba which is located in the HMCS Chippawa building at One Navy Way in downtown Winnipeg.

Brookside Cemetery also holds many monuments and cairns where several ceremonies are held to honour veterans each year. The government of Manitoba also realizes the importance of recognizing the contribution veterans have made. On Monday, April 25, it was announced that there would be funding for a new clinic to be housed in the Women's Memorial Tribute building in front of Deer Lodge Centre on Portage Avenue. This glorious memorial to our veterans of World War I, which is close to destruction, will now be restored, preserving a historic landmark. This is a tribute, not only to our veterans, but to those women who worked so long and hard to build it.

The Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr. Lemieux) announced a special licence plate for veterans and peacekeepers. I am proud to say that the honourable member from Assiniboia and I initiated the introduction of this licence plate through regulation change. It was a pleasure to work with the minister and representatives from Legions and various veterans' associations upon the design of the plate as well as eligibility issues. It was also a pleasure to consult with them on plans for a highway to be named to pay tribute to our veterans. Details regarding this highway will be announced in the very near future. This highway will complement the many lakes already named after our heroes.

Last year our government supported the erection of a cairn near the cenotaph on Memorial Boulevard in tribute to our peacekeepers, past, present and future. As part of the provincial participation in the V-E Day celebration a book of thanks will be available for all Manitobans to sign in the front lobby of the Legislative Building until the end of May. A commemorative ceremony called The Freedom of the Province will begin at the front of the Legislature at 1 p.m. on May 8, V-E Day. Veterans will parade around the building with vintage vehicles.

Later that afternoon a welcome-home party will be held in honour of the veterans at the Via Rail Station. The Via Rail Station used to be the old Union Station which was the site of arrival for many veterans returning home to Winnipeg in 1945. I remember meeting my father at the station in 1952 when he returned from Korea. I still have a photo taken by the newspaper of him standing with me and holding my sister.

Also, to honour the veterans, the front of the Legislature, Broadway Avenue will be lined with beautiful commemorative banners recognizing the 60th Anniversary of V-E Day. To complement the banners, there will be a flower bed in front of the building to carry a floral display logo of the theme, Year of the Veteran.

As a wonderful grand finale to the Year of the Veteran celebrations, later this fall the Royal Military Institute of Manitoba, in partnership with the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra, will be presenting the Victory Concert at the MTS Centre. This concert will be a spectacular tribute to our veterans, featuring a cast of hundreds. Our government is happy to support this production.

Although many events are being planned to celebrate veterans this year, it will never be enough to repay them for the sacrifices they have made on our behalf. When I think of how much we are indebted to our veterans, I am reminded of a quote by Winston Churchill which summarizes the events of World War II perfectly: "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." Thank you.

Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I want to rise to put a few comments on the record. There are a number of members from my side of the House that also have veterans in the past in their families, and members that some did not come home, and some served in the services to make this a better country for what it is. We would like to support this resolution brought forward by the member from St. James.

Generations and future generations to come will remember the services and sacrifices made by all members, all people of many, many countries fighting for the freedom and the safety of our country that we live in today.

I would like to remind people that on May 8 of 1945 it became a day to remember. Loved ones were able to come home and be reunited with their families. The sacrifices that were made by many families, not only by the mothers that were left at home but also the mothers that gave up bearing children so they could go and serve the army and the navy and the other services, that they could make this a better place to live.

The other thing I want to remind people is that also on Veterans' Day, May 8, in Buckingham Palace the flyby will be signified by the fact that they will be dropping poppies this year over Buckingham Palace in a tribute to May 8. Also, I remember back in 1995, through some of my history, the great country of Netherlands sent 100 000 tulips to Ottawa for the safe protection of the Royal Family. That now has become Ottawa's famous Tulip Festival. There will be services throughout Canada on May 8. I would encourage all of us to take time to take part in each of those services as we can.

There is also a thing to remember that we did bring a bill forward. Unfortunately, the government does not want to take credit for the fact that it was us on this side of the House that brought the Poppy Licence Plate bill into the House. They did it through regulation, but we do give them credit for seeing that through. When we drive around the province today, it is quite an honour to see the tribute that is being paid to our veterans and the licence plate recognition that has been passed on from generation to generation.

We have to remember the Legionnaires that are out and about within the province of Manitoba, in fact for all of Canada. I know the Province of British Columbia made a point of moving their bill through. They got it through in about three weeks and had theirs ready for D-Day last year. So I give them credit as well. The last thing that I would like to bring about is those that did not come home, those lives that were lost, the families that were missing their loved ones, and we want to pay tribute to them.

So in closing, Mr. Speaker, we would like to just say let us not forget those people. Thank you.

Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I know there are other members that want to speak. I just want to put a few words on the record in support of the resolution. I want to start by thanking veterans all across Canada that are ensuring that we pay tribute to not only the successful efforts in the Second World War of our veterans and in the Korean War and peacekeeping missions, but also allow us to remember their fallen comrades who died at very young ages to protect our democracy, to protect our communities and to protect us against a totalitarian force that had taken land and people into their power in Europe and in the Pacific region.

I know that many of us in this Chamber have a window on the war with our own family members. The member from St. James talked about her family. Certainly I listen long and hard to stories at the lake with my parents and my aunts and uncles and other members of our family and their friends and their families' friends who had different roles in the Second World War. I note today that Christine Melnick's uncle, George Corley, is the individual who is on the front page of the paper representing veterans in Holland for the liberation of that country.

