LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA
Tuesday, June 1, 2010
Mr. Speaker: O Eternal and Almighty God, from Whom all power and wisdom come, we are assembled here before Thee to frame such laws as may tend to the welfare and prosperity of our province. Grant, O merciful God, we pray Thee, that we may desire only that which is in accordance with Thy will, that we may seek it with wisdom, know it with certainty and accomplish it perfectly for the glory and honour of Thy name and for the welfare of all our people. Amen.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
House Business
Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I think if you canvass the House, you'd find agreement to move straight to Bill 206.
Mr. Speaker: Is there agreement to move directly to second reading of Bill 206, The Waste Reduction and Prevention Amendment Act? Is there agreement? [Agreed]
Bill 206–The Waste Reduction and Prevention Amendment Act
Mr. Speaker: I'll call second reading of Bill 206, The Waste Reduction and Prevention Amendment Act.
Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the MLA for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), that Bill 206, The Waste Reduction and Prevention Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur la réduction du volume et de la production des déchets, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House.
Motion presented.
Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, this bill calls for the elimination, in Manitoba, of single-use plastic checkout bags. The goal here, and it is timely, is to reduce our dependence on oil-based products like plastic checkout bags, which are toxic, when they break down, to the environment and cause serious environmental problems. And it is timely because we have an example, with the situation in the Gulf, the big oil spill, of the toxic effects of oil on the environment. And as we watch in the news every day and hear what's happening there, we see more and more evidence of the major problems with oil and the environment, and we have an opportunity here in Manitoba to do something about this, to eliminate the use of plastic bags.
This is not the first time that we have brought this legislation before the House. On previous occasions it has been rejected by the government. The government has decided so far that it would prefer a go-slow approach. There has been, I think, some decreased use of plastic checkout bags and increased use of cloth bags and biodegradable bags, but we're nowhere near where we should be. We should have–be on our way. We should have eliminated plastic bags in Manitoba and be on a par with a variety of other jurisdictions around the world which have moved in this direction.
Mr. Speaker, just to cite a few instances: Back in 2003, Tasmania, Australia, eliminated plastic checkout bags in all their retail stores in Coles Bay. In March of 2007, San Francisco was the first city to eliminate the use of traditional plastic grocery bags. In April the 2nd, 2007, which is now more than three years ago, the town of Leaf Rapids in northern Manitoba passed their By-Law No. 462, making it the first community in Manitoba to eliminate plastic bags.
Law prohibited retailers from selling or distributing single-use plastic bags and imposed a $1,000 fine, and officials in Leaf Rapids offered cloth bags for free, and the town brought back plastic bags for one cent. It was an effective measure. It changed the nature of the local landfill site. And this has been duplicated, not just in cities, but China, in 2008, as an example, brought in a nationwide program to eliminate plastic bags. And so there are many other places, including South Africa, Australia, Austria, Uganda and Ireland, with measures to reduce plastic bags, and it's time that we acted and acted definitively here in Manitoba.
Plastic bags are a blight on the landscape, particularly in the spring. They're blowing around. They're in the trees. We would prefer a beautiful Manitoba instead of a Manitoba with plastic bags blowing all over the place. If you go down to the Brady Landfill site, you will see plastic bags blowing all over the countryside just because this government hasn't done what it should be doing, and that is eliminate these plastic bags. We should be moving to compostable bags made of cornstarch or potato starch or these kinds of ingredients.
Indeed, being a province where agriculture is very important, this would provide another use for agricultural products, another market for agricultural-based products. And we should be in this business rather than leaving it to other countries to develop these forward-thinking businesses and continuing to use the old-fashioned, oil-based, petroleum product-based plastic bag here in Manitoba.
It's time to change. The estimate is that there are hundreds of millions of plastic bags going into landfill sites around Manitoba every year. We need to change this. We need to improve our approach to the environment. We need to have a beautiful Manitoba, improve our landscape, and we need to avoid the plastic bags when they break down–which is quite slowly–break down to release toxic products. We don't want that contaminating our environment. We need to change.
And I call on all MLAs to support this measure, Bill 206, to eliminate the use of plastic bags, plastic checkout bags in Manitoba. Thank you.
* (10:10)
Mr. Drew Caldwell (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, it's a privilege to stand in the House again today to speak to Bill 206, The Waste Reduction and Prevention Amendment Act. We have been in this House discussing this particular–an incarnation of this particular bill for quite some time now. The bill, as presented by the member opposite, calls for the prohibition of–by–of retailers from supplying plastic checkout bags to customers, and the bill proposes to make this prohibition effective January 1st, 2011.
While I appreciate the member's diligence in bringing forward an incarnation of this bill, time and again, I would really appreciate, and I think most Manitobans, and certainly the retailers in Manitoba, would appreciate if the member actually consulted with the marketplace, with Manitobans, with the business community, as opposed to–which is what he typically does or what the members of his–or actually the two members of the Liberal Party in this House, Mr. Speaker–they never consult with Manitobans. They never consult with the business community. They don't consult with–
An Honourable Member: They don't consult with themselves.
Mr. Caldwell: Well, they don't–my colleague from Thompson reminds me they rarely consult with themselves. The two members have divergent opinions on many things. They bring divergent opinions to this House. They have a position in Winnipeg that's different from their position in Brandon, which is, again, different from their position in Selkirk or Gimli. There's no consistency in anything that they say in this House and, Mr. Speaker, in this–
Point of Order
Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for River Heights, on a point of order.
Mr. Gerrard: Yes, you know, there's no reason for this member from Brandon East to be spewing nonsense like this. It is–you know, we're debating the plastic bag–elimination of the plastic bag, which is very important to the environment in Manitoba. The member should stay focussed on the topic of what we're talking about.
Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for River Heights, debates on different matters or different opinions are–I usually allow a lot of leeway, and relevancy is important. But, here, I would say, this is a dispute over the facts.
* * *
Mr. Caldwell: My point in this debate, Mr. Speaker, is that the member and his fellow member have no consistency and, in this particular instance, which is this bill, there's been no dialogue with the marketplace, no discussion with the business community. Members bring in boxes of fudge into this Chamber sometimes to grandstand. It's not unusual. Big Macs–my colleague from Gimli reminds me that McDonald's Big Macs meetings are, you know, the height of policy thought that members opposite seem to delight in.
So, Mr. Speaker, we, as a government, have been moving forward diligently on a strategy to cut plastic bag use in Manitoba by up to 50 percent, and we've been working with the business community to implement this reduction. I'm very happy that the business community, not only here in Manitoba, but more broadly speaking, in North America, have moved to reduce plastic bags themselves. All of us here buy groceries. All of us here are aware that the major grocery outlets now provide re-usable bags in their stores. I expect that most, if not all of us, use recyclable–recycled bags, linen bags or, in my case, I use a lot of–I don't use a lot of them now–I have a few freezer bags that are sold in grocery stores for cold products and medical supplies, frankly.
So industry, itself, while this bill has come forth a number of times in various incarnations by–from the member from River Heights, I'm not sure if his colleague, the member from Inkster, agrees with him on this. I haven't about–heard, Mr. Speaker, the debate in this House during this session. And he may have changed his mind, as is he's wont to do from day to day and week to week. So I'm not even sure if the member from Inkster supports this particular bill. Perhaps we'll hear from him later, perhaps, although I'm–he is busy running a campaign for another office in another House. So we don't know if he will actually speak on this bill.
But the bill as put forward would have a lot more credibility, obviously, if members–if the member had actually consulted with the marketplace. It would have a lot more credibility if the members–the two members of the party maintained some sort of consistency in their general presentation to this House on anything that they bring forth.
Mr. Speaker, it doesn't really have a lot of credibility. It's been here a few times. I would really like the member–and would urge him to actually consult with the business community when he brings forward this bill, which I expect he will again if it does not pass muster this session.
Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned earlier, we as a government have consulted with the public on setting standards for compostable and biodegradable bags which is something that really is worthwhile moving towards in the province. The more biodegradable products that we can put into the marketplace, particularly in packaging and boxing and bagging, the better. It provides, as well, the added–value‑added opportunity for the growth of business for the manufacturer of compostable and biodegradable packaging. And I would suggest that that's an opportunity that might be well taken advantage of here in Manitoba, given our ease of transport to the remainder of the continent. It would seem like that would be, perhaps, an opportunity for us in Manitoba to develop an industry in compostable and biodegradable packaging manufacturing.
Mr. Speaker, the standards that we're seeking would include a requirement that bags contain a minimum quantity of post-consumer recycled material, that bags be imprinted with a message to remind users to recycle or re-use the bag. And as I said, compostable and biodegradable bags, we trust and expect, will have to meet national or international standards and be certified as such. So this is a broad initiative that we're undertaking in government to working with industry and with the business community to develop a long-term solution that not only addresses the immediate issue of reducing plastic bags but, perhaps, develops business opportunities for the marketplace that we could take advantage of here in Manitoba.
So, Mr. Speaker, we have heard from industry that there are legitimate uses for plastic bags such as the disposal of kitchen waste. Plastic bags also are used by dog walkers and so forth. That being said, we–Manitobans do want more done, and we as a government are seeking to address this issue, working with business, working with the community, and in particular looking at the opportunities available through biodegradable and compostable packaging material. Thank you.
