LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF
Tuesday,
June 6, 2006
The House met at 10 a.m.
PRAYER
Introduction of Guests
Mr. Speaker: Prior to private members' business, I would like to draw the attention of honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us from Lavallee Centre Adult English as a Second Language 35 students under the direction of Ms. Colleen Donovan. This group is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Labour and Immigration (Ms. Allan).
On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
Bill 212–The Historic
Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac
du Bonnet): I move, seconded by the Member for
Motion presented.
Mr. Hawranik: I welcome the opportunity to present this bill on behalf of the constituents of Lac du Bonnet, and, in fact, we have support not only from the Lac du Bonnet constituency but every municipality along Highway 44, as it currently is known, for this bill by way of a resolution or a letter from every municipal council that fronts along Highway 44.
The Provincial Trunk
Highway 44 was the
There is a bit of an issue, and I talked
to the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Lemieux) about it yesterday; there is an
issue that he feels that perhaps it was not called the
Also, I did some research, Mr. Speaker, in
terms of the history books of the area. I looked at the Rural Municipality of
Whitemouth history book, written in the early 1970s. Just after, it was turned
into Provincial Trunk Highway 40 and 44 in later years. I can tell you that the
history books of the R.M. of Whitemouth called it the
I have had a number of discussions with municipalities which front on Provincial Trunk Highway 44. I want to put on the record some of the comments made by the municipalities, and the Chamber of Commerce in Beausejour where they said: first of all, the Chamber of Commerce in Beausejour indicates that they support the private member's bill to designate Provincial Trunk Highway 44 as The Historic Trans-Canada Highway Act. They believe that it would assist in attracting tourist traffic to our area which would benefit all of our businesses, as well as the entire community. Mr. Speaker, I table this letter by the Chamber of Commerce.
Then we go to the Rural
Municipality of Springfield, indicating that at their April 5, 2005, council
meetings they, in fact, indicated that the rural municipality supports the
designation of Provincial Trunk Highway 44 as the
Then I have a resolution,
Mr. Speaker, from the Rural Municipality of St. Clements. I would hope that the
Member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) would support this bill, and I think he probably
would. I think he will. It is a resolution from one of his municipalities
within his constituency. It indicates that it resolved that council support the
proposal of Gerald Hawranik, MLA, and designated Provincial Trunk Highway 44 as
the
Next, I turn to the Rural
Municipality of Reynolds, which is, in fact, in the Transportation Minister's
(Mr. Lemieux) constituency, dated May 24, 2005. They passed a resolution, a
unanimous resolution indicating that council in the Rural Municipality of Reynolds
supports the private member's bill proposed by myself designating Provincial
Trunk Highway 44 as the
* (10:10)
As I mentioned earlier, Mr. Speaker, I, in fact, have had resolutions and letters of support from every municipality within which Provincial Trunk Highway 44 traverses. I point to the Rural Municipality of Whitemouth, which is largely within the constituency of Lac du Bonnet, and they indicate that it was dealt with at the May 11, '05, council meeting. They are interested in pursuing any opportunities that can help promote tourism within the municipality and they are in support of the re-designation.
They passed a resolution on May 11, 2005,
that the council and Rural Municipality of Whitemouth supports the private
member's bill designating Provincial Trunk Highway 44 as the
Next, I point to the Rural Municipality of
Brokenhead. I have another resolution, Mr. Speaker, and it has been resolved by
the Rural Municipality of Brokenhead that they support the private member's
bill to designate Provincial Trunk Highway 44 as the
Also, and the last but not least, the town
of
So there are many good reasons why we
would support this private member's bill. Municipalities recognize Provincial
Trunk Highway 44 as the
It formed a very important part of our
national highway system. Our nation was forged by the railway linking the west
coast with the east coast, but as part of
Mr. Speaker, by 1929 the
It served therefore from
1929 to 1956, a total of 27 years, as part of our Trans-Canada Highway, but
from 1929 to 1936, a total of seven years, it was a gravel-surfaced roadway. So
it played an important part in our national transportation system in moving
goods right throughout
So I would hope that members opposite would support this private member's bill.
Mr. Andrew Swan (Minto): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to get up and talk about Bill 212
today. It is a wonderful chance to get up and talk about our highways,
especially as summer in
Certainly I am pleased to
talk about Highway 44, which is a wonderful highway through the eastern part of
our province. Indeed, if I was going to call it anything, I think as an urban
dweller who enjoys getting out to the country, I would call it a highway of
good times. That is the case all the way from the junction with Highway 9 in
Indeed, if you travel this highway,
whichever way from east to west or west to east, there is an awful lot of
interest and a lot of excitement along this route. Right at the western limit
of the highway, of course, there used to be old Wet 'n' Wild Waterslide Park, which
I understand has been closed down, but right there, of course, is Skinner's.
Skinner's is a restaurant which is a true icon for just about anybody who grew
up in
Of course, you cross the floodway, you can
go and see the area where the floodway spills into the
Of course, there is the town of
Of course, Beausejour is an interesting town to go to court because they actually have a collection of inhabitants who find court to be a very, very interesting place to go. If you are a lawyer who happens to come out from the city, you can expect to be rated by the jury, as they are known, who sit across the back of the courthouse in Beausejour.
From the town of
As you continue on Highway 44, you go past
the town of
You continue on to
It truly is a wonderful highway. I should
mention that it has been a highway that for me has been somewhat bipartisan. I
enjoyed driving out to Beausejour with the Member for
Indeed, I should comment, on the bipartisan front, that I have driven wonderful Highway 44 with none other than the Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. McFadyen), the Leader of the Official Opposition, as we went out camping in Nopiming Provincial Park. We did not talk of politics. We did speak of some of our good times at Silver Heights Collegiate. We spoke about Ralph Milton, the big fellow, our band trips with Jim MacKay and many other good things. So, certainly, not only is this the highway of good times, for me it has been a highway of perhaps learning from some of my political kin and having some good discussions.
* (10:20)
It is not just a good highway; it is a
great highway. Indeed, it was certainly designated as Highway 1, but,
unfortunately, everything that I have read suggests that, in fact, it was never
actually designated the
I have heard what the Member for Lac du
Bonnet (Mr. Hawranik) has had to say, but I have done some of my own research.
Unlike the Leader of the Liberal Party, I will actually cite my sources for the
research that I have done. I did know this fact before, but I did look it up
today and just confirmed it with Wikipedia that, indeed, the
I did search a very fascinating Web site
called "the history of intercontinental bus service in
So I think we can agree
Winnipeg-Beausejour-Whitemouth-Rennie all lie upon wonderful Highway 44. But
then this goes on to say that Greyhound had later shifted this operation to the
faster Winnipeg-Richer-Hadashville-Falcon Lake-Kenora route via the new
I have no doubt that the Member for Lac du
Bonnet (Mr. Hawranik) is correct. This was signed as Highway 1, I am sure for
some time, but unfortunately it was never actually designated as the
I know we are all a little bit sensitive about history. I know that oftentimes the opposition members are not so interested in history. Being one of the few caucus members who is not a former teacher, I will not give the standard lecture about what the Tories wanted to do to History in our schools because I think I would like to keep on a positive tone because the Member for Lac du Bonnet has proposed something which I am sure has some interest in his community.