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I think it is important for us to note that as we have a bit of a window through our own families and our own parents perhaps in this House, looking at the demographics of this Chamber, it is important for our veterans and all of us to keep this torch of remembrance high with our children. I think it is really important that veterans are going to schools and talking to our children. We can talk about the Second World War, but it has been very, very important for veterans to speak directly with children and talk about the horrors of war and the sacrifices that people made to ensure that our communities were safe and democracy that we celebrate in this Chamber every day was protected with their ultimate sacrifice. You have an opportunity to talk to a lot of veterans when you are in public life, and it is a real honour, I think, for all of us. This is not a political issue; it is a non-partisan issue.

Even when we were announcing the book of thanks for the veterans at the Chamber, one of the veterans I had an opportunity to talk with had been in the Battle of Hong Kong as a young man and, of course, he was taken captive. He was not killed, he was taken captive as a Canadian soldier and spent three and a half years in a Japanese prison camp after the Battle of Hong Kong, a horrific, horrific story of barbaric behaviour in that camp. Very few of the people that were taken captive ultimately survived. He was one of them and was able to relate some of the stories of his capture and his battle in the Battle of Hong Kong.

I think all of us who have been to Europe and have been to visit the cemeteries that are scattered around Europe with Canadian soldiers and Allied soldiers in the fields are struck by the ages, the youth of people from all over Canada. I had the opportunity to visit a cemetery in commemoration of the sacrifices that were given in the ultimate way by airmen just south of Munich, and I was just struck: Neepawa, Poplarfield, Birtle, Russell, The Pas, Flin Flon, Winnipeg, Beausejour, Gimli, on and on, 19 years old, 20 years old, 21 years of age. You know, it just really brings it home about how horrific the war was. As we celebrate our victory, we know that we have to remember those who paid the ultimate price.

We have many events in this Legislature in the next period of time, including the parade on May 8. I think it is very, very important for all of us to continue to participate with the remembrance to our veterans. I just want to thank all our veterans that are here today and all the veterans that carry the torch for liberty, for freedom, for democracy and whose comrades paid the ultimate price for our democracy years ago. Thank you.

Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): I want to acknowledge the words put on record by the First Minister. I want to, as well, put some thoughts on the record on this initiative, the celebration of the 60th anniversary of V-E Day. I know it is a member's resolution brought forward by the honourable member from St. James, and I congratulate her on that because, as the First Minister said, this is an opportunity for, I think, what a lot of people in democracy who have the ability to vote like to see from their elected representatives. That is something that is not always pitting one party against another party, but really sitting back and looking at something that is very important to all of us, standing in our places regardless of our political stripe and looking at something that is important to all of us, because I look around this Chamber, and certainly I know that my father was in World War II and I would say in this Chamber there is a vast majority of members voted here have had a parent or parents involved in some form of combat through their younger years.

I know that this initiative is very important for all of us to take a few moments to celebrate V-E Day. I think celebration is perhaps a double-edged sword because there are those who are not alive today to be part of that celebration, and yet, when we celebrate, it is important that we remember the reason we are celebrating is that the people gave the ulitmate sacrifice to ensure that freedom, democracy, those kinds of very fundamental principles that, perhaps, we take for granted from time to time.

These kinds of initiatives, the 60th Anniversary of V-E Day I think is very important to all of us. I always try to remind my two daughters that we in Canada are so fortunate that if you want to stand on a soapbox on Portage and Main and say your personal view, it may be absolutely opposed by everybody else walking down the street, but you have the right to do so because people gave their lives to allow for everybody to express their own opinion.

I try to remind them why I think it is so important that they respect events like V-E Day, like November 11, which is an important day, Remembrance Day. Those dates, for our younger people, I think are very important to educate them to understand the importance that we as Canadians have the ability to appreciate freedom. We have that because people were prepared to lay down their lives so that others behind them could enjoy freedom.

I know that every day, and all of us in this Chamber during Remembrance Day celebrations, where we remember the issues of war past, what always strikes me is that when you look in the eyes of those veterans, you cannot imagine what it is they live day in, day out. Those are the survivors.

Every year, sometimes there is one less veteran attending a Remembrance Day event. As those veterans get older, there is less and less of them. Surely we all in this Legislature must remember more and more of what they did. I think that is the reason that, when we look at the initiative, we must and will do our part to ensure we remember those that have allowed us to lead the kinds of lives we can because they laid down their lives. It is incumbent upon us to take time, not on a one-time basis, but on a daily basis to really try to understand how precious life is, but how serious people are when democracy is threatened and how they are able to rally, to stand for that principle of freedom and democracy.

I know in this province and across Canada, there will be tremendous opportunities for us to pay respects to those that lay down their lives and those that are living today, for us to honour them as heroes, true heroes and people to be looked up toward because of what they have done and what they have allowed us to do.

Mr. Speaker, I want to say again to all of those veterans that are present in the gallery, present with us today, I want to again acknowledge the resolution brought forward by the honourable member from St. James. Certainly, this is a unanimous resolution that will be supported by all of us and appreciated by all of us because it is the right thing to do.

Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, first of all, I would like to salute those veterans that may be with us today and sitting in the gallery.

The federal government has proclaimed 2005 The Year of the Veteran and justly so. The government of Manitoba realizes the importance of veterans and the contribution of veterans and has last November, via the Ministry of Transportation, introduced a special licence plate for veterans and peacekeepers.