Ms. Sharon Blady (Kirkfield Park): Mr. Speaker, it's interesting to note no one else from the other side standing up to speak on this, but, anyways, I think this is about the second time that I've had to speak on this and–[interjection] Okay, well, I just was worried that you're all grabbing coffee or something.
Anyways–the point being that, you know, Bill 206–I come from a background of having been an environmentalist from quite a young age, used to teach about it, when I was in university, to youth. I was involved with a number of environmental groups including some going back long before the member for Wolseley (Mr. Altemeyer) was the member for Wolseley.
He and I were part of the University of Manitoba Recycling and Environmental Group, among other things, and we used to teach at elementary schools. And one of the key aspects about anything involving improving the environment is education, and I think that's one thing that needs to be considered, is that putting a ban into place really doesn't do the same as changing the way people think.
* (10:20)
You need to change the way people think and the way they look at the world. And, having educated kids on these issues, you can see that once kids learn these things they move on and they teach their parents. So I've got two boys that are quite the advocates for blue box recycling, for other things, and, yes, our car trunk has about 20 grocery bags in it–cloth bags–some of which are about 20 years old.
So, again, it's one of those things that is about habits. It's about mindsets. It's about the fact that, unlike the member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard), I'm drinking my coffee out of a real mug as opposed to a paper cup. It's about a holistic perspective. So, instead of being a one-trick pony and going after an individual issue, it's about a holistic perspective and educating people and working with the stakeholders on this.
So we have consulted with the public on setting standards for compostable and biodegradable bags, and we continue those discussions with industry. We know that, for example, a wonderful gentleman by the name of Randall McQuaker, from Resource Conservation Manitoba, has said that, you know, and I quote: We don't take the position that plastic bags are inherently evil. There are some situations where plastic bags are the material of choice. And he said that back in '07.
So we need to consider the wheres, the whens and the context and educate people appropriately. They themselves at the Resource Conservation Manitoba have not called for a complete ban, but rather that people change their habits, and that the–in changing their habits that they purchase re-usable bags. They encourage stores to take back the plastic bags they need and that, if you need to accept a disposable bag, to re-use it.
So it's really about changing the way people do things, and I have noticed the change over the years and the change has not occurred because there was some kind of a ban. The change has occurred because people have become educated on the issue. They have learned what is and isn't good for the environment. They've also learned what is and isn't convenient. I can tell you right now, if you're carrying a couple bottles of pop or something heavy, the idea of having a cloth bag, you know it's going to make it to the car in a way that, you know, a double bag plastic may or may not. So, for a lot of people it even comes down to convenience.
We also need to worry about health safety in terms of packing your meats. The one place where I will take plastic is those small little plastic bags to wrap up meat products to make sure that there's not cross-contamination and to pack those things appropriately.
So we need to watch what we do, but, more importantly, we need to educate people. And, again, what we're seeing is that, by habit and by education, that the amount of plastic bags being used is declining. And so we've got the–you know–statistics that indicate that for the Canadian Council of Grocery Distributors that the bag orders in Manitoba have dropped by 1.5 million bags alone in the first half of 2008. We've got the–we know that most large retailers sell re-usable bags at point of sale, that we've had–1 million bags have been sold at these stores and introduced.
So we have different ways. I went into my local grocery store, the local Foodfare, and it's nice to see a small-business man, Mr. Munther Zeid, who is a wonderful cornerstone of our community, and what he was doing was if you bought groceries over a certain dollar value–I think it was about 25, 26 bucks–he gave you a cloth bag. So we've got retailers–now, that's a small business, and a lot of people say, well, it's very hard for small businesses to go green. Well, I can tell you that it's really about putting your mind to it.
I know of other small retailers in my neighbourhood, Constance Popp is an excellent example, where she actually packages her chocolate in the nice–it looks like it's plastic, but it's actually made from corn material and–so that it biodegrades on its own.
So, really, a lot of this is about changing how people look at things; not about banning things, but how our thought processes, our view of the world, our integration with the natural world evolves. And Constance and I have had some excellent conversations around how it's just about taking those things into consideration in your daily life, taking those things into consideration in how you run your business. So it's possible for her to run a business where she ethically sources and environmentally sources all of her product, both the actual raw goods, cocoa, et cetera, right up to her packaging.
So if there's a small business that can do that, and one small business that can integrate that thought process and then–and Mr. Zeid down the street doing the same thing with cloth bags–this is really about changing how people think. We don't need to ban things. We need to find a way of evolving ourselves out of this particular situation, because if we implement a ban we end up creating a situation where sometimes–there's a wonderful expression: the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and that by doing something that solves one problem you can create five new ones.
Well, I would rather not create five new ones or however many might arise from a ban if we don't have things in place–so working with industry, working with the–again, all of the stakeholders and, again, changing the way people think. Trust me, I know the first few times that I walked into grocery stores with cloth bags I got some weird looks, especially when it was places where they were just so used to–they already had the plastic bag ready to go and you handed them their bag–your bag, and they looked at you kind of funny and they wondered what it was and they thought there was rules against it and wanted to go check with their manager. Well, it's nice to see after 20 years, that's not an issue anymore.
But the point is is that a ban is something that is a little hard and fast and doesn't necessarily take into consideration all the–the context, and we do still need to work on the technology mentioned of the different kinds of compostable and biodegradable bags. Well, I can tell you from my composter I actually use compostable bags in the liner so that under my sink I can put those in there.
One of the things you learn very soon as you watch the amount of wet material–because those compostable bags can actually start to dissolve if you have too much wet material in them, so there's a relearning process that occurs with each new kind of technology, so we've learned what the magic mix is and how much compost you can put into the compostable bag before you bring it out to the composter in the back yard.
So there are those kinds of things that if we're going to be coming up with alternative bags and working with the industry, there needs to be some time to do the science on that and to see the practicality. It would be a real shame if we went and told everybody that we're banning one kind of bag, you need to make this kind of bag, and then we found out the first day all those things came out of the factory, a whole bunch of people had milk cartons in the middle of the parking lot at the grocery store, all because the science wasn't there to make sure that those great new wonderful bags that, while allowed, didn't actually do the job.
So we need to be taking a look at this kind of stuff and, again, I expect to be speaking to this yet again in a future session.
Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): It's a pleasure to put some words on the record in regards to Bill 206, The Waste Reduction and Prevention Amendment Act. But, obviously, by the member for Kirkfield Park's last comment, the government is not in favour of eliminating plastic bags out of the system, Mr. Speaker. They're quite happy to see them stay in the system, and I'm disappointed in the member's comments.
But, first of all, Mr. Speaker, I'd just like to say that this is my first opportunity to rise in the House in regards to speaking to a bill or have the opportunity to speak, and I'd just like to put my comments on the record and my commendation of a great Premier that has passed away, the Honourable Duff Roblin, and I just wanted to on behalf of the people of Arthur-Virden put a few words of commendation to Mr. Roblin's life and his vision and his work that he had done in Manitoba to make Manitoba a better place to live as we all try to do. He was exemplary in his abilities to do that, and so with those few words I just wanted to put on the record that the people of Arthur-Virden–on behalf of them, to recognize his contributions in our province.
Mr. Speaker, I think that Bill 206, in speaking to it as well, there is a situation here–there's many precedents in regards to this. We certainly believe and support the principle of this bill, and it's aimed at reducing the amount of waste going into our landfills. Anytime we can do that is certainly a plus. As the Conservation and Water Stewardship critic, I'm very aware of that. Having lived and farmed in rural Manitoba all of my life, I'm certainly aware of the recycling that is required, the waste management that we can do in each of our homes and communities.
And I want to go back to–you know, we've heard a number of people say today that they use cloth bags in grocery stores, and we do as well when we go shopping in my own family, and my children do as well. But I wanted to say that if you go back far enough, I can remember when my mother even recycled the cardboard boxes. They used to pick them up at the country grocery stores and they'd bring all their groceries home in the backseat of the car in cardboard boxes in those days, Mr. Speaker, and, you know, instead of burning them or throwing them out in the farm sites, because that wasn't practical either, they were kept in the basement and stored, and the next time they went back to town for more groceries they took the cardboard boxes back and gave them back to the grocer so that he could–as if he didn't have enough boxes already. But they used those as recyclables as well for the next families to use or to bring their own groceries home again.
* (10:30)
So there's been a lot of history of recycling in Manitoba but it could always be improved. And I think that the–you know, there's an estimate of some 200 million plastic bags a year used in Manitoba. And I think the initiative taken by Leaf Rapids, and I would say, other countries, particularly Ireland, where policy makers have introduced a levy on the sale of plastic bags. And I'm not sure that 1 cent, as was used in Leaf Rapids, would bring a lot back, but it's certainly an indication that it has worked in other areas, some areas of bottles, and that sort of thing, Mr. Speaker.
We want to make sure that we are educating consumers as well to do more recycling, Mr. Speaker. But the government, this government particularly, in regards to giving lip-service to recycling, it's like giving the lip-service to saying that they're reducing greenhouse gas emissions, when we know that those have gone up. In fact, they've gone up in Manitoba much faster than they have in the rest of Canada. And in this government's 10‑11 year tenure and that they certainly have not made progress in regards to meeting their own election promises of reducing those greenhouse gases over time. And I could go on about a number of other promises that have been broken since they were elected in 1999 as well. I remember them well.