I look at Veterans Highway, Highway 8,
which I also consider to be a highway of good times. Any highway that leads to
Gimli has to be a highway of good times. There was not a bill to do that. There
was some discussion and appropriate designation of that highway. I look forward
to hearing from the Member for Lac du Bonnet on how we can properly title
Highway 44, because it was never the
Because of what I have told you, I think I could support naming this highway something which would actually reflect its roots. I am sure my friend, the Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway), will likely go on to some of the other things that have been done in Lac du Bonnet. I might even support this bill as it is presently stated if it meant we would not hear anything more about the Member for Lac du Bonnet on various issues in the constituency because there has been so much that has already been provided.
There is not time, as my light is blinking, to read into the record everything that this government, which governs for all Manitobans, has done for the residents of Lac du Bonnet. But I will wrap it up there simply to encourage the member–who, as I have indicated, I enjoyed, who bought me lunch in Beausejour, and that is something–to start over, to continue working with his community, find a name which accurately depicts this wonderful and historic highway and come back and let us find something that can truly work.
As a lover of Highway 44, but also someone who respects history, it would not be hard to convince me, over another plate of perogies and kulbassa, to name it something which truly reflects and will for all future generations truly indicate the importance of this wonderful highway in the province of Manitoba. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Cliff Cullen (
I certainly have had the opportunity to travel that highway a number of times. I think the first time was back when I worked for Acre in the pesticide-container-disposal program I had a chance to travel to the east side of the province quite a number of times. More recently, of course, with the Member for Minto (Mr. Swan), we were able to get out to Lac du Bonnet to see the Member for Lac du Bonnet there in part of our Healthy Kids, Healthy Futures Task Force. Most recently for me was a trip out to Lac du Bonnet this past January, February, I guess it was, where the Lac du Bonnet fire department was hosting the provincial firefighters curling bonspiel there. It was another opportunity to travel Highway 44, Mr. Speaker.
Canadians have always
been a nation of trail builders. We have used our waterways. We have used
trails and the railway for travel. Clearly, Mr. Speaker, we know Highway 44 was
part of the original provincial trunk highway. It was part of the national
highway system in
I think when we stop and we talk about recognizing any highway as part of a historic route, what it does is it reflects on the dedicated work of engineers and the builders and the people that actually slaved away and did the work on the highway itself. I think it is time that we stop and recognize some of those pioneers that really put a lot of the work together.
The other thing I think we want to do when we put a special name on certain highways, what it does is it will hopefully heighten the tourism trade for that particular area, and I know, if Provincial Trunk Highway 44 was named as the Historic Trans-Canada Highway, there would certainly be a development of tourism in the area. I think that would certainly help the economic status of those communities along Highway 44.
I think the other thing, too, is when we do put a name of significance on these individual highways, it maybe puts a little more onus on the provincial government to maintain and look after those provincial highways. We know that there certainly is a lack of investment in our provincial highways these days, so I think, in this case, if we were to rename Provincial Trunk Highway 44 as the Historic Trans-Canada, there would be ongoing investment in that particular highway.
I do thank the Member for Lac du Bonnet
(Mr. Hawranik) for allowing me to speak on this particular bill. I think
he does recognize that I do have the existing
I do want to commend the emergency service personnel that are stationed in those communities because they are called out onto our highways on a fairly regular basis, because we recognize there are some serious upgrades that have to be done on, in particular, No. 1, as well as a number of highways in the south. So I hope the minister will take note and recognize some of the significant development that should be done in some of the key intersections along Highway No. 1 that hopefully will lead to less fatalities in those particular areas.
Another important trail, although not a highway,
is the Trans Canada Trail, which crisscrosses across a good chunk of
I do also want to talk a little bit about
another particular highway that runs through
* (10:30)
The whole idea behind
naming this particular route the
So it is very unfortunate that all the work that the people of Turtle Mountain and the area of No. 5 have gone through to try and develop a parks route to enhance tourism for western Manitoba has really been to the detriment of this government, has really held the tourism trade back in Manitoba. So that is rather unfortunate, but we hope the government will continue to invest money in that area, and hopefully we can develop that particular roadway so we can have an effective parks route for tourism in western Manitoba.
The Red Coat Trail is
another significant highway, if you will, that has been named in
I just want to briefly
mention another significant trail, if you will. It has been talked about and
commemorated here in
So clearly, there are some significant
highways that have been recognized in
Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Transportation and Government Services): It gives me great pleasure to stand to talk about his particular bill. Where to start? First of all I would like to begin by just saying with regard to transportation overall, Mr. Speaker, I know there are many speakers who want to discuss this particular topic, and I will try to be brief and to the point.
The provincial government this year has put unprecedented amounts of money into Transportation, $257 million, which is a historic amount, approximately $29 million more than last year into Transportation, and there are many projects and many roads and bridges that will benefit as a result.
To give you a comparison, in pre-election, the budget of 1999, the previous government, Conservative government, had a budget of $174 million with regard to capital, preservation and winter roads. Our comparative is that we currently are putting in $257 million, which is approximately $83 million more per year than then.
Now, having said that, we are continuing
to make progress on additional dollars to Transportation. The members opposite
have heard me through Estimates make comments about how they have an important
role to play here. I know the Member for
Just to address this bill in particular, I
know that the MLA for Lac du Bonnet should get some credit for this, quite
frankly, because he has been working very hard with the municipalities along
Highway No. 44 to try to get it designated. There has been some
controversy over this road over a number of years because of the official
designation, as was rightly pointed out by my good friend and hardworking MLA
for Minto, who did his research and determined that this particular stretch of
road did have the No. 1 designation, but it did not have the Trans-Canada
designation, as far as we know. That is what our research is telling us. I
mentioned to the MLA for Lac du Bonnet that we would be looking into and
determining whether or not it really did have the designation as the
What we are told is that the PTH 44 was
never designated as the
I just want to comment that there have been a number of different organizations, including the East-Man Regional Development corporation, the Eastern Manitoba Tourism Association, who have been trying to have this particular stretch of road renamed. There have been a number of people and organizations, as the two previously mentioned, who wanted it named the Yellowhead route, for example. Currently, mile zero is at The Forks. Many of these organizations would like to see that continuation over No. 44, through Beausejour, all the way through Whitemouth to West Hawk and call it the Yellowhead. The Yellowhead organization does not want that designation to go past The Forks, and they made it quite clear to anyone who would listen. So we are left with a dilemma.