The 60th anniversary of V-E Day, Victory in Europe Day, is on May 8, 1945. It is a victory, but I think we have to realize that it was a victory at a tremendous cost, and what cost. The raw figures alone probably do not really give us a gut feeling of the dimension of the disaster. Fifty to sixty million people died. Thirty million died in the former Soviet Union. Twenty million died in Russia alone. Seventeen million soldiers died. One hundred thousand Canadians were either killed or wounded. Six million Jewish people perished in the Holocaust.

It is a litany of barbarism and pain. I could name some of those centres of pain, the dozens of concentration camps scattered all over Europe, names that you probably remember: Auschwitz and Dachau and Bergen-Belsen, Sobibor, Ravensbrück,et cetera.

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Every time we go to Amsterdam, because I was formerly a Dutch citizen, I go to Anne Frank House, and every time I am powerfully struck with what must have happened then. I am also very proud of my former, I guess, Dutch citizens, my friends who, in many cases, risked their own lives in making sure that Jewish people could escape the tyranny of the Nazi regime.

That tyranny, that violence, was directed not only at Jewish people, although that was bad enough, it was also directed at Gypsies and homosexuals and social democrats and particularly at Communists, at union leaders, at religious leaders, some scientists and educators that did not toe the Nazi line. They were all targeted.

A celebration of the 60th anniversary of V-E Day, for me, has a very personal dimension, because I was in Europe on that fateful May 8, 1945. I may have only been three years old, but I certainly knew then, a little bit in a confused way, and later on, what the struggle was all about. It was not, for me, a theoretical struggle. I had to live with the aftermath of that struggle all my young life and it was very, very painful for all of us.

I remember, for example, my dad carrying me on his back and this plane came down. It was strafing a train and I could see the steam shooting out. I could see men running and falling down. That is all I remember. I remember my dad pulling me under a bridge, saying, "Come on, kid. We got to get down here before we get shot." I was only three years old at the time.

I remember being evacuated. We were at a war front and living, basically, in holes trying to avoid getting killed. There was no place you could shop. There was no place you could get groceries or eat. At night, if you were in a house, some of these houses were bombed out. You could not have any lights, because lights were terror. You would be bombed. We had the misfortune of living right on the German border on the Dutch side and so bombers, from the air, cannot really tell where they are bombing. I remember nights where I would wake up, as a child, and I would wake up because the earth had stopped moving and stopped trembling because the bombing had ceased. You got so used to the bombing that it actually lulled you to sleep. When you think about it, think that every one of those little tremors meant some man, woman, child, down there was being blown to bits. It is incredible to believe we allowed that kind of barbarism in the 20th century or the 21st century.

Mr. Speaker, V-E Day in Europe brought victory but it did not end grief. The rebuilding of shattered lives went on. The burying of the dead, and some of my earliest memories are chasing those big ambulances around and people digging up bodies for servicemen who had died who were then relocated in larger burial places. In fact, two weeks ago, I was in such a place. I was at a place called Margraten, in Limburg, southern Holland, where 22 000 American dead were buried, soldiers, 8301 are still buried. The rest have been moved to other places and have maybe even been brought back to the United States. Beautiful place, in fact, President Bush is visiting there, I think, in the not too distant future. Beautiful place, beautiful marble white crosses or Star of David symbols and each grave is lovingly attended by a Dutch family. So out of these 8301 graves, there will be, I presume, 8301 families taking care of each one of these graves. It is quite heartening to see.

Mr. Speaker, since this war has such a personal dimension for me I wanted to mention a few soldiers. One of them is Elmer Lindoff who was the brother of Ms. Viola Mosell from Cranberry Portage, who pined for her brother all her life and talked about him and said, "Whenever you go back to Holland, Mr. Jennissen, please go visit his grave."

I have not done that, but I promised her, and she has died since, that I will go to that grave some day and I will lay a rose on that grave. He was a gunner in the 6th Field Regiment of the Royal Canadian Artillery. He was killed on the 26th of October, 1944, in the Scheldt Peninsula by an anti-tank mine. He is now buried in Bergen op Zoom, in Brabant, Holland.

The other person I would like to talk about very briefly is Martin Sonnen, Sergeant-Major Martin Sonnen, who was the father of my wife, my wife's father, who was with South Saskatchewan Regiment in D-Day who says, "My buddy Billy took one for me." His buddy Billy was in front of him and he lost his head, literally decapitated by a shell. So that saved his life. Later on he was badly wounded with shrapnel and, in fact, it led to a rather early demise. I mean, he did not die right then but it certainly complicated his life. He died in his mid-fifties.

So those are some personal dimensions. I could also say, for the record, that there are other sides that were in this battle and my wife's uncle on the German side, Ernst Bankmann, was a 17-year-old German soldier captured by the Russians and came out of Siberia in 1953. His stories are stories of pain and horror, as well.

Mr. Speaker, I strongly support this resolution by the member of St. James because I know what war does. I remember as a child the material left by war that kids play with and get blown up. It was an everyday occurrence almost in our playground to have something booby-trapped, not every day, but it happened often.

A lot of our children, I remember, had these ugly green powder burn marks on their face because of stuff that blew up in their face. This is also the aftermath.

So I want to support strongly the resolution of the member from St. James. I want to particularly point attention to the latter part of that resolution, that this Assembly call on all generations and governments to be involved in the ongoing struggle for world peace and social justice, because without social justice, without justice, you will not have peace.