I just want to say, as well, that education is probably of paramount importance in regards to getting consumers more in tune with being able to use other recyclable bags in regards–as opposed to the plastics that we have today.
But, Mr. Speaker–and I note that this bill indicates that they would–that the member from River Heights would, in this bill, enacted on the day that it receives royal assent–and maybe that's why the government has indicated that they are afraid of this bill, because they don't want to take a step and do something that quickly even though they've had about four years in planning to have brought this bill forward themselves. Because, as my colleague from River Heights, the member here has indicated in the Legislature, the Liberal member, that this bill was brought forward in '07, brought forward in '08, and that's been discussed by the two members of the NDP that have spoken to this bill today so far.
But, Mr. Speaker, there was some contradictory comments made by the member from Kirkfield Park in her comments just now that I'd just like to point out how basically contradictory they were. Saying that, well, you never get anywhere by having a ban. Well, if–it shows you how out of touch she is in regards to her comments in regards to this recycling process.
I only say that because of–it's her government that brought in the ban on smoking and that's very, very clear that it has helped reduce the amount of smoking that's been done in Manitoba. And I know that came out of a private member's bill on this side of the House. The member from Carman and I put forward that bill a number of years ago and I'm hoping that the government takes as much heed to that bill as they do to this one, Mr. Speaker, in regards to moving forward with this at some point.
I'd also like to point out that we've got speed zones that her government has put in place. They've increased fines, and if that isn't a ban on to try and force people into a certain action, then what is, Mr. Speaker? The speed zones, of course, they went overboard in regards to the photo radar bans that they had or the fines that they tried to collect in that area; didn't pay back.
Another area that the government has mandated a particular area is in the area of our gasoline. They've mandated an 8 percent inclusion of ethanol in our gasoline today. And without mandating that type of an action, it wouldn't have happened to the same extent on a volunteer basis. It was happening by some of the companies taking the lead and doing it. But certainly, it was something that the government felt they needed to do in order to make a change in attitude amongst our population.
Mr. Speaker, there's a whole host of other areas that the government has made moves on in this area. They've regulated–put a number of regulations in place in regards to a whole host of areas. But I just wanted to remind the member from Kirkfield Park that these are a number of areas that have been mandated and put in place to get certain results, and others, they've used bans to make the same initiative come to fruition amongst persons. And to a great–in most instances, these have been beneficial areas that have changed attitudes, if that is your goal.
And this initiative in using the ban of the sale or the use of plastic checkout bags, Mr. Speaker, is something that will come about someday. There's no doubt in my mind that it will be an initiative that will be picked up by the people of Manitoba, and it's an area that the government could've put more emphasis on.
But, Mr. Speaker, with those–so with those words, I just wanted to say that I would commend those who are already doing this in Manitoba and urge the government to pay more attention to this particular bill. Thank you.
Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation): I, first of all, want to indicate that I welcome any discussion on this or any other matter related to waste reduction. I think we may have disagreements on where to proceed on specific items, but I think we all see in our society the degree to which we have a significant waste stream and the importance of both waste reduction and recycling.
And I do want to indicate, by the way, that in our family we're rabid recyclers, composters, and we do use re-usable grocery bags. I say that not to suggest that others who follow different practices don't have legitimate reasons for doing that, but I have seen to a large degree, Mr. Speaker, that some–in some cases, education is really important.
I take composting as an example. You can compost in Thompson, Manitoba. We are living proof. Yes, there is a more challenging climate. Yes, there's a slower breakdown of the compostable materials, but we've been recycling probably for close to 10 years. And what's interesting, Mr. Speaker, is in talking to people, I found that we actually are really going back to the future. I have the honour of representing eight communities: obviously the city of Thompson after which the constituency's named, but also seven other communities, First Nations communities and Northern Affairs communities. And what's interesting is it wasn't that long ago that every community in my constituency had a significant number of gardens and composting was just a regular part of the gardening process.
I say that because through the Northern Healthy Foods Initiative, we've seen some revival of that, renaissance of that, but people may not be aware even of the degree to which–in the community of Wabowden, there was an agricultural test station in place for many years. And, you know, it's important to note that, because we've gone into a situation for probably the last generation where much of the food that was consumed in northern Manitoba came from grocery stores. I mean, obviously, people go, they purchase packaged products, and what we're finding now is a lot of people are getting back to that understanding of the fact that many years ago the north was able to feed itself.
Mr. Speaker, I don't know if members of this House would be aware–you'd certainly be aware–but more than 25 percent of the reserve agriculture land is in northern Manitoba. We have fertile soil up to and as far north as Split Lake in my riding.
So a lot of it is–has been a shift in lifestyle in which we've lost touch with some of the most basic elements. I mentioned food production, but I think in terms of waste streams–I know that when I visit many of the communities either in my constituency or northern Manitoba, one of the biggest challenges now actually is in terms of waste disposal sites and the actual waste stream.
Now, the recycling centre in Thompson, which is going through a renewal now and we're working as a government with them in terms of funding, they have been working with surrounding communities, but, you know, 10 or 20 or 30 years ago, there really was a limited waste stream. But we're seeing now, in communities throughout northern Manitoba, used cars, used appliances and, because of the significant consumer products that are purchased, a waste stream that's not dissimilar to what you would find in an urban community.
* (10:40)
And it brings with it, by the way, the fact that many northern communities don't have necessarily the waste disposal sites that they require and I know we're certainly working with northern communities. I recently met with War Lake and York Factory First Nations. We're looking at some of the issues there–transportation-related issues related to their waste disposal sites.
But I wanted to say this because I believe that the real issue we're dealing with here is very much one of lifestyle, and if we simply pick, right at the final end of the process, on the plastic bag side and assume that that is the only element in the equation, I think we're going to miss the broader element.
I want to point, for example, with the fact that, yes, you know, if you're taking plastic bags that are not compostable, not biodegradable, there's–I mean, they can be in the waste stream for hundreds of years and I think the member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard), you know, is to be commended for raising that as a concern.
But, you know, Mr. Speaker, if you look at the–if you went to any average store, and I'm not going to pick by name any stores in this or any other part of Manitoba, you'll find a very interesting situation. Look at the packaging. I mean, I have this personal thing about blister packages. You know, how much plastic goes into those packages? That's not something that would necessarily be covered by a plastic bag ban, but we see virtually all products now with these large plastic blister packs–many of them, by the way, much of the plastic is not recyclable. I mean, a lot of times I get very frustrated when I look to recycle the plastic because, in our home, we recycle the plastic, including all plastic bags, and many of them don't have the ability to be recycled.
So when you're talking about waste reduction, you have to go not just at the retail level but you have to go right back to the warehousing and packaging level, and I would say, Mr. Speaker, and I think this is borne out by statistics as well that have tracked with the waste stream and I was certainly aware of this when I was Conservation minister and identified it as an issue. Clearly, we're looking at more and more waste that comes from nothing more or less than packaging alone, and that is why only focussing on the plastic bags, if you have significant amount of packaging, avoids the real problem.
Now, that's not the only element of the waste stream that is difficult. I think we have to acknowledge the growing challenge of electronic waste and the fact that we have been working to expand the ability to recycle electronic waste products. When you look at the planned obsolescence of society today, you know, computers that are three or four years old are obsolete. Many of them are being put in the waste stream.
The last number of years with the advent of flat screen TVs, many people are getting rid of TVs that are maybe four or five or six years old. Where are they going? They're going into the waste stream. There's significant heavy metals, let alone all of the plastic and other components that are in those electronic devices that are being disposed.
And I think we have to recognize that even recycling, in and as of itself, is only part of the solution. The real issue here should not be how well we recycle but what we are doing in terms of sustainability, in terms of waste. And we have a trend that is challenging not just here–us here in Manitoba but across the country. I think we've made some significant moves the last period of time and I know, certainly, that former minister of Conservation did was really a new system that focusses in on having a role for producers of all products–because I want to stress again, we've had some experience with deposits for bottles going back to the 2 percent–the 2-cent levy. But the problem with that, again, it only focussed in on certain kinds of containers.
We have to recognize that waste is a broad element of our packaging and, Mr. Speaker, I think it's important for–also to look at that. Now, I do know about the specific ban and, as I complete my remarks, in Leaf Rapids–I certainly commend the community of Leaf Rapids. I know the community very well. It's probably a somewhat different situation than most other Manitoba communities but it's certainly an option that is available to other communities. My own community of the city of Thompson is also looking at that, as well, and if you consider the municipal role for waste disposal, it's certainly a legitimate initiative at the municipal level.
So what I want to do–complete my remarks by saying is that I certainly do think that this bill is worth debate and discussion. I think perhaps it's a bit too narrowly focussed. I think, quite frankly, a focus on the broad waste stream is needed, and I would say, to a large degree, greater sustainability, and that particularly focusses on our consumer activities, Mr. Speaker.
I want to suggest, again, that part of it is the change in lifestyle. I'm really pleased to see some of the efforts to get back to gardening, to hunting and fishing and trapping in northern communities. You know, when people hunted and trapped and fished for a living in communities, and that continues to this day, but when there was much more widespread practices, you didn't have to worry about the waste. There was no waste.