This particular road is a road of historic and heritage importance, I believe. The MLA for Lac du Bonnet should be congratulated for this, for taking this initiative and working very closely with a number of different organizations, whether it is Beausejour District Chamber of Commerce, whether it is the R.M. of Brokenhead, or the communities of Whitemouth and other communities, or the Municipality of St. Clements and others, who feel that something should be done with this particular road.
As I mentioned off the record, which I will put on the record today, to the MLA for Lac du Bonnet was that I felt that we should be able to sit down and talk and discuss and actually do a little bit more research to determine what is the real designation of this particular road. As we speak, I have officials in my department doing research to determine whether indeed it was actually just designated No. 1, or did it have the Trans-Canada designation.
* (10:40)
So we need to be accurate. The federal
government and other organizations do not like to have overlapping naming. For
example, when we were looking to recognize our veterans by calling certain
highways memorial highways,
Part of this particular route 44 is called the La Vérendrye Trail, and we want to make sure that whatever we do with regard to this particular stretch of road and highway that we are accurate, first of all, in that whatever we do in the naming of it will last there forever. As the MLA for Minto and others have mentioned, we are going back into the records looking now back into the twenties, thirties, forties and fifties to determine what it was named. We want to make sure that we do it right.
So I ask and plead with the MLA for Lac du Bonnet that we have the opportunity to sit down together to discuss and do more research to determine what we can do to name this particular stretch of road. I would be supportive of sitting down with him and possibly the MLA for Selkirk, who also has Highway 44 going through his constituency, part of 44 goes through the constituency of La Vérendrye. So I would ask that that take place, that we do the proper research, we sit down and are agreeable to be able to make some announcement together.
Certainly, if there is any credit to be given, the MLA for Lac du Bonnet should absolutely receive any credit. There should be no doubt about this because he is the gentleman, he is the person who has brought this forward. He has worked very hard to do it. All we are saying is we want to be accurate in what we do with regard to the naming.
The advice we currently
have is that it is in dispute with naming of the
So I am asking that we sit down and we reserve decision on the particular naming until we can be accurate. We sit down over the summer and in the fall we come back to be able to make sure that whatever designation is in place that we are able to do it in a proper way. I will be the first one to be applauding the MLA for Lac du Bonnet for bringing this forward. We all agree with that, or maybe the MLA for Selkirk also as well. I would ensure that the MLA for Selkirk would be very close behind in the accolades.
So this is not something I am saying that we should not pass today because we are unsure of the proper designation, Mr. Speaker. What we need to do is we need to do more research. Now I talked to the MLA for Lac du Bonnet about this just recently, saying let us be accurate about what we are doing. So the department is currently doing that, and we would ask that we sit down and work together to be able to do that. If it is credit we are talking about, then there is plenty of credit to go around, but certainly the MLA for Lac du Bonnet would receive the lion's share.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for allowing me to speak on this particular issue, and I would just ask that the MLA for Lac du Bonnet work with us and we will work with him as well. Thank you.
Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson):
Mr. Speaker, I certainly want to commend the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr.
Hawranik) for having the foresight and the vision to bring this kind of
legislation to the House. I think we far too often neglect to remember and to
give proper recognition to those that have been here before us. I think those
pioneers that came to
I think that all that the Member for Lac du Bonnet is suggesting is that we put into perpetuity by naming a roadway and a route that was used by those that came from eastern Canada and those early settlers that used that route to open up the West, and Highway 44, which was not named Highway 44 at the time, certainly was that historic route. When you travel and familiarize yourself with the whole eastern part of the province of Manitoba–especially the southern part of Manitoba, the Lake of the Woods, how important Lake of the Woods was to the transportation of goods into this part of the province, the trail ways that still exist in southeast Manitoba out of Lake of the Woods area, and how the railways were designated–all, I think, become part of that historic mosaic that we need to, at some point in time, make recognition of and ensure that those memories will not be lost.
Therefore, I think the designation of Highway 44 as the Historic Trans-Canada Highway is a very appropriate naming, first of all, and secondly, very appropriate and timely that the recognition be given to those pioneers that, indeed, opened up the province of Manitoba.
I know the minister of highways is somewhat hesitant about giving that recognition in passing this bill, and so is the government side of the NDP party, are certainly indicating that they are not willing to pass this bill today. However, I think the only reason they do not want to pass this bill is simply because they are remiss in not having brought forward this kind of legislation before. I think they want to then probably redraft a bill that they want to take credit for in the fall of the year and bring before this House and take the credit for naming this bill, even though the minister stood proudly in the House today as minister of highways, as he should, and recognized the minister for having brought this issue to the floor of the House, yet did not go all the way and said, we will stand and support this bill. He did not say that, and I think that is, again, an indication that the NDP are somewhat maybe a bit hesitant about supporting this bill, because they would have liked to have brought it themselves and therefore, do not be too surprised, Mr. Speaker, that–
An Honourable Member: We are not like that.
Mr. Penner: The Minister of Water Stewardship (Mr. Ashton) said, well, we are not like that.
Well, they have demonstrated too often during debates in this House on bills, amendments that we have brought forward, as we did again yesterday, bringing six amendments forward to the transportation act that we debated in committee. Not one of those amendments were accepted, although they were exactly what the minister described in his own comments to the amendments, exactly the way the department operates now. And yet they refused to amend the bill to accommodate the procedural application of a piece of legislation that, hopefully, will be used appropriately.
However, I want to put a few comments on the record about some of our other routings and roadways in the province of Manitoba. I think the changes that have happened over the last hundred years or so in this province, I think, truly are a demonstration of those pioneers and the diversity that those pioneers brought to this province. The City of Winnipeg, I think, is clearly an indication, a prime example of how a diversified population, coming from various historic backgrounds, brought a wealth of knowledge to this city and to this province to utilize those ideas and different concepts to build a historic city. I believe this is truly the gateway to the west, the city of Winnipeg, as it has always been. The grain trade has always been headquartered here.
* (10:50)
However, I believe we are in jeopardy of losing it because of some of the philosophical ideas that this NDP government holds so strongly, and they need to relax a bit and accept that change is inevitable, that change must happen and that we must encourage change. I think Highway 75 or the Trans Canada route association or the Trans Canada routing of No. 1 highway, Highway 16 are all a demonstration of how the changes have been applied and where our goods are travelling now.
Highway 75, when you look at the routing to the south of us, it is a direct line out of the city of Winnipeg into the city of Mexico City, and I believe truly all the areas within the midwestern United States that that routing serves are clearly an indication as to where out future lies. Those are our customers for the goods that we produce in this province and in this city. They are our customers that we should keep our doors open to. They are the customers we serve, whether it is through truck-routing traffic or through railways or indeed using the waterways of the Great Lakes or the Mississippi River, and the Missouri River to some extent, to get our goods into the ports of the world, and indeed, on land directly to Mexico City and the Central American countries.