It is not only the Holocaust and matters like the Ernst Zundels that are a problem for us, for all of us, because they obviously deny what is obvious. But there are also those who like to glorify war. I tell you there is nothing to find glory in, in war. It is a horrible experience. Theoretically and on the screen sometimes you see this looking pretty good. Well, let me tell you it is not pretty good. It is horrible.

We have got to get rid of this ultranationalism that sometimes pushes a kind of idea that it is okay to have war, that you solve your problem by war. We should focus on co-operation. We should focus on international agreements. We should focus on the United Nations. We should focus on eradicating poverty and injustice. No nation, no matter how well-intentioned and allegedly democratic, has the right unilaterally to declare war and just say, "Well, we are going to clean up that mess. Oh, by the way, here is a list of evil nations."

Mr. Speaker, if we go that direction, we are heading the wrong direction, because it leads to war. It leads to ultranationalism and xenophobia. It starts from the assumption we are automatically right and those guys are automatically wrong. Let me tell you, war does not solve a problem. There are just too many graves out there to prove it does not, and I am the living proof of what it does to people. It can really hurt your psyche.

To try and get over the nightmares of being a child when you have to live with bombing day after day after day. I can remember my cousin. I can remember her scream, because some sniper shot her in the leg as her mother carried her from one street to the other. Some sniper allegedly thought a woman and a baby was a danger. I do not know. I can remember those screams because they were trying to fix her leg for years afterward, because we did not have doctors, we did not have the medication.

That still haunts me to this day. It is still a nightmare. The food after the war. Mr. Speaker, I remember I was seven years old before I saw an orange. We did not see such things. We lived a very poor life, a spartan life. So when the war was over, and V-E Day, we all celebrated. It was not the end of the aftermath. The pain is still there and it resonates everywhere. I would say, never again war. If you want to get rid of war, start focussing on justice. Get rid of the jingoism, get rid of the glorification of war and start focussing on really democratic principles, that all human beings are equal. Thank you.

Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I rise to provide all-party support for this very important resolution commemorating the activities and the V-E Day which was May 8, 1945, 60 years ago.

I rise to support veterans who are alive today and who continue, and our armed forces who continue to provide an important service to Canadians and around the world as peacekeepers as well as, indeed, being there and being vigilant to try and make sure that we have better justice and fairness and peace this world.

I have a sense of a personal story. My father was in the Second World War. He fought in the campaign in Africa and in Italy. He was a medical officer in the day that he moved to the front. Two physicians who preceded him had both been killed. It certainly sends a pretty strong message when you are going to the front, and two people who were ahead of him had both lost their lives. I know that it was something that changed the way he approached a lot of things, recognizing the fragility of human life under these circumstances.

As a medical officer he was able to see people who were injured in the campaigns in which he was involved with, and live and share with day-to-day experiences of people who had injuries and who had suffered as a result of the activities, the actions in the Second World War.

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We need not only to remember what the Second World War was, we need to remember what other wars Canadians and indeed others around the world have participated in. We need to remember our veterans and ensure that our support for the veterans and their contributions continues today. We have had discussions, as the member from Russell well knows, about better support for the Legions, providing, for example, the Dauphin exemption province-wide.

This sort of ongoing support I think is important to make sure that veterans continue to feel they are honoured in an ongoing way and that their contributions are going to live on and be very important for a long, long time into the future. I think it is important today that we remain vigilant. We continue to have, as we speak, areas of the world where there are conflicts ongoing, Sudan. There are still terrorist activities in various parts of the world, and it is not something we can step back from but something that we need to be vigilant of, forward thinking and helpful of in finding solutions.

I think one of the things which we need to be vigilant of clearly is the rights of individuals, and we remember only too clearly the events of the Holocaust. That, of course, is one of the reasons why we need and I have been so supportive of the Canadian Museum for Human Rights in Manitoba. It will be a memorial to the things that have happened in the past and a reminder to us on an ongoing basis, as it is being built and after it has been built, of the things that we can do better as we move forward into the future.

There have been discussions which I have held with a number in the veterans community in Manitoba with regard to veterans and military museums in Winnipeg and in Manitoba and how we can better support these in a way that will provide a better teaching and understanding of the Canadian participation in wars like the Second World War. I think this is something that we should be looking at seriously as we move forward, remembering what happened but building for the future.

My colleague Kevin Lamoureux and I are in full support of all the others in this Legislature in supporting this resolution and honouring those who participated in the Second World War and today's veterans.

Ms. Kerri Irvin-Ross (Fort Garry): Today I would like to put a few words on the record that talk about the participation of Canadian women in World War II. The Air Force, Army and Navy used valuable female labour in many different capacities in order to release more men for combat duty. In 1941, the Royal Canadian Air Force Women's Division and the Canadian Women's Army Corps were formed. Later in 1942, the Women's Royal Canadian Naval Service was formed. Almost 50 000 Canadian women enlisted in the women's service by the war's end.

Women fulfilled many helpful roles. By 1943, the Women's Division of the Royal Canadian Air Force had grown from 11 trades to 50. The occupations open to women in the Army were initially limited, but soon they expanded. Jobs included switchboard operators, cooks, waitresses, messengers, medical orderlies and canteen helpers. They were also assigned clerical work, and many served at the National Defence headquarters in Ottawa.