So we have to do more than just debate a very narrowly focussed bill. I think we have to have a broader approach to waste reduction. I certainly welcome the debate on this, but I think it's probably a little bit too narrowly focussed. Not to be critical of it, but I do–I think it's been a useful suggestion, but we need to do a lot more and we need to have much more of a comprehensive approach. And that is something this government is doing on waste reduction that will clearly establish a more sustainable footprint for this province.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Mohinder Saran (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to add my comments regarding this Bill 206.
We are moving forward with our strategy to cut plastic bag use by 50 percent and ban bags that don't fit composting or recycling standards. We have consulted with the public on setting standards for compostable and biodegradable bags. Further discussions and consultations with industry, recycling organizations and stakeholders are continuing. These standards could include a requirement that bags contain a minimum quantity of post-consumer recycled material, bags be imprinted with a message to remind users to recycle or re-use the bag, and compostable or biodegradable bags will have to meet national or international standards and be certified as such. What we have heard so far is that there are legitimate uses for plastic bags, such as disposal of kitchen waste. Plastic bags are also often used by dog walkers. That being said, Manitobans do want more to be done.
The Packaging and Printed Paper Stewardship Regulation registered on December 2, 2008. This regulation strengthens support for Manitoba's multi‑material recycling program and builds on the successful Blue Box program. It makes companies and people who sell or distribute packaging or printed material in Manitoba the stewards of those materials and therefore responsible for organizing and supporting a program to recycle them and to reduce litter. Several industry associations representing stewards have joined together to form Multi-Material Stewardship Manitoba. Manitoba Conservation and Green Manitoba are working closely with the MMSM as it launches its program. The new program is now in effect and we expect to see improved recycling opportunities for Manitobans as a result.
We are leaders on the issue of reducing plastic bags. Manitoba Liquor Marts were the first in Canada to stop ordering plastic bags in December 2007. Nova Scotia, Ontario, Québec, Saskatchewan are following our example. And we are one of two provinces to have reduction targets for bags. Ontario also has a 50 percent reduction over a five-year target.
We all agree that a plastic bag ban sounds goods, but we also want to make sure any plan we pursue is effective. Without a strategy, a ban will not be achievable.
* (10:50)
The amount of plastic bags being thrown away is declining. The Canadian Council of Grocery Distributors estimates that bag orders in Manitoba dropped by 5 percent, or 1.5 million bags, in the first half of 2008, as compared to that period in the previous year. Most large retailers in Manitoba sell re-usable bags at point of sale. Since 2007, over one million have been sold at these stores. Manitoba Safeways collect approximately 40,000 pounds of bags. That is over 2.5 million bags per month, and recycling bins in Winnipeg Sobeys collect 500 bags per night.
The member for River Heights' bill ignores promotion and education. We recognize the importance of education programs to encourage use of re-usable bags and re-use and recycling of plastic bags.
We are strengthening our recycling efforts. Our new tipping fee reward municipal recycling efforts–the more municipalities recycle, the more they get back. We launched Manitoba's first year-round e‑waste depots, and in 2009 over 1,000,000 pounds, or two thousand–206 semi-loads were collected and diverted from our landfills, which is four times more than in 2007. Our dual-flush toilet rebate resulted in 10,500 dual-flush toilets being sold, which will save 266 million litres of water annually, the equivalent of 106,700 Olympic-sized swimming pools. And in 2009, over 750,000 kilograms of household hazardous waste were collected at 35 collection events throughout the province.
We have a strong blue box recycling program. Manitoba provides 80 percent of funding for local recycling programs, the highest proportion in Canada. We have successfully partnered to provide over 200 residential recycling programs to communities across the province. Recycling is rising. In 1999, Manitobans recycled 32,610 metric tonnes; in 2008, we recycled twice that, over 77,000 tonnes.
We provide the highest proportion of funding for local recycling projects in Canada. We have partnered to provide over 200 residential recycling programs to Manitoba communities, and we are strengthening recycling by setting aggressive reduction targets for plastic bags and other materials.
Multi-Material Stewardship Manitoba will: invest an additional $3 million annually in recycling; improve recycling at arenas, parks, restaurants, stores and hotels; promote recycling at schools, colleges, universities; reduce plastic bag use by promoting re‑usable bags and increasing retail take-back of bags; help create green jobs by promoting opportunities for post-recycled products to be marketed here in Manitoba.
Without a strategy, a ban will not be achievable. Most of the jurisdictions the member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) cites don't have full bans. San Francisco banned large retailers from using plastic bags, but still allows smaller retailers to use them. China requires stores to charge for plastic shopping bags. Ireland's levy on plastic bags has led to a 90 percent decline in bag use, but a 21 percent increase in plastic consumed.
We don't want our actions to have unintended consequences which could hurt the environment. For example, while a ban on plastic bags could decrease the amount of plastic bags going into our landfills, it would likely lead to a dramatic increase in the number of paper bags going into our landfills. Paper bags have a significant impact on our environment as well. Paper bags use four times as much energy to produce than plastic bags. Paper bags use 84 times more energy to recycle than plastic bags.
Depending on the landfill conditions, paper may take nearly as long to decompose as plastic. Paper also takes up 80 percent more space in landfills. Paper produces 70 percent more air and 50 percent more water pollutants than plastic bags. Many stores already offer other options including re-usable cloth bags and organic compostable bags.
Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable member's time has expired.
Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I'm speaking on Bill 206, The Waste Reduction and Prevention Amendment Act. And I'd like to follow the lead of some of my colleagues who put on the record some of their personal experience with recycling, including the member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Maguire) and the member for Kirkfield Park (Ms. Blady). And I think it's good to do that. In fact, feminists having a saying, and the member for Kirkfield Park will be interested in this, that the personal is political. So I guess, in this context, what we do by way of personal example is also political. It means that we're practising what we preach and we are providing an example for other people.
So I, too, grew up in a home where there was no opportunity for recycling, but there was composting. And the first time I had a chance to influence the actions of other people was when I was living in downtown Toronto from 1973 to 1976 and living in a student accommodation, a house with 10 suites. And we started what we called the green house co‑operative society, and we got people to recycle paper, cans and glass. And I don't think we were able to recycle plastic, because I don't think that was possible at the time.
But I also took the initiative to build a compost box, because there was a backyard there, and to get people to save all their food scraps in the basement in five-gallon cans. And I was the one that took it out and put it in the compost. And we had 100 percent sign-up–we had 10 suites out of 10 suites participating in this. And we also used to borrow a van–I think a van belonging to my friend, Ken Hancock [phonetic]–and drive to a City of Toronto recycling depot to recycle the things that we had been collecting. Because I believe, at that time, there was no curb-side recycling.
It's hard to imagine that that wasn't the case, but subsequently, there is. In fact, Toronto is actually ahead of places like Winnipeg, because for many years now, Toronto has been recycling–or I should say collecting yard waste like leaves and other things and composting them. In fact, I remember at Victoria University–there are two universities with the name Victoria in, Victoria University in Toronto and University of Victoria in Victoria, British Columbia.
So I actually have a degree from Victoria University in theology. They only grant degrees in theology. They were one of the oldest universities in Canada, and they moved from Cobourg, Ontario to Toronto, and they gave up all their degree-granting rights in law and medicine and arts and other things to the University of Toronto. But they kept their right to give degrees in theology. And, in fact, the member for Elmwood (Mr. Blaikie) also has a degree from Victoria University in theology. And my daughter is enrolling at the University of Victoria in September to get a master's degree in conflict resolution. So we will each have a degree from a university named Victoria but two different universities and two very different degrees.
But I got distracted from my train of thought here, by myself I might add, because I was going to say that at University of Victoria in–Victoria University in Toronto, there were beautiful maple trees everywhere, and they collected all–
* (11:00)
Mr. Speaker: Order. When this matter is again before the House, the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) will have seven minutes remaining.
The hour now being 11 a.m., we will now move on to resolutions.
Res. 13–Rural and Northern Vocational Training
Mr. Speaker: We will deal with Resolution 13, the Rural and Northern Vocational Training.
Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): I move, seconded by the member for Gimli (Mr. Bjornson),
WHEREAS Manitoba's growth over the last 10 years has created a need for additional people in the trades to facilitate our province's continued economic expansion; and
WHEREAS ensuring Manitoba's continued economic success must include a strategy to develop vocational training programs in rural Manitoba; and
WHEREAS the provincial government has been working with Advanced Education and Literacy, Education and Entrepreneurship, Training and Trade through the Technical Vocational Initiative to ensure there are programs for both high school and post‑secondary students to develop skills in the trades; and
WHEREAS this initiative has worked to actively improve the image of the trades in the eyes of Manitoba's young people to ensure that schools are providing training that will match labour market needs, co-ordinate curriculum across different levels of education and provide funding to improve the quality of equipment used to educate students; and
WHEREAS the provincial government has expanded nurse training in rural areas through the Red River College Licensed Practical Nurse to Registered Nurse program, adding 24 rural rotating seats in 2005 and then an additional eight seats in 2009. Since its inception, the now 32-seat rotating program has been offered in Dauphin, Morden‑Winkler, Gimli, Portage la Prairie and Neepawa; and
WHEREAS the provincial government continues to support Aboriginal peoples with access to adult education and literacy programs, technical-vocational training and post-secondary education; and
WHEREAS through investments in the development of the University College of the North, the provincial government is making it easier for northerners and Aboriginal people to access education closer to home; and
WHEREAS Aboriginal people now currently comprise almost 15 percent of active apprentices and since 1999 the number of Aboriginal people registered in apprenticeship programs has more than tripled.