I believe we have a great opportunity, but I also know that the state of our Highway 75 in this province as it sits today is clearly an indication that this government has paid no attention to what is the reality of the needs of that industrialized community in this province of Manitoba to get their product to the marketplace.
Highway 10, south of Brandon, again
another indication of how this government, this NDP government, has neglected
to keep up those transportation routes to the south to allow a city such as
Brandon the kind of growth potential that it has as has been demonstrated many
times, the expansion of the pork processing industry in that city. I find it
interesting that this government in the city of
I think it is important to note, Mr. Speaker, in conclusion, that we need a group of progressive thinkers in this Legislature. We need a group of business-oriented thinkers in this group to recognize the opportunities to play on the potential to develop our routings, and indeed the naming of Highway 44 would be a clear indication that this government is in fact in tune with reality, recognizing our historic past, recognizing our potential and making sure that the monies that they spend on transportation are in fact directed in such a way that it will keep our export routes open and clearly indicate to the rest of the world that we are open for business and want to be open for business. I would encourage the NDP government of the day to make every effort to put a lot more money into our transportation routing to ensure the viability of the industries that depend on that routing. Thank you.
Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I am very pleased today to rise on Bill 212, The Historic Trans-Canada Highway Act, sponsored by the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Hawranik).
Mr. Speaker, I want to say at the outset
that while this member is out trying to name highways, we are actually out
building highways. The
This member, Mr. Speaker, likes to criticize the government for the debt. He fails to recognize the magnitude of investments that this government has made in infrastructure in the last six years, a lot of which are committed to his own riding. You would think he would take the time to give the government credit for building worthwhile projects in his riding. As a matter of fact, I can tell you that this government has put in his riding $2.4 million for clean water and wastewater treatment projects, $342,000 for a wastewater treatment plant in the R.M. of Alexander, half a million for a wastewater treatment project in Tyndall-Garson, another $95,000 for a clean water project in Beausejour, another $1.3 million for a clean water project in Lac du Bonnet, $99,000 for a clean water project in Whitemouth.
Does he ever stand up and give the government credit for building these things? No. When he is in the constituency, he is busy taking credit for these items. When he is in the Legislature, he is busy criticizing the government for the debt, that the debt is going up. So he wants the projects. He just does not want to pay for them. Now, that is not very honest, Mr. Speaker. The member should wipe the slate clean here and in his next speech before the House give credit where credit is due.
Mr. Speaker, we have spent $12.4 million in
new schools and school upgrades since 1999, $6.2 million for the Beausejour
Early Years replacement school, $1.1 million in upgrades to the
Mr. Speaker, in the area of the health
care in his riding, we spent $11.3 million in the
Now, Mr. Speaker, these are, in fact, not
even a complete list of all the projects that we have completed in his
constituency. The minister reported that this budget, the 2006 budget, had a
record of $257 million for road construction in
Mr. Speaker, we have a
federal Conservative government now in
So, Mr. Speaker, I would
suggest that the members opposite use their good offices with their federal
counterparts in
Hon. Jon Gerrard (
* (11:00)
Mr. Speaker: Order.
When this matter is again
before the House, the honourable Member for
The hour being 11 a.m., we will now move on to Resolutions.
Res. 14–Improving
Democratic Accountability through All-Party Legislative Screening
of Provincial Appointments
Hon. Jon Gerrard (
WHEREAS new government appointments to various boards including those of Crown Corporations are critical to the success of the operations of these boards and the operations of Crown Corporations; and
WHEREAS Crown Corporations are intended to serve the public interest with separation from the politics of government management; and
WHEREAS governing parties have, in the past, used the power of appointment for political patronage rather than public interest; and
WHEREAS the public interest is best served by appointing community leaders and citizens with qualifications appropriate to the mandate of Crown Corporations.
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Provincial Government to consider all major provincial government appointments be fully screened by an All-Party Legislative Committee before appointments are confirmed.
Motion presented.
Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, after several years of presenting this resolution, I finally get to speak to it and it is good to have that opportunity. The NDP work quite hard to limit debate sometimes, but we have finally this year got enough private members' business time that we have been able to get this on the agenda.
What I want to say, Mr. Speaker, is this. We have had major problems under the NDP, and before that under the Tories, with political appointees to a whole variety of boards. It is time to have proper screening by an all-party legislative committee of appointments to major Crown corporations and to boards. This is our point, that it is important to get quality people with the appropriate qualifications and to have those qualifications appropriately screened by an all-party committee.
I would hope that in this effort we will have the support of the Conservatives and of the NDP. So with that introduction, with those comments, I will sit down and let the others speak.
Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, on the surface, the presentation by the Leader of the
Liberal Party, the independent member, would appear to be on a sound footing,
talking about the depoliticization of appointments within government. But when
you consider what has occurred over recent years in parts, some of the
I would be interested to know how he believes that he can see the attitude changing, with the current government that talks about they made their appointment to the Crocus board, and then they pretend that they do not know that person, they never see that person again, they cannot even remember his name most times.
As a matter of fact, when asked to list the representatives on the Crocus board, I think the minister accidentally or intentionally left out at least one name who, in my understanding, performed a role on behalf of government in representation on the Crocus board. At the same time we see last night government trying to put through rules. It would seem almost to distance itself from the actions of the Crown corporations where the Premier (Mr. Doer) made a point of talking about how the presidents of the corporations, the Crown corporations, are indeed professional. I would agree. They operate independently under the direction of the board, but then he conveniently forgot to discuss the fact that, I think without exception, the chairs of the boards of our Crown corporations have a significant political connection, You know, when you look at the fact, the chairman of Hydro, I believe, has a pretty significant political record.
If I were to remember correctly, the chairman of Manitoba Public Insurance, while someone that I do not know as more than a passing acquaintance, has certainly had significant involvement with the party. I remember that particular appointment showing up in my office at one time on behalf of an organization and indicating very strongly how she thought the world should unfold on behalf of that organization. While that is certainly her right, I suspect that she had had contact with the then-opposition in order to put her thoughts together about what she actually thought should have been happening within the area of the responsibility that she was lobbying on behalf of. At least that certainly would have appeared to have been the backdrop.
Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair
Mr. Chairman, I mean Mr.
Speaker, Mr. Deputy Speaker–I will get it right eventually. Mr. Deputy Speaker,
I want to point out that when the vetting of these appointments would come
forward, I wonder if the Member for
But there is some significant value in having a public vetting of the qualifications of people who would be appointed to these jobs.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, when I look at what has happened over the years, and we have seen the complete, I would suggest, complete disintegration of the responsibility of government in the most recently deceased federal government relative to appointment, the intermixing of appointments and political responsibility, party responsibility, it all became very murky and very ill-defined and people forgot what their responsibility was. They forgot that they were not there simply to provide support and background to the government of the day. They were there in fact to provide management of significant taxpayers' dollars.