However, the number of occupations increased as the war went on. By 1943, some members of the Canadian Women's Army Corps were even assigned operational duties with coastal defence units. Some tested the accuracy of height and range finders and anti-aircraft guns, while others were broadcasters and plotter telephonists in gun-operation rooms. Their work was critical to both the technical and tactical success of operations. By March 1945 the Canadian Women's Army Corps was represented in 55 different trades. Some women took on traditionally male jobs and drove trucks and ambulances, operated radars and served as mechanics. The women who volunteered made noble sacrifices for our country. For their efforts, they were never paid more than 80 percent of the basic pay given to men. They also frequently encountered hostility from civilians who believed that women's real place was in the home.

Starting in 1944, select groups were dispatched to combat areas on the European continent to serve behind the Canadian forces taking part in the invasion of Italy and later France and Germany. By the conclusion of the war, over 3000 members were overseas. This comprised 1.5 percent of the Canadian army's population in the war zone. I understand that the national poster girl for the Canadian Women's Army Corps was a Winnipeg resident, Ms. Winnifred Jones. Women were also essential to ensuring Canada's wartime economy ran at a maximum efficiency. At the peak of female employment in the fall of 1944, more than one million women were working full-time in the paid labour force. Given the social climate, this is an extraordinary number. Women worked in our war plants that made guns, ammunition, tanks and aircraft. By 1944, women comprised one-third of the workforce in the aircraft industry.

I think it is important that we remember all the men and women who served us. Thank you.

Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I am honoured to speak in support of the resolution put forward by the Member for St. James.

My father was a World War II air force veteran and, while he survived the war, his brother, my uncle, did not. My dad was also a member of the Benito Legion, and in tribute to him I became an associate member of the Charleswood Legion.

When I was a little girl I used to pore over my dad's photo albums, and I was so enthralled, looking at pictures of him and his comrades in uniform. I thought he and his comrades looked so young and so dashing, and I was captivated by those pictures and I still am.

I am here today to honour veterans and their families and to thank them for what they have done for us. Their duty, their honour and their achievements have given us the lives we have today.

I came across a book published by Tom Brokaw from NBC TV. It was called The Greatest Generation. I would just like to quote from a paragraph in his introduction: "In the spring of 1984 I went to the northwest of France to Normandy to prepare an NBC documentary on the 40th anniversary of D-Day, the massive and daring allied invasion of Europe that marked the beginning of the end of Adolph Hitler's Third Reich. There I underwent a life-changing experience. As I walked the beaches with the veterans who had returned for this anniversary, men in their sixties and seventies, and listened to their stories, I was deeply moved and profoundly grateful for all they had done. Ten years later I returned to Normandy for the 50th anniversary of the invasion, and by then I had come to understand what this generation meant to history. It is, I believe, the greatest generation any society has ever produced."

In his book, Tom Brokaw goes out to America to tell the stories of individual men and women, the story of a generation. The war stories came reluctantly, and they almost never reflected on the bravery of the storyteller. Almost always he or she was singling out someone else for praise. They are the stories of citizen heroes and heroines who came of age during the Great Depression and the Second World War and went on to build modern America.

Much of what he says about Americans in his book can also be said about Canadians. This generation was united not only by a common purpose but also by common values: duty, honour, economy, courage, service, love of family and country, and, above all, responsibility for one's self.

Brokaw also wrote, "At a time in their lives when their days and nights should have been filled with innocent adventure, love and the lessons of a workaday world, they were fighting in the most primitive conditions possible across the bloodied landscape of France, Belgium, Italy, Austria and the Coral islands of the Pacific. They answered the call to save the world from the two most powerful and ruthless military machines ever assembled, instruments of conquests in the hands of Fascist maniacs. They faced great odds, but they did not protest. They succeeded on every front. They won the war, they saved the world. They came home to joyous and short-lived celebrations and immediately began the task of rebuilding their lives and the world they wanted. They married in record numbers and gave birth to another distinctive generation, the baby boomers.

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"A grateful nation made it possible for more of them to attend college than any society had ever educated anywhere. They gave the world new science, literature, art, industry and economic strength unparalleled in the long curve of history. They helped convert a wartime economy into the most powerful peacetime economy in history. They helped rebuild the economies and political institutions of their former enemies, and they stood fast against the totalitarianism of their former allies, the Russians.

"At every stage of their lives, they were part of historic challenges and achievements of a magnitude the world had never before witnessed. The enduring contributions of this generation transcend gender. The world we know today was shaped not just on the front lines of combat. From the Great Depression forward through the war and into the years of rebuilding and unparalleled progress on almost every front, women were essential to, and leaders in, the greatest national mobilization of resources and spirit the country had ever known. They were also distinctive in that they raised the place of their gender to new heights. They changed forever the perception and the reality of women in all the disciplines of life."

While Tom Brokaw was speaking about his own country, I fully believe that what can be said, that he said about his countrymen, could also be said about the greatest generation of Canadians.

I can recall one veteran saying at the time of the erection of the Juno Beach memorial that was being put up, one veteran said, "Younger people today need to realize that we may be on crutches and canes with white hair, but not long ago we were curly-haired, young and full of vinegar." And I think in looking back at my dad's pictures, that certainly the picture that came forward is of young men and young women that were doing something when they were 18 and 19 years old. Hard for us to imagine.