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba support the efforts of the provincial government in continuing to expand rural vocational training programs to ensure the continued growth of Manitoba's economy; and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba support the efforts of the provincial government in continuing to work in partnership with Aboriginal people to develop educational opportunities in the trades.
Mr. Speaker: It's been moved by the honourable member for the Interlake, seconded by the honourable Minister of Entrepreneurship, Training and Trade (Mr. Bjornson),
WHEREAS Manitoba's–dispense?
Some Honourable Members: Dispense.
Mr. Speaker: Dispense.
Mr. Nevakshonoff: It is, indeed, my pleasure to rise this morning to speak to this very important resolution regarding training and improvement in educational opportunities in rural and northern areas of the province.
And I would like to begin by stating that this is, in a sense, a happy problem that we are facing here in Manitoba, given that our growth in this province over the past decade has been phenomenal. This has put pressure on the economy as a whole to generate more trained people, more skilled people in the trades and graduates from universities and so forth. So, in that sense, it's a happy problem that we face, but it still remains a challenge nonetheless.
It remains a challenge in the sense that economic growth continues in this province, and I think it's noteworthy that Manitoba has done better than most, if not all, jurisdictions across this country, probably in North America and around the world, in the face of the current economic recession. Manitoba is, indeed, a leader in this regard. I look to other domains and I look particularly to the European Union as a good example, where the very cradle of democracy, the country of Greece, is on the verge of anarchy as we speak. People are rioting in the streets, whereas here in Manitoba, things are quite good in comparison to that.
You know, members opposite continue to bang the gong about balanced budgets and so forth, but really they should pull their heads out of the sand, because no jurisdiction in the world is balancing their budget at this point in time, and in times of economic downturn and recession it's important that governments do invest to try and stimulate the economy. Certainly, their compatriots at the federal level are well aware of that, and given that the–given the fact that they're running a deficit of almost–what is it, $50 billion? $60 billion? Who knows how many tens of billions of dollars they'll be going into deficit? So it's somewhat ironic that Progressive Conservatives here in Manitoba seem to feel that we're immune to that, and the fact that we're running roughly at about 5 percent over, not bad in consideration of that. Compared to anarchy in Greece, compared to the bankruptcy of first-world countries in other portions of the world, being 5 percent in the red, I think, is pretty respectable.
But members opposite have the luxury of taking us to task on that front, given that they're in opposition. And when you're in opposition, you can say whatever you want to whomever is listening and don't have to back it up, which is basically the position of members opposite, and that's why they are where they are today and where they will remain for the foreseeable future.
Now, I would like to give them an example. The last time this country went into a serious recession, in the early to mid-'90s, we had a Liberal government in office in Ottawa and a Conservative government in office here in Manitoba.
And on the most important front to people, and that's the issue of health care, how did those two parties opposite react to that? Well, we know well what Prime Minister Martin did while he was the Finance Minister at the time: massive cuts to health and social transfer payments to the provinces–which go to all provinces, by the way–massive cuts. Quite responsible turtle-ing, so to speak: putting their heads in the sand like ostriches, denying the fact that there is a problem, hiding from it, in effect. And the Filmon government here in Manitoba followed suit, followed lock step, as a matter of fact.
And the example of that, of course, is reducing training positions for doctors. If there's anything more important to the people of Manitoba, to the whole issue of health care, it would be the training of physicians. That would seem to be a no-brainer, but the Filmon government reduced training seats from 85 down to 70.
And our response since we have come to office–and I'll talk about nurses in a moment, how the Connie Curran report recommended the wholesale firing of nurses, also to reduce costs.
And this is all part of the grand Conservative strategy, I might add, to segue into a two-tier health‑care system, where there's a health-care system for the rich which is where all the doctors and nurses will go if they're being paid higher salaries on a for-profit basis, or if you want to remain with the public health-care system that pays for all people regardless of their wealth.
* (11:10)
So this was the Tory approach. This was the Liberal government's approach in Ottawa. Our approach, consistently, since we took office in 1999, has been to increase training opportunities not only for nurses, but for doctors, as well. And I think it's noteworthy that this year, I believe there's 110 training positions opened for physicians in our universities, a far cry from the record of members opposite, reducing it from 85 when they took over from our government in 1999–from the NDP government–to 70 where it was when we regained office in 1999. So that speaks volumes. It's a simple statistic, but it speaks volumes, how members opposite would react to an economic downturn. It would be to turtle; it would be to put their heads in the sand and hope that everything just blows over.
And they keep invoking the–private sector's going to rise up and create employment. That's all utter nonsense, Mr. Speaker, and the people of Manitoba know that well, which is why they have elected us three times consecutively and will, quite likely, elect us again, because to turn things over to members opposite in times of economic downturn would be a repeat of the '90s: slash and burn; cut, fire people; cut programs; and on an on and on.
And I've spoken on the topic of drainage before, and I'm getting a little off topic, but I just remember the cuts that they made to staff, reduced staff by 70 percent, reduced the budget from when they came to office to the point when they left office–what–well, I don't know if using the word "hypocrisy" is parliamentary, so I won't. But, you know, for them to purport to be supporters of rural Manitobans, and that's how they react to rural problems, it's really quite regrettable, to say the least.
Now, I look to some of our initiatives. I look to the constitution of the Len Evans Centre in Brandon. And I hope that the member of Brandon East will have the opportunity to get up to speak about that because, truly, this is a giant leap forward. And to have taken over the old Brandon Mental Health Centre and to have reconstituted Assiniboine Community College on that location was a big step to take. That was not an easy thing to do, very expensive, but when it comes to investing in education, especially at the post-secondary level, these types of decisions have to be made. And it takes will on the parts of government to find that money and put it on the table, something that members opposite are loath to do because their focus, of course, is basically on their pocketbooks, whether it's cutting taxes for the rich, cutting taxes for the upper 5 percent, or privatizing Crown corporations.
There you go, Mr. Speaker. Here we have Crown corporations that generate hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue for the people of Manitoba.
Mr. Speaker: The honourable member's time has expired.
Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon West): I have to admit, I rise very disappointed. I listened to the member from the Interlake for the last 10 minutes, and it's 10 minutes, unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, that's been lost to me and will never be regained. It's 10 minutes that I've actually learned absolutely nothing from the perennial backbencher from Interlake; as a matter of fact, didn't even speak to the resolution, as such.
I'm very disappointed, first of all, that I've lost 10 minutes of my life listening to the member but also very disappointed to think that the member from the Interlake, who thinks he's the–who thinks that he knows agriculture–and, unfortunately, the member from the Interlake, who had the opportunity to bring forward issues with relation to agriculture, knows that agriculture is facing challenges today, could have put onto the floor a resolution supporting agriculture, but, no, he decided not to.
He didn't realize that, right now, in agriculture, there's declining farm incomes. He didn't realize that there's an aging population in agriculture that, in fact, should be dealt with. He didn't realize that there's insufficient provincial programs right now supporting agriculture. But no, he didn't want to talk about what he thinks he knows because, probably, he didn't have the ability to speak to that in a knowledgeable fashion.
Mr. Speaker, what he could have talked about was the increase in taxes on agriculture that his government put into place where the 2 percent levy on supply management. But maybe he didn't want to talk about ag because he didn't want to talk about the way his government is destroying probably one of the best economic engines that we have in this province, the economic engine that the province was built on from day one. But no, the member from the Interlake didn't want to–who thinks he knows agriculture–didn't want to talk about ag because, really–maybe because he doesn't know what's happening in agriculture.
But he did bring former–forward a resolution that I have to say is probably one of the worst resolutions I've seen come to the floor of this House. He wants us to support his government's policy with respect to advanced education and the training process that we have in the province of Manitoba. The reason I say it's the worst resolution because, quite frankly, his government has failed and failed miserably in trying to put forward the–a better face for advanced education. In fact, Mr. Speaker, let me talk about a couple of areas. I'll actually talk to the resolution, unlike the member who put it forward.
In one of his and WHEREASes, he says: both high school and post-secondary students to develop skills in trades. Well, that's laudable, and I agree with that. I think that the trades in the province of Manitoba and the students have to make sure that they recognize that there are other opportunities out there than just simply a chair in a university class. There are–there is a need to encourage students in the high schools to go into trades. There is a need, Mr. Speaker, to take the stigma away from trades from people who are in high schools at the present time and go forward and look at the opportunities to present themselves in our trade schools.
It also go on to say that: this initiative has worked to actively improve the image of the trades in the eyes of Manitoba's young people to ensure that schools are providing training that will match the labour market. Well, that in fact, Mr. Speaker, is not true. And I'll give you a little example. I went to a graduation recently of a high school. And it was really quite exciting. There was a number of students there graduating from grade 12, and what happened in this particular graduation ceremony was, each student, when they walked through and got their diploma, explained to the group there, the audience, what it was that they were going to do after graduation. And some of them, obviously, said, we'll go forward and we'll continue our education at the university level. We'll go to Brandon University or the University of Manitoba.