I do not know whether the Member for River Heights may have actually felt the sting of some of these appointments from his years in Ottawa, but the confusion of the roles of board members, particularly board chairs, are they really arm's length or are they going to become more of a situation where they report to this legislature? That is something that I assume is not a model that the member is putting forward because, in the end, the Crown corporations will follow the appointment back and take advantage of their opportunity's appointment to make sure that they are within the general direction of the government of the day.
And so, in vetting the names and the opportunities that are being put forward for these appointments, I think the member should keep in mind that ultimately those appointments will remain in place if they are within the general direction of the government, and the majority government will still have the opportunity to make that happen whether this committee vets the appointment or not.
* (11:10)
Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would like to hear comments from across the way because it seems to me that there is some logic to taking a look at this method of vetting appointments. But the actions that I have seen recently from the current government does not give me a warm feeling as to whether or not they would embrace a discussion of their appointments because, I must admit, that I have spent, frankly, a number of hours going round and round the issue of whether or not the current head of the Manitoba economic development committee within the Department of Industry is, in fact, a political appointment or an esteemed civil servant or a servant of the Premier (Mr. Doer) or whether he reports in the Department of Industry or whether he, in fact, might be the contact between Crocus, Workers Compensation Board, Teachers' Retirement Allowance Fund and Manitoba Public Insurance; all of those issues raised and very few answers given.
So, I look forward to hearing some debate from the government, and having received the signal that we are now within a couple of minutes of wrapping up my comments, I would suggest that whoever gets up on the side of the government should consider carefully their words in the light of what I just said about their unwillingness to share comments, and a line of authority that flows widely through their government today. Does it all flow to the Premier's office only or are the ministers out there actually accountable for the departments and the Crown agencies that report to them?
Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood):
I am once again pleased to speak to the private member's resolution sponsored
by the Member for
Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would like to indicate that our party and our government actually have gone a long way over the years to take the politics out of the governing process. I might remind the previous speaker, long before he was a member of this House, which is for 20 years now, I can tell you that the Schreyer government in the 1970s introduced the bill to allow provincial civil servants to run for office and be involved in politics. Prior to that time, you could not do that in Manitoba. You had to be quiet and not run or not be involved in political parties.
I tell you right now, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that occasionally I run into people on a door-to-door basis during my travels, and it is federal civil servants who tell me that they are not allowed, federal civil servants, are not allowed to participate in any political activity. I am thinking of Revenue Canada employees as being one. So here we have a provincial government, who 30 years ago changed the legislation to allow civil servants to be active, and 30 years later the federal government still does not have these same rules.
Now, Mr. Deputy Speaker, whether I agree with these changes or moves is immaterial, but I will tell you that when this government formed office six years ago, it did not do what previous governments had done. Previous governments have had a history of getting rid of people who worked, certainly the political appointments, but civil servants as well. This government did not do that. As a matter of fact, six years later, we have Conservative appointees still sitting on some of our boards. We have actually appointed a number of Liberals, and I will get to that later. Just to apprise the member of how many of his own–the member has more of his former candidates and confederates on government boards than he has as candidates that are sitting in this House. So he is having a lot more success than even he realized.
So what we did was we did not do a wholesale change of people when we formed the government, like Sterling Lyon did back in 1977. In fact, Mr. Deputy Speaker, returning officers, who every MLA in this House are very familiar with the role that they can play in your elections–I know a lot of members have complaints about the way elections are run, the way their returning officers handle the situation. It was this government that took away the right of the governing party to appoint returning officers, and that is another step towards depoliticizing the process.
But I might tell you, if anyone believes that all the returning officers do not have political bones in their body, you know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, you have another think coming here. The returning officers today, even though they are not appointed by the government in power and have a more non-political process for appointment and a more permanent system, even they will have some ideas about how things should be run that may, in fact, impact negatively on certain people, at least from a perception point of view.
So, Mr. Deputy Speaker,
this resolution talks about major boards. The Member for
Some of them are free appointments. There is no remuneration at all involved in a number of these appointments, and I know that we go to great effort to make certain that the people have a background in the area, some sort of expertise in the area of what the board covers. So if that means appointing people who happen to be Liberals or Conservatives or who have a connection to the NDP, well, that is what happens. But I have not heard the members opposite making criticisms of those board appointments. Rarely in the last six years has there been any criticism of board appointments. Likewise under the previous government, I do not recall us, in opposition, making major criticisms.
So, you see, there is the self-governing checking process at work here, where the government, before it makes the appointment, tries to gauge what the reaction may be by the media, by the public and particularly by the opposition. If a government is going to make an appointment, it has to think twice about what the opposition are going to say because if we make a bad appointment, we are basically losers because the opposition will make a lot of hay out of it. So the system has worked fairly well, but, having said that, we have been and are moving towards a more apolitical process.
For example, Mr. Deputy
Speaker, we have introduced The Elections Act reforms. As a matter of fact, we
were in committee last night. The reforms are based on greater access, greater
transparency and respecting citizen choice. We have removed restrictions from
advanced polling so that anyone can vote in advance for any reason and
increased the number of locations of advanced polls and the days on which they
can be open. We have created super polls in malls so people can vote in advance
at convenient locations. We have extended absentee voting to students and
public employees who are outside the province. We have more dedicated polls
within apartment blocks so residents do not have to leave to vote. We have
smaller voting areas so people do not have to travel far to vote, particularly
in northern
There is greater transparency, Mr. Deputy Speaker. For example, we are requiring elected officials to disclose additional salaries they receive from political parties. We know that has been a practice by some members opposite over the last number of years, particularly their leaders who do not feel the MLA salary is big enough to live on, so that Conservative parties had to, in the case of Sterling Lyon, secretly in those days, give him an extra $50,000 a year, adjusted for inflation. That might be some real money today. When that was discovered, there was a bit of a controversy over that.
* (11:20)
Mr. Deputy Speaker, we are creating an
independent officer to receive and prosecute complaints about election
financing, and many, many other good changes. But I did not want to wind up
without giving some names here for the Member for
So, unlike old governments of the past,
old D.L. Campbell Liberal governments of the past, Conservative governments of
the past who conducted witch hunts, who fired Sterling Lyon, who fired all
kinds of people, right? And then appointed his own. We did not do any of that
at all. As a matter of fact, there are examples in
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please.
Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): It is a pleasure to rise today to speak to this resolution, but, first of all, I want to just comment that we have–and I did not hear this from the Liberal member of this House, I did not hear this from any of the Conservative members in this House, and that is that it is this government, under this Premier (Mr. Doer) that has doubled the amount of time allocated in this Chamber to private members' business.