The Second World War lasted six terrible years and left a legacy of death and destruction. It was truly a world war encircling the globe from the Atlantic to the Pacific and touching the far reaches of the Arctic. It was a war in which Canadian forces made many invaluable contributions. Serving in the Royal Canadian Navy, the Royal Canadian Air Force and the Canadian Army, thousands of young Canadians fought from 1939 to 1945 on various battlefronts around the world. They brought honour and a new respect to their country. For a young nation, it was a remarkable achievement. Most of all, they helped win the struggle against the tyranny and oppression which threatened to engulf the world. It was for our freedom that these young Canadians fought, and it was for that freedom that many of them died.

Canada's economic effort, too, is impressive, and her financial contribution generous. A whole new series of industries was created to meet the demands for war supplies, from munitions to motor vehicles, aircraft and ships.

In the field of diplomacy, Canada played a particularly important liaison role between Great Britain and the United States. More than one million Canadians served in the Second World War. Of these, more than 45 000 gave their lives and another 55 000 were wounded. Countless others shared the suffering and hardship of war.

Today, Canadian soldiers carry on the proud traditions of serving their country and have been recognized as a very successful United Nations peacekeeping force in many areas around the world. To all our Canadian soldiers past and present, we salute them and we thank them.

Our military heritage which the Royal Canadian Legion both symbolizes and embodies in its members cannot be separated from our national identity. We are immensely proud of our military heritage, and we must never forget the lessons and sacrifices of the past.

Mr. Harry Schellenberg (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I issue support of this resolution as a member from Rossmere. But today we celebrate the 60th anniversary of the end of World War II. By celebrating the 60th anniversary we remember, we recognize and honour and thank our veterans for their good work, which has been pointed out by the many speakers this morning.

As a Canadian history teacher for many years at River East Collegiate, I always wanted my students to know about the service and sacrifice of those that served our country. That is why our flag today is appreciated and recognized in many places like Holland, Italy, Korea, Hong Kong and other places where our soldiers served.

Also, through studying Canadian history students learned what causes war. They also focused on what we must do to keep the peace. I think the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) has touched on that very well today. Also, when students and the general public are aware and knowledgeable of events and battles in World War II, or other theatres of war, we honour and we recognize our soldiers.

Our students and the public do know about women's contributions and the Member for Fort Garry (Ms. Irvin-Ross) has touched on this very well. It must be also remembered that women made a tremendous contribution to the war effort.

Mr. Speaker, also, by studying Canadian history, our young people and the general public learn about Dieppe, they learn about D-Day, they learn about the Battle of Britain, they learn about the campaign in Italy, they learn about the importance of the poppy, they learn about the heroic battles in the Korean War, they learn about our Hong Kong veterans and what happened to these veterans in the enemy concentration camps. Just a few weeks ago, I received a phone call from a widow. She and a group are wanting to build a memorial in Brookside remembering the Hong Kong veterans. She sort of pointed out to me we had forgotten our Hong Kong heroes.

Also, by studying Canadian history we learn about the Battle of the Atlantic. Just last night close to ten o'clock, I got a phone call from a veteran, and he is mentioned in the newspaper today. He is going tomorrow to Holland. He is returning on May 10. Here I will just read a part of it, "Leo McVarish, 82, decided to join in 1942 after a cousin's friend was torpedoed. Two years later it was McVarish himself who was treading water in the Atlantic after HMCS Alberni was sunk with a loss of 59 lives, only 31 survived. It was gone in 20 seconds, McVarish said. A lot of them died on the ship. It was just so sudden."

These are the kinds of stories veterans tell me and they phone me about and they share with me. I happened to get to know Mr. McVarish and I sent him that new 2005 Year of the Veteran pin. He appreciated it because he could understand war, the cost of war. This story I read to you today he has told me previously. He said when he comes back on May 10 he is going to phone me up and we are going to have a cup of coffee and we will talk about his experiences in celebrating the 60th anniversary in Holland.

There are many of those cases in North Kildonan and East Kildonan. Also, when we study Canadian history we are reminded of the graveyards a speaker mentioned here, like Flanders Fields. My son finished university and he had all the book learning and I had always talked about memorials in other places. On his trip to Europe he went to see Flanders Fields. As he left Flanders Fields he phoned me and he said he was there. He was very touched and he was very moved by that. He then knew what war really brings.

Also, when we study Canadian history we are reminded of Anne Frank. When we study Canadian history right now we are reminded of our peacekeeping soldiers in places like Afghanistan. They are there because they are very good soldiers. They are honourable. They are respected all over the world. In fact, they always ask our soldiers to serve as peacekeepers because we as a country have done a very good job in that area.

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I want to speak about my community or North Kildonan or East Kildonan for a moment. Besides Remembrance Day of November 11, there are other ways we remember our heroes. For instance, the corner of Sutton and Henderson Highway is a memorial. It is a small one, next to a bus stop. People usually–

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Point of Order

Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Russell, on a point of order?

Mr. Leonard Derkach (Opposition House Leader): Yes, Mr. Speaker. I am wondering whether there is agreement not to see the clock until we have completed the members who want to speak on this resolution.

Mr. Speaker: Is there agreement for members to not see the clock and to deal with the resolution in its entirety? [Agreed]

* * *

Mr. Schellenberg: At the corner of Sutton and Henderson, the memorial, I always tell my students to look at it next to a bus stop. We usually are looking for the bus. We turn our back to it, and it is there to remind us. At 755 Henderson Highway we have a large memorial for World War I, World War II and the Korean War. I would always point out to my students and the public where these monuments are, the memorials, and why they are so important.