Ms. Marilyn Brick, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair
Others came through and said that they were going to take a year off and they were going to travel and see the world, and that was laudable, too, because it's important to expand your horizons and expand and see other nations and see how other communities are operated.
Some said–quite a number of them actually, probably about half–said that they were going to take their next year and go to a trade school, ACC. Assiniboine Community College is in the–in Brandon, Red River community college being in Winnipeg. And some of those students would walk by and say, I’m going to take a trade in ACC or I'm going to take a GPS course in Red River College or I'm going to do a number of things at the community college level. Well, and that was very exciting, actually, because a good portion of the students were going to go to a trade school, a good portion of the students were going to go to university.
But the principal got up, Madam Deputy Speaker, at the end of the ceremony, and he said, and I quote: I hope the universities realize just how many talented people we're sending to the university.
I was absolutely shocked because half of those students that just walked by said they were going to go to a community college. They were going to go to a trade school; they were going to go to ACC, and they were excited about it. They were really excited about taking their education to the next level, and the principal had the audacity to say, we hope the universities accept the talented people that we're sending them.
What kind of a message did that send to the students who are going to go to a community college? It said that you're second class. And that's wrong.
So you think that this resolution is trying to encourage those kids to go to a trade school? No. What it did is it said, we want you to go to university and not to a community college. And that's wrong. So this resolution, this WHEREAS, is absolutely wrong.
* (11:20)
Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, he talked about Assiniboine Community College and its relocation to the North Hill in Brandon. Right or wrong, I'm not going to suggest that the decision was right or wrong that was made. The fact of the matter, it has been made by this government. They're going to relocate ACC to a new location. The one thing we don't want in the city of Brandon is a split campus, and the one thing that we're getting right now with this government is a split campus.
Why is it, Madam Deputy Speaker, they can spend four times the money that was supposed to be spent on that relocation and get half–half–of the facility that was meant to be? Let me quote some of the students that are going to that ACC trade school, the Len Evans trade school that's going to be in Brandon.
The proposed space for the apprenticeship program is not adequate. This comes from the students.
In the apprenticeship program we are often condensing eight weeks of material into six weeks. These time constraints mean that there is no time to gather training aids and set up equipment. This is from the students.
The loss of the engine performance lab is also baffling. Students in level 1 and pre-employment count the days, years, until they can take part in engine-training exercise. They've taken that away from the existing trade school.
To top it off, instead of six large doors allowing access–they should maybe listen to this–allowing access to the heavy-duty shop, the new shop–the new shop that costs four times more than what was anticipated–the new shop only has two overhead doors that are not big enough to drive a large four‑wheel drive or combine into the space. We are the only ag equipment trainer in the province, yet we can't drive a combine into the new–the new–heavy‑duty shop.
We just talked about agriculture and where it's going in the future, Madam Deputy Speaker, but all of a sudden, now, they've developed a training course for heavy-duty mechanics, who are usually based in agriculture; they can't bring in a piece of equipment to work on in the new school. What does that say to their efficiency? It says that they're totally inefficient and they have no idea what they're doing.
So, Madam Deputy Speaker, we now have a split campus, and, let me tell you, the lack of space that they now have in this multimillion-dollar new development: There's 30 less–30 percent less shop space, 40 percent less classroom space, 20 percent less storage space and, really important, 50 percent less washroom space.
So they now have developed a split campus at ACC. They're now going to be able to allow less students coming in and we also know–if the member from Interlake really cares about agriculture, he knows that a lot of the courses that are given in ACC–a lot of the students there are agriculture students. They take welding because it helps on the farm. They take heavy-duty mechanics because it's required on the farm. They take GPS courses because it's required on the farm, but, Madam Deputy Speaker, they're chasing the students away from ACC at this point in time, spending hundreds of millions of dollars, because they like to spend hundreds of millions of dollars of somebody else's money, but what they're putting into place is an inefficient system.
So that's what I say about this government. They can spend four times as much as what was anticipated and come up with half of the facility that was there in the first place. Now, isn't that good management? Of course it is, for the NDP government, because they spent more money and that's their mark.
Now, very briefly, I'll talk about Greece, okay? The member from the Interlake mentioned Greece, and he's right, we've got as much debt as Greece has on a per-capita basis. We've got a public service out there–he talks about anarchy. He talks about anarchy and people rioting in the streets.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The honourable member's time has expired.
Hon. Peter Bjornson (Minister of Entrepreneurship, Training and Trade): It's a pleasure to rise in the Chamber today to speak to this resolution brought by my colleague from the Interlake.
And contrary to what I heard from the member from Brandon West, I certainly would like to say how impressed I've been as a MLA to work with my neighbour in the Interlake who's been a tremendous advocate for improvements in infrastructure in the Interlake area with highway construction that has paved just about every stretch of highway that needs to be paved in the Interlake.
He's been a tremendous advocate for drainage improvements to assist our farmers that have had very difficult times, obviously, with the unprecedented rain that we've seen. But, you know, it was my colleague from the Interlake who would not let the drainage file go, who worked really hard to ensure that we spent more money in improving the drainage in the Interlake when, I believe, the amount of money that had been allocated to the Interlake was one-third of the money compared to what the previous Tory administration had been providing to Tory constituencies. So members can draw their own conclusions about that.
But I think it also speaks to his vision, as the MLA for the Interlake, to see more opportunities for people in the Interlake and to continue to promote the good work that we have been and continue to do as government, with respect to training opportunities for Manitobans, not only in the major urban centres but throughout rural Manitoba and, quite frankly, the north.
And I do recall the members opposite talking about University College of the North, and now we have, I believe, 17 satellite campuses for University College of the North. And I do believe members opposite had said that that was one of the projects that they would scrap in one of the elections, if I'm not mistaken. They would cancel that project. But, of course, they also said that they were going to take all the money out of the northern infrastructure budget and put that in southern Manitoba.
So their–we know where their loyalties lie with respect to Manitoba. We govern for all Manitoba and we continue to look at opportunities for rural Manitoba, regardless of political stripe, with respect to the training opportunities that we are going to make available for opportunities throughout the province of Manitoba.
You know, I'm somewhat concerned by what the member from Brandon West said about the message that had been given at commencement ceremonies that he had attended. You know, as somebody who taught for 13 years, students would often ask me advice about what they should do. And I would offer that advice at my own peril, because sometimes their parents didn't agree with that advice. And I certainly promoted the trades that were available–for students to pursue careers in the trades when a lot of parents had been focussing on university options for their children. But I'm also the uncle of two apprenticing plumbers and I'm very proud of the work that they are doing, as apprenticeship program in Manitoba has been expanded.
And as the member–or as the Minister of Entrepreneurship, Training and Trade, of course, this budget committed $2 million to improve the number of apprenticeship programs–apprenticeship seats. And we're well on our way to the target of 4,000 more apprenticeship seats and anticipating a 35 percent increase in apprenticeship in Manitoba to create more opportunities and options for our children to pursue a variety of different careers.
And I know members opposite–I recall the Leader of the Opposition saying that he didn't see a need to invest any more money in education because enrollment was flat or declining. Well, I'm glad we're on this side of the House because we see the need to invest in education. We see the need to invest in providing more opportunities for students to succeed. And as a teacher, it was always my position that we should be providing as many opportunities for students to succeed as possible, whether they want to choose a career in professional faculties, go to the university or go into the trades or simply adjust to the work force demands right out of high school, if that was their choice in life. But those are the choices that students would make, and we had to provide them with the tools and opportunities to make those choices.
So if you look at our record and what we've been doing as a government, we've been working together across different departments as a government, to make sure that there are more opportunities for students to succeed and more choices that would be available for them. And we've done so not only in the urban centres, but throughout the province of Manitoba.
Since 2004, for example, the Department of Education, formerly education, citizenship and youth, and Advanced Education and Literacy, and the former competitiveness, training and trade, of course, now ETT, have been involved in a technical‑vocational initiative so that there are programs for both high school and post-secondary students to develop skills in the trades. And the initiative works to improve the image of the trades in the eyes of Manitoba's young people, so that the schools are providing training that will match labour market needs, that will coordinate curriculums across different levels of education and provide funding to improve the quality of equipment used to educate students.
Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, I was very thrilled two weeks ago to attend a graduation ceremony at Stevenson Campus for the Red River community college where–the member was talking about split campuses; it's pretty hard to operate cranes in the parking lot of Red River community college. So sometimes there is the need to take the course to where the course can be offered in a safe environment, and, certainly, the Stevenson Campus is a good example of–[interjection]
What a loud bunch over there, Madam Deputy Speaker.
* (11:30)
The Stevenson Campus is a great example of where the program certainly fit the environment in which the program was offered, and I was very pleased to be part of the largest graduating class of level 3 apprentices in crane operations, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Now, there are a lot of–this example is right here in the city of Winnipeg, but there's a number of examples of trades education in rural Manitoba. And, for example, the member from Brandon West–it's rather fascinating that he's complaining about the $46-million investment for the Len Evans Centre for Trades and Technology, and he's complaining about the investments that we're making at Brandon's community college.
But, you know, I'm quite used to the member from Brandon West just complaining about everything, so I wasn't entirely surprised about that.
But, of course, the relocation–
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The honourable minister has the floor.