You know, the Member for
Mr. Deputy Speaker, I was
part of the rules committee which met, and we discussed how we are going to update
the rules. As I said, we have doubled the amount of time allocated to private
members' business. As well, we agreed to allow the independent members the
opportunity to bring forward a resolution such as this which, in years past,
they would not have the chance to do. But you do not hear that from the Liberal
leader or the Member for
At the beginning of this resolution today, the Liberal leader, he got up and he said, well, you know, this is the first time I have had a chance to speak on a private member's bill, or bring forward a private member's resolution in all the years he was here, I believe. He spoke for about one minute and he sat down. He did not explain at all the rationale for this resolution. He did not explain–
An Honourable Member: He is embarrassed.
Mr. Dewar: I agree. He did not give a defence of why we should support it. No explanation, no rationale as to why our government or as a House, members in this Chamber should support his resolution. He talked for one minute and sat down.
Now, as the Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) has said, he is clearly embarrassed by the Liberal record when it comes to this particular matter, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I just want to talk about, as the Member for Elmwood has said, and he has been here now for 20 years and has a wonderful legacy, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in this Chamber, and he was able to explain to the House about when the Sterling Lyon government came in in 1977, and how they did a witch hunt throughout the bureaucracy and fired hundreds and hundreds of people. Then, of course, the people came and they fired him after one term. So they came, and they got rid of Mr. Sterling Lyon after one term.
So, we came into government in '81. We did not do the same thing as what Lyon did, and when we returned to government in 1990, we did not do what the Filmon government did, and that is flush down hundreds and hundreds of people simply, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for partisan purposes, as they did.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, when you look at the Liquor Control Commission, for example, the president is a long-time member of the management team there, Mr. Lussier. He is now the president of the Liquor Control Commission. Bob Brennan is still the chair or the president of Manitoba Hydro, the largest Crown corporation in the province. We did not get rid of him. He was there under the Tories; he is there now under us. Marilyn McLaren is now the president of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. She was, as well, the vice-president for a number of years, worked her way up and now she is the chair. We did not put one of our political hacks in there.
We have a wonderful record when it comes to dealing with this matter of putting in people that have built up their careers, that have merit, not like the Conservatives did when they were in power. Look at the Lotteries Corporation, for example. I cannot think of his name, but he was deputy minister in Intergovernmental Affairs. He then went across, and now he runs the Lotteries Corporation. He was the deputy minister when the Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach), I believe, was rural development minister. [interjection]
Who was your deputy minister? That is right. Thank you. It was Winston Hodgins, and he now is the chair or the president of the Lotteries Corporation, Mr. Deputy Speaker. So, again, we did not get rid of him. [interjection] No, I am just saying, that our point is that we do not. Our point is that we promote people based on merit, not simply partisan purposes. As I said, we could talk a little bit, of course, about the Manitoba Telephone System but regrettably, there is no point, unfortunately.
Well, I will do it anyway because it has been now 10 years since the Filmon government stole that corporation from the citizens of Manitoba in probably the biggest scandal in the history of this province. They sold that off to their corporate buddies, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Wellington West was the lead. I believe, currently, the former Premier Filmon who said he would not sell it prior to the election. Again, 10 years ago I was here in this Chamber when they broke their word and sold that telephone system off to their corporate buddies.
We said at the time, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that rates would go up, jobs would be lost, services would be affected and the head office would move. Now, we have seen three of those four come true: rates have gone up 60-odd percent, I believe, in rural Manitoba and northern Manitoba; jobs have been lost. I just received a letter. It was raised here about a year ago where the remaining jobs in Selkirk are being transferred to Winnipeg. The office that was the head office of the Manitoba Telephone System in Selkirk is now closed down completely, and it is sold off. As I said, service has also been affected, and we do not know about the headquarters. It is hard to say, but there are rumours that the headquarters is going to be moved out of this province as well.
* (11:30)
As the Member for Elmwood
(Mr. Maloway) was saying, both he and I spent a fine evening together last
night listening to public consultations on the changes to The Elections
Finances Act, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We proposed to the opposition, for example,
that they would join us in looking at the public financing of election
campaigns, something I know the Member for
The Member for
We offered up an all-party approach, and the new Leader of the Opposition (Mr. McFadyen) and the Member for Steinbach (Mr. Goertzen), first of all they shook their heads but then they were silent after that. So we do not know where they are going on that, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We are not sure if they are going to accept our approach of an all-party approach to dealing with election financing to find if there is a way to help all of us in public office fund the ever-increasing demands placed upon us to fund our campaigns.
Regrettably, we do not know where they are going to go, but up to now, as I have said, they have been stonewalling the issue. I know the Member for Elmwood has already raised a number of prominent Liberals, Phil Fontaine, of course Terry Duguid, Lloyd Axworthy, of course Ernie Gilroy. I have been working with Ernie on a number of issues related to the floodway expansion, and I think he is doing a fine job on that. He is fairly sensitive to the issues of the–[interjection] Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I rise to speak on this resolution from the MLA
for
I think this is a very interesting topic because on the one hand Crown corporations are often described as being at arm's length from the government, and on the other hand people could easily argue that you need to make Crown corporation at least amenable to government direction. So I thought of a number of scenarios for each party as to how this might actually work. For example, the two largest Crown corporations are Manitoba Hydro and Manitoba Public Insurance and there are government backbenchers on each of these boards. That has been the case, I understand, for a long time.
Now, it could be that the government of
the day might want a Crown corporation to do something, and I think if the
government appoints the board members, then the Crown corporation is probably
going to be more amenable to carrying out the government's wishes. Sometimes
those wishes might take a long time to be put into practice and actually be
carried out. For example, if you are going to build a hydro dam in
Now, I suppose that most of us here have a vested interest because when we retire from this Legislature, we might want to be appointed to an agency, board or commission by our political party, except, of course, the Liberals who have the luxury of being in a third party position. So they can be idealistic and say no, they do not want to be appointed to anything, nor should any Liberal be appointed to anything, and we understand idealism. Our party in the federal Parliament is in a similar position, and that is why we are called the conscience of Parliament because we can take idealistic positions.
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Martindale: No, that is true. I am sure that the Member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck) would agree with me that the NDP at the federal level is called the party of conscience in Parliament. There are good reasons for that, because when you are in a third-party position, you can pick and choose your issues, especially if you do not think you are ever going to form government, which is maybe the predicament that the Liberal Party in the Manitoba Legislature is in. They could be idealistic because they do not have to worry about actually being in government to have to implement their ideas, because I think they would probably change their position overnight or, if they thought they were close to forming government, they might move to the moderate middle in order to moderate their policies or maybe be less idealistic to actually form government.
You know, this is not the first time that we have debated a resolution like this, and I am sorry I was not prepared today. I was actually visiting with my parents who are here visiting from Toronto, and I took some time off this morning, but had I been in caucus this morning before ten o'clock and realized that this resolution was being debated today, I would have run down to the Legislative Reading Room and asked to look up Sharon Carstairs' resolution, which was almost identical when she was a member of this Legislature and she was opposed to all political appointments.