Today we still continue to honour our veterans. The Veterans Affairs, as you know, has memorials on the beaches of Normandy. We have, of course, the poppy and Remembrance Day, but beyond that, this new pin is very much appreciated. The 2005 Veteran Pin is very much appreciated by veterans. The new licence plates have been mentioned for veterans. Reducing the education property tax on Legions is very much appreciated.

Also, Mr. Speaker, these experiences live; they are right in my community. When you go to the coffee shops along Henderson Highway, you show up about ten o'clock and the seniors will all be out. You will hear first-hand experiences, and in many languages, of veterans, the various campaigns they have been in. It is most interesting if you talk to veterans because they have a rich experience to share with the public, and they are very easy to converse with because of their very rich experience.

The veterans do not just talk about the war. They talk about peace, and they talk about other issues in our society, and of course, politics, which they love. But today, we celebrate, we remember, we recognize and honour all those that have served. We should hold our heads high and salute the soldiers that have served us. We say thank you to a job well done. Canada loves you.

Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): I am pleased and honoured to put a few words on the record today to pay tribute to the men and women who served in all of the past wars and previous peacekeeping missions. We remember those who gave their lives for our freedom.

As a child growing up, I was part of the baby boom generation born quite a bit after the war. My parents were not old enough to serve in the war so there were no war stories coming from my parents. With only one maternal grandmother, there were no real war stories, but as a child, I remember going to my uncle's farm, and on his farm there was this old plane. It was from the war, I was told. It was a bomber. It was one of those planes, I do not know what it would be called, but the whole glass, the nose and the bottom of the plane were all glass. There was a gun in there, and there was an old torn uniform in the bottom of this plane, and bullet holes in the fuselage and in the windshield of the plane. As little kids, we did not really know where the plane came from or how it got there. We really did not have the wherewithal to even go and ask the questions. All we knew is that we went playing in this plane; we liked to go and play when we liked to go to my uncle's farm. Recognizing that, it is very important to keep these memories and tributes alive so that children do not forgot or do not know what has gone before them and what has brought freedom to us today.

A little later on, after my grandmother died and we went through her belongings, we found my grandfather's diary from the First World War. It was an interesting thing because, not ever having known my grandfather and finding this diary many years later and reading it, it was quite an experience. Because in his diary, he was in the First World War, he tells the story of leaving his home town in Austin, Manitoba, and travelling to Toronto, getting on a boat, going to London and then going to France, and this was just before Vimy Ridge. He tells the stories; it is very graphic in his diary, about being in the trenches and being very cold and hungry, but having the occasional spot of rum to keep warm.

He talks about the missions that they went out on, night missions, and would fire against, and he used the term "Heinie." I know that today that would certainly not be acceptable terminology, but that is what he wrote in his diary; that is the terminology they used to speak of people they were fighting against.

Then there was a ceasing in the diary of the events, and it picked up a couple of months later. What had happened was, on one particular night he had gone out on a mission and he was hit. As he said in his diary, "I was hit by a whiz-bang, caught me in the leg," and he fell and his leg was blown right off. He said, "I looked down and my leg was gone." He was very fortunate to have a friend, comrade, with him who brought him back across and saved his life.

That is a good thing; otherwise, I do not know if I would be here, because he was only 21 years old, he was not married to my grandmother yet. That was two weeks before Vimy Ridge. He did not fight at Vimy Ridge because of his injury. He was in hospital and returned safely and married my grandmother.

Unfortunately, he died an early death anyway. I would just like to say his name was Joe Morris, and I think it is really important that we all remember those who fought for us, those who died for us, and lest we forget.

Mr. Drew Caldwell (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I was born in the 1960s, part of a number of generations now that have benefited from the ultimate sacrifice made by Canadian veterans around the world: in the Pacific, in Europe, in North Africa and other places on the planet, in the battlefields of World War I, World War II, the Korean War.

My maternal grandfather, Victor E. Rands from Lavenham, fought in the trenches in World War I. My father, as many young men his age did, volunteered with the Royal Canadian Armed Service Corps as a teenager from Pipestone to go overseas. He saw service in a number of European countries, was repatriated to Canada in 1943, spent many years in hospital after his service, died a young man, a relatively young man, in his early, mid-sixties.

Mr. Speaker, our family, like many families in Manitoba, had first-hand experience with the horrors of warfare and have benefited, like many families, all families in Manitoba, from the sacrifices made by young men and women who served in the Canadian Forces, as I said, in the Second World War and Korea and the First World War.

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I think all of us in this House do credit to Manitobans, to the veterans of this nation by showing all-party support for a resolution such as this. I just want to say that I am very proud to be part of this House today in honouring and commemorating in a very, very appropriate fashion the sacrifices made by Canadian veterans. Thank you.

Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, I am honoured and humbled to be able to support the resolution brought forward by the member from St. James and I thank her for doing that. On behalf of my family and my constituents I just want to offer our deepest thanks to all of the veterans. I would like to particularly thank the ones who are with us in the gallery today. Your willingness to make the ultimate sacrifice on our behalf is something that all of us are deeply appreciative of.

I would also like to extend sympathies on behalf of myself and my constituents to all of those families across Canada who suffered the terrible tragedy of having a loved one not return from the wars that have taken place. For my own family, my grandfather, who I am named after, served twice, in World I and in World War II. I also had uncles on my mother's side who served in World War II. We were very fortunate that they all came back physically healthy.