Mr. Bjornson: Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. The relocation of Assiniboine Community College and the–[interjection] Oh, that lasted about 12 seconds. Decorum. I appreciate that.
You know, I've said it before and it's worth repeating. You know, people ask me what prepared me best for being in the Chamber and as a teacher, I said, teaching grade 9 for 13 years. That prepared me best. But, again, I feel I have to apologize to grade 9s everywhere, because certainly their behaviour is much better than members opposite. [interjection]
And here he goes again. But, I'll continue because it's the right thing to do. The member opposite seems to think that loud is better, but loud isn't right.
The Len Evans facility is approximately 133,500 square feet, 43 percent larger than the existing Victoria Avenue facility. So the shops, power engineering, communications, civil technician, carpentry, electrical, machine shop, piping and welding are all considerably larger. And the college campus on the north hill has diploma programs and culinary arts, and hospitality administration with facilities that include teaching kitchens, dining rooms, classrooms, offices, hospitality suites and culinary theatre.
There's a list of initiatives that go on and on, and perhaps it's worth putting on the record some of the things that we've been able to do in specific areas. For example, 474 rural and northern vacancies have been filled through a conditional grant program for rural nurses, for example: 82 in Central; 60 in Norman; 57 in Interlake; 57–56 in Burntwood; 56 in Assiniboine; 44, South Eastman; 42, Parkland; 20, North Eastman; 13 in Churchill. And some of the training opportunities that have been offered in partnership with regional health authorities to ensure that they can fill these seats and to fill these positions and to address the needs of Manitobans.
We could talk about rural nurses. We could talk about the University College of the North. We could talk about the initiatives that we brought forward in support of Aboriginal people, and we've committed to providing Aboriginal people with access to adult educational literacy programs, tech-voc skills and post-secondary education. And the government's invested close to $1 million in support of these programs in Peguis and Fisher River First Nation communities.
And the development of University of College of the North, again, an incredible opportunity for northern Manitoba, but an opportunity that would have been lost had the members opposite formed government because they said they would scrap the University College of the North. But through this initiative, it's easier now for northerners and Aboriginal people to access education closer to home.
And now Aboriginal people currently comprise almost 15 percent of active apprentices and, since 1999, the number of Aboriginal people registered in the apprenticeship program has tripled. Educational opportunities closer to home; that's what it means to be a government for all Manitobans and for all parts of Manitoba. And that's what we'll continue to do, and I have to applaud the member from the Interlake for bringing this resolution forward.
And I see that my light is flashing as my time is just about up. I have so much more I could say, Madam Deputy Speaker, about the good things that we are doing, that we'll continue to do, and I know we'll continue to do so as long as we're on this side of the House, as members opposite have said they don't need to invest in education. In fact, they said they wouldn't even win an election based on education.
So, you know, Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm glad that we're on this side of the House, and we'll continue to work on behalf of all Manitobans in the province of Manitoba. Thank you.
Mr. Blaine Pedersen (Carman): To put a few comments on the record for this resolution.
First of all, it's unfortunate that the–we see the–the resolution brought forward by the member for the Interlake and his actions speak volumes about his support for this resolution, and it–you bring a resolution in and you would think you would be supporting it, but we'll leave it there.
I think the priority–there's no doubt the priority of this government is to pass Bill 31 to protect ministers' salaries. It's not about resolutions that come forward here.
Interesting, when you listen to the comments–the member for Interlake (Mr. Nevakshonoff) was talking about the anarchy in Greece. It's important to note that those public displays of anger at the government is actually government workers there, and it was government workers who blocked the rescue workers from saving those–the government workers were the ones who set fire to the banks in Greece–to the bank in Greece, and it was the government workers who stopped the rescue people from being able to come and save them. And that's an unfortunate situation that they have in Greece. And Greece has a lot of problems and many of those problems are mirrored here in Manitoba, and we certainly need to take action to make sure that we don't go as far as what has happened fiscally in Greece.
On a much lighter vein–and I know he will take it in stride, the–when the member from Brandon West was talking about the ACC college, the ag training facility in Brandon, about not being large enough to take in a combine or a four-wheel drive tractor, I sort of suggested to the member from La Verendrye he should take his chain saw out there and make the door bigger and then maybe we could fit them in. They wouldn't have to work on them out in the parking lot then. So maybe he will take the advice and get out there, because I can attest to working on a tractor or a combine out in the open is no fun at all.
But this resolution–the resolution itself is–brings some–bring forth some questions. The second WHEREAS says it must include a strategy. Goodness sakes, you've had 11 years to develop a strategy. What's taking you so long? If you had a strategy at all, you'd be part of the western partnership agreement right now, including all of western Canada, where tradespeople can move between the provinces without problems of regulations between the provinces. If you had any strategy at all, you would be doing–you would have done that. It's not about bringing in a resolution on a Tuesday morning and thinking about what we should do or looking back as to what happened in the past, navel-gazing at the past. It's about planning for the future, and this resolution certainly doesn't do that.
This resolution says it also should make it easier for northerners and Aboriginal people to access education closer to home. Fair enough. Let's look at Wuskwatim, the hydro product–the hydro project right now in northern Manitoba. Great project. We're going to generate more power, more power to sell. A $1.6-billion project–[interjection]–slightly over budget, because it started out about $800 million and now we're projected to be $1.6 billion. The project itself is being–the contractor is from Québec. I don't think that would be part of the western partnership agreement, but we'll see how that one plays out.
But when you look at the apprentice workers on site as of September 30th, 2009–and this is the latest figures that I have and I certainly hope they've improved since–but the latest figures I have, September 30th, 2009, there are a total of 68 apprentice workers on site. And of those 68 apprentice workers on site, 39 of those, or 57 percent, 39 of those apprentice workers are from outside of Manitoba. And I would assume, because it's a Québec company–and I will make the assumption that it's a Québec company–that they're coming in and that they're not–my point is there's 29 apprentice workers working–out of those 68, there's 29 from Manitoba, and of those 29, there are eight Aboriginal and 21 non-Aboriginal. So out of 68–
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I just want to remind all honourable members that we do have loges if they wish to have a conversation. Any members wish to have a conversation, please feel free to take advantage of the loge.
* (11:40)
Mr. Pedersen: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and it's certainly easy to see when you touch a nerve.
It's–out of the 68 workers, then, we only have eight Aboriginal apprentices on site, 12 percent of the total work force, but 39 of those apprentices are from non–or are from outside Manitoba. So you've had 11 years to get ready for this project. You've had 11 years to plan to put into place having apprentice workers, training more apprentices to work on Manitoba projects. This is a Manitoba Hydro project, and yet you can't even find a Manitoba company or–to bid on the contract, to get the contract. You can't fill it with Manitoba apprentices? Even if you hired a Québec company to do the project but you had Manitoba apprentices working on the project, at least that would be an improvement. They've–[interjection] Because they will stay here. They will continue to work here. These Québec workers or the out-of-province workers are going to move on.
If they were a part of the western partnership agreement–if Manitoba was part of the western partnership agreement, they would be able to move back and forth, but, apparently, it's better to be an island in Manitoba and not be part of a vibrant trade agreement that will create jobs, that will be able to make–create opportunities within western Canada.
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The–order. Just want to remind all honourable members that we do have loges.
The honourable member for Carman has the floor.
Mr. Pedersen: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'm sure that when the members from the government stand up to support this resolution, they will also tell us why we're not part of the western partnership agreement, why it's–why they believe it's not a good deal for Manitoba. Obviously, they didn't want to be included in trade agreements with China and Japan as the other three Premiers were. However, they've chosen not to, and we're the island of Manitoba right now with this government.
There is–there are some very interesting things happening. I was on a tour of Red River College here a year ago, and they were showing us–or telling us about their mobile training labs. And this has been a Red River College initiative. This was not a government initiative, as they may claim it may be. This was the Red River College realizing that we needed to–they needed to get training out in the field. They've got some semi-trailers set up where they can–they've created them into labs for training for welding and other skills, electrical training, and they can go out on-site and do this. And this has just been a tremendous boost to the Red River College, and it's enabled them–in spite of this government–it's enabled them to create more apprentices, and that's what it's about.
Madam Deputy Speaker, this resolution is just trying to create praise and make the government feel good, and if it makes them feel good, more power to them. But it does not, it has not created any more apprentices in this province. This resolution does not speak to how to create more apprentices and how they will actually get there. It's a very poorly written resolution, and there is–this government should really sit back and look at their poor record of the last 11 years, how they've failed to take advantage of Manitoba's real advantages, and instead of just trying to make feel-good resolutions they should have been out there doing it. Thank you.
Hon. Nancy Allan (Minister of Education): It certainly is a pleasure to put a few words on the record about vocational-technical training here in Manitoba, and I certainly have quite a bit of material that has evolved after listening to the last speaker.
First of all, I'd just like to mention, Madam Deputy Speaker, that because of our government's work in regards to particularly just the apprenticeship file and all of the good work that has been done by our government in regards to the election commitment that we made to provide 4,000 training seats for apprentices in the province of Manitoba, we know that there is a skilled labour shortage in the trades. We know that because of the work that our government has done with the construction industry.