I remember her speech, and I remember heckling her, and I remember how absurd we thought this idea was. Then, lo and behold, she got appointed to the Senate. So the media said, well, what about your position of being opposed to political appointments. How could you introduce a resolution–and I see the Deputy Speaker nodding his head; he remembers this–and speak on it and say you are opposed to political appointments and then you get the plum political appointment, probably the biggest political appointment in Canada, an appointment to the Senate until the age of 75 and all the perks that come with that? And what was Sharon Carstairs' response? Well, I am paraphrasing, but I believe she said: Because it was a good appointment. So she sort of made an exception, I think a rather big exception for herself. So she said one thing in the Legislature, and she had a different rationale, a rationalization or an excuse for accepting the appointment to the Senate.
So perhaps the current members in the
Liberal Party will be similar. They introduce idealistic resolutions in
third-party status, but if they were ever to be government, I think they would
want their people. To use examples, the Member for
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Martindale: Well, it is not always that easy. Let me take another example. Supposing a Conservative government was in office in the future, which, you know, is always a possibility. You never know, one election, two or three elections from now, and supposing there was a farm credit corporation, although I think we rolled it into some other organization and changed its name, but supposing they wanted to lower interest rates for farmers for farm loans or some other thing that they thought was in the best interest of farmers. But supposing they followed this idealistic resolution of the Liberal Party, and they only appointed people that were experts, they were not political appointees, and the board said no, we are not going to do that because we do not believe in it. So you have a problem. How can an independent board with independent people who are not political appointees or not willing to follow suggestions of the government of the day, how could they implement a policy that the government wants implemented? I think that is a problem.
An Honourable Member: I would have a word with
Mr. Martindale: Well,
* (11:40)
Now let me give you another example because I can compare the former Conservative government and the current NDP government, and that is the Social Services Appeal Board. When I was the critic for Family Services, I knew that only 10 percent of people succeeded on appeal under the Conservative government when the Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson) was the minister. Why would that be? Well, maybe it is because they were Conservative appointees, and they were a little, you know, tough on welfare, so they did not allow many appeals. Now under the NDP government with NDP appointees, the percentage of appeals has gone up. Why would that be? Well, maybe it is because we are appointing Aboriginal people and single parents and people who have been on employment income assistance in the past, and they are more sympathetic. So, you know, they are more sympathetic to allowing appeals.
Of course, I think the best example is–and I see my light is flashing–is Manitoba Hydro, where I think the government of the day would like Manitoba Hydro to implement to its policies, and I think that only make sense. Government could be hamstrung if people were not willing and able to carry out the wishes of the government of the day.
Finally, to add to the non-partisan appointees, I nominated a Liberal friend, and the friend was appointed to a major organization in Manitoba because of her expertise, because she had been the equivalent of an executive director of an organization, and even though she was a Liberal and even though I nominated her, she was appointed and she is still there. She served two three-year terms. So we do make exceptions. Other members have alluded to other prominent Liberals who were appointed to agencies, boards or commissions, and I think that is probably a good thing.
So, thank you for the opportunity to put a few remarks on the record about this very idealistic and undoable resolution which they do not even follow in practice, and the best example being Sharon Carstairs, and we all remember how she accepted a patronage appointment after speaking against patronage appointments.
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (
We acknowledge that there are many Liberals that are out there. The issue here, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is that we need to, as much as possible, ensure that there is a screening process that allows for this Legislature to heighten the importance of some of these positions and some of these appointments. The Member for Burrows talked about Manitoba Hydro. One of the appointments is an MLA within this Chamber; the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) is appointed to that particular board, and some might say a good appointment.
Well, what we are suggesting is that there is a justifiable need to allow for a protocol that would allow for these individuals to come before some sort of a formal process that does not deny them the opportunity to be appointed, but it highlights the importance of these different positions, and we see that as a positive thing. And the government should move towards depoliticizing where it can or, at the very least, heightening the awareness. I would welcome to see the list of the thousand-plus appointments that this government has the opportunity to be able to make. Manitobans would benefit by that, I believe.
With those few words, I would like to see this type of resolution not only debated, but ultimately passed, and that is why the Leader of the Liberal Party and myself are keeping our remarks short on this because we want to hear what other members have to say, and hopefully it passes.
Hon. Steve Ashton
(Minister of Water Stewardship): I appreciate that
the Member for
Now, let us not forget, by the way, and I have got a lot of respect for the Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) and the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) as being members of this Legislature, but we have a former federal Cabinet minister and a former federal Liberal candidate here who both ran for a party that stood for patronage, stood for Adscam, stood for cronyism, stood for entitlement. You know, about the only thing missing from this resolution is David Dingwall's picture.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, let us just understand one thing here. I mean, if you ask most Canadians about the federal Liberal Party, and by the way I know a lot of Liberals, I respect a lot of Liberals. Actually, there are not as many as there used to be. Many of them do support us.
I talk to a lot of, actually, pretty well ex-Liberals by now, and if you ask them about one thing that sticks in their craw about the federal Liberal Party over the last number of years, it is that culture of entitlement and the degree to which they did not just practise patronage, they perfected the art. Mr. Deputy Speaker, former Liberal Cabinet ministers making three and four and five hundred thousand dollars heading Crown corporations. There was none of this process in this resolution here about having scrutiny. David Dingwall, what was his qualification? He was a former Liberal Cabinet minister. You know, you look at the–André Ouillet. You look at some of the appointments as ambassadors. They were not just happy appointing people to Crown corporations, the Liberals.
Gagliano. Does anybody
remember Gagliano, Mr. Deputy Speaker? Alphonse Gagliano, I mean, sent off to
You know, there is a great Web site; I would recommend the opposites look at it. Kids for–talking about . . . . I love the part where it says use your mummy's credit card or use your daddy's credit card. I mean, let us face it. The Liberals have not only perfected the art of patronage, but I think for a lot of Canadians the stench of the kind of sleaze that we saw in the last 12 years is one of the reasons why the Liberals are no longer in government federally.
I find it interesting, by
the way, that when you look at this kind of thing, I know it is tough being a
provincial Liberal. I mean it is, because you know when both provincial
Liberals have direct connections to the federal Liberal Party, Mr. Deputy
Speaker, and I think the Member for
But the Liberal democratic party, Mr. Deputy Speaker, he says. I do not know if he is looking at doing a Larry Desjardins, because that is how Larry Desjardins ended up eventually becoming a New Democrat. He understood that connection.
But the reality is that we in this province have, I think, a very good record in terms of boards and commissions, and I would point out we do have a fair amount of balance.