There were obviously a lot of issues that returning veterans had to deal with over the years. I know in particular from my grandfather's perspective, who did serve in the trenches in World War I, it was a horrific experience. Yet again, he was willing to risk the ultimate sacrifice and go back and serve in World War II. I know there were many veterans that made the same choice on our behalf, and we are eternally grateful for their willingness to make that sacrifice and to put forward the effort that allows us to enjoy the freedom that we enjoy today.

I would also indicate that our family was a net beneficiary. One of my uncles brought back a war bride. A great number of individuals came to Canada as a result of some of the horrible actions that took place, and we are a better country for that, I believe.

In closing, I would like to extend again gratitude to those that are currently serving in peace-keeping missions and around the world and have once again made their decision to be prepared to stand and sacrifice for their country. I would just say to all of the veterans with us and all of the families of the veterans across Canada that we will not forget the sacrifice that you were willing to make on our behalf, and we will be eternally grateful. Thank you.

Mr. Conrad Santos (Wellington): This is another instance, an example of co-operation in this House when shared values are involved. This resolution received unanimous support from both sides of the House.

I am inclined to ask why is it that some people live and some people die when a war comes around? The answer is in Solomon's word, when he said, "The race is not always to the swift nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise nor wisdom to the man of skill, but time and chance happen to them all." So it is a matter of chance whether you live or you die.

That chance not only occurs in the front field of battle. It also occurs in the ordinary life of a person who lives in a community. You never know when you will live or you will die.

The question is why do we honour those who are dead now, the veterans who are dead, who happen to be not favoured by chance. The answer is because they have given up themselves for others. No love is greater than this that a man lay down his life for another. If there is any love greater than that, I do not know it.

So that is why we honour those who have died for us that we may enjoy the benefits of freedom and choice and civilization. All the good things that we now enjoy we owe to those who lay down their life for us, for the great love, the greatest love of all.

What do we say to those who are still alive, to those who are still around? What do we say to them? Again, we will quote with Solomon, "Go, eat your bread with joy and drink your wine with a merry heart and live with your wife whom you love all the good days of your life." This is the message and we should be able to understand this.

War is a horrible thing, but it is with us since the beginning of history. It is man's inhumanity to man. But then that is overcome by that love for others, by giving up and sacrificing oneself. Thank you.

Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): I, too, would like to congratulate the House for the unanimous support, apparently, to the bill that is before us today: Celebration of the 60th Anniversary of V-E Day. I just want to add my congratulations to the unanimity of the action before this House in bringing this forward and speaking to it today.

I just wanted to say, Mr. Speaker, that as Member for Arthur-Virden it is my privilege to be able to be here today in the House on behalf of the citizens of my part of the province, the part that I represent in Arthur-Virden as well as others have done, to congratulate those who, if you can call it a congratulations, gave their lives as the ultimate sacrifice in World War II, and in other wars. But in this case it is the Second World War.

Mr. Speaker, I want to make particular personal reference to the citizens in the community that I grew up in, in Elgin. I did get to know many of the veterans who were fortunate enough to be the ones that returned from the war, and became very good friends with many of those. Of course, two of them were my uncles, Gilbert Maguire and Raymond Maguire, and I just want to pay tribute to those two fine gentlemen as well in this House today and bring respect to their families as well.

My neighbour ended up being a Hong Kong veteran, or was a Hong Kong veteran. For some time, we used to visit with him on the farm, golf with him occasionally, and also discuss some of the issues that he experienced during those brutal years of concentration camps. Mr. Speaker, Mr. Mac Hall was that individual. I went on to farm his land and we remained and were very good friends until natural causes of age took his life as well, here in Manitoba.

Mr. Speaker, I would just like to close by saying that the museum in Elgin is a war memorial museum. If anyone has the opportunity to see it at some time, it is a small community, but has a lot of heart. A lot of hard effort has been brought into that museum and certainly a great deal of memorabilia is there and available to citizens of southwest Manitoba and all Manitobans and the world to see. I commend the people that have put that memorial together as well.

So Mr. Speaker, I just want to close by saying that it is a privilege and an honour to be able to speak to this bill today because it has been 60 years since the end of the war, since V-E Day in 1945. I think that it is incumbent upon us that are left in society today to make sure that we never forget those who did provide the ultimate sacrifice so that we can have the freedoms that we have today. Thank you.

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Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): I would like to add a few words of appreciation to the veterans who are with us today, and those across the country who did make the sacrifice to stand up on behalf of what they believed was right and certainly express respect and sincere thanks to everything that they did and especially to their colleagues who fell.

There is one important lesson that I like to always remind my children, and whenever I have a chance to speak to classrooms about this, that is that I come from a generation that has been absolutely privileged because of what they did.

Mr. Speaker: Before putting the question, I would like to take the opportunity to introduce the veterans that we do have in the gallery.

I would like to recognize Norm Van Tassel and his wife Lynne Van Tassel, Keith Bratly and his wife Mary Bratly, and Gordon Criggar.

On behalf of all honourable members, I want to welcome you and also, on behalf of all honourable members, to say thank you.

Is the House ready for the question?

An Honourable Member: Question.

Mr. Speaker: The question before the House is Resolution 2, Celebration of the 60th Anniversary of V-E Day.

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the resolution? [Agreed]

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I would like to have it recorded that this is agreed to unanimously.

Mr. Speaker: It shall be recorded that this resolution has been agreed to unanimously.

The hour being past twelve o'clock, we will now recess and we will reconvene at 1:30 p.m.