The Construction Sector Council that is the national organization in Ottawa made a presentation to our government quite a few years ago, and it was because of that presentation and the excellent work that they do with all of the jurisdictions across Canada in providing data in regards to the skilled labour shortages in the trades we were able to take that data and use it as expert advice in regards to how we had to work with the construction industry in regards to developing programs for tradespeople.
My family has been fortunate in regards to working–having somebody in our family who is part of the trades. My daughter, Jessie, is a electrician apprentice. She started when she was 19 years old and she started working on the Hydro tower, and I say to her–many, many times I look at her and I say to her, how does it feel when you're driving by that building to know that you were part of building that building? How exciting is that? She ran the 'dust buct' in that building to the 24th floor when it was 46 below for six weeks a few winters ago, and I have to put on the public record how incredible her journeyperson Eddie is–or Eddie was. Eddie lives beside the MLA for Gimli and they know each other well, and Eddie was just an amazing journeyperson, and I don't think Jessie would be in the trades today if it wasn't for the fact that she had him as a mentor, and that is so incredible, as she is now working third level. She just passed her school portion at Red River and she's working as a third-level electrician, and I'm happy to say there will not be a strike here in the province of Manitoba because they are ratifying their agreement on Sunday–I know the Minister of Labour (Ms. Howard) is happy about that–and she's working at the airport and we look forward to the day. It'll be a big celebration in our household when she's a journeyperson and we're very excited about being–having someone in our family who is part of the construction industry here in the province of Manitoba. I have to say, though, the air in our house is a little blue from time to time. The language on the worksite kind of spills over some days into our household and, you know, it is a little scary from day to day when she comes home and tells stories about what happened on the site, but we just take it as–you know, we take it in stride.
And I want to congratulate, you know, the construction industry and the work that we have done as a government with the construction industry. They have been such an incredible partner to work with as we have developed our technical-vocational strategy. I remember, you know, when I became the Minister of Labour, The Construction Industry Wages Act here in the province of Manitoba had not been touched by the previous government for 12 years. The wage schedules were completely and totally ignored by the previous government, and we put a panel of experts together from the construction industry sector, and it was the heavy construction, the commercial construction, the rural and urban representatives, and they came together and they made recommendations to me as minister, and we now have a Construction Industry Wages Act here in the province of Manitoba that has been brought into the Canadian mainstream and reflects the wages that are being paid, and it helps us to be competitive here in Manitoba in regards to paying people in the construction industry and apprentices what they're worth and what they should be paid so that we can be competitive and we can retain skilled workers here in the province of Manitoba. And making those changes was no easy feat, because, of course, it had been ignored by the previous government throughout their whole mandate, and, you know, this is important to us in regards to our economic strategy here in Manitoba.
* (11:50)
Now, I just have to put on the public record because the MLA for Carman (Mr. Pedersen) mentioned the mobile training lab at Red River College–there is absolutely no question that this is an innovative way of us getting training out to rural Manitoba, and, as my colleague said, you know, this is–this was not paid for by the Easter bunny. This was paid for by the federal-provincial government. We worked in partnership with Red River College–they–to develop this special Mobile Training Lab. And it's just another example of a partnership initiative that we have with one of our partners here in Manitoba to provide training for young people and all across this province in regards to building our skilled trades.
Since 2004, our government has been very active developing a technical-vocational initiative, and we've worked with–around curriculum development. It was first implemented in April, 2004. It was a joint initiative with Advanced Education and Literacy, and then, in 2006, we expanded that intersectoral approach and we started working with Competitiveness, Training and Trade. They joined us and of course they're now ETT. But this joint initiative has been extended from April, 2007 to June, 2011, and we have put a substantial amount of money into that initiative, over $8 million, and it's going to build on the success of the first phase of the work and it creates a cohesive and seamless province-wide, technical-vocational education system across high school and post‑secondary programming to provide students with enhanced program options and career pathways.
And, Madam Deputy Speaker, we believe that this initiative is critical to building opportunities for young people all across this province for technical and vocational training. The six pillars of action remain at the core of the activities and that's obviously to improve the image of technical- vocational careers. You know, years ago I think everybody thought that young people had to go to university. Well, you know, that isn't the case. You know, I was just saying earlier I wish I'd gone into the trades. When I was thinking about what to do for a living, I think I really would have enjoyed it and I think we have to give people the opportunity to not just go to university but to realize that a career in the trades is an exciting opportunity. You get to be part of sometimes a crew of people that build exciting projects here in Manitoba, particularly when you look at, you know, the Hydro tower and how innovative it is from a design and how many awards it's received. You're really providing them with an opportunity to build skills and make a lot of money if you care about that. I know most people don't but–they just want to go to work every day and be happy about what they're doing.
But this is really important to us and we're going to continue to work around a curriculum framework that will provide support to our educational facilities to encourage young people to go into the trades. That's what we believe will really benefit our province and will benefit young people and families all across the province because we know that it isn't just a university. Sometimes it's often people want to do different things in their lives and we need to provide them with as many opportunities as possible so that they can be successful in their careers and participate in our economy. So we will continue to work with our framework documents. We're looking at design drafting, graphic arts, carpentry, culinary arts, the automotive technology, hairstyling and we're also–future projects around welding, electronics and auto body work.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The honourable member's time has expired.
Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): I'm pleased to put some words in debate on this resolution which was–which actually is ill-conceived and not accurate in many respects, and I note that the member from Interlake hasn't been listening, particularly after he gave his debate. I know the member from Brandon West debated this resolution and within about five minutes, the member from Interlake stopped listening to the debate.
That's kind of inappropriate and, considering the fact that this is his resolution, he should be here listening to every word and, of course, if he has anything to say about what we have to say–
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I just want to remind all honourable members, reflecting on the presence or absence of a member is not something we do here in the Chamber.
Mr. Hawranik: Madam Deputy Speaker, I take issue with that. I did not say he was or was not present. I said he wasn't listening to the debate here in this Chamber and that's got nothing to do with presence or absence.
In any event, certainly if it's his resolution, he should be listening to every word that's here in debate, and if he's not listening, that certainly reflects on him in terms of the resolution itself.
Point of Order
Madam Deputy Speaker: The honourable Minister for Innovation, Energy and Mines, on a point of order.
Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Innovation, Energy and Mines): I'm not sure if the member's–it's appropriate for the member to express an opinion and how one can delineate whether someone is listening or not listening. It's an opinion, I think, that's not–it's not really a–I don't think any of us are capable of determining whether someone is listening or not listening.
So I just suggest to the member that he be careful in his–and it's really not appropriate to give that kind of opinion in the House.
Madam Deputy Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on the same point of order.
Mr. Hawranik: On the same point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker, I did not reflect whether he was here or he was not, and, certainly if–in my opinion, he was not listening to the debate, and clearly that's a dispute over the facts.
Madam Deputy Speaker: On the point of order, I will have to rule that this is not a point of order. This is not a point of order.
* * *
Mr. Hawranik: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, but in any event I wanted to put a few words on the record.
Mr. Speaker in the Chair
And I know that obviously this point of order has taken away from some of my debate and I would reflect that–I would hope that wouldn't take away from the 10 minutes that I'm allotted, although obviously it has.
But in any event I do note that one of the WHEREASes within the proposed resolution indicates that it should include a strategy. Obviously, that's an acknowledgment of failure at this government because they've had–as the member from Carman pointed out–they've had 11 years to deal with this issue. And if now they're trying to develop a strategy, obviously they haven't had one in the past and they need to include one now in the future.
So after 11 years, no strategy; that's pretty pathetic, Mr. Speaker. Reality is, as well, I noted the member from Carman indicate about the Wuskwatim construction and what's happening with Manitoba Hydro. And we–in the FIPPA reply in December that we put forward to Manitoba Hydro, it confirmed that over a thousand people were employed at Wuskwatim dam site and almost half of them were actually from out of province.
I think what this indicates, Mr. Speaker, is that Manitoba really isn't training enough tradespeople, especially in the north, and we're not involving Aboriginal people as we should be in the north. We're not engaging them to apply for apprenticeships as we should be. And really that really is an acknowledgment of failure, a demonstration of failure on behalf of this government with respect to our apprenticeship programs.
And I know that the NDP–members opposite are–they're self-proclaimed saviours of the north, Mr. Speaker. And that's absolutely not true, absolutely not true. We have been supportive of the University College of the North, contrary to what members opposite have indicated. In fact, in 1966 under Roblin's government–under Roblin's government–a Progressive Conservative government, a training institute was called the Northern Manitoba Vocational Centre. It was established by the Province. It was established under a Conservative government by Premier Roblin.
What happened in 1969, a short three years later? The government of Manitoba changed under–became an Edward Schreyer government, an NDP government. And all they did was change the name to Keewatin Community College. That's all they did, Mr. Speaker, but then they proceeded to take credit for establishing that institution in northern Manitoba, and continued to say that they were the saviours of northern Manitoba in terms of education, vocational training and so on, but that college was actually established by a Conservative government.
Then in 2004, a number of years later, again renamed the Keewatin Community College, it became the University College of the North. Well, that University College of the North has its roots in a Conservative government, Mr. Speaker, not in an NDP government. The reality is is when the NDP proposed the University College of the North–
Mr. Speaker: Order. When this matter is again before the House, the honourable member for Lac du Bonnet will have five minutes remaining.
The hour now being 12 noon, we will recess and reconvene at 1:30 p.m.