Now, I have worked with
people such as Terry Duguid, a
former Liberal candidate, twice actually, as the head of the Clean Environment
Commission, I think that was, and ran provincially. I still work with Ernie
Gilroy and I do not think, I do not discuss politics with Ernie Gilroy, but
Ernie Gilroy is certainly a former city councillor, well known to members of
the Liberal Party. We work with Lloyd Axworthy, a fine Manitoban, I think a
good example of where the NDP has understood that if you want to build a
province, you work with people beyond just your immediate partisan boundaries,
Lloyd Axworthy, well-respected. I am really glad to have him back here in
* (11:50)
Mr. Deputy Speaker, we
did not appoint token Liberals. I mean, is Lloyd Axworthy a token Liberal? I
mean, one of the most prominent Liberals of the last generation here in
I know in the last election I received a very significant amount of support, the highest I have ever received. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want to put on the record, they are not all card-carrying New Democrats. There are a lot of card-carrying New Democrats, a lot of very strong New Democrats in northern Manitoba, but I know a lot of people who support me individually, support many of us on this side of the House because they see us being a good government, and good governments do build bridges.
So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, when I read this, I said to myself, democratic accountability, Liberals and democratic accountability in the same sentence. [interjection] I mean, no shame, as the Member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) points out.
I am not going to be critical of Sharon Carstairs. I do respect her, by the way. I know there was some criticism about her taking an appointed Senate position. I want to say that I think there is a good example. The Senate is full of Liberals. It is like the night of the living political dead there. You go there and it is like a museum. You can sit down in the Senate galleries and you will see Liberals from the nineties, the eighties, the seventies. You can serve 20- and 30-odd years, 12 years of Liberal appointments. By the way, did they abolish the Senate? That is something I think should happen. No. Did they even get around to electing it? No, because if they had done that, there would be less patronage jobs for Liberals, and they were appointing Liberal senators through the patronage system right up to their dying days as a government.
So let us not get lectures from Liberals in terms of how to run government based on merit. I do think, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that the Liberals, federally, are going to find that their days as the natural governing party, that is their assumption, are long gone. The Liberals have done more to set back federalism in Québec because of Adscam and the sleazy way in which money was transferred directly to the Liberal Party. Now we have Stephen Harper as Prime Minister, and we have the federal Liberals and their Adscam scandal to thank. Thank goodness we elected more New Democrats in the last election to keep the Conservative government in line.
But as I look at the new
federal leadership and I look at members opposite, one great thing about
Liberals, Mr. Deputy Speaker, an historic fact, they promised medicare in 1919.
It took an NDP government to bring it in in
My suggestion to the Liberals opposite is instead of bringing in this resolution, because they have no credibility now, maybe they should follow our example. One of the reasons the New Democratic Party is in the position that we are in in this province–and, you know, there are always issues of disagreement, but a lot of people that I talk to, even who do not necessarily vote NDP, say that we have been an open government, a good government in terms of reaching out across the province to all regions.
We do not just focus in on one narrow perspective. But they also recognize we reach out to qualified individuals. I am proud to be working with people who are qualified individuals, some of whom are New Democrats and some of whom are not New Democrats, some of whom are most definitely not New Democrats.
You know what, Mr. Deputy
Speaker? Unlike the Liberals in
I want to finish by saying that I would suggest the members opposite go back to the drawing board, perhaps withdraw this resolution, maybe spend a little bit of time doing a few mea culpas in terms of their appalling federal record, and maybe in about 10 or 20 years when people have forgotten about the stench of the last federal Liberal government in terms of patronage, maybe then they might have some credibility moving this resolution.
As it is, Liberals lecturing us on democratic accountability, I do not think so. This government I think will take no lectures from members opposite and has a very good record in reaching out to all Manitobans. Just look at some of the people we have appointed to boards and commissions.
Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): I am happy to be able to rise this morning to put a few comments with regard to this resolution.
Mr. Speaker in the Chair
I just listened to the Minister of Water Stewardship who unfortunately has meetings to go to, but if he did not, I would certainly like him to hear these comments because he talked about cronyism in the Liberal party. We know all about the inquiry that we just went through in the federal scene, but, Mr. Speaker, I want to remind the Minister of Water Stewardship that there is not any greater cronyism than there is in the NDP and the Crocus Fund.
If we ever want to see a government that is riddled with corruption, it is this current NDP government with its hiding of facts with regard to Crocus, with regard to shielding some of their hacks when it comes to the Crocus Fund. The one who they are shielding most is the one who earns most in the government. I think that it is Mr. Eugene Kostyra, who probably fetches one of the largest salaries in this government, and he is the one who is being protected by the government because of his activities with regard to the Crocus Fund.
So, Mr. Speaker, when we talk about appointments, and this resolution talks about an all-party committee that would screen appointments to various committees, I do not know how that would ever work. But I can tell you that with the experience that we have had with this government, and if you look at the cross-section of appointments that have been made to the various committees, I think pretty much every New Democrat who has contributed to the New Democratic Party has gotten a favour of some kind of appointment by this government.
Now, Mr. Speaker, when you look at the issues of Crocus, that one really can stand out as being sort of the typical approach that the NDP have to trying to manipulate how everything goes on in the province. They are so closely tied to the labour union that, of course, they had to have their labour buddies and all of the individuals associated with the labour movement somehow have their hands in the cookie jar. So they have gotten them either on the Workers Compensation Board or they have them on the TRAF Board, or they have them on the Crocus Board. You name any board, the Workers Compensation Board, everywhere you look, everywhere you look there is cronyism.
When the Minister of Water Stewardship points his finger at the Liberals in this House because of what happened on the federal scene, he should remember there are three fingers pointing back at him. [interjection] Mr. Speaker, the Member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) says wrong. Well, let the facts speak for themselves. [interjection]
The Minister of Education (Mr. Bjornson) says yes, they do. All I have to do is remind him about the Public Schools Finance Board and the Public Schools Finance Board's activities within Seven Oaks School Division. Now, who was the member on the Public Schools Finance Board who was responsible for this?
Well, do we know the name Ben Zaidman? Do we know the name Brian O'Leary? Well, what party do you think they are associated with? Would it be the Liberal Party? No. Would it be the Conservative Party? No. Would it be the New Democratic Party? Yes. This is the Ben Zaidman, this is the great Manitoban who decided that it was okay for a school division like Seven Oaks, whose, by the way, superintendent was who? Brian O'Leary. Oh yes, and it was all right for him to go out and buy property on a speculation basis because you might make a profit on it. Then the Minister of Education, the Member for Gimli said this is fine. This is okay. So, Mr. Speaker, they should be embarrassed. They should hide their faces in shame.
The list goes on and on and on. Do we need to talk about Agassiz School Division? Do we need to talk about the issues that occurred under Agassiz School Division and this government?
How many times has the Auditor General commented on the inappropriate actions of ministers in this government with regard to board appointments, with regard to activities? And the biggest, and the one where Manitobans lost the most money, of course, was the Crocus Fund.
Mr. Speaker: Order. When this matter is again before the House, the honourable Member for Russell will have five minutes remaining.
The hour being twelve noon, we will recess and reconvene at 1:30 p.m.